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Wayne Gaudon
02-13-2002, 03:37 PM
I think I read once that any type of oil paint can be readily mixed with any other type of oil paint.

Can Grumbracher Pre Tested Oils be mixed with any other brand of Professional Quality Oils?

Einion
02-13-2002, 07:01 PM
Yep, should be no problem, barring any pigment interactions which are rare these days.

Einion

Leopoldo1
02-13-2002, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by Einion
Yep, should be no problem, barring any pigment interactions which are rare these days.
Einion

I can buy the first part, but please explain the latter.......... barring any pigment interactions which are rare these days?

What do we do as artist, use pure pigments only in our work? We are constantly mixing pigments to arrive at a desired hue, mixed or otherwise and then a vehicle is added to bind the particles, like linseed oil, etc. Please give us specifics on what you define as pigment interactions I am sure we would all like to know. :oL

Einion
02-17-2002, 11:31 PM
This is mostly a problem with older pigments, you might remember in the past manufacturers used to list colours that could not be safely mixed together but this has almost completely disappeared today. Most modern lightfast pigments are stable compounds in most respects and this extends to their inertness in mixes. You will likely have read of reactions with sulphur-bearing pigments and Flake White? This is perhaps the most commonly-cited example, where free sulphur in cadmium colours and Ultramarine (you can often smell sulphur from this colour) supposedly turns them black over time and one still sees warnings about it from supposedly authoritative sources today (doesn't Mayer's book state this?) But since none of the paint manufacturers mentions it any more one can probably take this with a pinch of salt. Besides, genuine Vermilion is mercuric sulphide and this has usually stood up fine when mixed with lead carbonate in the past so it's obviously not a huge problem (in oils especially where the binder offers quite a measure of protection in well-made paint).

These days most (all?) ranges are tested for permanence alone and with all the other colours in the range but of course this does not extend to pigments used by other manufacturers so it is still a possibility, if a minor one. For example anyone with a colour made from PR3 (BON Arylamide Red) or PR9 (Toluidine Red) should not mix this colour with any lead-based colour, whites especially.

Einion

jimbob
02-18-2002, 02:00 AM
:cat:
Some families of paint products will not give you the desired performance you are looking for-if thay are mixed with uncompatible pigments
for instance
there are some manufacturers that make synthetic pigments like (the 200 ml tubes of Windsor and Newton)
you should always check with the manufacturer to find out what can and cannot be done with the paint before you buy your paint

Luis Guerreiro
02-18-2002, 06:00 AM
Originally posted by jimbob
:cat:
Some families of paint products will not give you the desired performance you are looking for-if thay are mixed with uncompatible pigments
for instance
there are some manufacturers that make synthetic pigments like (the 200 ml tubes of Windsor and Newton)
you should always check with the manufacturer to find out what can and cannot be done with the paint before you buy your paint

Those 200 ml. tubes from W&N are Winton Oil colour, for students and artists who need a lot of colour at an affordable price. W&N states that Winton Oil Colour is compatible with the entire Oil range from W&N (i.e. Artists, Alkyd, Oilbar, etc...) If that is the case, then it should be compatible with any other brand, so long as oils are ground in pure oil, there should be no problem. Synthetic pigments are usually compatible. I know Einion knows a lot about pigments and he might want to input more and better information though.

Wayne Gaudon
02-18-2002, 07:12 AM
Thanks to all for the input.

I'm only working on what is available to me at a moment's notice so I have Grumbacher Pre Tested & Van Gogh .. I think Van Gogh is probably student grade but I'm not sure .. I was missing 2 colors so I bought the Van Gogh .. I guess I'll find out soon enough how it goes unless someone has a strong reason not to use the two togeather.

kevinjh
02-18-2002, 03:52 PM
Would anyone see a downside to using student grade oils to draw and underpaint, and then later to cover over with artist grade? I have a mess load of student grade Winton paints and would like to make some use of them

Wayne Gaudon
02-19-2002, 06:07 AM
I don't know the validiy of this but I read

... people think they have to use high grade paints when in fact that isn't the case. The high end paints have less filler and that makes them much better for applying thin layers of paint as they carry further. However, if you apply thick paint that advantage can turn to a disadvantage as they are harder and may crack. The student grade paints have more filler and are better for applying thick paint as the filler makes them softer. The only difference is the amount of paint and filler vary but the paint is still paint.

.. all comments welcome. I personally think it makes sense.

Luis Guerreiro
02-19-2002, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by artist
Thanks to all for the input.

I'm only working on what is available to me at a moment's notice so I have Grumbacher Pre Tested & Van Gogh .. I think Van Gogh is probably student grade but I'm not sure .. I was missing 2 colors so I bought the Van Gogh .. I guess I'll find out soon enough how it goes unless someone has a strong reason not to use the two togeather.

Hi Artist,
Van Gogh is the student grade paint from a manufacturer called Royal Talens (Netherlands). Their High grade is called Rembrandt. Oils from Royal Talens are good enough, although there are better choices at an affordable price.

Wayne Gaudon
02-19-2002, 09:22 AM
thanks Luis ..
I only had 2 options at the store in town .. Winton or Van Gogh and I figured if Van Gogh cost more it should be better but I would venture a guess .. that is not always the case.

Luis Guerreiro
02-19-2002, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by kevinjh
Would anyone see a downside to using student grade oils to draw and underpaint, and then later to cover over with artist grade? I have a mess load of student grade Winton paints and would like to make some use of them

Winsor & Newton "WINTON" is not only used by students. Artists who need a lot of paint at a standard price use them too. I know quite a few of them. Winton colours replace expensive pigments with synthetic pigments of a similar hue/shade. There are many ways to save money and get good results. One way is to have your basic 12 colours palette in Winton and use Artists High Grade for colours which are literally impossible to replace with synthetic pigments. I can think of 2 obvious examples of this: Cerulean Blue, typically a very expensive colour can be successfuly replaced with Manganese Blue (or a mix of Phthalo + White) etc... It's not 100% the same hue, BUT hey... Very very similar to the naked eye. Now Cobalt Blue. The real Cobalt Blue is very difficult to immitate using other pigments, can't really escape this one, so you need to buy the real cobalt blue. And so on... The first step would be to buy the handpainted colour charts and compare the hues. Since you have a lot of Winton, but a chart of Winton and another of W&N Artists Oil Colour, it's easy to check which colours you can get away with and the ones you can't.
Also look into the pigment composition of each colour. Winton practice is to replace expensive pigments with synthetic ones AND/OR mix several pigments to achieve the desired colour replacement. There is a problem here: When mixing colours on the palette, you more likely to get muddier mixes. Finally, when comparing colours, in addition to all the above, also check the SERIES the colour belongs to, because although the hue is very similar it may not be a good idea to use a cheaper grade. Oxide of Chromium Green from Winton is quite similar in hue to the same colour in Artists Grade, but look at its Series Number (4) and undertone, strength, etc... It may be worth to use the better grade for this colour too, whereas for a lot of Series 1 colours you might be better off using Winton (Ochres and Earth colours, Blacks, etc...) In the end, the choice is yours and there is no way out of doing your own research into these issues.
Luis :)

Luis Guerreiro
02-19-2002, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by artist
thanks Luis ..
I only had 2 options at the store in town .. Winton or Van Gogh and I figured if Van Gogh cost more it should be better but I would venture a guess .. that is not always the case.

Artist,
Manufacturing parameters and processes vary from Manufacturer to Manufacturer. I have done the following hundreds of times over the past 10 years or so: Pick the very same colour (check the pigment numbers on the tube) from the manufacturers you want to check: Say, pick the smallest tube size available of Yellow Ochre, from Winton, Van Gogh, Lukas Studio, Schminke Norma, etc... (all cheaper grades). Test them, that is paint with them in the usual way you do. Do the same test with High Grade Professional paints (W&N Artists, Rembrandt, Old Holland, Art Spectrum Professionals, Schminke Mussini, etc... You'll be amazed at the differences, even among high grade professional paints.

Einion
02-19-2002, 05:50 PM
As Luis mentions, Winton and Van Gogh, being second ranges, keep price down by substituting cheaper pigments for more expensive ones (especially those made from heavy metals like cobalt and cadmium), plus usually a lower proportion of pigment in the blend, which is often then made up with an inert filler to maintain consistency. This doesn't make them bad paint, just not the best paint. Assuming a good pigment used in a given colour they should stand the test of time quite well - most are ASTM I or II remember, and some artists'-grade paints actually have lower lightfastness, anything with Ali Crimson in it for example. Their lower pigment load just means differences in handling and opacity especially, so they can't be used for certain effects in place of better paints. BTW Winton's Vermilion Hue uses one of the two pigments I mentioned in my previous post, so should not be mixed with lead whites for anyone who uses it.

Originally posted by kevinjh
Would anyone see a downside to using student grade oils to draw and underpaint, and then later to cover over with artist grade? I have a mess load of student grade Winton paints and would like to make some use of them
What I'm about to say is a gross oversimplification of course, but since student oils are usually oilier than artists'-grade they might actually be better for the drawing layer as potentially they can be thinned with turps to a greater level while still maintaining adhesion, not something one sees mentioned often eh? Seems counter-intuitive until you think about it. One would have to be careful about using leaner paints above this of course, so it might be wise to restrict their use just to turps-thinned layers and not for any true underpainting or you run the risk of violating the fat-over-lean rule.

FWIW, it has been posited more than once that student-quality paint might actually be a better choice for certain painting effects, thick impasto in particular, as if the proportion of pigment is too high in thick paint you really will run into problems with ageing. Same might go for glazing if you want to avoid or minimise the use of any mediums just using the paint straight from the tube could work very well for colours like Ultramarine, helping prevent too much oil in the top layers.

Einion

kevinjh
02-20-2002, 05:33 PM
Thanks for the tips! This means that I can paint with reckless abandon, or at least worry a little less about how much paint I'm going to have to replace:)

nam26b
02-21-2002, 12:45 AM
Hello all,

Just wanted to jump in to say that one thing I like about Winton (what I've mostly been using to learn with while slowly building a pallette of higher quality paint) is that for many pigments, there is a "mid-range" color that uses the real pigment. For instance there are cad. reds, cobalt blue, cad. orange, and several others from Winton that use the exact same pigment (listed on the back) as the artist quality paint. It's probably lower in concentration, but, for instance, I have both types of Cobalt blue and have tested them in a variety of ways. The only difference I could find was the winton was a little oilier...but not much.


I guess I don't really have a point other than the fact that I appreciate being able to use the real pigments to learn with while not paying over $9.00 for a tube of cad. red or something.


Thanks for allowing me to prattle on,

Nathan

Luis Guerreiro
02-21-2002, 04:40 AM
Please look at the Winsor & Newton WINTON range thread I am just about to write in a second. There are fresh news about this range people should be aware of...
Regards
Luis

Wayne Gaudon
02-21-2002, 07:18 AM
Luis,

I did .. wonder if you can describe the new cap so I know what to look for.