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jsr88
02-15-2002, 11:32 AM
Bj,
Hi...I'm Julie (jsr88). I have the book "Painting the Head in Oil" you referred to. If you'll let me exactly what you are looking for, I'll see if I can find the info you.

julie

Bonnie Jean
02-15-2002, 11:58 AM
Julie,
Thank you for responding to my question.Below is what I have from my notes on Sanden's Pallett. What I'm looking for is the information on the recipe of the Pro Mix colors. My orginal Portrait teacher said that the recipe was in his first book. She had had the book, but loaned it to a student years ago and never got the book back.
Bj


Sanden's Palette

Weber plus & assortment of Pro Mix colors

Permelba white (by Weber)
Cad Orange
Yellow Ochre ChromiumVerde Green
Burnt Sienna
Viridian
Burnt Umber
Cerulean Blue
Venetian Red
Ult Blue
Aliz Crim
Ivory Black
Cad Red Light
Plus ten Pro Mix colors

Mixtures:

Caucasian Skin: White, Yellow Orche, Cad Red Light, plus a touch of cerulean Blue

Black Skin: Viridian Red, Cad Orange, and Burnt Sienna for the middle tones combined with cool highlights and warm tones.

Oriental Skin: White, Yellow Orche, Burnt Umber, plus a touch of blue.

Bonnie Jean
02-15-2002, 12:01 PM
Ron,
Thank you for the book information. Any ideas on where a good place to find out of print books?
Bj

jsr88
02-15-2002, 12:07 PM
BJ,
My email addy is [email protected]
Please send me a quick post so I have yours to send the info to you. :)

julie

Mario
02-15-2002, 12:25 PM
You must get beyond a formula for human skin colors..it's OK as a starting point but geewiz how uncool can you get? The human skin is one of the most changeable and varied surfaces of color that you can find..observe and paint what you see.:o

Bonnie Jean
02-15-2002, 12:34 PM
Mario,
I agree that it is a good starting point and a learning point to see what others use and have used. Then from there you have to mix colors from looking at the skin of the subject and mixing to match.
Bj

Ron van den Boogaard
02-15-2002, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Bonnie Jean
Ron,
Thank you for the book information. Any ideas on where a good place to find out of print books?
Bj

I noticed that amazon.com they said they would do a search. If you type "Eric Hebborn"+"the art forgers handbook" into google it will take you to a few sites that apparently offer second hand copies.

btw, my copy is not for sale: not only does it provide valuable info on forgery, it is really great on some old techniques.

All I can say, thred very, very carefully. It is a highly controversial book. As was Hebborn.



Ron (http://home.wanadoo.nl/brainbox)

Ron van den Boogaard
02-15-2002, 02:29 PM
Ok there is no formula for skin colour, but in the old days when I still did realism, I did an underpainting with greens (the complementary) and also darkened skin colours with it. Made it a bit more vibrant.

Ron (http://www.fine-art.com/members/21015)

Scott Methvin
03-05-2002, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by Ron van den Boogaard
Ok there is no formula for skin colour, but in the old days when I still did realism, I did an underpainting with greens (the complementary) and also darkened skin colours with it. Made it a bit more vibrant.

Ron (http://www.fine-art.com/members/21015)

This makes excellent human skin:

monotone under painting-violet is good
terre verde over dried monotone
lead white mixed with genuine vermillion
a transparent yellow for accent last

Done correctly, these are all the colors you need.
The trick is to use the underpainted green to make your flesh go neutral. It's like magic.

Mario
03-06-2002, 02:15 PM
Could you show us an example of this? please:rolleyes:

Raffaele
03-06-2002, 06:33 PM
Be careful there Mario Ö.. your treading on dangerous waters. Asking about terre verde, green underpaintings, vermilion (genuine to boot). Could it be that someone can actually do something impressive with this method. No it canít be, why that would classify them up there with what the old goats used to do. God forbid!;)

Scott Methvin
03-06-2002, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Mario
Could you show us an example of this? please:rolleyes:

Sure, I have a digital camera. I need someone to tell me step by step how to post a photo.

You guys seem a little skeptical. :rolleyes:

impressionist2
03-08-2002, 08:19 AM
Scott wrote: "This makes excellent human skin:

monotone under painting-violet is good
terre verde over dried monotone
lead white mixed with genuine vermillion
a transparent yellow for accent last

Done correctly, these are all the colors you need.
The trick is to use the underpainted green to make your flesh go neutral. It's
like magic."




This is identical to my palette. If you use this combo you cannot miss. Here's one in progress, nearly done painted with that palette. Looking forward to seeing one of your paintings, Scott.

Just use the browse feature below and open your image file and presto, we'll all be able to see your work.

Renee

impressionist2
03-08-2002, 08:22 AM
Sorry, the message posted twice.

Scott Methvin
03-08-2002, 11:23 AM
I am going to try and post 4 photos. This is a painting in progress and I have some old pics I can use to illustrate the green flesh technique. The painting is 40 inches tall and 60 inches wide. I hope the colors look alright. There are a few figures that are green in this first one.


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Mar-2002/aa.jpg

Scott Methvin
03-08-2002, 11:48 AM
Took me 1/2 hour to figure the pic posting out. Here is #2, a detail.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Mar-2002/ee.jpg

Scott Methvin
03-08-2002, 11:51 AM
This is a close up of the large figure on the right's chest and arm. It is in a halfway state. If you look at his necklace, that was the original green undercolor of the flesh.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Mar-2002/ff.jpg

Scott Methvin
03-08-2002, 11:55 AM
Here is a detail of the same boy's leg. Not finished, but close.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Mar-2002/gg.jpg

All these pictures look fuzzy on my screen, can you guys see them ok? I may be using too large of a format?

Scott Methvin
03-08-2002, 12:04 PM
Maybe this step will come out better...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Mar-2002/cc.jpg

Scott Methvin
03-08-2002, 12:42 PM
I am having trouble figuring out how to scale my pictures, so that they look good posted. here is a close up that may or may not come out better. It is incomplete, but the flesh tones are maybe easier to see.
Sorry for all the experimentation, but i have a new toy now. Maybe tommorow a tiny head!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Mar-2002/ab.jpg

this face is about 1 inch tall or so.

Scott Methvin
03-11-2002, 11:55 AM
Here are some more pics. All are still in progress and not complete. (tried to put them inside earlier posts, but it won't let you edit a few days later.)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Mar-2002/jjj.jpg

Detail of chest (compare with earlier version)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Mar-2002/hh.jpg

Scott Methvin
03-11-2002, 12:00 PM
http:www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Mar-2002/iii.jpg

Comments?

Mario
03-11-2002, 01:18 PM
Thanks Scott! nice details. I am not experienced with this process and so I'm asking if it is simular to one of the methods from the "How to paint like the old masters" book by Sheppard?
If you are familiar with this book it would save us both a lot of words and I'll just look it up and then go over your posts again.
So far, I'm getting that the children, playing in the sand, were underpainted first in a color complimentary to the final skin colors.
I like the modeling that you got with the light and darker tones and am very interested in any more comments you would care to make about that aspect. thanks again

islandwoman
03-11-2002, 01:23 PM
:clap: This requires a long list of superlatives starting with outstanding.

Scott Methvin
03-11-2002, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Mario
Thanks Scott! nice details. I am not experienced with this process and so I'm asking if it is simular to one of the methods from the "How to paint like the old masters" book by Sheppard?
If you are familiar with this book it would save us both a lot of words and I'll just look it up and then go over your posts again.
So far, I'm getting that the children, playing in the sand, were underpainted first in a color complimentary to the final skin colors.
I like the modeling that you got with the light and darker tones and am very interested in any more comments you would care to make about that aspect. thanks again

Mario,

Although it is a bit un-nerving to post an unfinished painting, I put these out to help show the process I have developed. Sheppard is a more direct method than I use. (I have his book) I start with a drawing, build the drawing into a value study and start the modeling with a generous amount of lead white. I let that dry and using the undercolor, fill in the object.

The values have already been established before this color step. Most of the work is already done. The color is put down in a very controlled way, little by little. You have to know how it will turn out before you can do this. The trick is just the right blend of opposition colors until they start to go neutral. Vermillion and lead white are colors that make really nice looking flesh. I use a limited pallette that consists of only 6 different pigments. After a few years of using them, I know what they will do in combination with each other. Particle size and transparency are important.

The complexion can be tweaked by the amount of yelow in the under greenish color. The other boy's face is a much paler complexion. I will have to build it in a different way.

The real key to this technique is scumbling the lead white. You can't get this effect with any other white pigment. A thin glaze of the lead white over a darker color will make a perfect violet-ish color that looks like it does on flesh. This peculiar property goes back and forth. Too much and it cools off, just the right amount, and it looks almost like abalone shell. Really good kolynski brushes help too. You can scrub in darks with a bright bristle, but the finishing coat needs to be soft.

I spend most of my time working on the intermediate tones/values. Darks and lights are easy, it is the 20%-70% tones in a painting that make the final darks and highlights look good.

I hope some of that made sense. If you are interested, I will continue to post more photos as I finish up this complicated painting. I think I can finish it in about 2 more weeks. I am saving the easy stuff for last. So far, the hardest part is the sand. Sand seems to be a lot like flesh. It isn't one color, but the whole spectrum. I still haven't nailed it yet.

Scott Methvin
03-11-2002, 02:47 PM
Thanks Islandwoman.

Mario
03-12-2002, 07:19 PM
Didn't I hear once that "additive" and "subtractive" was the difference between the systems and the reason why it wouldn't work in Oils???
:confused:

impressionist2
03-13-2002, 09:49 PM
Scott, I like the first painting of the two boys in the pile of sand a Lot. That is so interesting with the green undercoat. I just took in a new commission of two brothers and I think I will start like that. Is that an ice green you used? That's how it's showing up on my monitor.

Your painting style matches your slogan, esp. the part about patience and industry. I hope you will post that painting when it is done. Very nice hillside in the background.

Renee

Scott Methvin
03-13-2002, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by impressionist2
Scott, I like the first painting of the two boys in the pile of sand a Lot. That is so interesting with the green undercoat. I just took in a new commission of two brothers and I think I will start like that. Is that an ice green you used? That's how it's showing up on my monitor.

Your painting style matches your slogan, esp. the part about patience and industry. I hope you will post that painting when it is done. Very nice hillside in the background.

Renee

Hi Renee,

Thank you for your nice comments. The green is a mixture of thalo blue, OH yellow, lead white and terre verde. Plain terre verde is to dirt-like. I like smaller pigment particles.

Here is another shot of the hill from 3 weeks ago. I'll take some new shots in a few days.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Mar-2002/a.JPG

birdlady
03-14-2002, 12:10 PM
Scott ..when you started the painting you used the verdaccio method but with your mix of green? I keep seeing people using the lead white ..is it due to transparency? anything lead scares me.


*Vermillion and lead white are colors that make really nice looking flesh. I use a limited palette that consists of only 6 different pigments*

could you list these or did I miss it in reading?

I love the looks of the boys ..I am really pulled into this painting and am going to follow this thread to see the finished work. Especially how you do the sand..I find that a real challenge.

Laurie

Scott Methvin
03-15-2002, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by birdlady
Scott ..anything lead scares me.


*Vermillion and lead white are colors that make really nice looking flesh. I use a limited palette that consists of only 6 different pigments*

could you list these or did I miss it in reading?

I love the looks of the boys ..I am really pulled into this painting and am going to follow this thread to see the finished work. Especially how you do the sand..I find that a real challenge.

Laurie

Thanks Laurie,

The sand is the hard part for me. Don't be afraid of lead, it is wonderful stuff to paint with. I never use titanium. It dries too slow.

Grumbacher Pre-Tested thalo blue
quinacridone red-magenta(Daniel Smith)
Old Holland gambooge lake extra
vermillion (Kremer)
Old Holland terre verde
lead white (Kremer)

(In this painting I also use Naples yellow genuine-Kremer)

I will post some update photos this weekend.

artbabe21
03-17-2002, 10:18 PM
Scott---have enjoyed the photos of your work and your color process explanations { looks like Laguna hillside to me!} Your work is superlative! I have read serveral posts over the last few days about lead white and that it isn't dangerous contrary to what my only information has been. Is the drying time the main factor in using this white or are there others? Also where can Kremer brand paints be found? thanks for your generosity in taking the time to share all this excellent information!
Cathleen~

Scott Methvin
03-18-2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by artbabe21
Scott---have enjoyed the photos of your work and your color process explanations { looks like Laguna hillside to me!} Your work is superlative! I have read serveral posts over the last few days about lead white and that it isn't dangerous contrary to what my only information has been. Is the drying time the main factor in using this white or are there others? Also where can Kremer brand paints be found? thanks for your generosity in taking the time to share all this excellent information!
Cathleen~

Hi Cathleen,

Thanks for the nice comments. I was going to post new pictures last weekend, but my oldest dog just passed away and we have had other things on our mind.

Lead carbonate is an ancient pigment that is the main ingredient in 100% of paintings before 1840. Then they invented zinc, or chinese white. Titanium came on the market around 1935.

Of these three white pigments, lead is the only one that has a natural built in drier. This quality is quickly apparent to the painter who uses it. The paint will dry to an almost taffy-like viscousity, which will allow overpainting within an hour. Titanium or zinc will not let you do this. Van Gogh's techniques, along with thoses of many other painters can not be duplicated without the flake white.

Lead white used to refer to the primer used on canvas only. The thinner, tube version is flake white. Cremnitz white is an altogether different process that was named after the town in Czecholslovakia. Today, all theses names mean the same basic lead carbonate.

It is one of the easiest paints to hand mull. With a pallette knife and a flat hard non porous surface, any competent painter can make a small quantity of flake white for daily use. This homemade is invaribly better in all respects to the store bought brands.

Once you use the real stuff, that dries the way it is supposed to, you'll have a hard time going back to the best lower quality types available in the stores. It mixes in a different way than the other 2 whites and adds an overall quality that is hard to describe. The tube kinds have lots of additives to make it more like all the other types of paint in the maker's line. This affects the drying speed and the handling qualities. A good thick lead white does not age that well in the tube. It tends to stiffen further and is hard to squeeze out, without pliers. This stiff paint can then be worked a little with a pallette knife and made "buttery" for use.

So, if you think you have tried real flake white before by using OH or WN brands in the tube, think again. They are very different paints from the kind you can make yourself.

The dry pigment is a hazardous substance. If you breathe in the dust it will accumulate in your bone marrow and cause a variety of medical problems. Children are far more prone to lead poisoning than adults. Adults seem able to pass it through the system easier. The pigment is almost like a damp flour, although not as fine. There are many dry pigments that are easier to raise airbourne dust particles. Simple precautions, like closing doors to prevent gusts of air and wearing a damp bandanna around your nose and mouth is suffiecient to protect you from breathing in any dust. Once you add the oil, and the dust danger is gone, the lead is much safer to work with. It doesn't pass through skin, unless you have a cut.

Anyone that has more questions, can email me in private.


http://www.kremer-pigmente.de/englisch/homee.htm

http://studioproducts.com

(2 very good sites that sell basic lead carbonate.)

artbabe21
03-19-2002, 12:27 AM
thanks Scott for that thorough explanation of lead white---however I don't think I will be making my own pigments at this stage of my return to painting, but will file it away for later. Thanks for the web sites. So sorry about your loss, animals become like family members, it's never easy.
Cathleen~