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artist007
09-08-2006, 08:50 PM
Hi Ya'll,

I started this acrylic for aclass demo 2 weeks ago.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Sep-2006/74161-8-31-06WIP2.jpg
...this was done in 3 hours.


The finished painting - for the most part, but the rocks are too round...
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Sep-2006/74161-rocksstream.jpg
and need more work - I did the rest in my studio. I wish the images I uploaded here in WC didn't loose their quality in the uploading process....Frustrating.

John:wave:

objectivistartist
09-08-2006, 09:16 PM
LOL - Jus call it "Meatball Glen" an move to another one............. :lol:
[besides, river rocks are rounded anyway, from the 'molding' by the water...]

Robert

www.visioneerwindows.blogspot.com

artist007
09-08-2006, 10:54 PM
Real Name:Robert Malcom
Biography:retired baker living on disability - now being artist/philosopher
Occupation: spiritual visualizer

Uh huh....what the hell is a "spiritual visualizer"? Sounds like some "newage" crap. Glad you like my painting, Robert.

idcrisis55
09-09-2006, 08:26 AM
Hi John, I like the lighting you have in your painting a lot and your water. As you said, the rocks are all round, but IMHO it is that they are mostly the same size. You didn't ask for critiques or comments so was hesitant in mentioning that. I hope you don't mind that I did.

Ann

dreamz
09-09-2006, 08:30 AM
I like the brightness of the sky and background

LarrySeiler
09-09-2006, 10:33 AM
didn't see a line inviting comments or critiques either...and as a landscape painter I might have made a few. I won't offer such here...but as a friendly reminder to you John, or anyone else lurking along here if in ever posting a thread one might wish to receive constructive thoughts...it would help give members some sense of feeling free to go ahead by simply including something like "C&C welcome"

and so forth...

congrads on your opportunity to demo, that's always fun... ! :)

artist007
09-09-2006, 10:54 AM
Thanks for your comments Ann, Doc and Larry - I value each of your comments, ........

Yea, your right, Larry - I usually add that but this time I forgot. I would like your comments very much. I've read some of your demos and think you have valuable info for anyone on this forum.

Thanks Again,
John

artist007
09-09-2006, 11:02 AM
Larry, this question doesn't pertain to my painting above, but I'm gearing up for some plein-air painting and was wondering if you used oils or acrylics and why. Also what is your ground - canvas or primed masonite, and what size - 12x16,etc? If you have a thread for this info you can just point me to a link.

John

artist007
09-09-2006, 11:17 AM
Larry,
I just read your plein air Blog - You have some beautiful work on it. Oil on stretched linen and canvas both, and 8x10, 12x16, and 11x14 right? Do you preferr oils because acrylics dry too fast on location? I envy your travels - especially Alaska - I'd love to do that.

John

LarrySeiler
09-09-2006, 12:12 PM
Hi John...lots of questions...:D I'll try to answer them here.

I just finished with a lengthy structured critique of an artist seeking a critique on her waterfalls effort using a photograph...

though your style is quite different, there are some things said there that are general things to store in mind for one that wishes to paint landscapes better. The kind of things I write often and emphasize in my book, and anything up and coming...timeless things....here's that thread-

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=369941

My blogspot...John, was first started this past January when light so quickly is gone by one's work day...4pm very often, and so wanting yet to paint from life and after near 30 years of painting wanted to yet believe I too can grow, learn..challenged myself to do a one a day postcard size painting, giving myself about one hour's time. If you go back and check some of those months archives (found on the right side of the blogspot page and down) you'll see how I came to find and make art from the most mundane and simple things.

From there...I began to explore the possibilities of interesting backgrounds to support the subject. Eventually coming to create undertones, and complementary color underpaintings in turps to finish alla prima over the top of.

This led me to enthusiastically read the thoughts and teachings of Edgar Payne and Emile A. Gruppe.

I have a thread in my partner forum showing my experimentations with reddish undertones, which Gruppe advised his students for gaining control over the greens of nature. I started off experimenting that for that reason...but then somewhat accidentally fell to discover that something about the reddish undertoning gave color in general a particular luminosity or spark of energy one experiences in life but is so so difficult to imitate with paint.

As one that paints from life often....surrounded by a gazillion greens in northern Wisconsin, and enjoying the lush greens of Alaska, I found the reddish undertoning immensely valuable and sorta helped this ole dog rediscover himself. It is often difficult to find additional growth after many years, and such comes in small increments or baby steps, hardly perceptible... but this stuff from Payne and Gruppe I feel has opened a big chapter for my painting life..

Still...again, something about the undertone in general helps all the colors of nature's light...

Then reading recently more thoughts from Gruppe...and Edgar Paynes insistence that good paintings have what he called a color "vibration"...I kinda got it. That is...what is causing that spark that is telling of a work painting from a lifeless photo or gives the feeling it must have been painted from life.

Gruppe most often...if not always (to my understanding) painted the opposite or complementary color first to the mass or area of the canvas that he would then paint over. So...an orange to a mass that would in the finished painting appear blue....a red...where green, and so forth.

He would allow a bit of that color laid down first to appear here and there in small bits, which would cause a contrast.

Painting is a process of compare and contrast. We realize how dark a color needs to be by placing it down next to other colors possessing an assigned value. If it doesn't come off right...we tweak it. We know a color to feel warm by how cool colors around it are...and so forth.

By allowing a bit of the complement to poke thru even near imperceptibly, it creates a contrast that causes excitement. It feels brighter...more believable.

So...while my larger artist website shows my art in general and about me, the blogspot has been interesting because of its nature as a blog to share near daily...and there have been those that have followed along (letting me know) that they are there learning with me. Its been an interesting ride the past half-year or so to say the least.

I paint on a number of surfaces...linen stretched, linen adhered to a panel such as hardboard or masonite...canvas stretched/or glued to board...and quite often primed and gessoed board itself.

For my time in Alaska...I painted about 20 works while teaching, of those I brought 17 of them home. The canvas works I blessed others with to those that had helped my stay there, sold one...

I add about 1 tablespoon or more of SYNCO #FFF pumice powder to one cup of acrylic gesso...to cover my boards, which gives a nice absorbtive gritty surface to receive paint.

I did many of those paintings in oils...and used a copal medium, and believe it or not...dry to touch such that I was able to pack those babies in a backpack and bring on the plane as my carry on. In fact, the last oil I did was two days before departing..so that says something about pumice and Garrett's copal medium.

I did a number of acrylics while there, including the one I sold on canvas. Of course it goes without saying that acrylics are a convenient thing to paint with when flying...but I was there to teach oils, acrylics, pastel and watercolor.

I painted with acrylics professionally as a wildlife artist for near 20 years... and part of my current fascination with oils is simply that acrylics became second nature and very little of a challenge. I find oils demanding things of me that is bringing out a painter mindset that my ease and familiarity with acrylics after so long did not.

As for imitating the colors of nature...Edgar Payne has said that nature's light is perhaps 2,000 to 3,000 times more intense than what pigment can imitate. I guess I find oils oil content and thickness able to physically capture and contain a room's light...offering a glow to the color that other pigments don't have. I'll add Liquitex Extender gel medium to my acrylics that gives me a pretty good impasto effect, and on canvas some have been fooled to think I used oil. However...it does not have this light holding property that oil has, and so will appear a bit flatter and more plastic.

Still...a painting is judged relative to its own borders, a self-contained world...and the difference is not quickly known unless an acrylic painting, for example...is hung next to a number of oils.

My smaller sizes...6"x8" to 12"x 16" is common for painters painting on location for our time with available light is often very limited. A smaller window of opportunity. I have done a few larger works on location...18"x 24" and 18" x 36"...and in time I can see twice that size.

hope that answers some questions, John...

Now a couple quick things as regards your painting here.

I am personally uncomfortable as a painter setting up my composition to even remotely feel as symmetrical in pictoral balance. That is...where a sense of a dividing line could go down the middle and it seems there is near equal weight on both sides.

I am an art instructor...so I am aware of histories of art, thoughts and so forth in the fine arts world, and to be perfectly honest...an artist somewhat shoots themselves in the foot to arrange their painting symmetrically.

Thing back to the Byzantine ages where altar pieces places saints with halos one on top the other...six saints on one side...six on the other. Perhaps the madona as the largest figure, with two smaller figures to each of her sides. Same exact visual weight on both sides.

Ever since those times...writers of art criticism have referred to such arrangement of balance as "formal" balance as the safe easy to attain most assured way to attain balance, thus often referred to as "trite"...or the "obvious solution"...and worse..."boring"...

always better to lure the eye into a work that visually balances, but it is not easily understood why. In this age of bombardment of images...those works that work simply and for simple reasons are quickly passed by and put out of mind. The artist is required to seek greater variation and intrigue to stand out.

You have your painting divided nearly straight down the middle, John...nearly the same amount of rocks on both sides...nearly the same sizes, the same shapes. The light trails from the distance straight down the water in the center of the painting with an equal amount of trees on both sides, the shoreline nearly having the same diagonal mass.

So compositionally you begin with what would be considered a visual deficit. Not wanting to be mean...but that is how it is, and it would be good in the future to avoid it like the plague.

also...variation is important for intrigue, and avoid things like making all rocks appear the same size...

when you read my comments to "Ladyred"...you'll understand what I mentioned by John F. Carlson's knowledge and teaching...

Rarely (it does happen where shadows are in the foreground) but very rarely will color appear as warm, as bright or intense in the distance versus the foreground.

Your trees in the midground on the right have edges that are as tight, sharp as the trees in the foreground and understand that an edge reads as a detail.

If I hold my hand up to you from three feet away you'll easily see the creases of my palm...but if I hold it up 100 yards away and you suggest as an artist that the creases can still be seen, then imagine what you will have to do with EVERY detail between that hand 100 yards away and the viewer's eye to pull off good depth illusion!

So...softening edges of contours and masses going back is important to effectively suggest depth.

Hope that helps...
take care....

Larry

artist007
09-09-2006, 02:16 PM
Larry,
WHEW ! First of all, thanks for the lengthty reply - I know you put a lot of thought and time doing it. I'm going to read over your info. a few times to absord it<LOL> and then maybe I can give you an intellegent answer<G>.
Thanks again for the all the good information and your "constructive and considerate comments" about mt painting.

You're the Man!
John

LarrySeiler
09-09-2006, 03:40 PM
:thumbsup: ;)

objectivistartist
09-09-2006, 06:39 PM
For info on spiritual visualizing, see - www.thespiritualvisualizer.blogspot.com

Robert

www.visioneerwindows.blogspot.com
www.thespiritualvisualizer.blogspot.com

dreamz
09-09-2006, 10:41 PM
Larry's comments are always chock full of information and I need to keep going back and glean another small scrap. A definate asset to this forum

artist007
09-10-2006, 01:41 AM
Robert,
I get my "spiritual visualizing" form the Bible.
For info on my "near-death experience", see -www.johnhelmsgallery.com/mynde.htm

John

artist007
09-10-2006, 02:04 AM
larry,
I agree with you on some points, but not on others. This painting was from an acrylic book and my students wanted to paint it, so I did - I make no apologies for it, however you have some valid points and I shall take them to heart. At the beginning of this thread I mentioned that the rocks were too round and needed some more work - I see what you meant by the overall painting being too symetrical however.
Thanks for your comments on plein air painting - I don't quite inderstand what you meant by "reddish undertones"....

I have a thread in my partner forum showing my experimentations with reddish undertones, which Gruppe advised his students for gaining control over the greens of nature. I started off experimenting that for that reason...but then somewhat accidentally fell to discover that something about the reddish undertoning gave color in general a particular luminosity or spark of energy one experiences in life but is so so difficult to imitate with paint.

What color of "red" are you referring to or is it mixed with another color before you put it on as an undetone?

John
www.johnhelmsgallery.com

LarrySeiler
09-10-2006, 02:01 PM
hey John...no biggy. There has to be room for disagreement in art, or we'd have a pretty boring everything-looks-the-same world right?

From my standpoint of painting landscapes and those I look to as mentors preparing the ground before me...if this is how your landscape book presented it, it would not have appealed to my eye from the beginning for all the said reasons I gave.

Not sure what student age you are working with...I teach K-12 art as my day job in a small northwoods logging community, but I also teach adults in painter's workshops. As a small school...we've received some various grants, and two years ago I ordered a dozen Guerrilla pochade boxes and tripods, so I could take kids outdoors every so often to paint. A real kick for them as it connects them immediately to the time honored traditions and histories of America's earlier painters.

ON the reddish undertones...sorry John...thought maybe I provided some links to this. In my partner forum I have several threads where I talk about, show my experimentations and so forth. More easily suited with oils, I have done a number of plein air paintings with acrylics doing a reddish undertone first.

Here was one I did as a demo for my students in Juneau Alaska painted on a drizzly misty day at the site of Alaska's first gold mine, now a museum. The caretakers of that mine/museum bought this from me...

16"x 20" acrylic....
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Sep-2006/532-lastchance_goldminewc.jpg

note in this work that I have allowed the reddish undertone here and there to make its presence known...how it has unified the whole work, pulling it together...AND controlled the greens. Of course...you can bring the painting as far in finishing as you wish, allowing more or much less red to be seen or felt.

But...on sunfilled days what the reddish undertones do to imitate the sparkle of nature's light is really interesting. Check out these two threads-

Exerimenting with Gruppe Red undertones-http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=345248

Summary of Various Palette Strategies-
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=363803

take care

artist007
09-10-2006, 07:43 PM
Hey Larry,

Not sure what student age you are working with...I teach K-12 art as my day job in a small northwoods logging community, but I also teach adults in painter's workshops. As a small school...we've received some various grants, and two years ago I ordered a dozen Guerrilla pochade boxes and tripods, so I could take kids outdoors every so often to paint. A real kick for them as it connects them immediately to the time honored traditions and histories of America's earlier painters.
How blessed you are to be living and working where you do! I would love to live in a small town like yours near the mountains. I teach adults at an arts and craft store in a large city. The most my small classroon will hold is 6 people max. I have a lot of repeat students in my watercolor, oil, and acrylic classes.

Your reddish undertone technique for greens is interesting - I checked out your link about it and will have to try it out.

John