PDA

View Full Version : Alizarin Crimson


impressionist2
01-26-2002, 08:12 AM
I love Alizarin Crimson. It's such a great color and it does so many wonderful things. I add it to skin tones, mix it with thalo green to make a wonderful "black", use it with white for a cool highest highlight, mix it with almost every color on the palette to create great mixes and terrific effects.

Where does it come from? How is it created?

I have heard there are all kinds of lightfast problems. What's the latest and is there a brand that is more stable than others? Is it one of the safe paints? Is there a substitute color? (although I can't imagine abandoning Alizarin.)

Renee

llis
01-26-2002, 12:36 PM
Alizarin Crimson is made from 1-2-dihydroxyanthraquinone and aluminu hydroxide making it a synthetic organic pigment, or at least that is what my Ralph Mayer's Handbook for artist's says.

On another list I am on, someone said to use Quinacridone Violet instead of AZ because QV has a higer resistance to fading.

I tried that, but I like AZ , QV is not the same.

I've heard too that many consider AZ to be too fugitive to use at all and that mixing it with a lot of white or using it very thinly is the worst for lightfastness but using it pure would be acceptable. I tend to think that this is not true. I think that if you added AZ to other colors, the other colors would sorta form a protective barrer around AZ and keep it more lightfast.

It would be interesting to hear from someone that has done some actual tests on AZ and it's mixing qualities.

Rose Queen
01-26-2002, 03:27 PM
I can't help you on the toxicity question, but I was told in watercolor not to mix alizarin crimson with viridian because, over time, they interact badly and the color will corrupt. I don't know if the same applies to pastels or other kinds of paint.

I don't like alizarin much, anyway, so I use Daniel Smith's carmine instead.



100% free webcam site! (http://showmewebcam.com/?p=0) | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! (http://showmewebcam.com/?p=2) | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3 (http://showmewebcam.com/?p=4)



100% free webcam site! (http://showmewebcam.com/?p=0) | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! (http://showmewebcam.com/?p=2) | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3 (http://showmewebcam.com/?p=4)

Michael2
01-26-2002, 04:11 PM
Alizarin Crimson is a fugitive dye made into a pigment by fusing it with a neutral colored chemical such as aluminum hydroxide.

Modern chemistry has created a wide variety of Quinacridone pigments. Quinacridone Violet can be used to replace Alizarin, but it doesn't behave like Alizarin at all. It's a lot brighter and more intense than Alizarin, and is more difficult to mix with non-organic colors. But Quinacridone Violet is a beautiful color... I love it.

Whether or not you want to keep using Alizarin depends upon how you feel about it fading in 50 years. It sure sounds like you are an expert at using it and have mastered it's unique properties.

sandokan
01-28-2002, 05:32 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by impressionist2
[B]I love Alizarin Crimson. It's such a great color and it does so many wonderful things. I add it to skin tones, mix it with thalo green to make a wonderful "black", use it with white for a cool highest highlight, mix it with almost every color on the palette to create great mixes and terrific effects.

Hi, impressionist2!!!
Could you show me me examples?
Some your paints?
Bye!
I've found this color is very expensive!
In Italy it seems in production only "PURO" by Maimeri.
It's expensive very, very and very expensive, more than gold!
Is there a cheaper producer?
Bye!

diphascon
01-28-2002, 10:29 AM
the original Alizarin Crimson is a natural anthraquinone pigment isolated from the madder root. The Colour Index number is PR83. It is said to be non-permanent, losing the blueish tint over time.

Common substitutes with better lightfastness are some synthetic anthraquinones (anthraquinone red, PR177, called "permanent deep red" or whatsoever), and the deep red variants of the quinacridone red/rose/magenta/violet family (PR122, PV19 and allieds), which are "stronger" colours when mixing.

cheers

martin

impressionist2
01-28-2002, 07:56 PM
Thanks to everyone for their answers.

Sandokan, Below is my latest portrait which I suffered through. Not really, but Gail went through a lot of changes.

Gail is all alizarin crimson. Her hair is aliz/thalo green. All the shadows in her face have alizarin in them ( along with a lot of other colors)The underpainting and a lot of the background - same thing. So, the question is will Gail be around in 50 years? Only time will tell.

Martin, I like anthraquinone red, in fact I have it by grumbacher. I don't know if i will like it as much as alizarin, but i will give it a chance.

Renee

sandokan
01-29-2002, 03:24 AM
Originally posted by impressionist2
Thanks to everyone for their answers.

Sandokan, Below is my latest portrait which I suffered through. Not really, but Gail went through a lot of changes.


Gail is all alizarin crimson. Her hair is aliz/thalo green. All the shadows in her face have alizarin in them ( along with a lot of other colors)The underpainting and a lot of the background - same thing. So, the question is will Gail be around in 50 years? Only time will tell.

Martin, I like anthraquinone red, in fact I have it by grumbacher. I don't know if i will like it as much as alizarin, but i will give it a chance.

Renee
I've seen, in some other post!
Good job!;) ;)
So have you used alizarin crimsom for give the portrait uniformity?
And if the answer is "yes", there are other colors wich have the same characteristic, that is to give uniformity to the paint?
I'm sorry for my english, please, correct me!
Bye:angel:

impressionist2
01-29-2002, 08:06 AM
Sandokan, Thank you.

The real reason I began using Alizarin was because I was originally trained by WS and local teachers in an impressionist style. ( Hence, my e-name ).Impressionists were known to have avoided black. I am sure there were exceptions to that case, but for the most part a substitute "black" had to be used for the dark values.

The formula for mixing aliz. crimson/Thalo green makes an amazing yet colorful 'black'. Try it next time you need a really dark passage. Thalo is a powerful color so "add a little" till you can't see either red or green anymore in the mix. I use it all the time and although raw umber/ultra blue can also create a black, I don't think it's attractive.

Plus, Alizarin is always used in my shadow skin colors in the mix so the painting pulls together.

Renee

diphascon
01-29-2002, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by impressionist2
.
The formula for mixing aliz. crimson/Thalo green makes an amazing yet colorful 'black'. Try it next time you need a really dark passage. Thalo is a powerful color so "add a little" till you can't see either red or green anymore in the mix.

I had a little bicolor experiment with anthraquinone red ("permanent" alizarin crimson) and phthalo green in the acrylics forum a while ago, in case you are interested:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21777

cheers

martin

impressionist2
01-29-2002, 02:14 PM
Martin, That's a good example and I like your abstract.It makes such a beautiful 'black'.

I never let the thalo take on it's own properties for my representational pieces. I mix burnt sienna into the aliz/thalo mix and that quells the thalo.

Renee

diphascon
01-29-2002, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by impressionist2
Martin, That's a good example and I like your abstract.It makes such a beautiful 'black'.

I never let the thalo take on it's own properties for my representational pieces. I mix burnt sienna into the aliz/thalo mix and that quells the thalo.

Renee

Renee,

thanks for your appreciation. A thing like pure phthalo green (especially when mixed with white) is not found very often in nature, so it might well be used in representational art only in mixtures.

cheers
martin

p.s. I visited your website, your work is impressive.

walden
01-30-2002, 06:52 AM
Renee, in his book "Alla Prima", Richard Schmid says "the new Alizarin Crimson by Gamblin appears to be completely permanent." Regardless, I think it's been on his palette for a long time, although he does mention elsewhere that it is unstable in light mixtures, which would imply that your use of it in darks is fine. I use Alizarin mainly in dark mixtures as you do, and use Quinacridone Red (PV19) elsewhere as my cool red (it's usually sold as Permanent Rose, or something with rose in the name.) You can't get extreme darks with it, but it's a wonderful pigment in all other respects.

Einion
01-30-2002, 07:00 PM
llis is correct, it is in light tints and glazes that Alizarin Crimson is most at risk - there is a picture in one of my books of an old oil painting where what used to be a vivid glaze of crimson is now almost completely white (no exaggeration) except where the painting was protected from light by the frame. Unfortunately, like with any other pigment, mixing it with other colours does not provide protection, it may slow the fading but it cannot prevent it, hence why any commercial mixes using PR83 and PR83:1 should be treated with caution.

On the other hand this in only a concern if you care about lightfastness, if you don't you can just ignore it like many other people do, including many professional artists (no offense intended, Ali Crimson is the most common non-lightfast colour used by artists today). FWIW some makers' versions are more lightfast than others, Sennelier's being very poor for example.

In single-pigment colours, the best direct substitutes for Alizarin Crimson are Anthraquinoid Red, as mentioned by Martin, and of the quinacridone family Quinacridone Carmine (PR N/A) - "hue, saturation and value nearly identical to genuine alizarin crimson" - if you could find it in oils (sorry, don't know any suppliers in oils at present). PR177 is slightly bluer typically and neither will exactly replicate the warmer undercolour of PR83 but one can soon learn to adjust mixing: many of us have had to face something similar when trying a favourite colour from a different manufacturer which almost never exactly matches what we are used to.

Schmid's eye for colour is probably as good as anyone's and he says of Gamblin's Alizarin Permanent "as far as I can tell, it is a perfect match"
He goes on to say it is "superb not only by itself, but for creating a range of quality reliable blacks when mixed with Ultramarine Blue and Transparent Oxide Red. It also yields excellent purples when mixed with blues, and a nice selection of deep reds when combined with the Cadmium Reds or earth reds. I feel that it closes the "permanence gap" that existed on my palette—that I now have a dependable transparent red that I can use without any hesitation".

Einion

impressionist2
01-30-2002, 08:36 PM
Sandokan, Here's another example of alizarin crimson as cabernet. ( detail )This is just the lay-in but it seems to fit the bill.

Lisa, Yes, I saw that in Schmid's book. I think most artists who like AC see the absolute beauty in the pigment. I guess it's like all beauty, it fades in time.

Einion, Thank you. I am going to look into Quinacridone Carmine. That sounds like a real possibility.

sandokan
02-05-2002, 11:16 AM
I'm beginning to understand.
Thank you, impressionist2.
And is there any other colour that works like alizarin crimsom?
Not in the red range, I mean...
Thank you.

For instance, ochers...
I don't know, in this moment I cannot play with colors, but only with tones.
In fact, I have to learn about seeing in tones (I'm doing some charcoal sketches).
In some months I hope to put my hand on a color tube, and then...
Haaa, ha, haaaa, hahahah!!!!
Bye!

BRIDGES
02-11-2002, 06:38 PM
Impressionist 2 One of the other alizarin colors (mixtures)I did not see mention was adding a touch to yellow ochre those to together -when white is added gives you a beautiful flesh tone.work it out, As all flesh has yellow in it, says my beauty consultant it gives a nice skin color you can experiment. Adding a little of each and then the white ,keep the same tone darker areas for shadows. and then there is blue and alizarin wow!Bridges.

iyoung
02-12-2002, 12:13 PM
I too love Alizarin Crimson. It is a deeply gorgeous pigment, and color matches do not adequately substitute unless your working method does not particularly relate to qualities other than hue.

In watercolor, I do not think it can be replaced at all. It has a jelly brilliance of transparency in any strength which interacts with the white of glossy papers like Fabriano to produce those notes of true pure organic beauty that make watercolorists weep for joy. In mixture with other pure transparent pigments it holds it's brilliance, and for reproducing the glow of lifeblood under skin it is superb. It maintains its temperature at any strength, too.

I use it for portraits, and everything else. My customers understand that watercolor pigment choices are mine to make and possible impermanence exists. I care about the tactile quality of my pigments against my paper. I don't particularly care if my paintings outlive my descendents in every detail. It's perfectly alright with me if future painters paint something to replace an old faded one of mine. I'm happy to make space for them.

Ilene

arourapope
02-12-2002, 08:38 PM
There's a thread about this in the Oil Painting forum actually. http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32058
This is the first I've heard of this, and I'm completely heartbroken. AC is one of my most favorite colors. :( I've been using windsor newton. Anyone know how quickly that fades? My pomogranate painting is going to be non-existant!
:( :( :( :(
Aurora

Andrew
02-13-2002, 10:14 AM
There is a series of pigments that are entirely synthetic that are considered permenant and mimic various hues of Alizarin crimson. There was some debate over them in the early to mid 90's over their use in dyes and coatings for pharmaceuticals (which is how they came to my attention). If I still have the articles (no promises - I left that FDA nonsense behind), I will post the reference. I don't know if any paint manufactures have put this newer technology to use.

Slipping back into my beret . . .

What I do recall for watercolors anyway, is that there is a good mixture of two permanent colors to make Alizarin Crimson. I believe it is in one of Wendon Blakes books. He doesn't care for the fugitive nature of the pigment either and prefers and (at least in his books) perfers a limited pallet.

Andrew

Einion
02-13-2002, 08:39 PM
Ilene in case you're unfamiliar with the superb <A HREF=http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/wmap.html>Handprint</A> site check it out. As I was only saying elsewhere just now, check out the section on <A HREF=http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/sitefsc.html>crimsons</A>, definitely worth a gander if you think it's irreplaceable. BTW, you're in good company, Turner felt about the same about how his paintings stood up, even though Mr. Winsor chided him about it :(

Nice painting Aurora, like the viewpoint and the colours. A UV-protecting varnish and hanging not too close to a window will help a lot FWIW. Even without these steps in oils you have a couple of decades at least, be interesting if you take a pic of it then and compare the two on screen, see if you can see any changes. Have you made any moves to a replacement as yet? If you choose one of the options that is not a close match I'm sure it won't take you too long to adjust, many people are surprised at how easy it is.

Einion

arourapope
02-13-2002, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by Einion

Nice painting Aurora, like the viewpoint and the colours. A UV-protecting varnish and hanging not too close to a window will help a lot FWIW. Even without these steps in oils you have a couple of decades at least, be interesting if you take a pic of it then and compare the two on screen, see if you can see any changes. Have you made any moves to a replacement as yet? If you choose one of the options that is not a close match I'm sure it won't take you too long to adjust, many people are surprised at how easy it is.

Einion

Thank-you, Einion. Do you have any suggestions for a varnish? This piece is actually spoken for, but I'm sure I can get it back when it's ready to be varnished. The house it will be hanging in is pretty dark too.....should help out a bit.
I went by Michael's this evening to pick up some pieces I had dropped off to have framed, and picked up a tube of Windsor-Newton Permanent Alziron to try out. (They didn't have Gamblin). So I'll let you all know how that goes.
Aurora

Einion
02-17-2002, 11:45 PM
Sorry, can't remember the name of any UV-absorbing varnishes off the top of my head but they would be clearly identified as such on the label or in an online supplier's listings, I know W&N make a couple and I'm sure a number of others brands offer them too. The dark house will help a lot :)

Einion

impressionist2
02-18-2002, 07:37 AM
Everyone's comments have made me think of a possibility to ensure that modern painters alizarin crimson problems might be solved another way.

Imagine if we had perfect digital photos of all the old masters paintings right after they were completed.

Think of the help that would be to restorers.

Two variables. One is that sometimes it takes centuries before an artist is "discovered". Two, would be the expense. since only the best digital photography would do, plus it would have to filed.

Renee

walden
02-18-2002, 08:12 AM
The cost of high quality digital photography should drop dramatically next year-- a new sensor has been invented-- check out this article in the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/11/technology/11FOVE.html

If artists photograph their paintings and store the images on a cd in simple, widely-used file formats, they should be available for a long, long time to come. The cd is stable when stored properly, and extracting the image will always be possible-- specialized labs still have equipment that will read the oldest motion picture film, for instance, and cd technology today is much more widely distributed than that ever was.

Think of the wonderful possibilities-- if an artist captures their work digitally over the years, future art historians and curators can really analyze their development intelligently and mount wonderful, comprehensive retrospectives. And, as you say, conservators can easily restore and maintain the paintings to their original quality.

I do document my own work just for my own satisfaction-- I'm NOT counting on anyone needing it for their exhibition of 21st century master painters :) -- but it's nice to look back and see how far I've come.