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WaltWally
07-19-2006, 02:10 AM
1. Put it in the refrigerator.

2. Pour orange juice over crushed ice in a tall glass

3. Add red.

4. Add yellow.

5. Add blue.

6. Add black, white, or gray.

Personally, I would regard all of these as correct (while admitting the first two are frivolous) -- since I regard "orange" -or rather, "yellow-orange" as THE warmest color.

But that's me; you are free to disagree. However, I can't help pointing out that opinions on what the warmest color is, pretty much range from "red" to "yellow" which averages out to orange!!

I must put here a recommendation that everyone read LarrySeiler's postings in the thread, "importance of color temperature" in this forum. I'm impressed by his work, of course, and with his justification of thinking in terms of color temperature, but also insightful comments on the whole process of the individual artist's quest for adequate tools (verbal and non-verbal) to produce the results they hope for.

I started this thread intending to raise discussion of the profitable uses of terminology regarding color and its attributes, generally, and specifically to say that, while using the color temperature terminology in one's thinking-while-observing can be quite useful in sharpening one's perception of subtle nuances in the color(s)of an object, I see a potential for confusion while discussing color in these terms.

So, how DO you cool an orange? with red? yellow? blue? black, white or gray?? Or are there other ways?

Patrick1
07-19-2006, 04:05 AM
So, how DO you cool an orange? with red? yellow? blue? black, white or gray?? Or are there other ways?
I'll add:

-merely darken it (not the exact same thing as adding black paint)
-related to above, surround it with brighter and/or warmer colors (never underestimate the power of simultanoues contrast)

Richard Saylor
07-19-2006, 04:25 AM
So, how DO you cool an orange? with red? yellow? blue? black, white or gray?? Or are there other ways?If orange is the warmest color, just add anything that will make it less orange (whatever that means).

Jeff Rage
07-19-2006, 09:36 AM
OK, I've been thinking about this (even drew out a chart.) I also went and read all of the trheads on temperature. And I have to conclude .....
..... that number 1 is the correct answer. :)

Actually, IMO, yellow-orange is cooloer then red-orange.

BTW, the best post I found in the temperature threads was this one by Einion (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/member.php?u=3842):
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4547806&postcount=47

mauricar
07-19-2006, 11:47 AM
IMHO- add yellow. I must agree with Patrick. Surround it with warmer colors. Then mix yourself some vodka and orange and pour over ice cubes. Then relax and enjoy your art.

Einion
07-19-2006, 01:00 PM
1. Put it in the refrigerator.

2. Pour orange juice over crushed ice in a tall glass
:lol:

So, how DO you cool an orange? with red? yellow? blue? black, white or gray?? Or are there other ways?
First step: define cooler...

And so the debate continues, but as we all should know now, it doesn't matter.

Einion

WFMartin
07-19-2006, 05:55 PM
I, too, believe "orange" to be about the "warmest" color.

That being said, "cooling" or "warming" a color doesn't always necessitate selecting a hue immediately adjacent to the hue in question. That only is applicable sometimes. Remember, we can't get brutally "scientific" about this warm and cool identification, since it, by its nature is not scientific, but more of intuition and opinion. Since we consider orange as being the "warmest" color, whatever is directly across from it on the color wheel would, by pure common sense, be the "coolest" color.

Since the complement of red is cyan, and the complement of yellow is blue, the complement of orange (between red and yellow) would be some cross between cyan and blue, and that's the color I'd add to orange in order to "cool" it. In fact, were I to be presently painting a still life of a real orange, that is precisely the color I'd add to "cool" my orange.

Of course that would, in fact, neutralize it, but what's a cooler version of "the warmest of all colors"? Gray (neutral). Makes perfect sense to me.

Or...........put it in the refrigerator!:lol: In fact, it's about 110 degrees here, today, and that would taste mighty good right about now!!

Bill

WaltWally
07-19-2006, 06:46 PM
WFMartin wrote:In fact, it's about 110 degrees here, today, and that would taste mighty good right about now!!It's "only" 92 here, but the heat index is 96. Our humidity tends to high numbers; what's yours?

I like your phrase, 'brutally "scientific",' it's kinda like trying to locate the North Pole with a compass, when the north magnetic pole is some 600 miles from the geographic pole, migrating some 10-40km annually.

WFMartin
07-19-2006, 07:18 PM
WFMartin wrote:It's "only" 92 here, but the heat index is 96. Our humidity tends to high numbers; what's yours?

I like your phrase, 'brutally "scientific",' it's kinda like trying to locate the North Pole with a compass, when the north magnetic pole is some 600 miles from the geographic pole, migrating some 10-40km annually.

Our humidity is 14% today. It is 108 degrees and the dew point is 50.

Yes, I used the term, "brutally scientific", because, while the analysis of color can be quite scientific, the terms, "warm", and "cool" simply ain't.;)

We often argue amongst ourselves regarding which color is the warmest and which is the coolest, but what really makes a difference is their location on the color wheel, which is something almost no one does scientifically, although that is one thing that actually can be accomplished in a rather precise manner.

By my logic, any time a "warmer" or "cooler" version of any given hue can be located by seeking some immediately adjacent color, that simply means that the color in question can't possibly be the "warmest" color, or its "cool" version would be located directly across the color wheel from it, and NOT adjacent to it. If there were to be a "warmer" or "cooler" color adjacent to it, that would then make that adjacent color a "warmer" (or "cooler") color, by its own definition. I find that such descriptions get rather complicated, when you deal in terms that are somewhat less than scientific.:D

Bill

bruin70
07-24-2006, 08:13 PM
add something REATIVELY cool to it...

with all this talk about cooling/warming colors, and i am assuming the people posting the question don't handle their colors/values well,,,,,maybe the safe thing to do would be to cut the additive color to a neutral cool/warm, thin it out so it doesn't overpower the color it will be added to,,,,and then add it to the main color.

LarrySeiler
07-25-2006, 01:09 PM
I would make orange cooler by surrounding it with warmer color...yellow, and additionally adding a bit of white and even graying the orange slightly to yet read orange will make it read cooler.

Richard Saylor
07-25-2006, 06:53 PM
...with all this talk about cooling/warming colors, and i am assuming the people posting the question don't handle their colors/values well...That's not necessarily the case. Some of us are just curious about how others think in terms of warm and cool. I can't tell you which is warmer, red-orange or yellow-orange, but I have no trouble whatsoever with value and color in my paintings. Color temperature is a superfluous concept as far as I'm concerned, but I'm still curious about it.

Richard

bruin70
07-26-2006, 02:43 PM
I would make orange cooler by surrounding it with warmer color...yellow, and additionally adding a bit of white and even graying the orange slightly to yet read orange will make it read cooler.

yellow makes the orange "redder",,,if that means making it cooler. surrounding orange with an analogous color simply pushes it in the other direction, but is that making it cooler? well,,,i guess bluer is cooler than green, but is red cooler than orange? somehow, i think of warms as dealing with warmth and cools as dealing with coolness. if one thinks darker = cooler, then i suppose so,,,but if i'm painting i'm not doing that because making an orange appear redder doesn't make it cooler. if i have oranges in a still life, i'm not going to make them look redder in order to make them look cooler.

i think i stated something earlier about changing the background, but now that i think about how I would actually do it, i would have to add a cool to make a warm color cooler. i could only make an orange cooler if i could surround it with a warmer version of itself.

the impracticality of surrounding a color with another color to change it's temp is that you're forced to add surrounding color you may not want in a painting in the first place. and if this is all about color theory instead of color practice, and you just want to paint squares like itten,,,,,,,,,,,,

so i'll stay with adding cool to the orange.

FriendCarol
07-26-2006, 07:08 PM
I, too, see orange (a highly saturated red-orange) as the warmest color; yellow being 'cooler.' When I used to paint (gouache) sunset beach scenes, however, I would make my sun starting with hazy light yellow on the outside, gradating to the hottest vermilion, then gradually diminish that to yellow, leaving the very center white. Believe me, that looked bright!

Btw, I just read a library book (published 1979) by an old painter: John Pellew Paints Watercolors. He uses temperature very naturally, and in fact he says one thing repeatedly that I haven't seen elsewhere: He says the traditional way to use transparent w/c was glazing warm over cool! Of course, his training predates most of our pigments, so his warms are mostly the cadmiums, yellow ochre, and raw sienna -- they happen to be non-staining. His usual blue is phthalo blue (this writing predates the varieties), which happens to be staining; though he sometimes uses cerulean. I have seen some authors recommend using staining over nonstaining (though I haven't found this necessary myself), so maybe that's all it is: Perhaps the rule of 'cool over warm' arises from the coincidence that almost all his warm pigments are non-staining and fairly opaque. It's a good read, btw: He grew up in Cornwall (before & during WWI) where there were two artist colonies nearby, emigrated to the U.S. around 1919 (when he was 16), heard Robert Henri's last lecture; has a lot of interesting things to say and writes well.

Patrick1
07-27-2006, 04:11 AM
(Names withheld to protect the guilty)...

I would make orange cooler by surrounding it with warmer color...yellow

I, too, see orange (a highly saturated red-orange) as the warmest color; yellow being 'cooler.'

What's the point in trying? :o

FriendCarol
07-27-2006, 05:51 AM
OT:
:lol: :evil: Patrick, yesterday I was reading another library book by Tony Paul (How to Create Light in Your Paintings -- and btw, the short answer seems to be, make everything else darker :evil: ). He's done some pointillism, too. His looks like the real thing, and he traces it back to tapestry makers (pre-Impressionism; Seurat got it from Chevreul's theory used by Gobelin, apparently).

Einion
07-27-2006, 10:59 AM
yellow makes the orange "redder",,,
Yellow makes orange redder?

i think i stated something earlier about changing the background, but now that i think about how I would actually do it, i would have to add a cool to make a warm color cooler. i could only make an orange cooler if i could surround it with a warmer version of itself.
I agree on many levels. Apart from the fact that one would not generally be in a position to alter a passage or an entire piece to push one area in a given direction - unless you plan this from the outset perhaps, or don't mind altering the work to do this later - it's just so much simpler to modify the paint mixture to move it any way you want. This is assuming it's a colour direction that's possible in paint of course, you can't increase the saturation of a high-chroma tube orange so if you want to make it look even more brilliant you'd have to employ the other route.

Einion

WaltWally
07-27-2006, 08:07 PM
Einion asked:Yellow makes orange redder?
Yellow next to orange makes orange look redder, by contrast, no?

bigflea
07-28-2006, 11:23 PM
This question presupposes (imo) that the painting problem is to resolve a difference between a 'cool' orange and a 'warm' orange. For example, a composition using oranges ( as in fruit), and part of the problem is showing sunlight planes against shade planes on the orange fruit.

But shade planes are not always cool compared to sunlit planes. Both may be warm, and both may be cool, depending on the light conditions. For example, grey day lighting can be cool overall while grey day direct light may be somewhat warmer than greyday shade.

In whatever situation, I think the simplest way to try and solve the color difference between a cool and warm is to determine what the hue difference is. So instead of generalizing as a cool orange, it is possible to identify what pigment needs to be mixed into the mass of color to cool it. An orange mass in this context may be cooled by adding a violet, a blue, a green, a cool red such a cadmium red, or other possible pigments, which 'cool' it by comparison to a warmer orange, which is likely more of a saturated orange pigment.

Ken

Einion
07-29-2006, 11:39 AM
Einion asked:
Yellow next to orange makes orange look redder, by contrast, no?
Ah yes, I'm sure that's what he meant; should have seen it myself (obvious in context) :o

Einion

Quebster
08-01-2006, 12:02 PM
I don't make my orange coolers, I buy them at Vons! LOL!!! In the liquor isle!

mcdougal
08-07-2006, 10:19 AM
Reflecting on my years of experience with the creation and analysis of The Tequila Sunrise "formula", and its various iterations, I must agree with some of the posts above. That being, the yellow-orange of orange juice, appears cooler, when it bounces off the red of, oh...something like Grenadine.

Must go now, and re-confirm this hypothesis.

abrush
08-14-2006, 10:45 AM
Just add white or yellow? OJ and ice+great summer drink.:)

jdadson
08-15-2006, 04:12 PM
An orange mass in this context may be cooled by adding a violet, a blue, a green, a cool red such a cadmium red, or other possible pigments, which 'cool' it by comparison to a warmer orange, which is likely more of a saturated orange pigment.

Ken

Interesting that the admixtures of blue and green would move the hue in different directions. Or if the blue were just the right shade of blue, it would change the hue not at all. It would simply darken and probably de-saturate the color.

Have I mentioned that I think "warm" and "cool" are vacuous concepts? :-)

FriendCarol
08-15-2006, 09:57 PM
Ah, mcdougal, you are obviously going to be an asset to this forum. You, too, Rich... :thumbsup:
What we need around here is a little less blue. and a little more humor. :D

dbclemons
08-20-2006, 04:32 PM
1. Put it in the refrigerator.

2. Pour orange juice over crushed ice in a tall glass

3. Add red.

4. Add yellow.

5. Add blue.

6. Add black, white, or gray.
...?

7. Give it an Elvis "do" ("Thankyaveramuch")

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Aug-2006/5224-cool_orange.jpg

FriendCarol
08-20-2006, 06:58 PM
:cool:

WaltWally
08-21-2006, 12:12 PM
dbclemens wrote:7. Give it an Elvis "do" ("Thankyaveramuch")

:lol: :lol: :lol:

FriendCarol
08-22-2006, 05:07 AM
Well, once again waking too early, I went wandering through handprint.com, and found a very interesting page I hadn't previously read -- or at least, not in this version:
http://handprint.com/HP/WCL/color12.html (updated on the famous, definitive 8/01/05 :D )

Perhaps this page was unavailable, in revision during my earlier explorations. Regardless, it provides some fine data (with clear definitions) regarding the warm/cool distinction.

Richard, if you're reading this, have a look. Very scientific. :cool: And yes, the distinction is quite 'real.' But both greens and violet/red-violet have to be excluded, as being neither warm nor cool according to the criteria.

...wanders off to have another think about the color purple, and painting representations of clover flowers... probably shoulda gone with lightness instead of chroma...

Richard Saylor
08-22-2006, 05:47 AM
This is frustrating for someone who honestly doesn't know what the warmest color is (but wants to understand what people are talking about). The other evening I was able to look directly at the sun as it was touching the horizon. It was a lovely middle orange and looked really hot. Are phenomena like that behind the notion that orange is the warmest color?

However, the sun itself is not orange. Orange is an atmospheric effect. The sun is white. Therefore shouldn't white be the warmest color? But there are those who say that white is a cool color. Aaaarrrggh!

This wouldn't bother me at all except for the fact that there are so many people who speak of these matters in a very positive way as if it should be obvious to everyone. I really despise being clueless.

One more thing, and I'll shut up. What is the warmest color anyhow? Is it red-orange, middle-orange, yellow-orange, or what (and why)? If there is no definitive answer to this, then there is only one obvious conclusion, and it is not very flattering to those who believe that there actually is a warmest color.

Richard

FriendCarol
08-22-2006, 06:23 AM
There are two distinct proposals for warmest color, with good reason behind each. One is red-orange, apparently for physiological reasons (most people identify this as warmest, btw). The second candidate is yellow, because... well, hard for me to say exactly, but something like, many artists (example given was Turner) use "make yellower or make bluer" their method of adjusting color. In other words, yellow as warmest turns out to be a sorta 'practical' choice. :cool:

The main point of the page is that the 'warm' colors look warm because of characteristics of their lightness/chroma/saturation -- not hue! Please read the page yourself, and then we might have a good debate on it. (After I reread it myself a few more times. :o )

bigflea
08-31-2006, 09:26 PM
Richard,
It may help to limit the concept of warmest/coolest to what is present in one particular painting or group of color relationships.

Ken

WaltWally
08-31-2006, 09:55 PM
Carol wrote:The main point of the page is that the 'warm' colors look warm because of characteristics of their lightness/chroma/saturation -- not hue!Do you mean, not hue alone? Because the hue is part of the equation, yes?

FriendCarol
09-01-2006, 06:17 AM
Well, handprint's author does occasionally tend to overstate a point, but he maintains the characteristics we attribute to color temperature just happen to be linked to a range of hues, but it's those hues' potential for lightness & chroma that really determine our usual visual response. That's assuming I'm reading the page correctly -- which might not be the case as I've only plowed through it 2-3 times so far. :rolleyes: Even as I say that it doesn't seem completely possible, since yellow and red have such different lightness/chroma potentials. I should read it again (just not today! :D ).

WaltWally
09-01-2006, 10:21 AM
I confess I find that section of handprint very dense (or maybe it's me that's dense!) -- but what you just said jibes with my overall impression of what color temp is "all about"...

I'm coming to think part of my mission is to shed light on this issue, so I likely will continue to belabor certain points (hopefully with humor), among them my contention that

while it may be useful for one to think in terms of c.t., it is less useful to communicate in those terms alone.

Because the question this thread asks, has many answers (minus the jokes) -- anything you do to the "warmest" color will make it cooler, but in different ways.
It's like being at the North Pole and being told, to get to Chicago, you should go south. While it is true, it is insufficient!
I plan to beat this to death in another thread, tentatively titled, Color Temperature SOLVED by scientific means!

WaltWally
09-01-2006, 10:33 AM
Or maybe I'll call it

Color Space: the FINAL Frontier!

Einion
09-01-2006, 06:44 PM
...it's those hues' potential for lightness & chroma that really determine our usual visual response.
I think that should be, "...it's those hues' potential for lightness & high chroma..." to be clearer.


while it may be useful for one to think in terms of c.t., it is less useful to communicate in those terms alone.
It's unquestionable that this is correct, irrespective of one's stance.

It's like being at the North Pole and being told, to get to Chicago, you should go south. While it is true, it is insufficient!
Good analogy.

Einion

FriendCarol
09-01-2006, 08:40 PM
Always good to have a mission statement, Ron... Hmmm. Wait a minute -- this is not a mission statement! :lol:

A whole bunch of artists ordinarily communicate in terms of c.t.; others don't. I never think in those terms myself, being always extremely specific about color (rather than dealing in color generalities) as I paint, but at least most of us can comprehend now what the others mean, right?

WaltWally
09-02-2006, 02:55 AM
Carol wrote:but at least most of us can comprehend now what the others mean, right?Well, yes and no. If a group of artists have agreed, either explicitly or implicitly, that when they say 'warmer' or 'cooler' they are only referring to shifts in hue, while maintaining chroma and value levels, then yes, communication may occur. Although, magnitudes of change may be a bit vague. However, this does not eliminate the areas of confusion possible when the 'starting color' is arguably THE warmest or THE coolest.
Example: if you say, "make that yellow-orange cooler" and I believe it is THE warmest color, then I can go redder OR yellower. Likewise, tell me to "warm up" blue-violet, I would feel free to push the color towards red OR blue-green!

So, I maintain: the terminology may be useful to oneself and/or those "in harmony" with one's outlook, it is far less than an ideal tool ofr communication.

No intense offended!

Einion
09-02-2006, 11:01 AM
Likewise, tell me to "warm up" blue-violet, I would feel free to push the color towards red OR blue-green!
Exactly. Plus you could probably go toward grey also, many (most?) people would view that as warmer too.

Without qualification 'warm', 'cool', 'warmer' & 'cooler' just aren't precise enough.

No intense offended!
LOL

Einion

RainGrindlay
09-09-2006, 07:32 PM
Cool your orange with a touch of blue, be it cerulean, cobalt or ultramarine blue. It really depends on what you want it cooled for???

Mike Finn
09-12-2006, 06:44 AM
Having spent most of my life so far as a working photographer, this debate over colour temperature is somewhat confusing to me the painter. I spent many years having to control colour temp with regard to lighting and it's effect on colour emulsions. The fact is to cool a light source one adds heat to that source. The average yellowish light bulb is around 3200 degrees Kelvin. As you increase the temp to say around 5800 degrees Kelvin it gets bluer/cooler to approximate daylight. Take a reading with a colour temp meter in direct sunlight and 5800 degrees Kelvin will be about right.... take the reading in the shadow of a tree and it will be substantially higher. So cool is warm and warm is cool :)

So... it all comes down to our emotions... a fire, nice and bright orange creates a warm emotion cause we know a fire is warm.... An igloo set in the ice, which reflects a lot of blue sky creates a cool emotion, cause we know it's cold out there.

Some say white is the coolest colour on your palette, and I tend to agree, adding white to greens, especially for me, makes the greens bluer... but then again that may be because the added white reflects more blue of your light source. In actual fact it takes the most amount of applied heat to turn a black metal box white, so white is therefore the hottest colour on your palette.... Ohhh my giddy aunt :confused:

Mike Finn

WaltWally
09-13-2006, 02:36 AM
Hi, Mike, nice to meet you! Your comments are dead on! And here in the US, our slang has two expressions for "really great" -- COOL and HOT!!! So go figure!

Richard Saylor
09-13-2006, 07:28 AM
Hi, Mike, nice to meet you! Your comments are dead on! And here in the US, our slang has two expressions for "really great" -- COOL and HOT!!! So go figure!LOL! Good example. American slang can certainly be paradoxical. Among certain ethnic groups "bad" can essentially mean "good," depending on context.

Apparently, you just can't push "cool" and "warm" too far. They are useful terms for describing, for example, the comparative effect of adding blue or yellow, respectively, to a mixture. However, the terms become very problematic as superlatives. "Warmest" and "coolest" just don't seem to compute.

Richard