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jenrou
03-12-2002, 11:29 PM
An an art teacher last summer, gave us pieces of Tyvek building material to paint on. Tyvek is the layer of material covering homes before siding is added. This teacher once was a consultant of some type for Dupont, and said that Dupont wanted to market Tyvek to use a type of canvas, some years ago, but there wasn't a market for it.
She had the rolls of unprinted Tyvek from the tests, and now Tyvek is only made with the name printed on it. However,,,,I've been eyeing builder's sites, and there are large spaces of white on the coverings the builders use. Scraps????
She said that it was practically indestructable, and any paint, pastel, etc., but especially acrylics could be used.
She also in past years worked for Golden. (she is in her 70's or 80's now and was a student of Whitney and Pike and other)
I tried it, and it is similar to painting on a type cloth, but it has a hard surface. One side is a little softer, and abrades. I tried masking fluid on the softer side and it soaked in and made a rough place.
Here are two pieces that I placed colors on. The first is acrylic, and the second is watercolor. The acrylic is on the harder side, and the watercolor is on the softer side.I may have to make two messages!
Sorry for the long message, but I wanted you to know as much as she told me.
Acrylic:

jenrou
03-12-2002, 11:31 PM
As you can see, the color is off some, because Tyvek is white.

CarlyHardy
03-13-2002, 05:39 PM
I haven't seen this...but my husband is in the building business! When you say it comes in rolls...is that how they sell it? How thick is it?
carly

jenrou
03-13-2002, 07:36 PM
Carley, the workshop teacher said it was in rolls, and I've seen it on houses being built before they put the siding on. It has large printed 'TYVEK' all over it, but lots of white in between. the piece I have is similar to canvas, after it's been primed, but you can tell it is a synthetic product.
I have a small sample I can send you if you want. It also reminds me a little of some stiffer fusible material from the sewing shop, but it has a canvas like texture.
From what I understand, it's a thin version of a kevlar type of product that they make for bullet proof vests.
When I go to the Hardware store I'll look and see if it is the same thing I have a sample of.
It's different, but the colors run on it just like on water color paper. The acrylic will run or stay, depending on how wet. It would really wear your brushes out.
She said it could be used for pastels also.
If you can get pieces of scrap, I'd say it would definetly be worth it. I've got my husband checking with his builder buddies.:D

VictoriaS
04-09-2002, 03:29 PM
Tyvek like the envelopes? Same stuff?

jenrou
04-09-2002, 07:21 PM
The envelopes are made by the same company, I believe. The piece of Tyvek that I got from the art teacher is a texture similar to the woven interfacings/fusible stuff in fabric stores.
A carpenter told me he is familiar with it, but in home building it usually has the plastic-feeling Tyvek stuff over it.
I still haven't asked at the home improvement stores.

mansuri
04-11-2002, 12:35 PM
I called home depot and lowes. The prices are about the same and they sell it in rolls of
10 X 150 for 158
9 X 150 for 135

Much cheaper than canvas. Could be worth trying. Now if I can only get a decent size sample to paint on. If you dont have to size it and it is durable enough this could be worthwile. Thanks jenrou.

-Man

mansuri
04-11-2002, 12:56 PM
More info:

FAQ:
http://www.tyvek.com/na/graphics/english/faq.htm

This is an excellent site.
Call Dupont at 1-800-44-TYVEK

They are very helpful and will give you a swatchbook to see what you may need.

-Man

VictoriaS
04-11-2002, 02:09 PM
Thanks for that link, Man. Something new I gotta try.

Victoria

nailbender
04-17-2002, 11:09 PM
Tyvek is a product that is designed to let mosture through, but not let air penetrate, Keeping the hous dry and stopping wind. Does anyone know the acid content. and how this would last over the years? Bob

paintfool
04-19-2002, 06:24 AM
If it doesn't allow air to penetrate i would be concerned about using oil paints on it because the under layers of paint would probably remain a bit too wet. However i think it might be a very good choice for other mediums providing that it doesn't contain acids, as Bob mentioned. It's more than likely that it doesn't contain acid but possibly formaldehyde as a preservative. A lot of building materials do. I think this stuff would be almost indistructble. :)

Luka
05-30-2004, 07:42 AM
Has anyone tried this by now ?

I spent 26 years in the building business. I have experience with tyvek, and I have spent many hours discussing the pros and cons of it with fellow builders.

Things I can tell you...

It is a plastic product. Like nylon or polyester. Not woven.

It allows both air and water to flow through. Much too much, in both cases, to be used by serious builders, who are concerned about their long-term reputation... on any house they build.

If cedar is laid directly on tyvek, it will in short time, eat holes in the tyvek. I don't think tyvek has any acids in it, itself. But it is certainly very quickly affected by tannins and acids in other materials.

Many "new" homes have had drastic rot, mold and mildew problems because of tyvek. They have to have the siding and tyvek removed. The framing underneath treated, then tarpaper, and new siding put back on.

But it sure works wonders as envelopes, and hopefully now, as canvas...

:D

KPowe
05-30-2004, 10:30 PM
The Tyvek applications that I've seen are in medical device manufacturing. Tyvek is used in numerous ways to protect the product from dust and bacteria while allowing it to "breathe". My understanding is the holes are big enough for molecules, but not big enough for bacteria and dust.

And there are those tyvek bunny suits that you can get in the automotive and paint departments to keep paint, oil, and such off your good clothes.

Luka
05-31-2004, 01:17 AM
The Tyvek applications that I've seen are in medical device manufacturing. Tyvek is used in numerous ways to protect the product from dust and bacteria while allowing it to "breathe". My understanding is the holes are big enough for molecules, but not big enough for bacteria and dust.

And there are those tyvek bunny suits that you can get in the automotive and paint departments to keep paint, oil, and such off your good clothes.

Yes. You are correct.

Tyvek is not woven. Whatever material it is made of, (polyester and/or nylon, I think), Is sprayed in a fine stream from the nozzels of a machine. Over and over again, until they have full coverage.

They can put more material on there, and have it almost impervious, or they can put less on, and essentially have a net.

I believe that what goes into envelopes, clean suits, etc, is made to a much finer grade than tyvek housewrap. On two different professional homebuilders sites, it has been discussed to death. And it is obvious that the rougher stuff that is used for housewrap is a more open form. It does allow water and air through. And does do so in a quantity that is not good for a house.

It really has been the cause of much hullabaloo in the professional building circles, because of that.

Now, after they were called on the carpet by Fine Homebuilding, and Journal of Light Construction both... I would think they may have changed it to not be so open by now. So if you are going to try tyvek for painting on, you may want to find some of the older scraps.

Fine homebuilding and journal of light construction, apart from being the two top publishers for the building community, have websites that are the "wet canvases" of the building world. Breaktime forum, from Fine Homebuilding is open to just about anyone that registers. As long as the rules are followed. JLC's forum, is supposedly restricted to participation only by professional builders.

I think I might go and stir up the battle again by asking if tyvek housewrap has changed. ;)

Enchanted
05-31-2004, 10:30 AM
Tyvek is not woven. Whatever material it is made of, (polyester and/or nylon, I think)
TyvekŪ is 100% high density polyethylene (HDPE) and therefore readily recycled with HDPE waste streams.

While looking it up on the Web, I found a neat site for making your own sailboat sail from Tyvek - the stuff used to wrap houses in.

For artists who sail... (http://www.boat-links.com/Tyvek/)

Luka
05-31-2004, 02:27 PM
TyvekŪ is 100% high density polyethylene (HDPE) and therefore readily recycled with HDPE waste streams.

While looking it up on the Web, I found a neat site for making your own sailboat sail from Tyvek - the stuff used to wrap houses in.

For artists who sail... (http://www.boat-links.com/Tyvek/)

Wow !

Thanks !

:D

KPowe
06-01-2004, 12:03 AM
Oooh, kites, anyone? I can see gorgeous painted kites coming from this conversation. I guess we could have some lovely sails, too.

Luka
06-01-2004, 05:13 AM
Oooh, kites, anyone? I can see gorgeous painted kites coming from this conversation. I guess we could have some lovely sails, too.

Yes !!!!

Guuurrrrllllll, yer gunna get me in trooouble.....

:evil:

kblack
06-01-2004, 12:38 PM
Hi! I have been a manager to a plumbing & heating wholesale business for 16 years and have heard many discussions between builders about TYvek. It is not stable for long term use. Our neighbor just remove his siding to add an addition and the tyvek was in shreds. Disinigrated with in 10 years. I would not paint on it. As to using it for kites. Polyethylene is not uv radiation stable... which means it breaks down in sunlight faster. That's why it's placed under siding. Or you have seen houses where they got their siding up ? And the Tyvek is starting to shred?

Hope this helps!
Kblack

Luka
06-01-2004, 01:37 PM
Hi! I have been a manager to a plumbing & heating wholesale business for 16 years and have heard many discussions between builders about TYvek. It is not stable for long term use. Our neighbor just remove his siding to add an addition and the tyvek was in shreds. Disinigrated with in 10 years. I would not paint on it. As to using it for kites. Polyethylene is not uv radiation stable... which means it breaks down in sunlight faster. That's why it's placed under siding. Or you have seen houses where they got their siding up ? And the Tyvek is starting to shred?

Hope this helps!
Kblack

Putting tyvek on, and then never getting the siding up, is a definate no-no. It definately breaks down in sunlight faster. (You are better off with a tarpaper shack. LOL) But even this seems to take at least a year to happen.

Aren't milk jugs made of the same thing ? I used water filled milk jugs one time, to weight down a tarp. Strung the tarp, filled the jugs with water, and tied them to the grommet holes. Those jugs lasted most of 4 years, before the sunlight made them so brittle that the handles broke.

And that was with the weight, (8 pounds), of the water in them. Plus the being beaten around in even moderate winds, etc. (Even moderate winds will cause a tarp to lift and throw around a lot of weight...)

Other jugs, kept inside... and by nature of their use, usually out of direct sunlight, last virtually forever...

I do believe that the reason it shreds and breaks down, while under siding, is because of the acids and tannins in the wood around it. Yes, the wood is moist on both sides of the tyvek. In at least a cyclic manner. This causes the acid and tannins to be leached from the wood.


All that being said... I wonder if gessoing it both sides before stretching. Then re-gessoing both sides, stretcher and all, after stretching, would sufficiently block the sunlight.

Gessoing the stretchers and all would ensure that no moisture got to the wood, so the deliterious effects of wet wood would not likely be a problem. Better yet, use a plastic or aluminum frame...

Plus, most paintings are kept out of direct sunlight anyway... They are mostly kept in "conditioned air" settings. The seasonal differences inside a home, office, studio, etc, are far different than the seasonal differences it experiences while stapled to the side of a house. Siding or no.


Thinking about it, it would certainly make for a lighter finished product than canvas. Even with all that gesso.

kblack
06-01-2004, 02:19 PM
Luka,
Might work with Gesso , but I would like to know how long it would last.
Has anyone already tried it and how long ?
It would be a real shame to sell something to a customer and have it
come apart even after 10 - 15 years because the "canvas" failed.
I hope my work lasts 100 years plus.

So I'll guess I'll wait and see.
Kblack

Luka
06-01-2004, 02:37 PM
Luka,
Might work with Gesso , but I would like to know how long it would last.
Has anyone already tried it and how long ?
It would be a real shame to sell something to a customer and have it
come apart even after 10 - 15 years because the "canvas" failed.
I hope my work lasts 100 years plus.

So I'll guess I'll wait and see.
Kblack

I was thinking exactly the same thing.

:)

But you know, if no one ever tries it, no one will ever know, will they ?

;)

Not many of us are going to be alive for another 100 years, to find out whether it lasts or not. If they find that it does, in 100 years, it will be too late for us. But a good deal for them. Of course, by then, they may have developed a much better material. Probably something that we couldn't even imagine right now. :)

I have tried to argue both sides here. If you are going to try something new, it is better to go in knowing as many of the pros and cons as possible. I have basically concluded that it is at least worth a try. In due time, probably sometime before winter, I will get a piece of tyvek, of the house wrap kind, and try it. Probably with acrylics.

I would never sell something like that without the customer knowing in full detail what the risk is. I know some people who would buy it, regardless. With full knowledge. If they liked the work...

But I would have to be brutally honest about it, because I have to sleep with my conscience. ;)

Most likely I will try it a few times, then just keep the pieces around forever to see what happens...

kblack
06-01-2004, 03:38 PM
True.. how true. someone has to be the first. ;)
But it's good to sleep at night! I respect that alot.

It's like I see a lot of painting projects on masonite board.
(Pressed fibre) I'm not sold on that either. I've seen what moisture does to
that board. So I pretty much stick to painting on wood panels and ceramic bisque or once in a while a canvas or hot pressed board by crescent (but that mostly for practice) .

Still interested in seeing how well Tyvek tacks to a frame though.
Stretching wise. Especially with the weight of gesso.

Kblack

KPowe
06-01-2004, 08:55 PM
Yes !!!!

Guuurrrrllllll, yer gunna get me in trooouble.....

:evil:
Who is worried about kites lasting very long? Eventually, a tree or something eats them anyway.

They sure could be pretty while flying high. :angel:

Enchanted
06-01-2004, 09:03 PM
Aren't milk jugs made of the same thing ? I used water filled milk jugs one time, to weight down a tarp. Strung the tarp, filled the jugs with water, and tied them to the grommet holes. Those jugs lasted most of 4 years, before the sunlight made them so brittle that the handles broke.

If you want a good education in what breaks down environmentally and what doesn't, join one of the roadside trash pickup volunteer groups. I carry a long stick with a large nail in the end with which I jab everything from aluminum cans to plastic cups - doesn't work for glass. Saves all that bending - except for glass!! In any event, there are many plastics that will simply disintegrate when you try to poke them. While I've seen some industrious soles bend over and pick up the shards, I simply move on, assured that the continued disintegration will eventually return "dust to dust."

Luka
06-02-2004, 01:21 AM
If you want a good education in what breaks down environmentally and what doesn't, join one of the roadside trash pickup volunteer groups. I carry a long stick with a large nail in the end with which I jab everything from aluminum cans to plastic cups - doesn't work for glass. Saves all that bending - except for glass!! In any event, there are many plastics that will simply disintegrate when you try to poke them. While I've seen some industrious soles bend over and pick up the shards, I simply move on, assured that the continued disintegration will eventually return "dust to dust."

Whuf ! I'm impressed.

Big kudos on that !!!

Roadside conditions are also much more caustic than a living room, or even under the siding on a house. But... it is a very good indicator, and as you say, obviously a very good classroom on the subject.

Luka
06-02-2004, 01:28 AM
Who is worried about kites lasting very long? Eventually, a tree or something eats them anyway.

They sure could be pretty while flying high. :angel:

Exactly what I was thinking.

I don't remember ever having a kite that lasted more than a few weeks anyway.

:)

If it survives being flown, I would bet that hanging it in the living room will keep it around for several years.

Enchanted
06-02-2004, 11:15 AM
I don't remember ever having a kite that lasted more than a few weeks anyway.

Oh my... This is getting a bit off topic for the group but I just had to tell you about a memory you triggered with the kite talk. When I was in my teen years it was right after WWII and there was lots of Army Surplus stuff for sale. My buddy and I acquired these huge box kites that had aluminum tubing frames and some sort of cloth for the boxy part. These kites were designed to be used by downed aircraft pilots at sea, who could use them for carrying aloft a radio antenna from their life raft.

These kites took a strong wind to keep them flying, and it took more than just kite string to contain them, and I don't recall what we used - it wasn't wire though. We knew better than that. But what we did do was attach a small kerosene lantern with red glass and fly the kite on windy nights, which was frequently in the desert SW in spring. Now this is before anyone heard the first story about UFO's, and we got some press coverage because people who saw the red light bobbing about in the sky were calling the police, etc.

kblack
06-02-2004, 11:46 AM
Originally Posted by Luka
I don't remember ever having a kite that lasted more than a few weeks anyway.

I should learn to have more fun when I paint :) ... I have never really thought about painting on disposable items before. I work 50 hours a week at the wholesale plumbing place and only get to paint on a couple nights or a weekend so I pretty much only use the standard painting surfaces when I do.

You've given me something to consider
Kblack

Luka
06-02-2004, 05:50 PM
I should learn to have more fun when I paint :) ... I have never really thought about painting on disposable items before. I work 50 hours a week at the wholesale plumbing place and only get to paint on a couple nights or a weekend so I pretty much only use the standard painting surfaces when I do.

You've given me something to consider
Kblack

Good !

Keeping it fun, instead of letting it get compulsive, is why I am waiting until my "studio", (porch. LOL), is finished. If I get started in earnest in here, it will become compulsive quickly. (Ok, ok, anal. LOL) It took years for me to break that the last time. I don't want to chance going there again.

As for the masonite, I am right behind you on that one !!! That stuff is made of ground up wood, glued together. It's like particle board only the wood is almost powder, and the resins are a bit different.

When I moved out here to Washington, the first job I had was with a huge building company. They were so huge they had their own designers, engineers, draftsmen, etc.

I made foreman really fast because I was always showing people the right way to do stuff, instead of just the fast or cheap way. And mostly because I was always pointing out things that would fail... and they always did.

I would tell the boss, he would tell his superiors, and the engineers would grumble and say, THEY were the engineers, I was just a nobody, they knew what they were doing.

After about the third time that I gave warning, they poo ppo'd it, and it failed exactly as I said it would... My immediate boss went to the owner and told him. Then reported the next warning directly to him. Nothing was done, it failed as I said, and then the owner came to me, made me foreman, and told me to tell him directly the next time.

This was cool. They actually heeded my warning, and used my fixes from then on. Until......

The company made a huge investnment in masonite siding. I had a coniption fit !!! I told everyone in no uncertain terms, that no matter how the masonite was "manufactured"... No matter whether it was primed all sides before install, then painted after install... no matter about all their othe assertions, the stuff was going to fail, and do so catastrophically.

I toled them exactly how it would fail, and said that it would fail almost anywhere but the desert. It would ESPECIALLY fail here in the northwet.

They had made too big an investment and couldn't get their money back, so they put it up anyway. I almost lost my job when I refused to have any part in it.

About 5 or 6 years later... I was no longer with the company, but I heard from some others there, that the siding had failed exactly the way I said it would.... and the company was in a lot of very big lawsuits over it.

For me, masonite is a given. I will not paint on it, because I know it's nature. But tyvek is still an unknown. I believe that when it fails, it fails because of conditions it will never see when treated as a canvas, and then a painting. Seal it up completely, with gesso, and it should be ok.

You could seal masonite as well, and maybe if sealed just right, and then treated correctly afterward, it might last as well. But it would take more than gesso to seal masonite correctly. And once done, I don't think I'd like working with it anyway. So, I'll stick with experimenting with the tyvek when I get the chance.

You see.... I do tend to get drawn into the technicalities. ;)

I have to leave the technicalities where they belong, and to have fun when it comes to creating. An ongoing learning process.

kblack
06-02-2004, 06:08 PM
Luka, LOL! you are talking to the queen of anal! That's what my husband says anyway. that's why I'm General Manager. I'm so into details and technicality that when a large company came into to see if they wanted to purchase us they figured it would take 4 people to replace me! too costly - so it goes. Too bad I coiuldn'e get paid for 4 people though. I'm waiting for my "studio" to be finished too... it's a basement kind of, sort of, added on room. At least I have 3 windows.

I know all about Masonite - living in Pa there's a Masonite factory about 26 miles from here. Lots of works got laid off after the lawsuits.

Will try to have more fun ! :) Promise :) (Even that sounds a tad bit compulsive too LOL!

Luka
06-02-2004, 06:22 PM
Note in journal...

Be spontaneous. (Put on to-do list)