View Full Version : Chp 7:The Practice And Science of Drawing

11-10-2006, 11:00 PM
Chp 7:The Practice And Science of Drawing


Notes for the student:

Let the student therefore begin on the principles adopted in most schools, with outline studies of simple casts or models, and gradually add light and shade.
When he has acquired more proficiency he may approach drawing from the life.

Speed adds a but ..lol..

But, at the same time (and this, as far as I know, is not done anywhere), the student should begin some simple form of mass drawing in paint, simple exercises, 83as is explained later in the chapter on Mass Drawing,

Practical, being at first attempted and criticised solely from the point of view of tone values.

...the student should study simultaneously from these two points of view, beginning with their most extreme positions, that is, bare outline on the one side and on the other side tone masses criticised for their accuracy of values only in the first instance.

If you read through this chp, Speed tells how to do your setup
to help one see to draw outline & mass.

If anyone does this, it be great to see some
photos of your setup and drawings.

11-10-2006, 11:21 PM
Here is the link to:

Chp 8:The Practice And Science of Drawing

Precious Mazie
11-11-2006, 01:42 PM
Short chapter but good! I remember doing mass studies in high school but have not really attempted them since. Always thinking that I had to master drawing first and “muddling through” painting, and now I can see why. So its mass and line drawing in “study simultaneously from these two points of view, beginning with their most extreme positions, that is, bare outline on the one side and on the other side tone masses…”

11-11-2006, 01:54 PM
Hi Perciouse Mazie, do you paint too? Sorry I don't know.
I was thinking of doing the but parts too with paint.
I always use to do the line drawings, then stopped,
Then attempted mass more recent.
Now really need to focus on putting them together when necessary.

Precious Mazie
11-11-2006, 03:16 PM
I have done painting, WC, egg tempera, acrylic, but never have felt any worth the time it took to do them, except when I was doing Master Copies class in Art School. I do mostly Portraits in Graphite. Maybe that’s why I always feel an art student and not a true artist. But even if I never achieve the title “artist” my involvement with art has been the most rewarding time I have spent out side of my family.

11-11-2006, 04:42 PM
I don't know what a true artist would feel like either or how to even classify
what one is. Not to go to far off the topic, I think each painting, picture you make you learn something. That can't be a bad thing.
I think maybe some of the greater artists, their work came before
family. Just like some other occupational titles people strive for at the expense of their families. Nothing wrong with being a student of art and having a rewarding time no matter your age, gender or status.
I'm looking forward to having grandchildren one day so I can teach
them grandmaw's way of painting. lol, I hear people falling off their chair
all over the place, saying what?????

11-11-2006, 08:46 PM
Well after thinking about what an artist is, I think somebody who makes
me see & feel something by what they done to express it to their viewer.
Someone who makes me think, or makes me cry a tear.
Someone who says, hey, I've been there before too, and
your not alone.

Precious Mazie
11-12-2006, 12:17 AM
I think your right. I am in awe of thoes who can create such art. Which is why I am a student of art. I love how looking at art makes me feel. Producing it well... I try and I enjoy the effort.

11-12-2006, 12:13 PM
Me too :)

11-14-2006, 09:01 AM
Nickel - thanks for posting the few paragraphs - I didn't realize he suggested doing both approaches on separate sides of the same drawing. Reading this chapter really clarified for me what I am doing in my drawings and where I want to go with it.

Mazie - you sound like an artist to me, you want I should send you a certificate maybe??? (I am NOT being mean, here)

Precious Mazie
11-14-2006, 07:00 PM
Hi Azulparsnip!,:wave:
Thanks for the vote of confidence but maybe before you make that certificate you wait to see what my drawings look like!::p

Hi Nickel!:wave:
Speaking to posting drawings I tried to post a drawing of mine which was a master copy and I went to your link and followed all the directions but it would not upload my file. You said that it would resize my file but it didn't seem to. I used to have a program where I could resize files but when I got my new computer with XP that program stopped working (I have had it since I had a computer before Windows 98) Anyway is there a program here at WC that would let one resize files? :confused:

Am really enjoying reading HS and participating in this group!

11-14-2006, 07:53 PM
Hi Perciouse Mazie this is a thread on photo stuff here in the new user forum. :

I did download the IrfanViewer, it was easiest for me. I still don't know how to use all it's features, but to resize is pretty easy and it gives you thumbnail views so you can find what you are looking for pretty easy. If it's too hard, I just forget about it when it comes to software. Stuff drives me crazy.
There maybe easier ones out there in internet land but this one works ok for me. http://www.tucows.com/preview/194967 Good luck, I don't know why wc didn't work. I'll see if I can find out.

Nothing from windows works on xp. It's a booger. I still use 98, it's my baby.
I bought a xp for hubby. It's a booger. Errrg......I don't like learning new software. I'm of the nature if it works it works. :)

Precious Mazie
11-14-2006, 11:21 PM
Hi Nickel,
Thank you for all the links I downloaded the Irfan software and resized the picture I want to up load. It was really easy.

My picture is a master copy of and Ingres drawing. His on the the left and mine on the right. I like his drawings better than his paintings my self but then I guess its because I like my drawings better than my paintings. I hears that a lot of programs would not work when I switched to XP but this was the only old program from Windows 3.1 that did not work that I really cared about. What is really funny is that only half of the program is not working. The half that read the pictures from my old digital camera. It was reading .bmp's and jpegs. Then I went on the net to updated driver so it would read all my old camera pictures which now it does but it wont read jpeg's and bmp's now...go figure! Anyway here goes to see if I can now put up my picture which did go with something we were saying earlier. I can't remember which chapter it goes with. Another 50's moment!

11-15-2006, 09:40 AM
great drawing Debby!!!!!

Sam Cree
11-15-2006, 07:42 PM
I don't know what a true artist would feel like either or how to even classify what one is.

I guess I believe that anyone who practices art with some seriousness gets to call themselves an artist. But I think we all have our own standards that we apply to ourselves when deciding if we personally qualify as an "artist." For myself, the standard I set was the ability to render the human figure and head with a fair degree of competency, including achieving a likeness. What I really wanted was to do landscapes, but I had decided that being able to paint a realistic human was the prerequisite. So that's how I found my way to the classical forum! Anyhow, that's what I've been working on.

I was watching Raymond Kinstler's video on painting a head the other day and saw that he recommends painting landscapes as an aid to painting the head and portrait! 'Course, I have seen reclining nudes referred to as "landscapes," but Kinstler is the first I have seen describe a portrait as a landscape.

11-15-2006, 08:11 PM
Sam, this is an interesting concept, portrait as landscape.
What was his reasoning? Learning planes maybe?
I think the biggest trouble I have, after you have the idea
for the picture, putting all the different things you know
you've got to have to have a good picture inside the four walls of
a canvas. I'm working to try and smiplify my procedure to at least
make sure I have the basic parts like the perspective and values.
I do a lot of prep oil sketches, and then the doodles in the sketchbook.
Each has a merit, in the end I'll try to pull those ideas together.
Learn from the mistakes, and move on.
When you paint a landscape do you perfer to add people? or no people?
I like people in a landscape. or animals, or some kind of life.
At least in mine. :D

11-15-2006, 08:23 PM
Precious Mazie, I'm glad the Irfan worked for you!
What a great drawing! You did great!
It's a happy picture :) I'm glad we get to see it!

I'm still holding on to my 5.5 inch floppy drives....anybody remember those?
Plus still have a record player.....:smug: lol
And my 45's :D

I've got to get back to reading this book. I've not adjusted to reading
a book online. Old fashion and proud of it! I like paper.
But so do love having the world at my finger tips via internet.

I'll have to break down and buy the painting one by Speed. I will ask

Hi Azulparsnip :wave:

Anybody out there lurking? Your welcome to come join in. :wave:

Sam Cree
11-15-2006, 08:58 PM
Precious Mazie, I like Ingres' drawings better than his paintings too. I feel the same about Rubens at times, for that matter.

Really nice job on the copy!

Sam Cree
11-15-2006, 09:08 PM
Planes and values, yes, Nickel, and how they all interlock, Kinstler thinks doing plein air helps understand this. Plus, he sees a parallel in how the conditions change outside (weather, light, etc) with the fact that the model usually moves around and even changes her appearance ;-)

My instructor is a strong believer in doing studies for a serious painting. Ingres, I believe was notorious for doing lots of studies and drawings.

I do like people to be in landscapes, or at least evidence of them, but then I like paintings to tell a story. For the moment, though, I'm not putting them in, just trying to understand how to get accross the landscape itself.

I am setting up two largish landscapes, twenty four by thirty six", one will have dogs in it, the other people. Will do studies for both, have already done one study.

Precious Mazie
11-15-2006, 09:59 PM
Hi Sam, :wave:

Was Kinstler referring to a portrait as a landscape or saying that doing landscape would improve your ability to do portrait? I guess I don't see the correlation but I do know that when I get frustrated with my portraits if I step away and go do something else I can come back with fresh eyes. Landscapes though I love to look at them, I am not that interested in drawing them. Maybe because Landscapes look better painted and I do mostly graphite drawing. Maybe that is what HS was talking about, having to appreciate your subject to paint or draw it well. I can see a reclining nude being referred to as a landscape. Was Kinstler more specific as to why a landscape is an aid to doing heads?

I still think of my self as an art student. If fact that was why I wanted to post that drawing. My best work was in my Master Copies class which makes me a "copiest".
I did learn a lot from coping Master Works but I feel caught in the technical part and struggling to find the creativity part.:confused:


Sam Cree
11-15-2006, 10:58 PM
Hi Sam, :wave:

Was Kinstler referring to a portrait as a landscape or saying that doing landscape would improve your ability to do portrait?

Hi Debby,

He said that doing landscapes was very helpful to learning how to do portraits, then said that portraits were the same as landscapes without elaborating. However my instructor always says something similar, that it doesn't matter what you are drawing or painting, it is all the same, if you can do one thing, you should be able to do it all, since drawing and painting are the same regardless of subject. 'Course he can do it all, so easy to say...but I agree with the sentiment.

I do master copies at times on my own, have done a couple quick paintings recently after some of Hals' faces. It's lots of fun, and I feel like I learn a lot. I borrowed a book of Dean Cornwell paintings and think I'll do a couple copies of them. When I copy a painting I don't try to do the whole thing in detail, but just get the drawing right, painting without refining too much, catching the generalities, just trying to understand what the artist did. It's enjoyable.

Harold Speed did recommend that while the student is learning the technical part during lessons, at home he should be doing creative stuff and letting himself go. I believe that Speed, while stressing the need to master the technical, had a great fear that the creative side would atrophy. I can't remember whether we already covered this on one of the threads, my apologies if we did.

11-16-2006, 01:22 PM
I think that is a legit fear....especially when the creative side of the person is not really well groomed, and strong.....I am so tempted to just do stuff and not delve inside and draw upon what I have

11-16-2006, 02:39 PM
Hals is a good one to study to relieve one of
pick pick pick.....not anyone here, but I have seen pickers.

I hope to never have atrophy.
Though sometimes I do get numb.

Sam Cree
11-16-2006, 03:31 PM
I think that is a legit fear....especially when the creative side of the person is not really well groomed, and strong.....I am so tempted to just do stuff and not delve inside and draw upon what I have

I don't suppose much delving is even required, I think just drawing or painting what you enjoy, what rings your bell, doing that is what brings out the "creative" side. It doesn't have to be an earthshaking profound work that shows everyone the meaning of life, it can just be a simple everyday subject, whether a child's face, or even some prosaic object that's laying around the house. The "still, small voice," so to speak.