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impressionist2
03-01-2002, 09:46 AM
I know this has probably been discussed before, but a good friend wrote me this am. I am hoping one of you can point her to the answers. Thanks.

Renee

Bobbi wrote:

Renee, The last oils that I bought were the Old Holland and I really liked them.
>But, I'm not sure what to use for a medium. What do most of the people on
>your wet canvas site prefer. I would like something that would dry overnight
>and allow me to work the next day on semi-dry paint. What do you suggest?
>

Leopoldo1
03-01-2002, 10:45 AM
Renee, Maroger fits that bill nicely! The black oil which is made from lithrage(lead) is the key ingredient in Maroger for overnight drying!.........L

jimbob
03-01-2002, 11:10 AM
:cat:Try using Liquin from Windsor and Newton, when this medium is used with my paint it takes about two days to dry; but the following day after a sitting my painting is usually semi dry.

vallarta
03-01-2002, 05:14 PM
Tell your friend to get acrylics if she insists on overnight drying.

Some mediums....may appear to dry overnight but will in a few days amalagmate with the underlying color and make it muddy. It took me a long time to admit this. I was often sure the painting was "dry" the next day by rubbing my hand over it. Then I applied a glaze and it looked fine. But in a day or two it dulled and looked "crappy." What had happened was that the top surface of the glaze was dry but the bottom was sill wet enough it was working its way into the underpainting. Instead of glazing...it was making mud.

The way to combat this is admit it will take time to dry and start a number of oil paintings. Then stagger them in drying time and work the most dry one.

OR: Do acrylic underpaintings and then do oils over them. When you get to the oil stage then you have to fight the drying time thing however.

vallarta

impressionist2
03-01-2002, 08:33 PM
Leopoldo, JimBob and Myles, Thank you all. I will send her here, to read your replies.

I am interested in this as well, as I just made the switch from water based to "real" oils and forgot I am going to have drying problems as well from now on.

Myles has made a good suggestion to have several canvases going at once.

Renee

G.L. Hoff
03-03-2002, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by impressionist2
Bobbi wrote:

Renee, The last oils that I bought were the Old Holland and I really liked them.
>But, I'm not sure what to use for a medium...I would like something that would dry overnight
>and allow me to work the next day on semi-dry paint.

Besides Maroger's (expensive) and Liquin (probably okay but some question its holding power and say it darkens), you could also tell your friend to consider using "black oil" (linseed oil with lead boiled into it) straight, or adding a siccative (cobalt or lead) to linseed oil, or even adding (gasp!) a resin like Canada balsam to oil. Any of these will produce a rather quick drying effect. So will the "dreaded" copals. Pros use all of the above at one time or another.

Regards

impressionist2
03-04-2002, 07:59 AM
Thanks to all for your replies. Here's my question. If you don't use Any speed dry medium, how long would the average oil painting take till it's deliverable? (tacky but not rub off on the client's hands!) I know different colors dry at different speeds, but just on the average using a full spectrum of color.

The water based oils dry overnight practically, or at least you don't need to watch the heel of your hand on the paint. So, now I am putting more planning time into the painting while using traditional oils, so I don't have to work over still wet paint.

Renee

Leopoldo1
03-04-2002, 08:15 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by impressionist2
If you don't use Any speed dry medium, how long would the average oil painting take till it's deliverable? (tacky but not rub off on the client's hands!) I know different colors dry at different speeds, but just on the average using a full spectrum of color.

Renee, a week or more at 60 degrees and above. Know your slow driers like Ivory Black, Titanium White, etc and adjust around those pigments.

So, now I am putting more planning time into the painting while using traditional oils, so I don't have to work over still wet paint.

Unless you have the patience and can put your creative passions on hold a week or more so everyhting dries, I would add a drier preferable a lead siccative as opposed to the blue yuk, cobalt drier. Lead adds nice qualities to paint, one which I like is it allows the pigment to dry from the inside out as opposed to cobalt which dries on surface first and then inwardly. Doak is the only source I know of that sells a clear liquid lead. Black oil is another excellent alternative. Once you became a Lead Head you will be a groupie for life!.........L

G.L. Hoff
03-04-2002, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by Leopoldo
[QUOTE][i]Lead adds nice qualities to paint, one which I like is it allows the pigment to dry from the inside out as opposed to cobalt which dries on surface first and then inwardly. Doak is the only source I know of that sells a clear liquid lead. Black oil is another excellent alternative. Once you became a Lead Head you will be a groupie for life!.........L

Right you are, David, and also lead "ain't" dangerous in liquid form, despite all the nonsense you hear. Unless you eat it, lead won't hurt you--you can't absorb it through the skin. Me, I love Doak's liquid lead. Works great--paint dries to touch overnight. Handy stuff!

Regards

impressionist2
03-04-2002, 01:18 PM
Leopoldo and GL, Thank you. Bobbi stopped by and read this thread and sent me this post:




"Renee....I did a seach for black oil which that one guy mentioned.
http://www.artsuppliesonline.com/catalog.cfm?cata_id=126
I found it at the link above. Didn't that really good painter guy on
Paint-l...recommend black oil or walnut oil?

When I get ready to do an oil....I'm going to get some of this. Or the
Doaks...if we can find it.

Bobbi"


So, fellows, where do we find Doaks? Plus, even more importantly to me, does it have fumes?

Titanium, If you are reading this, I think she means you when she said, " Didn't that really good painter guy on
Paint-l...recommend black oil or walnut oil?"
What say you?


Here's my latest painting with my necessary method till we find the drier- "painting from the top to the bottom!"
:D

Titanium
03-04-2002, 02:54 PM
Renee ,

just by accident I read this thread.

I had to switch from Linseed oil to Walnut oil,
because at our normal temperatures - 75 to 90
degs.F - day to night. My paint was drying overnight
to just under 2 days.

With walnut oil I can get 2 to 4 days.

Please be careful with lead anything , especially if
you already use manganese [ umber , siennas ,
burnt siennas ] and cobalt pigments.
This is like hitting yourself with a chemical cocktail.

Plus , these different driers and drier pigments , only
dry the surface of the oil paint. Yes , I know lead is
a through drier , but oil paint as I am sure you
remember from the Grumbacher help line , takes at
least six months to " cure ".
So even if the cobalt drier in liquin hardens the coat
overnight , it still is not cured.

For faster drying you can -

[1 ] Use pigments that do not retard drying.

[ 2 ]Develop a working technique that allows you to
work all over the canvas [ like a sculptor works ]
allowing areas to dry.

[ 3 ] Use thin coats , but paint with opaque pigments.

[ 4 ] Reserve all special effects [ impasto , etc. ] for
your last coat.

That said - I can put you in touch with someone
who makes Black Oil and can advise on it's use,
where to buy a proper and well made black oil ,
and how to work safely , with lead.

Send me a private message , for the e-mail address.

Linseed oil is for faster drying and walnut oil is for
slower.
Linseed oil will , with time [ 50 years - do you care ?]
yellow /red / brown , this can affect whites , greens and
blues.

Walnut oil will yellow , but holds more pigment and so
the yellowing may not be as noticeable.
5 to 10 % Stand Oil to 95 to 90 % walnut oil , will give
it back the strength of a linseed oil and probably more.
Since Walnut Oil is thinner , the thicker stand oil , will
even out to a Linseed oil's thickness - Test , Test , Test.

Kremer Pigments [ on-line ] also sells a liquid drier.

This combination - Zirconium , Calcium and Cobalt is
used by paint companies.
The zirconium polymerises like lead and considered
very low in toxicity[ no drinking it please ].
Calcium is also considered low in toxicity and helps
polymerisation .
Cobalt is the surface drier.[ Cobalt here is used in
very low %'s] and is a neurotoxin [ see Sinopia.com ]

This enables commercial [ alkyd resin / stand oil / drying
oil ] paints to dry tack free and overnight.

The problem is as is usual - it is not time tested.
However , the above combination may already be in
some commercially tubed paints.

Aside-

I have found the Artisan [ water soluble paints ] to be
pretty useful.
This year I am testing the durability of the Artisan Stand
Oil with paint on glass .
I will let you know how it works.

I believe the tacky stuff is the - soap - added to the oil
to enable the water mixable/soluble qualities.
It will oxidise with time to a non-sticky surface.

______

Ask you doctor or pharmacist if oil can be absorbed through
unbroken skin , and if lead in solution in oil will also be
absorbed .

Sorry , if I can't offer any exceptional information.
Best to you.
Titanium

For more information go here - [email protected]

* If your using a Zinc / Titanium White , stay away from
driers that form brittle hard coats - manganese and cobalt.
examples of pigments above.

Zinc oxide forms a hard , brittle coat and is best used on
canvas on panel . A firm surface.
You can paint on stretched canvas , but when finished
stick it to a panel.

With lead white you have considerable leeway , lead
white in oil forms an elastic , durable coat.

You can also see W and N's drying oil made with manganese
if your using lead white. Supposed to be fast drying.
Test , Test , Test.

G.L. Hoff
03-04-2002, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by impressionist2
Leopoldo and GL, Thank you. Bobbi stopped by and read this thread and sent me this post:
"Renee....I did a seach for black oil which that one guy mentioned.
http://www.artsuppliesonline.com/catalog.cfm?cata_id=126 I'm going to get some of this. Or the
Doaks...if we can find it.

So, fellows, where do we find Doaks? Plus, even more importantly to me, does it have fumes?

Doaks address is:
Robert Doak and Associates
89 Bridge St.
Brookly, NY 11201
718-237-1210
Robert answers the phone himself, doesn't take plastic, doesn't have a web site or a published catalog. Oh, and Studio Products (they have a website) sells linseed black oil by mail.

"Black oil" is simply a drying oil with lead boiled in. It can be either linseed or walnut. As to drying, depends on what you're after. As Titanium says, walnut dries more slowly. And black oil doesn't have any more fumes than, say, regular stand oil.

Also, good advice about being careful with lead. But (and this is a really *big* but) don't worry unless you're ingesting it or inhaling powdered lead compounds. You can't absorb it through the skin. But caution in handling any lead is important. Same with certain other metals (not so much manganese or cobalt, but certainly cadmiums). Again, though, that does not make these excessively dangerous materials. And I'm speaking now as a physician, in case you're wondering.

Leopoldo1
03-04-2002, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Titanium

Please be careful with lead anything , especially if
you already use manganese [ umber , siennas ,
burnt siennas ] and cobalt pigments.
This is like hitting yourself with a chemical cocktail.

Ask you doctor or pharmacist if oil can be absorbed through
unbroken skin , and if lead in solution in oil will also be
absorbed .

Oh, OOOO! Here we go again on the old lead topic again!

Titanium, maybe if you changed your user name to basic lead carbonate or flake white your fears of lead would diminish? ;)............L

G.L. Hoff
03-04-2002, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by Titanium
Please be careful with lead anything , especially if
you already use manganese [ umber , siennas ,
burnt siennas ] and cobalt pigments.
This is like hitting yourself with a chemical cocktail.

Well, if you're inhaling them or ingesting them, the answer is yes. If not, general caution is all that's needed. You won't be hitting yourself with anything. Transdermal absorption of these metals is almost nil.

Cobalt here is used in very low %'s] and is a neurotoxin [ see Sinopia.com ]

Haven't seen the Sinopia site, but this is not true so far as I can determine. Cobalt toxicity affects the heart (so-called "cobalt cardiomyopathy") and excessive exposure causes dermatitis and occasionally asthma from the inhaled dust. Can also cause a kind of lung fibrosis when inhaled. Manganese is a neurotoxin and causes a Parkinson's-like affliction.

Ask you doctor or pharmacist if oil can be absorbed through unbroken skin , and if lead in solution in oil will also be
absorbed.

Being a physician, I can answer those two questions with a simple no. I have found no literature in medical journals to support either possibility.

Titanium
03-04-2002, 06:32 PM
Hey L ,

Titanium Dioxide here ,

Hey G.L.Hoff ,


that's the standard reply - Please be careful .

As Lead White goes , the pigment has been
found to be very useful.

At any time , I will always suggest that someone
wanting to use Lead Pigments , talk to someone
in the medical profession and have a blood test
once or twice a year.
[ I am not a doctor , and can only advise caution ]

See Sinopia.com for other cautions on pigments .
I assume saying the state of California advises
x has some legal bearing.

Sorry L, no strong stand against Lead White .

Titanium Dioxide [ for now - ha ha ha ]

Leopoldo1
03-04-2002, 06:51 PM
Keep up the good work T!.......L

Scott Methvin
03-04-2002, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Titanium
Hey L ,

Titanium Dioxide here ,

Hey G.L.Hoff ,


that's the standard reply - Please be careful .

As Lead White goes , the pigment has been
found to be very useful.

At any time , I will always suggest that someone
wanting to use Lead Pigments , talk to someone
in the medical profession and have a blood test
once or twice a year.
[ I am not a doctor , and can only advise caution ]

See Sinopia.com for other cautions on pigments .
I assume saying the state of California advises
x has some legal bearing.

Sorry L, no strong stand against Lead White .

Titanium Dioxide [ for now - ha ha ha ]

Hi Kim,

I had my blood checked and was way below normal. I handle the powder when I make paint. You just need to use common sense.

It is not absorbed through the skin because the size of lead molecules are huge. Eating or breathing it in is the only way to absorb it. Also a cut in the wrong place.

Don't anyone let fear of lead scare you away from trying this, the most usefull pigment on the oil painter pallette.

(ps, Sinopia quit selling the lead carbonate pigment and terpentine based anything-try Kremer, they aren't in California-the state that screws up everything they touch. UPS also had a hand with the terps in their case.)

sincerely,

Scott the lead-head

Titanium
03-05-2002, 03:33 AM
Scott ,

Lead white is a banned substance on
this little island . We also have no special
systems in place for dumping the stuff.

Since I only use drying oil and pigment ,
plus a little stand oil , the loss of turpentine
[ a specialty product down here , imported
for cleaning stainless steel equipment or
something along those lines ] , after leaving
Florence , Italy since 1986 or so , was never
noticed.

I do the best , I can and leave the rest to the
future.

Thanks for the encouragement . I have looked into
the potential of lead as a polymerising drier .
Only 0.10% lead [ metal needed ] to 100 gms of
drying oil needed.
Then 100 gms of lead [ from unbanned fishing
weights would go a long way --- I could leave
the lead at the bottom of the oil ]

However , my white mix of zinc / titanium has never
failed me in use , so I don't make a big fuss.
Titanium

impressionist2
03-05-2002, 06:53 AM
Titanium wrote:
"Kremer Pigments [ on-line ] also sells a liquid drier.

This combination - Zirconium , Calcium and Cobalt is used by paint companies.
The zirconium polymerises like lead and considered
very low in toxicity[ no drinking it please ].
Calcium is also considered low in toxicity and helps polymerisation .
Cobalt is the surface drier.[ Cobalt here is used in
very low %'s] and is a neurotoxin [ see Sinopia.com ]

This enables commercial [ alkyd resin / stand oil / drying
oil ] paints to dry tack free and overnight.

The problem is as is usual - it is not time tested.
However , the above combination may already be in
some commercially tubed paints."


Titanium and all, I understood all the rest of what you and the others wrote, except for the above. When you say, "This enables commercial [ alkyd resin / stand oil / drying
oil ] paints to dry tack free and overnight.", are you talking about Alkyds?

I have heard of them but don't know what they are. Is it oil paint with the drying additive? What is the difference in appearance ( the look of the painting- semi-gloss or matte?) between an Alkyd paint and a traditional oil paint? How about the difference in smoothness of application?









Then Titanium wrote:
"Aside-
I have found the Artisan [ water soluble paints ] to be pretty useful.
This year I am testing the durability of the Artisan Stand
Oil with paint on glass .
I will let you know how it works. I believe the tacky stuff is the - soap - added to the oil
to enable the water mixable/soluble qualities.
It will oxidise with time to a non-sticky surface."


Titanium, I have used Grumbacher max for all of my paintings up till recently when I switched to Danacolors. I tried Artisan and did not like the texture of the paint at all. Holbein actually makes the smoothest paint of the three manufacturers, but I would still trust Grumbacher as far as pigments.

The problem I have always had, is that I cannot get a "blob" of paint with the WB oils. I have always worked in layers as a result. That worked fine for me for a while, but I always missed getting that gorgeous impasto look. There is really no comparison between water based oils and a Good ( expensive) tradional oil paint. I know because I have created paintings with both paints, side by side, and seen it myself. Both texture and especially pigment.



So, with all this great debate, has the jury come to a conclusion? Which drier is the best one? Hmmmmm. Would someone read back the testimony, please? I am leaning toward black oil or Doaks. Isn't it really the best thing, though, for the painting to just dry naturally? Maybe it doesn't do the painting any good to force it to dry.

I don't have any problem with having five or six canvases going at once. The only difficulty one might encounter is a deadline and sticky paint.

How far back in history did driers first appear? Did the old masters have them? Which old masters?

Have painting surfaces, with driers added, cracked more or less than paintings that dried naturally?


Renee

Titanium
03-05-2002, 10:00 AM
Renee - so many questions - chuckle.

Yes , down here at least oil house paints [ oil ] are
alkyd oil resin mixes .
Linseed would naturally dry very fast in the Tropics .
The drier blend used on alkyd oil resin house paints
should also work well on linseed [ probably faster ]


Alkyds were designed to offer a cheaper and easier souce of
commercial varnish , which was copal varnish in the older days.
Copal always had a problem of supply and quality.
Plus there was all this cheap soybean oil .

Alkyd Oil Resin [ alkyd for short ] - is

[ 1] an oil - e.g. soybean or linseed or sunflower or other oils.

[ 2] a man made resin - to add hardness / gloss

If made with a naturally drying oil , the alkyd oil resin will dry
to the drying oil's speed. Example a linseed oil alkyd resin.

Normally for artists the mix is something like 65 % oil 35 % man-made resin , because this stuff is so sticky , like taffy or worse ,
it is normally supplied mixed with mineral spirits.
Of course once the mineral spirits evaporates , it goes back to
being sticky.

So the Alkyd Oil Resin is further modified with more oil and often
stand oil.

The paints made with Alkyd Oil Resin are also mixed with more oil
and stand oil to give a workable , flexible paint.
Normally you don't get as much pigment in the paint , so Alkyd paints are often translucent to transparent.

They will yellow just like normal oils and the man-made resin ---
MAY --- brown like a normal resin.

BUT they usually dry very glossy.

If an Alkyd Oil Resin is made with a non-drying oil --- e.g. soybean
[ or poorly drying oil ] , a drier must be added.
Seen in Liquin - which contains cobalt as the drier.

Hope that helps .


Artisan paints and the BLOB.

Renee , sometime ago on Cowdisley , someone noted in a
book that Rembrandt's spectacular BLOBS [ impasto ] were
measured as not being that high off of the canvas.

Something for you to look into [ a little private research ]

Artisan is designed to have medium added to it.
It is meant to be a pasty paint.
The normal painting medium is just a thinned water mixable stand oil .

So you draw in the image on the canvas with a water thinned
colour [ say a deep yellow ].
Registering the light and shadow pattern.

Then add pastel colour [ white plus colour ] , anticipating
the paint becoming translucent with time [ pentimento and
all that ]. Straight from the tube colour , kept thin by brush
pressure. Water only for washing the brush.
No texture , just a relatively thin , but opaque coat.

Last coats a little medium plus tube colours. Here you can
add in BLOBs to your hearts content.

The addition of medium in the last stage , especially stand oil
handles any cases of underbound paint and strengthens
the coat , making it durable and difficult to damage with the
solvents used to remove picture varnish.
[ you must let the last coat - cure - before varnishing , with
BlOBs that could be over a year or two ].

Of course the above requires , a cartoon and colour studies.

I will leave the Black Oil stuff to the others.

Linseed oil was I believe used by the Egyptians.
Manganese exists naturally in Umbers , Siennas [ Burnt as
well ] so any use of an umber / sienna soil would have
added a drier to the paint.

Aside -
Turpentine , I believe was extracted by the Greeks who
suspended fleece over a hot water bath with pine logs
in the boil - anyone ?

Lead White was also known since at least the Greek times.

Cobalt may have been an impurity in glass , or as an ingredient.
Also exists naturally with manganese in ores . I believe
the early Chinese vases [ less cobalty blue ] would have had
manganese.
So if they were trading with the Arabs , someone was probably
adding this ore [ exists as pebbles ] to linseed oil.

As to Cracking.

Lead White is listed as a poor drier .

The most important reason for me not using Lead White , is
that in black and white , written in Knut Nicolaus's - The Restoration of Paintings is something like - after 50 years all oil paintings exhibit ageing effects.

So all you can do is not add too much to the situation.

Hope this helps.
Titanium
exhibit

impressionist2
03-05-2002, 01:44 PM
Titanium wrote:


"Renee , sometime ago on Cowdisley , someone noted in a
book that Rembrandt's spectacular BLOBS [ impasto ] were
measured as not being that high off of the canvas. "

Titanium, Thanks for all the information.

A while back, someone else noted that some of Sargent's "blobs" were an inch thick!

Leopoldo, Bobbi sent me the link to the painting of your son. You do very nice work, esp. his hair! I think you would be excellent in formal portraiture, Have you ever considered it? If you already are involved in that, send links please.

Renee, just having fun making little "blobs"

Leopoldo1
03-05-2002, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by impressionist2

Leopoldo, Bobbi sent me the link to the painting of your son. You do very nice work, esp. his hair! I think you would be excellent in formal portraiture, Have you ever considered it? If you already are involved in that, send links please.


Thanks Renee! Not really. I haven't done that many portraits but the draw for me for doing more is becoming more alluring lately. I like the words of John Howard Sanden that pretty much sums up that allure. "I cannot think of anything more difficult, or more fascinating, than attempting to paint an informative impression of a human being, in oils, in one sitting. To accomplish this singular and exacting task requires a considerable amount of energy, intelligence, perception, basic knowledge, sensitivity, and nerve. I am getting much quicker with my work but the kicker for me is "in one sitting"!. Something to work toward. Thanks again for your positive words............L

Scott Methvin
03-05-2002, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by Titanium


As to Cracking.

Lead White is listed as a poor drier .

The most important reason for me not using Lead White , is
that in black and white , written in Knut Nicolaus's - The Restoration of Paintings is something like - after 50 years all oil paintings exhibit ageing effects.

So all you can do is not add too much to the situation.



Titanium man,

Lead is the LAST part of a painting to crack. It is THE BEST drier known to oil painting. I have Knut's book and he put a nice book together. I don't believe he said lead was a poor drier. If he did he is 100% wrong. (Maroger's medium and black oil, I don't know...I don't use them, so I don't care.)

Restorers are wrong all the time. Every generation of restorers blames the one before. Art historians are another bunch of painter wanna-bees.

Thick lead passages in old painting are THE BEST preserved parts. The thinner dark areas are the first to go south.

Leopoldo1
03-05-2002, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by Scott Methvin


Titanium man,

Lead is the LAST part of a painting to crack. It is THE BEST drier known to oil painting. I have Knut's book and he put a nice book together. I don't believe he said lead was a poor drier. If he did he is 100% wrong. (Maroger's medium and black oil, I don't know...I don't use them, so I don't care.)

Restorers are wrong all the time. Every generation of restorers blames the one before. Art historians are another bunch of painter wanna-bees.

Thick lead passages in old painting are THE BEST preserved parts. The thinner dark areas are the first to go south.

Senor Mesa, very well said and amen!....L

Titanium
03-06-2002, 05:21 AM
Senor Mesa ,

I do wish you would take your time reading what I write.

Those are two separate sentences.
I never said Knut Nicolaus said lead is a poor drier.

Lead is a poor drier [ of course I expect the reader to
have some basic knowledge of driers and % used]

You have to use a good deal of lead , when comparing to
cobalt or manganese.

What your missing is Lead is a good - POLYMERISER -
which is superior drying to Oxidation [ as brought about
by cobalt and manganese { though manganese has some
polymerising action ].
Lead also has many other superior qualities.

I have already stated that Lead is the best so far .
Please remember I said for - ME - what Knut said was
enough.
What's you problem ??

I understand your skeptical attitude , but I don't know
any 500 year old Fine Artists.

Please also remember , I am not in North America and
do not have the fears and problems , about health
prevelant on your side. My opinions are from reading
and talking to chemists , restorers and others from
here and the other side of the Atlantic .
Titanium

Scott Methvin
03-06-2002, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Titanium
Senor Mesa ,

I do wish you would take your time reading what I write.

Those are two separate sentences.
I never said Knut Nicolaus said lead is a poor drier.

Lead is a poor drier [ of course I expect the reader to
have some basic knowledge of driers and % used]

You have to use a good deal of lead , when comparing to
cobalt or manganese.

What your missing is Lead is a good - POLYMERISER -
which is superior drying to Oxidation [ as brought about
by cobalt and manganese { though manganese has some
polymerising action ].
Lead also has many other superior qualities.

I have already stated that Lead is the best so far .
Please remember I said for - ME - what Knut said was
enough.
What's you problem ??

I understand your skeptical attitude , but I don't know
any 500 year old Fine Artists.

Please also remember , I am not in North America and
do not have the fears and problems , about health
prevelant on your side. My opinions are from reading
and talking to chemists , restorers and others from
here and the other side of the Atlantic .
Titanium


Khaimraj (coldbozo),

Refer to the way your post reads. If it was confusing, or unclear, it is not the fault of the reader.

I will say it again. Lead is the safest drier there is. I am not 500 years old but my own use and experimentation has shown this to be true. 550 years of oil paintings hanging in museums back me up, as well.

If you are claiming that drying and polymerising are different, then that is like asking what the definition of is, is. My problem with your post is that you make these erroneous statements and get all huffy when you are called on them. Maybe you should be more judicious with how you present statements of fact.

There are thousands of oil painters that never, ever try lead white in an oil painting. Because they think they may get sick from using it. To have a fellow painter say it is a poor drier just makes it worse. Those scared painters are really missing out.

We have a few years of history online and I certainly consider you a friend. Just proof it before you post it.

regards,
Scott-(champion of all things lead)

Scott Methvin
03-06-2002, 11:47 AM
Khaimraj,

I also take issue with your opening sentance of your tag-line.

Heat bodied oil is not a good way to make paint. Far better to use raw cold-pressed.

Sorry, I just had to say something:)

Titanium
03-06-2002, 04:18 PM
Scott ,

Renee asked many questions , I did my best.

I imagine those scared painters can read and
think independently.

My apologies if it was not good enough for you.

Salutations , oh champion of all things lead.
Titanium

impressionist2
03-07-2002, 11:01 AM
Titanium and Scott, I appreciate ( and my pal, Bobbi does too) all the input even if there are some differences of opinion. I inquired twice yesterday of Riebe's art supply, an independent art supply store, but in biz for many years and Pearl paint, about whether they sell lead driers.

Riebes manager reacted immediately and brought out the chemical bible. Started saying they won't even order lead driers as NY state has so many restrictions through the state EPA. As I left the store he was still muttering to himself aghast at the qualities and toxicity of black oil. Sigh!

Pearl only carries one brand, a Coursai(?) or something like that.

So, if I decide I can always order it. I posted the same question on my plein air list. Will post any interesting replies.

For now, I am just puttering along with no driers till I make a decision.

Sorry for all the questions, but it is an interesting topic.

Renee

G.L. Hoff
03-07-2002, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by impressionist2
Titanium and Scott, I appreciate ( and my pal, Bobbi does too) all the input even if there are some differences of opinion. I inquired twice yesterday of Riebe's art supply, an independent art supply store, but in biz for many years and Pearl paint, about whether they sell lead driers.

Riebes manager reacted immediately and brought out the chemical bible. Started saying they won't even order lead driers as NY state has so many restrictions through the state EPA.

Said it before, will say it again: you can buy Liquid Lead (a drier) from Robert Doak in Brooklyn, NY (see above). Dunno about NY and their restrictions, but I can tell you you can get it there, 'cause I just did about a month ago...you can also get "black oil" from Studio Products, probably from Doak, and also from The Italian Art Store...this also is a leaded oil that dries well and quickly.

Oh, and fwiw, cadmium might be more toxic than lead, but we use it every day, don't we?

Regards

Titanium
03-07-2002, 06:11 PM
Renee ,

as always - Check Doctor or Medical Person and
Get Blood Test , once or twice a year.
[ required to say that ]
___________________

If you just take Lead shot or Lead fishing weights
and rest them at the bottom of a bottle of drying
oil , the lead will react with the drying oil to give
an oil with a lead drier.

On another list , a friend said she sun-thickened
linseed over lead shot . Streaks of white formed
[ I believe that's the lead reaction ].
See , I believe Doerner for this information.

You can also do this with umber powder and the
manganese will also react with the drying oil.
[ W and N sells this type of drying oil ]

Make sure the lead shot is lead shot and not
bismuth shot , and that the shot and fishing
weight is not resin or plastic coated.

Viola , that should give you what you want.

Painting is coming along nicely. What are you
using paint wise ?
Live model , drying or photograph to drawing ?
Yack a bit about it.

If your lucky Scott will have additional information
on the above. Let's hope he passes by.
Titanium

impressionist2
03-07-2002, 07:02 PM
Titanium wrote: "Painting is coming along nicely. What are you
using paint wise ?
Live model , drying or photograph to drawing ?
Yack a bit about it."


Titanium, Thank you. I have a couple hundred photographs of models from over 7 years of live model class. Thank goodness my instructor let us photograph them. We were always required to explain to the model that we intended to paint them later and got their permission. I dragged them out and I am using them. It really wouldn't matter because with this style, the painting is very different from the photograph and I just use them for reference.

I am really looking for good composition and placement of features and then by the time I get done with the color and value, you'd never recognize the model anyway.

Yes, I am happy with the development of this painting. I continue to emphasize the value and it's amazing how dark you can continue to go.By the time the value is in, the colors are forced to unify. I do that with a very limited palette.

I am using Danacolors and love them. I do not use turps or thinners and a tiny bit of sunthickened linseed oil ( you don't need more than a touch, if at all, with danacolors) and I work on white canvas, not toned. I clean the brush by squeezing almost all the paint out and then dip it in veggie oil and squeeze out the oil till the oil runs clear. Wiping the brush clean before reusing. No chemicals, no fumes.( So you know with this kind of safety attitude, why I am asking so many questions!)

I spend most of my time planning the composition. I crop the photo with edges till I see what I want. Sketch in with vine charcoal on the canvas and get the design that is most pleasing. Then, the foundation of the house is ready to go.


The plan is to finish 20 similiar paintings and take multiple slides and start the galleries push. I already have an "in" out here from being in past shows , and the director told me I will be getting an opportunity to be in an upcoming figurative show. Lots of work coming up.


Renee

impressionist2
03-08-2002, 07:15 AM
Since you are all well informed when it comes to chemistry, I thought you'd find this informative post from my plein air list interesting. Renee:


VARNISH ISSUES

I offer this as a way of clearing up a few of the varnish questions.
Varnish is used to enrich the colors of a painting, saturate the dark
passages, control gloss, and to protect the paintingıs surface. Early
varnishes were hard, natural resins melted into hot linseed oil or other
drying oils and are often called "oil-run varnishes". Like the oils they
were melted into, the hard resins tended to darken and yellow with age
and
have become extremely difficult to safely remove from paintings. Soft
natural resins, such as mastic and damar, came into use in the early 18th
century and were made into varnish by dissolving the resin into
turpentine.
They too darken but are more easily removed. During the late 18th and
throughout the 19th century, these soft resins were generously added
to oil
painting media, making those painting difficult to clean.
During the 20th century, synthetic resin varnishes were developed that
showed great promise since they were easily removable from paintings
and
generally did not yellow. Unlike natural resins, the
high-molecular-weight
long-chain synthetic resins do not saturate the paint film, but lay on the
surface of the painting. Some synthetic varnishes tend not to bond well
to
the paint surface resulting in separation between layers and a disruption
in
the varnishıs transparency.
There are short-chain low-molecular weight synthetic resins that
perform
virtually identically to the natural resin varnishes but unfortunately,
they
yellow like damar and mastic. René de la Rie initiated research into this
modern synthetic resin as conservation scientist at the Metropolitan
Museum
and continued his studies after his move to the National Gallery of Art
where he is head of the scientific research department in the
conservation
division. By adding a stabilizing agent to the varnish, he was able to
develop a short-chain synthetic varnish with the appearance of the
natural
resin varnishes and the non-yellow and easy removal of the long-chain
synthetic varnishes. Since some synthetic resin varnishes cross link and
require a stronger solvent for removal, extensive testing was carried
out on
the new aldehyde resin varnish by artificial aging in a weatherometer.
Knowing how both natural resin and synthetic resin varnishes behave as
they
age allowed comparison with the new varnish. Dr. de la Rie has widely
published the results of his research including the formulation of the
varnish. Conservators have used the new aldehyde varnish but since it
required complicated formulation from basic raw materials, artists
rarely
used it.
Robert Gamblin, a long-time friend of conservators at the National
Gallery
of Art, the Smithsonian Institution, and elsewhere, began commercial
production of the varnish coating under the trade name of "Gamvar". A
portion of the long-term profits from the sale of Gamvar will go to
support
conservation research at the National Gallery of Art. Its ease of use
makes
Gamvar popular with painting conservators and convenient for artists.
The
varnish is packaged as two components: a solvent and the solids. Mix the
two together and let them stand in a warm place. Periodically shake the
solution to help dissolve the solids. The varnish is ready to use after
standing overnight. Gamvar is best applied as a brush coating rather
than
spraying. To reduce the gloss a very small portion of wax may be added
to
the solution. If it sets too quickly, it may be thinned with mineral
spirits. If the varnish is "floated" on with a loaded brush, a gloss
surface results. If bushing of the varnish is continued until it becomes
tacky (change to a clean dry brush as it becomes tacky) a satin finish will
result without the use of wax. Unlike thicker natural resin varnish
coatings, the thin Gamvar coating is easily permeated by oxygen, allowing
the paint layers to dry normally. The Gamvar coating is easily removed
with
mineral spirits and one should be careful not to remove accumulated
dust
with a rag containing mineral spirits.
Neither natural nor synthetic varnish resins should be used in the paint
medium since they remain soluble. This is especially for the synthetic
resins.

Ross Merrill
Chief of Conservation
National Gallery of Art
Washington, DC 20565



http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Mar-2002/Lisa10.jpg

vallarta
03-09-2002, 05:26 PM
If your really that eager to paint in oils and have them dry before the brush is set down....hehehe....I do suggest again....USE ACRYLICS.

Almost all the "modern artists" have switched to acrylics because they can paint a 8ft x 8ft painting in a day. The only real reasons to work in oils are:

You want to produce delicate luminasity.

You want to use delicate glazes.

You want to say it is an oil painting.

You want to be able to scrape off mistakes instead of covering them with gesso as you do in acrylics.

You want to work slowly.

You do not want to experiment with dryers, mediums, mixes, etc.

You do not need the most vibrant colors. Acrylics are usually more vibrant in the tube then the same colors in oil paints.

All the reasons to use oil mean you want to work slowly. You do not want to paint and sell a painting in 24 to 48 hrs. So if that is what you want .....I say again...paint in acrylics.
vallarta

G.L. Hoff
03-09-2002, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by vallarta
If your really that eager to paint in oils and have them dry before the brush is set down....hehehe....I do suggest again....USE ACRYLICS.

Almost all the "modern artists" have switched to acrylics because they can paint a 8ft x 8ft painting in a day. The only real reasons to work in oils are:

You want to produce delicate luminasity.

You want to use delicate glazes.

You want to say it is an oil painting.

You want to be able to scrape off mistakes instead of covering them with gesso as you do in acrylics.

You want to work slowly.

You do not want to experiment with dryers, mediums, mixes, etc.

You do not need the most vibrant colors. Acrylics are usually more vibrant in the tube then the same colors in oil paints.

All the reasons to use oil mean you want to work slowly. You do not want to paint and sell a painting in 24 to 48 hrs. So if that is what you want .....I say again...paint in acrylics.
vallarta

What an odd set of statements . I'd say the real reasons to work with oils are:
1) you want to sell your work more easily (oils are still more saleable than acrylics)
2) you want deep, vibrant color (acrylics, unless handled very well, often look shallow and dead)
3) you DO want to experiment with mediums, mixes, dryers, etc (see above)


As to "vibrancy" of color, don't you mean color saturation? Do you really believe that "almost all the "modern artists" have switched to acrylics?" And lastly, see above regarding drying times...using certain items you can actually make a touch-dry oil in a day or so.

Sheesh.