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BrideOfTyr
10-07-2005, 08:17 AM
Hi all,
I'm rapidly approaching the time to buy some more paint (acrylic). That said, I'm revising my limited palette of 6 colours and I'm curious to know if raw and burnt umber are all that different. If so, which would you recommend? My current palette consists of; burnt umber, cadmium yellow med, cadmium red med, mars black, titanium white and ultramarine. All of which are winsor & newton galleria acrylics. Any suggestions?:confused:

Patrick1
10-07-2005, 10:42 AM
In terms of color, Burnt Umber is a dark brown. Raw Umber is also dark but looks a bit greener in comparison, and a bit duller (greyer). Both are opaque and lightfast. Compare the two (click on each color)...

http://www.goldenpaints.com/products/color/heavybody/heavybody.php

Your current pigment selection is good. I personally find Burnt Umber more useful (I don't like Raw Umber's 'green-ness'). But it's up to you...it depends on how you use it.

Also, Burnt Umber + Ultramarine Blue might make Mars Black unnecessary (unless you often use black in your color mixes and would prefer to have a tube of it on hand, or you need the opacity of Mars Black.).

FriendCarol
10-07-2005, 12:45 PM
I don't know if the same is true for acrylics, but raw umber is a great 'yellow' basis for w/c dark skin tones (I like it with cadmium red for some opacity). Also, burnt umber is very easy to make (at least in w/c) by adding a tiny touch of something like phthalo blue to the raw umber (except that the result is 'staining' rather than 'non-staining,' of course; a distinction presumably unnecessary in acrylics). So, I have raw umber on my complete palette, but find no need for burnt umber.

Aren't you glad you asked? :evil: lol

Einion
10-07-2005, 03:26 PM
Hi, yes Burnt Umber and Raw Umber are quite different. I don't think you really need both unless you have a specific use for Raw Umber in mixing; given your existing palette you might find Yellow Ochre more useful and Phthalo Green Blue Shade would be good to improve mixing results between blue and yellow.

Depending on how you paint I'd also recommend you try moving up in quality - the cadmium colours you list are all hues in a range of this level and Galeria paints in general are not that opaque; even within their specific type I think System 3 and A2 are better.

Einion

BrideOfTyr
10-09-2005, 04:36 AM
Thank you all for the advice. I'm taking your advice Patrick and will stick with burnt umber.

Also, Burnt Umber + Ultramarine Blue might make Mars Black unnecessary (unless you often use black in your color mixes and would prefer to have a tube of it on hand, or you need the opacity of Mars Black.).

I only use mars black because I thought I couldn't do without it, I will have a go at using ultramarine and burnt umber as you've suggested, thank you.

Keith2
10-09-2005, 06:14 AM
Raw umber is a cool pale brown, rather transparent.

It's good for underpainting and adding to other colours to cool them down.

Burnt umber is richer and darker and is quite a powerful colour. I've got it although I don't find it much use.

If I were you I'd buy raw umber.

If you want a darker brown, consider buying the more versatile burnt sienna, a warm rich brown (it's a partly neutralised orange). The beauty of burnt sienna is that you can get some interesting near blacks if you mix it with ultramarine blue.

Einion
10-10-2005, 09:35 AM
Raw umber is a cool pale brown, rather transparent.Pale?? :angel:

Being a dark, dull yellow adding Raw Umber would tend to make some other colours 'warmer' if you think in those terms. It would only be with colours that are relatively 'warmer' that it would have a 'cooling' effect.

Burnt umber is richer and darker and is quite a powerful colour. I've got it although I don't find it much use. Shame to waste it, try it as a neutraliser for dark-valued blues, in caucasian skin shadow colours, it's a great base for some darker skin types and it's very useful for painting figuring in wood.

Although you might be right about Burnt Sienna being more versatile than Burnt Umber, you can also get a good range of mixed darks with BU and Ultramarine as mentioned above. It's usually about the same hue as Burnt Sienna so the two pigments can be used in concert in some interesting ways too.

Einion

FriendCarol
10-10-2005, 11:44 AM
Yup, I don't think I could get along without burnt sienna, or at least I'd really miss it. I could survive quite well without an umber, but burnt sienna is SO useful, such a great mixer! I use Winsor green BS in almost every painting, somewhere, but the color I use in 'nearly almost' every painting is probably burnt sienna. :D

Burnt sienna and Winsor green... maybe it's just because I love evergreens? Not that I have a conifer in every picture....

Einion
10-10-2005, 12:42 PM
I used to use Burnt Sienna quite a bit but with a move toward preferring pigments with greater opacity it's become a colour I hardly every use any more, so much so that once it's gone I won't be replacing it in acrylics or oils/alkyds. I'm pretty sure I would use it more in watercolour though.

Einion

Violinagin
10-10-2005, 12:47 PM
I'd use both of them and see which one you like the best. I can't really tell the difference when they are on the pallet, but BOY! Are they sure different when mixing or tinting. I did a piece with only burnt sienna, raw umber, and white and it was a good exercise. It was amazing what raw umber and burnt siena could be made to look like, even if there were only those two colors.

I think it would depend on what you're painting though. I find raw umber great in landscapes, but terrible in portraits. But that's just because of how I paint. I'd play around with them a bit, maybe do a painting with /only/ those two colors and white. I've been wanting to do that for awhile.

FriendCarol
10-10-2005, 02:14 PM
Raw umber (with a bit of cadmium red, and maybe French ultramarine) is great for portraits or figures of dark-skinned people! Once I wanted to add a person on a surfboard in a red bathing suit to a landscape (seascape?). I wanted her to be dark, and the raw umber with Cadmium red worked perfectly.

I don't think raw umber would work at all for light-skinned people, though. And I can't remember that I ever used it for anything else. In w/c, I do think of it as one of my yellows, not a brown. It's a greenish yellow, in the W/N brand.

BrideOfTyr
10-14-2005, 04:53 AM
I think it would depend on what you're painting though. I find raw umber great in landscapes, but terrible in portraits. But that's just because of how I paint.
I paint landscapes and seascapes, so perhaps I should give raw umber a go, eh?

I'd play around with them a bit, maybe do a painting with /only/ those two colors and white. I've been wanting to do that for awhile.
Sounds like a good idea, it makes sense to try both really. Thanks!

beezleblot
10-14-2005, 07:47 AM
Hey, they are earth colors, series one. They are different. Both very useful. Buying cadmiums might entail some hard choices for me but these are so cheap I end up with just about all of them eventually.

Einion
10-14-2005, 01:04 PM
...but these are so cheap...Yeah, there is that! :)

Einion

sfumato1002
10-19-2005, 07:23 PM
What I am about to say might not be correct, I might be totally wrong, and I might even change my opinion in the future, but as of right now, I find that mixing my own earths with ultramarine blue, yellow and red PR209, I can create better 3 dimensionalize color. its hard to explain, but building up color just using these three pigment seems to give me more unity, as I go from shadows to more luminous areas, I will use secondaries to higher the gamut - yellow deeps, greener blues to makes mixes higher in chroma. So in my opinion to you, I would just mix my own earths using RYB and don't use any tube premixed colors, ie. burnt umber, etc.

sfumato1002
10-19-2005, 07:29 PM
I do however like to give my white canvas an imprimatura of burnt sienna,and let it dry and thats it. I find the undertone of burnt sienna gives the ground a good warm hue. But I never use within my painting.

Einion
10-19-2005, 09:59 PM
I must say toning a canvas with Burnt Sienna does make for a very pleasant colour to begin painting on at times.

Einion

sfumato1002
10-20-2005, 08:40 AM
I must say toning a canvas with Burnt Sienna does make for a very pleasant colour to begin painting on at times.

Einion

Thanks for responding einion. It is pleasant. I just did a quick painting using just earths, burnt umber, siena, raw umber and yellow ochre and I must say that the piece looks very rich compared to the RYB earths. Maybe using tube earth colors is better after all. please disregard my prior post regarding earths using RYB. RYB earths are a bit lifeless now that I can compare them. why is painting so complicated? or is it just me? :crying:

Patrick1
10-20-2005, 09:39 AM
I just did a quick painting using just earths, burnt umber, siena, raw umber and yellow ochre and I must say that the piece looks very rich compared to the RYB earths. Maybe using tube earth colors is better after all. please disregard my prior post regarding earths using RYB. RYB earths are a bit lifeless now that I can compare them.Either RYB or an earth palette can give nice results...just experiment and see what works best. I like to use earth colors to do much of the underpainting and then use higher chroma colors where needed to build up the highlights. Sovek touches upon that a bit in this brief lesson:

http://www.sovek.com/view/basics/color/05.htm

I tried mixing Raw Sienna + Burnt Umber to make an earth orange, expecting it to be no problem (with Yellow Ochre + Burnt Sienna, orange is no problem). It was a lot duller and greener looking than I expected when white is added. Maybe I'll have no choice but to use Burnt Sienna or maybe Golden's Burnt Umber Light as the 'red'.

BrideOfTyr
10-21-2005, 02:59 PM
why is painting so complicated? or is it just me?

Nope, it's definitely not just you!

sfumato1002
10-21-2005, 03:46 PM
Either RYB or an earth palette can give nice results.

Thanks patrick1, also i've been getting very good results with CMY plus some secondaries for higher chroma. I think CMY earths are richer than those achieved with RYB.

sfumato1002
10-24-2005, 03:09 PM
I think CMY earths are richer than those achieved with RYB. Never mind. I like RYB better because its much easier to handle.

Einion
10-24-2005, 03:35 PM
LOL - practicality wins out over gamut yet again! :)

Einion

Richard Saylor
10-25-2005, 02:33 AM
LOL - practicality wins out over gamut yet again! :)

EinionYes, and it would be interesting to see a comparison of the gamuts of CMY versus RYGB (RYB + G). I have a feeling that they would be very close.

Einion
10-25-2005, 12:06 PM
Yes, and it would be interesting to see a comparison of the gamuts of CMY versus RYGB (RYB + G). I have a feeling that they would be very close.It's difficult to do this accurately from available information because of the difference between the masstone and undercolour, of 'cyan' and 'magenta' paints in particular, as well as curved mixing lines, but with most RYB palettes the gamut would be noticeably smaller; adding a green will help that area of colour enormously of course and they could well be superior to CMY in mixed violets if the red is of the right type (I'm assuming a blue like Ultramarine here).

So they could be very close in masstone at least, in undercolour (and more so in tint) transparent pigments will tend to have a definite edge so the typical CMY palette will win out overall; since watercolour uses this sort of characteristic as a rule I'm sure the comparisons would be fairly easy to make by eye.

...

Coming back to the differences in mixed earth colours, I think this is one of those classic areas where the strength of a palette is directly related to exactly what one wants - if you're looking to mix a simulation of Red Oxide or Venetian Red, that sort of thing, there's no point in starting with transparent paints. For a simulation of a sienna-like pigment the reverse would be true.

With darker browns like Burnt Umber the darker starting values of two of the three colours in CMY would be invaluable but for ochres there's not too much difference in how close you can get to the basic colour (unsurprisingly) so opacity would be the only real concern. Add all this up and it makes a good case for a split-primary palette if you don't want to paint with earths for some reason.

Einion

Richard Saylor
10-25-2005, 11:05 PM
In the attachment the colors are positioned according to the Handprint Artist's Color Wheel. The black lines connect the colors in my CMY palette. The green lines connect the colors in my RYGB palette. Even accounting for curved mixing lines, the RYGB palette seems to have the larger gamut.

Einion
10-26-2005, 11:45 AM
Yep, from masstone colour readings it would appear that the four-colour palette has the edge.

Einion

Patrick1
10-26-2005, 02:19 PM
In the attachment the colors are positioned according to the Handprint Artist's Color Wheel. The black lines connect the colors in my CMY palette. The green lines connect the colors in my RYGB palette. Even accounting for curved mixing lines, the RYGB palette seems to have the larger gamut.It seems that way, but I have a cautionary question: how closely does this reflect the actual gamut? I wish drollere or someone with the means could post an actual, measured & plotted gamut of both these palettes to see how closely they compare to this.

Richard Saylor
10-26-2005, 02:50 PM
Well, even if the gamuts are about the same, most people would agree that RYGB is easier to use. Adding green to the familiar RYB palette is a simple way to nicely balance an otherwise green-deficient gamut.

FriendCarol
10-26-2005, 05:43 PM
...and, besides, Leonardo would approve. :D (It was Leonardo da Vinci who said there were 4 artist's primaries, right?)

Have you posted anything painted with your new palette yet? (We're already waaay off the subject, so it can't matter, right?)

Richard Saylor
10-27-2005, 03:34 PM
Have you posted anything painted with your new palette yet??Not yet. I haven't done any serious painting for about two months. It has been too humid here. Soon, I hope.

sfumato1002
10-27-2005, 05:09 PM
if you don't want to paint with earths for some reason.


no. your right einion. why would anybody cast aside earth colors? for some reason I use to think earths were useless, but not anymore. from reading these posts, I have experimented more. just now I've come to realize how important earth colors really are... and black as well. although my main colors are still RYBG (my G is pb16) , I will start using eaths and black, because they bring a richness I cannot get with just RYBG. my favorite earth mixture is some pure yellow mixed with raw umber, it makes a beautiful olive hue for verdure and other things I supposed. Anyway, thanks everybody for sharing.

artcourses
10-31-2005, 09:38 AM
Here's an idea which works for me with questionable colors.
Mix the color in question with white for tint, then the comparison will
be easier to self view.

AustinM
10-31-2005, 04:57 PM
I agree. I find that coming into the browns from the color spectrum is better. Modulating the color and values is easier and better; and the colors have more dimension.

FriendCarol
11-01-2005, 07:12 AM
Hi, artcourses, by 'questionable colors' I am guessing you mean colors hard to identify? Here's how I do it -- please let me know if this works for you. In your mind, clearly visualize or imagine a red, or a green, or a blue, etc. Then look at the actual color. Then 'look' back at the imagined color in your mind, and do a comparison: Ask yourself if any of the imagined color is in the color before you.

To me it seems fairly easy to identify colors, even under odd conditions (shadows, etc.). I'm not sure what makes it easy, though. Maybe it was my 40 years of frustration trying to match the 24 pan colors in my Pelikan gouache box with colors in the world! LOL Those really don't mix, and in those days I didn't even know they weren't what other people meant by 'watercolor.' So I kept looking at the world, perhaps getting better and better at seeing the colors in it -- while making no progress at all towards being able to paint what I saw! (Fortunately for my sanity, I only painted representationally about twice a year back then, before I took up watercolor seriously a couple years ago.)

When I used gouache pans, mostly I did meditative 'abstract' stuff, not representational work. My two favorite colors were the turquoise and vermillion, but I used them in minute quantities. The pans that emptied first were always earth colors, particularly burnt sienna, yellow ochre, and burnt umber. And now I don't even have the latter two on my palette! (Though I do use gold ochre, and mix burnt umber if I want it.)

Btw, does anyone else love the rich purply brown mixed from Winsor blue RS with Perm. Aliz. crimson? I just love that color, which I discovered by accident (as a novice, I tried to make black, but used the wrong phthalo color :D ). It's especially wonderful for the fall season. ;)

sfumato1002
11-06-2005, 04:41 AM
I agree. I find that coming into the browns from the color spectrum is better. Modulating the color and values is easier and better; and the colors have more dimension.

Yes its easier and you do achieve dimension with less effort, but, and this is a big but, you do loose chroma. I've tried mixing earths with RYB, RYB plus black, CMY, but the problem that I find is that these earths are somewhat greyer and a little more lifeless than using tube earth colors such as pure raw umber or burnt umber. so regarding the original question, raw or burnt umber? I would say both, plus burn siena, and other earths you can get your hands on. Then I think you can always intensify these earths with more brighter colors (RYBG) as needed or shade even more with black.

Patrick1
11-06-2005, 02:55 PM
I've tried mixing earths with RYB, RYB plus black, CMY, but the problem that I find is that these earths are somewhat greyer and a little more lifeless than using tube earth colors such as pure raw umber or burnt umber.With any three RYB or CMY primaries, plus white, you can mix earths a lot higher in chroma than real earths...as you even mentioned. Just play around with the proportions (less of the complement). Though you might need to use transparent primaries to get dark, 'saturated' earths like Transparent Red Iron Oxide for example.

sfumato1002
11-06-2005, 03:33 PM
With any three RYB or CMY primaries, plus white, you can mix earths a lot higher in chroma than real earths...as you even mentioned. Just play around with the proportions (less of the complement). Though you might need to use transparent primaries to get dark, 'saturated' earths like Transparent Red Iron Oxide for example.

I find that if I add white to my RYB earths I notice they become lower in chroma than tube earths when white is added on them. I've done paintings using RYB and CMY, But the new paintings I did using tube earth colors just seem a lot warmer, or richer in the earth tones. I think CMY creates richer earths than RYB, and CMY earths can be compared with tube earths, but to me, CMY is difficult to handle and I still fail to make enough earth hues such as burnt sienna or burn umber within my painitng. I know how to mix these colors, its elementary, I just find that using tube earths these tones are added automatically. the painting looks warmer and more glowing, and that's the look I'm looking for. Also, to me RYB (Quinacridone red PR209, Cad yellow light, Ultramarine blue) earths are lower in chroma than tube earths, --specially when white is added--.

FriendCarol
11-07-2005, 05:47 AM
Ultramarine gets 'dull' quickly when not used at its peak dilution. You might want to try 'cobalt blue deep' (if you can find this relatively new pigment in your medium, and your brand!). It's almost the same hue, but more colorful over a wider range of dilution. Wondering now if anyone is going to scold me for saying 'colorful.' :D

sfumato1002
11-07-2005, 10:33 AM
Ultramarine gets 'dull' quickly when not used at its peak dilution. That is very true. You might want to try 'cobalt blue deep' (if you can find this relatively new pigment in your medium, and your brand!). It's almost the same hue, but more colorful over a wider range of dilutionthanks, I do have Maimeri Puro cobalt blue deep, but I think its to light in value to be a primary, but it's a great blue to have.

bennie
11-07-2005, 04:45 PM
Maimeri cobalt blue deep ...
in watercolors:
this is pigment PB28, the same as Maimeri cobalt blue light
and it is not the pigment PB73 that FriendCarol refers to I suppose

extra complicating:
Cobalt pigments PB28 and PB73 etc. may differ in hue, but have a similar value range. They are (much) lighter than ultramarine and phtalo blues,
so the name "deep" does not refer to the value range.

extra extra complicating:
there are several pigments refered to as "cobalt blue deep": PB72, PB73, PB74 (and then the PB28 as Maimeri does). Moreover, there are a lot of paints called "cobalt" that actually contain ultramarine blue pigment (and then, white is added, so still a limited value range ...)

the advantage that cobalt blue deep should have, is not the increased value range, but more colorfull over a wider range of dilution