View Full Version : Basic 102 Class 1 - Intermediate Perspective

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Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 01:09 AM
Picture Perfect Perspective Produced Painlessly

What do you think about when you hear this word? Have you ever thought about giving a word you don’t like a different name?
In this lesson we are going to take what you have learned, in past lessons, and bump it up a notch.

Perspective is the art of drawing and painting so that objects appear to have depth and distance. In linear perspective, it is a technique for suggesting depth in a picture by making parallel lines meet. Parallel lines don’t actually meet, of course, but they appear to, and in appearing to meet they plant in our minds the idea of distance.

We are surrounded everyday by examples of linear perspective. If parallel lines in real life seem to meet, it makes sense to have parallel lines, in our pictures meet. To draw a convincing picture using linear perspective, it is only necessary to understand a few simple definitions and rules. Once you have learned the rules, only then can you break them. If you never understand the rules, you will only look like an amateur.

Here is a quick review, of those definitions and rules.
VP = Vanishing Point - the point at which parallel horizontal lines seem to meet in the distance.
HL = Horizon Line – is where the Vanishing Points for parallel horizontal lines all fall.
EL = Eye Level – we use this term because you can’t always see the HL because things like buildings and mountains obstruct your view. Think of EL as a horizontal plane passing through the eye of the observer parallel to the earth. There can only be one eye level, in a realistic picture.
EL = HL = Linear Perspective
Everything is made relative to that eye level. Every time you change eye level (standing, sitting, on stairs, in a tree), you change what you are seeing.
Receding lines that are above eye level, slant down to a VP on the EL. Receding lines below eye level, slant up to a VP.
One Point – Rectangular objects having one face parallel to the picture plane have a single VP.
Two Point – Rectangular objects with no face parallel to the picture plane have two VP’s.
Three Point – In addition to VP’s on the EL, there is a third VP above or below the eye level.
Each object, has its own VP on the EL.

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 01:15 AM
See now wasn’t that harmless.
Anybody ready to run out the door at this point? Just a minute please.
Close your eyes and take a deep breath. You have existed in this visual world with perspective guiding you, your whole life. Stairs, fences, arches, roads, you can understand where they lead. You can understand this well enough to now be able to draw the same on a two dimensional surface.

In this lesson, we are going to take one, two, and three point perspective and use them in a drawing. First you will do a clear working line drawing, showing complicated areas worked out to the VP’s.
You will then copy this line drawing to a better quality paper, and add details, shading, and personality to your finished piece.
I personally think 8.5 x 11 is too small for a drawing, so I suggest that you work on at least 11x14

Please be aware that you will most likely use quite a bit of tracing paper, so I would suggest that you pick up a pad, if you don't own any. At times the drawing can become so complicated with lines, that you need to redraw the actual image again, eliminating some of the construction lines. Not a lot of erasing goes into a construction drawing. You simply correct, and redraw.

Also, if you do not have a plastic triangle, and straight edge (T-square, or parallel rule), I would suggest investing in them. It really is important to have these to make precise drawings.
You may use any type of pencil you are comfortable with. Keep it sharp, so that your line drawing is clear.
We will not be adding color in this class. However, if when you are done with the three assignments we have planned, of course you can reuse your line drawing and do a color rendition and post this to the thread for everyone to see.

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 01:22 AM
Week One we will develop a drawing using one point perspective.
Many of you have expressed a desire to do a particular type of drawing. This could be a building outdoors, an interior view such as your kitchen from one end to the other, or a favorite spot in your house. This could be a fantasy environment, or something from history. It could be as simple as a fence, or archway. You will be the illustrator of this scene. The only requirement is that it be in one point perspective.
Here is an example of one point perspective. This happens to be painted in gouache.


If your perspective skills are still a bit shaky, we can do a very simple view. I would suggest that you tape a piece of tracing paper to a window in your home that faces out. Draw what you see. Then when you are done, take the paper down, and clean up the lines, with the information that you know, using one point perspective.

I encourage you to challenge yourself. Set up a problem that you have and learn from this. This is not the place to show off what you can do. Really give this some thought. I know what it is like to post work that is not up to your standards, but in the end you are the loser, because you need to move out of your comfort zone to grow as an artist. I bet some of you will even set up situations that will challenge me. Go for it because, I can use the practice.

I would like you all to please take the time to consider composition. I realize that is not the main point of this class, but with any drawing at the intermediate level, it needs to be a consideration. I would suggest doing some thumbnail sketches and if you want to post those for suggestions on composition that would be fine before you start your line work. The perspective is the most important lesson right now, so the quicker we start drawing the sooner we all can learn from each others problems.

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 01:25 AM
Field Trips:

Helpful websites:



This is a good site with some interesting perspective drawings. I am not promoting the site for sales reasons. I just came across it and was interested in the drawing.


Bad Perspective:


Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 01:29 AM
Week Two - This will be a Two Point perspective drawing. Consider again, a scene you are interested in drawing. This could be a still life, a product design, a Roman ruin, a CA wild western street, or the exterior of your home. Again this is open to your interests. If you are reading a good book, maybe illustrate a scene in the book, or draw us a view in your home. As we go along with these drawings, we may need to discuss measurements in perspective. Rather than confuse you before hand, I would like to see where you are having difficulty. You may add ellipses into your drawing at any point. Just make sure there is evidence of two point perspective.

Week Three – We will do a third drawing using Three Point perspective. Once again, subject matter will be your personal choice. Some suggestions as viewed by, a pedestrian in the middle of the city with high rise buildings above, from a birds position on a telephone wire, from a mouse or ant hole, or from the top of a mast on a boat. Again a book or a movie, might inspire you to create a imaginary scene. Be creative.

You will post as you go, and when you are struggling, post and I will be able to guide you and give you the rules that apply to your particular situation.
I only ask that you not enlarge photographs. This would defeat the purpose of learning perspective. I don’t have a problem with taking the photograph and drawing what you see. Now understand the photo is a bit distorted. You should be able to train your eye, so that visually you will eventually be able to see where your work is not correctly drawn. I am hopeful that one day, you will be able to sketch without the use of any tools and be able to correctly draw in perspective. It is a gift to your self to learn perspective, and learn it well.


Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 01:49 AM
Note: You might consider doing the same subject, using three different points of perspective. This might make for a really nice series of drawings. Your drawings could be the value studies for paintings later. Or a series of similar objects, or similar places. Themes always have a nice presence on a website.

The most important aspect of this, and one of the main reasons that I agreed to do this, is that I hope that you all have fun with this lesson. If there is a fear that prevents you from drawing subjects, I want you to have the support to get over that fear. It is quite a handicap to have such wonderful ideas in your head and not to be able to draw them because you are afraid of making lines on a paper.

Here are more links that I find express great perspective. I also would like to suggest that if you come across unusual perspective or “bad” perspective that you share your findings with the group. It helps us all learn.





Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 01:51 AM
My lesson is now posted.
If there are typo's I apologize. I took every effort to reread and correct.
Please enjoy the process.

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 01:54 AM
Today's Quote:
And the day came when the risk it took to stay tight inside the bud was more painful than than the risk it took to blossom.

03-27-2006, 02:26 AM
Morning Miss! I'd like to blossom!:) I shall get started as soon as I've walked the dog!:wave:

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 02:30 AM
Yippee I like the early risers. No tardy marks for you.
Though I am going to bed with the cat in a little bit.

03-27-2006, 02:42 AM

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 02:55 AM
hopefully that was just a snore, Les

03-27-2006, 05:53 AM
Thanks Robin...lots to think about there!

Would this be OK for a 1-point perspective drawing?


Mary Woodul
03-27-2006, 07:31 AM
Robin, this is impressive!!! I will come back and read right after my house cleaning and will hope to start today. Thank you for your time and gernerosity, sharing this with us.

Anita Murphy
03-27-2006, 07:58 AM
WOW Robin - Great lesson!!!! Need a cup of tea then am coming back to reread and inwardly digest! :D

03-27-2006, 08:25 AM
I will have to keep this on my list

03-27-2006, 08:32 AM
This one was a holiday snap...will it do?

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 09:01 AM
Dave - That is a perfect choice. I would do it on the large size so that you have room to work.

Good morning Anita and Mary!!! I am off to the ice rink in a few minutes, so hold the rumble down until I get back.

03-27-2006, 09:14 AM
I'm in but I have not chosen my piece yet. Oh, and I am taking the night class!!!!

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 09:23 AM
Dee - I didn't realize this went to page two. I haven't had any coffee yet.
I think this would be a wonderful picture to do. You might carry the picture even larger on top. a long and narrow composition. It might be difficult to get in some of the little detail. You could widen the perspective some if you want to work on the arches and door frames some. Remember it doesn't have to be the exact viewpoint of the camera. You, as the artist, can change the eyelevel or the angle at which you are looking down the lane.

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 09:25 AM
Sounds good to me JayD.

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 09:43 AM
Jlyn - I hope you return. I use to live in the SF bay area too. A view down from Pacific Hts. or California St. would be great.

03-27-2006, 10:15 AM
Hi Robin, Thank you for teaching this class, I look forward to it. This will be my first online class. It should be interesting. I found this image in the WC ref library. Will this do?


Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 10:35 AM
Randy - This will work if you keep it a true one point. It borders on a two point. If you swing your view as if you are standing in the street, looking down the street you will be okay. Are you able to visualize that?

03-27-2006, 10:47 AM
I see what you mean. I don't want to make this harder on myself than I need to. Is this better?


03-27-2006, 10:57 AM
Robin...I found some 18" x 24" Stonehenge vellum...so would it be too much of a cheat to crop my ref to 9x12?
Which could look like this.

03-27-2006, 10:59 AM
Whew.. I'm kind of excited about this, and nervous too. :lol: I have tons of laundry to fold thanks to my oldest child, so I have to get that done, and will be back with (hopefully) a photo that doesn't scare the daylights out of me, and maybe some lines. :D

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 11:09 AM
Perfect Randy. You will be able to work on the multiple windows. That alone will be a good lesson for you and others.

Dee - I think that will be a great picture. Leave the people out of it at first. If you want to put them in at a later time we can learn how to measure height in perspective. It will be your decision as to how much detail you put in. Sometimes people do their drawings larger for the construction phase, so that it is easier to draw the detail, and then reduce the final to put onto a nice paper. What ever you feel comfortable with.
You have arches, and multiple windows.
Do you see how the far end turns a corner. This now puts that area into a two point perspective. It is far enough away that it won't be a problem for your learning one point. It is just a good example how when a road jogs, we now force the viewer to then see the buildings situated at an angle to the picture plane.

03-27-2006, 11:11 AM
I was trying to find something that might work. Is this something I could use, if I leave out the tall building on the right?

I got this from the RIL>

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 11:23 AM
How comfortable are you Midge in stepping over about 3 ft to the left and drawing the same subject. In this shot you lose the ribs of the guardrail, and that is what I think is the main lesson with this picture. I do like the drama of this shot though. I'm on the fence on this one. I see on the opposite side you have some multiples to work from and three on this side. You have the air vents, and the multiple sections on the ground. I think as is will also give you enough to learn. Your call. If you want to learn a different view point I can help you. As fast as you are you could both.

03-27-2006, 11:36 AM
Hi Robin (well done intro) & class

I know this class is on linear persp. and this link is on spherical and cylindrical pesp. but maybe someone will find it interesting.
I've got these 4 pict.s which one do you like. Colloseum may be to difficult for me but maybe the gate or the bridge of sighs ??:confused:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Mar-2006/71908-gate1.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Mar-2006/71908-castl.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Mar-2006/71908-collos.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Mar-2006/71908-sighs.jpg

Anita Murphy
03-27-2006, 11:43 AM
Karsten - I like Venice - would be wonderful to do!

03-27-2006, 11:45 AM
Robin...I have some equipment that might help me...a triangular ruler that seems to multiply up...and a ruler that does angles if you lay it on the ref! Is it OK to use them...I can use the angles, but not the other!:o

03-27-2006, 11:46 AM
Okay, here is another one.


03-27-2006, 11:49 AM
Ok.. I think this is the one I am going to do, but I am still not entirely sold on it. I don't like the cars, but I unfortunately don't have a photo of this street without them, so I'm trying to decide if I want to veer away from the city scene to something else, or give this a go.


Anita Murphy
03-27-2006, 11:55 AM
Midge - I think that one is better - will wait to see what teach says though!

Myra - you can use your artistic license to delete the cars!

03-27-2006, 11:59 AM
Anita... I had planned on doing that, I'm honestly just not sure I'm ready to. :lol: So.. It's time to do some rough sketches, and see if it feels alright. :)

03-27-2006, 12:03 PM
I've noticed that in my picture the verticals aren't actually vertical. It's an old building, so they might be a bit off true, but not as much as it looks in the photo. Is that some sort of distortion caused by the camera?

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 12:22 PM
These are some great subjects that tend to stop us dead in our tracks.
Myra you are definitely qualified to delete the cars. We will show you how. It isn't a problem at all. Easy in fact. You have some great shadows to work with. Sometimes the problems with one point is that the vertical lines start stacking up on one another. For a readable picture we as the artist must decide what is necessary and what can be eliminated. The brain can add what is not there in one area if we offer suggestions of it some where else.

Dave - DISTORTION You are now dealing with a bit of 3 pt, but we are not going there right now. Since you are not tracing your picture, you can make the corrections needed in this instance. Make all verticals VERTICAL. All horizontals to the picture plane will be horizontal and perpendicular to the verticals (90 degree angles)... ok there is your math for the day. All horizontal edges that receed, or go away from the viewer are following a construction line to the Vanishing Point.

03-27-2006, 12:42 PM
Hey Robin!:wave:
Fantastic Class already!:thumbsup: :clap: (three pages!-may be a record here for this amount of time!:eek: )
Looking for a ref-and BTW-You will be held to the Painless part!:evil: :wink2: :D

Don't forget to rate this thread for Robin everyone!

03-27-2006, 12:52 PM
Oh heck! I'm running into problems already and I haven't started yet! I tried to get the VP in PS...but seem to have two! what have I done wrong?


Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 12:57 PM
I think I have a high tolerance for pain Judi. My instructors (years ago) use to tell me to have a glass of wine before I started my work. Good thing I didn't take them up on it or I would have a drinking problem. Coffee is my drug of choice.
You know that buildings take up more page size than flowers, faces, and fruit.

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 01:03 PM
Your not following the lines on the right side Dee.

Now here is a suggestion everyone, I almost hesitated suggesting that you not use photos for this reason. You can not get hung up on the Photographers view. Maybe his view isn't the best for composition. Maybe you want to see more of the opposite side of the street.
Start on you tissue paper drawing a horizotal line that will be your Eye Level (or horizon line) draw two construction lines that will be the main plane for one side of the street and two for the other side. That's it you should now have five lines on your paper. Then you work with your verticals. Find the buildings that will be the clearest and with the highest detail. Draw those in.
Great start!

03-27-2006, 01:35 PM
Ok.. before I go any further with this.. I laid in the perspective lines... or at least the obvious ones to me.. and I just want opinions on whether they're right or not, because I'm really not positive.


Also.. I found it funny, I took this photo last summer, and I'm kicking myself now.. because looking at it with what I've learned about perspective, I wish I had of gotten it at a better angle, instead of just what was cool. As a photographer, this perspective stuff is going to make a huge difference for me. hehe.

03-27-2006, 01:43 PM
Here is my first attempt. I haven't done alot of detail yet, but wanted to lay in the basic lines. Should I add the cars?

I haven't laid it onto good paper yet, because I wanted to know if this is correct. I noticed that there are a lot of brick in this one. Perhaps I should have stuck with the other one. LOL. Even the lamp posts peak out from behind each other. Perhaps a roller coaster would be better. Anyone know where I can get a good picture of one?

03-27-2006, 01:46 PM
OK Robin...I think I understand...I've put in the lines that approximate where the building lines are. I had roughly gridded...just ignore that because it doesn't matter any more! My 5 lines are in?

03-27-2006, 01:53 PM
Just choosing an image has me going in circles. I want something that is simple enough to draw but challenging enough that I will learn something. This is from the reference library. Does it look like a good image for this project?

Fireman's kid
03-27-2006, 01:58 PM
Wow! Over 40 posts already and onto page 2. This looks like another popular class. :)

Robin, your write up was great!! Haven't followed the links yet because I was too interested to see what kind of subjects everyone was choosing. I see Midge and Dee are leading the pack again. :thumbsup:

Well, I have some ideas for what I want to do, but I have to go locate the pictures. There is one picture I definitely want to do and use as a study for a watercolor painting. I have to find that one and decide what week it fits in. It is a challenging picture but would be so cool if I could pull it off. What a minute....what's this I feel? Excitement over working on perspective?!? :eek: Oh Robin you are a sly one! How did you do this to me? :lol:

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 02:18 PM
I am not keeping up yet.
Okay back to the beginning (on this page) Please if I ever skip you it isn't out of choice. I really get flippin like a fish out of water here.

Karsten - I like 1,2,4 ( #3 when you feel more confident)
In the first one I would leave off the gate until the very end. Make sure the other lines are spot on.
In the second one it does have simple problems but if that is what you are looking for it will be a strong picture, especially with the shadows.
In the last on, you most definitely feel the one point perspective. It is an exaggerated view and what we have become accustom to know for one point.

03-27-2006, 02:31 PM
I've hunted around and found a reference or two that may be suitable for the one point perspective. Suggestions?



Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 02:31 PM
Dee - those tools are fine. The architects scale possibly will come in handy in the event you will have to measure a height line. I have never used the other one. I use to use an adjustable angle but I find a really good 90 degree angle works the best for accurate vertical.

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 02:37 PM
Myra - that is right, but do it on your paper now. Those are the construction lines for the horizontal planes that move away from the viewer.

You can construct the same view on paper, with the perspective that you visualize. There is nothing "wrong" with this one. But you have the option to make the street wider if you want you have the option to make a short/wide view if you want. We need to get away from the photographers eye and view this from an artist standpoint. What do you want to share with the viewer? What kind of atmosphere do you want to give? We can manipulate this many ways. Again, this view is perfectly fine.

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 02:40 PM
Midge - I see too many VP's on this. Are you tracing the photo? Of course many people get excellent results this way, but to learn perspective we need to start with construction lines and "map" out our drawing. I need to see where you have constructed a window, or a door or measured the height of something.

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 02:42 PM
Yes Dee! That is how you begin. Perfect.
Now some vertical lines for one building. It is helpful to know sizes of common features, such as the height of doors and and we can judge the sizes of other object from that. Let us be very basic at this point.

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 02:44 PM
Connie - That is a great shot for you to do. I would just extend the door on the left side, and perhaps some more of the gate on the right. You have a few elements to learn from here.

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 02:46 PM
Stacy - I am so excited that you are excited. It can be fun. Especially when you have several snapshots and none of them are really great, you can create that one great view. Or if you have dreams of that perfect kitchen, you can sketch it in perspective so others can understand what you are talking about....(then you get what you want).

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 02:49 PM
Jeanette, I like the first one the best. However if you are jumping in slowly, the second one works too. It has some basic one point measurement problems to work on. Maybe two in one week. You work quickly if I remember right. Even if you just get the line drawing done, the finished work can be done later. We are mostly concerned with learning the process, not the finished art.

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 02:53 PM
Did I get everyone? Boy you all work fast!

03-27-2006, 03:06 PM
Oh No! You want that drawing? I have so many scribbles you won't be able to tell what goes where. I will post it though. Give me a few minutes I have to uncrunch it.

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 03:24 PM
I am pretty good at the detective work that goes on with perspective.
It really is the only way I can be of help. We want you to be able to look out your window and sketch what you see using one point perspective. Copying photographs is okay in some situations, but to use it in place of perspective is jumping the gun. We need to know why that shadow falls a certain way.

03-27-2006, 03:24 PM
Point zero is where the lamp post and street join. The windows are all vertical and the door areas, the other lines show me where to curve the sidewalk areas and the other parts of the windows. Sorry for the crunches and the torn part. I throw out the ughlies and only keep the good.

I hope this helps. If not, I can start over and do a different photograph. I have a couple that I was looking at. Let me know, I'll will obey.

03-27-2006, 03:35 PM
Here is another photo. Is it any better?

Perspective has always been my downfall. I know that it is going away ---- but is this two point or what?

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 03:46 PM
Do you mind if we keep going with the original one. I think I can teach you the most with it.
I just want you to take a fresh piece of tracing paper and find the one point that all of the lines converge to. They can not be close or almost, they must fall on that point. The top of the building the bottom of the building. The sides of the main buildings. Then the top of the doorways and the window frames. Stop with that and post it. Also if you can tape another sheet of paper to the edge of the current piece that you are working on, that will help so that you have an accurate point to make you construction lines to.

03-27-2006, 03:50 PM
I'll do that and get back with you. Thanks for the encouragement.

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 04:00 PM
I appreciate you letting me help you, Midge.

03-27-2006, 04:02 PM
that is right, but do it on your paper now.

Aaarrrgh!! I knew there was going to be a catch! :D :p :wink2:

03-27-2006, 04:20 PM
Okay, this is the way I understand it:

The top and bottom horizontal lines are the top and bottom of the building. The outside lines are the sides of the main buildings and the others are sides of offices (?). The other horizontal lines are the top of the doorways and windows. Is this what you wanted?

03-27-2006, 04:26 PM
Bet you can't guess who's putting off the inevitable and how!:evil:
I thought it would help...:wink2:

03-27-2006, 04:38 PM
Deirdre, I love your people, but where is the building? (Tee-hee). My building was demolished. (LOL). It's much easier to draw when you don't care if it is correct, don't you know. But I want to get this right, so perhaps I just might learn something here..... I sure hope this old head is not too old (giggle). Its a good thing I am sitting in the back of the class, or the teacher might hear me.

03-27-2006, 05:02 PM
Midge...my building is coming...it has doors:smug: ...and people:smug: to go through them...what more do you want?:evil: :p

Anita Murphy
03-27-2006, 05:12 PM
my building is coming...it has doors ...and people to go through them

Still can't figure out what I am going to do.

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 06:24 PM
Midge, that is right. Now the next area to do is framing out the individual doors and windows. Show moulding etc. , Then brickwork, or stonework, and onward to detail.

Dee... The rendering of the people comes last (cars too)
You need to do the framework of the drawing before you can put up window boxes. Those people might be walking into the house of horrors. One step at a time.

Anita - make something up... you have been so many places, walked through so many doors, I am sure you could come up with the next travel destination.
I still say you have a great resource right outside your door. Or your kitchen.
Here's my kitchen -

Anita Murphy
03-27-2006, 06:26 PM
I want your kitchen!!! I am working on it - just want something different - have a plan!

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 06:33 PM
Last year at this time I was smashing down walls in this kitchen. I put up that drywall thank you very much, and look it still isn't done....
Because I am spending all my time on WC!!! ... oh what the heck, I'm getting it done, just slower than expected... cheaper too.

03-27-2006, 06:37 PM
I'll trade you a kitchen and a bedroom for your kitchen. Looks good Robin. I have a tiny itty bitty kitchen in a tiny itty bitty apartment. THe owners will not allow me to fix it up the way I want. OH well, then I wouldn't have time to draw.......Thanks for the input and I'll be getting back to you later.

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 07:33 PM
Even in an itty bitty kitchen, you can set up a still life in one point, and have counter top, and cabinet lines. Doesn't have to look like the latest shiny brochure. Some of the small spaces have a homey quality that can look far better in a drawing than a brand new slick space.
I think some of you are looking right past your own noses. You could even set up a series of food items and take a shot in a one point perspective view. By setting the camera on the counter. It will mimic a city street. Take some items you have around the house. Think creatively folks. Use your childrens toys.

Here are some photos that I took last week at my son's school. Anything I upload is up for grabs. If you have some good ones to share, I think thumbnails are fine. If you have a lot, put them in the Reference Library

03-27-2006, 07:43 PM
Hi Robin:wave:
Question-and excuse me if you have already addressed this-If we find a ref we like-and it is a tad off-is it OK to adjust it accordingly so it is a one point with the ref straight on in the drawing and make a few degee adjustments to the lines going to the vp?

Edit: I guess that was s silly question as it can be a fantasy drawing as you said before-so we can 'correct' it-Duh! long day:o

03-27-2006, 07:51 PM

Bravo.....Excellent Job on explaining the P Word. You cleared up a few things that I had always questioned. You also stated something that is very real in my art right now. Fear. I get terrified to the point that I dont draw or I stop drawing in fear of screwing up. And I have so many images in my mind I cant get out.

SOOOOO. I am going to do my image from my fuzzy little brain. It will be of a westeren street I think.

I am also in the night class. I function better at night, because my house gets quiet and I am part vampire.

Ill Post something soon.

Mary Woodul
03-27-2006, 08:37 PM
So many great references and Robin this is getting exciting. I'm going to go set something up in the kitchen. I only have bananas right now.:(

Anita Murphy
03-27-2006, 08:47 PM
Robin a question! If you were setting up a still life for perspective how would you go about doing it?

Fireman's kid
03-27-2006, 08:49 PM
Robin, nice kitchen you have there! And the other references are good too, but I'm not sure I'm up for the challenge. :) So I found this one in my files and thought it could work. What do you think? I may remove that square sign in the middle and extend the flags back some.

The other pictures I would like to do are these...
but because we see the sides of the chairs, I thought they might work better for the 2 point perspective week. Or maybe they aren't a good reference at all. I tell you, I'd love to do a painting from one of these references, but all those chairs scare me! :eek: :lol:

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 09:05 PM
A few more really quick ones, I shot these in about 15 min without much thought. Now it took me a little longer to resize cuz I am really lame at my digital camera, and photoshop. But you should see what I have learned in the last 6 mos., since I started here at WC. I am not as smart as my 17 yr old but at least I can talk the same language. :cool:
You all can put together something that is personal to you.

03-27-2006, 09:08 PM
Robin...your class is going to get me in trouble! I have been so engrossed in trying to get it right I didn't notice it was 3 am...
Any tips for the balconey....s?

Anita Murphy
03-27-2006, 09:10 PM
I want to come and live with you Robin, your house is lovely!!! And I love Pasta!!! :D

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 09:14 PM
Stacy the first one is great for this week. I would hold off on the sign in front until you are done, and see if you want it in. Do you know what the building on the left side looks like? I think a little more of that building would be nice.
The other two are 2 PT perspective. The middle one is a good shot and it will be a challenge. The second one is also workable. Have you taken any time to maybe see if you can crop/ enlarge a portion of it to a more workable size. The chairs are very small, but then again I have to remember that I am looking at it on a laptop screen, and maybe when drawn up they will be easy enough to figure out.

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 09:31 PM
I was just going to post to you and you bumped me. Set one edge of your object/s perpendicular to you When you see the pasta shot does it help you to understand?
You just tell your husband that you are going to CA for a while to enjoy our springtime. It is suppose to rain the next couple of days. Then we could plant flowers together. The house was just painted so now it needs flowers.

Dee - that is looking good, double check two things the doorways on the left side need a horizontal plane. At the top of the vertical dark area where it angles you would make another horizontal line and the underside would most likely be darker. On the walkway, make sure your sketching lines are going in the direction of the horizontal plane. Otherwise it makes your path look like it is rising on the right side. I know you are anxious to shade it in, but hold off for now just in case you need to correct a line or shape.
I need to go search for the reference to give you info on the balcony.
Please don't make yourself sick. It is only the first day. If you do it all at once you will have to stand around and twiddle your thumbs.

Fireman's kid
03-27-2006, 09:34 PM
Okay Robin...you can give your kitchen to someone else if I can have your porch. :D :angel: It's beautiful!

Thanks for your feedback on my references. I can get my dad or sister to take another picture of the building on the left for me. This picture is from my home town of Pitman and my parents and sister still live there.

The second two pics I can blow up to see detail. They are also from my hometown. I took this the night before the 4th of July parade. It's a small town so the parade is a big event. :lol: The whole street looks like this with chairs lined up saving spots. I want to capture the effect of all those chairs. But maybe for the sake of learning I'll start with the middle one and work up to the other one.

Thanks again Robin! :thumbsup:

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 09:45 PM
Dee - for the balconies and windows, think of them like rectangular cubes. You will find the lowest part against the wall of the building and work from there. I didn't see multiples ( If I am wrong I will go back again) so I don't see that you need to have the rule yet for equal parts.

*** Please every body if you have specific questions that I need the reference for just post them side by side in a thumbnail, that way I can figure out the problem a lot easier.

Anita Murphy
03-27-2006, 09:45 PM
Robin - yes - its clear now! :D Would happily plant flowers for you!

03-27-2006, 09:45 PM
This photograph is going to give me hives. I reworked it, and tried to do as you suggested, but now I am going so slow that I keep finding mistakes. For example, the lamp post is not straight, then as I look at the photograph I see that it is really a meter and several lamps. HELP! I am starting in the middle and working my way out. Is there a better way to do this, or do you mind that it will take me all week just to get the itty bitty tiny parts done, then the bricks UGH - I have never drawn bricks from this angle before. I have redone them several times and they are still wrong.


Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 09:59 PM
Midge, you have drawn the lamp post from the photograph. It is just another vertical and should be drawn as such. Are your other verticals exactly 90 degrees to the bottom edge of your paper?
This really isn't slow. I would do the complete working drawing before I ever put down any shading what so ever. that way if there is something that pops up that is incorrect I can throw another tracing paper over it and make the corrections. I would continue to figure out every detail before I ever transfer it to my final paper. All the corrections are made on the tracing paper.

03-27-2006, 10:02 PM
LOL - I never did do things the easy way. I have so much to do yet. It took me two weeks to draw a glass of water with ice cubes in it. This is why I don't do a lot of still life - The more I work on something, the more I see that needs to be done. I am never satisfied with my work.

03-27-2006, 10:13 PM
Bad news. I sprained the thumb on my drawing hand. I was throwing a ball behind my back and I caught it on my hip. Ouch! It hurts to hold a pencil right now. What is the time limit for phase one? It might be a couple of days before I can draw.

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 10:22 PM
...and are we trying to show off ball trick to someone?
no time limit... you rest that hand. Use the other hand and find us some good field trips.

03-27-2006, 10:29 PM
Robin, I am a bit under the weather and apparently have slept through the evening. Not feeling much better but I am using the time to find the photo I wish to work from. I am still here though.

03-27-2006, 10:32 PM
Here's a picture I took last year on a trip to Wisconsin that seemed to have some challenging bits. Will this do? I already corrected the verticals for the wide angle lens to make it a little easier on myself. There wasn't much on the right as I was shooting out the windshield of the car.


Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 10:48 PM
This is actually a two point karen. See how you are looking at the corner of the biggest building. So the left hand horizontals are going off to the left VP.
Now you can turn this into a one pt. if you can use your imagination some. You would step into the street and then you will make up the right hand side. Your VP will be at the end of the street. You can just make some buildings up for the opposite side of the street. I doesn't have to be really detailed. You have some great arches in the one building. It is your call if you feel comfortable with this. I can walk you through it.

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 10:51 PM
JayD - you take care of yourself. Didn't you just get over something? You need to crawl into bed with a good book. Didn't you mention that you have a big meeting on Wednesday. Rest please. We can do a make up class when you feel better.

03-27-2006, 10:58 PM
This is actually a two point karen. See how you are looking at the corner of the biggest building. So the left hand horizontals are going off to the left VP.

Yeah, right you are.
I have a few San Francisco ones like this one, but the hill goes up and down in the distance and I didn't know if that would be a problem. What do you think?

Robin Neudorfer
03-27-2006, 11:12 PM
I didn't say WELCOME! I was concerned about JayD, and I didn't realize it was THAT Karen. How are you my friend. ( hey everybody this is one of my sketchcrawl buddies).

I think this is perfect.
The area of your concern is far enough in the distance that I doubt you will have much detail at that point. Your largest area of information and construction will be in the main section of buildings. Remember don't trace the picture but construct it from what you know about one point. Eliminate the extra detail for now. All verticals will be at a right angle to the horizon line (or the bottom of your paper). Figure out where your HL is and all construction lines go to that point.

03-27-2006, 11:37 PM
...and are we trying to show off ball trick to someone?
no time limit... you rest that hand. Use the other hand and find us some good field trips.

Yes, my son. He wasn't too impressed when I was withering in pain. Hopefully I'll be up and drawing son. Meanwhile I while I'll be content with seeing how others are progressing.

03-27-2006, 11:56 PM
CAn I swop the sleeping bag for the chair on your porch?
Been a busy day so many ordinary boring life thingys to do, did take my camera out with me, took some shots and promptly forgot in the hustle to stop where I particulary want to shoot, tink it will be an acceptable one, so another trip out tomorrow special then to work, that is if that chair is not to comfortable. Talking of coffee?
Agitated Les

Robin Neudorfer
03-28-2006, 12:10 AM
Let me tell you Les, that chair is really comfortable. Many a warm afternoon I have taken the mail out and poof I'm out.
I always seem to forget the camera. Then I see something really beautiful, and can't remember where I saw it, so that I can go back again. Stickies sometimes help jog my memory.
Coffee is good... my night cup

03-28-2006, 01:48 AM
You're all so talented here- there are some great examples.

Perhaps you might find my Class on Perspective and Street Scenes (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259441)interesting/informative.

More examples in the Street Scenes Homework (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259467)thread.

We also have a section in the Watercolor Handbook on Perspective (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318242) with lots of links.

Paintings deleted by request


03-28-2006, 01:53 AM
I seem to do lots of street scenes :)

Come on now Doug...fess up! you just like drawing cars...and boats!:evil:

03-28-2006, 01:58 AM
:D :D :D

In fact cars are my problem - like people I see them every day, but it doesn't make them any easier to draw :roleyes:


03-28-2006, 02:30 AM
Hi Robin,
I am excited about taking the class, I think it will really help me move forward in my artwork. I was reading the post in our sketchcrawl group and noticed your post about the class, I missed the last sketchcrawl when it was moved to Saturday. Hope you don't mind! I was wondering if one of these pictures would work ok for the one point. I noticed that on one of them the top roof actually might make it a two point, is that correct? Desiree

03-28-2006, 07:53 AM
Desiree - What is the "Sketch Crawl Group"? I have never seen it - anywhere.

Anita Murphy
03-28-2006, 08:05 AM
Hi Karen and Desiree - Robin is always telling me about the sketch crawl group - I am so envious of you all!!! Hope you enjoy the class!

Hey Yorky - thanks for the link!

03-28-2006, 08:44 AM
Here is an update of my sketch:

I have begun to add the brick, and the tree. I was thinking of putting a car at the end of the street. The sidewalk is also brick, but am not sure if I will include that or not.

Fireman's kid
03-28-2006, 09:26 AM
Good morning everyone! (Well, at least it's morning for me. :D )

I see it has been busy here while I was sleeping and getting the girls off to school. I hope to get a start on my construction lines later today. Exercise and dishes must come first though...drat.

Hi Doug! Good to see you in these parts. :) Thanks for the watercolor links! I'll definitely be checking them out. I want my two point perspective drawing to be a study for a watercolor painting. If it turns out I'll share it with our friends over on the wet side.

Midge, check your brick lines in the upper right corner. They should have the same angle as the woodwork over the awning. I think a couple of them are off, unless it is a prouct of scanning or snapping a photo.

Okay, I'm off for a morning walk! :wave:

03-28-2006, 09:36 AM
Good morning Stacy. You are correct. I need to fix the bricks.

Anita Murphy
03-28-2006, 10:24 AM
Midge you've got a great start there.

I'm going to join in this today - got to go shopping this morning but hope to be here with the rest of you this afternoon (I'll bring snacks! :D)

03-28-2006, 10:38 AM
Midge, I found the best way with perspective is to locate the Vanishing point and then use a long ruler pivoted on the VP to establish the lines of the major features and even the brick courses.


03-28-2006, 11:18 AM
Desiree - What is the "Sketch Crawl Group"? I have never seen it - anywhere.
Hi Anita, Midge and all, the sketchcrawl group is a group of people that meet to go and draw together. I missed it due to a last minute day change and I couldn't change my schedule. It all started with a book by Danny Gregory,about sketching everyday and his blog (http://www.dannygregory.com/). He has a website and off of that site a Yahoo group site started called Everyday Matters (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/everydaymatters/)for all the readers to be challenged each week with a different drawing project, and off of that our Yahoo group started which is called Southern California Drawing group. (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scdrawingroom/). We all have blogs which we post our work and others comment. Its usually all good, noone would critic so its abit different than here, but everyone is so nice and all on a different spot in the journey of art. Its not about perfection, just drawing everyday. I love the freedom of it. Really, I shouldn't even explain it, Karen should, being the one that really runs it or oversees the whole thing. I am fairly new to that also. Well I will be back later,must take my daughter to therapy. I look forward to getting to know everyone. Desiree

03-28-2006, 11:20 AM
Hi Robin

Thank you for your lesson very interesting, nearly ran out the door but thought better of it:D. I hope you have loads of patience because I am absolutely hopeless with perspective, and to top it all off drawing buildings and street scenes are not my thing, so I am really :eek: going to be out of my comfort zone with this one.

Do we have to use buildings for this, I have some photos of a road disappearing in the bush, I think it is one point perspective, but can turn it into a more interesting thing by adding a farm house.

I have also added some other's that I think would do, please let me know.



http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Mar-2006/69011-bbroad.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Mar-2006/69011-bbushcamp.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Mar-2006/69011-grandcanyonfort.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Mar-2006/69011-loskopdam.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Mar-2006/69011-phelwana.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Mar-2006/69011-phelwana1.jpg

03-28-2006, 01:22 PM
Robin, I found one other picture I think I like the best for the project, does it matter that the bridge goes through the VP & EL? Desiree

Robin Neudorfer
03-28-2006, 01:40 PM
Good Morning from California. I am sitting at my favorite cafe (wi-fi connection) because my kitchen is being painted, and the fumes are not something I want to endure. I am going to work my way through the early morning posts. Thanks Anita for holding fort.

Hi Desiree - Now I recognize the name. Hope to meet you in person soon.
I think either would work but the first picture gives you more to work from, in terms of detail. The top of the building is angled but we will have you straighten it out, as distortion by the camera always exaggerates this.

Midge - I want to point out something. On your brick lines, here is where the ruler comes in. Along the line of the window you need to place little tic marks, at the point of your brick lines. Now I know you are able to approx. this because you are looking at a picture. Do you know how to figure out what size that would be if you didn't have a picture?
I know how, but does anyone in the class know how to figure this measurement out? Of course if you could say to yourself that you are going to throw a quick wash over the whole thing what does it matter. These little details make a difference to the overall picture. It shows that you took the time to pay attention to the details. Also at the top, the lines are not moving to the VP. I understand your working conditions, but I do want you to understand that this sort of thing matters. It is the difference of making the building stand up straight or have the feeling that it is leaning. Go back and double check all of your lines to your VP.

Mary - Anita is giving out chocolate to everyone that doesn't run out the door. I am glad that you are sticking this out. I have to say though that doing bushes and trees really doesn't answer the questions we have here. Let us start very basic. Do you have a room that you enjoy sitting in? Can you draw me a wall in front of you, with two walls coming off of it? Very basic. Are you willing to walk through this with me?
Anybody else that is thrown off by the pretty pictures, and finding themselves just copying, why not try this. You will be drawing from life. It won't be a picture that you are going to frame, but you will learn form it.

Robin Neudorfer
03-28-2006, 01:42 PM
The bridge is fine Desiree. It is horizontal to the picture plane and the underside in shadow goes off to the VP. Do you see that?

03-28-2006, 01:58 PM
Yes, I think I do see that, I guess now I just need to settle in on one picture and attempt to get my lines going. LOL I do see why you liked the first picture I posted too. Oh decisions, I got all excited when I took out these pictures from Italy that my mom took on her trip. Desiree

03-28-2006, 02:01 PM
I have a question....... are there are tricks or tips for figuring out perspective in a photograph that doesn't have an obvious vanishing point?

03-28-2006, 02:04 PM

I can start and do that, I have to say also that I have an interior decorating background and know exactly what you where talking about the walls. Maybe I should look at this from the point of an interior decorator having to make a design for a client (my lounge with a new entertainment centre :D ). I guess seeing all the other "complicated" scenes everybody was choosing made me think I would have to go along those lines as well but not that busy a bit easier :lol:. So I will start with my basic drawing and post it soon.



Robin Neudorfer
03-28-2006, 02:25 PM
Myra - Great question! what we want to figure out is perspective in general. We can use the photo for information, but let us learn perspective on it own. How about you visualize sitting on a park bench in the area you want to draw. you start with the horizon line. You the artist place that line where it will give you the most impact in your drawing. Do you really want to be chained to what the photographer is seeing. You will see this view differently if you were on the right side of the road, the left side of the road or smack dab in the middle of the road. That wouldn't be so good today as you might get hit. JK So you pick the VP, the place where you are looking. From that you draw the left side. First the top one MAIN building and the bottom of that same building. I use building as a noun to mean object on the left, it could be my pasta box) then you do the same for the right side. Some of you may only have objects on one side of your picture. That is okay.
Does that make sense? Your VP is there no matter what. It may be behind a building that is in its way at the end of the street but for construction purposes you must place the VP there for now. It won't show in your finished drawing.

03-28-2006, 02:31 PM
Well, I've made a start and will post my progress later this evening. But I was wondering if anyone had any tips on drawing arches in perspective? Or I suppose circles in general. I know they become ellipses, but I don't know how to get it the right shape.

03-28-2006, 02:31 PM
I've abandoned pretty pictures, at least temporarily to come to grips with this perspective monster. Here is a first attempt taken from the hallway of my office in real life.

I don't know if its correct or if I'm on the right path, but I'm sure you can help on it Robin.

Chocolate please Anita...:wave:


03-28-2006, 02:33 PM
Thanks Robin.... I've got a photo of a really nice shot of a violin, but it's a close up... so the perspective isn't real obvious to me. I guess I'll have to get my daughters out and use it instead. :)

Robin Neudorfer
03-28-2006, 02:40 PM
Perfect Mary - You already have a vision about interiors. Let us take it from the basics. If you know the shell you can add all of the details one at a time. The pretty pictures are fine but that isn't what this is about. It is learning how to contruct that same scene, without the picture. Sitting in this cafe I have a one point perspective that would make a lovely drawing.

Robin Neudorfer
03-28-2006, 03:15 PM
Jeanette - The subject is perfect and the drawing needs correction. New sheet of paper please. Save the old so you know the difference. I will try to walk you through it, if I can't I will scan a drawing. Set up your paper so that you have a horizontal line going from left to right. From that HL you will draw the floor, where the wall meets the floor and then the other side. Next you will draw the ceiling lines. In your picture I don't see that. The ceiling may be really high, but most likely not, and even if it is wouldn't you want to show that. So add in those lines. Now for the back far wall draw a hoizontal line top and bottom to show approximately where the wall is. Yes we could measure how far you are standing away from the wall and get this really precise. That is for a later class. For now give us a back wall. Now on that back wall is a door. to figure out the height of that door Your HL or eye level is going to go at approx, 5 ft. Your ceiling is approx 8 ft. and your door height is approx 6.5 ft. This is all approx in our lesson because your building may be different than mine. Some older buildings have different heights as do other countries. Oh sorry I am working in American Standard Measurement. I hope that doesn't bother anyone. Please convert for me. Didn't even think of that. I must focus on my perspective thoughts.

Take the back wall drawing height measurement
divide it into 8 equal parts. you can mark little tic marks on the side line.
At the 6.5 mark, this is where the top of your door should be.
The width is approx 2.5 (of those equal parts, wide. We aren't working in inches here or cm.on this back wall - You can take another piece of note paper and copy those little tic marks along the edge. That is your ruler for this back wall. Turn it side ways and mark off 2.5 for the top of your door. Then you draw two vertical lines from the top edges of your door, down to the floor.
You can lightly draw the top of that door to the side corners of the wall. From where that meets the side wall, match up that point to your VP.
make a line up the side walls. That is now the top of the doors on the side walls.
Show me this...I need to know if I am explaining this correctly.
We need a video cam...

Robin Neudorfer
03-28-2006, 03:17 PM
Myra - A violin would be great. A challenge, but if you think of it as a cubic rectangle to begin with it can be done. You are going to make me work for my membership here aren't you.

03-28-2006, 03:19 PM
Hi Robin

So here is my linedrawing ( it is very rough). It is of my entrance hall, I did the sketch first before I took the photo. Then I took the photo so we can use it as my ref. I eliminated some of the decor, because I just wanted to get the basic done. I had endless frustration with the two doos on the side walls, could not get that exactly right, any hints please.



http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Mar-2006/69011-entrance-hall.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Mar-2006/69011-entrancelinedrawing.jpg

I have just noticed on my line drawing that you can not see the wall on my right hand that I did not include that in the picture...will put that in the next photo I take.

Robin Neudorfer
03-28-2006, 03:38 PM
Mary - stop all detail or you will just get frustrated really quickly. Let us make sure that the shell and large shapes are correct first.
Two corrections - I personally would throw a tissue/tracing paper over this.
1. The top of your left wall is not following down to the VP, neither is the right side.
2. The left door and the right door : Start from the top of the front door. The top of that door follow with a light line to the side wall. From the point where those two lines meet , draw a line from the VP through that point and continue it off the edge of your paper on each side. That is the top of your door. So in actuality in your picture they will be taller than the front door and the top will be angled like the bottom. They are closer to you so they are bigger.
3. We need to work on the width of those two doors, but I think that will take my scanner and a drawing on my part. I need to leave for my class in 30 min. so I have to apologize I won't be getting back until 8:00 PST
This is a perfect shot to begin with. I appreciate the fact that you have put aside the pretty pictures for something where you can learn one or two basics.


03-28-2006, 03:40 PM
On your photograph, the horizontal eye level is approximately the top of the middle picture frame on the left. Everything above slopes down, everything below slopes up.


03-28-2006, 03:41 PM
Robin, If I didn't have the photograph, how would I know what size bricks to put in the picture? My stylis doesn't want to cooperate with me in drawing something that small. When I use the tic method, the lines don't go correctly. I have made it worse rather than better. HELP! I'll go make some hot cocoa while I wait for your answer.

03-28-2006, 03:45 PM
I'll try to do this while at work, during breaks. :)

RobinN, will this picture be okay to use? Found it in the image reference area.

Robin Neudorfer
03-28-2006, 03:50 PM
I just noticed two other things that confuse me. The two VP at the top of the page. Those should not be in the picture. Your ONE VP should be at eye level, which is smack dab in the middle of your front door. Let us get that back wall measurement correct. If the height is approx 8 ft. What is the width? it looks taller than it is wide. We could approx and I guess Iwill so I don't have to wait for your answer. And in real life we aren't going to go measure everything we have to train our eyes to approx. I am going to say it is about 6 ft wide. give or take a few inches. Along the back side wall line, mark 8 equal parts. Each one of those segments equals one foot in scale. mark those onto a piece of note paper. Swing that note paper with the tic marks on it down along the floor line. Mark off six of those segments. Now you have 6' in scale. That is the width of your wall. You can mark off inches in scale too on your new little ruler (thought these measurements are only for the back wall)
you can measure out the moulding, light switch door width etc. but only on the back wall with your new little scale.
I hope that makes sense.

Robin Neudorfer
03-28-2006, 04:01 PM
Good question Midge.
We know measurement of object by certain givens. We can in most situations go by door height, eye level height. We figure out where the person is standing and for our purposes we don't need to complicate the matter by having the person sitting or on stairs or on a hilly road. So with those givens we then start breaking the picture down into workable measure ments. We know the size of a brick (without going outside and measureing about 4"x8")
It is just a matter of showing on the side of the door frame tic marks that equal a foot, then from that 12" we can find out where 4" is. (approx 3 bricks will fit into a 12" space) If it is up close to the viewer, s/he will also see some morter lines. As they move away from us it becomes less clear. But for the integrity of a crisp drawing this is necessary to consider. Talking about bricks, it is also necessary to note how bricks are laid. Again a detail, but an important one. So you see these contstruction drawings are rather important.

Robin Neudorfer
03-28-2006, 04:04 PM
Morph - I am sorry but I am running off to my color class and I don't see a picture attached. I will check back in about 8:00pm PST, so ask away and I will do my best to answer. I will scan away tonight for those of you that are in need examples.
TTFN - hugs

03-28-2006, 04:21 PM
Hi Robin

You know I did not really draw this to scale, I did it with my eye and very rough. I also think I used my back wall (the one where my door is) as my starting cube instead of using my front cube (where the two wall end) as my starting cube, hence the fact that my vp where different.

I think what I am going to do is start over again, I don't want to sound stupid but I kinda struggle to make sense of your pointers about the side doors, mind you you did say you would have to draw a picture....:o oops.

Will get to is a bit later, kids are back from school so it is busy....busy with them.



03-28-2006, 04:43 PM
Here's what I've got so far. Sorry about the quality; I usually use a scanner, but this is too big to fit. Hope you can see something!


Anita Murphy
03-28-2006, 05:02 PM
It's taken me 45 minutes to read through all this. I now have a question. A general one, cos I am not doing a street.

If you have doors at intervals down your street - how wide do you know how to make them to be in proportion to the height????? :confused:

03-28-2006, 05:08 PM
Draw a diagonal from top right to bottom left of the nearest door. Whatever the height of the other doors, the diagonal on each door is parallel (at the same angle to the horizontal) to the one on the first door. That will make them proportionally all the same width.

Works for row houses, windows etc too.


Anita Murphy
03-28-2006, 05:28 PM
Thanks Doug - I was particularly thinking of Coronation Street-like terraced houses! Different question - How can you be called Yorky and live in Lancashire????? :p :D

03-28-2006, 05:30 PM
Ok, the thought of a chocolate inspires me, two would be better for i need more courage.
Been out with the camera, trying to remember what is needed for 1 point. Tinks I might have something. Broke them down to three. In all three so much detail, Yuck Where is that drawing pad?

03-28-2006, 05:32 PM
I came for the money :)

I am a Yorkshire reject - too generous!


03-28-2006, 05:45 PM
Robin, let me try that one more time.

03-28-2006, 05:45 PM
Is there a way to do this without it being so "technical"? These lines are killing me.. :lol: I've started over 10 times with 10 different tries at things from the view outside my window, to my kitchen, to the dreaded street photo I originally posted up... but I just can't do it. The lines all over the place throw me... and all I want to do is just sketch it out.. and then fix it. Can we do that? Or would that be considered cheating at this point?

03-28-2006, 05:53 PM
Do you think this is ready for good paper?


03-28-2006, 06:23 PM
I'll try again.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Mar-2006/5632-art_junction.jpg

I think this one worked - Is this photo okay?


03-28-2006, 06:37 PM
Ok teacher, several hours later and four coffee's. How is this selection?
also have tried to follow your instructions. This is on tracing paper to determine the angles, lines etc. I seem to have a vanishing point on the paper, goody gum drops. Been trying to work out my H/L would you say the red one is? Should have looked for that taking the photo.
You seem to be having all the fun, smelly kitchen and a color class the same day, oh well time for some chores then look at what I should do.

03-28-2006, 07:09 PM
Wow, this is really tedious and intricate work. This is why I am no draftsman! I think I am getting it slowly. Here is a cleaned up line drawing to check my lines. I am wondering if there is right way to get the proper angles for the bridge and hand rail going down the stairs. Also the pitched roof on the other side of the water was interesting to do. I know I could just draw it in but was wondering if there was a exact way? Desiree http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Mar-2006/79734-onepoint.jpg

03-28-2006, 07:24 PM
Just to show you I am a workin Robin.:) May not stick with this particular drawing-a few things are off-but I am learning a few things.


03-28-2006, 08:20 PM
Robin, thank you for the detailed explanation of how to do this. I only hope that some of it sank in. I can see now why I stick with people and animals to draw!:)

Here is a rework of this drawing in the hopes that I'm in the right direction on this.

I think I'm so used to just drawing, that technical aspects of art are foreign to me or at least meet with some measure of resistance.


03-28-2006, 08:23 PM
Good lord Judi!! After looking at yours I feel distinctly depressed. I don't think in my wildest dreams that I can come up with anything vaguely resembling something of this calibur. Wow.

Anita Murphy
03-28-2006, 08:26 PM
Jeanette - don't forget Judi is a perspective guru too!!!

03-28-2006, 08:38 PM
Yes, I know Anita. Pass over more chocolate please. I think that's what's going to get me through this class... :) That or Jack Daniels. lol

Fireman's kid
03-28-2006, 08:40 PM
Robin, I pity you trying to keep track of all of us! But so far you are doing a great job!! :clap: :clap: And already there are lots of great tips here. I never thought about approximating the height and widths of things and how to do that. I guess that's why this is an intermediate class. :D

Hope you had fun at your class! :)

Anita, I'll take some chocolate too if you are handing it out. :D YUM!!

03-28-2006, 08:42 PM
No guru. This took 2 hours and it is not totally correct. I am trying to take my mind back 30 years:( -but Robins links are extremely helpful:thumbsup: :thumbsup: .

Hey-I like Jack too please...but not with chocolate.

Anita Murphy
03-28-2006, 09:17 PM
OK I have the supplies - Chocolate, and Margaritas (In Mexico so we have to do the Tequila thing) :D

Anita Murphy
03-28-2006, 09:17 PM
I'll have to run out for Jack!

03-28-2006, 09:40 PM

03-28-2006, 09:44 PM
God, as I look at all this wonderful work--I am getting flashbacks of set design. Robin, I have the picture I want to do--just trying to locate it. Be back shortly.

03-28-2006, 10:35 PM
I am puzzeling away. Horizontals and perpendiculars.
Squaring up on the largest horizontal, and assuming it is, the perpendiculars are not. I am working away on the tracing paper to establish the lines, unless i use artistic license my set square lines (Uprights) for real will not realistically be right, or will they. On my photo I am looking at the shop fronts left squaring up to the canopy across the road, have tried same against the canopy horizontals and still out. perhaps it's time to fiddle it, or is there a rational explanation. Camera lense must distort some things.

03-28-2006, 10:54 PM
Les, that is true--cameras can really distort perspective. here is a photo I took of a house (some of you may remember this) for the weekly drawing thread. I posted it because it represented a perspective challenge:


It's a good example and well worth studying and it seems to me that Robin is saying that you should not let the picture control you--that you should grab the photo by its distorted horns and with your own knowlege of perpective make that photo your own.

03-29-2006, 12:11 AM
What a perspective nightmare that is! Drawing its one thing, building it must of been the real challenge. Some architect somewhere drew it up. Are you trying to scare us off here? Desiree:eek:

03-29-2006, 12:22 AM
I was surprised at how many people took the challenge and attacked it. I still have yet to draw this one.

OK, Robin and everone else--which one should I use. I took these pictures a few years back and used them for the Perspective Foundation class--I have been wanting to do one of these myself so any suggestions?

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 12:43 AM
Okay you guys I am home reading through this and am going to take the questions one by one until I am done.

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 02:02 AM
No Complaints please about being first in line

*edit: I think I did Mary's photo, but with Jeanettes drawing in mind. Jeanette can you follow what I wrote below and see if it makes sense to your drawing too. What I saw on your redraw is that you have the VP way above the ceiling line. The VP's stay right on the Horizon Line or in this case we also call it Eye Level. You are standing looking at this view, and where you are looking straight ahean is the Eye Level. Your dog has a much lower eye level and would view this room in a different way. Same thing if you were 7.5 ft tall, you would be seeing the tops of all of the doors, and the dust that accumulates up there.

Mary / Jeanette See if you can understand my drawings. Please try to figure out the door on the right side. Yes... you may ask questions about anything I have done or not done

1. I drew the HL
2. I drew the Left construction lines, Top of wall & Bottom of wall
3. I decided where I wanted the front door wall to be place in my picture.
4. I drew the left vertical line indicating my left side of the front door wall.
5. I measured the ht being 8 ft. so I figured out half of that line which would be four feet. I measured half again which would be 2 ft (and 6 ft) and so on.
6. I used the ruler I made and figured out the bottom of my wall. We had decide on 6 feet across, so I made 6 tic marks from my ruler
7. I measured with my ruler the width of the front door as 3 ft.
8. So now I have my front door using those measurements.


9. Using my floor measurements I run parallel lines to my VP
10 I put in vertical line for the far edge of the left side door. I am approx that this is about a foot away from the front door wall.
11. Now I can lay a horizontal line on the floor indicating a square foot.
12. A diagonal line that runs from corner to corner of that first squart foot, will bisect all of the contruction lines on the floor. Where they bisect a horizontal line is drawn to the left wall. and I have indicated the measurements with a tic mark. Now you have 6 feet indicated by tic marks on the side wall.
13. I can now figure out the measurement of my side door. Inside doors are usually smaller than front doors so I made this one 2.5 ft.
14 the top of the door is found by running a horizontal line from the front door to the corner and then strikeing a construction line to the VP. this will be the top of the door.

NOTE This takes time everyone, please be patient with me

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 02:14 AM
Jeanette- Just for the record, when I look at your drawing, your front door is centered, and the side doors are closer to the viewer. Are you able to make similar adjustments on your drawing. Measure the width of the front door wall, and then you will have your measurement on the wall and floor to work from.

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 02:22 AM
Dave It looks like it is coming out okay. It would help if your reference picture was with your drawing, and also upload with the thumbnails, cuz then I can pull the pics up side by side. Can you scan in half and half I think I can visually piece it together and see if you are constructing it ok. I think you need some help on the multiple windows. Not sure until I see your reference.

03-29-2006, 02:40 AM
jayD, thanks for imput, that photo is extreme. Differrent from my attempt, they all depend I assume from the position photo is taken. In your's much lower than level with house hence looking up and the closer the shot more extreme the angles.
In mine I believe i was flat and level, however the lense must fish eye the picture somewhat, especially near the camera where the scene seems to wrap around that spot a little.

So i am back to whether to use the set square from the given horizontal to get 90 degree perpendiculars. So much easier I can see to do that having set the angle construction lines accurate. Am I going in circles now, its a whisky needed less coffee.
Anita I will settle for a liquor chocy
Must attack my drawing tomorrow, am falling way behind and the grandchild is coming the weekend.

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 02:52 AM
If you have doors at intervals down your street - how wide do you know how to make them to be in proportion to the height????? :confused:


If I understand your question right Anita, I used an example of 15ft, and then 30 ft as like a row house. And then you are asking how to make them a certain size. Well you would have to know the measurement, by walking there and physically measureing it. Or you can estimate, buy using visual clues. Such as windows, and doors. If there are certain elements on the building that you can give a measurement to, then you can say well if that is 3 ft then this should be 8 ft, and if that is 8 ft the overall is approx 15 ft.
Sometimes our estimates are spot on, but othertime we have to adjust as we do our working drawing. That is why we use tissue/tracing paper. We make these adjustments as we go along. If we have precise measurements, from measureing with a tape measure or from an architects drawings we can certainly be more exact up front.

Now for our 30ft building I am just showing you how I can make a 15 ft wide building side by side. You could adjust that width after the fact if you want a 20 ft wide building etc. Going through the midpoint of each vertical you can find the placement of the next multiple. I just happen to use 15 ft multiples as well.
After looking over my drawing please ask questions.
It is midnight and I am not sure if I am being clear.

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 02:58 AM
Morph It looks okay hard to tell because I am not able to enlarge it. I think you made it too small ( could someone help here). I can tell there are really good shapes so once I can enlarge the photo I think we can work with it.
I may ask you to make the walk way a bit wider for the purposes of this class so we can address the repetitive shapes on the left side.

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 03:02 AM
Les Are you still awake? I've got some chocolate....
I think your photo is fine. The drawing needs a correction. the HL is running through the VP or rather the VP is alway on the HL. So all you need to do is move your HL up.
Now ... how are you figuring out your verticals along the glass wall, such as the doorway?

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 03:07 AM
Myra could you send me a link to the photo (RI) that you are talking about and I can help you. When you do an advanced reply you can go down to manage attachments and upload your mess of a drawing and the photo and we can talk about what is giving you trouble. I don't want you frustrated.

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 03:10 AM
Leirrem That photo works for me. Please try to contruct the drawing rather than copy it. The point is to learn why it is the way it is, on a flat surface.

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 03:24 AM
Desiree I see that you have drawn all of your horizontal lines to the VP. That is a good start. But I don't see where you have used contruction lines to figure out your arches on the left side, or the doors and windows. You can pull off a pretty picture by copying a pretty picture, but now a days we can do this by using photoshop find edges. This would make a really lovely drawing after you fix the left side of the bridge. The bottom of it wouldn't follow the VP of the buildings it would be forward into the canal a bit more so you need to strike a horizontal for the most frontal plane, and then at the corner where it turns to go under the bridge that would go back to the VP. These pictures are all great for everyone, and I am talking to everyone for you to understand what is a one point perspective. But I am not sure if we are understanding how to contruct it. So that when you go out one the sketch crawl you can take your pencil and properly lay in the scene with the HL and VP.
Do you have a space a home that you could draw for me. Bedroom, Kitchen, living room?
Stick with me here, we will have you understand the basics with a little patience.

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 03:33 AM
Judi Now that is a construction drawing! It is a good thing to review after time. We can make a drawing appear right but occasionally to construct it by drawing "through" brings out a different dimension. Good for you, Those arches are looking great.

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 03:40 AM
OMG I leave you guys alone for just a little while and the place gets turned into a chocolate bar. How come you didn't set any on my desk? It is 12:30 and I am drinking green tea. Thank you Les at least you thought of me.

Les I think I mentioned in a previous post that cameras can cause distortion big time. You have to go with what is true. That is if we are not drinking alcohol at the time. Did you take the picture before or after the Jack Daniels?

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 03:49 AM
Stacy You are always so kind. Thank you! Yes I did have fun at my class. It was very hard work. We had a good looking bald young man to stare at. My second portrait ever and it was in oil, with a palatte knife. Luckily we only had to find about 6 color notes for our work. When it dries I will put it on my blog.
I am glad that you are around to keep the others in line. Make sure they don't wake the kiddies.

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 03:54 AM
JayD 2,3,4 are my choices. 1,5 don't have much to work with. But with your schedule maybe that is about how much you want to handle. 3,4 would be very hard to figure, but it can be done. You are way above the normal eye level here. We can calculate it out though. I think 2 is a nice one, it gives you plenty to figure, and you could add a little more to the front porch if you want.
What do you think? You could also draw your office.

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 04:02 AM
Midge Can you tell me first what makes your view unique?
There are some areas that I don't understand like the awning. I am not sure how it is connected on our end. I think you need to make sure when you put it on good paper, that you transfer the lines very carefully so that they all go to the VP.

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 04:08 AM
Anita Boy I just reread your question Anita, and I didn't even come close on that one.I was thinking you asked something else. Lets see if I can post a better answer this time...
Look at the answer I gave Mary and Jeanette. Does that help? From the vertical measurement you can lay down a horizontal measurement, and construct the repetitive width.
No... that wasn't any better... sorry my brain is mush. I am having trouble with the technical jargon. I agree Myra... It is technical so that our world fits together neatly. It is technical, so that our boxes in our drawings don't get wider in the distance. It is technical so that our buildings sit on the ground. Escher is fine, but even he understood perspective.

03-29-2006, 07:46 AM
I have been thinking about my choices--believe it or not my favorite is number five because it ties with future stuff for me and number two is my least because it...well it just bothers me. That is yard work that I kind of need to get to.

If I understand you correctly--if I draw the others then I need to lower my eye leve..hmmmm...that is interesting. I think what I will do first is work up some sketches on tracing paper or something liek that and then let you know what I decide--should take a day or so. Do you have a technique for lowering the eye level or do I just eyeball it first?(pardon the pun)

If others have an opinion--PLEASE--OPINE!

03-29-2006, 09:08 AM
Jay - #5 has no real perspective lines in it.

Better to choose one with buildings. The horizontals will all meet at the VP.


Fireman's kid
03-29-2006, 10:18 AM
Robin, I am printing out your replies with the drawings you did so I can study them. They are so helpful!! I also think I am going to start by constructing a picture of an indoor hallway before moving on to my outside picture. So much to learn here!

03-29-2006, 10:31 AM
Robin, you have the patience of Job to deal with all of this! I wish my patience level was a quarter as high. I appreciate you taking time to go through the details on the basics for me again. It was very useful. I think I have it now.

here's a quick image that may be on the right lines. I know the line from the top of the door on the facing wall at the end is slightly higher than the door line on the side walls. And ignore that line that slopes down from the top of the doorway. It was an old line that didn't erase properly.

But I do believe I understand more what I'm doing now. Or I hope I do!

I'm off to Halifax today for meetings tomorrow but will be back on Friday and I'll fit in some drawing if I can. Airports are good for perspective...:)


03-29-2006, 10:51 AM
My view is unique because I added a car; took away two cars, several lampposts; the back building and added a tree. Is that what you were asking? Also, here are the two pictures side by side. The awning is held up by elfin magic. (actually it is in the shade, but there are two lines (like ropes) that are holding it up.)

Can you see this well enough to make any sense out of it?

03-29-2006, 10:54 AM
Hi all, Robin
Been up an hour, it's 3.44 could not sleep, got my G/T 2nd mug.
Must make a start come daylight. Am thinking As my photo verticals and horizontals are out a tad I'll improvise.
So what if i assume and line up a nearby left shop vertical as accurate. Then square of it for the horizontls. (Tired so spelling is crap)
Not certain without looking at the piccy where my H/L is, the V/P seems about right. Was guessing here. In this piccy with so much around in the distance does it matter. Not like a sea level break to sky. Must make a start am falling well behind, is it P2 next week or when?
Sipping tea

03-29-2006, 11:36 AM
I have a dumb question. Should the windows on the second floor (above the right side of the building) be tilted to show the angle of the VP?

Mary Woodul
03-29-2006, 11:37 AM
Robin, this class is fantastic and there is so much information that I will print it out and read carefully.

I have these three references and I don't want to try anything too complicated because I am really out of my comfort zone here. I don't know if these will work.

03-29-2006, 11:49 AM
Wow, Mary. These are wonderful photographs. I wish I had found something easier. Pass the aspirin please.

03-29-2006, 12:36 PM
Robin, hope you can view this WIP. The left side has been pushed more to the left than in the reference. Am I on the right track here?

I'll work on the right side next.

Mary Woodul
03-29-2006, 01:24 PM
Thank you Midge, you can use any of mine if you wish but you are doing great with your drawing.:D

03-29-2006, 01:25 PM
Hi Robin,
Just finished up on a drawing so getting a late start here. I have been poking in to see how this was going since they posted the link in the P&I Forum. Lots of nice drawing going on.
I was wondering if this image below would work for this weeks class....

Anita Murphy
03-29-2006, 01:27 PM
Oooh Ron are you coming to join us in the back row??? We've got snacks!!! :D

Anita Murphy
03-29-2006, 01:29 PM
OK I am joining the fray - finally got a ref image. Teach has approved it - EEEEK :eek: Now I guess I have to put pencil to paper!!!

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 01:37 PM
Midge What makes your picture unique, I do believe the photographer was crouching down a bit. It is a lower eye level. It still feels like your verticals are leaning a bit to the right so be careful when you are transfering the image. Do you have a right triangle to work with. If not you can use the corner of a piece of paper to make a judgement as to whether or not it is 90 degrees.

Stacy Even if you only do the indoor hallway for this you will learn something. You don't have to take it to a finished product. That you can do after you learn the method. And I will be around if you have questions after class.

Jeanette you are a quick learner. I want you to understand that back wall does not have to be a square, and your VP lines do not have to criss cross exactly in an "X" . If you are doing this just to learn it that is fine. You can create dramatic interiors with it in a broken "X". Stand faceing the living room wall, study the ceiling corner lines and the floor corner lines. Now move to one side or the other. Do you see how the lines change dramatically. Only under the situation that you have presented with a square wall, and the viewer is standing smack dab in the middle focusing on the center of that wall will it happen that your lines are in a perfect "X"

Les The reason you need your horizon line is so you can take the right triangle or 90 degrees off of it for each of your verticals. You are not improvising you are correcting the distortion / clarity of the camera. It is bending the lines you are makeing them true. The HL is exactly parallel with the bottom and top of your paper and runs smack dab through the VP.

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 01:40 PM
Midge All verticals on windows in a one point perspective will remain vertical. It is in a 3 point where they start tilting to a third VP

03-29-2006, 01:45 PM
Hi Anita,
The back row??? hahaha. I've never spent much time on perspective which is why I should be here. Some formal training can only help my work. Too many times I just eyeball it so I'm sure I'm making a gazillion mistakes. Snacks are a bonus!

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 01:46 PM
Morph You are doing a great job and the left windows seem to be constructed correctly. Did you find the midpoint and draw a diagonal?

Mary Love them all, I guess it is your choice how much work you are up to this week and where you struggle with perspective.

Ron Welcome This is going to make a great drawing. You have some multiples to work out and dividing in thirds looks like it will give you a workout. Just no tracing. Do you know approx measurements of a boxcar?

Anita Stop snackin' and put some lines on that paper.

Anita Murphy
03-29-2006, 01:49 PM
Anita Stop snackin' and put some lines on that paper.
Spoilsport!!! :p ;)

03-29-2006, 01:50 PM
Hi Robin,
I have no clue as to the measurements of anything in my image. Multiples...Thirds?? Did I just jump into the deep end of the pool?

Anita Murphy
03-29-2006, 02:14 PM
Ron - you and me both - perspective is my nemesis!!!

Ok I am stuck already - don't even know where to start! Someone pass me a cookie!!

03-29-2006, 02:34 PM
Morph You are doing a great job and the left windows seem to be constructed correctly. Did you find the midpoint and draw a diagonal?

robin: For the shuttered windows on the left, I just set the width of the nearest one, then used the diagonal to construct the next one as I moved closer to the VP. Where the diagonal intersected the bottom window sill defined the width for that window. It looks right but is the technic correct?

03-29-2006, 02:56 PM

Yorky, thanks--I have ruled that one out as well. Still hedging on 2 but we will see....

Mary Woodul
03-29-2006, 02:56 PM
Hi Robin,
I have no clue as to the measurements of anything in my image. Multiples...Thirds?? Did I just jump into the deep end of the pool?

Ron, nice to see you!:) After seeing your quote, i want to run!!!:eek:

Robin, thank you! I hope I don't have any Multiples and Thirds.:crying:

Anita Murphy
03-29-2006, 03:06 PM
I don't know what I am doing here. Help!!! I think I need to bring the VP down a bit.


03-29-2006, 03:43 PM
Morning all
Robin have been working out the diags and horrors on tracing paper, tinks I have some idea now, so after coffee and muffins, (my shout folk) its start for real on paper.

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 03:46 PM
Ron We are going to guesstimate then...
The door looks about 2 ft wide and about 6 ft tall. So we can base everything off of that. You can judge height and width of the end close to us from that and establish your HL from the height the door is off of the ground. So you draw your HL, then draw the right bottom edge of the train. Pull a vertical to indicate where the forward most corner would be. then measure up that vertical using the "ruler" method I have shown on previous posts.

Anita Would you please put the RI next to the drawing in a thumbnail. It helps me to see the angle you are trying to draw. Or I can suggest a different view.

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 03:54 PM
Les Way to Go!

JayDFor the bush and tree picture there really isn't anything to work with to draw other than dimenishing size of trees which can be deceiving since trees grow at different heights. For the building (school?) you must understand that where you are standing you are on what we consider the ground plane. We would have to contruct is such that we are actually digging out the ground and measureing it below us, more or less like a 3 pt perspective. I would rather call on Mike Mulligan to do that. And perhaps by Basic 103 you will be advanced enough to do this. A lot of construction goes into a shot like that.

Anita Murphy
03-29-2006, 04:00 PM

Can already see mistake. BRB

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 04:59 PM
Anita The eye level is where you are standing and looking straight a head at the horizon line (if it were there in the distance). This makes you VP up a ways about the third chair. Something to think about with chairs, the back of the chair seat isn't always the same width as the front of the chair. This might make the sides angle which will throw off your construction lines. Go measure (or just eyeball it) if so we need to draw the chair as if it were a square or a rectangular seat and then adjust it for the change in width.
Does this make sense to you?

Anita Murphy
03-29-2006, 05:58 PM
Robin - I understand about the VP being at eyelevel - but that makes the seats of the chairs very steep and I don't think they are in the ref - is this because I was not focusing the camera straight ahead but slightly down?

03-29-2006, 06:18 PM
Just lightly reading all the new posts is wearing me out, never mind understanding it all. Some disclaimers: I don't have the proper tools yet, I never work on anything this larger, prefer something that will fit in my scanner, the engineer drawing class I took was over 50 years ago. Now please pass the chocolate, lots of it.
This is a rough sketch, to see if I am on the right track. It is 22" x 16". Robin, you suggested I add the door on the left and extend the gate on the right. I have no idea how the gate is connected to the wall. I think in reality, there must be a gate on the left, too. I am hesitating on the door on the left, since I am imagining it, but don't think anything of the recess will show, just part of the door frame. The one on the right is covered up by the gate. I am questioning whether the top of the gate is really that high? I have marked the VP and eye level on the image with a red line and (large) dot. I know Dee asked about arches, but I have no clue about drawing them properly. Okay, should I go ahead or what?

03-29-2006, 06:25 PM
OK...After reading all these posts and getting totally confused I decided to just jump in and do one. I had a time deciding what I wanted to do, but finely settled on this shot of part of my kitchen. I think it covers everything in this lesson and is fairly simple.

First I used the photo to draw my EL and then the prespective lines. I hope this is correct.

Are we going to continue working on this image or is this just for the first week? Not really interested in doing a finished piece of my kitchen. LOL




03-29-2006, 06:35 PM
My eyes are turning in, my hair has gone greyer...and I haven't had to worry about my VPL for years!:evil: Who said I needed to take this class? I'm scrabbling about so much my drawing is rapidly becoming a monotone! :eek:...and I've just remembered who.... Oh...It was me!
I know I should have listened to teacher...I confess to trying to stall by adding shadows before objects...I've soldier on...adding a bit taking away a bit...for now I just need to know which way is up?:wink2:

Waah....who ate all the chocolate?http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Mar-2006/33616-34523-0_shakehead.gif

Oh...yes...this is what my mess looks like....the worst bit is hidden by the ref...how's that for crafty?:p I usually just put my thumb over the bad bits...:evil:

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 06:37 PM
Anita BRB? ...tap....tap....tap (repeat)

I have had a request for elipses. We shall talk about it as it is related to one point perspective.
When ever you draw an elipse you need to draw the square or rectangle that it would fit in. An elipse can also be an oval shape.
Now if you have a glass, or bottle, you will have an oval at the top and at the bottom. So you need to have the rectangular shape at the top and the bottom.
I did see is a previous thread that ovals are the same shape top and bottom and that is incorrect. The width can change if the bottle is shaped like a coke bottle, or wine bottle. The depth changes, as the object moves away from the HL the elipse will be bigger, and as it is close to the HL it will almost be closed, and then as it moves above the HL it will get bigger again, but you will not see the back side.
Here is a very primary example of elipses:http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Mar-2006/30341-elipse_1.jpg

Now the important part of finding the elipse is you need to find the center point of the front and back by laying in a light construction line to the VP.
Then you need to find the mid point of the sides. This is done by making a diagonal from the four corners and at the middle you draw a horizotal line and where this crosses the sides that is your mid point. These points are important because that is the widest point or where the circle touches the square.
I have done this all free hand because I can't get to my work surface right now (the painter is there), but you can see from my freehand that it is rather important to get these curves smooth. Especially if you are going to do something that is a going to have a clean look to it, such as painting a wine glass. There are tools made called curves that help you draw these shapes more precise.
I would suggest that you take some scratch paper though and just try to very quickly with a pencil in the air, make an elipse shape. round and round in the air above your paper, then when you are brave keep your hand moving and go around and around lightly on the paper. Keep it light . Make it like my cylinder. Small and large. practice them over and over, then when you need to sketch them in real life you are able to approximate them on your drawing and then clean them up with a templete. Be careful because you might become addicted to drawing glasses, and pots and Coffee mugs, and margarita glasses. Practice...

Rose anything more specific?

Anita Murphy
03-29-2006, 06:45 PM
OK I went and looked at my chairs again - the real ones. I stood and looked at eye level and using my peripheral vision (does that go down as well as sideways?) to look at the chair seats. They are way lower, less steep than I have them. Of course the fact that the front of the seat is wider than the back has me more confused. Anyway what I see is that my VP would in theory be miles and miles away for my eyelevel to meet the seat angle (does that make any sense?) So I figure that the VP should on paper be very low - only just above the bottom of the seat level of the third chair. But this also makes my seats very narrow. :confused:

PS Robin I did come back after that BRB - between you and Connie! :D

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 06:54 PM
Anita Here is a very quick sketch of the chairs. Now with this photo you should be able to draw this from any different view that you want. You will make the depth of the seats to look in proportion to the width. With this one photo you can draw it from any view point. The HL will still remain the same as long as you are standing. Once you sit down your vantage point is lowered. Whether you point your camera down or not your HL is still the same because as you stand in your living room your couch is lower than the HL or eye level, you happen to be looking down at the seats your eye level is still approx 5.0 give or take a few inches. If you are 7 ft tall you need to account for that, just like I said if your picture is from the perspective of an animal it will be lower. Unless you have a pet giraffe.
comprendez vous? ( HS french, is that right?)

Anita Murphy
03-29-2006, 07:06 PM
Oui! Je comprends! I think I do! Going to go have another go.

The link to the CP is on class 33 thread for you.

03-29-2006, 07:11 PM
Oui! Je comprends! I think I do! Going to go have another go.

The link to the CP is on class 33 thread for you.
Une pomme pour le professeur...:music: :music: :music: :p :p :p :evil:

......Avez-vous mangé de tout le chocolat ?:mad: :p

03-29-2006, 07:13 PM
Goodness me. I get a commission and after talking to the client I come back and two more pages have been added. Phew! Lots of data. I'll have to take a raincheck for a couple of days. Got a wonderful new client so I need to work on his project. I shall return. (Lets see, write down current page number - 15 and start from here when I get finished.)

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 07:16 PM
Connie Tools are important, but we can make do for now. If you are serious about your work, and want quality drawings to begin with you need to invest in some simple tools, a right triangle is important, and a T-square is also worth having. Once you can draw it with the aid of tools then you can draw it free hand much easier. I still need to check every now and then when my eye deceives me.
One thing I am seeing in your picture vs your drawing is that the Hl is lower in your drawing. Do you see that? Your eye level is coming in about mid way on the side door. You are rather small, or we could say you are sitting on a bench waiting for someone.
To construct those arches. Similar to elipses, but your square is tipped on its side. You have to draw a square above the doorway and construct a simi-circle in that area. Also the rectangular shapes of the main doorway will be in perspective to the back doorway, so the corners also fall on the same lines to the VP. I am curious about the height of the left door. Follow the line of the top of the door on your drawing to the corner make a mark. Follow the same line on the top of the picture to the corner, are they at the same place in relationship to the archway?
I am trying to communicate what I know and it is not easy without drawing in front of you. Sometimes a video is needed to learn. I think you have done a great job with your drawing.

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 07:21 PM
Maria Great job Maria. The only think I see here that needs to be clearer is the edge of the open door. I see the window panes, but the edge is left a bit invisible. I a painting that would really matter because it would give that door the dimension. The person taking this picture was stooping down or was seated.
I can tell this by where your eye level is. We know the height of the door, and we know approx height of a person unless again this person is small or seated.
edit: Two more things, on the back door. Make sure that the window panes are the same size. Divide the sides by 3's. And make sure the panel in the bottom of the door, is placed in the center of the bottom of the door. Measure equal sides, usually the bottom is a bit wider than the top and sides.

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 07:28 PM
Dee Now aren't you a clever one! The construction drawing is rather a important step. There are those that try to short step the process, and in a gallery I can tell the ones that have no clue. You have a bit of a clue, but you cannot hide behind shadows. They even need to be plotted out on a construction drawing. Because the suns rays are in a straight line and hit objects where by causeing shadows. This can be figured out with patience. Can you plot out a series of doors or arched windows like on one of the beautiful cathedrals in your country? What about a country fence to keep the cows in?

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 07:32 PM
Midge Bye for now, Good luck on the commission. Hope you come back.

EveryoneSorry I can't condense this information. Maybe a digital chip can be inserted in the side of the brain that understands perspective.
Or we just buckle down and and perservere. Anything worth learning is worth the time needed.

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 07:34 PM
Dee I do not have any chocolate. I am ready for something though. I rarely drink though due to migraine. I just think I need to consider dinner. At least my family would like that. We have not been able to go in the kitchen all day, so everyone is ready for after school snacks.

03-29-2006, 07:44 PM
Alright guys, enough of the omelet language. Speak Grits please!!

Robin--I think I am going to do one of the Andrews High School photos (the building). I photographed it from above so I want to make sure that I do this correctly--I need to bring my viewpoint down--is that correct. You mentioned figuring out how to do this. Is there a method that I should follow? I was thinking of doing a tracing of the photograph first and then using that tracing to construct the drawing from another viewpoint on some other paper and transferring the finished line drawing to the good paper. Am I saying this correctly?

03-29-2006, 07:53 PM
I might joke about it Robin...but I am trying really hard! I understand the perspective a bit, but trying to draw with a ruler just don't seem natural...and my spirit tries to break free before my hands can stop it! That's how it feels anyway! Joking apart, here's what I've done so far...warts and all! Remember...this piece is a whopping 18x24"

Anita Murphy
03-29-2006, 08:29 PM
Dee - I'm certainly only a novice at this but I think that looks amazing!

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 08:43 PM
Dee I may joke also but I am trying to be serious too. It is difficult to help you on a finished piece. The idea is to do a construction drawing first, then transfer it to another piece of paper and then you don't have to draw with a pencil any longer. You already would have your light lines, to be able to guide your brush, your charcoal, pencil or pastels. It is like the framework of the house. You can't put up the wall paper before you have the windows roughed in.
You have a nice drawing ( my daughter even said so) it is a good drawing using the picture as a reference, I don't see that the wood /stone side of the building has been carefully measured to run equal rows. Also the area on the left in front of the lady, I am not sure if it is a doorway or if is protruding into the walkway. These are things that get figured out in the working drawing. Construction or working drawings do take some time and patience. This is a fine example of one point perspective however.

JayD It isn't that you have to move your eye level I just want you to understand... picture yourself standing your living room. You are staring at the front window. That is a typical one point. What you are now going to do on a very large scale, is cut the floor away and figure out stairs and guide rails down below you. I think this might be Advanced perspective. I know it is a cool drawing but I think (I may be wrong) it might be over our heads to do over the internet. Maybe if you were the only student ...but I have a room full ... and a few trouble makers in the back row.

03-29-2006, 09:23 PM
ok, I will look around a bit more and find something a bit more simplistic. Thanks, Robin.

Anita Murphy
03-29-2006, 09:26 PM
and a few trouble makers in the back row
*Looking around to see who she means* :D ;) :rolleyes:

03-29-2006, 10:20 PM
I think I have that 'eureka' moment Robin.

I understand what you're saying and how the view point can alter the cross point. I guess I've taken the easy route by dealing with a centre view point.

I'm sitting in a hotel room after one too many glasses of wine, playing with the view and seeing what I can come up with. Unfortunately no camera or scanner at my fingertips so my efforts will have to wait until Friday.

Hi Ron, good to see you tackling this torture... errr fun...with us. :)

Wonderful reference images Mary. I love the arches of the wall especially.

Les, you've got it obviously. Now come and do mine please. Waving a bottle of wine....

03-29-2006, 10:34 PM
Ok.. tackling this again... I think, but I can't be positive, that I've got it semi figured out. I'm having some issues with the tiling on the walls, more so on the left side, but I did it first.. and then did the right. I think the right side came out better... not quite, but closer. I also think I didn't do it big enough for my paper.

Anyways.. here's the ref and the drawing so far.


oh and I haven't put in the toilet yet, or the toilet paper holder. :lol:


03-29-2006, 10:37 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Mar-2006/5632-one_point.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Mar-2006/5632-art_junction.jpg

Hi Robin: I have uploaded my sketch and my photo. I hope the photo is
okay. Is the sketch suppose to be in measurements? I did not see that
in the outlined assignment but may have missed it. If not, which I don't know how to do, what is next? Help. thanks


03-29-2006, 10:45 PM
Hi Myra-looks good. I would suggest for the side wall tiles though that you LOOK HERE. (http://studiochalkboard.evansville.edu/lp-diminish.html). Very helpful link. You only need to do this for the one side-then bring the top of the tile lines straight over to the other wall and draw them down-being this is a centered drawing. One other thing-don't forget the tiles have a thickness that extends out from the drywall.
Also you need to revisit the constuction of the window and all the components that make it up as well as the recessed depth there.

Fireman's kid
03-29-2006, 10:46 PM
Okay, I finally have something to show. I used Robin's reply (post #167) to Mary and Jeanette to draw an imaginary hallway. Hopefully I got it correct.

This is the measurements I tried for...
Hallway 4 units (feet, meters, you pick ;) ) wide
Ceiling 8 units high
Doors 6.5 units high and 2.5 units wide
Closest edge of furthest door on left 5 units from back wall

The one area I wasn't sure about was getting the measurements on the floor. Robin you used a one foot by one foot square in your example because the back edge of your door was one foot from the end of the room (back plane). But if my door was 5 units from the back plane I couldn't estimate a 1 x 1 square. So I estimated a 5 x 5 square instead. I decided as long as I was using a square the diagonal line from corner to corner would be correct. Was I right? (Does what I typed even make sense? :D This is a case of pictures being clearer than words! :eek: )

By the way, my construction lines were pretty thin and light on the scan. I hope you can see them. Ignore the thick lines. They are from try #1 on the opposite side of the paper. :o What I am posting is actually try #2.


One more question, the reason I drew an imaginary hallway is because my hallway has a "jog" in it. It is wider by the landing of the stair and narrower further down the hall. One of the bedroom doors is on the angeled wall where the hallway narrow. So the question is, how would I draw that angeled part in perspective? And is it still considered 1 point? (Okay so that's two questions. You caught me. :lol: )

If my drawing is correct, I will move on to my outside picture (still 1 point perspective). I got the additional picture of the building on the left and turns out it has some nice arches. Drat. :D

Fireman's kid
03-29-2006, 10:48 PM
Myra, great reference!! It will give you a lot of practice with all of those tiles. :)

03-29-2006, 10:55 PM
Judi... thank you! I'm checking out the link now. I knew I messed up on the wall tiles.. lol I hadn't actually added the depth yet, I wanted to make sure I had it all positioned right before I did that... because I know grout dips. :) The window has given me an awful time actually.. it was harder than the floor tile. OH ok I had to go back and look at it again to see what I goofed on the window. hehe thanks. :)

Stacy... thanks.. it's been fantastic for headaches .. hehehe :) Lots and lots of practice though... but I've never drawn using a ruler before so this feels really awkward, figured tile would be the best bet for getting over that. hehe

03-29-2006, 11:04 PM
Nice work:) though you have been adding the pretty pieces too soon. Where is the vanishing point? All the sidewalk lines and building lines that are parallel to the sidewalk need to go there.
It is very important that all these major issues are worked out before you add the rest. For example-the part of the building that juts out into the sidewalk area in the front of the drawing closest to you needs to be reconstructed.
All doors and windows are made up of wooden or metal supports that have depth/dimension and need to be drawn so.
All vertical lines need to be vertical. Do you have a triangle to help you with that?

Robin Neudorfer
03-29-2006, 11:46 PM
Jeanette - a Eureka moment while drinking ... boy this class has really gone out of control. JK I am glad that you are able to see it now. It is rather cool.

Myra I like the view, Judi gave you perfect instruction on the tiles. It is looking good. Even if you only learn one or two aspects each week you will be far ahead of where you were when you signed on for this.

Robin Neudorfer
03-30-2006, 12:08 AM
leirrem - if you are using the photo to "find" the VP I found it to the left side of the tree. If you are going to draw from scratch you place the VP where you want off in the distance. And all of your lines that represent the top an bottom of the store fronts will start at the VP. The side walk curbe will also start at the VP
A working drawing in perspective has to be made up from measurements. If you have a door of a certain height then the window is in proportion to that, the concrete sidewalk lines are in proportion to the door. One relates to the next. you can't have a 2" curb and a 7 ft door.
It would look like that if you didn't have something to measure off of.

Robin Neudorfer
03-30-2006, 12:52 AM
Stacy you are one smart lady... I was trying to slip a fast one past you because the I think it should be taught in a later class.
Here is why:
Since you can't take measurements off of a perspective drawing you have to use a measuring system which is based on a Measuring Point. This point is usually off of the drawing surface on the eye level. By drawing lines from the Measuring Point to a scale derived on the ground line you can determine the viewing distance of any object. We are not going to go into this in this class.

For the first square we are measuring off of, use the four ft segments that you drew and draw what you think is a square onto the floor. You have to really see it as a square and not a rectangle. Now all the other squares are base off of that first one. See Mary and Jeanette's example. By drawing through the diagonal it sets up the next square.
I am not sure where why you decided on a 5 x 5 square.
I also am not understanding your doorway widths on the side wall. Can you explaing how you figured that or if you just made up a width why did you choose that one?

Robin Neudorfer
03-30-2006, 01:05 AM
Myra you would be surprised how often, if you draw from life, you will use perspective without really realizing it. You will calculate the measurements based on the shape of one item in relationship to another. This is all done without you actually taking out a ruler, but your mind is doing it for you, because you have a memory of the size relationship of one object to another.
It seems different with interior spaces, or architecture, because you don't always take time to notice those details as much.

03-30-2006, 02:13 AM
Hi Robin,
Heres what I have so far...sorry it's kind of light. Old drafting habit from PCC. I darkened in the main lines.
My vanishing point from the caboose worked out ok but the box car and engine have different vanishing points.....I double checked this but there are 3 so I drew my lines according to the shape of the cars...please tell me now that I was supposed to use only the one VP so I can bang my head on the desk here.
The bottom of the box car was 6 degrees different. Here's what I have...


Here is the off perspective lines to the VP's I'm talking about...

The undercarriage isn't in yet and only really faint lines for the bottom lines of the track...wanted to see if this is working so far.
( Hi Jeanette!! Wine and no camera! you just don't want any evidence! haha)

03-30-2006, 02:33 AM
Robin...my drawing is not finished at all...it is about 60% done though. I totally see your point, but once I'd made the first mistake it was difficult not to carry on in the same vein.:o
I've scrapped that one and wish to start another please, this time with easier windows please. Could you choose a reference for me to do please? I promise - no shading until you say so, and no people! And you can have my chocolate!:D

03-30-2006, 02:34 AM
Ron, although various objects in your photo may have different vanishing points, they will all lie on the Horizon. If an object is not level viz the waggon, then it will not project onto the Horizon. If a street is curved for example, you will get multiple VP's, but all will be on the Horizon:


Here's a simple animation I did to explain the use of the VP:



03-30-2006, 03:00 AM
Hi Doug,
Thanks for the advice....I'll go an re-check my VP's. Mine didn't seem to line up on the HL so I'll study the ref image again and check my angles. Thanks again for the help....

03-30-2006, 03:32 AM
Ok Robin, I've found a photo I took. What do you think? It's not much but I thought it was a simple start as I'm not that confident.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Mar-2006/66155-1763_The_Zenana,_Womens_Quarters,_Amber_Fort.JPG