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M Douglas
10-02-2006, 08:03 PM
Ok very little annoys me, it takes alot to get my back up but I have to admit I was choked at Violets beautiful pastel painting being put in with the alternative media choices. I'm thrilled that she won but find it irritating that they do not include pastel with oils, acrylics, and watercolor. It seems to me that often the pastel artist is overlooked.

It also annoys me when people call painting with pastels coloring :mad: oh oh now i'm going to go on a tangent:lol: Does this sort of thing bother anyone else? Or am I just overly sensitive? :o

Melodie

Bringer
10-02-2006, 08:09 PM
Hi,

I am an artist.
Was that a good answer ? :-)

Kind regards,

Josť

nana b
10-02-2006, 08:18 PM
Hi,

I am an artist.
Was that a good answer ? :-)

Kind regards,

Josť

Jose', I guess you will have to make your "answer" clearer for me.

nana b

Tressa
10-02-2006, 08:46 PM
Melodie, there are quite a few threads in the Debate Forum on this issue, and one just recently, and it does tend to be a bit annoying...I had a few things to say:evil:
As to the show, the category is interesting...at least it was not placed in "drawing"....I think it will take some lobbying to get this issue resolved, and it has come a long way, but we still need to be sure we are recognized as "painters". I recently put some interesting facts up in the DF on pricing when someone made the comment of certain mediums being more desirable.
Recently one of Mary Cassatt's paintings stopped bidding at 2.6 mil, one sold for 688,000.00 , a Degas for 3 million, a Willaim Chase for 2.099 mil
and a Rosalba Carriera for 621,750.00.all at Sotheby's.... uh... I think it's a painting:D :D
Also most museums place pastels in the "painting" catagory. Boston Museum and the Met are two off the top of my head.

Devil's advocate here though, it could be simply not enough pastelists entered to have a seperate category since it was an all medium show.

I'm real glad she won though...
Tres

Bringer
10-02-2006, 09:02 PM
Hi Nana,

What I meant is that I care about how a work affects me aestethically.
It doesn't matter to me what medium is or what opinion others have of that medium.

Kindest regards,

Josť

scall0way
10-02-2006, 09:12 PM
Ok very little annoys me, it takes alot to get my back up but I have to admit I was choked at Violets beautiful pastel painting being put in with the alternative media choices. I'm thrilled that she won but find it irritating that they do not include pastel with oils, acrylics, and watercolor. It seems to me that often the pastel artist is overlooked.

I agree 100% which was why I even had to make a comment in Violet's thread. I also found it very aggravating to see pastel essentially lumped as "other". :(

Kathryn Wilson
10-02-2006, 09:42 PM
It has continued to amaze me the "discrimination" that some artists put upon other artists. We continually run into this with oil pastels - which are viewed very poorly by soft pastel organizations. Don't get me going on this!

Then we have the oil painters who think they are god's gift to earth and all other mediums are not worth noting. Again, don't get me going.

I do realize I am lumping groups together, but if you don't speak up within your group, then you are allowing discrimination.

M Douglas
10-03-2006, 03:41 AM
Thanks everyone, nice to know i'm not the only one who gets annoyed. I suppose alot of it is due to lack of understanding and its up to us as artists to inform and educate people.

Kat i'm amazed also that other artists would discriminate but I would also guess that they are the type that think they are always right too lol.

Melodie

Tressa
10-03-2006, 07:37 AM
I personally think that the discrimination comes mainly within the art community, and some patrons base their views upon the opinions of certain "art-snobs". And as Kat said, there are a LOT of purists out there who think that oil paint has been "blessed by the gods". I agree with Jose. If a painting moves a person, the medium should be unimportant.
Tres

scall0way
10-03-2006, 10:28 AM
It has continued to amaze me the "discrimination" that some artists put upon other artists. We continually run into this with oil pastels - which are viewed very poorly by soft pastel organizations. Don't get me going on this!

Very true. I've posted a few times recently about the new Pastel Society of NJ, and their upcoming first juried show. And sure enough, the show prospectus says "Soft pastels only, no oil pastels". I was quite upset to see this, and it's something I plan to ask about next time I have a chance. I figure I wore out all my questions at the meeting on Sunday because I think I asked more than all the other 50 people put together. :D

Kathryn Wilson
10-03-2006, 11:00 AM
I don't have a problem with societies if they decide they just can't handle oil pastels - especially if they find judges just aren't up to snuff on oil pastel techniques.

But when I hear the derrogatory remarks made about oil pastels within that context, then I get very upset. The oil pastel medium is a difficult medium to learn and handle the techniques properly and the artists that are breaking new ground with this medium need encouragement, not derision.

Sorry about hijacking this thread - but maybe this will make people stop to think before they categorize any medium into a less than desirable material.

PeggyB
10-03-2006, 02:22 PM
I don't have a problem with societies if they decide they just can't handle oil pastels - especially if they find judges just aren't up to snuff on oil pastel techniques.

But when I hear the derrogatory remarks made about oil pastels within that context, then I get very upset. The oil pastel medium is a difficult medium to learn and handle the techniques properly and the artists that are breaking new ground with this medium need encouragement, not derision.

The issue of how to catagorize pastels - soft or oil - has been on going since before I began using them. Many societies have worked tirelessly over many years in their individual regions to educate the public, but other artists and art organizations sometimes just won't budge from the antiquated notion that "pastels" belong in the "other or drawing" catagory. Personally, I refuse to enter such competitions, but that's probably not the way to educate either... To me, a pastel can be in either a drawing or painting catagory if catagories are even necessary. It depends entirely upon the method used and final appearance of the work. i.e. pastel covered surface = painting. a lot of surface showing and line work = drawing.

As for pastel v oil pastel well they are entirely different mediums, and therefore I don't see why they should be judged together in a single medium competition. Just because they both happen to be in stick form and both contain the word "pastel" doesn't mean they are the same product. Oil bars are also in stick form. Should they be included? Pastel pencils, colored pencils and watercolor pencils are all in pencil form. Should they all be included? Debbie, I wouldn't waste my time bringing this topic up to the society. The reason the prospectus says, "no oil pastels" is because some artists do continue to think of them as the same medium, and that statement makes it easier for the society to not have to reject something entered that is an oil pastel.

Kat, I absolutely agree with you that oil pastelists have a harder row to hoe when it comes to acceptance, and that is something we are going to have to fight through the oil pastel societies. Slowly, regions will begin to have enough people working in oil pastel that they can form societies just as the pastelist did over the last 30 years. Oil pastel is where soft pastel was about 30/40 years ago. Soft pastel is where watercolor was about 30/40 years ago. It is through hard work and public exposure that each medium begins to receive acceptance both by other artists and the public. Frankly, I don't see why oil pastelist would even want to confuse the public with thinking op should be with pastel. It is a beautiful medium all unto itself, and there are plenty of very good painters who use both of them. i.e. Martha Savage for instance.


Peggy

prettytulips
10-03-2006, 02:32 PM
Then we have the oil painters who think they are god's gift to earth and all other mediums are not worth noting. Again, don't get me going.



OMG, your to funny. Thats the reason I don't post anymore in the oil forum. The ego's and arrogance is overwhleming and the sacrasm! Wow!

There are some great people in the oil forum, but you have to be able to stomach the egotistical poison coming from those who just want to argue in that forum every now and then. Many think they are the final last word to just about everything.:lol:

Kathryn Wilson
10-03-2006, 03:20 PM
Frankly, I don't see why oil pastelist would even want to confuse the public with thinking op should be with pastel. It is a beautiful medium all unto itself, and there are plenty of very good painters who use both of them. i.e. Martha Savage for instance.

Peggy

I totally agree - oil pastels are a beautiful medium and should be recognized for what it is. BUT, when artists who employ other mediums make derrogatory remarks about oil pastels without knowing a single them about the medium, that's where I draw the line.

Unless I am mistaken, I don't believe Marsha uses OP's - rather it is Carly that does, as well as myself. Three of the paintings in my signature line are OP's and I show them proudly along with my soft pastel paintings.

PeggyB
10-03-2006, 03:27 PM
IUnless I am mistaken, I don't believe Marsha uses OP's - rather it is Carly that does, as well as myself. Three of the paintings in my signature line are OP's and I show them proudly along with my soft pastel paintings.

hmmm - coulda sworn it was Marsha, but if anyone on WC other than the artists would know it would be you Kat - color my face :o. Carly is certainly someone who does beautiful work in both mediums, as do you. I'm still learning the medium. It is fun to "smoosh" those brilliant colors around - totally different from the "other" pastel. :lol:

Peggy

K Taylor-Green
10-03-2006, 04:01 PM
It ticks me off, as well. Every October I enter four pieces (all that is allowed in each catagory) in the Foothills Art show sponsored by the Southern Ohio Arts Council. Pastels, colored pencils, and graphite are lumped together as one catagory. I did place an Honorable Mention one year, but I am up against colored pencil artists like Ceceil Baird and Jean Mallicoat, both who have Signature status in the Colored Pencil Society of America. Both happen to be friends of mine, too, as well as fellow Art Guild members. So they know how I feel! Guess it will all depend on the judge.

And tell me this. If an artist does a line drawing in thinned oil paint, isn't it a drawing? Hmmmm?

PeggyB
10-03-2006, 04:44 PM
And tell me this. If an artist does a line drawing in thinned oil paint, isn't it a drawing? Hmmmm?

Ohhh Wicked Kate, wicked!:evil: I love it. Something that preplexes me is why a supposedly professional organization of mixed mediums would find a need to have catagories at all. A painting that is good is good no matter what medium it is worked in or what technique is used. Having said that, I don't think any one judge would be able to fairly jury such a show because not many have enough knowledge of all mediums or styles of painting. That's where multiple judges are needed so long as they fairly represent many different mediums and styles of painting. I know one west coast organization that has 3 jurors for their competitions. They are all seated with an electronic "vote box" in hand. The show chairperson puts each slide up on a large screen for about 10 seconds, and the jurors press either a red or green button that calculates the votes. The judges aren't allowed to speak to one anyone during this time. If more paintings get a green vote than can be shown at the venue, then they go through those paintings again, and again, and again... until they have the right number. I entered that show once, and later learned my painting had to go through 3 rounds of votes before they were finished choosing just over 100 paintings. I felt very honored to be included with a pastel, and there were no categories in this multi medium competition.

Peggy

Kathryn Wilson
10-03-2006, 05:42 PM
Boy, 10 seconds to evaluate a painting?

M Douglas
10-03-2006, 06:44 PM
10 seconds is a pretty short length of time.....no time to let it grow on you lol. But if you are looking at hundreds of slides you would need to keep it short to allow for time.


Melodie

Deborah Secor
10-09-2006, 04:46 PM
I somehow missed this thread last week, but it's never too late--right? :)

I found that having my pastels mixed in with all the 'drawings' in competitions just made my work shine, shine, shine! It wasn't showing against much colored pencil work, only black and white media, so the colors made it stand out. In a process where the judges have so little time to respond, the color got me into the money every time! So there were times when I liked being included in the drawing category.

However, we began our pastel society back in 1989 in part because we were fed up with the reputation pastels had for being only a cheap, quick layout used before making a 'real' painting in oils! Excuse me? :confused: We went to battle with show organizers to have pastels named as its own category, we started putting on exclusively pastel shows (yep--we exclude OPs for the reasons Peggy mentioned above, though we didn't know anyone working in OPs as a medium at the time, so it wasn't a big issue), and started talking up our medium at all the fairs and shows we went to. I remember going to the first big IAPS convention in Denver in 1996 (I think), and being thrilled to meet with so many others working in the medium, not to mention talking to the vendors and asking for products we wanted! (More darks, at the time.)

Lately around here I've noticed the kinds of shows Peggy mentioned, where they're simply juried by slides rather than divided into media categories. I hate judging a show where they want me to give awards in categories. It seems invariably there's a wealth of credible work in one medium and I have to give inferior work a ribbon because "we only have three for pastels, three for oils, three for watercolor" or whatever...! I can't tell you how often I've heard them say the ribbon already has the medium listed on it. Duh! So, think here gals, I say, how about ribbons that you can allow your JUDGE to award? Now there's a thought, pay me to give credible awards to those who deserve them. If everyone who wins is working in pastel, maybe the watercolorists need to snap to attention! (I know, they worry that the judge will be accused of being prejudiced. Well, I'll give a ribbon to somebody working in MUSTARD if the painting is superior! They do pay us for our opinion, after all! No one comes without prejudices, either, but that goes without saying...)

Okay, I'm now stepping quietly and meekly off my little soap box... Thanks for the intersting discussion. Glad there's no debate here!

Deborah

Katherine T
10-09-2006, 09:08 PM
Maybe we should just have two categories - stick art and brush art? ;):evil:

A quick (but related) aside - This year I sat through the slideshow that the Coloured Pencil Society of America does for its members at its convention each year. There were I think about 8 carousels holding 781 slides - and I doubt if any was up for more than 10 seconds - and it was a looooooooooong evening - and selection for the final cut is by slide only.

It was extremely educational in relation to how well different types of artwork play as slide entries. For anybody who submits work by slide to competitions/exhibitions - irrespective of the medium you use - you might be interested in the conclusions that I came to and which are set out in this blog post "CPSA entries to the 2006 exhibition (http://makingamark.blogspot.com/2006/08/cpsa-entries-to-2006-annual-exhibition.html)". I've now got it up on my wall!

sundiver
10-09-2006, 09:41 PM
As for pastel v oil pastel well they are entirely different mediums, and therefore I don't see why they should be judged together in a single medium competition.

some artists do continue to think of them as the same medium,
Peggy

That would be me. I often use them together, in the same painting and in the same manner. I set them both out and reach for whichever stick suits my needs at the moment. Later when looking at the painting I can't see any difference between the two and can't always remember which particular stroke was which.

Media categories can get very complicated and I find it frustrating sometimes. Not that I have an answer!

Alecto
07-20-2007, 02:03 PM
I found that having my pastels mixed in with all the 'drawings' in competitions just made my work shine, shine, shine! It wasn't showing against much colored pencil work, only black and white media, so the colors made it stand out.

Somewhere, on some forum, graphite and charcoal artists are grumbling about how unfair it is that they got lumped in with pastels in their last show. :cat:

Deborah Secor
07-20-2007, 02:13 PM
It is unfair! Pastels are a painting medium with all of the considerations of color and technique that any painter uses, not a solely value-oriented, line-driven medium as is graphite or charcoal (although I appreciate greatly that all of us have overlapping areas such as compositin, etc.) Tell them to lobby for a drawing category that doesn't include COLOR. I have a friend who does colored pencil work that looks like oils...I wouldn't lump it in with graphite and charcoal either!

As Wendy said above: Media categories can get very complicated and I find it frustrating sometimes. Not that I have an answer! Nor do I have an answer, but we can continue to discuss things! :D

Deborah

Alecto
07-20-2007, 02:23 PM
It is unfair!

I agree! Just trying to inject a little levity into an otherwise very frustrating subject. My apologies if my humor was ill-timed and/or unappreciated.

Deborah Secor
07-20-2007, 02:30 PM
:lol: No problem with me! I just agree heartily. Maybe too heartily? I didn't mean to seem to be overreacting either. I laughed when I read what you said, but the truth is it contains a seed of information that affects us all...

:wave:
Deborah