After Sargent 1

[MichaelRH]

Cindy, that IS..a great little book..have not purchased it..but studied it intently at Barnes and Nobel!!
cindy..I have been on the computer quite a long time this morning, and want to return to spend more time looking at your drawings..hope you will excuse me at the moment. (just a quick note for now..you have done a very good job of placement..limbs, torso, etc..now as you sketch and draw (depending on the medium) you can begin to think about line and how to convey mass with "marks", blending etc. Notice how on sargent's drawing..he has achieve a wonderful quality of line, balanced with very subtle indications of form..with blending and rubbing. Hope to catch you soon, after I've gotten some rest. You will have to tell me more about how these drawings felt to you????
Michael

[cagathoc]

Michael,

This figure was very difficult for me to draw. The only thing I felt while drawing it was frustration because what I was thinking wasn't showing up on the page.

I see exactly what you are talking about when you describe Sargent's line quality and shading. I am so awful at this that I almost always sketch directly in paint to avoid the issue all together!

I was trying to copy a complicated pose here - nothing more. Not too much fun.


**** Now Sargent's drawing that's another story. When I saw this drawing (my second favorite in the book), I thought WOW! What an amazing combination of vulnerability and strength in one person. How beautiful and trusting he looks. Well, you get the idea ...


Do you think I would still fit in here in the drawing forum if I submitted my sketches in watercolor like I'm used to doing? I mean you can DRAW in paint - there's a difference btn painting in watercolor and sketching/drawing in watercolor... Or maybe you could give me some tips on shading and smudging? no art school you know http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif
------------------
Cindy Agathocleous

"What if imagination and art are not, as many of us might think, the frosting on life, but the fountainhead of human experience?" - Rollo May from The Courage to Create



[This message has been edited by cagathoc (edited April 10, 2000).]

[cagathoc]

Michael,

This is how I feel about the Sargent drawing:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/User/watersarg.JPG


Now is this a drawing in watercolor or a watercolor painting?

p.s. this image is cropped by the scanner - so no comments on composition! http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif i.e. Milt: he is not really squeezed into a rectangle!


------------------
Cindy Agathocleous

"What if imagination and art are not, as many of us might think, the frosting on life, but the fountainhead of human experience?" - Rollo May from The Courage to Create

[This message has been edited by cagathoc (edited April 10, 2000).]

[cagathoc]

I got a great book yesterday called: John Singer Sargent The Male Nudes. Here are a couple of studies after Sargent from the book: (original is on bottom)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/User/sar1.JPG

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/User/sargentorig1.JPG



[This message has been edited by cagathoc (edited April 10, 2000).]

[MichaelRH]

Cindy..I'm still looking for a good photo..but anyone else can post one. Not sure how to answer your question. Your watercolor work and how you want to develope it further--is something you will have to decide. Your work is beautiful in its simplicity..and spontaneity. How far you want to take either a realistic approach or an expressive approach..will show up the more work you do. I am not familiar with many watercolor figure artist, but one name comes to mind..(I have one of his books) Charles Reid...I would love for you (if you haven't already) to see his work. (Your work reminded me of his). If you want..I can scan a couple of his images..and send them to you via your email. I think it was either Carol or Carly that said they were familiar with his work.
Maybe milt can comment more..on how one finds his or her direction..and how one begins to develope his/her talents..to a point where the WAY they express themselves is from a position of real power..and command of their means of expression. Without art classes..and some art school...for most of us...gaining that confidence..control..and accomplishment..is a lot of hard work..and it takes a LOT of time. Art instructors can help us find our way quicker..and classes...well, there is a lot to gain. I learned more at Art Center in two terms than I did in about 4 years prior to my attending classes there. Wetcanvas is filling an important gap..for many people. What the talented group of people are doing is very beneficial..and the results can be seen with each new post. (Notice, I'm not getting into the expense of years of art school..or classroom instruction!!!!)

[cagathoc]

Originally posted by MichaelRH:
how one finds his or her direction..and how one begins to develope his/her talents..to a point where the WAY they express themselves is from a position of real power..and command of their means of expression.


Michael,

I do know who Charles Reid is and have two of his books! I enjoy his work very much. I also like Arnie Westerman - his work is more realistic though. He is also a watercolorist.


Re: your quote above: You are so right! This is exactly what I struggle with and I am a bit clueless although each day I learn a bit more about what I want to accomplish.

Thanks!


cindy


[This message has been edited by cagathoc (edited April 11, 2000).]

[cagathoc]

Ok, I tried again. This time with pencils (yuk!) - hb, 2b, and 5b and a white conte crayon. I think it's a bit better than the first in charcoal. Although the lower body is more accurate than the upper (maybe I got tired or showed my preferences... http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif)


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/User/pensarg.JPG
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/User/sargentorig1.JPG


cindy



[This message has been edited by cagathoc (edited April 11, 2000).]

[MichaelRH]

(Your watercolor..I like how you FEEL about Sargent's drawing!!!)

Your comments about what you felt when you saw his work..indicate to me..that you really have a great sensitivity Cindy..and..your FRUSTRATION is good..another healthy quality..it means you will work!! toward a certain level of accomplishment..(More power to you C!!!).
The reasons you list for even attempting this pose..are meaningful..don't avoid..just practice sketching and drawing. Your watercolor work is you..and how you interpret the Sargent drawings is via watercolor. Now..if you do a very VERY lightly drawn sketch with a suitable pencil (something that won't smear..and can give you a light line)..paint into the brief sketch. Again..it is not critical that you draw first..your drawing with watercolor works..it will just depend on you..which way you want to go how YOU will make your statement. It does not matter in the least if you call it a watercolor drawing or painting. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif
Now..just so you know..I love this dialog..(it goes both ways)..one last thing..you may want to take an area of the figure..and develope it with watercolor..
Oh..one more comment..see the shadow under the raised leg, just below the back of the knee? You saw that the darkest part of the shadow was NOT at the edge of the leg. This makes the volume of that area work, the indication that the leg turns..the only difference here is that Sargent's values are a little closer in range..your over all drawing is "harsher", but your drawings are BETTER than MY early life-drawing drawings.
Have a great day (((Cindy))) Michael

[This message has been edited by MichaelRH (edited April 11, 2000).]

[cagathoc]

Michael,

I would like to develope the watercolor drawings more also. How though? Do I try to include more details? Try to include a greater range of values and shapes?


When are you going to post the first photo project for our drwing club? http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


{{{Michael}}} thanks for the tips!


cindy

[MichaelRH]

wouldn't ya know..it is THREE TEN AM!!..I've been posting in the Art-society..debate..something something forum. VERY tired..but not TOO tired to tell you that I LIKE your last study. They are both good..but both so different as you well know. I am not much good tonight..very tired..but will be back painting...and posting tomorrow. I see we have our first photo..I'll give it a go. (More darks than anything..but I suppose we could work from it..??) Will go and look at it again (the photo) glad Kimber posted one!!

[This message has been edited by MichaelRH (edited April 12, 2000).]

[cagathoc]

{{{Michael}}} What the heck are you doing up at 3am??? http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/frown.gif

cindy

[MichaelRH]

Cindy..worked a bit later than usual..and just HAD!! to check Wetcanvas messages and posts when I arrived home. I will try to get something going with Kim's photo..by sunday..we have to make a quick trip down to New Mexico this weekend..driving. Will be stopping into the Cafe on and off regularly over the next couple days. (we will be leaving friday morning early). Good luck with your drawing! Talk with you soon.

[tony]

Hi Cindy, Interesting studies. I'd say you're on the right track. There was some advice given on a previous thread by one of the members. He said something like, "Draw as much as you can, do it fast, and do it again and again."

I have a couple of comments for you.
1. on line quality: When you look at Sargent's drawing, you should notice the position of the light source. It's coming from top, so all of the edges on the top of the body (chest, biceps, top of legs) are thinner and lighter. The contours that are in shade (the edge of body and floor, triceps, back of leg) are darker and thicker.

2. on color: Same principle as no.1. Find your light source. The hard and fast rule is, surfaces that are subject to the light source will be lighter and have warm (or warmer) tones (oranges). Surfaces in shade will be darker and have cool (or cooler) tones (blues). Notice that blue and orange are complimentary colors. This basically means that you can apply this principle to red/green, and yellow/purple. Be careful of mixing. You'll end up with "puke" gray. You can get very in depth with color theory, and its subject to many debates.

3. on technique: I always thought that rubbing to get tones is one of the hardest techniques to master. It always made my drawings look muddled. Try a few drawings without rubbing and see how you like it.

Ok. Hope this helps.

[cagathoc]

Thanks Tony! Great advice!


cindy