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Phylax
04-12-2006, 06:52 PM
Hi there,

I'm all new to painter, but I thought it would be a great complementary utility to photoshop, which I'm using ever since to create photo compositing art. It is indeed, just one thing seems strange to me, especially when using Artists Oils:

The brushes are equipped with "virtual hairs", which make the strokes look realistic, but which don't change in size proportionally to the brush itself. Generally this is just resonable: Bigger brushes have more hairs, not bigger hairs...

The problem comes when trying to paint in a higher resolution, which you may need for professional output:

As far as I can see, the resolution you can enter creating a new canvas doesn't affect the hair's size (in pixels).

Example:
Im doing a painting of 20cm x 20cm for screen output (72 dpi) so a brush with a diameter of about one centimeter has a size of 15.

If now i wanted to do the very same painting (also 20cm x 20cm) for professional canvas output (e.g. 250 dpi) I'd have to increase the brushes size to about 50 to give it the same diameter of one centimeter on the high-res painting.

As told increasing a brushes size only increases a brushes number of "virtual hairs", not their size.

Thus the problem is that I am unable to generate the same style of stroke on a higher resolution canvas.

I hope I've been able to make clear, what is my problem, as it is quite complicated to explain.

Thanks for any assistance you can give me

Phylax


P.S.:

Im urrently using Corel Painter IX.5 with a Wacom Intuos3 A4.
The described problem shows worst when using Artists Oils, but also occurs with other techniques. The brush creator doesn't offer to vary the hair's size when using Artists Oils.

I apologize for any grammar mistakes in this post. I'm German so I ask you to be indulgent on my English:o.

Jin
04-12-2006, 07:58 PM
Hi Phylax,

Welcome! :)

Your English is fine and I understand your problem with the Painter IX Artist's Oils bristle size.

It's a new brush category introduced with this version and I'm hoping Corel will be able to make some improvements, including what you mention and another that some of us would like to see included. That is, the ability to create Captured Dab brush variants, or brush variants for which the brush dab is based on an image.

John Derry (early Painter developer and currently "Ambassador at Large" for Corel Painter) may be able to offer some better suggestions.

Here are mine for what they may be worth:

Play with the Artist's Oils brush controls, particularly the Bristling and Clumpiness sliders found in the Brush Controls' Artist's Oils palette.

Also test the bottom six Artist's Oils brush tip profiles found in the Brush Controls' Size palette.

I wonder, too, if working in three stages to block in large areas of color at smaller dimensions and lower resolution (ppi), resize upward to larger dimensions and a higher resolution (ppi) to add large details, then resize a last time to the final print dimensions and resolution (ppi) to paint fine details and clean up the painting in general. Working this way, you should be able to work with smaller brush sizes at each stage and finish with the appearance of a consistent brush stroke style and bristle size.

Now it's my turn to say I don't know if this is clear enough to be understood. ;)

You might want to send your suggestion directly to the Corel Painter developers as they welcome these thoughts from Painter users. Here's the e-mail address:

[email protected]


Good luck!

Phylax
04-12-2006, 08:41 PM
Thanks for your answer, Jin,

I'm almost glad, there wasn't any simple trick I had'nt disovered yet. Your suggestion seems quite sensible. When working low-res (which means you want to see the single bristle strokes) you won't win any (at least not much) detail, when working at a higher res...take the attached image for instance:

I imagine, if you blow it up using a good Algorithm an sharpen it, you might get an image that's suitable for high-res output, as there is no detail smaller than the strokes...if needed, one could probably, as you said, add some by working on the resized image...I'm gonna try this.

Thanks once more

Phylax

P.S.: The attached image isn't mine...i got it from some homepage, don't remember which, but it was listed on the Painter starting screen...I think its just great in terms of technique and inspiration.

Elvira
04-12-2006, 08:43 PM
When I look at my real (not digital) brushes the bristles are the same size even though the brushes are larger and have more bristles. My sable brushes have finer hair but they too only get more hair as the brush size changes the hair doesn't change. So I'm not sure what it is you want digital brushes to do.

Edie

Chiers
04-12-2006, 09:09 PM
The way I see it is that just as if I were using a small, versus a large canvas in real life, I can get the same kind of strokes, it just takes more of them to cover the larger canvas. I find that to be true with a digital canvas also. There has never been any problem here as far as printing out high res. paintings. In fact the higher the res you paint at, the better the print quality. If you want to see more bristle, its just a matter of settings and choice of brushes. Maybe I'm missing something here.

Phylax
04-12-2006, 09:13 PM
Hi Elvira, thanks for your reply.

The problem with the digital world is, that you have to worry about resolution (in the literal sense this doesn't exist when talking about real paintings).

The width (thus the stroke) of a digital bristle is fixed to a certain number of pixels. The problem is, that the size of a pixel varies depending on the resolution used in print, so do the bristles as they are measured in pixels, not in inches and can't be resized. (at 200 hundred dpi a pixel measures 1/200 inch; at 72 dpi it measures 1/72 an so on.)

That's why I'm interested in way to vary the size of the bristles...

I hope I could explain, why this is just a matter in the digital world, you won't hav to deal with in the real world.

Greetings

Phylax

Phylax
04-12-2006, 09:20 PM
@ Chiers, thanks for answering,

certainly, its just a matter of choosing a brush. Unfortunately only the size of a brush, not that of it's bristles can be chosen when using Artist's oils.

painting at a higher resolution doesn't mean using a bigger canvas. Just see the example described in my first post, where I'm dealing with a 20x20cm canvas in both cases.


Phylax

As coming from the photo composer's direction im possibly a bit too concerned about resolution, which is the key to create impressive photo compositions (I'm used to files with about 8000 x 12000 pixels for a picture of 75 cm height)

Chiers
04-12-2006, 10:22 PM
painting at a higher resolution doesn't mean using a bigger canvas
Oh but when you are talking digital, yes it does mean a larger digital canvas! Open a 2x2 in 72ppi canvas, and a 2x2in 300ppi canvas. You will see that the digital representation of the 300ppi canvas is a lot larger than the 72ppi canvas. On a home printer, the 300ppi will usually print out nicely at a 4x4 size, while the 72ppi will not print out very well at even its 2x2 size.

Here is a 2x2 72ppi cavas,(It says 300 but I mistyped) and a 2x2 300ppi canvas,(sized down for posting). I have used the same brush on both of them and as you can see, even at the size of 75 the brush strokes look the same, just bigger. Increasing the brush size will give you a stroke with the same appearance on the larger canvas as it has on the smaller canvas.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Apr-2006/23771-2x2.JPG http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Apr-2006/23771-2x2_2.JPG

Phylax
04-13-2006, 02:59 AM
Thanks for the samples Chiers,

They're useful to explain the matter:
In relation to the whole canvas the 20-brush stroke on the 72ppi bitmap equals about the 75-brush stroke on the 300ppi bitmap.

But looking at them closely you will notice, that the strokes differ in appearance (though, as you say correctly, not in size relative to the canvas):

The 75-brush is composed of many more bristles than the 20-brush, which gives stroke another character.

If you take a look at the attached image you'll see that it's effectiveness depends partially on the size of the single bristles. Taking this image in the given resolution I seriously doubt one could print it with 40cm height. To do so you'd need more pixels (increased resolution). To fill those pixels with colors in the same way you need bigger brushes, which will have more bristles (not bigger ones) so you won't get the same "bristly" strokes as shown below.

I hope this helps to understand this is a matter of bristle size, which is not adjustable...thats the very problem...but it seems Painter doesn't include this feature with Artist's Oils (its possible with conventional brushes though).

Thanks to all of you.

As the subject is quite complicated and not easy to talk abaut without misunderstandings i suggest to close this thread, as Jin actually gave me the answer I was looking for.

That's for my newbie question

Greetz

Phylax

Jin
04-13-2006, 03:09 AM
Hi there,

I'm all new to painter, but I thought it would be a great complementary utility to photoshop, which I'm using ever since to create photo compositing art. It is indeed, just one thing seems strange to me, especially when using Artists Oils:

The brushes are equipped with "virtual hairs", which make the strokes look realistic, but which don't change in size proportionally to the brush itself. Generally this is just resonable: Bigger brushes have more hairs, not bigger hairs...

The problem comes when trying to paint in a higher resolution, which you may need for professional output:

As far as I can see, the resolution you can enter creating a new canvas doesn't affect the hair's size (in pixels).


You're right, the Resolution (PPI, or pixels per inch) we use doesn't affect the bristles' size, or hair size (in pixels, as we see the brushstrokes displayed on the screen without the image having been resized upward or downward).

It definitely does affect the bristle's or hair size, when the image is printed at 100%. The main purpose after all, for selecting a specific Resolution (PPI, or number of pixels per inch) in relation to specific dimensions in pixels is to determine printed image quality.

A 2 x 2 inch, 72 ppi image (equivalent of 144 x 144 pixels at 72 ppi) contains a total of 20,736 pixels (144 x 144 = 20,736).

A 2 x 2 inch, 300 ppi image (equivalent of 600 x 600 pixels at 300 ppi) contains a total of 360,000 pixels (600 x 600 = 360,000), or 17.36 times as many pixels as the 72 ppi image and that much more color information.

Using Sherry's two examples, I recreated them using the Artist's Oils' Dry Brush variant, saved the two files in TIFF format, then inserted them into a Star Office document. Here's a screen print of the print preview at 100%. It clearly demonstrates the difference when we choose 72 ppi and 300 ppi for two 2 x 2 inch Canvases, then print those images.

http://www.tutoralley.com/ubb/jins_images/sherry_staroffice_scrnprnt.jpg

I also did a test print on my black and white HP Laserjet printer and it looks the same except without color. The screen print examples shown here may measure differently on each person's screen due to their monitor settings. Mine is set to display 96 ppi with a screen resolution of 1280 x 1024 pixels and when I hold a ruler up to the screen, my example screen print images measure 2-1/4 inches square instead of 2 inches square. They print an exact 2 inches square, though.

Chiers
04-13-2006, 03:57 AM
But looking at them closely you will notice, that the strokes differ in appearance
Only in so much as every stroke will vary in appearance since pressure, angle, etc make a difference to each stroke. Thats part of why painter simulates the real thing so well. Just as no two strokes are just alike on my traditional canvas, neither are they alike on a painter canvas.

I guess my point is that there is nothing about your image that cannot be acomplished at any resolution in painter. It would be a mistake to think you can get a better image with low resolutions! Since you are a new painter user I'm sure you will discover that when you have more experience with it.