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rebob
02-26-2002, 12:42 AM
Hi all,

I hope I can explain this intelligently.

When mixing various tube colors, it is imperative that one use paints that have a bias towards a colors that are not complimentaries of each other; otherwise...you get mud, right?

I have a problem with oils (by any manufacturer I've tried) in that the mfg. doesn't tell you what the color is biased towards. In acrylics, at least Liquitex showed this info on each tube (as of a couple of years ago, anyway.

Is there a way for me to determine the bias of oils? I don't think knowing the pigment will help in most cases - especially in single pigment colors like (?) cadmuim yellow... a book I have says it is a "red-shade yellow", ie a yellow biased towards red.

Can someone help here, I'm really trying to work on cleaner colors.

Thanks,

Bob

djstar
02-26-2002, 02:22 AM
Can't help you with the info, but as I keep learning and playing with oils, I am wondering what the big stink is about CLEAN?
Brown or grayed colors are perfectly good!
Almost all of them are, in some way muddied unless all you want is a clear pure color. Not variations on the themes.
My first response to what you are talking about might be to mix up a sample color chart and see what happens.
I know it is pretty expensive to go out testing tubes...ah, I think I get the problem!
You know the old theory of buying a warm and cool of each of the basic colors and mixing from there....
THAT much a color chart at the store should show you.
What I learned about oils as I go is, there are really rich pigmented colors and very thinly pigmented colors. Hardest thing is to keep the smaller dabs of the rich and intense ones from overpowering the more delicate color mixtures.
I only picked up oils a couple of years ago. I dabbled in acrylics on anything but art, and I see what you mean about the cleaness of the colors. BUT the beauty of oil is the ability to slop them around and rearrange things. That slow dry is the fun part but it is how things turn to mud too.
Just putting in my opinions, and offering absolutely no help!
Thanks for listening.
dj*

bruin70
02-26-2002, 08:01 PM
"mud" is an "illusion". you can use any combination you want. just use them in the right context.

if anyone has been telling you to avoid mud or learn about "biased" colors, they don't know how to paint......{M}

Einion
02-26-2002, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by rebob
When mixing various tube colors, it is imperative that one use paints that have a bias towards a colors that are not complimentaries of each other; otherwise...you get mud, right?
If I understand what you are asking correctly, not really. Biases being complementary is not really what it's about, rather, it is whether the bias of a given two colours in a mix is the same, or to put it another way, whether the colours lean towards each other (or the same intermediary hue) or away. If we consider primaries, take an orange-yellow and a violet-blue on the one hand and a green-yellow and a green-blue on the other, then obviously the second two will mix much cleaner greens since both colours lean towards green. As the saying goes, blue and yellow don't make green - it is the green already present in each colour that determines whether the resulting mix is clean or dirty.

I have a problem with oils (by any manufacturer I've tried) in that the mfg. doesn't tell you what the color is biased towards.
In acrylics, at least Liquitex showed this info on each tube (as of a couple of years ago, anyway.
Yep, it is certainly very useful to have this sort of information listed on the tube but unfortunately rare. That's one of the things that makes hand-painted colour charts and labels so valuable. But opacity, undercolour/masstone differences, tint/glaze differences and staining are all important attributes too, it would be very hard to list all of this information on the label. Even if it was listed you would really need to actually play with a colour to get a good appreciation of what it's like in practice; Gamblin and Golden websites mention this sort of thing for their colours to give one a better idea of what they are like before buying, but is no substitute for actual hands-on use. A good example of this might be phthalo blue, it's one thing to read how highly staining it is, but quite another to actually experience how strong it is in mixes with other colours.

Is there a way for me to determine the bias of oils?
Yes, it's quite easy. Take the colour you're unfamiliar with and mix it with a colour that you know well, the result will tell you about the bias of the unknown one. So, if you have Unknown Red #1 and you mix it with an orange-yellow and you get clean oranges then you know you have a red that is biased strongly towards orange. If, on the other hand, you get very dull tans you know the red is strongly biased towards violet; but if you get so-so oranges and also reasonable violets then the red in question has no strong leaning either way. Reds that exhibit these properties are for example, Cadmium Red Light, Quinacridone Magenta and Naphthol Carbamide respectively.

Once you have colours from you palette mapped out in this way they can be used as landmarks to help place others - it is much easier for humans to pin a colour down in comparison to others than in isolation. For example if you had Quinacridone Rose you might find it hard to see if it is biased, but put it against another red and it becomes immediately obvious - for instance against a medium cadmium red the violet leaning will be plain (and the orange leaning of the cadmium also). When you have done this for a while it starts to educate your eye and before you know it you will be able to discern colour bias just by looking.

Blue And Yellow Don't Make Green by Michael Wilcox is the best starting point to find out about colour bias. The above routine is explained in more detail and seeing the idea of colours that lean towards or away from their intermediary mixed hue is much easier to grasp visually than I might have explained it here. If you're lucky you might also learn to look at colour in a whole new way, almost bypassing the standard visual pathway that says simply GREEN or whatever. It can become such second nature that everything can be seen in this way with no effort so that car is a dark-valued, slightly neutral violet-red instead of burgundy, or that patch of lawn is a light-valued, low-chroma yellow-green instead of just sunlit grass. This is extremely valuable in accurate colour matching as it gives you intellectual pointers to a colour's nature, making it easier to approach when mixing.

I don't think knowing the pigment will help in most cases - especially in single pigment colors like (?) cadmuim yellow... a book I have says it is a "red-shade yellow", ie a yellow biased towards red
Firstly it is slightly more accurate to say that a yellow is biased towards orange, not red. It's a subtle but important distinction to make as orange is a distinct hue and is reached first, this is why I think the name Phthalo Blue Red Shade is misleading as of course it does not lean really towards red, it leans towards violet. Anyway, you are correct, knowing the pigment does not help for a number of cases, but it does in others. For example PY35 varies from a lighter-valued green-biased yellow to darker orange-yellows all with the same pigment name. On the other hand a colour like PB15:3 is fairly consistent in that it leans towards green, it just varies in how pronounced this leaning is.

dj makes a very good point here that is vital to consider in practical colour mixing - MOST colours in nature are not the very brightest, cleanest, eye-poppingest examples of their hues, but rather various slightly duller, more neutral versions. This is why many of us could live happily without a pigment orange, most of us could live without a pigment green and almost all of us could live without a pigment violet.

Einion

djstar
02-27-2002, 12:00 AM
This is why many of us could live happily without a pigment orange, most of us could live without a pigment green and almost all of us could live without a pigment violet. Those are my FAVORITES!!!!
(nudge nudge, wink wink)
dj*

Einion
02-27-2002, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by bruin70
"mud" is an "illusion". you can use any combination you want. just use them in the right context.
Low-chroma colours are still low-chroma colours no matter what you call them, they can be made to look higher in chroma (which is really an illusion!) but dey's still mud :D

Originally posted by bruin70
"if anyone has been telling you to avoid mud or learn about "biased" colors, they don't know how to paint......{M}
Come on Milt, I know colour is not important to your work but it is to most painters. It can be extremely frustrating trying to mix accurate colour matches to the real world, anything that speeds up the process of learning how is a good thing, and since colour-bias theory is possibly the best, certainly one of the easiest-to-learn, routes to understanding practical colour mixing it shouldn't be dismissed so lightly.

Einion
Colour bias proponent and all-round colour fan

rebob
02-27-2002, 12:31 AM
Einion,

Thank you. You have really helped me here! Your explanation "hits the nail on the head" and is easy to understand. I'll be sure and get a copy of Wilcox's book (and read it, too) :)

Bob

bruin70
02-27-2002, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by Einion

Come on Milt, I know colour is not important to your work but it is to most painters. It can be extremely frustrating trying to mix accurate colour matches to the real world, anything that speeds up the process of learning how is a good thing, and since colour-bias theory is possibly the best, certainly one of the easiest-to-learn, routes to understanding practical colour mixing it shouldn't be dismissed so lightly.

Einion
Colour bias proponent and all-round colour fan
ah, ah, ah, E.........color IS important in my work.

1,,,they're just not as important as values.

2,,,i know how to use them on my canvas.

3,,,i CERTAINLY don't advocate their use,,,they're for me. however, being told NOt to use them points to an inability to handle or understand color in general

mame
02-27-2002, 08:46 AM
I've been studying Bruin's "color" since I discovered his work here at WC. I dare ya to try to simulate his value relationships. It aint easy. His work IS "color". How you see it just depends on how sophisticated your eye is.

When Bruin speaks, listen.

Sorry Mr. Bruin. The cat's out of the bag. You're an art god.

Einion
02-28-2002, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by bruin70
however, being told NOt to use them points to an inability to handle or understand color in general
Who said that?

Einion

sandokan
03-01-2002, 05:47 AM
If I have understood, you need it:
http://www.schmincke.com/uk/uk_farben.php3?sorte=10http://www.schmincke.com/uk/uk_farben.php3?sorte=10 (mussini)

Tell me if I've understood!!!
Bye!
Sandokan

bruin70
03-01-2002, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by Einion

Who said that?

Einion


rebob said that it was imperative NOT to,,,,,

he got it from someone, somewhere......{M}

rebob
03-01-2002, 09:45 PM
bruin70:

This is what I originally said:

When mixing various tube colors, it is imperative that one use paints that have a bias towards a colors that are not complimentaries of each other; otherwise...you get mud, right? If you're going to quote, please get it right :)

I think this is the quote Einon was referring to:


however, being told NOt to use them points to an inability to handle or understand color in general

and that is quoted from you.

Bob

bruin70
03-02-2002, 06:55 AM
here's what i mean rebob.......sometimes i think i'm here if only to remind everyone that rules can be broken,,,,that there are no rules,,,,take it as you like.

so therefore my question to you is,,,,,,WHY is it imperative?

painting is the juxtaposition of brushwork, value, and color on a canvas. an artist can manipulate the illusion anyway he wishes. if you are to rely on simple answers to complicated nuances, then you may as well do leroy neiman paintings and throw subtlety out the window....;)

E, you said,,,"Low-chroma colours are still low-chroma colours no matter what you call them, they can be made to look higher in chroma (which is really an illusion!) but dey's still mud."

art is ALL about illusion, you can't speak in absolutes.......{M}

impressionist2
03-02-2002, 08:13 AM
Mame wrote:
"I've been studying Bruin's "color" since I discovered his work here at WC. I
dare ya to try to simulate his value relationships. It aint easy. His work IS
"color". How you see it just depends on how sophisticated your eye is.

When Bruin speaks, listen. "



I, too, have been studying and replicating Bruin's palette. It's one of the best teaching methods there is. His colors are pretty simple really and brilliant in their simplicity. But, the essence of his success, is he knows which color to place next to which, and in what value.

Renee

rebob
03-03-2002, 01:56 AM
HI bruin70,

here's what i mean rebob.......sometimes i think i'm here if only to remind everyone that rules can be broken,,,,that there are no rules,,,,take it as you like.

so therefore my question to you is,,,,,,WHY is it imperative?

Youbetcha - there are no rules in art! And as far as being imperative is concerned, I'll modify my original comment to read "It is imperative to ME, as I would like to know to make clean colors if I wanted to."

Jeez, all I asked was how does one tell/know what tubed oil colors are biased towards.

Bob

djstar
03-03-2002, 02:02 AM
Did I start this.....
sorry...

he he he.....

dj*

rebob
03-03-2002, 02:09 AM
Sandokan,

Thank you for the color charts. They are not exactly what I was asking. I was referring to the bias of various colors (I think in Italian you would say "Il pregiudizio del colore" (that's from an online translator - not me :) )

Grazie molto (from me, not from the online translator)

Bob

PS - see Einion's post of Feb 27.

Mario
03-03-2002, 05:30 PM
It's O.K. to have an attitude about color. So, no use trying to clean it up, in my opinion. Be opinionated all you want it's fun to witness dueling brushes.
I like that genre.."Sometimes, I think I'm here only to remind everyone that...." Fill in the blank...mine would be; Only to remind everyone that there are other ways to paint in Oils besides (instead of) blending and glazing. What's your answer to; fill in the blank??

AmyH
03-03-2002, 07:56 PM
i am holding a white piece of paper, I lay it on a white table cloth, now i see that i have a blueish table cloth, and a yellowish piece of paper. then i lay the same white piece of paper on a different table cloth, now its seems I have a greenish piece of paper and a redish table cloth. same paper, what in the hell??

let your eye be the judge. and paint bunches. :)

here's mud in yer eye! ;)

amy

impressionist2
03-04-2002, 07:07 AM
Amy wrote: "here's mud in yer eye ;), Amy"

Thanks for my morning laugh with coffee. As they said of the velociraptor in Juraissic Park, "Clever girl!"

Renee

Patrick1
03-06-2002, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by Einion Firstly it is slightly more accurate to say that a yellow is biased towards orange, not red...this is why I think the name Phthalo Blue Red Shade is misleading as of course it does not lean really towards red, it leans towards violet.


I agree here. Almost everywhere you hear "reddish blue", to describe, say, ultramarine blue. It seems to give the false impression that mixing a bit of red into a blue will give a clean, violet-ish blue. In most cases it won't. And a few blues and reds are complements and you'll get almost black.

Similarily you often hear "blueish red", seemingly implying that all you need to do is add blue to a middle red to get a clean rose or magenta. You probably won't even get close.

dj makes a very good point here that is vital to consider in practical colour mixing - MOST colours in nature are not the very brightest, cleanest, eye-poppingest examples of their hues, but rather various slightly duller, more neutral versions.
Interesting point, something I noticed a lot lately. Today I was looking at a painitng of a mountain in sunset where the top half was lit up
in what seemed a beautiful brilliant orange, and the sahdow portion seemingly a saturated blue.
But when I looked at the sun-lit color in isolation, it turned out to be virtually the exact same color as the skin on my hand! (A desaturated, light-valued orange approximately). Yet next to the blue, it looked like a brilliantly illuminated mountain face. It's not just the color you use, but how you use it with other colors around it.

rebob
03-07-2002, 01:42 AM
If anyone is interested, Einion suggested Michael Wilcox's book "Blue and Yellow Don't Make Green" to me. I've found out that the book is out of print and not available except as used - for which people are asking up to US$130.00 a copy.

Guess I'll just go play in the "mud"

Bob

Patrick1
03-07-2002, 02:10 AM
That's crazy ($130 used). I bought it this past August on-line and there is a local store that had it in stock too (but both were somewhat over-priced). Michael Wilcox's website seems to have new copies for sale (schoolofcolor.com).

diphascon
03-07-2002, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by Domer
Almost everywhere you hear "reddish blue", to describe, say, ultramarine blue. It seems to give the false impression that mixing a bit of red into a blue will give a clean, violet-ish blue. In most cases it won't. And a few blues and reds are complements and you'll get almost black.

Similarily you often hear "blueish red", seemingly implying that all you need to do is add blue to a middle red to get a clean rose or magenta. You probably won't even get close.

That's what I take from the concept of standard colour wheels, that you cannot get to highly saturated (highest chroma) colours by mixing. And the more apart the colours you mix are on the circle, the more desaturated the mixed result will be.

Having that in mind, the termini 'blueish red' and 'redish blue' are of some value for me.

(As has been stated already, the highly saturated colours are not that common in nature.)

cheers

martin

rebob
03-07-2002, 07:10 PM
Domer,

Thanks for the URL. Now that's more like it! (I thought US$130 was crazy too!)

Bob

Einion
03-07-2002, 11:08 PM
It would also be worth looking on <A HREF=http://www.abe.com>abebooks</A> (Advanced Book Exchange) or another good secondhand book finder where copies should be available for less than the cover price.

Einion

artbabe21
03-18-2002, 11:23 AM
This is the first place I go to look for a book, as they give you both new & used sites for books if they are available, many time what I 'thought' was out of print will be listed at say Amazon.com
new!

www.bookfinder.com

islandwoman
03-18-2002, 01:37 PM
I ordered the new revised paperback edition of Blue & Yellow Don't make Green from Amazon. It was supposed to be available & ship on 2/4. Just received notification of it's shipment on 3/16. Price $18.95 plus shipping.