Pastel safety... Is this nuts???

[dany]

Hi everybody! I recently got a gorgeous new set of Schminke soft pastels, but my husband has been doing internet research about the safety of the Schminkes and soft pastels in general, and he won't let me use them in the house!!! I've been banished to our garage, where I have to wear a mask while painting and then completely change my clothes before coming back inside. Oh, and I have to clean the floor with windex where I thumped my board. Now, I'm not really heavy-handed with the pastels, so the dust I create is minimal. I mean, I hold my board on my lap, and you can see any dust on my clothes when I'm done.

My husband loves me and says he doesn't want me to poison myself of the kids, which is great-- I agree. But I feel like cleaning the garage floor is going a bit overboard. What do you all think? I'm going to be getting pretty cold in the garage in a few months..... :(

[khourianya]

I'd say it is a bit of overkill. I use my pastels in our basement (where my studio is), without gloves or a mask. I have an air filter running while I work and for about an hour or so afterwards. I also keep baby wipes nearby and wipe my hands often.

I feel safe using them. Especially since we are talking that the high quality pastels are mostly pigment bound with minimal binder.

Alot of the pastel manufacturers have gotten away from using the highly toxic pigments in their pastels anyway.

I'd tell your husband that if he expects you to work in the garage, the least he could do is make it habitable for all seasons. Get him to install insulation and a heater and proper lighting and ventillation - and then you add a lock on the door and pastel to your hearts content....the way you want to. I think the odds of you poisoning yourself and your children is slim.

[KJSCL]

Pastel safety... Is this nuts???

In a word - YES!

[Kathryn Wilson]

Threaten him with turpentine and linseed oil - :) I would say this is overkill - there are ways to take care of the dust. Get yourself a nice tabletop easel so you won't have to hold it in your lap and get dust all over you; next, put some kind of dust catcher under the edge of the easel to catch the dust as it falls down off the paper; use an air filter; and bang your board outside.

[Deborah Secor]

Yes, I think his attitude is overkill. Is he afraid of dirt? That's really all pastel is anyway. Yes, be sensitive and respectful of his fears. Keep him away from extremists like the 'industrial hygenists' who have a stake in keeping artists terrified and maufacturers under their thumb, in order to keep their power base from eroding. They play on fear of the future and fear of the unknown.

I suggest you listen to real experts who have worked intimately with pastels for 20, 30, 40 years, and will testify to the relative safety, such as Kitty Wallis (since the 60s), Albert Handell (since the late 50s), etc. I've worked in pastels for the last 25 years with no ill effects yet--and I don't feel I have a lot to worry about.

Use good sense, but don't be hysterically afraid of the dirt!

Deborah

[PeggyB]

I concur with Deborah, Kat, Cori, & Kathy. Although there are some people highly sensitive to pastels, it is usually the lesser quality pastels and the preservative they contain.

Another way to think of this is to remember the "greats" like Monet who even had to grind their own on occassion, and he lived to be quite old and it wasn't the pastels that killed him. You have a greater chance of being killed or injured in a car accident or crossing the street than you do from pastel dust - try giving your loving husband that arguement (if you don't think he'll take away the car keys or lock you in the house!)

oh yah - I'm allergic to many things outside such as anything green and its pollen, and house dust too. However, I've never had a problem with pastels and I've worked with them since 1982 or there about. On the otherhand, the turpentine I used with oils prior to pastels became a major problem....

Peggy

[Charlye]

(I'm the dear husband.. probably not supposed to reply but here it goes) :)

Fear of dust.. No. You should see the top of my computer desk. :eek:
Lock her in.. and take the keys.. ah.. no. If you love her set her free..

Dany is breastfeeding a one year old infant and has two other dear children.
The little one is still "swiffing" the floor and puting everything in his drooly
mouth.

So using Schminke's at the kitchen table or in our living area is out. To
cite the most important reference -- Schminke's own health & safety
guide. With pastels they warn of two dangers.. from inert dust and from
the toxic pigments. Based on the labeling and my searches so far I'm
unable to determine the trade secret mix of chemicals in schminckes.
There are 6 pastels in Dany's box which state they contain Nickel (which
some people are allergic to) and cobalt (a carcinogen).

http://www.schmincke.de/media/pdf/health_safety_english.pdf

In the distant past many pastels/paints contained chromium and cadmium
which are very toxic. And perhaps modern art supplies still contain these
compounds in some brands.

I'm most concerned about the toxicity of the dust and that it would
be tracked into the home and expose the baby. Also since Dany is the
one painting.. and usually wrangling the baby her shirt and hands should
be cleaned to avoid putting the dust on the baby.

To their credit ASTM, California and the EU have made great strides in
controlling the use of toxic chemical in consumer products. For example
when I'm out in the Bay Area on business I cannot help but see signs "this
business uses chemicals found to cause cancer by the state of california".
That note even appears on the Dany's pastels. And the EU have been been
spear heading the ROTS initiative which will remove or limit mercury, lead,
arsenic and cadmium in electronics being imported into the EU. American
companies are already scrambling to meet the new EU restrictions in
everything from computer parts to consumer electronics.

So back to pastels.. Our garage is finished, has an epoxy covered floor.
It sports the best lighting in the house. And I'll buy a space heater for
this winter. So besides having to sit next to a parked car.. it's a nice
space. Oh.. the garbage cans. :( Not so nice.

With only 6 pastels with warnings.. another altenative to all this madness
is to put those six cobalt based pastels in a seperate 'use only in case
of emergency' box.

Wiping up the dust is much better than vacuuming... which would just
spread it around.

http://www.noteaccess.com/MATERIALS/SafetyPigments.htm

Hazards in Cleaning
When dust containing dry pigment is to be cleaned from areas of the studio or from studio furniture, the artist should be careful not to stir it into the air where it may be more generally distributed. Ordinary vacuum cleaners will suck in the finely divided pigment and may blow it out through the machine's exhaust, dispersing the pigment through the room. Sweeping with a dry broom tends to raise a large quantity of dust into the air. Sheets of brown paper placed on the work table and on the floor of the work area before the painting session can catch the waste pigment and then can be discarded. Cleanup of furniture with damp disposable paper towels or cloths will minimize the spreading of pigments. A damp cloth wrapped around a dry dust mop will remove pigment traces from the floor with less risk of dispersion than if a vacuum cleaner or a dry broom is employed. The painter should discard dust cloths, paper towels, and paper dropcloths quickly after they are used.

Clothing such as smocks, overalls, and aprons worn in the studio should be laundered separately from other clothing. Special care should be taken to avoid washing work clothes together with the clothes of small children.

Not my favorite color anyway.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Aug-2006/85032-IMG_5495_crop.JPG

As for the N95 mask.. not fun to wear. But she bought them.. not me.
Is that pastel dust on her shirt? :)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Aug-2006/85032-IMG_5489_crop.JPG

Boy I'm in trouble now. I'm her biggest and ever present art fan. She starting
a great art pasttime/career/hobby/lifestyle who knows. I just want us all to
be safe.

I appreciate everyones comments on this topic. We're finding the middle
ground and staying safe and sensible all at the same time.

Best wishes..
Charlye

[Kitty Wallis]

I've had myself tested after Years of extreme exposure to pigments, including pigments with strong warnings such as cadmium. I had been making my own pastels, for 20 years, from piles of dry pigments with my t-shirt pulled up over my nose when ever I thought about it.

I had no cadmium in my system and only trace amounts of cobalt. The Natropath who handled the testing said cobalt was of no importance.

I have found the safety data sheets to go overboard in warnings, I believe, to limit possible litigation. For instance, viridian is grouped among the toxic pigments, however, it is used in cosmetics.

[Charlye]

Thank Kitty. I agree that cobalt is less dangerous than other pigments.
So I'm happier about these pastels than a week ago. We are better informed
now. So do you think painting at the kitchen table or baby's play areas
would be avoided?

http://www.claysupply.com/catalog/pdfs/MSDS_Cobalt_Carbonate.pdf
http://www.claysupply.com/catalog/pdfs/MSDS_Cobalt_Oxide.pdf
Irritation of the nose and throat. Rashes and dermatitis.
Ingestion of significant amounts.. damages organs. (but so would plain
old table salt if you ate significant amounts).

http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/CO/cobalt_oxide.html
May act as a carcinogen. (so UK and CA are saying 'may')

Thanks. Charlye

[PeggyB]

Charlye - Thank you so much for joining in the conversation. This is an important issue, and occassionally all pastelist should be reminded to "take care", but don't panic. I'm glad to know you are reaching a happy middle ground. Kitty is a valued resource in this regard as she "lives" what she practices, and is so willing to share her information.

As for working in the kitchen or around young children or in their "space", I'd suggest not doing that. The pastels you mention Dany is using are a high quality, but you never know when the "addiction" will lead her to wanting a less quality pastel just for the color of it. I think I mentioned before that the only people I know personally who have had an allergic reaction to pastels were exposed to lesser quality products. It wasn't the pigment that was the problem as they have continued with pastel, but are very careful of the brands they buy. It is the preservative that was the problem. Young children can be sensitive to any number of things so why take the chance when alternatives are so available?

Your garage actually sounds like an ideal painting area - once the space heater is installed come winter. I know I like painting on my patio in the summer even though I have a perfectly good large studio in house. When finished painting outside, I just hose off the cement of the patio so clean-up is so easy out there. Inside, my flooring is bamboo, but I place a very large terrycloth blanket under the easel area, and use a wet mop on the floor itself once a week. I don't usually have much on the mop, but the blanket gets a weekly washing as it is filthy!

I had to inwardly chuckle when I looked at the picture of Dany with the N95 mask - on her head! :lol: When I used one, that's where it usually ended up too so I've quite buying them. I think it was Kat who suggested getting a table easel or other good quality upright easel so the pastel dust will fall down and into a catch cup rather on to her clothing. I'm going now to create one and post a new thread of how I do it so you'll see for yourself in pictures what I'm talking about.

Once again, thanks for joining in, and thank you too for supporting your very own artist. We all appreciate the support of a partner or spouse.

Peggy

[Bringer]

Hi,

Of course that I didn't read everything.....:-)
Well, Schminke is a very good brand and it's expectable that they'll use «good» pigments - good for paintings less good for health.
But that will happen in just a few colours.
Don't quote me on this, because I'm not sure.
The most sensitive issue that I see here, besides all care that one must have handling mediums, be it pastels, oils or whatever, are the children.
Now, has the garage a good ventilation ?

Kind regards,

José

[CindyW]

I also struggled with the issue of pasteling while pregnant and breastfeeding and so read up on all I could at the time which led me to banish myself to the basement with an air filter running at full speed (and painting only AFTER the baby arrived) and a dehumidifier that runs still 24 hours a day. A few threads here a couple years ago had descriptions of quite a few artists who did wear booties and gloves and who wiped the floor, etc., after every session as well as artists who found peace with the dust and that also helped me reinforce my decisions for my pasteling boundaries. If I can find it, I'll post it.

All that Charlye researched and all that everyone responded with illustrates the ongoing controversy on pastel safety. I side with having a studio away from eating and drinking rooms and where kids will be on a daily basis. That just seems very sensible.

Good decision for the garage OR basement OR attic (if heat and cold are adjusted). Actually, a place very close to the living quarters but just far enough removed also makes it a special arting place to remove YOURSELF from the hustle and bustle for the time you can get to paint...
...just make it nice and comfy and WARM for Dany!
You'll find a good resolution you both can live with, I'm sure.
Cindy

[prettytulips]

When it comes to what toxins are bad for babies, I'd be more worried about what she cleans the floor with, what she washers her baby's clothing in and what kind of food she gives him. It's amazing how people can immerse their bodies with allergetic foods, chemicals, dust in the house and basic pollens and yet get overly worried about pigments. If no one is blowing pigments all over and she wipes down the area she paints in, there is no problem where she paints. Take Kitty's testimony. If she can play in the pigments like a sand box, then your baby is fine with mama drawing next to her with them.

[Deborah Secor]

Twenty years may not be the longest test in the world, but my son grew up in the pastel dust and is healthy and whole--intelligent even. I have pictures of him asleep in his carrier on top of my pastel desk as an infant. Since painting has always been my livelihood, I also had no choice but to keep a studio in the dining area all his life, except the choice not to work. I chose to be with him, which I think had more value than renting a studio and spending my days away from him--exposure to pastels or not.

On another note, my animals were heavily exposed, too, and died at ripe old ages: both my cat and my dog at age 16! The cat was mean--she came that way--however she was never stupid. The dog was a doofus, but he was a Lab/Golden, so I think it was more nature than nurture.

Personally, I think worry will kill you faster than exposure to anything, so if using pastels worries you, by all means take up knitting! Just MHO...

Deborah

[Charlye]

Peggy - great response. very helpful.

Jose - "has the garage a good ventilation?" two open bays is too much. yeah.
Air filtration.. no

Cindy - "special warm comfy arting place" I like that. I want that too. thx.

prettytulips - "she wipes down the area she paints in" perfect.

Deborah - "by all means take up knitting" She knits too! Oh don't get me
started on the dangers of knitting needles. :D I'm glad there are so many
healthy (mean) pets, kids and artists. Many general purpose art supplies
will be made safer whether we are willing or not. Did you pass bubbles of
liquid mercury around in the class room? Now try to buy a thermometer
with it. Less and less.

Basically I'm holding/minding the baby while she's painting. So unless she's
going to leave for her mother's house (plan b) .. I'm helping in this art
process. :D Which is good, because it's stiring the artist in me (not softies)
not yet anyway.

I think I'm glad to be included in this conversation. With her and all us. We'll
see what's she says.

Charlye

[Deborah Secor]

Charlye, any guy who will hold the baby so his wife can paint is okay with me...

I hope you'll pardon a slight edge I bring to this particular topic. I've been around this forum for a long time and we have had so many threads about toxicity that I admit I come loaded for bear. There are some who come in with an agenda, not engaging anyone in a discussion.

If you want to dredge up the past you can simply do a search in this forum and I bet you'll be supplied with reading material that will keep you occupied until that baby you're holding is riding a bicycle!

it's stiring the artist in me (not softies)not yet anyway.
And what is your medium?

Deborah

[PeggyB]

I hope you'll pardon a slight edge I bring to this particular topic. I've been around this forum for a long time and we have had so many threads about toxicity that I admit I come loaded for bear. There are some who come in with an agenda, not engaging anyone in a discussion. Deborah

Deborah, I'm on the same page as you are in this debate, and sometimes know I get a bit too abrasive in my defense of pastels. My experiences come from other sources, but I think the naysayers are in the same family no matter where they are spouting their platform! :(
Mostly these days I just ignore them, but Charlye seems like a nice guy wanting honest answers that will work for his family, and I certainly can't find fault with that.

Peggy

[Charlye]

I have no platform or adenda.. except finding that happy medium for
my family. Thanks for everyone's help.

Obviously safety is a raw nerve. You don't want your choices taken away,
products and habits changed. And no one likes being told they are wrong.
Marketing, lawsuits, fair or unfair competition just makes a big mess out of it.

I believe MSDS Material Safety Data Sheets are written by scientists &
engineers (and partly by the lawyers). They are read by techs, scientists,
engineers, laywers, consumers and emergency / safetly folks. I trust them
as factual and generally a little conservative. I'd love to be an informed
consumer, but since we don't eat art supplies there's no knowing what's
in them. Trade secrets are more important than informed consumers, for
now. I think that is fine as long as someone is looking out for you.

I appreciate all the views into how professional pastel artists conduct
themselves. Even if it is a little scary (to me). Cadmium sandbox is not
some where I'd play. But I'll always fall on the otherside of caution.

Deborah "And what is your medium?" - No medium would claim to own me
quite yet. I'm hanging around Pen&Ink, Oil Pastel and Drawing&Sketching.
Thanks for asking.
Charlye

[*Marina*]

What is going on here. Dany started this thread and it got taken over by her husband. Personally I think it is good to expose your children to all sorts of materials as long as it is not too poisonous. You can over protect them as well, which won't do any good to their health either. Turns them into weak children picking up any virus or bacteria around.
Charlye, some advice here, give your wife some space to breathe.

[dany]

Wow! Thanks for all the feedback on this sensitive, "beaten horse" issue. It's interesting to me how you serious pastellists work on a daily basis, with your cleanup being pretty simple. Deborah, my mom was also an artist--is your son an artist, too?-- and I grew up around some pretty dangerous chemicals and fumes, which she tried to keep us away from as much as possible--but we never had a garage! I know better than to expose my children to toxic materials, and our debate at home has been over how toxic my materials really are, which my huband has admitted aren't as bad as he first thought.

As some of you have realized, my husband is a great guy and very smart, and I hope some of you have benefitted from his research. We had both read a lot of the old threads on this subject, but there isn't a lot of agreement among pastellists about the correct amount of caution. Charlye is someone who errs on the side of caution and scientific facts, and I'm one who worries less about things I should probably worry about. Personally, I would be fine working without gloves and a mask (Peggy, that mask really is more comfortable when you wear it on your head, isn't it? :)), and I'm OK with working in the garage, as long as I get a space heater in the winter and the trash gets taken care of on a regular basis. And I think I'm going to get some medical scrubs so I don't have to keep changing my clothes, which is a pain, but necessary because of the baby. What's tough about all this proper pastel protocol is that I can't just pick up my painting for a quick half-hour session while the baby is napping--I have to wait for a time block of a couple hours, to make it worth the clean up and shower. And with three little boys, I don't get that kind of time very often.

Thanks again for all your comments and advice. I think I am going to invest in an easel and make a dust catcher like Peggy suggested. So many of you are very sweet and I had to laugh at some of the responses. Charlye's intention was not to take over my thread, but he is very close to this issue and has been doing a lot of research for me --also, he works on his computer all day (and I obviously don't!) so he can check the thread often. Thanks again, everyone! :)

[HarveyDunn]

She's going to get more exposure to toxins sitting next to the car!

[Eclectic_Asylum]

The only toxins found in modern pigments are cadmium and cobalt.

Cadmium is a toxin because it is a heavy metal and isn't easily excreted from the body. Massive exposure to cadmium can be toxic but small amounts of daily exposure are not a problem. Cadmium can be found in drinking water (from pipes) and in grains (from the soil) in trace amounts.

The main source of cadmium ingested by most people is from cigarette smoke. The equivalent of 3-4 cigarettes a day is still below the bodies ability to expell cadmium daily. I think you would notice if you inhaled that much pastel dust.

The effects of cadmium is mainly high blood pressure because it accumulates in the kidneys to be expelled. Closely related to zinc cadmium can interfer with zinc in the body by binding with zinc receptors. There is no known use for cadmium in the body.

All babies are born without cadmium and everyone accumulated cadmium as the grow older.

Most cadmium pigments are cadmium compounds. The compounds are generally safe in the body because the cadmium isn't bio-available.


Cobalt in pure form on the other hand is nasty chemical for the body. It ranks in the top 10% of toxicity chemicals. However most cobalt coumpounds are not toxic.

Cobalt is essential in some coupounds used by the human body. like vitamin b-12.

The cobalt in pigments is coumpounded with aluminum, zinc, and phosphates to get the different violets blues and greens.



Pastel dust is too heavy to stay in the air for very long. I take no precautions when working. I blow my works, I have fans running, and don't use an air filter. On the opposite side of my studio from where I work there are shelves that go months without collecting any dust.

Jason

[PeggyB]

Thank you for your indepth contribution Jason. There is only one place I'm wondering who has the correct information though. I was told several years ago by an artist friend who taught at the Seattle Art Institute that he'd been told in a "materials safety lecture" that the dust from pastel can remain airborn for up to 10 hours! If the particles are heavy, it would make sense that they'd fall almost directly downward, and not migrate across the room to your shelves unless there was a good bit of airflow in the room. For myself, I'm a bit like you (but I don't blow on the painting!) However, when I'm working with others I'm much more careful.

I taught one children's pastel class that I was constantly being reminded of that precaution, and at the end decided
it probably wasn't the best medium for 8 - 11 year olds. No matter how many times I told them not to blow on the work, they still did it. Then one day some of the 9 year old girls found they had too much fun applying the pastel to their hands, and then washing them to see what color of soap they had created! This was a very enthuastic group of children, but even with a couple mom assistants in the room I knew I didn't want to do it again.

Peggy

[Eclectic_Asylum]

I'm sure there is plenty of places on the internet that you can find infor about cadmium and cobalt. Most of the info I shared comes from when I studied biomedical engineering and took and interest in the toxicity of pigments in some chem classes.

When looking at information about cadmium and cobalt it is important to seperate the info for the pure ionic versions of the elements and the compounds using those elements. An example is cobalt. If you ready about pure cobalt you will scare yourself to death and think anything to do with cobalt must be deadly poisonous. But cobalt in vitamin b12 is essential for our body.

Pgeey, pastel was the first medium a learned at age 6. I guess old habits of blowing the work die hard. As for the soap I hate how it changes colors and I ave to wash the soap after I finidh washing my hands.

Jason

[PeggyB]

I'm sure there is plenty of places on the internet that you can find infor about cadmium and cobalt. Most of the info I shared comes from when I studied biomedical engineering and took and interest in the toxicity of pigments in some chem classes.

When looking at information about cadmium and cobalt it is important to seperate the info for the pure ionic versions of the elements and the compounds using those elements. An example is cobalt. If you ready about pure cobalt you will scare yourself to death and think anything to do with cobalt must be deadly poisonous. But cobalt in vitamin b12 is essential for our body.

Pgeey, pastel was the first medium a learned at age 6. I guess old habits of blowing the work die hard. As for the soap I hate how it changes colors and I ave to wash the soap after I finidh washing my hands. Jason

Thanks Jason - as I said before, I wasn't the one who did that research nor did I personally attend the product safety lecture. It is reassuring to know you at least have done the "homework" so to speak, and can speak with authority from a first person point of view.

Oh I so agree with you about colored soap! I switched to liquid soap just so I wouldn't have to wash the bar. :smug: It was the color of the soap on the girls' hands that they found so appealing.

If I was really worried about the pastels for myself, I wouldn't use them, but obviously I'm not worried. Having a lawyer daughter does make one a bit more cautious though where others are concerned... :lol:

Peggy

[skywatcher]

I've just got my pastel box out again after some months of working with oils.....crikey.....gloves; masks; boots, overalls; beginning to sound like something other than an art forum:evil:
I dont quite understand how so many artists create so much dust when working with pastels. I use a strip of thick silver foil under the edge of my pastel-board, to catch the grains, and tilt the easel slightly forward from vertical. Apart from my hands, I rarely get the stuff anywhere else, maybe a bit on my clothes (which are old anyway)....does everyone then go crazy-wild, slashing at their paper with their sticks? :)
There are toxicity issues with all painting media. The only way to handle it is to just use common-sense, be aware, keep reasonably clean and fight off the paranoia; otherwise no-one would paint anything with anything.

[JamieWG]

I'm going to diplomatically not offer an opinion. :D However, I am VERY happy to see this discussion taking place. I think that all of us need reminders now and then to play safely, myself included! Researching information and taking precautions according to the conclusions we reach as individuals is important for artists in all mediums. Each has its own set of hazards.

Jamie

[M Douglas]

I'm going to diplomatically not offer an opinion. :D However, I am VERY happy to see this discussion taking place. I think that all of us need reminders now and then to play safely, myself included! Researching information and taking precautions according to the conclusions we reach as individuals is important for artists in all mediums. Each has its own set of hazards.

Jamie

I completely agree....thanks Dany & Charlye:clap: