When Paint Dries During Alla Prima Painting

[argb]

Hello All,

I hope to spend much more time in this forum. I've recently made a transition from "layered" oil painting to alla prima or direct painting which of course includes plein air.

My question isn't directly related to plein air painting, but I'm sure some of you will have something to offer on the subject as you're bound to spend time in the studio.

How to best phrase this? I'm working as I said with direct painting, but I'm occassionally running into paintings (larger or more detailed) that can't be completed while the paint is wet. As you know, this changes some of the technical aspects, especially related to working forground into background - edge quality and so forth.

Have any of you come up with any specific approaches to help with similar problems? I used to paint a layer knowing it was just preparation for the next layer and built subsequent layers until complete, but as I'm painting now in the way I would paint the final layers (directly), it's nothing more than an inconvenience when the paint begins to get tacky and catch the brush, potentially forming those ugly, clotted areas after a couple of days. Should I just set it aside, let it dry then rework the area that dried on me before? Seems that this could be a vicious circle.

Does this makes sense? If not, let me know and I'll try to clarify.

I didn't post this in the oil forum because I know many if not most in that forum use a deliberate layering technique. To shed a little more light on what I'm aiming for, I study work by Richard Schmid, Zorn, Sargent etc - I'm sure you know that group - all were plein air painters as well as studio painters. Many artists seem to put all of them together.

Actually, Sargent is probably the man who has the answer to this question, as I know he was a direct painter who also spent weeks on an individual work. I'll see what I can find about his technique, but in the meantime I hope some of you might have suggestions. Hope it isn't too confusing - might be one of those obvious answers I just needed to see on paper to understand.

Thanks in advance.

[Donald_Smith]

Hi,

I have a few questions, hope you don't mind. I don't normally paint in layers, I used acrylics and WSoils or oils.

1) Alla Prima paintings are painted in one session, if you're using oil paints they don't usually dry that fast unless you're adding a LOT of cobalt or some other drier mixed into your paint. So my question is, what medium are you adding?

2) Can you post a close up photo of an area you're having problems with? and explain what it is specifically in that area or areas you have questions about.

You note sounded like you are working on the same painting over several days and that is why the paint is starting to dry. But instead of using a medium over the top of the drying paint, you just use your regular oils. Am I not reading your comments right?

Sorry for all the questions, but I like to make sure I understand where a person is coming from before I answer a question these days. Maybe some of the more experienced painters will know exactly where you're coming from and be able to answer promptly.

Don

[LarrySeiler]

I'll sometimes touch up a spot that needs a bit more finishing if the light changed so much or I'm having difficult seeing because the session simply got too dark for me to see to judge rightly. Those works finished on the spot and require no more work would be more rightly called alla prima.

But that technical wording aside...

I use Garrett's copal medium when I paint...my block in with turps feeling near dry to touch by the time I clean off my palette and premix my paints for the finishing over painting.

Two drops approximately per one inch ribbon of paint out of the tube (37ml generally speaking), then mixed well to a buttery state.

To white...putting out nearly three times as much, I'll add 8 drops approximately. My painting feels nearly dry to touch in about three days time from the copal.

IF I do some touch up...I'll mix half the copal I originally did to some paint, and paint over with no difficulties at all...and leave to dry.

In traditional uses of copal back in the Renaissance era...artists painted a layer of copal over the dried painting...to wet and then painted pigments directly into the wet layer, suspending particles and paint strokes. They'd let that dry, then apply another layer of copal and paint into that. Often as many as 20-30 layers.

Not sure the actual medium Rembrandt used, but his layers would be tacky and he intentionally dragged a brush over it to raise texture and rough areas. To these he'd apply glazes to fill in and then wipe over leaving deposits of pigment. He'd have near 30 layers though, and in walking up to his paintings you can see actual pigment suspended in layers producing incredible depth and transluscency.

Since copal dries very hard you don't want a flexible support, for if copal ever cracks that is the reason...not a deficit in the medium itself. At least where these masters used copal to apply layers.

For alla prima though, simply a few drops is no issue, panel or flexible support.

For some that use no medium...its a matter of letting the painting dry thoroughly, then perhaps applying a touch of Stand oil to the surface before adding more paint. That way you avoid the tackiness you refer to.

In time...you'll paint so stinkin' fast on location that it becomes a near non issue really.

Larry

[ColorMyWorld]

I thought I remembered reading something about working into a dry painting in Richard Schmid's book "Alla Prima paintings".
I had borrowed the book to read so don't have it to check.
Can anyone with the book easily find that section?

[argb]

1) Alla Prima paintings are painted in one session, if you're using oil paints they don't usually dry that fast unless you're adding a LOT of cobalt or some other drier mixed into your paint. So my question is, what medium are you adding?

Guess I thought of Alla Prima as usually painted in one session, but what you say makes sense. I can't phrase what I mean, exactly, I just know there is a romance to direct painting that I want to impart into all of my work, but it shows when the work was created by building layers, and in my opinion it isn't as beautiful. I want to understand how to accomplish this appearance in more complex works than what my present ability can finish in a day. I think it was informally called Bravura painting?

I use oil paint with Gamsol as my only medium.

2) Can you post a close up photo of an area you're having problems with? and explain what it is specifically in that area or areas you have questions about.

You note sounded like you are working on the same painting over several days and that is why the paint is starting to dry. But instead of using a medium over the top of the drying paint, you just use your regular oils. Am I not reading your comments right?

It might be good to post a photo - I'll try that. It's a half figure and the section in question is the face. I let the paint get to think around the neck, and it was beginning to be sticky and a hair from unsightly, so I set it aside to dry. I do just use the same oils over the spots that start to dry, in regards to your question about returning to my work, I don't rub oil over it or anything.

So, ideally it would stay wet but I'm not good enough yet to get it right quickly enough - maybe that's part of being able to paint Alla Prima, although I rea;lly though Sargent's work was considered direct painting, and Schmid also mentioned at least one painting that took 9 days.

I appreciate your questions for clarification.

I use Garrett's copal medium when I paint...my block in with turps feeling near dry to touch by the time I clean off my palette and premix my paints for the finishing over painting.

Ahh, so if I understand correctly, you let your block-in dry quickly so you can go to the final layer immediately? That makes sense.

Thanks for the informative post, Larry, I'm going to read it again and try to comment more. The problem I;m having more specifically is I'm working on a face, and we all know how many adjustments can be involved and I'm determined to make this exactly right - perhaps this kind of painting simply isn't Alla Prima.

I thought I remembered reading something about working into a dry painting in Richard Schmid's book "Alla Prima paintings".
I had borrowed the book to read so don't have it to check.
Can anyone with the book easily find that section?

I don't remember if it was Burdick or Schmid who said they would scrape off a section they couldn't finish in one session, then paint it fresh when they got back to their work. Burdick starts at the head and moves down, completing the head and then going to shoulders so he can keep the paint wet. Thing is, he uses paint very thickly and he's a better and quicker painter than I am at the moment, so the results he gets in 8 hours would take me a few days - hence, the sticky paint.

I feel a little clumsy talking about this but it's becoming more clear so great input everyone - thank you. I hope we can better isolate the topic and get something out of this.

Does anyone know how Sargent approached paintings? I know little tid-bits, like he would step back about 9 feet, squint, then walk back to the painting, make a stroke, then step back nine feet. Talk about patience. As far as if he deliberately designated a layer as an underpainting though, I have no idea. I'd also love to know how Zorn works, but the books on him are very rare and out of print, I think and so start around 70 dollars and you don't even know what you're buying.

Is this too far off subject for the plein air forum? :o It seems to me some of the techniques would very much overlap.

[Donald_Smith]

argb,

Thanks for replying. Experimentation might be the answer you're looking for. I was talking to a professional artist recently, and he said he might wake up at 1 AM trying to figure out how to solve a painting problem, then spend several hours or days working it out. He said he enjoys the experimentation, trying and learning new ways to do things. Several inventions we have and use today were failures of the original goal, but the mistakes were used to make something useful. Playing and experimenting with art can be like that. You have a problem, you try something to solve it, and it doesn't work, but you learned something that will come in useful when you run across a slightly different problem.

Don

[MChesleyJohnson]

Not to sound flippant, but -- use a larger brush.

Use the biggest brush you can on the canvas. This way, you'll get the paint down fast.

Part of the joy of painting alla prima style -- and also what I admire in such paintings -- is the rapidity with which the painting is made and the looseness of the brushwork. (Note I say "looseness" and not "carelessness" -- each stroke must be accurate!)

[macillus]

IF you tend to paint relatively thinly, here's the technique that I've been using for two years which you may wish to try...

Until recently, I only painted plein air. But I frequently needed 2-4 painting sessions (@ 2 hours a pop), allowing the paint to dry before the next session.

1. I create a quick and simple tonal underpainting in acrylics, using only titanium white, burnt sienna, and ivory black. While I'm cleaning up and preparing for oils, the acrylic underpainting dries.

2. I then paint in oils--thinly-- diluting the paint only with turps.

3. When the paint is dry ( two or three days) and I'm ready for the next session, I lightly coat the entire surface with a medium (1/3 linseed oil, 1/3 stand oil, and 1/3 turps with no more than 3% (by volume) cobalt drier.) This brings up the color and provides a binding surface for the new paint layer. I then paint directly into this, once again diluting my paint only with turps, if needed.

4. I repeat for each painting session.

The medium allows the new paint to visually feather into the old. It can appear as if the entire painting was created in one sitting.