View Full Version : Basic 101: Class 30 - Pen & Ink Stipple technique

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Troy Rochford
11-21-2005, 12:56 AM
Basic 101: Class 30
When BEES Attack???

Nah, let's just stick with ink for now. We will return to landscaping and the creatures that you may encounter while playing in the bushes and trees around your home, but the focus of this particular class will be at once broad and specific.

"How?" you ask? Well, it will be broad in the sense that I want you guys to have fun and have complete control over your subject matter when it comes time to put pen to paper. It will be specific in the sense that ONLY one technique is to be used for your entire drawing. And that one technique will be....

:eek: :eek: THE DREADED STIPPLE TECHNIQUE!!! :eek: :eek:

Now, most of you are familiar with stippling, or pointillism, as it were, so it requires no big explanation. The bottom line is that with this technique there is no linework whatsoever. Everything is comprised of dots. Now, that's not to say that this technique cannot be combined with others, but for the purpose of this lesson, consider such a combination absolute taboo.

Stippling can be used to produce both loose, rather heavily textured works, and extremely fine, high-detail pieces of near photographic quality. The means by which the artist controls the outcome are generally limited to two: nib size and pacing. It is important to understand that, whatever the desired outcome in terms of how loose and sketchy or highly realistic the work may be stylistically, the key to value transitions with this technique is the placement of dots in proximity to other dots. Simply put, if you draw a one inch square and place fifty dots inside of it, you will have a light value. Add fifty more dots to that, and you will have a noticeably darker value. As you add more dots, thus leaving less and less space between dots, your value becomes darker. Thus, the smaller the nib used in a stippling work, the more subtle the value transitions that can be achieved. If done in a sensible manner, a fine nib can also be used adjacent to a large nib to effectively create bold tonal and/or textural contrasts within a composition. As most of you do not have complete sets of technical pens at this point, I won't dwell on that point any further.

Working at the appropriate pace for your desired result is also important. Common sense applies in this area. The faster you work, the more likely you are to produce "dots" that are more like "dashes." This is often an effective means of establishing textural contrast between subjects, and in some cases would even be encouraged in order to more closely mimic the texture of the subject being rendered.

However, producing dots that are more like dashes is also a quick way to completely ruin a stippling piece. You must pay attention to your subject and make logical choices as to how each area should be rendered.

Leading up to our foray into pen and ink in this program, I asked that you each make an effort to acquire at least one technical pen, preferably a rapidograph, with a nib size of .30. This is where it really becomes necessary that you have this in order to get the desired result. A felt tip, ball point, or some other kind of pen simply is not going to produce the consistency of marks that you want in order to produce an effective stippling work. So...if you have not picked up a pen of this type, please do yourself a favor and GET one!!! It does not necessarily have to be an expensive rapidograph, but at least get one of those micron pens for a couple of dollars.

Considering the tedious nature of this technique, I was unable to prepare a demo for this class, but I will include scans here of a portrait that I did two years ago. I think this is actually a great example for the class, because it so happens that the entire thing was done with a .30 nib, and it was very hastily done. I could have used much smaller pens and spent twice as much time on this, but I got the point across effectively with a larger nib in much less time. In other words, this illustrates my point that you do not necessarily have to make every single dot perfect on the page in order to produce an effective portrait. Up close this looks sloppy as hell, but hanging on the wall it looks just fine.

Full view:




Now, in order to see an example of a much more precise, methodical stippling work, check out the following piece recently completed by our very own Ron Guthrie. For those who do not know, Ron is a very well known, accomplished pen and ink artist who specializes in stippling work. I would encourage you to visit his website as well, as there is some amazing work to be seen.

Ron's Ice Skating and Stippling Extravaganza!!! (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306913)


Draw a picture, whatever you like, but use nothing but dots to comprise the entire picture. As always, I want you to post your reference to help me, you, and your peers better judge your progress. Like class 29, this will be a three week class, so you have plenty of time. Happy inking! :clap:

11-21-2005, 05:12 AM
Stippling...interesting piece Troy, thank you. :) And yes very labour intensive! Ron's work is amazing isn't it? I don't know if I'd have the patience to complete something large and complex like he has done, but I think you get into the rhythm of it and it probably moves along slowly.

I am heading to Winnipeg on business tomorrow and not back til Friday night. I'll find a reference today and work on this on my plane trips and airport waits. I have a reference in mind and I'll show it to you now to get your input as I think it may be a bit too ambitious for a first stippling. Its an old abandoned house that I came across last year near Brigus in Newfoundland. What do you think? Too complicated?


Mary Woodul
11-21-2005, 07:31 AM
Nice class Troy, and for this I guess we will need the three weeks. :)

11-21-2005, 07:55 AM
This will be interesting. :)

11-21-2005, 09:03 AM
Stippling!....my favorite ink technique!! Good choice Troy! :clap:

Since this is a 3 week class I would start with 1 or 2 smaller pieces (nothing more than 4 or 5 inches) just so you can get used to this technique and keep the subject matter SIMPLE!

I would also recommend using the smallest tip possible....the smaller the tip the more realistic detail you can accomplish. Because this is a time consumming technique, you should also take a break about every 30 minutes just to step back and see what you've done and to give your hand and eyes a rest. If you go too long all the dots seem to blend together and you can lose the perspective of the drawing.

PS: here's a TIP...try NOT to dot in straight lines!it will show up in your work....use random diamond or circle type patterns

Murray :cool:

11-21-2005, 09:20 AM
Scrap that first reference image. Wayyyyyyyyy too ambitious! Goes to show what my brain is like at 6am without caffeine!! :) I'll find something simple to start with.

Cathie Jones
11-21-2005, 09:29 AM
Glad we get three weeks to do this. I have newspaper work this week, plus Thanksgiving Thursday, and we'll be out of town Friday through Monday. AND I have an on-line class that has to be finished within three weeks.

Sounds like I better choose a very simple ref, huh??

Fireman's kid
11-21-2005, 11:22 AM
I haven't finished my tree yet, but I will be thinking of a nice small and easy reference for stippling. Hope to have time to do a second more complex reference, but definitely will start small. :)

Troy Rochford
11-21-2005, 11:57 AM
Jeanette I dont think there is anything too ambitious about your reference. Murray's suggestion of starting small is of course valid, but he is making the suggestion as a practical matter - starting small until you get used to the technique. If you feel that you have a sufficient grasp on the technique conceptually, then go ahead and do this one.

Also - as I mentioned in the class intro, and Murray reiterated, the smaller the nib size used, the more subtle your value transitions, and thus the higher the level of realism. If you happen to have the smaller nibs, you are certainly free to use them. I wrote the class with the idea in mind that some of you don't have anything smaller than a .30 though. If that is all you have, then hopefully my Christ portrait above illustrates the fact that you can still accomplish quite a bit with this size.

OH - Murray raised two very important points - when you're filling in areas of tone, do place your dots randomly instead of in rows because it will look computer generated and strange if you go in rows. You should be used to that principle, because the same thing applies when scribbling trees and whatnot.

The other point is to take a break every once in a while. This technique is murder on your hands and eyes, as you will soon see! It gets easier as you get used to it, but particularly if you are new to the technique, take breaks often or you can get lost in your drawing.

11-21-2005, 12:40 PM
Ohhhh-Great Class Troy! :clap: :clap:
How large is your portrait of Jesus?

Thanks for the pointers Murray!

Cathie Jones
11-21-2005, 12:45 PM
Jeanette, I like your ref - I'm thinking of doing something similar.

Murray and Troy - do you have any examples of what you consider small or simple?

Mary Woodul
11-21-2005, 12:49 PM
Troy, I'm sorry I rushed my comment this morning but I was late on my Monday schedule. Your work on your Christ is beautiful, I forgot to tell you that. :)

Murray thank you for the suggestion on trying something simple first, I would have started my definite reference without any practice.

Troy Rochford
11-21-2005, 01:08 PM
Judi - Jesus is 11x14 and took about 40 hours.

CJ - this is honestly the only thing I have handy iin the way of small pieces. This technique isn't exactly practical for sitting around doodling, so I usually only use it on commissions. I don't post my commissions without client approval of course, but the bigger issue is that I no longer have a camera and therefore rarely have photos of the work to show.:( (*This does wonders for my portfolio by the way :rolleyes: Oh, somebody, anybody, send me a digital camera!!! :p ).

Anyway, this was an initial sketch I was playing around with for the pinup girl that I turned into a zombie for that f/x company logo. It's about 3x5" on regular old inkjet paper if I remember correctly.


11-21-2005, 01:40 PM
Hi Everyone,
Just peeking in here to see the new lesson. Troy and Murray are right in suggesting doing a small drawing. This will cut your time down by WEEKS!.
Also, another good point of working with the smallest nib size you have...a 6X0 Rapidograph is perfect or Hunt Crowquill for dip fans will do or try a Micron 01...but if 3x0 is what you have then that's doable too as you can see in Troy's Jesus drawing ( very nice work Troy!).
Keeping the subject simple but still challenging is good because this lesson is to familiarize yourself with Stippling. If you enjoy it then do a nice larger more complex subject.
A Simple subject suggestion.....how about crumpling up a piece of paper and placing an object on it. If you can, snap a photo of it and print it out on your computer....then you can work from that photo anywhere you go. By crumpling the paper you give yourself some nice textures and shadows to work with. This also keeps your main subject from getting boring. A sort of mini still life. The object could be anything also, a cell phone, interesting sharpener, calculator, pinecone, walnuts...maybe make it Holiday related!, an ornament....whatever. Just a suggestion because it is familiarization with stippling, not creating The Last Supper.
Very best wishes on your projects. I'll be looking forward to seeing your results!

11-21-2005, 01:42 PM
Oops. accidentally posted twice....

Troy Rochford
11-21-2005, 02:13 PM
Hey Ron, great idea for the mini still life! Thanks for stopping in":)

11-21-2005, 03:21 PM
Hi Everyone :wave:

What??? you thought you'd get rid of me? :evil: I've discovered that this class (and you guys) are a lot of fun.. and I wouldn't want to miss out on any fun, now would I?

I intend to participate in this one, as I could use some brushing up on my stipple. I haven't used stipple as a stand-alone method in quite some time, and I think it'll do me good. I'm looking forward to this, and can't wait to see what you all come up with!

11-21-2005, 04:03 PM
The smallest example of a stippled drawing I did is this Rose.
I did this while watching a TV program and it took me about an hour (not including the drawing time).
There is some graphite shading in here too. I think the two go well together.
The original size of the image is about 5 inches by 3 inches.


Murray :cool:

Cathie Jones
11-21-2005, 04:34 PM
Thanks, guys . . . good suggestions (especially Murray - I was wondering if a rose would be good for this practice!)!! I'm still working, but will get going on this later or tomorrow. :D

11-21-2005, 08:46 PM
Hey All!

Hi Murray!
I think your rose is gorgeous! :clap: :clap:

Hi Ron!
6/0! :eek: :eek: I never knew they came so small! I thought the 3/0 was small. Thanks for the ideas! I browsed your Gallery. WOW! I am so-o-o impressed! That is amazing work! The boats, the cars...loved them all! :clap: :clap:

Hi Dave! Glad you are joining in-We are fun! :D

Hi Troy! Great girl you have there! I did not realize she was stippled.
Don't worry Boss-I will finish my last project before I jump in here. :angel:

Troy Rochford
11-21-2005, 11:15 PM
Judi I thought you had one of those seven pen sets that start with a 6x0 (???????)

11-21-2005, 11:21 PM
It is a 7 pen set but 3/0 is the smallest. (the beige).
then 2/0-yellow, 1/0 grey, 1-brown, 2-red, 3-green & 4-orange.

Troy Rochford
11-21-2005, 11:31 PM
Turquoise is king, Judi!

11-21-2005, 11:33 PM
OK I'll get one. Thanks Troy!

11-22-2005, 07:45 AM
The rose is gorgeous Murray! Hi dave and Ron... nice to see yall here again... great tips.

Hiya Teach, Judi, CJ, and anyone else!!! :)


11-22-2005, 08:19 AM
Great to see everyone here. Many thanks to everyone for their advice and suggestions on how to proceed on this technique. Ron, your work is brilliant!

I've finally decided on a reference image (I think:rolleyes: ) or at least this is what I'll be working on this week. Its a shipwreck of unknown name on the northeast coast of Newfoundland.

I'll be checking in when I can this week as I have my notebook with me to see what everyone is up to.:wave:


11-22-2005, 08:28 AM
Wow this will be great to see finished!!! I can't wait!!

Cathie Jones
11-22-2005, 12:11 PM
Here are my ref and the drawing. I drew it on sketch paper, scanned it (in case I need to start over:eek: or use it for something else), printed it, and will transfer it to the Bristol much lighter for inking. I think the leaf on the stem will change, but not sure how yet.

11-22-2005, 12:24 PM
Oh Jeanette-that will be great-hope you do a lil crop on it-all those rocks- :eek: :D

CJ-gorgeous! I think the leaf needs to be larger-just my opinion. :)

Mary Woodul
11-22-2005, 12:52 PM
Ron, Murray and Dave, it will be a very pleasurable class to have you three join us in this class. Ron I came across your website on Saturday from googles and what a nice surprise to see that the work I was so impressed with, was yours.

Jeanette, that is a gorgeous reference and I know you will do great with it.

CJ your working fast, I know that you will do great at this class also.

Troy, I was going to post the little bit I had last night but my computer didn't cooperate so I will work on it a little more today and post it with the reference tonight. ;)

BTW Troy, you have been hiding drawings from us. That is a good one of the girl.

Hi Judi and Tia. :wave:

11-22-2005, 01:05 PM
Posting intended ref from the RIL. I am going to take it one item at a time. I just loved the pot, so will start with that.

Reference (http://www.wetcanvas.com/RefLib/showphoto.php?photo=32439)

Hi Mary! :wave:

11-22-2005, 01:18 PM
Nice reference CJ. I agree about keeping the leaf.
Hi Mary.

11-22-2005, 01:19 PM
Wow Judi, can't wait to see it. :) Nice one.
I still have to find mine.

Mary Woodul
11-22-2005, 02:34 PM
Judi, I love your reference. The pot is so unique.

I think I will post this now before going any further. This is the one I chose to practise with.



Troy Rochford
11-22-2005, 02:46 PM
Mary that looks great so far. The ellipse is off at the top of the ball though. As far as the technique goes, you seem to be doing fine.

CJ nice reference = your drawing is a bit off, if that matters. The rose in your drawing is tilted at more of an angle, while the stem is about the same as ref.

Jeanette that's a great reference. One of Ron's things is doing boats, so I know he will love this one.

Cathie Jones
11-22-2005, 03:12 PM
CJ nice reference = your drawing is a bit off, if that matters. The rose in your drawing is tilted at more of an angle, while the stem is about the same as ref.

The good thing about flowers is that they're never perfect!!:D

Troy Rochford
11-22-2005, 03:43 PM
Okay folks, my connection is crashing every couple of minutes, and I now can't get any images to load on this site. I'm severely low on patience today so I'll see you guys tomorrow. Have fun.:)

11-22-2005, 04:00 PM
nice reference mary

11-22-2005, 07:47 PM
Hey All :wave:

Mary :wave: -I see you behind that camera! :D
Great start!

Hope it is better tomorrow Troy. :)
But now you can draw all night!

Cathie Jones
11-22-2005, 07:49 PM
Oops! I was in a hurry today when I answered Troy and didn't see anything else.

Mary, it looks beautiful! You're gonna ace this one!!

Judi, I have that ref in my favorites to paint someday. One of the good watercolor guys (mr sandbanx) painted it and did a wonderful job!! It's from a challenge (two of them painted it) - you can see it here http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2921648&postcount=1 if you're interested. His is the second one - "Chris's Stuff".

Had lunch today with a friend from the former workplace. It's just as bad there as ever, if not worse. I'm so glad to be out of that place and able to be here where I can fight with Troy more often!!!! :p

Fireman's kid
11-22-2005, 09:34 PM
Jeanette, CJ, Mary and Judi - I see you ladies are wasting no time. Nice references all!

I have to apologize for going off topic here, but I want to share my excitement with someone and I consider the 101ers to be my WC! family. Tonight I went to the reception for the member show of my local art club. Much to my surprise I won two prizes - one for each of the pieces I entered! :eek: I entered the charcoal pear trio that I did for the charcoal class here and got third place in the mixed media category. I also entered the watercolor painting of red peppers that used to be in my signature line and won FIRST prize in the watercolor category!! It was just a small show, but it feels great anyway! :D This is the first time I have won anything for my art. Thanks for letting me share.

Troy, I promise to stay on topic now and "Think Ink". :D

11-22-2005, 09:49 PM
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
I am so-o-o-o Happy for you!
:) :) Not suprised though...You are so talented! :) :)

11-22-2005, 09:52 PM
CJ :wave: -Thanks for posting the watercolors! They are beautiful!

Cathie Jones
11-22-2005, 09:53 PM
Congratulations Stacy!!
I bow to your fantastic talent!

You're a terrific watercolorist and truly deserve those prizes!

. . . now get back to work on these classes . . . :evil:

Fireman's kid
11-22-2005, 09:58 PM
Thanks Judi and CJ! I've been smiling so much my face is starting to hurt. :D

Hey CJ, I thought you relinquished that whip to Troy?!? :evil:
Not that I want him to use it! :eek:

I promise to take my pens with me over the holiday. :angel:

Mary Woodul
11-22-2005, 10:48 PM
Thank you; Tia, Judi, CJ and Stacy. ;)

Congratualitons Stacy :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

11-22-2005, 11:13 PM
Congratulations Stacy. Two prizes....Wow!!!


11-22-2005, 11:17 PM
This looks like another interesting class. Great references for everyone so far! I will have to wait until after the weekend, as I just found out that I am hosting Thanksgiving. It was supposed to be at my son's house, but two of his kids and my DIL are sick. So the rest of my kids and grandkids will be coming here instead. Yikes!!! I picked up some groceries tonight, and tomorrow I have to clean and bake. They will be staying for the weekend, so my art supplies are temporarily packed away.


Troy Rochford
11-23-2005, 07:47 AM
Congrats Stacy!

11-23-2005, 08:06 AM
YAY STACY!!!!!!! You go girl!!!

That is such great news!!!


11-23-2005, 08:18 AM
Hi :wave:
Okay I think I will try this first to get the feel for it, and then ....


I'll move on to one of these three, I can't make up my mind yet, but thought it would be a good challenge for myself.
I would of course crop and enlage the one I want to do. :p
Am I crazy or what?:wink2::evil::rolleyes: lol

Fireman's kid
11-23-2005, 10:02 AM
Thanks everyone! I am still smiling this morning. It was nice to come here and find you celebrating along with me. :)

Michelle, sorry to hear about the sick family members. Tough to have to cook and host overnight guests on such short notice. Hope all the prep goes smoothly for you!

Tia - love the garlic reference! It should be a good one to start with. But that lace. :eek: You must either be crazy or a glutton for punishment! :D Good luck!

11-23-2005, 01:23 PM
Hi everyone, :wave:

Congratulations Stacy--that's wonderful!! :clap: :clap:

I was a bad girl and I didn't do the last assignment, but hopefully I'll get to it eventually. I decided to try this one. I've kind of been on a rooster kick lately and already have done a colored pencil sketch of this reference, but decided it might be fun to try it in ink. Here is the reference and my start. I think I need to slow down a bit--patience is not my most developed virtue.
I know the tilt of the head is way off, but that's o.k., I just wanted to practice the stipling. As usual, the icky marks on my drawing are from my scanner.




11-23-2005, 02:31 PM
Stacy - That is very exciting news. So glad you got some recognition for all your hard (and good) work.
Mary - good work on the start.
Anne - My scanner is all messed up, too, in spite of mylar pages for charcoal and using good cleaners on it. I am going to ask HP about replacing just the glass.
This is harder than it looked - as though everything wasn't. I have a strong tendency to dash instead of dotting. This was a WDT reference, from DraigAthar in the RIL. This version is 5" x 6". I wanted to start with a small, simple reference and remembered how much I enjoyed doing this one in the regular method. I used a .3 micron as the small pen with a larger, unknown size rapidograph for the darker places. It looks better at a distance and I do miss erasing. I know we have lots of time, so hope to do a "real" picture next with stippling.

11-23-2005, 03:46 PM
Anne: wow...even without the tilt it looks great.

Connie: wow also... the ball isn't quite round but the texture of your stippling is very interesting!!! :) It almost looks like scribble..really cool effect.

Okay here's my practice... not sure if I like it or not...I'll put them side by side I hope and see if they're even close..(on screen)


11-23-2005, 04:07 PM
Congrats Stacy!
Anne - thats is a great start!
Connie - Great dark and light one
Cateyes - simple shape, but hard to value

14X20cm tech point pencil on heavy paper. The pear is a crop of a pic from SweetBaby , in Ref LIB

11-23-2005, 04:21 PM
noice work yabby...the doily looks great.

11-23-2005, 06:20 PM
:clap: GREAT start everyone! :clap:

When stippling, try to hold the pen as upright as you can. Holding it at a slant will tend to give you small stroke marks instead of dots. This will also happen if you don't takes those breaks. Tired hands and eyes are not your stippling friend...LOL

I also think if you all practice doing a "value scale" (or something that has a variety of values in it) in stippling, it will get you used to how to graduate the values in your work. Getting something REALLY dark with stippling takes time!

PS: Remember to be patient! Stippling is VERY time consuming!

Look forward to seeing MORE!! :D:)

Murray :cool:

11-23-2005, 06:30 PM
Thanks Murray

Troy Rochford
11-23-2005, 06:35 PM
Ditto what Murray said. I'm pleased to see so many of you jumping right into this!

Anne what size nib are you using for the bird? This would be a great candidate for a photorealism piece if you have small enough nibs available.

Connie - same question. Also, do focus on keeping the pen vertical and slow your pace so that the dots are cleaner. The texture of the skin on this is a bit too busy and rough, but that could easily be remedied by taking Murray's advice above.

Mary i hope you didn't give up on the christmas ball just because I said one little ellipse was off:( It looked great.

Tia you seem to have the right idea. Keep practicing and you'll produce great stuff with this technique.

Yabby that looks great! This, too, would be a stunning piece done with finer nibs and a slower pace.

Okay Dave - where's yours???? You're late!!

11-23-2005, 06:39 PM
Just wanted to jump in and wish those celebrating a safe and Happy Thanksgiving!!

Well I am done with all the distracting projects and ready to get back to 101.:clap:

Missed you folks a lot. Left off at Drawing Glass which is 7 lessons back so I have a lot of catching up to do.:cool: I want to do them in order so I will start reading Lesson 24 Drawing Water this week end.

Congrats Stacy!!!:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Walk in Peace,

Mary Woodul
11-23-2005, 06:41 PM
No Troy, I haven't given up, here is what I have up to now but I am going slow and I have also made a mistake in the drawing of the reflection but I will have to use my artistic license and make a few changes in the reflections. :)

Anne, Connie, Tia and Yabby, your drawings are all looking good!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Nov-2005/43096-IMG_4060.JPG http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Nov-2005/43096-esfera_3.jpg

Troy Rochford
11-23-2005, 06:52 PM
That looks excellent Mary. Looks like you're a pro at this, not a newbie. Seriously.

11-23-2005, 07:00 PM
Great work Mary!!! :D

Thanks Troy.

Mary Woodul
11-23-2005, 07:44 PM
Thank you Troy, hope not to let you down. :)

Thank you, Tia! :)

11-23-2005, 09:04 PM
Hi Mary-Ohhh that is looking really wonderful.

Hi JOE!!!!!!! :wave: :wave: :wave: So happy you are back-can ya tell? :D :D :D

Thanks for the advice Murray!

Good first drawing Connie.

Yabby that is beautiful.

Looks good Tia.

Anne-I think he is really well done.

11-24-2005, 01:39 AM
Hi everyone, wonderful references here and wonderful work so far.

I am in Winnipeg til Friday and have done a little work on the boat...but internet access has been down at the hotel til tonight. Typical. :(
Jeanette that's a great reference. One of Ron's things is doing boats, so I know he will love this one. Oh great Troy...no pressure is there??? :)

I love your reference Mary, and the start you've made, it looks great.

Congratulations Stacey on the awards! Fantastic news!!! But then again, we all know you're so talented anyway... :)

Lovely rose CJ, that will be beautiful when you've done it.

Great reference Judi, I look forward to seeing the progress on that one.

Troy Rochford
11-24-2005, 01:45 AM
You'll do just fine Jeanette. I thought you liked being under pressure anyway? I was going to start a stippled boat tomorrow just to keep you on your toes....:)

Mary Woodul
11-24-2005, 06:56 AM
Happy Thanksgiving!


Have a great day everyone!!!

Anita Murphy
11-24-2005, 08:57 AM

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!!!

11-24-2005, 09:38 AM

Cathie Jones
11-24-2005, 09:41 AM
Hope all you Pilgrims eat your share of turkey all the trimmings!!!


Troy Rochford
11-24-2005, 10:00 AM
I don't believe any of these silly holiday banners are rendered in ink!! :cool: ;)

11-24-2005, 11:09 AM
Thanks everyone for your comments!

Troy, to answer your question, I'm using a rapidoliner pen with a .35 nib. I have a Koh-I-Nor pen here that doesn't have a number, just an "F," which I'm assuming stands for "fine". Do you have any idea if this has a finer nib than the other pen? I don't have any ink at home, so I can't fill it and test it.

Connie, your drawing is very interesting--good job!

Tia, great practice drawing!

Yabby, yours is looking fantastic-great work on the doily!

Mary, excellent start--there's so much detail already!



11-24-2005, 12:08 PM
Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!

And I must say that everyone is off to a great start! Good job, guys! (and gals!)

Stacey - Congratulations on your awards! http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Nov-2005/61349-party0002.gif I'm thrilled for you! Way to go!

Okay, here's my little contribution.....

I've been working on my Christmas card and decided to post (a portion of) it in this thread because I did it in stipple. (the background will be mostly line work)

MC Escher had a fascination with reflecting spheres, which I shared even as a little kid, so I thought I would combine this fascination and a childhood memory for my Christmas card. I started this last week, posting a WIP thread in the P&I forum (I needed some advice on the design). If you're interested, the thread can be found here (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306636).

I'm not using a specific reference photo as this is a conceptualization of a memory... when I was about 4 or 5 years old, I vividly remember standing in front of our Christmas tree staring at the reflection in the shiny ornaments. To create this, I'm using... 1 - memory.... 2 - a photo of myself when I was five.... and 3 - a reflecting sphere to dictate the reflective properties.

Here is the semi-completed "ornament". I will be going back over this once the background is complete, as there will be some inevitable reflections of the branches as well as some tweaking. You can't see them, but there are three lights that are creating some glowing reflections on the ornament. (in case you were wondering about those white areas.) Also, this doesn't look very much like a mirrored sphere yet, but should look better once I have the dark background in place to provide the much needed contrast. Oh... I also intend to hand-color this with colored pencils when I'm done.

The size is 3" in diam., and I am using a .30 koh-i-noor.


And here's a close-up...


When I saw Mary's decision to do a reflecting Christmas ornament, I thought that was so cool! (brilliant minds think alike..no? :rolleyes: ) Actually, I always like seeing what two different artists will do with similar subject matter. btw - great start, Mary!!! I love it!!!

Cathie Jones
11-24-2005, 12:30 PM
Dave - You Da Man!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Troy - What, you can't see all the little tiny dots in the Turkey Day wishes?? Must need new glasses . . . technically, they're all made of little dots!!

Mary Woodul
11-24-2005, 01:12 PM
Anne, I love your Thanksgiving Card, that is really cute!

Dave, this has been a lucky day for me seeing you Christmas ball. I usually don't have very good ideas but after seeing your Christmas ball, I must have had a moment of enlightenment. Actually I had never thought of the reflections until I saw them in the photograph after taking it. I was taking Ron's advice about something simple and he mentioned a Christmas decoration. Seeing your extraordinary Christmas ball will be a great help for me and very valuable learning. Thank your for posting the link. :) BTW, I think I have a fascination for Esherism too!

11-24-2005, 01:23 PM
i love what you guys have done with the pen and ink!!!

Troy Rochford
11-24-2005, 01:33 PM
Hey Fuzzy you haven't been kicked out of class as far as I know! Where's YOUR ink work?

Dave - it's about time you dragged over here and posted that christmas card! As I told you already, it's looking great. Love the concept and your execution of it so far.

Anne - if you ever happen to find yourself in possession of a 6x0 (.13 nib) rapidograph, do that bird again with that and you'll see how stunning it will look. It just isn't very time efficient!;) I don't know anything about any koh i noor's that are marked with letter codes, so I can't help you there. Sorry.:(

Cathie Jones
11-24-2005, 08:29 PM
Here's a practice for the practice . . . I think. See, what I did was put the pattern on a scrap piece just to place a few dots to get warmed up. But I got carried away and did the whole thing. And, to tell the truth, I was surprised that it ended up looking like a rose!! Any suggestions before I start the "real" practice???


and the ref for Mr. I-don't-want-to-go-looking-for-it . . . http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Nov-2005/23460-smiley_angel.gif


11-24-2005, 09:04 PM
Hey All-Hope you had a great holiday!

Ann-That is a great Card!

Hey Dave-You certainly have let your hair grow since you were lil :D Anyway- that is so cool and will be watching for your grand finale on this! :clap:

CJ-I think you just overdid some areas and underdone others-Just my opinion.
But it is lovely!!!!

Troy Rochford
11-24-2005, 09:14 PM
CJ I agree with Judi precisely. You obviously have the right idea, just need to pay attn to the ref and be more cognizant of where you place your dots. This way you'll avoid unwanted "clumps" of dark areas, and you will better match the value transitions of your reference. That's really good for a practice run, though.

Oh- Judi - bean pies rock!! Tastes like pumpkin.:)

11-24-2005, 09:23 PM
Mary - I'm looking forward to your reflecting ornament. And I think it will be good for you to use artistic license!

CJ - Thanks! And your rose looks great! My suggestion.. more values!.. and don't be afraid to leave some areas white (the highlight on the left edge of the petals).

Troy - Thanks bud!

Fozbot - Yeah, where's your ink??? :D

Judi - That haircut in the pic is the very reason for my current hair length! ;)

Cathie Jones
11-24-2005, 09:25 PM
If you look at the ref you'll see that there are dark "clumps" which suggest indentations on the body of the rose. How should I render those without them looking like "clumps?" In other words - those dark spots weren't accidental . . . so I must not have the idea after all. I can see that the rest of it needs to be darker, will that help?

Dave, we cross-posted. Thanks for looking!! Good thing this is just practice!

11-24-2005, 09:32 PM
Yeah, I cross-posted with Troy also (I'm a slow 2 finger typer - lol) How should I render those without them looking like "clumps?" You could try laying down an entire single layer, and then go back in to add those darks.. one dot at a time, if need be. (it won't take many) That should help you make the transition smoother.

Troy Rochford
11-24-2005, 09:32 PM
CJ I'm not an idiot and I can see the reference just fine. I know there are blemishes in there, but there are areas where your tones should be smooth and they are not. That just takes practice, it's nothing to get defensive about. And btw, yes, some of that can be remedied by darkening, such as the shadow side of the stem.:)

Mary Woodul
11-24-2005, 09:33 PM
Oh- Judi - bean pies rock!! Tastes like pumpkin

Bean pies :confused: , what am I missing, never heard of those before?

CJ, I like your rose but I do agree that you put in too many dots where the lighter part of the rose is. Looking at Dave's drawing, I see he uses very few in the lightest parts. I also found Murray's suggestion very helpful about having the pen straight up.

Troy, I worked on my Christmas ball quite a bit but didn't go too far so I will post tomorrow. A couple of weeks ago, putting clothes in the washer the ring on my ring finger got caught on the rim of the washer as I was pulling my hand out and it pulled the knuckle pretty bad, so I stop drawing when it starts hurting. It is so swollen I can't even put a ring on it. :mad:

Hi Judi! :wave:

Hi Dave!, we crossposted. :wave:

Mary Woodul
11-24-2005, 09:36 PM
Thank you Dave, I am going to learn a lot from your Christmas sphere. It is just great and your drawing of you in it is really keen.

Troy Rochford
11-24-2005, 09:39 PM
Lol Mary I was just taking the opportunity to answer a question that I forgot to address in email with Judi. It's not code-speak though, I seriously love bean pies. I can't believe Judi has not experienced the wonders of the bean pie.

Sorry about your hand Mary. I'll keep an eye out for the update.

Mary Woodul
11-24-2005, 09:43 PM
I can't believe Judi has not experienced the wonders of the bean pie.

Well I haven't either so I will have to look into to that! ;)

11-24-2005, 09:48 PM
LOL Troy-I am not so sure I want to experience the 'wonders' of a BEAN pie.

Hi Mary! :wave: Hope your hand feels better soon.

Troy Rochford
11-24-2005, 09:51 PM
Judi you need to check your email too. I did manage to answer your pen question!

Cathie Jones
11-24-2005, 10:01 PM
Sorry Troy - I didn't think I was being defensive, just asking how to achieve a more even look and still keep the dark places. I think Dave answered my question.

We're leaving town tomorrow morning (really, it's not anything you said!) and will be back Monday night. Going to Santa Rosa to see DH's kids and grandkids. I'm taking the laptop and will check in when possible. Don't expect to have time to practice much, though . . .

Y'all be good and don't eat too many leftovers!!!:D

11-24-2005, 10:05 PM
Have a great time CJ!

Mary Woodul
11-25-2005, 01:40 PM
CJ, enjoy yourself!!! :D

This today's update but I will try to work on it more this afternoon. Does it seem that I have to establish some darker values?



Sorry for the dirty scanner! :)

11-25-2005, 01:46 PM
Hi Mary! :wave:
Looks wonderful!!!!!!!
I think Murray's suggestion of a stippled value chart would really help you nail down the values.
Looks like you have a really great house!

Mary Woodul
11-25-2005, 01:53 PM
Hi Judi! :wave: Thank you, yes I enjoy my house, it quite minimalist with a lot light.

I will do a value chart and this scanner image is not very good. I notice that when I use my scanner at this hour, the image is not as clear. I don't know if it has to do with the amount of light that comes through the window. :(

11-25-2005, 01:58 PM
Do you close the lid on your scanner?

Mary Woodul
11-25-2005, 02:01 PM
Yes I do Judi, but the window is right next to it and it looks like light could seep into it. Oh, well I'll scan the next one at night. :)

11-25-2005, 02:54 PM
CJ- nice work on your rose.

Mary- looking good. :)

Hope everyone had a good Turkey Day!

11-25-2005, 06:13 PM
This today's update but I will try to work on it more this afternoon. Does it seem that I have to establish some darker values?

Hi Mary...looks GREAT so far! :clap:
I does seem to need some darker values, BUT keep doing what you are doing and once you have the entire image stippled...go back and place those darker values in....it will be easier to see where they need to go that way.

Also, when you are scanning a stippled peice...try to up the contrast a bit (don't over do it!) in your graphics program to get the ink back to the black it is :)

Murray :cool:

11-25-2005, 06:17 PM
Here's a practice for the practice . . . I think. See, what I did was put the pattern on a scrap piece just to place a few dots to get warmed up. But I got carried away and did the whole thing. And, to tell the truth, I was surprised that it ended up looking like a rose!! Any suggestions before I start the "real" practice???

Hey Cathie....the rose looks good! :clap:
Try coverting your refference pic to greyscale and then map out your various values lightly in pencil first...that should give you a good idea of where the light/mid and dark values need to be in your stippled peice :D:)

Murray :cool:

Mary Woodul
11-25-2005, 06:22 PM
Thank you Murray, you answered one of the questions I had in my mind. I didn't know if to finish the drawing first and then concentrate on the darks. I will up the contrast, too. :)

Thank you Tia! ;)

Troy Rochford
11-25-2005, 07:43 PM
Looks good Mary, and I want to live in your house! I agree with Judi and Murray re darks, but it's looking great.

Mary Woodul
11-25-2005, 07:49 PM
Thank you, Troy. As they say in Spanish, "mi casa es tu casa", my house is your house. :)

I have worked on it some more since and I will try to have it all by tomorrow evening, so you can tell me where to work on the values. ;)

11-25-2005, 10:24 PM
Hi Mary,
You've got a stunning piece there! It appears you've decided to leave yourself out of the piece which removes that nice dark contrast to it. This now puts the piece in a mid-value overall. I'll be watching to see what dark values you include to bring it alive....excellent work Mary!

Troy Rochford
11-25-2005, 10:37 PM
Hey RON!!!!

I'm participating in my own class here this weekend. Dave's participating. No pressure or anything, but you know...if we are supposed to be the 3 musketeers leading the way here, then we are short one participant!;) Go ahead...whip up one of your awesome boat scenes. I'll check back in an hour. lol

11-25-2005, 11:03 PM
Hi Troy - That's too funny...an hour! hahaha. Actually, I keep checking in to see any progress on Jeanettes boat....I really liked that reference photo she put up, ( and Jeanette, I've seen your work so you should have no pressure from me at all...your very very good!). There are some really really good artists here in this project. Waiting to see your piece too Troy....Did I ever mention to you that everytime I see that footer of yours I find myself always adjusting my voice and say "Well, do ya, punk?....that thing is hypnotic!

Yabby - very very nice work on the pear and lace!

Tia - your garlic looked great and waiting to see the lace

Connie - I like that hand and ball but if you slow down and try to keep the check marks down it would look even better....still, a good job on that one.

Anne - Your chicken looks fantastic so far. Great subject and positioning of the head!!

CJ - you also did a fine job but I agree the lighter areas are too close to your dark areas...try to keep them really sparse of dots so they stay light...you can always go back when down to adjust and darken them if you have too. Good work kiddo!

Jeanette - it's going to be a Jaw Dropper!!

and Dave - I'm partial to yours because it will be hanging on my wall very soon! hahaha.

A lot of excellent work going on here Troy. I'll see about a boat....or something. Hope everyone had a fun Thanksgiving!!.

Troy Rochford
11-26-2005, 01:51 AM
Yeah Ron I like Jeanette's ref a lot also. I'm looking forward to seeing what she does with it. As for my hypnotic signature, that's all part of my plan. Apparently you are not staring deeply enough into his eyes though. You are supposed to feel compelled to turn over all of your money and material possessions to me, and spend the rest of your life writing folk songs about me and selling flowers at the airport. Or something like that.

11-26-2005, 02:16 AM
Troy - Hahahaha! In that case I'm glad I haven't made it down to those eyes yet! There's been too many Guthries out there writing folk songs. I was at the airport in Louisville Kentucky once and a robe wearing guy hands me one of those awesomely illustrated books on Hari Krishna and begins telling me how George Harrison was into it....I handed him only $2.00 and he took the book back but gave me a small dried flower. I guess I didn't meet the correct level of generosity.....(I'll avoid Clints eyes!)

11-26-2005, 08:53 AM
Well, I go away for a few days and what happens? This place explodes with amazing drawings. Quite incredible.

Mary, this Chirstmas ball is exquisite. You're the master at this without a doubt.

Connie, great reference image! These drawings take a lot of time mto produce don't they?

Great chicken Anne! Looks just like one I had in the barn. :D

Tia, that lace looks complicated but it will be beautiful when done.

CJ, I think the rose looks lovely, just a little more depth and it will be perfect.

Dave, that drawing is wonderful! What a great card it makes. Its good to see the closeup too and realize just how you've acheived it.

Thanks for the votes of confidence Troy and Ron, I'll have to deliver now!:)

I did some work when I was away and more this morning so will post the first image in progress. Yesterday I had to leave Winnipeg very early and was doing a little drawing while I waited for a cab to the airport. Then I got interrupted and shoved everything in my bag only to discover when I was on the flight that I'd left my pencil case behind. With ,my new Rapidograph in it!:( However, I called the hotel and they found it and will mail it to me. Phew! So I bought another pen on the way home to tide me over - a Staedtler and its not bad I must say and a smaller nib size too which helps.

Anyway..... here's what I have done so far.


11-26-2005, 09:42 AM
Jeanette! :wave:
Welcome back. Your boat looks fabulous!! as well as the bg and the rocks in the water w/ their reflection. :clap: :clap:

11-26-2005, 10:45 AM
GREAT start Jeanette :clap: :clap:
A smaller tip should give you better control with detail and value changes.
You should also watch for a difference in the type of balck ink between the two pens, they do change with different brands.

Murray :cool:

Troy Rochford
11-26-2005, 11:19 AM
Looking good, Jeanette!

Mary Woodul
11-26-2005, 11:42 AM
Jeanette, this is going to be one of your many great pieces. It is looking very nice. Thank you for your comment!

Ron, thank you so much for commenting and for your suggestions. I will ponder on that empty space today, which is quite a dilema for me and try to solve it tonight. :confused: I will go over the darker values again and try to get some contrast in there. :)

Troy Rochford
11-26-2005, 11:54 AM
Mary it's not too late to put a big angry gorilla dead center, reaching for the ball. Or did someone use a variation of that idea already? Hmmmmm.....

Mary Woodul
11-26-2005, 12:03 PM

11-26-2005, 01:48 PM
Troy - TOOOOO FUNNY !!!!!!ROFLMAO I think that guy will like that suggestion!

Mary - Looks as if you already have carried your lines over for the details, flooring/walls etc...the foreground looks to be just that wood flooring so....create! I'm sure you will do a fantastic job of this one. Really well done so far Mary.

Jeanette - Lost a Koh In Noor!?!?!?!? ("get a rope!"). Thankfully they are sending it back to you. Your image looks very well done so far and your subject matter is ....well, my favorite of course. Really looking forward to seeing you conquer!

11-26-2005, 04:02 PM
Thanks for the comments. :)

Wow Jeanette!! It is coming along great.

11-26-2005, 05:58 PM
Hi! I'm new to Wet Canvas and obviously to Drawing and Sketching. I'm interested in beginning the Basic 101 course in Drawing. How do I begin? Do I need to wait for a new class to begin...I noticed that the last class began in October? Or can I jump in at the beginning or at week #?. Please let me know. Thanks, Nan

Troy Rochford
11-26-2005, 06:08 PM
Nan, click the link in my signature and go to the pre-class thread. That should cover everything in detail, but the basic rundown is this: Do the first five classes, and then you can jump around to whatever class interests you. Be sure to post your results as you do the exercises in the classes, so that we can help you.

11-26-2005, 06:20 PM
Thanks, Troy..I'll communicate further from that link! Nan

11-26-2005, 08:02 PM
Thanks Judi. I browsed your reference. Those apples and pot will be great when you do them.

Thank you Mary:) . Your Christmas ball is coming on beautifully. Will you add yourself to it? I hope so. It would be truly unique then. AND it would make a great Christmas card then too!

Murray, thank you. The thinner nib does make a difference in getting detailing ndown pat. Good tip on the differences in ink colours from brand to brand. I tested ono some scrap paper first and its worked out ok. Better safe than sorry.

Thanks Troy. Its slow going but rather addictive isn't it? I think there's a few little differnces in the ref and my drawing, but I figure I'm allowed a little artistic license.:wink2:

Ron, thanks so much for your comments. I'm adding to the image, bit by bit. The slowness of the medium makes me think and observe more closely. I rather like that.

Thanks Cateyes, I'm enjoying doing this drawing, but glad we have 3 weeks!

I've had the afternoon to add more to this so I'm posting the update here.
This is on Bristol smooth 9 x 12. I must get a piece of illustration board and try that soon. Dear Santa...:)



Troy Rochford
11-26-2005, 08:10 PM
JEanette - looks awesome. And you get bonus points for being cute like Nicole Caulfield and posting refrigerator art! Jay and I are both big fans of that!:)

Update from yours truly coming tonight, btw. Hide the kids...;)

11-26-2005, 08:46 PM
Thanks Troy. :) My fridge art is just because I don't have a second set of hands to hold the drawing in decent light at night. However, if that earns me bonus marks, I'll take it...

Waiting for the update...come on Troy, I need my beauty sleep you know.

11-26-2005, 09:00 PM
Wow Jeanette-not only is it going to be a beauty-it's going to be a BIG beauty! Awesome work! :clap: :clap:

Posting the rough...running behind. :o Need to fine tune the ring a bit.


11-26-2005, 09:11 PM
Thanks Judi :) I guess little wouldn't work with this ref.

You know, I really do like your reference photo. It has an 18th century feel to it somehow. I'm sure you'll have no problem adjusting the ring and getting going on this one. I'll look forward to seeing the update.

Mary Woodul
11-26-2005, 10:30 PM
Judi, that is going to be beautiful like the one before.

Jeanette your's is an eye treat. The reference is such a great one and with your work it can only be outstanding. BTW, I can't get Koh In Knoor pens here but I do have two Staedtlers. How do you see the comparison of the two?

I couldn't work on mine today because everyone in Mexico puts their Christmas tree up at the end of November so that was what I was doing and since my two grandsons were here I couldn't concentrate so I just took it down, to start again tomorrow. :( I'm nit picky like someone else I know. :rolleyes:

Troy, I thought I'd see an update, that is why I checked in. :(

11-26-2005, 11:54 PM
Jeanette - I love your Aeral Perspective on the background...excellent! Reflections looking good too. This is fine work Jeanette!!!!

Judy - The drawing looks great..I agree with Jeanette here, a very classical look to the drawing....can't wait to see your inking.

Troy - The kids are on their way to sleep....waiting to see whatcha got.

Troy Rochford
11-27-2005, 12:01 AM
Hey Ron, coming up in about a half hour. I was waiting to get enough done to be interesting. That hasnt happened because I've been lazy today, but I'll post anyway.

11-27-2005, 12:24 AM
Hi Troy - It's early so no problem...take your time on the piece....I'll see it tonight. Thanx, Ron

11-27-2005, 01:01 AM
Hi Troy - It's early so no problem...take your time on the piece....I'll see it tonight. Thanx, Ron
Awww forget that, Troy!!! :evil: It's 1 am.. I'm tired and I'm sitting here in suspense! ...............oh, I'm sorry.. was I pressuring you? :rolleyes:

Jeanette -Your boat is looking wonderful!

Judi - I'm sure you will do great justice to that pic!

Troy Rochford
11-27-2005, 01:31 AM
Here's the beginning of my little project. I'll post the reference when I'm done. For now, I'll just let you guys watch this develop.

I forgot how much I loathe scanning stippling work. It does NOT look this crappy in real life.:(


11-27-2005, 02:05 AM
Hi Troy,
It's pretty small but from what you have done in the lower left hand side it looks pretty well done. You surely have the depth working there and very,very nice variations in values. You have a subtle touch with the values which gives your "layering" of the leaves that great depth to it. Nice seperation across the leaf surfaces too, again, very subtle values....I think you're on to a very nice piece of art Troy. I'll be watching it develop. Good work so far.

11-27-2005, 02:11 AM
Looking good, Troy! Nice start!

Troy Rochford
11-27-2005, 02:16 AM
Thanks Ron! My scanner tends to blur stippling work something fierce, and makes it look sloppy as hell, so I tried scanning at a higher resolution to get a better result. Didn't really make much of a difference, but it did increase the file size to the point that this was the largest I could post it here. I'm doing this pretty small (about 7x5" horizontal) and I don't have the luxury of spending forever on it, so I should have it done in the next few days. I'm really not comfortable working this small, but at least that will allow me to work at a slow enough pace that it won't look like a disaster in the end, and the end will come around quickly!

11-27-2005, 02:40 AM
I scan my work at 300 DPI on large 11"x14" pieces and larger. Try 600 DPI on 5X7 and you should get a good scan but you'll have to reduce file size by going to maybe 500 pixels to get under WC's file size....I had to do that this morning for a post on the Pen & Ink thread.
All you can do for blur is to Sharpen it in Photoshop....maybe a couple of times.
Also, if you are using one of those Mustek ScanExpress A3 wide format scanners forget it! I bought one and finally went back to my old Umax Astra which makes killer scans. Mustek made a lemon with that A3....blurry scans and ghost images all the time.

Troy Rochford
11-27-2005, 02:49 AM
Ron, allow me to introduce myself. My name is Troy. I am a moron when it comes to computers! lol

Oh, and I don't have photoshop. And as for reducing file size, I have no clue how to do that, or if I even have the technology to do that. If I do, I'd like to know!!

11-27-2005, 03:38 AM
Troy, What program are you using to reduce your images? Because I would suggest using Irfanview. It's totally free and extremely easy to use. I have several "industry standard" image programs, including Photoshop, and Irfanview is the one I use to prep all my images for WC.. and I pride myself on crisp images :D If you're interested in trying it, I'll be happy to give you my "recipe" to get the same results I do. I won't get into it unless you want me to.

btw - you can find it here. (http://www.irfanview.com/)

11-27-2005, 05:47 AM
I just noticed this thread. It's been going on for some time now, so you get a taste of how oblivious to the world I can sometimes be. Glad I found it. I really want to try this.

My ref photo is at http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/p51.htm. It's an old govt photo of a P-51 fighter palne, so I'm not sure about copyright issues, hence the link instead. Someone please advise if that is illegal to do - I just want to draw a plane, not get anyone in trouble.

Unfortunately, the best I can do for a pen on short notice (I'm late for class) is a Staedtler Lumocolor Permanent. I think the size is appx .3 or .4 based on my internet research (it's not on the pen). I have brown, blue, and orange. I will be going brown for this attempt. A good pen is on my art store list for the next time I am on the other side of the island. Sorry you must suffer for now with my brown .3 something. Also, any thoughts on a very very light graphite line drawing? If I don't do it my airplane is likely to look more like a submarine.


11-27-2005, 07:04 AM
OK, here is an hour's work. I can definitely see how a higher quality pen would be of help. As would slowing down (I'll learn that someday). Anyhow, here is my P-51D North American Mustang.



11-27-2005, 07:06 AM
I forgot to request c+c. Please fire away, I'm awaiting your pointed comments (yuk yuk!)

Mary Woodul
11-27-2005, 08:08 AM
Troy, you impress me with the emotion your drawings convey depending the subject. This one is already so soft and beautiful. The shading in the layering of the petals and the center is awesome. :)

Smitty, that fighter is looking good. ;)

11-27-2005, 09:14 AM
Thanks Mary. :) I don't have a complaint with either Koh-i-Noor or Staedtler pens, but then I haven't used either for very long. My concern comes with reports on koh-i-noors which says they seem to clog easily or won't work for some unknown reasons. Staedtler Marsmatic is the one I bought the other night to last me til my rapidograph arrives, and its fine. I have no complaints. And the refills are just complete drop ins, nib and all so no cleaning or clogging to deal with. And they're cheaper!

Maybe a thread on pens alone would be a good idea for those of us who haven't used them much before. You know, the best, the worst, how to clean them, when to clean them, best nib sizes, etc, etc.

Thanks Ron, I'll get there bit by bit. I will be asking for advice when it comes to the sky on this one. I don't know where to even start on that or to simply leave it blank.
Troy, excellent drawing!!!! :clap: The flower looks very realistic. Your toning is wonderful. Keep on sending updates!! Troy there are lots of programs that will reduce file size and Irfanview works well and is free. Even Windows Imageviewer which is built into XP (and perhaps lower versions) will resize images for you.

Thanks Dave!:)
Neat fighter plane Smitty!:clap: What size is the drawing? Yes, the smaller the nib size, the more detailing you can get in the drawing. But this is a great stippling exercise; once you find a pen you like, there'll be no holding you back.:)

Anita Murphy
11-27-2005, 09:55 AM
Mary - wow - you have this tied down completely!!! What a super picture. I love the delicacy you have acheived with this.

Jeanette - that boat rocks! Well, obviously not if its sunk, but you know what I mean!

Judi - looking forward to seeing yours.

Everyone I missed, great work!!!

11-27-2005, 11:26 AM
The image below is from the P&I article I did for WC.

I thought it would be a good refference for those who would like to see how placing your dots makes a difference in values. If I remember correctly, this entire drawing was done using a .005 tip pen. It took me over 60 hours to complete :eek:

In the top left corner you can barely see the difference in values in the drawing itself, but in the exploded view there is a definite difference. That's how subtle the value changes can be with stippling :)



11-27-2005, 11:41 AM
Troy it is looking quite good even with the scanner troubles...I have a perfect solution for it if you are interested.

Jeanette...you blow me away it looks great!!!

Judi- I can't wait to see what this one will look like!!!

I did a reference for my lace, but I am not sure if I went too large...what do you all think?


11-27-2005, 02:04 PM
OK, here is an hour's work. I can definitely see how a higher quality pen would be of help. As would slowing down (I'll learn that someday). Anyhow, here is my P-51D North American Mustang.


Aha you snuck in on us...almost missed your post.

It looks really good.

11-27-2005, 03:15 PM
The P-51 is just under 3"x4". It alright, but I think I could do way better with the right materials and some time. OK, Troy's probably gonna kill me but....My Staedler doesn't have nibs, it's just a permanent marker. I promise to get a better pen and try this later. It's nice to know I can scrounge around and still make some art with whatever is at hand (may come in handy if I ever get sent to a gulag or something).

Sorry I didn't comment on everyone's last night - it was late, or should I say early.

Mary, I like the excellent and delicate quality of yours.
Cateyes, Looks good, a challenging subject I think.
Dave, Awesome. It's clear you have some practice at this. I think I could learn a lot just by watching you.
CJ, I like the single rose.
Yabby, nice pear and doily, also a toughy I think.
Tia, Wow, you are brave with the lace.
Connie, congrats. Hand is great.
Anne, I think you did awesome capturing the face. He looks angry.
Judi, looking forward to more.
Jeanette, the ship is going to turn out great, I can tell already.
Troy, sunflower looking good. I need patience lessons from you and Jeanette again. I should hire a monkey to club me over the head whenever I am rushing.

Looking forward to more. I'll be watching and I'll try another once I get a better pen. Awesome to be back in class.


Troy Rochford
11-27-2005, 03:43 PM
Dave you need to get a real pen and your results will be much better. There will be no killing, though.

Thanks all who commented on my flower. lol I know I didn't post enough progress to really give you guys anything to comment ON, but I wanted to keep my word and post something last night. I'll be working on 3 projects simultaneously tonight, one of which will be that flower, so i'll post something late tonight or tomorrow. If this comes out well enough, I'm thinking of re-doing the same picture large format for sale, so I'm counting on you guys to let me know what you think of the viability of the thing - not just my work, but also the composition, level of interest, etc... I don't generally go around drawing flowers, so I'm not really in touch with the concept of what sells and what doesn't in that area.:)

11-27-2005, 04:15 PM
Troy it's looking really good so far... I honestly can't wait to see what it'll look like.

11-27-2005, 05:07 PM
Hey All! :wave:
Those are going to be great flowers Troy!!
Hi Anita! You joining us? Miss you!
Tia! I have to agree that looks challenging-can't wait to see what you do!
Murray! I remember the tutorial-That is some amazing work! :clap: :clap: Absolutley helpful!
Dave-Nice plane-hope you get a 'real' pen soon. You definately conveyed the shapes well.

Mary Woodul
11-27-2005, 05:29 PM
Jeanette thank you for the information on the pen. The marsmatic is what I have and the one I'm working with is .01. and I have the .03 that I used for the foliage drawing.

Murray that is great help for us, I am a little confused in the numbers I saw in your chart and the numbers I can get here for instance they all come like .01 and up.

Anita, thank you for your comment and it is nice to see you around.

Smitty, thank you!

Troy, flowers always sell and the way you are going with this one it will fly!

Tia, nice reference!

Hi Judi! :wave:

Troy Rochford
11-27-2005, 08:11 PM
I'm signing off soon to seriously get down to working on these things, so I figured I'd post this for the sake of doing so. Last update until tomorrow. I've just made some tonal adjustments and started to better define the edges of the flower. Maybe now it at least makes a little more sense visually.


Mary Woodul
11-27-2005, 08:28 PM
Wow Troy, I don't think i've seen anything that beautiful in a flower, and flowers are one of my favorite subjects. Your doing tremendously well with this. :)

11-27-2005, 08:30 PM
Tia, thank you. I think your reference will work beautifully. But a lot of work ahead of you.

Thanks Anita. It would be great for you to join in on this as well. :)

Troy, your update looks awesome! The flower is very well rendered. There's always a market for botanical drawings and at this quality, you should have no problems in selling them.

Mary Woodul
11-27-2005, 09:05 PM
I haven't been able to work on this very much this weekend but I drew in a Christmas tree in the empty space and I don't want to ink it until you all, give me your opinion. I don't know if it would be better more in the forefront or if it is distortioned in the right way. I have upped the contrast a bit so that you can see the drawing.


I think the tree looks a little cartoonish and needs refining.

11-27-2005, 09:52 PM
The drawing is just beautiful Mary. Personally, I would like the original image of you photographing the ball in the reflection. If you use the Christmas tree, that would work well also as long as you get the 'twist' to it in the reflection.

Are you working from your imagination or a real reflected tree on the image?

11-27-2005, 10:19 PM
Looks good Mary...hope you don't mind the comment below....

11-27-2005, 10:35 PM
Hi Troy - Hey....that looks really well done. I love that center area of the flower. Great work so far!

Mary - I think you did very well on the darkening the overall contrast of the image. I think the tree is a nice touch...and this is just nitpicking, but I wish you had gone larger on it. It's a great idea to bring in that really dark area but seems a little small. I'd push it closer to the center of the room and really put that curve of the bulb on it...and show the bulbs on the tree too like you have them there already!
This is sort of what I'm talking about.......of course your values would be slightly lighter on the tree than this quickly done photoshop image.... http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Nov-2005/1949-bulb.jpg

Excellent use of artist license putting the tree in there Mary.! Going larger or more to the foreground is up to you though entirely! You should do what you feel comfortable with. It looks excellent so far Mary!

11-27-2005, 11:00 PM
Posting 3 hours. LOL-In between phone calls. Have one layer in on the bg and starting the fabric folds. Please excuse the evening photos. They really are bad. But it is all I can do at the moment-had to work today. :(
Dave-I visited the Irfanview site-but really would appreciate some more information on the downloads and settings you use. Please? :)
Ron, Are you a photoshop maniac? :D - I really love what you have done w/ Mary's tree bowed out like that in the center.
Mary, That looks great!!! I have to agree on Ron's distortion coming from the center out.
Troy- The sunflower is coming along wonderfully!

Fireman's kid
11-28-2005, 12:33 AM
Wow! You guys are really moving on this lesson! I did no art over the weekend. Too busy eating, shopping and visiting with family. It was fun though. :D Wish I could say I would do better this week, but I'm not sure and I don't want to make any promises I can't keep. :angel:

Mary - I love the Christmas ornament. It will look great with the tree in it.
Judi - You have a great start here.
Jeanette - the boat is looking awesome! Can't wait to see the finished drawing. (No hurry though. ;) )
Tia - That lace looks like a real challenge.
Troy - the sunflower is incredible!!!
Smitty - nice work on the airplane especially given the tools you had to work with. :)

11-28-2005, 01:38 AM
Mary, I think bigger is better too. Seeing the photoshop rendition above I agree that it should be centered too. I think you have a really excellent drawing in progress here.

Troy, Judi, Jeanette - rock on ! Looking good.

Thanks, Stacy.

11-28-2005, 02:52 AM
Hi Smitty,
I like that P-51 you did. I love WW2 aircraft and you did a good job rendering that image. I've never drawn a plane flying because I figured you'd just have to do all of that background sky or some of the ground from way up!! hahaha. I like the way you did this one, good job Smitty.

11-28-2005, 03:07 AM
Hi, Ron. Thanks. I appreciate the compliment. I know I am capable of much better work, but I just wanted to get a feel for stippling and just have a relaxing art experience without getting worked up over the "quality" of it. Once I get a nice pen and a block of time I may try a more serious attempt at pen and ink. These classes are great because you can relax, explore, get feedback, and learn from others. Once you find something you like or that works for you, then can really focus your energies. Since I just finished a big project, I guess I'm in the relax and learn mode for a while now and it feels quite good. Thanks for the compliments on the plane. Nice to meet you.


Mary Woodul
11-28-2005, 06:50 AM
Judi thank you, your doing a wonderful job on the drawing!

Jeanette thank you for the suggestion of putting myself in.I would have liked to but I really don't think I've learned to draw people yet and I know I would ruin it. My experience in drawing has just been the 101 class and I have to overcome my fear of drawing people. :D

Smitty your fighter plane looks great, you are example of those who have sped throught the 101 class. :)

Ron thank you so much, (couldn't we just leave your's in :D ), just kidding, but I couldn't help it. :) I really appreciate your giving me an example because I just couldn't make out how the distortion would be in the center. I think that is the perfect size and placement. :) I will work on it today.

Hi Stacy :wave: , thank you!

Cathie Jones
11-28-2005, 09:52 PM
We're back . . . what a long day! Can you imagine what this site would be like if they didn't take care of it . . . total chaos!!

Can't upload an image yet, but we had to come home yesterday instead of today so I worked on Rose II most of the day.

See y'all in the morning!!

11-28-2005, 10:19 PM
Hey All!:wave:
We're back on! Yippee!:clap: :clap:

Hi CJ!:wave: Hope your trip was fun!
Hi Stacy, Mary and Dave! TY:wave:

11-29-2005, 02:17 AM
Troy - Your last post looks much better! The cool thing about Irfanview is it's amazing ability to reduce the file size without losing quality. If you try it, you'll find that you can post larger sizes with more detail. Most of the images I upload are less than 50 Kb.

Mary - I also like Ron's digital version including the tree, however... the tree is much too large! If you want to keep this as realistic as you can, you should realize that the reflective properties of a sphere make things appear much smaller than they are. (like the convex passenger mirror on a car saying "objects are closer than they appear") I spent alot of time studying the mirrored sphere that I'm using for my drawing.. I suggest that you do the same... walk around with it and see how distance is affected.

Ron - You digital imaging maniac!!! :D I didn't mean to challenge your advice about the tree. In fact, that's a great example of the "bulging" effect that's needed. ......ummmm... just a little too large... but you know me.. I'm a stickler for such things! :angel:

Smitty - Nice job on that plane! And yes.. I've had a little bit of practice. ;)

11-29-2005, 07:39 AM
ooo cool new box at the bottom!! but I can't use it :(

I am glad it's back I tried up til past 6 pm last night and gave up.

Troy Rochford
11-29-2005, 08:08 AM
Hi all! Mary I told you the tree will look cool but you have to get the distortions correct. Ron has you on the right track. Can't wait to see update!

Speaking of updates, if the system will allow such a thing, enjoy...

11-29-2005, 08:20 AM
Looks really good Teah! Amazing how much deatail there is!

Cathie Jones
11-29-2005, 09:51 AM
Looking good, Troy! I like your ref - maybe I'll try something busier next.

Here's Rose II and her ref in greyscale.

Mary Woodul
11-29-2005, 11:03 AM
Ron, Dave and Troy, thank you guys for your help with this. Without you I would have already ruined it. I will look carefully into the shere and see what it would look like, draw it first and post before inking it, so you all can tell me if I'm on the right track.;)

Troy, you flowers are beautiful. I love the painterly effect you are giving it and to me it would seem much more difficult to achieve that, with stippling.:cool:

CJ, your rose is looking very nice!:)

11-29-2005, 01:02 PM
nice rose CJ!!! :) It looks so delicate.

11-29-2005, 01:02 PM
Hi Mary....I'm sure you'll do fine and Dave would be more accurate on the proportions...He's doing the same kind of drawing and he has done a fantastic job on it.

Dave - No problem there...I've yet to do one of these type drawings....and isn't there an image of you contemplating The Sphere somewhere??? hahahaha.

Troy - Just seen your update on the flowers on WC and have to say you are kicking some bunns on that one!!!! Fantastic work Troy !

11-29-2005, 02:15 PM
Speaking of updates, if the system will allow such a thing, enjoy...

Troy, you just knew I would love your update, didn't you? :D Really looking excellent so far! This will be a beautiful piece!

11-29-2005, 05:24 PM
hi everybody!:wave: i see you've all been real busy and the results are truly amazing!!!:clap: Troy, i see even you got into the act!;) Love the sunflowers! sorry i've been MIA. other things going on right now for me. i miss you all but i'll be back so beware! LOL

11-29-2005, 06:04 PM
Hey CJ..the rose looks GREAT! :clap:
Hope you don't mind but I put in a black background in just to see how it looked....I kinda like it...what do you think?


Murray :cool:

Cathie Jones
11-29-2005, 06:26 PM
Thanks Murray! You're right - it looks good on a dark background!

Anita Murphy
11-29-2005, 06:27 PM
Troy - love your sunflowers!

Mary Woodul
11-29-2005, 06:55 PM
CJ, your rose with the black background looks stunning!

11-29-2005, 07:12 PM
Hey All!:wave:

Troy-Great update-a winner for sure!!!

CJ-The rose is lovely!!!! Do like the punch of the black bg.

Cathie Jones
11-29-2005, 07:15 PM
TY Judi and Mary! How are yours going?

11-29-2005, 07:23 PM
I'm still on my bg CJ. I have a project due Thursday and have had to put in a lot of overtime. :(
Should post some work tonight though.:D
Hopping to it before ya crack that whip of yours.:eek: :eek:

Cathie Jones
11-29-2005, 07:36 PM
No whip cracking here! I remember working all day and frantically trying to catch up on drawing at night . . .

11-29-2005, 08:05 PM
Mary, your drawing is amazing, truly amazing. I just LOVE it!

Great start on your drawing Judi. I can't wait to see more.

The rose is lovely CJ. And I do like that black background for it, it really stands out doesn't it?

Troy, the sunflowers are simply gorgeous. You sure do know your way around a pen!

Now for an update on the ship. I'll try to get a daylight photo tomorrow if I can as this photo is awful. Artificial light...:crying:


Mary Woodul
11-29-2005, 08:12 PM
Jeanette this is breathtaking! I love the reference photo but this beats all, it is just great!

11-29-2005, 08:30 PM
Thank you Mary. I think there will be a lot of great drawings in this thread. Everyone is excelling themselves.

Anita Murphy
11-29-2005, 09:12 PM
I think there will be a lot of great drawings in this thread. Everyone is excelling themselves.

I'll second that!

11-29-2005, 10:13 PM
This is Oscar, submitted to the library by artcrazy. Oscar and I have become fast friends during the hours we have spent together (this is the second version, too.) I would have liked to do a larger version of this handsome dog, but know the limits of my patience, so this is about 5" x 5". I finally gave up all together with the rapidograph pen, it just got so balky. I like the effect of stippling, but probably won't take it up in a serious way.
I have been enjoying all the work here, but have a hard time commenting with so many images.
edit - I have tried to add the original image, but it just isn't happening.

Cathie Jones
11-29-2005, 10:21 PM
Jeanette, bad photo or not it's looking terrific!!:clap:

11-29-2005, 10:33 PM
Jeanette! I am really in awe of your boat scene! That is wonderful!!!!:clap: :clap: :clap:

Connie! Love your Oscar too!
You have contoured him pretty well!
I tried to link in Oscar but it wasn't happening for me either:confused: They must still have some kinks in the system.

Posting stage 2 of the bg. Working on getting those those darks now.
A lil suprise though when I was doing the area under the bowls lip-lol-there was another apple stem!
Things should speed up here Thurs nite on progress. Gotta go to bed soon.

11-29-2005, 11:28 PM
Connie - thats a great looking dog you did there...Very nice rendering. Sorry you don't want to spend much time with stippling though...you did very well.

Cathy - your rose looks really nice on that black background. You did a good job on that rose!

Jeanette - You have a very nice image there!!! Love those reflections in the water...can't hardly wait to see the foreground rocks when they are done too! Killer background trees...man, you've got it all going on in this one!!. Excellent work Jeanette!

Judy - Your darks look great...that's going to be a very nice piece of art there!

11-29-2005, 11:57 PM
Hi All,
Troy hinted at me submitting a drawing on this thread and I just finished doing one. This is a very small 4"x7" size image that I did starting on Sunday night. The size inspiration came from an art in the park show I went to see recently in Santa Barbara where some miniature paintings were on dsiplay by a couple of artists so I decided to do one of my own.

Here is my finished work on a scrap piece of Cresent HP illustration board. This was done with a 6X0 Rapidograph for everything but the sky which was done with a 3X0. BTW...the scan on this is not the greatest...I think maybe the half tones of the diluted ink or just the size of the 6X0 dots make it a problem...haven't figured that one out yet.

Here is a detail shot. I used diluted ink in my sky which is why the sky dots are lighter in value....this is a nice technique of keeping the sky forced into the background but you have to be careful when going over dots more than once or they react just like an ink wash getting darker, sometimes in the wrong places. hahaha.

Here is a shot of Ref photo. you can see the boat in pick is smaller. I drew my boat larger to fill the size of the small format. Since I drew straight onto my illustration board I kinda goofed the steeper angle on the boat in the Ref but I can live with it. Hope you like it, Ron

Cathie Jones
11-30-2005, 12:24 AM
Ron, that boat is awesome!! Thanks for posting it. :clap:

Mary Woodul
11-30-2005, 07:25 AM
Ron, this is fantastic!:) You do amazing work. I have been going through your website that I think is one of the nicest I have seen. I have to go back and sign you guestbook.;)

Thank you for mentioning the diluted ink. I wondered how some artist achieved a lighter tone in the stippling and have the dots close together.

BTW, I hope you don't mind my being influenced by your prehistoric vessel, that I think is awesome and try one myself after the sphere, that I hope to post a little later on today.

11-30-2005, 07:36 AM
Connie: Cute Pooch!!! You did a nice job on him.

CJ: The black background really punched it up!

Jeanette: It's fantastic!!

Ron: It looks really great!!

Judi: You have a wonderful start.

I am thinking that the lace wasn't such a good idea after seeing all of these. I'll post my progression, but may decide on something else.

11-30-2005, 07:50 AM
Here's my WIP: Let me know what you think...should I find something better or what? lol I decreased the sizeof the reference and put the reference next to it. Tia

11-30-2005, 07:54 AM
I guess the bugs are still being taken out...I'll have to attach it. There's no thing to upload the photo... :( :( Sorry guess it'll have to wait.

11-30-2005, 08:11 AM
Connie, Oscar is great! I love it. Stippling does take time and not everyone will like it, but I agree, the effect is wonderful.

Thank you Judi :) The background on your drawing has really taken shape, I'll bet you can't wait to get to the apples and the pot.

Thanks CJ! Let's hope this scan comes out a little better.

Ron, Ron, Ron.....what can I say? Your newest boat image is awesome!:clap: :clap: And thank you for your kind words, its much appreciated. I have to admit, I'm beginning to get a liiiiiiiitle tired of rocks now lol But I'll keep on with it. I'm not sure about the sky, Should I fill the whole sky with tone, just leaving the white clouds untouched? Or just add the blue sky parts as I've done now? I'm half scared I'll screw it all up if I tinker too much.

Thanks Cateyes. I haven't seen your start on the lace yet, but I think it would be a great drawing, almost abstract. Of course, its your call, but hey, its only paper isn't it? If you don't like it, you can always try something else.:)

Now, here is the scanned version of the boat - sorry ship. I was corrected a long time ago about the differences and can't remember the exact conversation except I know that boats are smaller, ships are bigger.:D


Well I guess that didn't work, so we'll have to wait til the uploader works again. Sigh.

11-30-2005, 08:48 AM
hmmmm....I don't see 5 stars on this thread yet.....
don't forget to RATE THIS THREAD!! :D:)

Murray :cool:

Troy Rochford
11-30-2005, 08:50 AM
Great work everyone!

Hey Ron I think you may be on to something with the 6x0 dots being a scanning problem. Maybe that's why my Jesus portrait scan had such better clarity, because that one was done with .30.

I took the night off last night and decided not to work on any art whatsoever. Then I ended up working on this for about 2 hours at 3a.m. lol. Enjoy

11-30-2005, 09:58 AM
Jeanette - All I can say is "Wow"!!! You definitely have a nack for this!

Connie - Nice job on the doggie!

Ron - You are truly the stipple master! http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Nov-2005/61349-worthy.gif

Troy - That's really coming along nicely! great work, buddy!

11-30-2005, 09:59 AM
Judi - I'm sorry! I wasn't ignoring your PM.. I've been away for most of the past few days, and what with the site being down and all. I have a bunch of things to do today and I'll explain more later... but for now... go to the Irfanview download page and just pick a location... it doesn't matter which one.. all those different links are simply places that host the download. Once you download (and install) the program.. go back and download (and install) the "plug-ins" (you'll see a link on the left). The plugins will give the program the ability to do a "ton" of things. btw - when you install the program.. check "none" at the file association selection. If you were to check one or more of them.. it would open Irfanview as the default program when you double-click on that particular file. For example, when you double-click on a jpg file, it would open it in Irfanview.. you may or may not want that.

Post back (or PM me) when you've done this and I'll help you with the settings.

11-30-2005, 10:08 AM
Troy - That is one heck of a drawing!!

Dave - Thanks too!!

IMAGE LOADING PROBLEMS..... before you hit the Post Reply Button when posting an image and your text....look at the code for your image - make sure it has http://www.wetcanvas.com in front of /Community....if it doesn't, TYPE IT IN or your image won't load. (Right click any of my boat images to see the correct first part of the code) For some reason after you upload your image it is leaving off the first part of the code and you can just type it in front of your code....in front of /Community of your image code

11-30-2005, 10:22 AM
Here is your image Jeanette...all I did was take your image code from your posting and typed http://www.wetcanvas.com in front of /Community on your code....

BTW...it is looking really good Jeanette!Reember, the water reflects the sky so if you choose to have dots for water you should do some dots for sky. If you leave the water white then just do a few dots in the sky like you have now....if you want sky, since most pen & ink peopkle leave the sky white, you can just put in a light layer of dots leaving some areas with not as many dots to similate cloud areas.

Cathy - Thank for your comments!!

Mary - I'd bet you will do a fantastic boat image if you do try one...your Christmas bulb is excellent so far!!! ( Don't forget to check your image code before you hit the post button...make sure it has http://www.wetcanvas.com in front of it. )

Troy Rochford
11-30-2005, 10:52 AM
Jeanette I think you should go old school with this. Put big fluffy clouds shaped like cartoon peanuts in the sky, and don't forget the big smiling sun with triangular rays shooting out:)

Oh and a couple of "V" shaped birds wouldn't hurt either!

Mary Woodul
11-30-2005, 10:54 AM
Connie, I'm sorry I neglected commenting on your stippling, it was too early when I posted this morning. Your dog is looking great!

Judi, your background is looking very good. You are the queen of bgs.:)

Troy, you are just as good at stippling as you are with graphite. That is so beautiful.;)

Ron thank you for the help with the posting. BTW, the vessel I meant, was your prehistoric vase or jug you have on your website.:)

Well here goes a try with the uploader.

I walked around with the christmas ball and stood close and far away from the Christmas tree. Being right next to it makes the tree look very much like the one Ron so kindly drew for me and standing further away if makes the tree look longer and slimmer, although since it is in the center of the ball there are no important distortions caused except the fact that it looks further away.

It didn't work, I'll try again, I guess I did it wrong.

Troy Rochford
11-30-2005, 10:58 AM
Lol Mary, Ron thought you were talking about his spaceship. He was wondering how you knew about that.;)

I'm as good with stippling as graphite? Perhaps, but that means I really suck at one of them. The question is, which one?;)

Mary Woodul
11-30-2005, 11:00 AM
I though you were going to say something like before I hit the submit button!:evil: You excell at both of them!!!:)

Mary Woodul
11-30-2005, 11:02 AM

Mary Woodul
11-30-2005, 11:03 AM
It worked!!!:clap: :clap: :clap: My sphere lost it's roundness on the right side. Can that be fixed?:o

11-30-2005, 11:10 AM

11-30-2005, 11:11 AM
Thanks Dave, I think I'm being pulled over to the dark (ink) side.:D I must say that I enjoy the medium a lot. And it becomes rather addictive.

Wonderful tip Ron, thanks so much for adding the image. The scan still doesn't resemble the RL image but it will do for now. I think I will leave the sky and sea alone and concentrate on those gazillion rocks. Newfoundland is sooooooo rocky.:) Its great to have your expertise to call on. Thank you.

Troy, you know you're getting way too good at this stuff. Next thing you'll be starting teaching threads...:evil: I've taken your advice in hand and here's the result. This is what you were look for Boss?:wink2:


Troy Rochford
11-30-2005, 11:13 AM
Mary you might have luck with a razor blade on that right side, but it depends on your surface among other things. Ask Dave. I usually either go slow enough not to have issues like that, or I just get over it if I make a minor mistake. That's one of the benefits of this medium. A lot more forgiving stylistically, as ironic as that may be.

Two things - I think the horizontal base of the tree is killing your distorted effect. Again though - ask Dave. I'm an Escher fan, too, but Dave is an Escher encyclopedia, and thus he knows all that crazy stuff about spheres and distortions, etc..

Second - why is your crucifix surrounded by a decidedly lighter tone? That looks unnatural. Almost like you were in the process of darkening the area and then forgot to finish or something. Do you have it lit that way in your home or something? I did not go back and look at the reference, so I don't know...

Troy Rochford
11-30-2005, 11:14 AM
Jeanette that is tremendous!! Perfect!!! Oh, but dont forget the sunglasses and smile on the sun

Mary Woodul
11-30-2005, 11:20 AM
I noticed it also Troy, I worked on it because I saw that there was some shadow hitting there, the way the light was coming in but I also used the camera program that makes more contrast so I think I will upload a version without that, because it seems artificial. Should I shadow the whole space around the crucifix? I will wait an see what Dave says about the tree, to work on it. I know what you mean and the space around I have left blank because I am not sure how to solve that.

11-30-2005, 11:44 AM
Mary, first of all I have to tell you again how much I love your drawing. My eye returns to it over and over and over. Its really lovely.

As for the bulge on the right, I don't know how to fix it, but its not glaringly obvious so I would put it down to the uniqueness of that ornament. :)

I agree with Troy that the tree should have a convex shape to it, at the bottom and in the centre, making it appear broader in the middle. Wait and see what Dave says, I'm sure he can advise you what to do next.

Whatever you do, it still is an amazing drawing.

I didn't have time for sunglasses and a smile on the sun Troy. :( Later perhaps. Does that mean I lose my bonus points??

11-30-2005, 11:56 AM
Hi Mary,
You can go two ways with the buldge, Either razor blade it or add to the diameter of the buld along the right hand side to correct it.
Razoring it sometimes leaves black smudges that won't come out and you end up tearing the paper trying to get the smudge out which is ok for reproduction use but not for showing the original. The original drawing will look terrible on that edge if you try scratching out the smudge.
I'd round it out by adding more bulb to correct it. Do a light pencil line to get the roundness right and then do some careful inking. Some areas along the bulb diamter have thicker "outlines"....you can blend them inward to make them work.
When doing the edges in ink...it really pays to go really slow and double check your pencil guidelines to make sure they are exactly correct before you ink.
Dave will come up with something for you here.....

Jeanette - Love them clouds!

Mary Woodul
11-30-2005, 12:02 PM
Troy I tried to fix the area around the crucifix and am posting this one without pushing the darks on the camera program.

Thank you Jeanette, I agree with both you an Troy about the distortion but I will see what Dave has to say as where to distort it.



11-30-2005, 12:10 PM
Will this let me upload now??? Let's see

11-30-2005, 12:12 PM
Mary it's lovely!!
Jeanette: Way to go!!
Troy: looks like you're accomplishing a lot... great work.

11-30-2005, 12:33 PM
Mary!http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Nov-2005/37258-icon14.gifLooking great!

Jeanette!:cool: :cool: :cool: Wish that sun was a shinin here!

Tia-Looks lovely! And I love your newest avatar!

Troy! :eek: :clap: :D

Dave- OH good-I was about to :crying: as I was being snubbed.
LOL- I will do that at home tonight and check back with you then.
TY for helping me out here!

Hi Murray, Ron, CJ and Anita!:wave:

11-30-2005, 01:19 PM
Thank you Judi. :)

That's Miss Talullah Bankhead. I placed this portrait of her in the Nov. portrait area. :O

Mary Woodul
11-30-2005, 01:25 PM
Ron, I think we must have cross posted. Thank you for the hint on adding on, I will do that.

Tia, that is looking very nice!:) I also like your new avatar.

Judi, Hi:wave: and thank you. I've missed you these day, I guess we have both been busy!! How is your work project going?

11-30-2005, 02:38 PM
Tia, thats a great start on your lace. I don't think you picked th wrong subject at all! This is going to look great. I like your touch with the pen...very nice Tia.

Anita Murphy
11-30-2005, 02:46 PM
Just to make you laugh!

This is definitely not my medium!



11-30-2005, 02:52 PM
Hi Anita. I think you've grasped the medium very well so far.

Its a bit hard to see so close up, perhaps a view a little further back would give a different perspective. But from what I see, it looks like a great start. :)

11-30-2005, 02:57 PM
I'm not laughing it looks good!!

11-30-2005, 06:01 PM
Judi - I wouldn't snub you!!!.. I may doze off while thinking I need to respond to your PM, but I would never snub you! :)

Anita - Please don't be so hard on yourself. That's a fine effort! In case you haven't seen it.. there's a thread in P&I going on where we're all posting our earliest ink work.. you know, before we knew what we were doing! :rolleyes: It may give you some confidence to know that you're ahead of most of our first efforts!

Tia - Nice start on that lace! :clap: Can't wait to see more!

Mary - The size of your tree (in the bulb) is fine, but I think you should use artistic license to bulge it out a bit. Even though it appears thin in your actual ornament, the bulge will suggest the roundness that occurs in the reflection. Ron's digital version was perfect.. just a bit large. I also think the tree should be lighter than he made it, but that's my opinion.

Here is my version of Ron's version -


As far as how to fix the roundness - Ron said exactly what I would've said.. almost word for word (me and Ron are tight like that :cool: ) If you're doing this on illustration board, I would say give the scraping method a try, but not without practicing on a scrap piece first. I've never tried this on paper because I never do ink work on it.. I only use board. I been using a razor more and more these days as I've become more comfortable with it (I used one to fix my ornament drawing in 2 places) However, I don't use a flat razor because I find it difficult to pinpoint the area I want to "erase" without scratching it.. so I use a razor with a rounded edge. This way I don't need to use the tip to do the scraping.. I use a portion of the curved side. Also, don't try to "erase" with a few passes.. go at it slowly and change direction of your motion by turning your board to different angles (does that make sense?)

Having the confidence and the ability to use a razor to fix my small mistakes has given me less stress when working in ink.

Here is a pic of a woodcarving blade that I use with great success.


IMO, I think you'd be better off adding some more to the bulb to even it out (as Ron suggested), and blend it in. Another property of spheres is that it tends to get darker on the edges, so if you need to darken it to blend in your mistake area, I think you should be okay. One of the methods of fixing ink work is (unfortunately) to make things darker (in some cases).

Mary Woodul
11-30-2005, 06:21 PM
Anita, I don't see anything to laugh about. You are just starting and I think you are doing well.

Dave, thank you so much for the very valuable help you are giving me to solve my tree problem and the roundness. I will work on the tree this afternoon and hope to be able to make it look better. I will also add on to the roundness since I think it is a little less threatening to the drawing,if it is done by me. Thank you for the picture of the blade and I think I have one similar from an etching knife. I will try to practice on something else to at least get the feeling.

Cathie Jones
11-30-2005, 06:50 PM
Mary, you have a real masterpiece there!! Is it your Christmas card for this year?

Dave - Murray put my rose on a black background, which really made it stand out, and Ron kinda gave me a li'l pat on the head . . . but I don't think you or Troy saw the last post. Would you mind doing a little C&C?

It's here: http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4093477&postcount=179

11-30-2005, 07:10 PM
CJ - I'm sorry! :angel: You guys move so quickly here it's difficult to keep up. Your rose is outstanding! You did a fine job creating a more even tone on the petals. I think it needs a very thin area of dark darks where the petals overlap each other, in the creases.

Now, here's my take on the solid black background..

I hesitate to go completely black in most cases. I once spent a ton of time (over 100 hrs) on a stippled piece and rushed the background using a brush, making it solid black. It didn't ruin the drawing, but I know it would've turned out much better if I had done it differently. This left a bitter taste in my mouth about solid blacks. I do, however, endorse the use of solid blacks when incorporated into the drawing (as opposed to outlining an existing object). A great example of this would be Judi's foliage piece from class 29 where the dark background came first and the elements were worked into it. It really is a personal preference.. and this is simply my take on the matter.

I think if you decide to go with the solid background, you should blend the flower in by adding more contrast to the flower itself. Again, I suggest the old standby... print it out first and practice on the copy before committing to the original.

Troy Rochford
11-30-2005, 07:27 PM
CJ I agree with everything Dave said above. The only issue that I thought you needed to focus on before was even-ness of tone. You have done a great job on your latest effort in that area. On the background, I also agree with Dave. I think in this instance with the flower as-is, the solid black background gives a generic, pasted-on look. Personally if I were going to incorporate a solid bg on that, I'd dial down a few shades from black and do a nice even dark grey that will show some texture and blend more effectively with the stippled flower.

Mary Woodul
11-30-2005, 07:47 PM
Thank you CJ.:) Yes I would like to make it a Christmas card if I learn to put the text on and don't end up ruining the card with the tree.:o

Everyone is going to be good and tired of this Christmas ball so I hope I will soon finish with it. This is what I worked on. If there is still something that can be done to the tree, please tell me. There is also that very light area around it that I don't know what to do with and possibly there might other areas I should still darken.



Cathie Jones
11-30-2005, 07:55 PM
Thanks Dave & Troy - I know the thread moved really fast after WC came back up, and that's when I posted it.

I wasn't thinking about a solid black background. Maybe some dark leaves to relieve the starkness, but that's all. The background Murray put it on just made it easier to see.

Mary, I don't think it's possible to get tired of looking at that ornament!!! The only thing that could make it better is . . . shhhhhhh . . . color :eek:

11-30-2005, 08:22 PM
I just love this ball Mary. You must do prints of it, cause I want one! :)

Troy Rochford
11-30-2005, 08:23 PM
Anita I dont see anything wrong with your work - you are trying a new medium, it's not going to be perfect right off the bat.

CJ good plan!

Mary - remember the rules of tonality will still apply to objects within your sphere. The base of your tree should be more in shadow because of all the rest of the tree above it.

11-30-2005, 08:49 PM
Thank you Ron, Mary and Dave, I really thought it wouldn't be a good subject, but I think it is coming along well. Thanks for the encouragement!!!

11-30-2005, 09:08 PM
Hey All!:wave:
Finally home!! :clap:
Mary-Are you sending us all Christmas cards?:D LOL at the rate mail goes between you and I it would come at mid January! It is beautiful!
Thanks for asking. My project is due tomorrow and it is a nursing home. I have set up my very own room on the psychiatric floor.:D Ahhh-room service though! Only I think you have to scream really loud for it. I've heard it! (not poking fun guys-just been really trying these days and trying to cheer up a bit- as actually going there leaves you a lil depressed:( )

Anita! Yah! you are here and posting!:clap: :clap: I think you did a great job! I just think you gave up on it to early-just needs some more stippling, that's all. Keep going on it!:clap:

Thanks for the info again Dave, though it will best be looking at it all tomorrow nite.

Hi Troy, CJ, Ron and Jeanette!!

Cathie Jones
11-30-2005, 09:52 PM
Hi Judi! :wave: Glad to hear the dreaded project is almost done!

Mary Woodul
11-30-2005, 10:16 PM
Thank you Jeanette, Judi and CJ, I think I still have a lot to do to it before it is done.

Judi, your project is giving yourself to others as you have always done and that is always rewarding.:) Let me know how it went.

11-30-2005, 10:28 PM
OK... I can't stand it anymore I need to join in on this one ;) . I love this stuff and I just finished a commission and haven't started the next one yet (don't have spec. from client yet). I'm posting my reference pic. I took it a few years ago at the Monterey Bay Aquirium. I'm starting tonight.

Anita Murphy
11-30-2005, 10:41 PM
Ok I am plugging on with this. I need some help - how can I define more between the petals - Did I choose something that was way to abstracted for this????

11-30-2005, 10:57 PM
Hi Anita,
You picked a great subject to work with...why? It's all values!. Look closely at the petal edges of your rose.....look hard!. Notice how each petal is seperated by a very distinct value change...light to dark...dark to light.
Each one is like that on this image. None of these petals blend together...they all have well defined seperations and you can render these by doing various shades of the Grey-Scale.
Look at the very top petal to the left side...see how it goes from bright white fading to a dark grey and then a slight bright white outline? Now look the other direction...see how it goes from bright white to an even grey on the background petal? All you need to do is keep your values seperate like in your Ref photo and make your fading areas nice and smooth. You can do it!

Anita Murphy
11-30-2005, 11:04 PM
Ron - you make it sound so easy!!! I am completely befogged by this! I keep leaning on what I have just done and smudging it too - my hand is stippled!!! I try to think about the form of the petals and work with that but it isn't working very well :(

Cathie Jones
11-30-2005, 11:25 PM
Ron, I love your description of Anita's rose. No wonder you do such wonderful work - you can see it all so clearly!

Danna - Welcome!! :wave: Glad to have you aboard! I've lost track of time on this one, but we still have either one or two weeks for this lesson.

12-01-2005, 12:39 AM
Anita - Perhaps I can add to Ron's excellent advice. I think you may be trying to create the graduation of values "on the go" so-to-speak. Why don't you try creating one even layer of stipple over an area, then go back over it by adding a dot here, and a dot there to create your graduations. It doesn't take much to darken an area with stipple.

...just a thought.

Dana - What a great reference image! I can't wait to see this one!

12-01-2005, 08:01 AM
Hi all
Welcome Danna, can't wait to see what you'll do with this!
Mary I think you're doing a fantastic job on this!! Maybe you can do Ecards instead of paper ones :)
Anita, your flower is lovely...I understand what you are saying though. You are a great artist and I know you can do it. :)