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Linda Ciallelo
02-05-2002, 08:18 PM
ok, I have been learning to oil paint for about a year now. I already know how to use pastels, egg tempera, colored pencil, water color and pen and ink, but oil is the only "serious" medium. I have been trying different mediums. I have completed one successful still life with a very limited pallet using only mineral spirits. But, I'm not happy with the lack of color and I was less than thrilled with the mineral spirits.
Recently I tried using just linseed oil(thanks to Milt) as a dilutent for my paint. I am storing my brushes in olive oil and cleaning them , between colors, with mineral spirits. I LOVE the linseed oil. I love the way you can move it around on the panel with the brush "after" you have applied it. You can get the "maximum" control , lots of changes can be made without adding extra layers of paint. I am even enjoying the ability to remove paint with a clean dry brush and let the ground show through. It dries in two days and seems the ideal medium.
However..... I am wondering why more people don't use it. Why have I not heard others suggest this? I looked it up in my Ralph Mayer artists handbook, vintage 1973, and on page 170 , at the bottom, it says that I should "avoid the use of complex mediums or plain linseed oil for fluent operations with the brush".
But it doesn't say why . Over on Rob's board , of course, I have never heard anyone suggest that one might use just plain linseed oil to dilute your paint. I am afraid to ask what might happen.
Does anyone have some knowledge on the subject that they might like to share with me?

G.L. Hoff
02-05-2002, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by Linda Ciallelo
Recently I tried using just linseed oil(thanks to Milt) as a dilutent for my paint. It dries in two days and seems the ideal medium.
However..... I am wondering why more people don't use it. Why have I not heard others suggest this? I looked it up in my Ralph Mayer artists handbook, vintage 1973, and on page 170 , at the bottom, it says that I should "avoid the use of complex mediums or plain linseed oil for fluent operations with the brush".
But it doesn't say why . Over on Rob's board , of course, I have never heard anyone suggest that one might use just plain linseed oil to dilute your paint. I am afraid to ask what might happen.
Does anyone have some knowledge on the subject that they might like to share with me?

Well, I can share my own experience. Until the last couple of years I always used linseed oil. I only learned about complex media (and began experimenting) since then. So my two cents: linseed oil alone or mixed in varying amounts with turps (or whatever--mineral spirits, spike, etc) works really well. Maybe Mayer was worried about yellowing, but don't forget he was apparently a man of enormous prejudices (e.g. the old business that nobody should ever use copals). All I can say is some of my work is pretty old (over 20 years) and looks fine from a finish standpoint, even if the compositions, etc might suck. I like plain oil as a medium.

Regards

Scott Methvin
02-05-2002, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by Linda Ciallelo
But it doesn't say why . Over on Rob's board , of course, I have never heard anyone suggest that one might use just plain linseed oil to dilute your paint. I am afraid to ask what might happen.
Does anyone have some knowledge on the subject that they might like to share with me?

I only use my washed linseed oil and a bit of canada balsam. The CB is to help the oil stick to dried layers.

I think linseed oil is just as magic as lead.

Linda Ciallelo
02-05-2002, 09:29 PM
I feel better already. "Magic" is the correct word.

kiwicockatoo
02-05-2002, 09:30 PM
Yup, pure linseed is amazing stuff. It's all I'm using right now - I apply it to the painting first and use paint straight out of the tube on top of it. HOWEVER, I am a bigginner and don't have enough paintings done to tell if what I'm doing will be harmful in the long run.

I read in a really old Artist's magazine that the reason you shouldn't use only linseed is because your surface could ripple (I don't know the technical term for this - opposite of cracking) while drying. Don't know if this depends on the thickness of paint or not - I paint fairly thin.

kiwicockatoo
02-05-2002, 09:33 PM
Oh, would anyone care to explain the difference between refined linseed oil, stand oil, ect? I know how they are made but I would like to know the difference the type of oil would make on the finished surface.
Thanks!

Scott Methvin
02-05-2002, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by kiwicockatoo
Oh, would anyone care to explain the difference between refined linseed oil, stand oil, ect? I know how they are made but I would like to know the difference the type of oil would make on the finished surface.
Thanks!

Stand oil is heated in a vaccum (without oxygen), with carbolic acid. This makes it thick, like honey and it dries slowly. On the canvas, it settles like a balsam and dries with a high enamel like gloss. It is less yellowing than most oils. It will basically stay the same color yellow-what you see is what you get.

Refined linseed oil is raw oil that is chemically treated with an alkali. This is to take the yellowing out. It's easier than washing it with water. Basically, this oil is what is universally used to make most commercial paint. It is not permanently non yellowing, either. What you see-ain't what you'll get. It dries faster than the stand oil and is not as thick. It is the most used of all the artist's linseed oils. It's very basic.

Wayne Gaudon
02-06-2002, 03:06 PM
.. does anyone have a definative verdic on the matter or a source of resource. I use linseed in the same way as kiwicockatoo but I haven't been in oils long enough to know a whole lot of anything. I have read that linseed is non-yellowing and I've seen writings where they insist you first wipe your palet down with oil and others where you wipe your canvas down with oil, etc.

Other than the slow drying, are there any persistent problems found when using pure linseed oil as a medium?

Scott Methvin
02-06-2002, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by artist
.. does anyone have a definative verdic on the matter or a source of resource. I use linseed in the same way as kiwicockatoo but I haven't been in oils long enough to know a whole lot of anything. I have read that linseed is non-yellowing and I've seen writings where they insist you first wipe your palet down with oil and others where you wipe your canvas down with oil, etc.

Other than the slow drying, are there any persistent problems found when using pure linseed oil as a medium?

Besides the fact that ALL oils will yellow to a degree, there are 2 more things to watch out for. One, it's hard to paint over dried areas with thinned paint. That's why I add the canada balsam. And two, if you use too much oil it will shrivel as it dries.Try to paint with a little oil as possible. A little goes a long way.

It's a common practice to coat your wooden pallette with linseed oil, and let it dry. Then it seals the wood and makes cleaning easier. I use glass, so it's not my practice.

Wiping down a canvas (thinly) with oil prior to painting is an excellent practice that I do all the time. After a short time the drying oil makes an wonderful surface to paint on.

This all applies to linseed oil, not liquin or poppy seed or walnut. But there are many who love those too.

It isn't real complicated. Linseed oil and dry pigment make a great durable paint. The way the oil surounds the pigment particles and the great way that it dries are the basis of all oil painting. There are many ways to make the oil dry faster or slower. Yellowing isn't even that big a deal. It happens. Anticipate it and keep the finished painting near indirect sunlight, if it does yellow real bad. The sun will fix it back.

Linda Ciallelo
02-06-2002, 07:53 PM
If it is bad practice to use too much linseed oil in paint , then how can it be good practice to put just plain linseed oil on your painting before you paint? There will certainly be places where there is nothing but pure linseed oil and that would be the most diluted paint possible, of no paint at all, just linseed oil. The two suggestions are contradictory.
How much Canada Balsaam to how much oil? Does the canada balsaam act as a stablizer? Canada balsaam is a varnish isn't it? It seems like I have read that varnish dries hard and oil dries flexible, so I can see where it would keep the oil from shriveling up.
I wonder if a little damar varnish would work as well? Or if the oil would be more stable if I added some turpentine. And the mixture would be different depending on whether you were using cheap paints containing lots of oil or Old Holland containing almost none.
I appreciate any thoughts that anyone might have. Thanks Scott. I will probably go order some Canada Balsaam from Rob.
Also, I would imagine that if you added just one or two drops of Cobalt siccative drier to the oil, it would dry very fast.

DaveTooner
02-06-2002, 09:10 PM
How about Bleached Linseed Oil? How is that different from stand, refined, etc?

Scott Methvin
02-06-2002, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by Linda Ciallelo
If it is bad practice to use too much linseed oil in paint , then how can it be good practice to put just plain linseed oil on your painting before you paint? There will certainly be places where there is nothing but pure linseed oil and that would be the most diluted paint possible, of no paint at all, just linseed oil. The two suggestions are contradictory.

___________________________________________________
A,
You put a very thin layer on first. Like brush it on and wipe it all off with a paper towel, but leave a thin film. When that starts to dry, it is nice to paint on. You should put paint everywhere on the canvas. Bare canvas with nothing but oil isn't a good thing,IMO.
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Q.
How much Canada Balsaam to how much oil? Does the canada balsaam act as a stablizer? Canada balsaam is a varnish isn't it? It seems like I have read that varnish dries hard and oil dries flexible, so I can see where it would keep the oil from shriveling up.

____________________________________________________

A.
I use just enough to make it stick to dried oil paint. Too much makes a weaker paint film. I would recomend about 8 parts oil to 1 part canada balsam. See if that suits you. A little more or less won't hurt anything. Some people like to use stand oil and even a bit of terp or spike. Canada balsam is the very best of the resins. It is sap from a tree that is just like a christmas tree. It is so clear that it is used as a glue for microscope slides. It is not a varnish. Technically, it is a terpentine, like venetian terpentine. VT is a cheap version of CB. Strausburg is somewhere in the middle. It smells wonderful, like an xmas tree lot. It will speed up the drying time of your oil also. It doesn't stabilize the mix, it just makes it stickier and adds depth. If you use too much of it, it will still shrivel like all oils. Nothing really prevents the overuse of oil in paint but practice.
____________________________________________________

Q.
I wonder if a little damar varnish would work as well? Or if the oil would be more stable if I added some turpentine. And the mixture would be different depending on whether you were using cheap paints containing lots of oil or Old Holland containing almost none.
___________________________________________________

A.
I'm not a big fan of using dammar in a painting medium. There are other things, like mentioned above that are so much better. I can't see any advantage to using it for anything but as a great final, removable varnish. I've used mastic and it was interesting, but not my cup of tea. I would trust the mastic more as a medium.
Oil rich paints are weak in color, because they have less pigment. You'll have to trust your eyes on that one. I don't use exact formulas or recipes for painting or cooking. You just get the feel for it. There are so many ways to do so many things. Just keep the oil level down. It'll dry faster and better. Try wiping on glazes with a finger and rubbing it in, as opposed to brushing on a soupy, oil rich mix. Experiment.

_________________________________________________





I appreciate any thoughts that anyone might have. Thanks Scott. I will probably go order some Canada Balsaam from Rob.
Also, I would imagine that if you added just one or two drops of Cobalt siccative drier to the oil, it would dry very fast.


What's your hurry? Cobalt dryer is a real crackenator. Strong stuff. I use lead white as a base and things dry fast and safe. Any oil paint on top of lead paint will speed up in the drying dept.
I am not an ala' prima painter, so drying is important to me too.

I buy from Kremer (canada balsam) RH's CB is a little better quality. His ounce is about $15. The liter I got from Kremer was $280. Should last me awhile:)

Scott Methvin
02-06-2002, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by DaveTooner
How about Bleached Linseed Oil? How is that different from stand, refined, etc?

What exactly is bleached oil? I've never seen that. Where did you see it?

You can put it out in the sun and sun bleach it. That is only a temporary thing though. It will revert back to it's original yellow in a short time. Alkali refined is chemically bleached. Stand oil is heat treated and very viscous. Sun thickened is oxidized and sun bleached. Also very viscous. Raw cold pressed is thin and watery. This is good for making paint. I wash most of the yellowing material out of raw cold pressed. It is a very long process and involves some luck. I get an oil that dries well, is watery and clear as canada balsam. I have also filtered RCP through clean charcoal and this works great also. Takes a while and wastes oil, though.

Alkali refined oil is 90% of the oil in oil painting.

DaveTooner
02-06-2002, 09:40 PM
http://www.jerryscatalog.com/lukoilmedble.html

Wayne Gaudon
02-06-2002, 09:47 PM
Scott

.. I should be ok cause I just dampen the canvas with linseed oil and then use a lint free cloth to wipe off any excess and then just paint using the oil as a vehicle for smooth and easy brush strokes.

Very informative, thank your very much for your input.

Scott Methvin
02-06-2002, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by DaveTooner
http://www.jerryscatalog.com/lukoilmedble.html

Hi Dave,

You're right, there it was. Lukas bleached oil medium.
They don't really tell you anything about it do they?

$54.00 for 5 liters. Pretty inexpensive. I suspect a propretary blend. Alkali and ??? They do call it a "medium."

Jerry's has all kinds of mistakes in their ad copy. I would watch out. Many brushes are called red sable kolinski, for example. That would be impossible. Unless it is a proprietary "blend."

Linda Ciallelo
02-07-2002, 11:18 AM
I'm painting on linen bunny glued to masonite that has been double primed with lead primer. I'm having no trouble with drying time, but someone said that linseed oil is a slow drier. My painting is drying in two days which is fine with me.
My paint is not "soupy" , but it slides around easily on the lead primer. I like the way that I can use a clean dry brush to remove some of the paint, allowing the ground to show through. I guess that there would be a difference between using paint that allowed the ground to show through, and removing paint to let the ground show through. I guess I am worrying about using too much oil. I guess that there is no way to know if you are using too much oil until many years pass.
I just dip the very tip of the brush in the oil and slide it over the paint until it feels flexible, then paint with it. After the paint is on the ground it can be moved around at will. When it's right , you leave it alone and it will set in two days. It dries shiney. In the past I painted only with mineral spirits or a mixture of oil, damar, and turps. Neither of those mediums had the flexibilty of the oil. I have ordered some Balsaam and some spike oil from Rob, I already have stand oil.
Scott, I was just looking at your web page. I like the old man playing chess. I read that you use only three colors. What colors do you use?
I guess time and experimentation is the only answer.

Heidi
02-07-2002, 02:15 PM
This is an excellent topic. Everybody is asking the questions I was too shy to ask. I too have been experimenting with mediums and colour (btw Linda, I have been following your processes here and on Rob's board... I've been following the same road... simplifiying my colours, reading, learning. Thanks for all of the great information.) I too, like linseed oil on its own. I guess I want to keep things simple. Maroger's is great, but I like the feel of linseed and workability. I can keep an alla prima going for a couple of days ;) I was thinking of ordering some of doaks sun thickened oil (as mentioned in Rob's mediums video it is very clear). Will it endo up yellowing just as much?

btw Linda... who makes the buff titanium you use? I think that would be an excellent alternative to my white right now. and what primer are you using for your panels. Thanks muchly

Heidi

Scott Methvin
02-07-2002, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Linda Ciallelo
I like the old man playing chess. I read that you use only three colors. What colors do you use?


Thank you Linda,

I use:
Daniel Smith pigment (or grumbacher pre-tested) thalo blue
OH gambooge lake extra yellow
Daniel Smith pigment quinacridone red-magenta
Kremer pigment cremnitz-flake white

I make everything but the yellow. All are transparent.

I have been experimenting with terre verde (OH) and genuine vermillion (Kremer), lately. Love the vermillion.

I use few colors because it's easier for me. I would like to get some real ivory black and try some of that too.

These are pigments that glaze and layer well. They don't always mix that great together when wet. They are as primary as i could find. When layered over dry, they do very well for me.

Linda Ciallelo
02-07-2002, 08:46 PM
Heidi, I bought primer from two different sources and used them both. I Liked the one that I got from "Central New York Art Supply" the most. Central New York art supply has a website but in order to order, you must email them or call them on the phone. I have a catalog(It's a great catalog). You mix the primer with an equal amount of turpentine and add about 18 drops of cobalt siccative drier to the total quart(plus 1 qt. turpentine) of the mixture before painting it on your canvases(panels). Lots of stirring.
The Buff titanium I originally had was from the Georgian line of Daler Rowney, yes, it's cheap paint, lots of oil, but I liked it anyway. I also found some Buff Titanium in Daniel Smith. Today I just received my grays that I ordered from artXpress made by Holbein. I love the Holbein grays. I am particularly fond of the "foundation greenish" and the " foundation umber", which is very similar to my buff titanium. It's little lighter with a hint of pink. Very beautiful and the texture is wonderful. I also like their yellow gray, and their Daveys gray. I liked their paint so much that I immediately ordered some (are you ready?) "French Vermillion". I also ordered naples yellow, raw sienna, rose gray, and ivory white. I already have peach black and charcoal grey . Their green grey looks like green to me.
Scott , I tried your colors originally, way too strong for me. I "could" mix them down, but if I can buy what I need that's fine with me. Anything to save time and proivide security.
I think that Doaks also sells buff titanium also known as "unbleached titanium". Very useful color, I will never be without it.

Einion
02-09-2002, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Linda Ciallelo
Over on Rob's board , of course, I have never heard anyone suggest that one might use just plain linseed oil to dilute your paint. I am afraid to ask what might happen.
Linda, hardly surprising that, considering, is it? The main problem with using too much oil is wrinkling of the paint film, as this quote indicates "Thick... colour layers with a high oil content and little pigment tend to wrinkle. This does not mean than an unsuitable drying oil was used as a binding agent or additive; rather, it is a natural property of these oils that occurs particularly in linseed oil, the best of the drying oils used in panel painting." Many an old master was painted with nothing but pigment, oil and spirits (and a great deal of skill) no matter what certain people would like to believe themselves and convince others of. Recent chemical studies support, time and again, that Doerner and Mayer and many other pundits promoting the use of resin painting mediums were basically deluding themselves. Even anecdotal cleaning/restoration accounts have shown this for centuries if they bothered to refer to them, as the oil layers were often completely insoluble once the varnish was removed, which would not be the case if there was any/much resin in the paint layers. And apart from anything else they were ignoring the simple fact that oil paintings are a great deal more transparent when old so trying to replicate the depth of a 400-year-old Dutch painting in a new work is just silly.

If you care about longevity try to avoid using, or at least minimise, resins in your painting layers. Dammar is great in varnish (possibly still the very best choice) but should be kept there. Resins in the paint layer make it more susceptible to solvents and since paintings should generally be re-varnished every 40 years or so, within the working lifetime of many artists, this is not only a concern for posterity.

As Scott mentions, all oils yellow - secondary yellowing is impossible to avoid and irreversible, unlike primary yellowing which a healthy amount of indirect sunlight can prevent. So if you want the picture to change as little as possible with time you have to bear this in mind and structure the painting accordingly, as skilled painters in the past did. The more pigment you use, the less oil there is to yellow; the more oil there is unprotected by pigment the more your picture will change over time. There was a discussion recently about oiling out here if you want to check for it, unprotected oil on the surface is a potential problem.

BTW most Buff Titaniums are a simple mix of Titanium White, Raw Umber and possibly a little Raw Sienna. Buff Rutile Titanium, the single pigment this mimics, is also available but since the mix is such a close match, and so easy, mix up a bundle, store it in a film canister and save those $$$$.


Scott, FWIW Winsor & Newton's PB15:3 is significantly greener than either DS's or Grumbacher's so would make a better choice for a cyan primary. You do know OH Gamboge Lake Extra is a mix of PY153 and PY3? Since you hand mull have you considered trying PR n/a instead of PR122 or PR209?

Einion

Scott Methvin
02-09-2002, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Einion


Scott, FWIW Winsor & Newton's PB15:3 is significantly greener than either DS's or Grumbacher's so would make a better choice for a cyan primary. You do know OH Gamboge Lake Extra is a mix of PY153 and PY3? Since you hand mull have you considered trying PR n/a instead of PR122 or PR209?

Einion

Hi Enion,

Why would I want a "greener" primary cyan? I try to avoid the reddish types, by using the basic PB15. I have had good results thus far. If you know of a better dry pigment source, that would be great.

(BTW, many giclee-digital printers are moving towards using what they call "royal blue" as their replacement of cyan blue in their printing process. This is to better match ultramarine blue, I guess. Makes no sense to me.)

What is your choice of the perfect neutral transparent yellow? That's what I have been searching for. The OH gambooge has been pretty damn good to me so far.

What are PR n/a and PR122-PR209? My resources on that number system are limited. Where could I find a good listing online?

Thanks.

Einion
02-10-2002, 02:06 PM
Hi Scott, the greener end of the phthalo blue spectrum is closer to true cyan if you want the best CMY triad. Undifferentiated PB15s tend to be at the violet-biased end. Winsor & Newton, like Sennelier and Maimeri, supply dried pigments also, although where you can find them is another question as I have only seen them in <A HREF=http://www.stuartstevenson.co.uk/pages/start.htm>Stuart R. Stevenson's</A> in London. If we could only find out W&N's supplier... There is also of course Phthalocyanine Cyan, PB17, which, although it has marginally lower lightfastness is slightly less staining and has greater saturation than phthalo blue. This should be the absolute best choice judging from the published theoretical data but I remain to be convinced that it will work correctly in practice considering the other two primaries are much farther from the ideals.

The yellow is a tough slot to fill. The darker component of the OH mix, PY153, is Nickel Dioxine Yellow which is really too orange and PY3 is too green-biased to function well in this role alone. Of the other yellows I have tried myself Bismuth Vanadate, PY184, is about the best but is semiopaque, so no use here - I presume you need the yellow to be as transparent as possible. Suitable, reliable, mid-yellows include two benzimidazolones, PY151 and PY154, three arylide yellows, PY74, PY97 and PY128 and another, PY138, but I think the choice comes down to only two in practice as although PY154 is a superb colour reports of its transparency vary (might be fillers added at source) and you don't want to get it and find it's semiopaque. PY138, Quinophthalone Yellow, and Arylide Yellow, PY97 may be the very best mid-yellows with very high chroma, approaching 100%, extremely good lightfastness (both are ASTM I in oils if memory serves). PY97 may have the edge as it should be stronger in mixes, enough to be not easily swamped by PB15, and it is likely to be easier to find. Unfortunately these are both only semitransparent but we use what we can.

Sorry, PR122 is Quinacridone Magenta, PR209 is Quinacridone Red and PR n/a is Quinacridone Carmine (which might be listed as quinacridone pyrrolidone), the colour you use is probably one of the first two. None of these is really spot-on as magenta and would require an ideal yellow to boot anyway, which we don't have. I don't really know what to recommend for this colour position as PR122 mixes the very best violets but dull oranges, while PR209 is probably too warm, as PR n/a might also be, but it is most transparent of these three. PV19 gamma, the rose form, is definitely worth a look if you haven't tried it but is not as transparent as the others

I have not been able to find a one-stop-shop for pigment lists online unfortunately (especially covering modern pigments) but <A HREF=http://webexhibits.org/pigments/index.html>Pigments Through The Ages</A>, will be good when they're done. And if the StudioMara database is ever completed (virtually every colour, in all media, from everyone, is listed) it will be the definitive guide but so far the author won't publish the names of the makers except where they have given approval, which is about 1% so far!

The problem of accurate colour-matching as you mention with giclee prints is one I have long dispaired of, even in good high-end printed stuff. The only thing to do really to just accept it as being limited: 4-colour process is never going to match oranges, deep blues, violets and bright greens in practice (and the lightfastness usually sucks), which we have to learn to live with.

Hope it helps,
Einion

Linda Ciallelo
02-10-2002, 02:25 PM
Einion what is PW6? That is what my buff titanium has on the label. I could use the paint right straight from the tube if I bought the cheaper paints, because they have more oil in them. What do you use for medium and with what brand of paint? And why would I want to mix up the color for myself to save a couple bucks? I like having a starting base of values that I can securely build my colors around.
This painting is only two days old and I am not finished with the teapot. I am waiting for it to dry so I can work on it further, but the gray shades in the table top and the white stripes of the fabric are Holbeins "foundation greenish" and Holbeins "foundation umber". I find that using these premixed grays for whites is perfect for this kind of lighting effects.

Scott Methvin
02-11-2002, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by Einion
There is also of course Phthalocyanine Cyan, PB17, which, although it has marginally lower lightfastness is slightly less staining and has greater saturation than phthalo blue. This should be the absolute best choice judging from the published theoretical data but I remain to be convinced that it will work correctly in practice considering the other two primaries are much farther from the ideals.

Hope it helps,
Einion

Thanks for all the interesting info! I am learning as I go.

Einion
02-13-2002, 08:31 PM
Linda, first off, very nice painting. PW6 is the real stuff, a form of rutile titanium dioxide in its buff form related to the white we all know and love.

We just have a difference in philosophy, as you will see from my comments elsewhere I prefer to have as limited a palette as possible that mixes the widest gamut of colours and to mix colours as much as possible - I didn't use a green for years. Since a light buff colour is so easy I just wouldn't buy it, ditto for greys and the more esoteric earth colours that can be approached using more common ones. I also use neutrals quite a bit, preferring to mix them on the palette as needed and if I wanted a supply of a colour I would expect to use a lot of (like the neutral grey I often mix from Titanium White, Mars Black and Raw Umber) I would just mix more and store it in a film canister. By coincidence I was actually thinking of doing this just the other day for a few basic convenience colours that could be easily modified to suit varied conditions.


You're welcome Scott, glad to be of help.

Einion