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View Full Version : Giving Katherine and Mac the boot


JamieWG
02-04-2006, 08:47 PM
Heeheehee....

Mac, thanks so much for recommending the Koh-i-noor woodless CPs. I can see why you like them.

Katherine, many thanks to you for reminding me about what a fun medium CPs are.

My daughter's foot is in a cast, so I didn't think she'd mind if I borrowed one of her favorite boots, as long as it was the one she wouldn't be needing. I decided to do a few very quick sketches just to get a feel for the differences between a few colored pencil brands and dip into CPs again.

These boots are 3" inches each (just the boot itself). One was done with Prismacolors, one with the Koh-i-Noor Progresso woodless, and one with Caran d'Ache Supracolor Soft, all on the same sheet of MiTientes paper. Anybody care to guess which is which?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Feb-2006/13766-Boots_prisma_supra_progresso_500.jpg

They were blended with turpenoid and a Q tip or, in the case of the Supracolor with water, and worked again over the top, sometimes blended yet again. It was nice to have the CPs out again.

Jamie

James or Jimmy Jim
02-04-2006, 09:04 PM
These are lovely Jamie. I should dust mine off too and give them a whirl.

Getting the boot, how funny.

RobinZ
02-04-2006, 11:46 PM
Nice, Jamie! And welcome back to colored pencils!!

JamieWG
02-05-2006, 11:59 AM
Jimmy, I would love to see colored pencil work from you. I'm always impressed by what you do with graphite alone. You know, I've been meaning to tell you....There are new Derwent pencils that are graphite mixed with a little bit of color. They are called Graphtint I think. Dick Blick had them on their website. I thought they were a little out of my budget right now and didn't get them, but they look like a wonderful compromise for those who love graphite but would like a touch of color. Supposedly they are water-blendable too. Mmmmmm....

Robin, many thanks. It felt great to dive back in with those. Afterward, I set up a still life table next to my bed so that when hubby watches the news at night, I can sketch there with my CPs. :)

Katherine and Mac, I hope you weren't offended by my title. It was all in fun; I love having you two here in the forum.

Jamie

pinkrybns
02-05-2006, 12:07 PM
Graphitints are water blendable..some of the colors aren't very ligthtfast though. I just discoverd a set here onsale.bought it right away. They're pretty cool..although some colors are a bit louder when you wet them.

Nice boots Jamie. I can't tell which one is done with what though.

Do you like hose Koh-i-noor woodless pencils? I only every tired Creta-colors and found those too scratchy.

*sorry about typos*

JamieWG
02-05-2006, 12:15 PM
Nods at Judy....I haven't tried the Creta-colors, but I did try the Derwent water soluble woodless and was VERY disappointed. I bought them on sale and resold them on Ebay.

I think the Koh-i-noor Progressos are much better. I can see why Mac likes to use them for his quick portraits. You know how Prismas can be......I adore their color intensity and drag, and they layer so well, but the constant sharpening drives me nuts. Using the woodless pencils, since you can use the side of the point to shade more, that also helps maintain the points. When time is a factor, you won't be using it up sharpening your pencils.

If you're used to Prismas, you may be a little disappointed in the pigment load of the Progressos, but they lay down very nicely and layer well. When drawing on the go, I think the Progressos would be hard to beat. They have already gone into my purse to bring with me everywhere.

Thanks for the info on the Graphitints. Good to know about the lightfastness. You'd think in this day and age, manufacturers would make that a priority, especially if they're trying to market something as an artist quality product. *rolling my eyes*

Jamie

pinkrybns
02-05-2006, 12:29 PM
Thanks Jamie for the comments on the Derwent woodless pencils - I think I'll stay away from those!You know I have just about every pencil brand ever made....been eyeing the Koh-i-noors, so will probably give in to the addiction and get them too. LOL

Yeah the lightfast issue continues, sad huh?. For that debate though, go visit the CP forum. I ain't about to start that here! :D :D :wave:

macrobertson
02-05-2006, 03:00 PM
Jamie thanks for doing the road testing... or in this case the boot testing :D
I haven't a clue which one is which, so you will have to tell me :)

I find the progresso's are good in that I can some reasonably even soft shading and underdrawing in a short time, and then increase the intensity and sharpness, but I don't use them for itense colour, and being soft they need sharpening often to maintain a point.

I haven't tried the others in your trio, but I did discover the Creta- color ones the other day. They are more expensive. I bought one and it seems to be a lot harder, so would probably keep a point longer, but haven't really tried it yet as its a slightly different hue.

Mac

Katherine T
02-05-2006, 06:52 PM
Katherine and Mac, I hope you weren't offended by my title. It was all in fun; I love having you two here in the forum.

JamieAbsolutely not Jamie - and I love being here too! I hooted when I saw the title! :)

You've not given up the secret of the pencils and I know two of them - the european version of Prismas (Karisma - now out of production) and the Caran d'Ache Supracolour. I don't know the Progressos at all. And I have no idea how any of them respond to solvent/water.

My guess is (ooooohhhhhhhhheeeerrrrrrrrrrr) Prisma - lots of pigment / Supra (weak on pigment) / Progresso. I was trying to see which one looked waxy and which one had been done with water rather than solvent but your images are too small! No fair!! :p

And for your information and edification :cool: I give you the graphitint thread (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286401) I started last year when the Graphitints first came out - you can see me using them dry on black Canson Mi Teintes (not an obvious paper to use them on) and then dry and then with water applied on Arches watercolour paper. Note I had the benefit of a long chat with the Derwent Rep at the big art fair in Islington just as they were being released.

Dharma_bum
02-06-2006, 04:12 AM
Jamie---Cool boots! Hope Sarah is doing OK. Just to create a little more confusion, Derwent is about to release a new pencil called Inktense, which is supposed to be, well, more intense than the others, more like ink. They don't say anything about lightfastness yet. I saw a thread about the graphitints that looked interesting. Cheap Joe's has them for considerably less than Blicks, for the full set anyway. Not that I need yet another media to distract me. :eek:

Dan

Wayne Gaudon
02-06-2006, 07:34 AM
Jamie, give them one for me too. :D I"m sure she could Katherin could store a lot of pencils in one of those boots and Marc could use on to put the boots to people like me who bug him with silly questions. :D

And now, for your boot. I find it strange; me who likes expressionistic color being drawn to the third boot which is almost pastel in coloring. Nice work on all but #3 seems to fill the bill.

Later,

Katherine T
02-06-2006, 08:17 AM
Thanka Wayne - I'm always in need of more storage for the pencils - it's the penalty for liking more than one brand! I must show you all a photo of my pencils some time............

JamieWG
02-06-2006, 03:45 PM
Yeah the lightfast issue continues, sad huh?. For that debate though, go visit the CP forum. I ain't about to start that here! :D :D :wave:

Hmmmm!!! Sounds interesting! I don't see how it's really a debatable point--either they are or they aren't! But I guess one can argue about just about anything. LOL :D

Jamie

JamieWG
02-06-2006, 03:51 PM
Jamie thanks for doing the road testing... or in this case the boot testing :D
I haven't a clue which one is which, so you will have to tell me :)

I find the progresso's are good in that I can some reasonably even soft shading and underdrawing in a short time, and then increase the intensity and sharpness, but I don't use them for itense colour, and being soft they need sharpening often to maintain a point.

I haven't tried the others in your trio, but I did discover the Creta- color ones the other day. They are more expensive. I bought one and it seems to be a lot harder, so would probably keep a point longer, but haven't really tried it yet as its a slightly different hue.

Mac

Mac, do you mean to tell me you've never tried Prismacolors? The darks are so rich and lush...black Prismacolor is actually my favorite sketching pencil because you can get the values all the way down to the deepest darkest black. *slurp* Then you can dip a Q-tip in turp and blend out your shadows. Way fun to play with. The Progresso darks are a little bit wimpy; I was thinking that a couple of dark Prismas like Black Grape, Black, Dark Umber, etc would round them out nicely. BUT...You really can't erase Prismas.

I'm sorry to hear that they need frequent sharpening as that was something I was hoping to avoid with the woodless ones. My sample sketches were so small that it wasn't necessary with them.


Jamie

JamieWG
02-06-2006, 03:55 PM
Absolutely not Jamie - and I love being here too! I hooted when I saw the title! :)

WHEW!!! :D


My guess is (ooooohhhhhhhhheeeerrrrrrrrrrr) Prisma - lots of pigment / Supra (weak on pigment) / Progresso.
DING! DING! DING! We have a winner! Good work, Katherine. You guessed the order. Even with the small images, I couldn't fool you.

Gotta go to work soon, but I will surely check out your Graphitint thread ASAP. Thank you for the link.

Jamie

JamieWG
02-06-2006, 04:00 PM
Jamie---Cool boots! Hope Sarah is doing OK. Just to create a little more confusion, Derwent is about to release a new pencil called Inktense, which is supposed to be, well, more intense than the others, more like ink. They don't say anything about lightfastness yet. I saw a thread about the graphitints that looked interesting. Cheap Joe's has them for considerably less than Blicks, for the full set anyway. Not that I need yet another media to distract me. :eek:

Dan

OOOOOOH!!!! INKtense. I'm there! :D Can't wait.

Thanks for the news about CJ's price. If I order them, I'll ask DB to match or go there. :)

Thanks for asking about Sarah. She's okay....hurt herself on a floor routine in gymnastics and has some tissue damage between two bones. She should be better six weeks before the State Championships and she's already qualified, so...Good timing for once! ;)

Jamie

JamieWG
02-06-2006, 04:02 PM
Jamie, give them one for me too. :D I"m sure she could Katherin could store a lot of pencils in one of those boots and Marc could use on to put the boots to people like me who bug him with silly questions. :D

And now, for your boot. I find it strange; me who likes expressionistic color being drawn to the third boot which is almost pastel in coloring. Nice work on all but #3 seems to fill the bill.

Later,

Wayne, I kinda like that one best too. Maybe it's because I did that one first so I wasn't bored with it yet. LOL

Hmmmm....Might be a little deep for a pencil holder, but then again, it sounds like Katherine needs a BIG storage space for hers!

Jamie

macrobertson
02-07-2006, 02:37 AM
do you mean to tell me you've never tried Prismacolors?
ah, well... actually I haven't tried colour pencils!, except for this pack of 24 progresso's that I bought several years ago (in a state of weakness when I was in a local art shop, which was struggling to exist, and felt I had to buy something!) never really had a use for them until I discovered how useful the browns are on the sand coloured paper I'm using for portraits.
... do you think I should?

Mac

Katherine T
02-07-2006, 03:11 AM
Mac - if you've never used artist quality coloured pencils you haven't lived! You mean you haven't experienced they way they glide across the page and then when you've been working them for a bit they seem to just melt and..........well you really have to experience this one! Of course a number of the brands are oil based..........pure pigment and oil - now what does that remind me of? ;):D

If you're interested, why don't you tell me what your local store has got and I could maybe make some recommendations.

macrobertson
02-07-2006, 03:21 PM
If you're interested, why don't you tell me what your local store has got and I could maybe make some recommendations
thanks Katherine, there isn't much locally, I usually wait until I have to go in the vicinity of some of the better stocked ones, all over 30 kms away. A quick check tells me that Prismacolour, FaberCastell and Derwent are available, and I think I'm really only interested in trying the browns at the moment.

Mac

macrobertson
02-25-2006, 12:20 AM
just thought I'd give a bit of an update here... I did buy some prismacolor pencils ( and some of the solid blocks) and I think I can supplement the progressos when some sharper lines are needed... I still like the softness of the progresso's

I tried them both together with this 20 minute drawing the other night, brown pencils on A2 paper. She was a clothed figure model, but I concentrated on her face and might have done a better job if she hadn't moved her eyes as much!
This was on gessoed paper, which was a bit hard for cp, and I found in this circumstance, that there was no significant difference between the two, except that I snapped the lead in the prismacolor trying to get some pressure!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Feb-2006/14751-DSC01019.JPG

Mac

Katherine T
02-25-2006, 03:13 AM
I think with gesso it would depend on how it was brushed on - my guess is it may be a ridge which broke the pencil rather than the gesso per se. Although breakage is one of the problems that people have had with Prismas. They have a very nice buttery laydown but they can sometimes frustrate people quite a lot through leads breaking. Sorry not to have spotted your previous post but see the product review system for more comments on different brands (http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/Products/censura.php?tsid=1&csid=89fad76de0da63baa9b0b6500941dc4c&cmd=browse&category_id=167)

You can CP on a lot of things including wood! Try your Prismas on (say) Canson Mi Teintes smooth side - it has a bit of a tooth to it.

And I know what you mean about models with eyes which dart around everywhere!!! (where's the smiley icon with the big thumb going down?)

JamieWG
02-26-2006, 09:54 AM
Sweet portrait, Mac! Those Prisma points do break easily with pressure, and an electric sharpener is nearly a requirement to prevent breakage while sharpening. There's a nice variety of darks though that are lacking in the Progresso line. Black grape is a strong favorite of mine, as well as terra cotta and a few others. Mmmm....just delicious.

Have you played with the turpenoid blending yet? I played with the Progressos for a few minutes last week, with and without blending. While working, I dropped the dark brown one on the floor and it broke into three pieces. :( Bummer! I do like the softness.

I take it the sticks you refer to are the Artstix? I have a set of those and have found them too hard. But now I'm thinking, maybe they just need to be sharpened to a point with a razor or something to make them more usable. I'm going to give that a try soon with a few of them.

Jamie

macrobertson
02-26-2006, 02:49 PM
Jamie, I think the problem is that, like with conte pencils, I like to have a bit of lead showing.... but with too much pressure they will break!

Haven't tried turpenoid, I might leave that for a bit, but I did try the Artstix ( I presume ) the short solid prismacolour sticks much like conte's. I thought they were too hard too... but I used a combination of a brown, and brown pencil for portraits yesterday and they worked very well together... especially once that edge is softened a little.
I also found the Dark Umber prisma to be a close match to the dark brown Progresso and used them together as well... I am liking the addition of the prismacolor pencil!

It seems that no pencils like to be dropped... especially on hard surfaces :mad:

Mac

JamieWG
02-27-2006, 06:19 AM
..........
Haven't tried turpenoid, I might leave that for a bit, but I did try the Artstix ( I presume ) the short solid prismacolour sticks much like conte's. I thought they were too hard too... but I used a combination of a brown, and brown pencil for portraits yesterday and they worked very well together... especially once that edge is softened a little.
..............

Mac

Mac, I pulled out the Artstix yesterday and started a sketch for the Interiors project with them. There's ink pen in there too. This is still a WIP....some things left to do today. (I'll post it to its own thread when finished) It's 8x10 in a Moleskine. Skewing on the top is photo distortion:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/Projects/lib/1000/progress/13766/022606_fireplace_450.jpg

I worked in layers and blended with turpenoid as I went. There's no question that they have greater vibrancy and pigmentation than the progressos, especially once the turp hits them, like the Prismacolor pencils. They really glow and become more intense with the solvent. When you mentioned how they get softer once that edge is softened....I took a razor blade to some of them to shave the edge down and it made a huge difference. It also made it easier to see where the mark would end up, which can be hard to know with those! LOL Thanks for posting about them. It's unlikely that I would have given them another go without that prodding.

The Progressos are still easier to travel with. As you've mentioned, they don't leave a mess all over your hands (which the Artstix did), and shading with the sides of the points is a great feature. I find the Progressos lay down faster too, if with a little less intensity.

Jamie

FriendCarol
02-27-2006, 01:28 PM
I drop my Albrecht Durer w/c pencils quite frequently (a side effect of numb hands), but they have some sort of special bonding thing that makes them quite tough. Also, the Prismacolor pencil sharpener (little manual one, conical on both sides -- cover and container, that is) is cheap but very good. I bought 2 awhile back, one to go and one to stay. They sharpen really well, and no breakage. I have many sharpeners, but this is the best. They were recommended in CP forum awhile ago; heartily endorse that. :thumbsup: