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Wayne Gaudon
01-26-2002, 02:26 AM
Hi, I am switching from water soluble to Grumbacher Pre-Tested. Using the water soluble, I like to wet the canvas with linseed oil, rub it in, wipe it down and then paint into the linseed oil.

Is there a medium for real oil that will allow me to do this and perhaps speed the drying process at the same time. Don't want to use turps and don't want to mix it in the paint .. just want to rub it or brush it on and then paint into it.

I see there is a copal medium .. how does it work?

Thanks,

Michael2
01-26-2002, 11:46 AM
You might want to try Liquin, an alkyd medium manufactured by Winsor & Newton. It dries very fast indeed, and theoretically it dries to a non yellowing and more flexible paint film than linseed oil (although the archivability of Liquin has been much debated--there are those who don't believe the manufacturer's claims and they say you shouldn't use it).

As a general rule, alkyd mediums sold for oil painting have odorless mineral spirits premixed in, because without diluting the alkyd resin with mineral spirits, it would be too thick for most painting applications. Liquin, by volume, is approximately 50% alkyd resin and 50% mineral spirits.

kiwicockatoo
01-26-2002, 02:00 PM
Artist, that is the exact method I used to paint my rose. Worked like a charm and the longest any area took to dry was 2 days - but then I paint fairly thin. I just found the paints went on so much better if I put the linseed oil down first, instead of mixing it in on the pallet. Give it a try!
Brenda

Wayne Gaudon
01-26-2002, 03:29 PM
Brenda,
.. yes, I stumbled on that somewhere on this site and gave it a go and it works wonders and that is why I was wondering if there was something a little better than just pure linseed oil .. sure is smooth isn't it and no mashing the color to pieces before you brush it on.

online art
01-27-2002, 01:25 PM
Hi Artist,

I use pretty much the method you described, i.e. rubbing the oil in, then wiping off before painting into it, with most of my wildlife paintings. It sure makes painting fur much easier!!!

Jason
www.onlineartdemos.co.uk

cobalt fingers
01-27-2002, 09:20 PM
i like and use liquin. I do not like how it works when trying to "oil up". Poppyseed oil will yellow less and wan't become sticky so fast as Liquin. You might just fiddle with cobalt drier (no relation) mixed into your paints to speed drying. Different colors like the trans dry slow-earth pigments faster so you must learn to mix according to the color. I don't think putting two drops into the white is a good answer. Using too much white is about the most common error I've ever seen when artists are learning. I hope this helps. Tim

guillot
01-27-2002, 09:56 PM
Hi Artist,

Just wanted to put in my vote for Liquin. It's an oil modified alkyd resin. It works like a charm! Don't let the color (of the Liquin) discourage you though. It doesn't alter the color of the paint at all. Not even white.

Sometimes though, I put down linseed oil first, and work my colors on the canvas. I guess it depends on what your doing and the results your looking for. But, if your looking for something to speed up the drying time, give Liquin a try. I think you'll like it :D !

Tina

G.L. Hoff
01-29-2002, 01:12 AM
I'll vote for Liquin (there are other alkyd resin mediums, btw) because it makes the paint go on smoothly and dries quick. On the other hand, some people (not me) have related delamination or peeling of the Liquin-based layers in short periods. I've no idea why this might happen, and it hasn't happened to any of my work. One of the things I like least about Liquin is the "draggy" feel I get when it's beginning to set up. I also like plain linseed oil or nut oil, sometimes with just a touch of resin (Canada balsam) to make it stickier. Doesn't dry as fast as Liquin, tho... Just my two cents.

blondheim12
01-29-2002, 05:59 AM
I am using Belize Copal now for medium. I did try Liquin a few years ago and did not care for it at all. It is very thick and gloppy. I prefer a thinner medium.
I really like the copal. It makes the paint set up beautifully, leaves a soft sheen to the paint after drying, so that I don't have to worry about the paint dulling as it dries before varnishing. It dries to touch in a couple of days. A very nice product. I use it on my panel (masonite) paintings.
Love,
Linda
http://pleinairflorida.org

sarkana
01-29-2002, 09:09 AM
i'm firmly in the liquin-hating camp. it has yellowed on me and even turned black. plus i hate the smell.

laying down some linseed oil on the canvas is probably still a fine technique with water-insoluble oils. in fact, rob at studioproducts.com recommends a spraying of the canvas with a largely linseed oil mixture to get his patented effects in portraiture. check it out at:

www.studioproducts.com/demo/demo.html

and click on "spray medium"

cnfwriter
01-29-2002, 10:16 AM
Hi, I am switching from water soluble to Grumbacher Pre-Tested.

I've read a number of disparaging remarks about the quality of Grumbacher paints. There's a thread on the Cennini forum that might help you select a better brand of paint -- http://www.studioproducts.com/forum/forum.html (under General Q&A/Rembrandt vs. W/N)

Is there a medium for real oil that will allow me to do this and perhaps speed the drying process at the same time. Don't want to use turps and don't want to mix it in the paint.. just want to rub it or brush it on and then paint into it.

Check out Studio Product's mediums while you're there, particularly their Maroger's Medium and Spray Medium.

I see there is a copal medium .. how does it work?

I assume since you're talking about using Grumbacher paints that you mean Copal Medium also produced by Grumbacher. Grumbacher's copal medium is simply false advertising and blatant deception. If you read the contents, it's really alkyd in disguise without a drop of copal in it. Not a few artists are upset over this deception.

cnfwriter
01-29-2002, 10:32 AM
Some people (not me) have related delamination or peeling of the Liquin-based layers in short periods. I've no idea why this might happen, and it hasn't happened to any of my work.

I've read some comments about this problem too. There's been much heated debate on both sides of this issue.

I have my suspicions that the delamination problem that some experience might be the result of using too much Liquin per paint, causing the paint to dry so hard that subsequent layers have a difficult time adhering. Sort of like the problem you get when trying to paint over too thick a layer of acrylic underpainting.

Just my personal thoughts though.

G.L. Hoff
01-29-2002, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by cnfwriter


I have my suspicions that the delamination problem that some experience might be the result of using too much Liquin per paint, causing the paint to dry so hard that subsequent layers have a difficult time adhering. Sort of like the problem you get when trying to paint over too thick a layer of acrylic underpainting.

Could be. Let me clarify my earlier comments about Liquin, too. I only use it on studies or sketches, but it's always worked fine without yellowing or darkening. I'm just leery of it for comissions or when I'm working for $. In those cases I generally use stand oil diluted with turps or oil of spike lavender and a touch of Canada balsam. Generally dries fast enough for me. I've also used wax medium (from Studio Products, natch)--give the stiff paint I use a really buttery, lovely consistency as it goes on with a fine, matte finish.

cnfwriter
01-29-2002, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by G.L. Hoff
In those cases I generally use stand oil diluted with turps or oil of spike lavender and a touch of Canada balsam. Generally dries fast enough for me.

Do you mix your own pigments into the stand/turp/balsam mixture or use it as a medium for tube oils?

I've recently been experimenting with mixing my own paints. I've tried an egg/stand/damar mixture as an underpainting. Dries in about a minute or two. Have been mixing a 1:1 ratio of stand/damar and using it in small measure as a medium with tube paints.

How long does it take for your stand/turp/balsam mixture to dry?

Wayne Gaudon
01-29-2002, 02:32 PM
I've read a number of disparaging remarks about the quality of Grumbacher paints

Anyone else have any comments on Grumbacher Paints? I would have thought they would be very good paints but what do I know.

Scott Methvin
01-29-2002, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by artist
I've read a number of disparaging remarks about the quality of Grumbacher paints

Anyone else have any comments on Grumbacher Paints? I would have thought they would be very good paints but what do I know.

I think their Pre-Tested thalo blue is a perfect cyan. That is the primary blue. Haven't used much else.

henrik
01-29-2002, 04:33 PM
I use a mix of liquin and linsseed oil, and I also thin it down with (odourless) turp when needed. For me this gives me a drying time of about 24 hours but with a nicer gloss than the somewhat "rubbery" liquin.

An artist friend suggested liquin/linseed/turp in equal parts - this produces a very nice flowing medium with a decent drying time. I liked this mix for detailed work.

G.L. Hoff
01-29-2002, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by cnfwriter


Do you mix your own pigments into the stand/turp/balsam mixture or use it as a medium for tube oils?

Nope, I use it as a medium for tube oils. Mostly I do what the Impressionists disliked: paint "into the soup" for glazing. (That medium works really well for glazing.) When I do alla prima work I generally add a drop or two of medium to tube paint to improve consistency, but I must admit that I like oil of spike and stand oil mixed in roughly equal amounts for that purpose, usually without any added resin. From what I know of others (not a lot, really) those proportions can be changed depending on personal preference.


I've recently been experimenting with mixing my own paints. I've tried an egg/stand/damar mixture as an underpainting. Dries in about a minute or two. Have been mixing a 1:1 ratio of stand/damar and using it in small measure as a medium with tube paints.

How long does it take for your stand/turp/balsam mixture to dry?

That mix takes a couple of days, maybe three tops, unless I've added clove oil on the pallette (to the paint) as a retarder. Then it can take up to a week. Haven't done anything with egg emulsions, although Rob Howard (over on the Cennini Forum) swears by those as underpainting media, for the same reason you mentioned: quick drying. Does dammar help that medium in some way or can you get by without it?

cnfwriter
01-29-2002, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by G.L. Hoff
Haven't done anything with egg emulsions, although Rob Howard (over on the Cennini Forum) swears by those as underpainting media, for the same reason you mentioned: quick drying.

Yes, I'm very pleased with egg/oil emulsions. The cool thing is that one could paint entirely this way all the way up to completion if they wanted. You can adjust to make the emulsion a bit more oily (and slower drying) with each layer to conform to the fat/lean rule. You could go from a mixture that allows quick underpainting that dries in a minute or two up to a mixture that takes a couple of hours to dry.

Does dammar help that medium in some way or can you get by without it?

I tried using the mixture without damar, but wound up with a slower drying, sticky paint layer. From what I've been able to uncover, damar is usually added 1:1 with stand oil for three reasons -- 1) damar counteracts stand oil's tendancy to buckle as it dries; 2) damar is a resin, like balsam, and contributes to the drying time; 3) damar enhances the stability of the paint layer.

I was somewhat concerned about using damar at first because of its resoluable nature (being a soft resin that can be removed with turps). Rob mentioned that he did a microscopic examination on a test strip of damar/stand and found that when damar is used with stand, the oil encapsulates damar on a microscopic level, effectively neutralizing the resoluability of damar. He said he soaked the test strip in turpentine for quite a while and the resulting paint that was lifted was negligable.

Kind of interesting that the old masters got a lot of stuff (like using stand and damar) right without the modern day science information available to us.

That being said, you don't have to limit youself to damar. Your canadian balsam used in an egg/oil emulsion would be interesting to try. There are so many combinative possibilities that surely one could find an emulsion mixture that did just what they wanted.

I talked with a guy on the Society of Tempera Painters forum who used egg/oil with amazing effectiveness. Provides a discussion of his technique here:

http://rtdavis.com/painttec.html

raison d etre
01-29-2002, 09:47 PM
I have C.O.P.D. so I try and use the least amount of turps as I can. I found Turpenoid Natural on the shelf at the art supply store and read on the label that is was a great brush cleaner and medium.

After a couple of sessions with it as just a cleaner, conditioner, I decided to try it as a medium in the very thin transluscent layering I was doing, because it felt like silk on the brush. It worked beautifully, My colors went on just like I thought they would.

Next day, I'm cruising through Sam Flax art supply, and noticed a flyer on the sheld next to the Natural. It stated, that although this stuff "could" be used as a meduim, It should never be used unless the under layers were "completely dry and hard to the touch!!! That use of this product would cause shrinkage and orange peel etc etc.. Now I come home every night to check on my work to see if it has changed. I'm afraid to put in any more layers with anything else over top if this.

Don't you think the information on the flyer should have been posted on the CAN! Has anyone been as foolish as I and had any good luck. I'd like to hear from you before I throw this lovely peice in the trash. I guess you can tell I'm a little upset by this but geeez. This is my baby, it's an angel painting that I've spent a great deal on time on.

G.L. Hoff
01-29-2002, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by cnfwriter


I tried using the mixture without damar, but wound up with a slower drying, sticky paint layer. From what I've been able to uncover, damar is usually added 1:1 with stand oil for three reasons -- 1) damar counteracts stand oil's tendancy to buckle as it dries; 2) damar is a resin, like balsam, and contributes to the drying time; 3) damar enhances the stability of the paint layer.

Pretty much what I thought about dammar in the medium...I suppose you could use Canadian balsam in the mix, with similar results. Certainly sounds like something I'll experiment with--do a few studies. I like quicker drying underpaintings, so Liquin (or occasionally acrylics) has been useful. But the egg-emulsion idea sounds ideal. More later, after I've given it a shot.

Regards

G.L. Hoff
01-29-2002, 10:55 PM
[i]I found Turpenoid Natural on the shelf at the art supply store and read on the label that is was a great brush cleaner and medium.

a flyer stated that although this stuff "could" be used as a meduim, it should never be used unless the under layers were "completely dry and hard to the touch!!! That use of this product would cause shrinkage and orange peel etc etc..
Has anyone been as foolish as I and had any good luck. I'd like to hear from you before I throw this lovely peice in the trash. I guess you can tell I'm a little upset by this but geeez. This is my baby, it's an angel painting that I've spent a great deal on time on. [/B]

I used Turpenoid a long while ago without any significant problems, but I never used it as a glazing medium, the way it sounds like you did. Let me say up front that I claim no expertise, only my own experience, but Turpenoid is not much different from mineral spirits (paint thinner) and as such is most likely going to dilute the oil and pigment in your paint so that you won't have a very strong paint film and the glaze may be weak. It's much better to glaze using oil (I use stand oil) mixed with a diluent (I like oil of spike lavender, which is pricey but wonderful stuff--you can get it from Studio Products, among other sources). Another point: turpentine has an odor and might cause your COPD to act up, but Turpenoid, although essentially odorless, can do the same thing. Just because a chemical doesn't smell doesn't mean it can't affect the airways; moreover, *not* having a smell may actually make your exposure worse, since you don't have your nose to warn you. Oil of spike has a lovely scent and so far as I know doesn't cause the kinds of reactions turpentine does. In any case, when you use these kinds of volatile chemicals, you should ventilate your workspace.

Hope that helps.

raison d etre
01-30-2002, 09:08 PM
you really make agood point about the oder masking vapors. Thank you

ReNae