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Wayne Gaudon
01-18-2002, 09:35 AM
.. before I buy

. I am thinking of trying real oil verses Water Soluible Oil and I have a question or two. My body doesn't like turps so from what I have read, I only need turp for thinning paint and then there are odorless turps as well, so I won't have to put up with the smell.

I have read that ivory soap on the brushes and perhpas a little oil before hand will clean the brushes completely. Can you use liquid soap or is it something to do with the bar itself.

I use a ceramic tile for a pallet .. can I clean it using only soap and water as well?

What is the formula for making your own damar and your own medium?

Michael2
01-18-2002, 10:18 AM
I'm sure this simple question will spark a lively round of debate!

"Turpenoid", the name brand sold in all art supply stores, is indeed very odorless, and it contains petroleum distillates. It is supposed to be healthier to use than turpentine. It does a fine job of dissolving oil.

The only reason that you would need real turpentine is to use damar varnish, which won't disolve in Turpenoid. But there isn't really any reason to use damar. Mixing damar into your medium isn't actually recommended because as a varnish it means that you are mixing into your paint film something that can be dissolved away in the future. And for varnishing, there are modern substitutes for damar. For medium purposes, alkyds are the modern replacement for damar. Alkyds dissolve just fine in Turpenoid.

I've used both real oils and water soluble (Grumbacher Max specifically). The real oils are indeed easier to paint with. But the water soluble ones get the job done, but you can't do "turp washes" with them, and they don't spread as easily.

Hope this helps.

Wayne Gaudon
01-18-2002, 10:28 AM
.. that sounds sound to me ..

. I have heard of varnishing your paintings with bee's wax varnish but it was just a mention and not a lot about it. Apparantly the wax varnish repels dust as it dries (fixes).

Anyone used any?

Michael2
01-18-2002, 10:44 AM
I've never actually varnished anything, but being the practical person that I am, I'd use the Grumbacher spray varnish. I'd do it outside so I don't have to breathe in the varnish fumes. This is what I do when using Krylon Crystal Clear fixative (dont' want to breathe in that stuff!).

lori
01-18-2002, 02:55 PM
hi artist...

it depends on what you are reacting to in turp. for example if it is the actual chemical make-up of the turps then turpenoid won't help because the smell in turps is actually added, something like natural gas, same principle. so the levels you inhale of odorless turps can be just as toxic, if you have a reaction. however, if its a smell thing, then you should be fine.

also, you can get citrus-based turps that smell like oranges...(yeah right), but they do have a different odor that might be less offensive to you and they are better for you health wise.

i too have problems with turps, i get headaches from the smell and have learned to use them sparingly. when i lived in germany they didn't have turpenoid, so i used citrus based, which still effected me, but to a lessor degree then reg. turp. and later i switched to oil of spike.


anyway, another way to paint with oils WITHOUT ever using turps is to use walnut oil mediums. you can also clean your brushes with the oil. its a slower drying oil, and might be hard for beginning, but it is great to work with. you can even buy cooking quality (recommend cold pressed healthfood store stuff) it is cheaper and works the same.

i will try to link up a site for you with recipes. i was told about these techniques on studioproducts when i developed a reaction to the spike oil that i was using for a while as a turp. alternative.

oil of spike is expensive, but a great substitute for turp also...but again, it does smell...of lavander.

i feel for you, i know what its like to be an oil painter and have reactions to turps...its a constant investigation to what will work the best.

Wayne Gaudon
01-18-2002, 04:44 PM
well thank you,

I'm not sure just what it was cause it was a while ago (well a long time ago). I just tried the Water Soluibles but they are very limited in colors and I can't get what I want when I want it. I figure with real oils, the accessability is there. I may have to hit a few differeent stores but I will find them and the color selection should be there .. not just the hues of color. Will research this Walnut oil as well.

Michael2
01-18-2002, 04:45 PM
I've never tried the citrusy stuff? Does it get your brushes clean? Is it safer to breathe in in large quantities?

lori
01-18-2002, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Michael
I've never tried the citrusy stuff? Does it get your brushes clean? Is it safer to breathe in in large quantities?

yeah michael...

it cleans the brushes just fine, and is much more healthful then turp. a couple years back (10yrs. i think) they started making it, it started as a cleaner, then made its way to artists supplies. i think even now turpenoid makes a citrus/natural grade turp. never tried their brand though. but it is considered much safer then the regular turps.

i even used it to make damar and didn't have any problems!

Michael2
01-18-2002, 05:12 PM
lori,

Thanks for the info. It was "Turpenoid Natural" that I was talking about. Maybe I should try it... might be better than using the water soluble paints.

Can I just dump a bunch of it into a silicoil bruch cleaning jar like I did with regular blue label Turpenoid? With the regular turpenoid, the pigment would settle to the bottom, and one jar would last a real long time. I'm thinking, however, that the pigments won't drop to the bottom of Turpenoid Natural because of it's thick viscosity.

You shouldn't use Turpenoid Natural to mix with paints, according to Grumbacher the result will be a non-archival paint film

cry_1
01-18-2002, 05:34 PM
Old Master's brand soap comes in a cake, and is so good, you can use it to get dried oil paint off your brushes. Just my two cents.
It's the F-ing best, trust me. If I could ingest it, I'd put it on my freaking toast. Thank you GOD!

lori
01-18-2002, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by cry_1
Old Master's brand soap comes in a cake, and is so good, you can use it to get dried oil paint off your brushes. Just my two cents.
It's the F-ing best, trust me. If I could ingest it, I'd put it on my freaking toast. Thank you GOD!

feel the same way about uglydog brush soap!

the point is that therre is nothing better then a GOOD..no make that GREAT brush soap!

ldallen
01-18-2002, 06:49 PM
Ugly Dog is excellent and available in the Blick catalog now. I clean my brushes depending on how I feel. Sometimes I rinse them off in Turpenoid and then wash with Ivory soap (bar) and luke warm water. Other times I JUST wash with Ivory soap and water (and it works fine) and every so often I use the Ugly Dog to condition my brushes. I'd use that all the time if it weren't so expensive.

Where do you get the Master's brand soap and how much does it cost???

Wayne Gaudon
01-18-2002, 06:55 PM
what about the pallet .. can you clean it with soap as well?

Does the excess paint go down the drain and eventually clog it up? Or does one have a supply of rags and fill the landfill site.

nam26b
01-18-2002, 07:25 PM
At the risk of sparking a 5-page verbal sparring match, I'd like to venture the following comment...........................

I've found that generic pump-botle hand soap can clean a brush completely after being rinsed in thinner first. It has left my brushes clean, and rinses away completely. My pallete is coated with polyeurethane, so it cleans quite easily with a thinner-dampened cotton rag (old t-shirt) after being scraped well with a knife.


Hope you all have a good day,


Nathan

lori
01-18-2002, 07:50 PM
actually nathan...(oops, am i supposed to answer your posts...lol)

yes, you can use the soap that you describe, it will clean the brush just as thoroughly, but the difference is that a brush cleaner like ugly dog CONDITIONS the brush. its beeeaaaauuuuttttiiiiffuullll. ugly dog also can clean a brush that has sat for a year stiff...which i am ashamed to say, i had a couple that i totally neglected.

anyway, you can also use dish soap to clean brushes. the main issue is longevity of the brush when using these soaps. a brush cleaner like ugly dog helps to make the brush last. other soaps tend to dry out the hair.

anyway...hope that cleared up the difference, like i said, there is one...but its not about the brush getting clean, its about how it reacts AFTER you have cleaned it.

pax.lori

impressionist2
01-18-2002, 09:21 PM
Here's what I have found, after using Grumbacher Max almost exclusively. After reading some posts including Mario's ( "userealoil" a hundred times! I guess it finally sunk in.:)) I sprang for a tube of realoil Daler Rowney Vermillion ( just happened to be in a store selling that brand and went for it) .

Risking my very favorite brush, a sable Kolinsky, I used only the realoil Vermillion. After it was soaked through and through, I cleaned it first with Murphy's oil soap and then the bar of ivory. Came sparkling clean!:D Then I dipped it in vegetable oil to keep it soft till next use. I am officially converted.

Thanks for the tip on the Old masters and the Ugly dog soap. I will look for them.

Renee

Wayne Gaudon
01-18-2002, 09:32 PM
I use the new synthentic brushes developed for use with water so the conditioning of the brush should not be a an issue .. or should it?

Of course using Water Soluible Oils, I clean them with liquid soap and water and I must add that these bruses really keep their form. I tried a cheaper brush but once it got exposed to water, the bristles swelled up and the brush was reall toast .. except for rough brush in work.

nam26b
01-18-2002, 10:37 PM
With the few sable brushes I have, the hand soap does seem to leave them a little dry after several uses, and the conditioner does tade care fo that.

Most of the brushes I have are mid-range synthetic brushes (I get them at the bookstore for around $12-$30----not sure if quality of synthetic bristles would effect the response to conditioners----I would guess not) and I haven't noticed any difference in them between the handsoap and conditioned brush soap even after many washings.


Nathan

ldallen
01-19-2002, 11:07 AM
I don't "think" the conditioning soaps (Ugly Dog or other) would be of any value with synthetic brushes. I have a few small synthetics and there is nothing I can do to restore them once the tips have split. On the other hand the natural brushes can be restored - depending of course on how much use they've had - I have brushes that are 20 years old and are in good shape. After I clean my brushes I wrap my natural bristles in paper to bring them back into their original shape (flats and brights) wrapping them tightly around the ferrule then squeezing the tip and folding the end of the paper over (making sure you don't fold the bristles with it). The others I just shape with my fingers. If you look at Ron Garrett's website he gives exact instructions: http://www.garrettcopal.com His website is full of good information. Last time I shopped I remembered that in Richard Schmid's website he said he uses Langnickel brushes. They just put out a new line of inexpensive brushes that look really nice. I just bought a couple and have only used them once or twice, but they are so inexpensive they are worth playing with.

guillot
01-19-2002, 05:32 PM
Dick Blick also sells an Oil Brush cleaner and restorer called EZ Air Brush Cleaner. It smells of citrus, it's non-toxic, and it's great for clearning those brushes!! I bought a bottle (4 oz) about 9 months ago and I'm still using it. I just poured it into a jar with a good lid. I use it mostly after I "believe" that my brushes are clean. You will be amazed at how much more paint is released from your brush! And it keeps your brushes soft.

Also, if you have brushes that have paint caked on them, this cleaner will not only remove the caked on paint, but restore the brush!

It's fantastic stuff........try some:D

Scott Methvin
01-19-2002, 11:39 PM
What you need to clean a brush has everything to do with what kind of brush you have. Bristle brushes are relatively easy to clean with practically anything.

Synthetics can be harder. Pigments like to stain them.

For the top of the line kolynski brushes and sable, there is nothing as good as the Ugly Dog soap. I have tried them all too.

BJ's Old Master soap comes in two types-green bar with pumice and white tub type w/ no pumice. The green bar soap is great for hands. The brush soap, or white kind is junk -compared to the Dog'

I mix mine up into a liquid and keep it in a big squeeze bottle.

Pen
01-20-2002, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by impressionist2


Risking my very favorite brush, a sable Kolinsky, I used only the realoil Vermillion. After it was soaked through and through, I cleaned it first with Murphy's oil soap and then the bar of ivory. Came sparkling clean!:D Then I dipped it in vegetable oil to keep it soft till next use. I am officially converted.

Renee

Before you soak any more brushes in vegetable oil, you might want to read this...June 30, moderator (Rob)


http://208.56.97.244/forum/Forum1/HTML/001081.html

ldallen
01-20-2002, 07:58 AM
Scott - thanks for that information - I thought Rob had said to use the Ugly only on the bristles!!

impressionist2
01-20-2002, 08:20 AM
Pen, Thanks. Interesting thread. I do notice but dont mind the swelling in the brush since I don't do much detail work. It keeps it's point, however, with the vegetable oil. The part that convinced me was the problem with the drying time. I guess that might be solved by washing out the brush throughly before painting.

So, is Scott's suggestion of Ugly Dog all I'll need for my Kolinsky sables or do I need the following too? :



Rob wrote:

"At the end of a session, I will rinse the
brush out with mineral spirits until it's
clean, wash with soap, dry and then dip it
in Copaiba Balsam and shape it with my
fingers. I have 15 year-old sables whose
handles are in rough shape but the hairs
are brand new and shiny."

Plus, where does one find Capaiba Balsam?

Renee

Scott Methvin
01-20-2002, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by ldallen
Scott - thanks for that information - I thought Rob had said to use the Ugly only on the bristles!!

He said not to use on the synthetics. The conditioner gums them up. You can still wash the conditioner off with a detegent soap after, though.

Scott Methvin
01-20-2002, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by impressionist2
Pen, Thanks. Interesting thread. I do notice but dont mind the swelling in the brush since I don't do much detail work. It keeps it's point, however, with the vegetable oil. The part that convinced me was the problem with the drying time. I guess that might be solved by washing out the brush throughly before painting.

So, is Scott's suggestion of Ugly Dog all I'll need for my Kolinsky sables or do I need the following too? :



Rob wrote:

"At the end of a session, I will rinse the
brush out with mineral spirits until it's
clean, wash with soap, dry and then dip it
in Copaiba Balsam and shape it with my
fingers. I have 15 year-old sables whose
handles are in rough shape but the hairs
are brand new and shiny."

Plus, where does one find Capaiba Balsam?

Renee

The copaiba can be purchased through the Studio Products web site. I suspect it is in the Ugly Dog soap, as a conditioner. But don't quote me on that.

I am afraid to wash my expensive brushes in mineral spirits, so I have never tried his technique. It's probably good though.

I have some of the CB, but you really don't need it to wash kolynskis. It is also used by painting restorers to bring new life to dead areas in old paintings.

Mario
01-20-2002, 12:58 PM
A bar of Ivory soap will clean brushes beautifully, just work the soap in a few times and rinse each time until no color comes out. Thinners are not needed at all. Try it if you don't believe me. Why make it more difficult?:evil: :angel: :cool:

ldallen
01-20-2002, 06:43 PM
Mario - you are right about that and I do use just Ivory every once in a while depending on my mood (if I'm lazy I use mineral spirits to clean them off first) - but I use the Ugly Dog every once in a while to condition my brushes.

Pen
01-20-2002, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by impressionist2


Plus, where does one find Capaiba Balsam?

Renee

http://www.studioproducts.com/

You'll also find the Ugly Dog soap here, plus other hard to find artist's materials.