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NancyS.
04-02-2006, 05:17 PM
I'm thinking of buying a new computer and I've been looking at Macs. Does anyone have experience with the new iMacs? I'm thinking of the one with the 20" monitor, upgraded to 1 GB RAM, and graphics memory upgraded to 256 MB. I've looked at some of the threads in WetCanvas, much of the really technical talk is over my head. I want to use if for digital painting, using Painter and/or Photoshop. I don't need to do video editing or gaming, I don't currently do any 3D graphics, but that maybe something I would consider in the future. I've also looked at the Power Mac G5 but it is considerable more expensive. Does anyone know anything about those? Are they worth spending the extra money or would the iMac be adequate for what I need? Thank you so much for any info you all may be able to share with me.

Nancy

barryt
04-02-2006, 05:50 PM
I use an iMac, the flat screen with the dome, a G4, 17" screen. It has 768mb of ram, 80GB hard drive, 800mz processor. the new ones are all upgraded on that spec. I find it more than adequate, though a 20" screen would be fantastic. The broader screens are ideal for side by side work. There is a screen shot on my Snake charmer threadin th epainting alley. Heck here it is:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Apr-2006/70662-Screen_shot_at_work.jpg

I don't think you need to spend more, than an iMac.

NancyS.
04-02-2006, 06:58 PM
Barry, Thank you so much, that is very helpful info.

Mr_Pen
04-03-2006, 05:31 AM
Dear Nancy

I think this isn't the answer you want. But why did you chose Mac? I reccomend you to buy Windows. In the near future, Mac market will be almost dead. In Japan, there are many printing business companies that only use Mac, but it is just because they must keep using old assets.

If you'll buy new PC not for business, how about buy Windows? It's more cheaper and faster compared with Mac(faster than Power Mac). If you have enough money, how about buy Dell 30'' display? Because one of the few advantages of Mac is world-largest display. But if you want to use it, you must buy special graphics board for it. It's for 3D Game techs.

barryt
04-03-2006, 05:53 AM
I think Mr Pen's advice is typical Windows advice. The new iMacs are as fast as you'll find you need. I find it most strange that with some of my friends, they shop at the best shops, by good cars, but when it comes to computers, go for less quality build and sometimes take pride that someone's built them one really fast! Yhey wouldn't take that approach with their car or washing machine. Go with it!
Also the numbers game is not directly comparable.

Einion
04-03-2006, 06:29 AM
Does anyone have experience with the new iMacs? I'm thinking of the one with the 20" monitor, upgraded to 1 GB RAM, and graphics memory upgraded to 256 MB.
Hi Nancy, if you work at your own pace this should be fine I think. What's the chip speed?

I've also looked at the Power Mac G5 but it is considerable more expensive. Does anyone know anything about those?
These can be about the most powerful personal computers you can get.

The main difference between a really high-spec machine and the iMac you're thinking of will be in speed of different operations and unless you're working under the hammer all the time the additional cost may just not be worth the improvement in performance. And although a faster and more expandable machine could be argued to be a better bet in the long term I know plenty of pros who work at home that use quite under-powered machines by modern standards.

Einion

Elainepsq
04-03-2006, 07:12 AM
In this country Mac is alive and well, and gaining in popularity. For my artwork at home, I'm using a quicksilver G4, with a 1 gig dual processor and it does fine with Painter, photoshop etc. The Imac is even faster! The major difference in the G5 over the imacs, is that the G5 is easier to upgrade. The big towers open easily. I've replaced a hard drive, placed a second on in there, put in more ram etc. I don't think it's as easy to do on the imac, but then again some people don't open their computers and work on them. Upgrading capability would be a good question to ask. With the difference in price, if I were buying a new MAC, I'd probably go for the less expensive imac, or mac mini (if I didn't need to replace my monitor also)
This is my third mac, and they run for years and years without problems. My second MAC, is 6 years old, was one of the first G4s, still running fine, and my son is doing video work on it.
Sitting on my desk at work, is a brand new Dell, and a six year old Mac G4, 350 mg dual processor. I have software on each that won't run on the other, I take graphics back and forth over the network without trouble. If I have my choice, and could get all the software on one computer, I'd keep my 6 year old mac over that DELL.

NancyS.
04-03-2006, 01:02 PM
Thank your, everyone, for your very helpful responses. I was a little afraid I would be opening the Mac-PC debate, I know there are strong opinions on either side.

Einion, I think the chip speed is 2 GHZ.

The one I've been looking at has an Intel chip. Does anyone know of any problems related to those, especially with art related software? I've heard that some software programs will not run on the Intel Macs.

Nancy

sketch-a-holic
04-03-2006, 01:41 PM
I recall hearing this too, but I am not quite sure, where I heard it or what I have heard... (wow, I am a big help). I believe that I read something about them not supporting the adobe software, or having lots of compatibility problems. Here is a link to the article I read, I hope this helps: http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/ The article is under highlights around the middle of the page.
If in doubt go bigger. There is nothing worse than gettting a machine that is too slow.
I use a dell at home, and a mac G5 at work. I LOVE the G5. I have only been using it for 6 months, but I am in love. My next home computer is definately going to be a mac.

Good luck, and I am jelous that you are getting one for home use....**sigh** .... ;)

jinn
04-03-2006, 07:17 PM
I'm ignoring (mostly) the previous answers and giving my own here.

I just bought a mac and will never again buy Windows, or a PC. Ever.

Here's the why, rolled up with a few of the reasons most people switch to macs:
1) There was a defect in Windows XP SP1 and SP2 that prevented Poser from rendering scene files with a specific number of polygons, or over. The rendering would stop, Poser would crash without ever exiting, and take Windows with it, forcing a hard-shutdown before it would stop with the locking up.

2) This bug was known. Microsoft knows about it, and outright refused to fix it. The creators of Poser couldn't do anything about it, and their response was basically to come out with a new version that did something differently to work around the bug in the rendering engine. if you know whta you're looking for, you can find this information in the MS knowledge base on their website.

3) Windows is slow. The hardware specs shows macs being much much slower in processing speed (at least, pre intel they did) however, you are not getting a true assessment of your processor or memory speed by the box-specs or build-it-yourself specs of any windows PC. The reason being you must constantly keep running any number of anti-virus, anti-spyware, anti-malware and firewall protection methods to keep this stuff from happening. That's a flawed model, in my opinion, instead of running extra software to FORBID things from happening, you should have to run extra software to ALLOW things to happen. I will not, however, get into an OS war here, that's just my opinion post computer-electrical engineering schooling.

4) Targeted market. Macs may be expensive, but they will last longer, have better support, maintain stability in the OS and hardware longer than any PC will. They are a worthy investment, and so are the service plans. You are guaranteed to have support from Mac, to the point where you can even pay some extra to get them to come out TO YOUR HOUSE on any day of the week and fix whatever may or may not be wrong. To get the same sort of support with any PC, be it Windows, Linux, BeOS or what have you, you have to pay through the nose to a third party company, and heaven forbid should they find you to have unliscensed software on your computer.

For that matter, all those things they install on your computer to help keep it clean? I've found more unliscensed, pirated software on my friends computer installed by his previous service tech than I've ever downloaded in my life. Even his copy of Windows is pirated, and that was put on by the service tech, "guaranteed to be legit" he said.

Uh huh. Sure. Whatever.

4a) Targeted marketing. Apple has, for years, devoted themselves to producing machines more suitable for printing, drawing, editing movies, graphics, sound, and creating music, graphics and sound than Windows could ever hope to have done. They excel in providing those products as well, and despite having a machine that's "slower" than the supposedly equivalent PC, my computer works much faster at doing what it does and what I do than any PC I've ever encountered, even the ones that were speced out with four and six processers to do these very things.

5) Color differences. This may sound funny to some of y'all, and you may or may not have noticed it. When using a PC, I used the stereotypical "apple" gamma settings because with my monitors, it looked better. Whites were whiter, etc. However, until I switched to using a real mac instead of just the video settings, I didn't ever see a monitor of any sort display a TRUE white setting, or what appears to me to be true white. I have a unique eye thing in that I'm tetrachromatic, so this may very well be a difference no one else has seen.

6) no viruses, thus no anti-virus software taking up system resources
7) no spyware, thus no anti-spyware software taking up system resources

(those two being of particular importance for those who run software that NEED those resources)

8) Simplicity - the "It just works factor". To install most things, I drag the icon into my "applications" folder, instead of going through a 5 minute long wizard installation process.

9) Reliability. While in the past there were issues in this regard, the more the operating system advances, the better it becomes. The more the OS advances, the faster the older machines run, with it. It makes more use of your hardware, etc. Essentially, even the older machines grow in power as the OS becomes better and better. Like I said, in the past, this wasn't the case, but it is becoming more and more so.

--

Let me point out that the argument of "mac is dying" is actually not true. A huge portion of the 'linux geeks' I know have switched to mac because mac is effectively the power and clarity of linux, but without the hassle. It's growing here, not dying. In the late 90's you didn't see macs anywhere other than print shops, like in Japan now, but they're growing and booming, especially as people recognize the iPod for the power it has and simplicity, and begin to think that perhaps this whole "mac thing" is worth more investigation.

Windows has it's places, and I know several people who have absolutely no trouble whatsoever using their Windows PCs for weeks at a time with no crashes, reboots, or problems. Me, at the end there, I was unable to go without rebooting twice a day, and please, don't suggest it's a hardware problem. It only happened on days I drew. :)

For anyone in the art world, be it painting, rendering, movie making, sound making, or even website design, I'd say, get a mac. You don't need an uberpowerful one to take advantage of the power it has behind it.

ALL THAT SAID - let me also point out that the change is a right pain in the rear. Everything is JUST different enough to make you hate it for about two weeks, then you go use your windows machine for something and you realize it feels clunky, and then it's all smooth sailing from there.

I actually find it hard and clunky and I get extremely impatient using windows machines now, much to my husbands amusement, who has been a mac convertee since 2003 or so.

-- posted from a dualcore powermac G5 2.3ghz.

I love my machine. Yes I do.

p.s. I keep my windows box alive, it's not going anywhere. Her name is Hathor, and she has a few uses, but you know, I haven't turrned it on in weeks?

jinn
04-03-2006, 07:23 PM
Oh! Nancy, also, yes there is one problem with the new Intel based macs.

Because the hardware archeticture is different, all software that's not built for the Intel-based OS has to be run through this program called "Rosetta Stone" which converts the differences in software from the PowerPC architecture to the Intel architecture. It slows it WAY beyond down.

I don't know if the software you'd be using has been converted yet to the Intel based architecture, so you may want to consider getting one of the last generation iMacs instead, the PowerPC g5. It will save you some money as well, even though you wont have the extra power behind it.

Check with the vendors of the software you'll be using before buying either mac!

NancyS.
04-03-2006, 09:31 PM
Wow, thanks, Jeanette! I've heard Macs talked up before but never so extensively or well put. You suggested getting one of the "last generation iMacs", do you mean a refurbished Mac from Apple? Or buying one used somewhere (eBay)? I did see some refurbished iMac PowerPcs on the Apple web site. I was wondering about those.

Thanks, Sketch-a-holic, for the info and the link to the article. I'll be looking at that.

jinn
04-03-2006, 11:45 PM
Yeah, refurb from apple works, or ebay, or local stores. Just make sure you're getting the G5 powerPC and not the Intel. I advise asking someone either in person or on the phone. But again, like I said, the software may have already been ported to the Intel architecture and you may not have to worry about that. Check with the speciality software vendors before you buy anything.

Alternatively, you could go with the PowerMacs, which aren't Intel yet, and will be like, really nice, if really expensive.

Einion
04-04-2006, 08:06 AM
I just bought a mac and will never again buy Windows, or a PC. Ever.
Brava :clap:

3) Windows is slow...
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Aug-2003/3842-thumbsup.gif

4) Targeted market. Macs may be expensive, but they will last longer, have better support, maintain stability in the OS and hardware longer than any PC will....
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Aug-2003/3842-thumbsup.gif Perhaps not any PC but if you want the same stability you have to pay the same kind of bread.

5) Color differences....
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Aug-2003/3842-thumbsup.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Aug-2003/3842-thumbsup.gif Yeah, until you've actually seen an image on a Macintosh monitor beside PC monitors, even with Adobe's Gamma loaded and running, you just can't imagine how much better the colour is on a Mac.

8) Simplicity - the "It just works factor". To install most things, I drag the icon into my "applications" folder, instead of going through a 5 minute long wizard installation process.
Too right. I had the chance to mention this just two days ago: uninstalling is just as easy - drag to wastebasket and delete! None of this 'search through the registry by hand...' lark.

Windows has it's places, and I know several people who have absolutely no trouble whatsoever using their Windows PCs for weeks at a time with no crashes, reboots, or problems.
Amen. This PC I got primarily for gaming. Oh and by the way something weird happened last week and it forgot what an EXE was :rolleyes: When that was fixed it forgot what a shortcut was... :mad:

Since we're sort of making a list I want to point out one more thing which is kinda important and that's cursor smoothness. My little iMac has the standard low-cost one-button mouse that comes as standard and in Photoshop and Illustrator there is just no comparison in smoothness between it and the Microsoft optical mouse on this PC here, which has a much more powerful processor, much more RAM and a 3D graphics card.

Einion

jinn
04-04-2006, 08:21 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Aug-2003/3842-thumbsup.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Aug-2003/3842-thumbsup.gif Yeah, until you've actually seen an image on a Macintosh monitor beside PC monitors, even with Adobe's Gamma loaded and running, you just can't imagine how much better the colour is on a Mac.


Well, heck, I don't even have an Apple display - My main monitor is a Samsung SyncMaster and my secondary is a... er.. I've forgotten what it is, actually, it's in the shed. The powerbutton broke and needs repairing. Either way, EVEN ON THESE it looks better. It's got to do with the way the OS handles the colors.

Artist_by_Accident
04-04-2006, 02:23 PM
Just a quick note - you might want to be very careful purchasing a refurbished iMac especially on eBay or from an individual as there were some major problems with the "first generation" G5 iMacs. Apple was good to fix them but they seemed to have had one problem after another. Then they put out a newer G5 iMac (2nd generation) which did better but seemed to still have some problems. Then the Intel iMac came out. I had planned to purchase the iMac when it first came out but when I read about the problems, I decided to wait & am glad I did. I still plan to purchase one in the next year or so but am waiting to make sure they are ok. As I said, Apple does repair or replace any defective hardware but I just don't want to go through the hassle of being without a computer for any length of time. Also, waiting will give the software vendors a chance to switch to the new Intel Apple computers if they haven't already & most of them have. If you're switching to a new iMac with the Intel chip from a PC, you're going to have to buy new software anyway & Adobe, Corel & the other major software vendors have already made versions of their software for the new Mac Intel platform so there shouldn't be any problems with compatibility.

You might want to check a few of the Mac forums to see what's happening with the iMacs today - one that I visit from time to time is http://www.macintouch.com/index.shtml and there are several others for you to check out.

Let us know what you decide!

ABA

NancyS.
04-04-2006, 09:52 PM
Thank you, everyone, you all have been so helpful. I love this forum!!

I found a refurbished iMac G5 20-inch on the Apple Store web site. I think I might try to do that. The Apple Protection Plan is available with it so it's a little safer than perhaps buying from eBay. I checked the Corel web site to see if the Painter software was compatible with the Intel Macs. They say it is but needs to run through the "Rosetta" which would slow it down according to what I've been hearing. Since that is the main software I wanted to use, I decided to look for an alternative to an iMac with intel.

Thanks again for all your help and good advice.

Nancy

Einion
04-05-2006, 10:06 AM
It's got to do with the way the OS handles the colors.
Yep. Although it pains me to have to say anything in support of Microsoft :lol: Windows was not written to do this kind of work and as you mentioned the Mac has been directly tailored for this purpose for a long time.


Glad to hear the thread was of some help Nancy. I presume you'll be getting a tablet too if you're using Painter? You need pressure-sensitive tools to get the most from the brushes and this can be very helpful in Photoshop too.

Einion

jageo
04-06-2006, 11:10 PM
If you're switching to a new iMac with the Intel chip from a PC, you're going to have to buy new software anyway & Adobe, Corel & the other major software vendors have already made versions of their software for the new Mac Intel platform so there shouldn't be any problems with compatibility.
ABA

I don't think this is exactly correct. Adobe plans to upgrade their software in their usual time frame. I've read anywhere from a year to a year and half before we'll see a Universal version of Creative Suite. And I'm quite sure I've read that Corel doesn't plan to upgrade their mac software at all past this point. The new Macs do not run Classic programs. So if you have any system 9 software you will have to upgrade or find something to take its place.

That said, I've just bought a brand new, intel inside, 20" iMac and I love it. It's zippy and beautiful. I use Photoshop and Illustrator to create and I haven't been bothered by the 'slowness' of it running under Rosetta. But I'm coming from a G3 emac so it's all faster for me. Really, it's not noticeable for me at all.

NancyS.
04-07-2006, 01:11 PM
Einion: Yes, I will be getting a tablet, I'm really looking forward to that. I read somewhere that trying to create digital art with a mouse is like trying to draw "with a bar of soap". I would have to agree with that. :)

Jageo: Thanks for that input. It's interesting to hear that you haven't been bothered by any slowing down running through Rosetta. I haven't purchased a computer yet, I'm still working on that. I currently use an old clunky PC, I can't even run Painter on it, so I'm sure anything would seem like a huge improvement.

jageo
05-12-2006, 10:22 PM
Just wanted to update this comment. I've had a month and change now with the new Intel imac and have seen a few quirks with Adobe CS2. I still haven't seen the slowness, but a few dialog boxes wouldn't let me input information via the keyboard and oddly enough my delete key wouldn't work in Illustrator. Nothing I couldn't work around at the time, and since then (software_updater later) I haven't seen that particular silliness.

The part that does make me grumble about the new Mac is the utility software that hasn't been ported to Universal yet. Nothing dreadful, but annoying enough that I haven't sold my old machine yet. Snapz ProX has a bug and the Windows Media Player won't let me watch my Triple-A baseball. Gosh darn it!

JA - Go Tacoma Rainiers!:wink2:

Smokin
05-12-2006, 10:43 PM
Awww Jeez This Discussion Again, Lol. :evil: (lil late i see though)

The fact is that MOST mac users and windows users have a good degree of biased opinions.

The truth is you can get a considerably faster machine if you dont go mac when looking to buy a computer between 500-2500.(obviously you can buy and overpriced mac or PC anywhere, just like you can find a super sale too, but im just talking about the average costs of machines) Once you get to looking at high end systems, macs get more competative when looking at comparing the amount of bang for the buck (3000 and up systems).

Macs are better OS, period, but they dont give you better color. This is one of those myths. The same monitors can e used for both a pc and macs, and the programs that govern what you see may be be set to defualt as somthing different, but they can do the same thing a,d manipulate the pixels the same way. UMMM, point is the windows can get you the same image if you put a mac side by side with a pc.



I just recently Purchased/built my own stystem. I know this is not an option for alot of people, (but it really is easy to do and you get sooooooo much more) But I know my OS system that i built for about 2k (expensive route) can ouutperform macs that go for about 3k and up (considerably). Yes I do have to put up with windows, but for me, since im used to windows, its a fair trade off when i consider the amount of speed this machine has.

Einion
05-13-2006, 03:19 AM
The fact is that MOST mac users and windows users have a good degree of biased opinions.
Bias is a very loaded word in this sort of thing and while it's very often true that a PC or Mac user will fly the flag of their respective system without really knowing much about the other I think it's clear that Jeannette certainly has no reason to have an unfair bias against PCs. Speaking for myself I've had to use a PC off and on for the last six years so despite having used Macs for 11 years I don't consider myself biased against PCs or Windows - my negative opinion on various aspects of them is firmly rooted on real-world problems.

Macs are better OS, period, but they dont give you better color. This is one of those myths.
<cough>sRGB v. Adobe RGB<cough>

Here's a concrete example: a friend has a ~$5,000 Sony Trinitron monitor and the colour on it, in Photoshop, isn't a patch on the colour on my cheap ol' iMac ;) And I can tell you from the comments on my gallery on dA that the vast majority of people (viewing it on PCs) don't see half the subtle details that are clearly visible on a Mac. I've also had the chance to view many of the same images side-by-side on three PCs at home when playing games on a LAN so I've seen the breadth of the problem firsthand.

Einion

Smokin
05-13-2006, 04:34 AM
:lol: K , Here we go.

Monitors vary in the brightness of their displays, known as the gamma value. An average gamma setting for Mac monitors is 1.8 gamma while that for an average PC is 2.5 gamma.

http://www.photoshopsupport.com/tutorials/cb/gamma.html

Its a setting, nothing special about a mac, nothing better with srgb VS RGB. Its simply a setting. All I know is most modern mac builds offer the SAME video card, and monitors PC use. If both hardware is identical on both platforms, the only color difference one should see is based on thier settings. (yeah I know vid cards need to be specifically made for macs, but the core elements of the card like the chips memory, gpu, none of that stuff is changed for macs,all that jusk is responsible for the picture on the screen)


I think it's clear that Jeannette certainly has no reason to have an unfair bias against PCs


Not disputing that no, but: K guess I' disect

1) There was a defect in Windows XP SP1 and SP2 that prevented Poser from rendering scene files with a specific number of polygons, or over. The rendering would stop, Poser would crash without ever exiting, and take Windows with it, forcing a hard-shutdown before it would stop with the locking up.

If you need to use Poser, then this is a valid point, But there will ALWAYS be issues with software for both macs and windows. Im sure there is someone out there cursing macs because thier programs arnt working the way they are supose to. Point is this has nothing to do with a PC/MAC debate, this is falls squarly on the devlepment of the software, is the devlepment team focusing thier product to work on macs, a PC or both, the answer to this will vary from program to program.

2. same point


3) Windows is slow.


K, this is where a statment like this is just not true, its an incomplete assement. Windows is an inferrior OS because IMO, it just hog resorce after resorce for stupid function and constantly adding background processes where as mac dont have this issue, either by design or by coinicdence, this is just true. Anyway, alot of these background programs can be turned off, like i have done, and here is the kick, if my PC that I bought for 2k has twice the power of a mac that costs the same(exagerated guestimate yes), how is a mac faster?

Targeted marketing. Apple has, for years, devoted themselves to producing machines more suitable for printing, drawing, editing movies, graphics, sound, and creating music, graphics and sound than Windows could ever hope to have done.

For most, the software being used is both identical to that of a PC, a mac painter 9 is the same as my PC painter 9. The printer for the macs nowadays are the same ones a pc uses.

8) Simplicity - the "It just works factor".

Is it easier to use macs, hell yes, but where is the work advantage when the program you are using wont change one IOTA from platform to platform. Again, it depends on what one gets a computer for and how they are using it for this to be a viable point, if one uses one program hours on end, they'll never realy get to experience the OS, pc or mac.

9)Reliability.

Again, loaded point. Yes windows overall is less stable because they tend to have ALOT of programs installed that cause conflicts with eachother blah blah blah. Macs tend to have a cleaner OS, running less junk to cause problems, but here is the kicker, .MY pc, that ive used for years and years, has only crashed once when working on a progect. My fualt really, but still. Is once to many, ... maybe for some, but not for me cause in exchange for this "reliablity" i get a MUCH faster processer.

:lol: guess i was bored. The thing that bugs me the most out of this debate is that one can assume from it, that simply by buying mac they with have something better. The real answer is far more complex than that and alot of factors need to be wieghed. Im more influenced by getting the most BANG for my buck, wanting the fasted processor I can afford so that I can have my programs runnning at lightning speed. If I had money to burn, Id have a mac quad core, but what fell into my budget was this awsome PC dual core, OMG im so happy with this!!!!
=-------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, a lil about my PC, .... I have a 4800x2 amd processor, LIGHTNING QUICK THING, 2 gigs of ram, a bitchin video card for games, and many more bells and whistles i prob didnt need. With this thing I can open any sized canvase, ok, thats not true, havnt checked how big i can go before lag, but i got upto, 8000 X 8000 pixels with no problems. I dont know how that compares to be honest, but i thought that ROCKED! Can also operate several large programs like painter and PS at the same time while runnig 3 monitors. Heck Ive even play vidimogames at the same time. (omg i have a monster computer, teehee)

http://www.systemshootouts.org/processors.html

Anyway based on this pc VS mac comparason that ennion turned me onto, the same computer in a mac version, would have been an extra 1k minus the extra bells and whistle i got as well.

Einion
05-14-2006, 07:51 PM
http://www.photoshopsupport.com/tutorials/cb/gamma.html

Its a setting, nothing special about a mac, nothing better with srgb VS RGB.
Wellllll... AdobeRGB1998 is larger than sRGB. sRGB is the PC default, hence they are inherently less accurate than Mac displays (out of the box). One might think this would be pretty subtle - a few 'brighter' colours would look better, big deal? - but accurate on-screen colour rendition is really important and in addition to the larger gamut the mapping of the colours is much different (anyone interested please go look this up) and this is where the larger part of the difference lies it would seem since an Apple monitor might only use Apple RGB which has a gamut very similar in size to sRGB (they mostly overlap).

I don't want to really argue about the other things, many of which are just our different opinions/viewpoints on the issues, but a couple of things I did want to tackle:

...if my PC that I bought for 2k has twice the power of a mac that costs the same(exagerated guestimate yes), how is a mac faster?
There's no way to argue against the fact that you can build a PC with great performance for less than the cost of an 'equivalent' Mac... but that's also true of the equivalent off-the-shelf PC! So it is a little unfair to use it as a means to argue the Mac v. PC thing. Yes you're right, but for a high-end machine bought from a retailer (like most people would buy) the costs have come much more into line over the years, something I learned from a PC magazine actually :)

Also, related to the power issue, how much RAM can you use in Windows XP Pro?

9)Reliability.
Again, loaded point. Yes windows overall is less stable because they tend to have ALOT of programs installed that cause conflicts with eachother blah blah blah.
Valid point. But why isn't really at issue is it? It's whether it's true or not that's really important :cool:

...but here is the kicker, .MY pc, that ive used for years and years, has only crashed once when working on a progect.
Rare exception :D

:lol: guess i was bored. The thing that bugs me the most out of this debate is that one can assume from it, that simply by buying mac they with have something better.
You're right it's not as simple as it can be made out to be; I don't know if you watch "Stargate SG-1" but this reminds me of an exchange that went something like this:
"What do you mean better?"
"Better, stronger, faster."

Einion

Smokin
05-15-2006, 08:27 AM
why isn't really at issue is it? It's whether it's true or not that's really important


well its in the "why" where the truth lives, not in blanket statments like "macs are better." :wink2:

There's no way to argue against the fact that you can build a PC with great performance for less than the cost of an 'equivalent' Mac... but that's also true of the equivalent off-the-shelf PC!

Yeah true, but not by much. I was actually tempted to purchase a dell which was on sale. It was about the same cost and I would have gotten more memory out of it. but the sacrifice is that I would be tied to dell's rules for upgrading. Anyway, building a computer IS an option people can and SHOULD take. The people im voicing my opinon to are those who have a low to mid range budget, there is definetly a give and take when chosing to go mac or PC. For that price range, going mac you sacrifice alot of processing power for a mac OS and well..... ummmm other stuff? Going PC, you have to deal with windows, which is no doubt a significant headache.

Anyway, yeah, ... mostly we are on the same page. Lets just chalk up the stuff we arnt to, im right u wrong. :p NO? :angel: In the end, nobody should believe a word you or i say, period, they should do thier own research and make an informed decision. All I can say to anyone looking for a new system is try to look for reviews of the computer/hardware/or software from sites that arnt biased tword it, i.e., dont believe an AMD review from a site called "amd fanboy".

Einion
05-15-2006, 10:17 AM
Anyway, yeah, ... mostly we are on the same page. Lets just chalk up the stuff we arnt to, im right u wrong. :p NO? :angel:
Okay sure: I'm right, you're wrong :D

In the end, nobody should believe a word you or i say, period, they should do thier own research and make an informed decision.
Not without checking for themselves, no. That would be like buying a car and only listening to what the salesman says.

All I can say to anyone looking for a new system is try to look for reviews of the computer/hardware/or software from sites that arnt biased tword it, i.e., dont believe an AMD review from a site called "amd fanboy".
LOL

Hey, you didn't answer the RAM question! ;)

Einion

jinn
05-15-2006, 01:38 PM
K, this is where a statment like this is just not true, its an incomplete assement. Windows is an inferrior OS because IMO, it just hog resorce after resorce for stupid function and constantly adding background processes where as mac dont have this issue, either by design or by coinicdence, this is just true. Anyway, alot of these background programs can be turned off, like i have done, and here is the kick, if my PC that I bought for 2k has twice the power of a mac that costs the same(exagerated guestimate yes), how is a mac faster?


I'm more than a little sick, so I'll look at the other points more later, right now I'll just answer this.

In this case, a mac isn't necessarily faster. But unless you've got a bucketload more knowledge relating to how operating systems (in this case Windows) works and how to keep your computer on the internet SAFELY (to avoid infection by malware, spyware, viruses and all that other crap) then you're not going to be able to achieve this effect. If you do know enough to make background processes not stay in memory, how to keep random programs from popping up and hogging memory Just Because They Can (tm) and are not residing behind a wizbang firewall that blocks all ports, scans all incoming and outgoing traffic for spy/malware and viruses and so on and so forth, you're going to loose that speed REALSTEENKINFAST(tm) because those things eat more memory, disk space and resources than Windows by itself can even DREAM of.

You can indeed custom build a machine that would blow away any mac on the market. In fact, I've done it myself. When I built my PC, Hathor, she was the fastest thing about, and very very very little tops a 4 harddrive RAID5 array for making darn skippy sure that I don't loose data.

You most certainly can make a windows PC run faster than a mac. You can spec out a PC to be the fastest dog on the track. But when it comes right down to it, is it worth the risk, or is it worth the extra hardware to keep it safe? Or is it worth keeping it never ever ever connected to the internet at all?

I once went to a client site with a laptop. I knew they had a virus. Nothing I could do about it, I was there to fix it, the machine I had with me was going to get infected. It took literally five seconds for my laptop to get it once I'd plugged it in.

Smokin
05-15-2006, 02:29 PM
@ Einion :lol:

Oh as far as the Ram goes, I dont know, never heard there was a cap for windows on the ram, but you're acting like there is. Anyway I have 2 gigs now, and my motherboard has room for 2 more. Id bet windows can accomidate 4 gigs witch is about twice more than 99.5% of what most users need.(unless interested in 3ding)

I did a quick search for the answer and saw caps (rediculously high caps) for other type of memory like page filing and other junk. Maybe an older wonows had memory cap?

@Jinn, I agree with all you say, but im not so gloom and doom about the saftey of a PC. Im actually quite "whatever" when it comes to the "saftey" of this thing. Mac can get viruses just as easily cant they? They just arnt popular enough or affordable enough for the hackers. :confused:

Only thing I disagree with is the notion that you need a bucket load of info to have a fast pc system. Im most cases, PC will work faster, stronger, better right off the shelf without ever having to tweak it when comparing it to a mac. I would say people should look into optimizing thier system though. It take about 6 hours to learn, go to a good "tweaking site".

jinn
05-15-2006, 02:41 PM
@Jinn, I agree with all you say, but im not so gloom and doom about the saftey of a PC. Im actually quite "whatever" when it comes to the "saftey" of this thing. Mac can get viruses just as easily cant they? They just arnt popular enough or affordable enough for the hackers. :confused:

It's some combination of "without the big glaringly obvious security holes" and "no one has written any" and "it's just not easy to infect because of the way they handle things" but I'm not up for researching the methods of that.

I hate to say it, and I don't want to sound mean, but if you're not worried about the safety and security of your machine, then you're really not getting as good of a performance boost as you might expect. You can tweak it about all you want in the ways you know and get some boosts from it, but you will be missing a lot. I did computer cleanup and security for years, you'd be suprised just how much people miss, overlook, and aren't aware of when it comes to keeping their machines from being infested with all the nasties you get attached to everyday email. A lot of ISPs have helped this problem by automatically scanning all incoming and outgoing email, but with things going as fast as they are, the scanners cannot keep on top of the viruses, and they can't even touch the spyware and stuff you pick up off of websites. If you're not using Internet Explorer, Outlook Express or Outlook, then you're much much much much much safer, so there's that as well.

Ug. I need a nap and a plunger to get the crap out of my lungs.

Elvira
05-15-2006, 05:03 PM
All I can say about this dumb arguement is if I had waited till I could afford a Mac that will do what I do with my PC I still would only be painting with paint and canvas.
Edie

yuccaview
05-16-2006, 01:11 PM
I am new here but not new to computers or graphics on computers.My wife and I have a giclee print business I am the artist/ printer she is a world class programmer and windoz /mac tech prerson.This last weekend a couple that are both traditional artist wanted us to help install their new imac ,scanner and printer and hook up to an existing dsl line.The imac is the new 20" intel dual
thing. We had the machine running with dsl ,a tablet and all the software they
wanted to learn installed in just about an hour.NO PROBLEMS AT ALL!.
The imac is just beautiful, it has a 2gig dual core chip we had them upgrade the ram to 1gig ,it came with 512 meg. it will hold 2 gig but they were on sort of a budget.They got thmselves a 4x5 tablet that had painter essentials and photoshop elements 3 and the scanner /printer was a canon that was a package deal with a rebate free.Granted that printer wasn't much too speak of but good enough to start.
I guess my point is we had this machine up and running and playing with the internet , painter and photoshop with none of the hassles a windows machine
usually has. Now I have NO interest in starting or continuing this mac verse
pc thing that is going on cause I really don't care who does what on which machine.
As far as speed of this imac there is no issue there,it was fast enough no
delay anywhere, granted the software was the lighter versions but it worked flawless,and that 20" monitor was great and if you wanted a second monitor
or had an old one setting around for tools it would support it.
I teach painter and photoshop and have been using a laptop for portatbility
but I just might get me one of these for the desktop space alone and it has the feel of a workstation.
In the shop we have very fast windows machines for rips but I paint and work on a couple of G5's and let my wife keep the windows machines running
its mostly a full time job.
Don

NancyS.
05-17-2006, 12:31 AM
Hey Don, I'm so glad to hear you say that. I did end up buying an iMac, infact it sounds very similar to the one your friends bought: intel, 1 gigbyte of RAM, and a 20" monitor. I've been happy with it so far. I did try to buy a refurbished pre-intel model but they were all sold by the time I was ready to do it so I went ahead and got the new one. I've been running the trial version of Painter IX.5. I'm still a real novice with it but for the most part everything seems to work fine and be fast enough. Sometimes some of the oil brushes seem to lag a bit but I haven't used Painter on any other machine so I don't have anything to compare it to, maybe this is normal. Anyway, I appreciate everyone's imput in helping me make this decision. You all have shared some good insights and valuable information. Thanks! :)

Nancy

yuccaview
05-17-2006, 12:48 PM
Congrats Nancy,
You will just love this machine more and more every day and you are right about the oil brushes it's all in the settings and you will figure it out.
Don

Chiers
05-17-2006, 02:27 PM
Okay, I'm going to put my two cents in too. I cannot compare pc to mac because all I have ever had is a pc, but I do want to say this.

I am a granny that didn't even know how to turn off a computer until about six yrs ago. I got my first computer basically free because I signed a 3 yr contract with MSN. The first time I got an error message that told me I was doing an illegal operation and my program was shutting down, I truly expected the feds to knock at my door any minute! Think I'm kidding? NOT.

I have never had any kind of computer class and anything I have learned about my computer, and surfing the net has been trial and error.

That first computer was the most basic model E Machines. Now I would guess that a puter sales person would try thier darndest to sway a person from and emachines puter since they never seemed to have a lot of good things to say about them. My daughter and I both got the same puter with the same deal. We both used them for the three yrs, and loved them but since they were so underpowered....remember...they cost us nothing, we upgraded to new E Machines which gave us the most bang for the buck since they were priced so far below competative brands, and we were totally satisfied with the brand. Having had the new one now for a couple yrs, I can say I am still completely happy with it.

I cannot talk the technical jargon with anyone when it comes to computers, but I can say that in all this time, I have never had a virus or any serious problem with my computer. I only have 512ram on my puter and can upgrade it to 2 gigs which I do want to do when I can. My puter is not a super duper beefed up speed demon by any means. In fact by now it is probably really underpowered compared to the new ones.

I have aprox 15 graphics programs, more if you count the photo album type programs, installed on my puter. I usually have psp, and painter, latest versions, open at the same time. I don't often have any problems with lag when I paint, and don't have freeze ups or even painter rarely goes poof on me. I am more likely to have a power outage than a freeze up or poof.

I have read many debates over this subject and a couple things seem pretty clear in all of them. Macs cost more....and there is a lot of software that won't run on them. Those two alone combined with my personal pc experiance are enough to disuade me from buying a mac! Then there are the minor things like many internet sites are not set up for macs and to interact with some of them one needs to learn html.....I don't know it....and don't want to learn it. sorry.

The point was made that pcs more often get a virus because they are the target of those who write them. Very true. It has nothing to do with macs being any better than pcs. And I am pretty sure that if macs were the predominant machines then the virus writers would be targeting macs and not pcs. The same applys to operating systems.

Like I said, I have never had a virus. I do have spyware removal programs and keep zone alarm active always. The free versions by the way. I try to keep my pc cleaned up but know there are a lot of tweaks that would really speed it up that I either don't know how to do or am too lazy to do.....and still.....no problems with my pc and its fast enough to keep me happy. Of course, sometimes it is slow on line, but I have dial up and it really has nothing to do with my pc.

PC versus MAC is really only a personal preference in my opinion. One cannot judge the two unless all factors are equal and they certainly are not. It just depends on what is most important to the individual. For me cost is always a huge factor but if I put that aside, for me pc still wins hands down.