Lightfastness in NuPastel, others

[HarvestMoon]

Many months ago there was a thread by someone who had done several lightfast tests for pastels- and in a matter of a few days of direct sunlight the NuPastels had faded to white. I ditched my NuPastels (to Sooz LOL) but have found lots of professional, high dollar artists still use them. Have any of you done any studies? What do you think about using them in works to sell? I also wonder about the lightfastness in things like polychromes, etc. The only one I am sure is really good is Mt. Visions, since he lists the lightfastness. Does anyone know about Giraults for example or Great American Artworks, Ludwigs?? I would like to see results of a through test of these, and wonder why folks are using the NuPastels if they may fade so quickly....I know a lot of folks use these for the 'bottom' layer, then put soft pastels over it, but I tend to use the same pastels throughout... I have actually lost a lot of sleep over this over many months- just wondering about it- not for my work, since I don't think I will ever really be a commercial artist- but for others.... I should do my own test- now the worst of summer is over though and I never got around to it. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[PeggyB]

You can do your own tests any time of year. It may take longer on clouded days, but the UV is still there, and in a way would be a more realistic test for your area. You can also write to the various manufacturers, and ask them directly. I'm not positive, but I think Dakota Pastel Art may have the answer for you too right on their website. You may or may not get satisfactory responses.

Rembrandt has a color chart that tells of the lightfastness of each of their pastel colors as does their Carre line of hard pastels. Sennelier and Schmincke color charts also detail the lightfastness. You can get color charts of most of the major pastels from Dakota Pastel Art. It has been my experience in the past, that price may equal lightfastness - the more expensive pastels are more lightfast, but not always so I'm afraid you'll just have to do the homework if this is bothersome to you. My advise is for you to use the best you can, and then don't stress too much after that. Pastel is still the most archival of all mediums. All have there negative and postitive aspects.

Once you've done your homework, frame to protect it the best you can. Use UV screening glass, and advise your clients about not placing any artwork where the sun can shine directly on it. Or if that isn't financially an option, let the client decide. You've used the best products you can, and you've advised your client. After that it is out of your hands.

Peggy

[HarvestMoon]

Peggy- many thanks- I had no idea that pastel was the most archival of all mediums- I would have thought it was oil (although have heard of white roses van gough did that were really painted in pink).... we have extreme sun problems at my house- the view was to the west- summer is about 9 months of the year- and temps over 100 frequently. My most loved picture, a gift from years ago, sadly is perhaps beyond repair- a pastel of a cougar- most of which is at the bottom of the frame. I have carefully kept that one at least out of the sun... have had huge damage to books and pictures though from the sun.

[Bringer]

Hi,

an example :

http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/pigmt9.html

Regards,

José

[kkelly]

Speaking very generally the colors that one has to watch for most in lightfastness are the red-yellows-purples. I think that all of the "above student grade" pastel manufacturers are using lightfast pigment. In the past Sennelier has used some dicey pigments but I think- and hope- they have reformulated those colors. The best pigments for lightfastness in the red and yellow range are the cadmiums- which also at one time had their own issues. Modern processing has changed this I am told, not being a chemist I'm not sure how, but something to do with no longer being water soluable and therefore not breaking down in the body.
The advances in the synthetic pigments industry has produced some wonderful lightfast pigments- now if they were only cheaper......
Karl

[JamieWG]

In the past Sennelier has used some dicey pigments but I think- and hope- they have reformulated those colors.
Karl

I too have been told by a reliable source that Sennelier has reformulated and that they now fare quite well in lightfastness testing. Unison pastels have also done well in lightfastness testing. Nupastels are notoriously fugitive. I love to play with them...but for "serious" pieces, I'd never use them past the underpainting stage, and likely not even then. I'm very glad that pastel companies are starting to get serious about lightfastness issues. Although some oil painters are still using fugitive alizarin crimson, at least they now KNOW if they are doing so; the tubes are marked as such. Pastel artists are entitled to the same information, and so are the buyers!

Jamie

[HarvestMoon]

thank you everyone for all the helpful info- prismacolor also makes colored pencils, that i expected to be artist grade, and were supposed to be, but now they are coming out with a 'lightfast line' of colored pencils. i have always liked the caran d'ache ones far better anyway, but after hearing about the nupastels don't really want to buy anything made by the company- they now have oils and watercolors too....but then none of my art has been terribly serious either- but they should label their things student grade and charge such like the other guys do if that is the case-

donna- yes, that is what i was looking for....

[Khadres]

I do know that Polychromos at least lists it's lightfastness codes on its color chart
The worst of their line is a pale yellow and is classed as "acceptable". If I recall correctly, everything else was rated higher....far better than the NuPastel line which is considered by retailers to be a "student grade" hard pastel. For soft pastels, I think most all of the major, "trusted" brands have pretty good track records. There's always the odd color that gives makers fits, such as mauves and light yellows, but even those are fairly reliable in most major brands.

Personally, my own experience has shown me that NuPastels are not that reliable, nor are a few shades of Canson colored MiTientes. Having seen color changes in both products, I would not consider either of them truly archival. On the other hand, one has to balance the absolute achivability of something like MiTientes with the chances of it making a real difference to the work in hand. The fading I saw in the dark brown shades, for instance, wouldn't make a whole lot of difference if your pastel paintings completely cover the paper surface...in fact, covering the surface with pastel pigment might actually prevent the fading problem and make the question moot. Even if the painting left areas of exposed paper, fading from a very dark brown to a more medium tone might not ruin the overall effect. About the best I can do is choose the most stable and reliable brands of art materials available within reason and go from there.

[DLJohnson]

Glad that was it Linda.

Here are some very recent postings

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3923566#post3923566

Very interesting reading. I would love to drop by his studio and see his tests.

Donna

[HarvestMoon]

I guess this just bugs me because I hear of big name artists who do sell their work for a lot- and a pile of local artists who sell their work for hundreds, who use the nupastels. It seems like the fading problem will give 'pastel' artwork from this era a bad name due to their use. I recently found one of my very favorite pastel big name heros used them in major works, and I was surprised- but have not seen them labeled student grade either.... I do think I will do my own tests next summer when I need to block off the west windows anyway. My indoor birds need the light in the winter months.

[chewie]

you don't have to block off the windows, just put several pastels onto pieces of good paper, block off half the strip of color, and tape in the window. i did this, and i was shocked at how fast nupastels faded. (i used similar colors, but all the brands) i did this after a phone conversation with craig, the guy from dakota. i mentioned that i had some faber hard pastels, but didn't like them as well as nupastels, and let the kids play with them. he about choked, told me of the nupastels issues, and to give those to the kids, keeping the fabors for myself! the gold-yellows were the worst, along with pinky-purpley colors, and some reds. visions did fantastic, as did most of the other 'major' brands, esp. unison. art spectrum also did well for me. but i found that what dakota pastels had told me in the first place, so i plan to just go with what they say!! as for my nupastels and carre's, i use those when i teach kids, or if someone wants to borrow.

[HarvestMoon]

Chewie- this made me laugh....well, I sent the nupastels to sooz's daughter, not to sooz, so all is well.... will ask my parrot if i can borrow his window though- he is very opinionated (wonder where he got that from LOL). Love your picture of you on the horse...

[Piper Ballou]

I have never heard that nupastels fade like this...wow...they have been my work horse, that is if they are in direct sunlight, correct? I will have to do a test of these for sure now
piper

[chewie]

you may wish to toss them! or rather, like i did and purples too--use them for kids!! i keep the box of the 'flimsy' pastels in my car at all times, and i don't treat them well!! but nice to have some colors on hand when i find myself stuck waiting somewhere! in lieu of those nupastels, i switched to the faber-castell ones, like the guy at dakota pastels told me to. they did great in my window test, too. i find them not as smooth, but for the comfort in knowing i am using a better pastel, i've made myself change. it was kinda irritating at first, when i'd reach for that certain stick, but you get over it!! i've also gotten a fair assortment of art spectrum that also help out where i used to employ nupastels. so yupper, toss em out!!

and thanks for the kind words about my picture!! that is my all time fav. horse, my mare sugarfoot. she has all 4 white feet, but then goes into striping from the knee to her belly. and is fairly sassy!! she's the only one we raised from a mare, of which my oldest daughter still rides. i've ridden alot of horses, but this one somehow fits me perfect, sas and all!!

[HarvestMoon]

Well, perhaps don't toss them out yet- got this email from Greg Biolchini
when I asked about a painting where he had used some Nu-Pastels- and he sure knows his stuff..... as does Karl Kelly, who also said most colors were not that bad-

I've got good new about Nu-Pastels. Only the pretty pinks and a few purples are fugitive. These same pigments fade in other brands as well. It is my experience that the other colors in the Nu-Pastel sets are all quite permanent. If you decide to try Nu-Pastels, I suggest placing the set where it is exposed to direct sunlight for a few hours a day. After two weeks, flip them over and don't use the faded ones. None of the Mount Vision pastels fade and they cost less than comparable top quality pastels. For the last three years, I have used Mount Vision for nearly all my pastel work. for this particular piece, I used Nu-Pastel and Rembrandt hard pastels. these hard pastels are especiall suited for working on rough ersta sandpaper. Thanks again, Greg Biolchini

[scall0way]

Well that it nice from Greg. I confess that I really like NuPastels. I have tried various other brands - Sennelier, Unison, Rembrant - but I don't like any of them the way I love my NuPastels.

[scall0way]

Well that it nice from Greg. I confess that I really like NuPastels. I have tried various other brands - Sennelier, Unison, Rembrant - but I don't like any of them the way I love my NuPastels.

[Khadres]

My experience showed that NuPastel yellows were very fugitive as well. NOT the ones to use for your fave daffodil opus! No reason you can't just go through and clean out the pinky purplesn yellows and leave the rest...fill in the blanks with polychromos...

I've never been that attached to NuPastels, but I know lots of folks are. Who knows? Maybe the company will wise up and reformulate someday.

[Laura Shelley]

It's useful to know that Nupastels were originally formulated for commercial artists, and were meant for color mock-ups (before the days of fancy color markers) and art for reproduction, not for fine art. But if it exists, artists WILL use it, including pros who sell their work for a lot of money. Not everyone's a pigment wonk!

I did some lightfastness tests on Nupastels a couple of years ago and got similar results--pinks and purples bad, earth colors no problem. There are similar concerns with some colors in my Pitt pastel pencils. I'm doing portrait and landscape commissions and I would rather my work didn't fade away on my clients' walls. So I use my Nupastels mostly for sketches, block-ins and tiny details, and tend to avoid the REALLY bad ones entirely.

During my entire time in school getting an art degree, I think I heard only one or two comments from professors about lightfastness concerns--it's something I've had to look up and test on my own. This was long enough ago that my student tubes of oil paint didn't have lightfastness ratings on the labels, and sometimes didn't even identify the pigments. Maybe things have improved in art programs since then, but I'm not confident! So even trained artists may have NO clue that the materials they are using may be inferior.

Laura

[HarvestMoon]

Laura- that is really interesting, and helpful. And makes me wish I had followed my heart, instead of my ex-teacher's heart- and gotten formal training in art school! How I envied the artist with their art bins.... I did take a class in Art History, as an elective, and really enjoyed it- but wish I had formal training!

[chewie]

i too wish for that!! but, look around, there are plenty of good artists around who went to school but dropped out for various reasons. or like harley brown, was kicked out, and they still 'made' it!! so, i console myself with that, and try to get to a good workshop at least once a year. and just think, at school you get whatever teacher is hired by who-knows, this way its ME who chooses the teacher!! :) and its way cheaper too!!

[HarvestMoon]

It is really interesting to know the history of the NuPastel... I used to hand-draw contour maps after interpreting data, and a huge innovation, was when they came out with ERASABLE colored pencils- this was wonderful, because we worked on paper copies of seismic data, and erasing Prismacolor with an electric eraser to change the interpretation usually left a mess- now it seems really funny and ancient since it is all done on computers. And yes, it is nicer than formal school to be able to pick your teachers, and have them for a short spell if you would like to- had never thought of it like that. I love graphic art, and art that Sooz for example has done with the computer, but it would be sad if we ever got to the point where it was all done on computer- there is something about hand drawing and painting that is very meditative and enjoyable.

[LDianeJohnson]

While it's true that soft pastel has the best lightfastness and longevity of all pigments (aside from using pure pigment applied directly with no binder at all), the surface it is painted on makes a huge difference in how long the paint will hold up. That is a subject for another thread but needed to be mentioned.

NuPastel is good for practice and detail work as it has more binder to make it harder. However, because it has far less true pigment than regular soft pastels is more fugitive overall.

There are several things you can do that folks have already mentioned:

• test the pastels yourself
• talk to the pastel manufacturer(s)
• talk to experts in the area of paint pigments

Ask:

• each company how much pure pigment is used as compared to fillers and binders
• what exact pigments they use for whatever colors you are most concerned about
• which colors in their own line are most fugitive and remove them from your set
• any other q's or concerns you may have

All the Best,
Diane

[LDianeJohnson]

P.S.

Two of our own resident experts, Terry Ludwig who makes pastels and Don Jusko our pigment guru would be a great place to start with your Qs.

D.

[PeggyB]

[quote=Virgil Elliott]Peggy,

I'm sorry, but that statement is not true at all, and never has been. Believe it on faith, or run your own tests and gain real knowledge. There are pastels that are highly lightfast, but the only way to know for certain which ones they are is to test them, color by color. [quote]

Virgil - my statement was too broad, and for that I apologize if there was any misunderstanding. Of course you are right in that not all pastels are lightfast, but as you stated many of them are highly lightfast. The same nonlightfast pigments used in other mediums are also not lightfast, and I'd bet if one tests them that would also become apparent. Watercolor and pastel need climate control/low light to avoid fading, and oil pastels, oils, acrylic, etc need climate control to avoid cracking/crazing, melting, or fading/darkening. Paper yellows and fades, canvas rots. There are examples of past masters using whatever was at hand, and years later the work they did is slowly being destroyed or in need of serious restoration (see Jackson Pollack for example).

All any artist can do is educate themselves regarding the use, durability, and care of their chosen medium, and use the best products they can afford. Then they need to carefully frame it in an archival manner if they want to preserve the work as long as possible. I know that's not in the average person's pocketbook to do, and why I suggest they discuss with their clients the options for framing. Education of the client on the proper care of artwork is part of their responsibilty because I believe all mediums will eventually show signs of age. All I know is that my pastels have exceeded the watercolor, acrylic and oil paintings I did in the "test of time".

I'm not making a statement against any medium. They all have their advantages and disadvantages so I hope no one gets their knickers in a bunch over this issue.

Peggy

[bluefish]

ASTM
Pastel materials, both pigments and surfaces, need to be tested in 'lab' conditions by a set of standards that are technically approved by recognized authorities in the pastel industry, both vendors and consumers. Home testing means nothing - prior to ASTM getting involved in pigment testing, the watercolor and acrylic manufacturers sold us anything we would buy but when the testing started, fugitive colors were removed from the market and a new line of watercolors and acrylics has/is being introduced! ASTM is a recognized testing authority by NASA, the plastics industry,etc. We need them to tell us that 'aluminum oxide' on 100% cotton rag paper will last 100 years or that 'thalo blue' used as a pastel pigment will have a hundred year life! But don't let it up to the manufacturers only, there has to be knowledgable product users on this ASTM committee! No long term testing is absolutely accurate but Industry has stated that ASTM is the best we have and therefore, we as pastel consumers should campaign for the best. If I do a pastel painting and the Metropolitan Museum of Art purchases it for there permanent collection, it better last 100 years - I give no refunds!

[JamieWG]

Virgil, I am so happy that you're here on WC. We really do need experts in the field to point us in the right direction with regard to lightfastness issues.

I've always understood that pastel is one of the most vulnerable mediums to fading. Even though it is almost pure pigment in its artist quality state, it has no binder for protection. Like watercolor, pigments in pastel are therefore more prone to fading than in, say, oils, which do receive some protection from the oil binder. Many pigments, such as dioxozine, have unacceptable lightfastness in watercolor, but with the addition of the oil binder, are fine in oil paints.

Jamie

[Virgil Elliott]

ASTM
Pastel materials, both pigments and surfaces, need to be tested in 'lab' conditions by a set of standards that are technically approved by recognized authorities in the pastel industry, both vendors and consumers. Home testing means nothing - prior to ASTM getting involved in pigment testing, the watercolor and acrylic manufacturers sold us anything we would buy but when the testing started, fugitive colors were removed from the market and a new line of watercolors and acrylics has/is being introduced! ASTM is a recognized testing authority by NASA, the plastics industry,etc. We need them to tell us that 'aluminum oxide' on 100% cotton rag paper will last 100 years or that 'thalo blue' used as a pastel pigment will have a hundred year life! But don't let it up to the manufacturers only, there has to be knowledgable product users on this ASTM committee! No long term testing is absolutely accurate but Industry has stated that ASTM is the best we have and therefore, we as pastel consumers should campaign for the best. If I do a pastel painting and the Metropolitan Museum of Art purchases it for there permanent collection, it better last 100 years - I give no refunds!


Bluefish,

You're quite right, the quality of all the products you mentioned improved once there was an ASTM standard for them, and that's what we're shooting for with pastels now. We're currently hashing out the particulars of a test method that we hope will allow reproducible as well as accurate results. You are also correct that the subcommittee should include knowledgeable consumers, and it does. There are more artists on the subcommittee than there are manufacturers' representatives from companies who make pastels. Some of those artists are also educators, museum conservators, or writers, etc., none of whom are insensitive or disrespectful of artists' concerns as consumers of the products in question. We welcome the participation of concerned individual artists and representatives of artists' organizations. Our next meeting will be on January 23rd, 2006, at the Embassy Suites hotel in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Anyone who would like to attend can e-mail me privately for more information. My e-mail address is: virgilelliott@comcast.net.

Virgil Elliott

[bluefish]

Virgil: It appears that you and the esteemed members of the committee will do a wonderful job of developing ASTM 'long term material testing(LTMS) standards' for the pastel industry. LTMS are very time consuming and expensive - I'm sure once developed, the manufacturers will reluctantly follow them and pass the cost back to us in the form of increased product cost. Fine, our industry is in it for the long term and we need materials that will withstand the test of time. A few considerations to take to your meeting, if you would care to:

As most of the manufacturers will comply, my concern is the little individual who makes up a batch of pastels in the garage, utilizing mostly extenders and little pigment or uses yesterdays newspaper,coats it with wood glue and beach sand and sells it on the internet as the 'hottest pastel paper' in town! Will the 'pastel societies' issue "Good Housekeeping Seals of Approval...eh, lets make that "Good Pastel Society Seal of Approval"? Do we, as consumers, only purchase products with a ASTM 8267 code on them? And lastly, since Purples, Deborah, You nor I have our own testing lab, how do we know all the materials are meeting the standard - is there any thought of having an independent lab do some quality control checks to see if the standard is being met? Am I cynical? - let's just say I've "been there, done that" - and I love making art, especially pastel work. Keep up the good work, the industry needs your talents.

[Virgil Elliott]

Bluefish,

There will always be cheap products on the market for people who are more concerned with cost than quality. ASTM standards are voluntary, and each manufacturer is free to choose to recognize the standard and make products that meet it or not. The purpose of ASTM lightfastness ratings is to help the consumers know what they are buying. I doubt there will be any significant effect on prices due to the enactment of an ASTM standard, but if better products are the result, surely it will be worth a bit more for those artists who care more about quality than about saving money. The cheap stuff will still be there for the folks who want it. We'll just have a better idea which is which when we have a standard.

What the pastel societies choose to promote is up to them, but of course their credibility would be called into question if they were to make a habit of misrepresenting the truth. The best thing to do is to play it straight, because the truth comes to light sooner or later, and tends to bite those hardest who have taken the greatest liberties with it.

Virgil Elliott