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Kevin
03-09-2002, 10:22 PM
:confused: Advice, please. I use Fredrix pre-stretched canvases for oil landscapes. They are already primed, but I put three coats of acrylic gesso on top of that, to prevent oil seeping through the back of the canvas. I just read on Morgan Samuel Price's "Plein Air Workshop Supplies" list the instruction: "Do Not Gesso Canvas". There is no reason stated for this instruction. Now I am confused. My question is: is it necessary to put gesso on over already pre-primed canvas? If it is not necessary, is there any advantage to it? Any disadvantage?

On a related matter, I usually use a transparent oil color such as raw umber and turps and wipe on a toned ground with a rag, over the dry gesso. Just recently, I tried using Liquitex Concentrated Acrylic Artist Color mixed in with the white gesso to incorporate the colored tone in the gesso ground. You can adjust the value of the tone by adding more or less color into the white gesso. You can use different colors, depending on your objectives for a particular painting. I usually use either a warm or a cool tone. I would appreciate comments and advice on whether this is a desirable practice, or not. I have found that adding three layers of gesso, ( colored or not ), gives a very different painting surface than the commercially primed canvases. I have mixed feelings on the quality of this surface. It adds some texture, but I think it makes it a little more difficult to get the paint to flow easily. You can compensate for this by adding a little medium. I realize you have to be careful to follow the "fat over lean" rule. I'm also confused on whether "fat over lean" is the same thing as "thick over thin"

Any help, advice, suggestions, and comments are all warmly welcomed! Thanks a bunch! :( Kevin

G.L. Hoff
03-09-2002, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by Kevin
:confused: Advice, please. I use Fredrix pre-stretched canvases for oil landscapes. They are already primed, but I put three coats of acrylic gesso on top of that, to prevent oil seeping through the back of the canvas. I just read on Morgan Samuel Price's "Plein Air Workshop Supplies" list the instruction: "Do Not Gesso Canvas". There is no reason stated for this instruction. Now I am confused. My question is: is it necessary to put gesso on over already pre-primed canvas?

Canvas is generally not prepared with gesso, unless you buy commercial stuff primed with acrylic "gesso". Real gesso (glue and whiting) is too brittle to put onto a flexible support like canvas and is usually used only on rigid supports--masonite or plywood panels. For canvas, you would use a sizing (glue of some kind, usually) and an oil primer such as white lead in one or two coats. The glue seals the canvas from the effects of the oil primer. What you're doing is an acrylic priming, which is more flexible but also more slippery. What you're doing is probably not necessary but not harmful, either.

I usually use a transparent oil color such as raw umber and turps and wipe on a toned ground with a rag, over the dry gesso. Just recently, I tried using Liquitex Concentrated Acrylic Artist Color mixed in with the white gesso to incorporate the colored tone in the gesso ground. You can adjust the value of the tone by adding more or less color into the white gesso. You can use different colors, depending on your objectives for a particular painting. I usually use either a warm or a cool tone. I would appreciate comments and advice on whether this is a desirable practice, or not.

It's not a bad way to tone the canvas, but if you use sizing and an oil primer, you can do the same thing.

I'm also confused on whether "fat over lean" is the same thing as "thick over thin"

Nope, they're different. Fat over lean just means use more oil in the top layers. A thinly painted but oil-rich layer (a glaze) can lay on top of a thinly-painted imprimatura, done with turp-thinned paint, for example. Or you can lay a thick impasto (more oil in the tubed paint) onto an underpainting.

Cheers

Luis Guerreiro
03-10-2002, 07:25 PM
Hi Kevin,

Gary has replied to some of your questions very well and I would like to add some notes:

Advice, please. I use Fredrix pre-stretched canvases for oil landscapes. They are already primed, but I put three coats of acrylic gesso on top of that, to prevent oil seeping through the back of the canvas. I just read on Morgan Samuel Price's "Plein Air Workshop Supplies" list the instruction: "Do Not Gesso Canvas". There is no reason stated for this instruction. Now I am confused. My question is: is it necessary to put gesso on over already pre-primed canvas? If it is not necessary, is there any advantage to it? Any disadvantage?

REPLY: The instruction you read refers to traditional gesso which is too hard and would crack on canvas. Traditional gesso is used for hard supports, such as MDF, Masonite, etc. Your confusion results from the fact Manufacturers make acrylic resin "Gesso" under exactly this name of "gesso", mainly because it can be applied to hard supports as well as flexible supports (such as canvas). I think it is a good idea to apply your own acrylic gesso on top of the commercially prepared canvas. Usually commercially primed canvases are too absorbent, so in applying your own gesso on top you will re-balance that. Apply just 1 coat of gesso with a bit more tooth and a 2nd coat of a gesso primer of a smoother finish. I don't know if it is available in America, but I use LASCAUX GESSO for a first coat and LASCAUX GESSO "PRIMER" for the top coat. The "Primer" is designed to provide a more smooth finish, precisely to avoid that feel you said, that the paint doesn't flow well. It will with this particular primer.

On a related matter, I usually use a transparent oil color such as raw umber and turps and wipe on a toned ground with a rag, over the dry gesso. Just recently, I tried using Liquitex Concentrated Acrylic Artist Color mixed in with the white gesso to incorporate the colored tone in the gesso ground.

REPLY: There is a confusion here I would like to clarify if I may. If you are using a little raw umber and turps only you are NOT doing a toned ground. Toned grounds are opaque coloured grounds, used to give a middle value for the picture, you tone a ground by painting your colour on opaque, leave to dry completely before starting your work.
That technique of a transparent umber such as raw umber mixed with turps is called IMPRIMATURA and even then, I suggest you follow a better method: Instead of raw umber, use a Transparent Red Oxide, or Transparent Italian Brown Pink or Transparent Yellow Oxide. I buy mine from Old Holland (Series B - not too expensive). Anyway, mix the paint thinly with turps and brush (with a brush, not a rag) it on the primed canvas. Leave to evaporate some of the turps for 5 minutes, then clean the excess with a DRY rag. This is a simple and effective Imprimatura technique. If you want a stronger/darker imprimatura, leave to dry for 10 or 15 minutes before cleaning off the excess. If you want a very light imprimatura, leave to dry for just 1 or 2 minutes and clean off the excess.

Lastly, I know the sites are under construction and many pages still need to be populated with data. It just takes time to process the whole thing, but I actually have just put some data on supports, sizes, grounds and recipes, if you want to have a browse, look in www.oils-studio.co.uk which is a site dedicated to students and new starters in oils. It's copyright free for all wetcanvas members by the way.
Best regards:)
Luis:)

guillot
03-11-2002, 04:35 PM
:D Hi Luis!! Just wanted to say thanks for the link up there!! Nice information ;)

Tina

Luis Guerreiro
03-11-2002, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by guillot
:D Hi Luis!! Just wanted to say thanks for the link up there!! Nice information ;)

Tina

Hi Tina,
You're most welcome. Keep visiting the site, as it will continue to get populated with essential technical data on art materials, their history, properties and charactiristics, etc...
Best regards
Luis :)

Kevin
03-12-2002, 08:10 PM
:) Hi Gary: thanks for your good information and advice; I appreciate your help. The commercial canvases I use are by Fredrix. they are pre-stretched and pre-primed with acrylic gesso. I guess I am taking the easy way out, instead of stretching and priming my own canvases, but space and time are calling the shots for now. I would rather spend my time painting rather than stretching and priming. What I'm apparently doing is adding more acrylic gesso layers to the already acrylic-primed canvases, since I have been using "Liquitex Acrylic Gesso". I was really confused on the difference between "fat over lean" and "thick over thin", so thanks for de-confusing me on that score! Thanks for your help, once again. :)

:) Hi Luis: I'm indebted to you again for your help. I have heard of Lascaux in connection with art supplies, but I don't think they are available in the U.S. I get Blick and other art catalogues, so I will be on the lookout for the Lascaux Gesso and "Primer" products you mentioned. Blick has about 4 or 5 gesso brands, but not that one.

Thanks for enlightening me as to what "imprimatura" means; I guess I have been using it without realizing it. I use that method, but also use opaque toned grounds sometimes. The first method I mentioned; -- raw umber and turps -- I learned from "Painting in Oils" by William Palluth. He does a pencil sketch on untoned canvas. Then he uses raw umber and turps to do an underpainting (which I have thought also was considered a toned ground).
He says "My next step is underpainting the entire picture wiith a thin wash of Raw Umber and turpentine, trying to approximate the correct values. I lighten some values by wiping with a clean rag or facial tissue....) Then he says "the finished underpainting should resemble a sepia-tone phot and gives me a good idea at this early stage what the finished painting should look like. Now I'm ready for color." I have not been able to decide whether that method is better than using an opaque underpainting (in 4 or 5 values) or not, so I am still using both for the time being.

I have not checked it out yet, but am looking forward to investigating the web-site you mentioned.

Once again, Luis, thank you for all the information and kind advice you have provided. I have quite a few art books, mostly focusing on the practical application aspects of oil-painting, but I must say it does get confusing because frequently you get inconsistent information from two or more different sources. Part of the problem is that artist-authors often are not very precise in their use of terminology --- just like real live artists!! Thanks again, Luis! :clap:

Bendaini
03-13-2002, 02:00 AM
I use the canvas panals that you buy at walmart... the ones that say "pre-treated for any medium" and so far have had no troble at all painting on them. I just lay a thinned layer of white over the canvas then have at it... i find it much easier to paint with the canvas already a bit oiled :)

As to mixing color into your gesso... if its working dont fix it ;)

Me, myself, i prefer to paint on the little layer of oil... i have never worked with gesso though so i couldnt say.

Luis Guerreiro
03-13-2002, 03:20 AM
Originally posted by Kevin
:) :) Hi Luis: I'm indebted to you again for your help. I have heard of Lascaux in connection with art supplies, but I don't think they are available in the U.S. I get Blick and other art catalogues, so I will be on the lookout for the Lascaux Gesso and "Primer" products you mentioned. Blick has about 4 or 5 gesso brands, but not that one. Thanks for enlightening me as to what "imprimatura" means; I guess I have been using it without realizing it. I use that method, but also use opaque toned grounds sometimes. The first method I mentioned; -- raw umber and turps -- I learned from "Painting in Oils" by William Palluth. He does a pencil sketch on untoned canvas. Then he uses raw umber and turps to do an underpainting (which I have thought also was considered a toned ground).
He says "My next step is underpainting the entire picture wiith a thin wash of Raw Umber and turpentine, trying to approximate the correct values. I lighten some values by wiping with a clean rag or facial tissue....) Then he says "the finished underpainting should resemble a sepia-tone phot and gives me a good idea at this early stage what the finished painting should look like. Now I'm ready for color." I have not been able to decide whether that method is better than using an opaque underpainting (in 4 or 5 values) or not, so I am still using both for the time being.
I have not checked it out yet, but am looking forward to investigating the web-site you mentioned. Once again, Luis, thank you for all the information and kind advice you have provided. I have quite a few art books, mostly focusing on the practical application aspects of oil-painting, but I must say it does get confusing because frequently you get inconsistent information from two or more different sources. Part of the problem is that artist-authors often are not very precise in their use of terminology --- just like real live artists!! Thanks again, Luis! :clap:

Kevin,
You're most welcome! Please ask anytime, I am pleased to be of assistance and again, keep visiting the site for artists as it will develop a lot over the next couple of months with important data on art materials, recipes, historical notes, etc. I have done a lot of research and have notes from the last 10 years or so.
I also left a note on the other thread about palettes, your questions need adequate consideration and I must reply to all of them with a structured approach. I have 2 studies to submit for commissioned work and that's why I have been running about like a mad chimp :D to get them approved and carry on with the paintings. Abstract/contemporary stuff, which is my field... although I know there seems to be a number of artists to whom contemporary art is not art, I must disagree. Even for contemporary art, the knowledge and practices accumulated over the last 500 years are still all there. I'll come back to that at some point. Anyway, keep in touch my friend! Dialogue and debate of ideas is 1/2 way to success, I believe. For art as for anything else in life. ;)
Please accept my warmest regards.
Luis :)

G.L. Hoff
03-13-2002, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Kevin
:) Hi Gary: thanks for your good information and advice; I appreciate your help. The commercial canvases I use are by Fredrix. they are pre-stretched and pre-primed with acrylic gesso. I guess I am taking the easy way out, instead of stretching and priming my own canvases, but space and time are calling the shots for now. I would rather spend my time painting rather than stretching and priming....

Don't we all. FWIW, you *can* buy oil-primed canvas from various sources, either already stretched or in rolls. Typically, it's called SP or DP (single- or double-primed), so you don't necessarily have to used acrylic-primed stuff. But as others have said, if it's working for you, why change it?

Oh, and yr welcome.

Cheers

Leopoldo1
03-13-2002, 10:22 AM
I paint on both grounds, but prefer a lead one. If I have an acrylic pre-stretch laying around that is the proper size that I am looking for, I just smear lead all over it. I know one of you chemist analyst out there, and there are quite a few of you, are going to jump on bandwagon and expond on the virtues of achival this and achival that, delamination, etc! What I find funny is that those that seem to be walking encycopledias of how to have your paintings out live spent nuclear waste never post anything!...L

Kevin
03-13-2002, 07:36 PM
:) Hi Bendaini! I am curious what you use to thin the white paint with, when you "lay a thinned layer of white over the canvas". Do you just use turps, or do you use linseed oil, or something else?

I agree it's a good idea not to"fix" something if it's already working o.k., but I'm always on the lookout for alternative methods which might help to improve my painting. Some artists I know just keep doing the same thing ad nauseam , including repeating their mistakes endlessly, instead of learning from them. Thanks for your comments, and "happy painting". :)

:) Hi Gary! Thanks for the additional information. I didn't know that pre-stretched oil-primed canvases are available; I'll have to try one, but I'm reasonably satisfied with the acrylic-primed pre-stretched canvases. Guess I'm just not that sophisticated and/or discriminating yet! ;)

:) Hi Leopoldo! I hope that comment on human encyclopedias was tongue-in-cheek, and not too cynical! A further question for you, though: When you "smear lead all over" an already acrylic-primed canvas, what is the purpose and/or advantage to doing that? And what commercial product do you use? I feel that personally I don't have to worry excessively about my unworthy paintings living for posterity! I'm more concerned about the "here and now" than the "hereafter" I'll worry about that when I get there, and I won't be too surprised if I don't see any of my paintings there! Thanks for your pithy pointers!

On a more general note, I'm pleased that this thread is generating interest, and lots of useful information. Thanks to all who responded. Kevin.

Bendaini
03-13-2002, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by Kevin
:) Hi Bendaini! I am curious what you use to thin the white paint with, when you "lay a thinned layer of white over the canvas". Do you just use turps, or do you use linseed oil, or something else?

I agree it's a good idea not to"fix" something if it's already working o.k., but I'm always on the lookout for alternative methods which might help to improve my painting. Some artists I know just keep doing the same thing ad nauseam , including repeating their mistakes endlessly, instead of learning from them. Thanks for your comments, and "happy painting". :)
Linseed oil. I have never, nor do i really want to try, used turps in my oil painting. That smell would drive me nuts. I just use the oil. Linseed oil is very versitile. I just learned to highlight an already dry painting with a very very minute amount of white paint and a LOT of oil... then carefuly put it on, using a tissu to whipe of the extra. Fingers work well too <img src= "http://bratwood.netherweb.com/smileys/biggrinbounce.gif"> i always have paint on my fingers....

Leopoldo1
03-14-2002, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by Kevin
Hi Leopoldo! I hope that comment on human encyclopedias was tongue-in-cheek, and not too cynical! A further question for you, though: When you "smear lead all over" an already acrylic-primed canvas, what is the purpose and/or advantage to doing that? And what commercial product do you use?Thanks for your pithy pointers!

Pithy pointers, cynical huh! LOL

There is alot of virtues to using lead in paint and if you do a search you can find alot of info on this subject. Scott Methvin and others have posted some wonderful information in this forum on the subject and they know their stuff. In short, here it is for me:

I buy and do use store bought cotton acrylic primed stretched canvas as well as stretching my own. The roll that I stretch from is linen, double primed with lead. The stretched acylic supports I buy are fine to paint on, but have a few drawbacks for my usage. First of all, the surface is very rough and plays h*** on one's brushes. You'll wear out the flags on good brushes and bad brushes even faster. The acrylic support is too absorbent and stains the canvas. Lead on the other hands is a different animal. If I want to remove some paint on a lead support, I can always get back to the white surface underneath because is doesn't stain! Brush work dances on the surface and one can easily land a triple toe lux!

There seems to be some controversy over the use of a more stable paint film like lead over a more flexible film like acrylic. The store bought acrylic is so thinnly applied on the canvas, that the introduction of coats of lead does not cause me a problem. If one had a very thick coat of acrylic and then layed down passages of lead over that, certainly the question of insability would have to be a strong consideration.

Lead white is hard to find commercially. Alot of people mull their own. Environmental scares in the past and now into the future from bureaucrats, government agencies, law suits and insurance companies have caused the manufactures to quit production, so the paranoia game is winning. The market for lead usage is small and manufactures do not want to undertake the expense and possible risks for a such a limited market.

Try it you'll like it! Its like the old TV commercial with two little brothers eating breakfast cereal. "Mikey likes it!"....L

guillot
03-14-2002, 09:52 AM
Hi Leo :D

Question: Is Cremnitz white the same as lead white????

I've noticed, since the old "van gogh" question, it is in fact very difficult to find, AND costly!! :D

Tina

Leopoldo1
03-14-2002, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by guillot
Hi Leo :D

Question: Is Cremnitz white the same as lead white????

I've noticed, since the old "van gogh" question, it is in fact very difficult to find, AND costly!! :D

Tina

Tina, Tina, Tina,

I know it is lead white, but why the name difference is a good question! I am sure someone can answer that question.

Not really that costly Tina, a little goes along way. For commercial bought stuff, Robert Doak in NY is hard to beat and sells quarts of beautiful creamy (sour cream consistency) lead primer. He is also the only one I know of that sells a crystal clear liquid lead dryer(siccative) to quicken the drying process for that primer....L

Scott Methvin
03-14-2002, 12:04 PM
Cremnitz is the name of a city (in Czechoslovakia) and process for making a specific type of lead carbonate. This was in the olden days.

Today it is just marketing. Flake, blanc de argent and cremnitz are generally the same thing.

I would love to hear from anyone who knows exactly how the folks in Cremintz used their manure piles to make art history:)

Kevin
03-14-2002, 08:28 PM
:( Hi Bendaini! Thanks for clarifying that you just use linseed oil, because you don't like the smell of turpentine. I kind of like the combined smells of oil-painting, including the paint, mediums, and even turpentine , if there is sufficient ventilation in the room --- the smell sort of "transports" me into the world of oil painting. Have you tried Weber's odorless turpenoid ? It's not too strong a smell. Kevin.


Leopoldo: your comment about the paint staining the acrylic primed support is really why I started this thread; I had found that even with the acrylic priming on the canvas that eventually some of the oil and color would seep through the back of the canvas. that's why I put 3 coats of gesso over the acrylic priming. I'll have to try the lead priming. Thanks for the reference to information by Scott Methvin, I'll check it out. If Tina can call you "Leo", I hope you won't think me impertinent (ha!) for doing likewise in the future. You can get even with me by calling me "Kev"; that's what my friends call me, and I'm thinking of you as a friend now! "Cheers"! Kev. :cat: :)

Leopoldo1
03-14-2002, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by Kevin
Thanks for the reference to information by Scott Methvin, I'll check it out. If Tina can call you "Leo", I hope you won't think me impertinent (ha!) for doing likewise in the future. You can get even with me by calling me "Kev"; that's what my friends call me, and I'm thinking of you as a friend now! "Cheers"!

Of course Kev!...L

Scott Methvin
03-15-2002, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by Leopoldo




There is alot of virtues to using lead in paint and if you do a search you can find alot of info on this subject. Scott Methvin and others have posted some wonderful information in this forum on the subject and they know their stuff.

Leo,

You flatter me with your kind words.:angel:

impressionist2
03-15-2002, 07:23 AM
Scott, I can't vouch for the author, but here is some information:


Lead White: Lead white, a basic lead carbonate (2PbCO3-Pb(OH)2),
was one of the earliest manufactured pigments, made since the time of the
ancient Egyptians and Greeks. For painting, lead white is useful for its
handling properties, particularly, in oil paints, and the lead also acts as a
drier in oil.

The method the castaway uses to manufacture this pigment is very similar
to the way it was manufactured in the eighth century, though the pots
should have been embedded in fermenting tan bark or dung to facilitate the
change of the lead acetate to lead hydroxide and lead carbonate. This
stack process, and the later Dutch stack process of the 17th century, are
now replaced by more economical processes, though these are not an
improvement on the older methods, from the artist's point of view.
Cheaper commercial grades often contain too much lead acetate to be
suitable for an artist's pigment, as the acetate is associated with undesirable
yellowing. The best artist's grade of lead white is called Cremnitz White.

Historically, lead white was used as a cosmetic, generally as a base for
facial foundation, or sometimes unmixed, for its whiteness, causing massive
skin pocking and lead poisoning in many women. The dangers of lead have
long been known: medieval writers warn against the "apoplexy, epilepsy,
and paralysis" which can follow exposure to lead. Acute (short-term) lead
poisoning causes the well-known "painter's colic"; chronic (long-term)
poisoning is more serious, and can be fatal. It is slightly toxic through the
skin, highly toxic by inhalation and ingestion, is a teratogen and suspected
mutagen (causes mutations, therefore birth defects and possibly cancer).

The major danger to artists is by inhalation while grinding the pigment, or
using it in materials like pastels and watercolours. Lead white is no longer
used in these commercial products for this reason. Lead is best used in oil
paints, and the dust avoided at all costs. These days, lead white is seldom
sold as a pigment, so this problem occurs more for potters than painters,
though very old painted cribs, wallpapers and house paints may contain
lead white (some very old papers even contain arsenic green).

Lead poisoning affects the stomach and intestines (colic), can cause
anemia, and lead to a weakening of wrists, fingers, ankles, and toes, and
pain in joints and muscles. Lead poisoning can also cause liver and kidney
damage. European doctors often treat chronic lead poisoning with a diet of
citrus juices, as the citric acid leaches the lead out of the system, and
passes it out of the body. In many European cities with lead water pipes,
chronic lead poisoning was a common complaint, so doctors became
accustomed to treating it.

This citrus-juice treatment is pooh-poohed by North American doctors,
but I knew a woman who was a hobby potter for many years, foolishly
firing her unvented kiln in her basement, often using lead glazes. She said
that after every firing, her windows were covered with a murky film. Not
surprisingly, after years of this, she developed lead poisoning: she could no
longer move or walk, her wrists and ankles were so weak. It was all she
could do to persuade her doctor to even test for lead, which he was not
inclined to believe was the problem; when he saw her blood levels were as
high as they were, he said there was nothing could be done. She heard
about the citrus juice treatment, and within a month, she was walking again.
Her recovery appears not to have changed her doctor's opinion. Lead
poisoning is best avoided, but it is not untreatable. Ironically, the North
American medical establishment is aware of the affinity citrus has for lead
when it recommends citrus juices not be drunk out of lead-glazed ceramic
ware.

White lead has been known by many names: Ceruse, flake white,
snowflake white, Cremnitz white, Nottingham white (in French, blanc de
plomb, blanc d'argent, in German, Bleiweiss, Kremserweiss. "


I'll post the website link. Here it is:http://www.writer2001.com/index.htm
It's an esoteric website, with historical references to archaeological finds, including celtic coins and pages on color theory. Renee



Leopoldo, "Leopoldo" is a regal name. It has class , bearing and an impressive air of history. :cool:

"Leo", is the butcher down the street, or the plumber ( as Seinfeld said, "Not that there's anything wrong with that").

I prefer to call you Leopoldo. It's the same as when Milt ( Bruin70 ) calls me "Impy", or others call me "i2". Grrrrr :mad: :)


Renee

Leopoldo1
03-15-2002, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by impressionist2
Leopoldo, "Leopoldo" is a regal name. It has class , bearing and an impressive air of history. :cool:
Renee

Thats what my mother thought when she handy me this middle name, growing up in a struggle class environment but hard working family. I am sure she had expectations! Renee, with those words you are my buddy for life!...;)L

guillot
03-16-2002, 05:50 PM
Sorry Leopoldo..........at one time, or another, you signed the end of one of your messages back to me as "Leo". Please forgive me relating you to "just another Leo or a butcher down the street" if that is how it was taken. It was definitely not to be intended that way.

That's for the information Leopoldo, Scott Methvin, and Impressionist2 (don't want to offend you :rolleyes: )

As usual, you guys are great!! :angel:

Tina