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Roan
02-22-2001, 09:28 AM
Gang,

I've had a similar discussion going on over in the Studio Forum. Sandra Fletcher and I got into pastel framing methods, so I'm going to copy the relevent parts of the conversation over here for the rest of you. Feel free to jump in, disagree, share your wisdom, educate :P

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<FONT face="Script MT Bold"><FONT COLOR="#AB4835"><FONT size="5">Roan</FONT s></FONT c></FONT f>
<FONT COLOR="#8A1010">Call caraid tadhal tric, 's call caraid tadhal ainmig.</FONT c>
-- <FONT size="1">Friends are lost by calling often, and by calling seldom.</FONT s>
RoanStudio.com (http://RoanStudio.com) &lt;-- pastel open stock vendor sources & reviews!

Roan
02-22-2001, 09:29 AM
From Sandra:
It takes me ages. And I hate it! http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/mad.gif Just when you think it's all going together, you see that bit of pastel dust that's fallen on the matt and it all has to come apart again.

Plus, they all have to be taken apart and cleaned in between shows.

I wonder why I do pastels. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif
sandra

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http://www.fletcherfineart.com

[This message has been edited by Roan (edited February 22, 2001).]

Roan
02-22-2001, 09:31 AM
From Carly:

Sandra, I saw an article about framing pastels so that the dust fell behind the matting instead of on the front side of it. Maybe Phyllis saw it in one of the magazines. I frame oils and acrylics on canvas most of the time...love it...very simple. If the frame fits...you're done!

Now watercolors are something else!! Mats, backing, corners, framing, covering the back...I'd like to just sell mine paper and paint only! I suppose all artists hate the framing part! At least I've never heard of one that loved it.
carly

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"Everything is not art and Art is not everything, but it comes close."....carly

Roan
02-22-2001, 09:32 AM
From Moi:

I hear you, Sandra! :P

Carly:

The process for framing pastels is the same as watercolors, except we use some sort of spacer as well. Unfortunately, the spacers only help while the painting is hanging up, not while you are framing. Spacers don't help much when you have the painting turned over and are carefully trying to put points in and a dust cover on http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/frown.gif

I've only had one painting that wasn't on velour that gave me a lot of trouble and I ended up redoing it FOUR times!

Since it's so time-consuming, WHY are we doing our own framing? Is it to save money? I mean, I can't justify it, as I'm not selling anything right now, but if I take the time I spend doing the framing, multiply that by a per hour wage and add it to the raw materials, I bet it would be just as cost effective to have a framer do it.

Let's see:
I paid about $80 for my frame and materials and spent 4 hours framing it. If I paid myself $10 an hour -- and I'm sure any of you would charge more than that -- that would be $120. I can get the same size painting framed locally for $157. Lot of work to save a measely 30 bucks.

I can't justify it, myself, $30 is $30, but how about everyone else?

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<FONT face="Script MT Bold"><FONT COLOR="#AB4835"><FONT size="5">Roan</FONT s></FONT c></FONT f>
<FONT COLOR="#8A1010">Call caraid tadhal tric, 's call caraid tadhal ainmig.</FONT c>
-- <FONT size="1">Friends are lost by calling often, and by calling seldom.</FONT s>
RoanStudio.com (http://RoanStudio.com) <-- pastel open stock vendor sources & reviews

[This message has been edited by Roan (edited February 22, 2001).]

Roan
02-22-2001, 09:33 AM
From Sandra:

Originally posted by Roan:
The process for framing pastels is the same as watercolors, except we use some sort of spacer as well. Unfortunately, the spacers only help while the painting is hanging up, not while you are framing. Spacers don't help much when you have the painting turned over and are carefully trying to put points in and a dust cover on http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/frown.gif


Hi Roan!
I keep hearing about spacers. I haven't used them yet and wonder if you could tell me more about them. What are they made from? Where do they go in the framing sandwich?

Any info appreciated http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif
thanks
sandra

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http://www.fletcherfineart.com

Roan
02-22-2001, 09:34 AM
Me Again:
Hope I don't cloud the subject with these. I couldn't find my original images and redid them rather fast:

<IMG SRC="http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/lib/17-Feb-2001/framing_frontview.gif" border=0>

Just a front view of the entire sandwich. Hrm, better explain what this all is for people who haven't framed pastels before.

Assuming your mat width is 3" -- this method requires a square of foamboard cut to about 2" wide. This gives a 1" gap between the edge of the mat and the foam and ensures you can't see the spacer very well. Couple of methods to "hang" the painting inside: some people hinge the back and the spacer, some people hinge the painting to the spacer, and some people hinge the painting to the backboard, and so forth. If I'm framing sanded or suede, I hinge the painting to the inside of the spacer because the hinging tape doesn't stick to suede or sanded too well.

The acrylic spacer I've depicted here comes in 5' lengths of 1/4 to 1/2 thickness. It's pretty thin and has self sticking tape. If you are framing without a mat, it goes directly on the glass, flush against the frame. That way it's hidden by the rabbet. The painting rests on the spacer. I only use this for board paintings, because if you use any surface that will bend, it will fold and touch the glass when you flip the frame over to insert your points. Sometimes it will pop out from behind the spacer and get stuck, too.

If you are framing with a mat, you can stick the acrylic spacers right on the backing board or on the back of the mat. Your painting may flop around when you put points in. I don't usually use these at all unless I'm framing without a mat.

<IMG SRC="http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/lib/17-Feb-2001/framing_sandwich1.gif" border=0>

Here's the sandwich view. The foam spacer goes all the way around the painting, of course, as does the mat. The painting, when lying on it's front, rests on the spacer away from the glass. I did a cross-section so it would be easier to see.

<IMG SRC="http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/lib/17-Feb-2001/framing_sandwich_tiered.gif" border=0>

The above is an alternate method I sorta developed for framing pieces that are too narrow to get any support from a foam core spacer. I use pieces of mat rag and "tier" them. The last couple of layers usually end up 2 1/2" wide. When you flip the frame over, the painting will rest on the last layer and stay away from the glass. You do have to be careful when you turn the painting over, though. The last tier is very thin and you can't really see it when you look at the painting on a wall, either.

The foam board spacers don't have to be continuous. In other words, you can cut strips and create a square using hinging tape. Same with the tiered method. I hate throwing odds and ends away.

Comments? Suggestions?

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<FONT face="Script MT Bold"><FONT COLOR="#AB4835"><FONT size="5">Roan</FONT s></FONT c></FONT f>
<FONT COLOR="#8A1010">Call caraid tadhal tric, 's call caraid tadhal ainmig.</FONT c>
-- <FONT size="1">Friends are lost by calling often, and by calling seldom.</FONT s>
RoanStudio.com (http://RoanStudio.com) <-- pastel open stock vendor sources & reviews!

Roan
02-22-2001, 09:35 AM
Sandra:

Roan, thank you so much. That is terrific! I have printed it off for future reference. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

One thing that did occur to me is: do I need to do a bit more painting round the edges of my painting? Currently I hinge my picture to the matt (as I have not been using a spacer). So, the work only has to be as big as the hole in the matt. If there is a gap between the matt and the painting, presumably there is the possibility for the viewer to peek round the edge of the matt. Does that make sense? What I'm wondering is: do you have to make your work a bit bigger and by how much?

thanks
sandra

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http://www.fletcherfineart.com

Roan
02-22-2001, 09:36 AM
Me Again, Last One:

Originally posted by sandrafletcher:
Roan, thank you so much. That is terrific! I have printed it off for future reference. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Glad to be of help, Sandra! I'm going to post a copy of this in the pastels forum as well.

One thing that did occur to me is: do I need to do a bit more painting round the edges of my painting? Currently I hinge my picture to the matt (as I have not been using a spacer). So, the work only has to be as big as the hole in the matt. If there is a gap between the matt and the painting, presumably there is the possibility for the viewer to peek round the edge of the matt. Does that make sense? What I'm wondering is: do you have to make your work a bit bigger and by how much?

I do my prelim drawings on newsprint and measure out an extra 1/2" on all sides. Then I use either black, white, or red Saral transfer paper (no wax, no graphite) to transfer the drawing to the surface. It's easy to take my pen or pencil and follow the outline edges of the newsprint to make a border directly on the surface. Heh, don't press too hard tho, or if you decide to go beyond the 1/2" you'll have an impression you have to fill with pastel :P

I try to aim for that 1/2" extra, but there are times when I forget or the extra 1/2" looks good and I want to frame beyond that. That's why I developed that tiered method. I know it's hard to really see how it works, but it does allow you to have a narrower painting. Usually people have the foam spacer sit directly against the painting to hold it, a true sandwich -- like you do with your mat board. The tiered method just keeps it away from the glass by about 1/2 to 1/4". It's floppy if you're not careful, but it's a solution :P Course, another solution is to frame without a mat, which is what I'm going to do with my next piece.


Hope this helps!

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<FONT face="Script MT Bold"><FONT COLOR="#AB4835"><FONT size="5">Roan</FONT s></FONT c></FONT f>
<FONT COLOR="#8A1010">Call caraid tadhal tric, 's call caraid tadhal ainmig.</FONT c>
-- <FONT size="1">Friends are lost by calling often, and by calling seldom.</FONT s>
RoanStudio.com (http://RoanStudio.com) <-- pastel open stock vendor sources & reviews!

nancymae
02-22-2001, 10:24 AM
Roan...your work here is incredible!! Thanks for all the information. I am a new pastelist..and framer...and I'm having a hard time visualizing what you are saying. Would you consider doing a framing workshop with pictures the next time you frame something???? I'm sure more than me would be interested. Anyone else??????

Thanks!!!

Nancy

Roan
02-22-2001, 10:52 AM
Thank you, Nancy http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

I'll certainly consider that, however I don't want to commit myself until I hear from Diane and several others.

Mine is just one way. Whether or not it's the right way may be a matter of contention :P Diane has been in pastels FAR longer than I -- I've only been doing pastels since August of 1999. Heck, I've only been painting since then. A little over a year.

Anyhow, Diane is one of the experts that I rely on to tell me if I'm out to lunch or not and if I do a workshop for WC!, I'd want to incorporate any and all advice that she, or Barry or anyone else, may have as well.

So, take that as a yes, but with more information from others first :P

Again, thanks!

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<FONT face="Script MT Bold"><FONT COLOR="#AB4835"><FONT size="5">Roan</FONT s></FONT c></FONT f>
<FONT COLOR="#8A1010">Call caraid tadhal tric, 's call caraid tadhal ainmig.</FONT c>
-- <FONT size="1">Friends are lost by calling often, and by calling seldom.</FONT s>
RoanStudio.com (http://RoanStudio.com) &lt;-- pastel open stock vendor sources & reviews!

LDianeJohnson
02-22-2001, 11:16 AM
I think am online pastel framing workshop would be a good idea. Roan, I'd be happy to give you some input . You could show the range of optional materials and different framing possibilities, the do's and don'ts, etc.

I would talk to a couple of other professional pastellists outside of WC, one in portraiture, one in landscapes, and one in still life to get their process. Then create an article.

Pastel framing seems to be a well kept secret for some reason, and thanks to Roan, it's been opend wide so we all can learn how to best protect and present our work.

By the way, my best tip is to "thump" the back of the painting before framing. Not so much so as to release your hard won highlights and details. Just a bit. And use caution for works on paper so the paper doesn't dent from the tapping.

Diane

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L. Diane Johnson (http://www.LDianeJohnson.com/) NAPA, PSA
Plein Air Workshops (http://www.LDianeJohnson.com/workshops/)

DFGray
02-22-2001, 04:50 PM
I am using frame space that is a self adiesive 1/8th inch plexi strip stuck to the glass which is cut to exact size of work and acid free backing then tape edges I drop them into gallery style frames they also store well at my galleries and offer a client a heavier package to look at without getting pastel on their hands.

sandge
02-22-2001, 08:34 PM
Thanks for your reply Roan. I really appreciate all the time you have spent on this to help us all out. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

An online framing workshop is a terrific idea! Please consider it.

thanks again
sandra

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http://www.fletcherfineart.com

Roan
02-23-2001, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by Artistry:
I think am online pastel framing workshop would be a good idea. Roan, I'd be happy to give you some input . You could show the range of optional materials and different framing possibilities, the do's and don'ts, etc.
That would be great!

I would talk to a couple of other professional pastellists outside of WC, one in portraiture, one in landscapes, and one in still life to get their process. Then create an article.

Also a great idea, uh, do you have an idea of whom to contact? I'm clueless.

Pastel framing seems to be a well kept secret for some reason, and thanks to Roan, it's been opend wide so we all can learn how to best protect and present our work.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/redface.gif thanks, Diane!

By the way, my best tip is to "thump" the back of the painting before framing. Not so much so as to release your hard won highlights and details. Just a bit. And use caution for works on paper so the paper doesn't dent from the tapping.

Oh, I forgot about that! I do it all the time, but forgot to note it.

Another tip, for when you are working on suedes and velours, is to use a can of compressed air and VERY gently blow off the painting just before you frame it. Keep about 3 feet from the painting, and hold the can at a sideways angle. All you want to do is create a stiff breeze.

Seude and velour tend to collect dust when unframed. This will clean it off nicely.




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<FONT face="Script MT Bold"><FONT COLOR="#AB4835"><FONT size="5">Roan</FONT s></FONT c></FONT f>
<FONT COLOR="#8A1010">Call caraid tadhal tric, 's call caraid tadhal ainmig.</FONT c>
-- <FONT size="1">Friends are lost by calling often, and by calling seldom.</FONT s>
RoanStudio.com (http://RoanStudio.com) &lt;-- pastel open stock vendor sources & reviews!

Katherine J
02-23-2001, 11:52 PM
I'm new to pastels and certainly don't do my own framing - yet. But I do have a couple of comments.

Carly: I ask my framer to cut the mats with a reverse bevel. That allows the paint to fall behind.

Roan and Diane: I also thump mine on the back - carefully!

I have a good and not too expensive framer who does a great job. He can do a full size Canson Mi-Teintes with 3-1/2" mat and metal frame for $79 (CDN). Seems hardly worthwhile for me to fuss with framing! That's a single mat. The same size with a double mat is $94.

One way some of you may know to perk up a single colored mat (or even light colors) is to score the mat about 3/4" from the inside edge so that white shows through.

That's my two cents for all you much more experienced pastellists!

Katherine

bk7251
02-27-2001, 12:16 AM
When I have my pastels framed, I really like to show some of the unpainted paper around the edges. When I paint, I intentionally leave an inch or so of bare paper on all sides of my image. I'm not too fussy about getting the borders exactly even - in fact, I prefer irregular borders. I have the mats cut so that anywhere between 1/8" and 3/8" of border shows.

I also much prefer using 8-ply mat board. It gives a very professional appearance.

Here are two images to show what I mean about the borders. Sorry about the reflections.

<IMG SRC="http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Feb-2001/frame1.jpg" border=0>

<IMG SRC="http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Feb-2001/frame2.jpg" border=0>

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Barry Katz

jdk
02-27-2001, 10:12 AM
Barry ---> I also did the same thing with a couple of my paintings. I agree it gives a different effect, doesn;t work for the others though (my other paintings I mean).

I just finished framing 16 paintings, and boy was it tiring or what? The matcutting took me about 8 hours, and framing for about 6. Done in 2 days. I shouldn't have waited for it to have to come to this much, but I suddenly had an opportunity to exhibit so I had to prepare this much work. I don't mind the matcutting and framing much, what kills me is the glass cleaning. Not fun at all.