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Troy Rochford
09-17-2005, 11:50 PM
Basic 101: Class 27
Marching Onward...

No, I haven't lost my mind! I just decided to go ahead and post this early so those of you who have long since finished the previous class will not have to wait any longer!

Okay gang, let me begin by thanking all who participated in class 26. I am still catching up and making notes based on your input, and will be getting back to each of you if I haven't already.

Now, recently we seemed to be following a logical progression with our studies that could only lead us in a particular direction. I want to pick up where we left off in class 24 and move forward with the next lesson in the natural progression of things.

I'm sure that it will come as a surprise to some of you, but I'm talking about ice cream. Folks, the textural wonders that this subject matter offers for our exploration are infinite, so prepare for a journey to the end of the artistic earth. Some of the full color interpretations of this subject that may come forth in this lesson just boggle the mind. I'm looking forward to this one.

Before we get into the heart of the lesson, it should be noted that I just made all of that up to see if you were paying attention! :evil: This week we will be drawing metal. Now, some among you are no doubt shattered by this news, after having gotten all excited about ice cream. Well, let not your heart be troubled. If some of you wish to be adventurous and draw, for instance, a metal bowl CONTAINING ice cream, that would be perfectly acceptable. Encouraged, even! Or you can be like Judi, who has already assured me that she intends to construct a bowl from ice cream, fill the frozen bowl with various metal objects, place it on the front right fender of a rusty tractor, photograph it when the bowl is half-melted, and use THAT as her reference photo for this project. Now that is the kind of outside-the-box thinking that I applaud, and I look forward to seeing Judi's creation. :)

Now, one thing amused me during the lesson on rendering glass. Some of you who did extremely well in that class immediately expressed reservations, trepidation, and indeed panic when it was revealed that the next lesson would be on rendering water. I discussed this with Jay, and it was clear to both of us that you guys already knew how to draw water. You just didn't know that you knew. But now you know. And I know that you know, and Jay knows as well. You know? You know, because as the rearview mirror of history now confirms, you guys went on to do very well in the water class as well. This is all definitive proof of one very important thing that cannot be overstated: the irrefutable superhuman cognitive powers of both myself and JayD.

Or, it could be proof of something that I hope you ALL have come to recognize by now, which is the fact that there is actually very little difference in terms of principle and technique between effective rendering of glass and water. Well I'll go ahead and let the cat out of the bag at the outset this time. As you make the transition from glass to water to metal, you will find that the same phenomenon applies. Any of you who are intimidated by this week's subject should rest assured that if you have successfully completed the lessons on glass and water, then you already know how to succeed in this lesson.

The reason that some of you were intimidated by the water class, and may be intimidated by this class, is that, in keeping with the nature of human psychology, you separate glass, water, and metal out in your minds without regard to their rather obvious similarities. It is because of these preconceived notions that we often hinder our own progress or set ourselves up for failure. I've said before that the psychology of art is as much or MORE important a part of the process as the robotic performance of technical skills. We are often our own worst enemies because we put up unnecessary psychological barriers to our own success, allowing fear to keep us in a rut. This is true in any area of human endeavor, but particularly so in the arts.

Why mention all of this? Simple. One of the things that I want all of you to get out of this program is an understanding of the role of psychology in art, and an understanding of how to use it to your advantage rather than the converse. This is something that we will explore more in the future, but I figured now would be as good a time as any to raise the subject, since it has some value relative to this week's class.

That said, let's examine the specifics of what we're talking about with this week's lesson. In the three dimensional, physical realm, there are dramatic and obvious differences between glass, water, and metal, texturally and otherwise. When thinking of them in the intellectual sense, the idea of convincingly rendering any or all of the three may seem quite daunting, depending on your individual skill level. But the two dimensional world of visual art is the great equalizer, if you will, and it simply boils down to light and shadow when it's all said and done. As elusive as water is in the physical, logical sense, I'm sure that it seems a lot less intimidating a subject when you think of it in terms of nothing more than light and shadow. The same is true of metal, and indeed of anything you choose to render in the two dimensional world.

The bottom line? If you say you can draw glass but you can't draw metal, I say "NONSENSE!" It's all in your head. Just as walking is a simple matter of putting one foot in front of the other, rendering ANYTHING convincingly is a simple matter of proper representation of light and shadow. Now, of course that can get incredibly complex depending upon your subject matter, but the fact remains that whether you are rendering a coffee cup or a shaggy dog, a toaster or a portrait of your grandmother, a penny or a cluster of trees at the edge of a still lake, it's all light and shadow in the end. :wave:


Okay, this is simple. I want you to draw some metal, ladies and gentlemen!! What metal to draw? That's up to you. The only requirement is that you post not only your work but also the reference material, which means you need to stay clear of copywritten material. I'm sure you can find all kinds of material in the RIL. Or you can follow Judi's lead and do your own still life as a reference.

Things to consider with metal:

* As with glass and water, to convincingly render metal it is of paramount importance that you incorporate as broad a value range as possible. High-contrast with extreme lights and extreme darks will heighten the realism.

* Often with metal, particularly shiny metal such as chrome, silver, brass, stainless steel, and so on, you will often see much sharper edges between adjacent values, with a less subtle gradation than you may find with water. I thought of illustrating this with a drawing, but I don't even find it necessary. If you have a kitchen pot or pan with a shiny metal exterior, pull it out and set it on the counter. No matter where the light source is, my guess is that if you step back and look at it, you will see areas of blinding highlights right next to areas that appear near black. (I just tested that, btw, and I'm right, of course! :p )

* With painted, dull, or more textured metal such as cast iron, brushed aluminum, pewter, etc, you will want to be more subtle with your value transitions and use more diffuse highlights. You can also manipulate the texture of these metals by using directional strokes or even some stippling or indentation and allowing some of this to show through instead of blending beyond all recognition!;)

* Shiny or not, the same applies here as with glass and water: KEEP YOUR HIGHLIGHTS CLEAN!!!!!!!!!!!! Some of you got yourselves into trouble with that issue on previous projects. Clean highlights are extremely important with this particular subject matter, so make every effort to keep your highlights sparkling white! If the size of your project permits, I would even recommend masking them off, for those of you who may have liquid or film frisket handy. If you have no frisket, don't freak out! Just work smart, pay attention, and do everything you can to keep dust, eraser debris, and your SKIN away from your highlights!

Did I mention keeping highlights clean? Happy drawing! :D

Cathie Jones
09-17-2005, 11:59 PM
WOW! What a pep talk! Well, I thought this was coming after glass and water, and selected a ref from the RIL.

Instead, maybe I'll wait and borrow Judi's ref . . . :evil:

Thanks for posting early.

Troy Rochford
09-18-2005, 12:25 AM
You are quite welcome, CJ! Done yet?;)

09-18-2005, 08:09 AM
Great write up Troy! :clap: :clap:
But the bad news is Pat ate all of the ice cream, we sold the tractor on E-bay just last night
AND Larry, his brother Darrell and his other brother Darrell picked it up already before I could take a ref photo. :(
Darn-I'll have to come up with something else. :confused:

Anita Murphy
09-18-2005, 08:53 AM
Funnily enough I took a bunch of photos last week of metal things as I was trying to think of some new ideas for drawing! :D Oh Happy Day!!! Also had idea for other metal drawing so I am going out with my camera in a bit to take more ref piccies.
Thank you Troy - this should be a good one.

Cathie Jones
09-18-2005, 09:17 AM
Not done yet, Troy. Was waiting to share Judi's ref . . . don't know what I'll do without the ice cream ice cream bowl and the rusty truck!:evil:

09-18-2005, 09:19 AM
No ice cream??? Sigh!!! Well, my Weight Watcher leader will be very happy to know that I don't have to go out and purchase that particular subject matter. :rolleyes:


09-18-2005, 11:11 AM
Cool One Teach :), I guess this is it, we will have to bite the bullet and render metal. In this case, Draw the bullet. :) I have been wanting to do a piece on a bullet. Guess like now I get to.

09-18-2005, 12:58 PM
Thanks for the great lesson, Troy. After sitting out the last one, I will be participating in this one. I did actually start something last night at 3:00 A.M.. I've also dragged myself over (kicking and screaming, I might add) to the perspective lesson, so I'm going to be doing that lesson side by side with this one. I've already posted on the perspective thread that I want people to yell at me if they notice I'm posting other things, while neglecting that lesson.


Troy Rochford
09-18-2005, 03:45 PM
Bullets, sults? You must be very angry on some level about this no ice cream thing:)

Cathie Jones
09-18-2005, 04:41 PM
Ooooooo . . . ice cream bullets!!! Neopolitan!!!

Mary Woodul
09-18-2005, 08:13 PM
Gosh, you scared me......ice cream........ :evil: Well I do have to say it will be a nice class but I still am just as scared. Thanks Troy, for your thourough and intersting explanation. ;)

09-18-2005, 08:38 PM
Heh Heh I am gonna be a BRAT,,, Hey Teach I wanna see a demo of metal by you. Like Jay used to do. :evil: Oh are we supposed to post the completed piece or do you want to see our WIP?

Cathie Jones
09-18-2005, 08:45 PM
Okay, Treach (Troy+Teach) - got my vest on, I'm ready!!


Troy Rochford
09-18-2005, 08:50 PM
CJ you can use the vest for your metal drawing also, so anytime you're ready!!

Sults, on a serious note, I apologize for the absence of demos. I just didn't have time to do them, but I'd hoped the writeup was in depth enough to offset that. :( Please don't shoot me with your magic bullet!

Fireman's kid
09-18-2005, 08:53 PM
Hi all! I'm here subscribing to the thread. Won't promise to work on this one since all of my promises lately have been empty ones. :rolleyes: But I'll be back if I have anything to post. Otherwise I'll just read along silently.

Good class Troy!

Troy Rochford
09-18-2005, 09:01 PM
Hiya Stacy! Somehow I lost track of the house on the far right of your sig and never saw the finished result. can you link me to that thread when you get a chance?

Cathie Jones
09-18-2005, 09:10 PM
CJ you can use the vest for your metal drawing also, so anytime you're ready!!

Sults, on a serious note, I apologize for the absence of demos. I just didn't have time to do them, but I'd hoped the writeup was in depth enough to offset that. :( Please don't shoot me with your magic bullet!

It's not too late, you know. I'm not sure that just saying "you can do it" is enough for us . . . we need in-depth instruction, including visual aids. or something like that :rolleyes:

Troy Rochford
09-18-2005, 09:20 PM
It's not too late, you know. I'm not sure that just saying "you can do it" is enough for us . . . we need in-depth instruction, including visual aids. or something like that :rolleyes:

Hmm, well I would have hoped that you would have gotten more than "you can do it" out of the class that I wrote. I guess I missed the mark there. Please bear in mind that I am trying to make up for 100 hours of work that I lost while out of town, and am still trying to catch up with people individually regarding the last class. I will see what I can put together though.:)

Cathie Jones
09-18-2005, 10:04 PM
Hmm, well I would have hoped that you would have gotten more than "you can do it" out of the class that I wrote. I guess I missed the mark there. Please bear in mind that I am trying to make up for 100 hours of work that I lost while out of town, and am still trying to catch up with people individually regarding the last class. I will see what I can put together though.:)

Troy, put on your sense of humor and come play with us. :evil: I didn't mean for you to take it seriously . . . just teasing. Your instructions are very good and I'm sure we'll do fine . . . but torturing the teacher is a requirement, you know!:D When and if you have time, visual aids would be nice, but critique of the drawings will work, too.

09-18-2005, 10:18 PM
CJ- You are such a she :evil: ! LOL
(though tis fun to tease the teach ha-ha)

I think a year ago a lot of us (at least me) were clueless. I think we do not always need demo's. Time to take all that JayD has taught us and let's step out of the box.

Troy Rochford
09-18-2005, 10:41 PM
Well, Judi and some others know that my philosophy on demos is that I would rather encourage students to take my guidance in the form of writing and theory, and find their own way without being given a specific path in the form of demos. That's not to say that demos have no value in my opinion, because they do, but only when necessary. The pen and ink lesson in the future, for instance, will feature a lot of demos, because a lot of you have never even tried that medium. But for this lesson, I find demos frankly unnecessary, because the principles and techniques involved are essentially the same as covered in lessons 23 and 24.

Having said that, though, I DID consider including demos here just for the sake of doing so, and I discussed with Judi the fact that I felt it might benefit the class more to force you guys to kind of sink or swim without the aid of demos. Considering my time issues, I opted for sink or swim. Why? Because you guys are talented enough that you should be able to read my explanations above and put that to work in practice and produce fantastic results.

I don't want to shake things up too much by changing the way things are done in this class, but I'm still adjusting so bear with me and we'll find the right balance here. The issue of demos is just an area where Jay and I differ in our approach. Just as with class 26 though, I am certainly open to suggestions at any time from students, so if the majority of you guys want demos with the lessons, then demos there shall be! I'll let you guys decide that issue. In the meantime, I will use my judgment and include demos when I think them needed. (I will still see about putting stuff together for this lesson, CJ, but it's not gonna happen tonight!! I drew for about 10 hours today and I am DONE!)

Mary Woodul
09-18-2005, 10:54 PM
Thank you Troy, the write up is very clear, but I, will remind you for the pen & ink class, because I am one of the one's that have no idea, except to use it for writing. ;)

Cathie Jones
09-18-2005, 11:58 PM
What did you draw for 10 hours today, Troy?

Troy Rochford
09-19-2005, 12:40 AM
What did you draw for 10 hours today, Troy?

A monkey rowing a boat. I mean, since YOU aren't going to...

09-19-2005, 07:10 AM
(inserts Hands On Hips :rolleyes: ) & says to Teach --- Blthhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Don't you know I am visual person, I need DEMOS!!!!
LOL, j/k :evil:
Oh you did not answer my other question Teach, Do we post our work completed or a WIP?

Cathie Jones
09-19-2005, 09:01 AM
A monkey rowing a boat. I mean, since YOU aren't going to...

Sorry - - you gave me a choice and I chose to put a life vest on a dog . . . so your monkey will have to row the boat!!! :D

Troy Rochford
09-19-2005, 09:31 AM
sults if you want to post a wip, I'm sure the others could benefit from that. It is not required, though.

09-19-2005, 12:43 PM
Hey guys, we've all drawn metal before in this course. Here, to refresh your memory, are a couple of my earlier efforts:

Class 4: http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=189588

Class 10: http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=211799

Let's hope I can do better now (though I must admit I quite like the key!)

Mary Woodul
09-19-2005, 01:28 PM
Troy, I didn't like my pics of yesterday because I didn't set them up as still lifes. I just set up one and am satisfied with the pic. but if I finish it, are you including rusted metal in this project?

Cathie Jones
09-19-2005, 03:09 PM
Thanks for the reminder, Dave . . . :wave: . . . I like your still life.

Troy's right - we shouldn't have too much trouble with this one. Hope not, anyway. I'm just glad I already had a ref picked out and a few weeks to think about it!!

My ref in in the RIL (can't post it from work) - by kdkbrown . . . take a look if you're undecided. There are several variations of strawberries in metal.

Troy Rochford
09-19-2005, 04:57 PM
Hey guys I meant it when I said that is entirely up to you what you draw, so long as there is metal involved. Rust, bubble gum, rabbit ears, whatever....:)

Mary Woodul
09-19-2005, 07:32 PM
Sults, I love your new avatar, it looks good and orange and purple are one of my favorite combinations. ;)

Mary Woodul
09-19-2005, 10:27 PM
Hey teach, :) , before I go any further, I was drawing what is engraved on this pitcher but I was thinking that when I shade, it will get lost. Should I use indentation and then go over with graphite?

09-19-2005, 10:30 PM
my God, Mary...your sketch is wonderful as is!!!

09-19-2005, 10:37 PM
Mary that is a beautiful pitcher! Great start.

You have such lovely things. How old it the pitcher and book?

Troy Rochford
09-19-2005, 10:38 PM
Mary it's kinda hard for me to see what's goiing on in the photo, but yeah, if you are drawing something that is engraved in real life, then indenting it will only increase the realism of the piece. Watch your hard edges on your line drawing though. That's quite an ambitious pic that you selected, btw. Looking forward to seeing this one come together!:)

Mary Woodul
09-19-2005, 10:44 PM
Thank you Billie and Judi. The book and the pitcher are 19th century. I love old books.

Thanks Troy, I think the drawing looks that defined because I used the enhancer so that it would show up, but I will watch the hard edges. ;)

Cathie Jones
09-19-2005, 10:56 PM
I really hate to say this, Mary, because your drawing is so beautiful . . . but I don't think the table is quite right. It looks like the back should go down a bit and the front up, and the book will then have to be a little smaller. Check your elipse against the ref and see what you think . . . maybe it's just the scan. :rolleyes:

Troy Rochford
09-19-2005, 11:01 PM
I agree about the table ellipse Mary. And good to hear about the enhancement thing. I was afraid you sort of ANGRILY drew the outline, lol. ;)

09-20-2005, 04:26 AM
Great start Mary! Can't say that I would have taken that one on! :eek: Looking forward to seeing it develop.

Mary Woodul
09-20-2005, 06:37 AM
CJ, thank you for poining that out, I hadn't seen that until I saw both pictures together and you brought it out. It is off completely. :(

Troy, me angry.......never.... :mad: :angel:

Dave, thank you, I'm beginning to wish I hadn't. :crying:

09-20-2005, 07:59 AM
Morning Mary :wave:
I didn't notice the ellipse either. Now I see it. :rolleyes:
I can't wait to see your next wip!

09-20-2005, 08:06 AM
Wow cool one Mary, I am sure this will be a Mary Masterpiece! I do like those metal pitchers and such. :)
Ty on my avator, (I still am playing around, may be changed again, also my sig banner I am not completely satisfied with). lol

Anita Murphy
09-20-2005, 09:35 AM
Mary - Lovely arrangement. What medium are you going to use?

This is the start of mine.

09-20-2005, 10:05 AM
Looking good Anita!

09-20-2005, 10:10 AM
Hey Anita that really does look like shiney metal to me. very nice work.

Anita Murphy
09-20-2005, 10:40 AM
Thanks Dave and Sults - just noticed that my handle is not symmetrical - :mad:

Mary Woodul
09-20-2005, 10:49 AM
Thank you , Judi, Sults and Anita.

Wow Anita! I thought your spoon was your reference. That is beautiful the way you captured the shine.

Sults, I love you siggy line but personaly, I like it like you had it before adding the cat's eye. Your eyes and the purple looks stunning.

09-20-2005, 11:21 AM
oohhhh Anita....i like this one! i never thought of using silverware. my *silver* is sooo not silver!

09-20-2005, 12:29 PM
Hi Anita! :wave:
Looks good! And isn't it great to do your own C & C? We could not have done that as well before 101. :D

Cathie Jones
09-20-2005, 01:27 PM
Anita, I suspect you're the only person who would notice the handle . . . the rest of us are :eek: :clap: at the perfection everywhere else!! Way to go, lady!!

Troy Rochford
09-20-2005, 02:14 PM
Anita you commented to me that you were totally disappointed with this. I fail to see why. You're doing very well with this one.

09-20-2005, 02:32 PM
Hey you guys, if you get a chance, please check out one of our new students chair (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3895875#post3895875). it will blow you away, like it did Jay, Judi & I. :)

09-20-2005, 02:33 PM
Thanks Dave and Sults - just noticed that my handle is not symmetrical - :mad:

So it's well-used silver that's got a bit out of shape...who's to know? :angel: :D

Anita Murphy
09-20-2005, 03:13 PM
Billie - my *silver* isn't silver either!!!!

Dave - it's so worn its amazing its not doing a 'Uri Geller' just when you look at it! :evil: :p ;)

Cathy - *blush*

Mary - my ref pic???? Yeah right!!!!!!! If you saw that you would see how far out I am!!!

Stage 2

09-20-2005, 06:07 PM
Hi Anita! :wave:
What a marvelous shine!!! This looks fabulous! :clap: :clap:

Mary Woodul
09-20-2005, 07:05 PM
Anita, you have been working. That is looking beautiful!!!

I guess, I'll go do that, I can't seem to solve the pen dilema. I did find a technical pen but I will wait and see what Troy says about the one I have, but I don't think it is the right one.

Hi Judi! :wave:

Troy Rochford
09-20-2005, 07:10 PM
Anita I've seen the reference pic and you're doing fine. And posting the reference is part of the assignment, so please post away!

Mary check pms.

Katherine T
09-20-2005, 07:18 PM
Anita - love the spoons, very nice drawings and very shiny!
Mary - great pitcher and well spotted Cathy viz the table. Book is also off - angle/perspective as well as size.

I'm trying to make my mind up as to which bit of metal - I think it's going to be a rather old small copper measuring jug. There again - there's always my glasses!

Anita Murphy
09-20-2005, 07:49 PM
Thanks Guys

Here is the ref pic (now you can see how wrong I have gone!!!!!!!!!!!!)

09-20-2005, 07:55 PM
Anita! :wave:
I think it looks fabulous. I think you need some shine to the handle parts and some more darks in the spoon area for punch, but it looks great. You are definately getting there! It doesn't have to be an exact replica now does it? :)

09-20-2005, 08:07 PM
Anita your not far off at all gf :) Very beautiful reflections you rendered will be punched out as Judi says adding darks but I think you need to blacken that foreground and background too.

Anita Murphy
09-20-2005, 08:12 PM
Thanks Judi and Sults. I will make the background much darker once I have added the third spoon. I see what you mean about punching up the darks on the spoons. Will do that tonight, ladies :D

Mary Woodul
09-20-2005, 08:27 PM
Thank you Katherine for your input, I will try to solve that.

Anita, your spoons are stunning.

Fireman's kid
09-20-2005, 08:55 PM
Somehow I lost track of the house on the far right of your sig and never saw the finished result. can you link me to that thread when you get a chance?
Troy, you can find the link here (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278427)
Thanks for your interest!

Mary - Wow! What a challenging reference you have chosen!! I'm sure it will be beautiful when you are done.

Anita - I agree with Judi that you need some more darks in the bowl of the top spoon. Also I can see some slight differences in the shape of this area but no one would know if they didn't look at your reference. The handle of your second spoon is also a little bigger than in your reference but ditto to what I said above. I think the drawing is coming along great! But I do have one complaint about your recent posts...
Your avatar and sig line are making me HUNGRY!!! :D
Every time I see it I think, "mmmmm...donuts!"
(Btw, I was thinking of drawing silverware before I saw your post. I might change to something else now so people don't think I copied. ;) )

Dave - thanks for the reminder about the last time we drew medal. Do you think Troy would notice if we handed those drawings in for this weeks assignment? :evil:

09-20-2005, 09:01 PM
Thanks Guys

Here is the ref pic (now you can see how wrong I have gone!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Anita, all i see amiss is the highlight and shadow on the spoon handle. it's an easy fix. it looks like you drew the bowl of the spoon and then looked at the handle of the ladle when you drew the spoon handle. i still love this!!! it's a tough subject and you're doing it extremely well!

oops...i missed your updated drawing! you already fixed the handle...sorry!:o

Troy Rochford
09-20-2005, 10:05 PM
Do you think Troy would notice if we handed those drawings in for this weeks assignment? :evil:

NOW he will! :D

Cathie Jones
09-20-2005, 10:48 PM
Just to show Judi I'm working . . . :D Here are three things:

The ref photo (by kdkbrown - Thanks!)

The initial sketch (which I refined a little, graphited the back and transferred to good paper) so you can see where I'm headed:

And this is where I am after about two hours - the dark dots are blue masking fluid -

Masking stuff doesn't like graphite - it wants to scrape off - so the strawberry at bottom was done with graphite dust and Q-Tip. Don't know what I'll do with the base of the metal thing to keep the mask on . . .

Troy Rochford
09-20-2005, 11:07 PM
That's an awesome reference pic, CJ! Youre off to a good start, just take it slow and watch the relationship between all of your values as you go. You guys who jump all over the paper as you go make me nervous, lol!! I'd have my values so out of whack it would make you fall on the floor laughing. Also you probably already caught this, but in your initial sketch the dark vertical in the pattern of your tablecloth was way off (the angle). Nitpicky, sure, but it'll make a big difference in terms of perspective and framing if it's off.

Oh yeah, and just draw around the masking fluid. Consider it an exercise in working slllllllowly and patiently! :)

Cathie Jones
09-20-2005, 11:20 PM
You guys who jump all over the paper as you go make me nervous, lol!! :)

I'm easily bored?? Actually, I have a problem with that, but it's not what you think. I do the same thing with knitting . . . I have to try to see what the finished product will look like, and once I know how it will turn out, I'm done. Finished. Through. So it really would be better if I finished each area as I go along.

In this case, I realized that I should have done the other-than-metal stuff first, so I could get the reflections right. Thanks for the warning on the cloth stripes - I hadn't seen that.

Anita Murphy
09-20-2005, 11:40 PM
CJ - I remember this image - was it used in the WDT once? Where did you get the graphite dust? I feel that would be an easier way to do really dark backgrounds and get an even surface. I am so with you on finishing things off once you can see how it will turn out. I'm like that with sewing.

Cathie Jones
09-21-2005, 12:00 AM
Hi Anita :wave:

I don't know if this image was used in the WDT, I'm not there very often. It's from the RIL by kdkbrown, who has several variations of this still life plus some other interesting photos.

I have some old drafting pencils with large leads that aren't very useful for drawing - too scratchy - so when I want graphite dust I rub them on sandpaper and pick up the dust with a Q-Tip. We learned it in Lesson 12 - http://www.americanrag.com/Basic%20101/Class12.pdf , but with charcoal dust instead of graphite. It is very smooth.

Anita Murphy
09-21-2005, 12:07 AM
here (http://www.dickblick.com/zz228/43/) Thanks CJ! I thought you might be able to buy graphite powder - seems logical........... AHA I have found it here (http://www.dickblick.com/zz228/43/) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thought it should be available somewhere.

Thanks for the tip though on using sand paper.

Troy Rochford
09-21-2005, 12:57 AM
Okay Anita, I sat down and went over these side by side and here are a few observations... (After typing this up, I've decided that I am only going to c/c the TOP spoon for the time being, in the interest of keeping this post less than fifty thousand words!!)

First, the shape of the body of the top spoon is slightly off. Particularly the top edge. Pay CLOSE attention to your reference and fix this. It's easy, just takes patience. Take some time and blunt the end of this spoon SLIGHTLY and work on getting it perfectly rounded as in the ref. You've told me you're a perfectionist, so here's the test! On a drawing like this, I might spend 2 hours drawing the leading edge of the spoon over and over and over again until it was perfect. Are you willing to do that?!! If so, it WILL pay off. You'll also notice in the reference a very subtle hint of very dark value just inside the leading edge of the tip of the spoon, as the inside of the spoon turns away from the light. You left that out in your drawing and it flattens out the tip of the spoon and makes it appear flush with the surface it's sitting on. Take some time on correcting this, and then address the slots in the spoon. Remember that the outermost edges (the edges that run parallel to the edge of the spoon) of those slots should be perfectly shaped and perfectly aligned so that if you drew one continuous line all the way around them, it would form a perfectly symmetrical oval in the bottom of the spoon (I know this sounds confusing as all hell, but hopefully you understand what I'm trying to say!!). Some of your shapes are off a bit there, and it is affecting the illusion of proper depth in your spoon. You also need to deepen a lot of your values in the spoon and pay very close attention to the reference. The only real area of VERY light value of any significance is the area that washes over the 3 slots closest to the bottom of the spoon as the viewer sees it. That means the entire top half of your spoon, even the lighter values, needs to be several shades darker.

Watch little things as well, like the lightplay along the edge of your spoon. You see bright highlight there, but if you look closely at the reference, it is not simply one perfect white line of uniform thickness all the way around the edge, "outlining" it. There ARE value changes even within that highlight.

Also, since you haven't fully developed your background, this is a non-issue, but I'll throw this out there for you to keep in mind when you get further along with this. Your cast shadows from the spoons should GRADUALLY, SLIGHTLY get lighter in value as the distance increases between the spoon surface and the surface upon which the shadow is cast. Take the spoon handle for example - the point at which the handle meets with the "body" of the spoon is the area where the spoon is furthest from the table it is sitting on. The cast shadow from this part of the spoon should be lighter than, say, the END of the handle where there is direct contact between the spoon and the table.

Mary Woodul
09-21-2005, 07:09 AM
OMG Troy, after reading this post to Anita, I don't think I want to draw my pitcher anymore. Now I do believe what you said in one of your posts before the class. "You are going to cry". :evil:

Anita Murphy
09-21-2005, 08:14 AM
Mary - its not that bad!!! They are all things I knew. And actually quite minor in correction. It will all go to making us better at observation before we put pencil to paper.

Troy - thank you for taking the time to be so detailed. I dread to think what you will say about the second spoon!!!!!!!!!!!

09-21-2005, 08:20 AM
Anita I applaud you gf, I am so glad you took Troys observation that way. I have to tell you, I decided to take C&C that way from others on my current work too.
Infact, RR pmd me a very long detailed C&C the other day on my sp, and since I have been very optimistic of it, I am really liking fixing my sp. It is not a chore to do but I am actually enjoying it.
Mary, it does sound like alot of work but if you break down each C&C to just babysteps it is easier to handle. I know that is the way it is working for me.
I was looking at my piece as a whole, when I should of been looking at it as pieces.
Oh, Because I am working on my sp and still want to get that bullet done, I am not going to do any babystep work in perspective at all, that Jay is just darn right evil. ooooooooh no uh uh no way, am I not trying that WDT this week.

Mary Woodul
09-21-2005, 12:03 PM
Anita and Sults, I agree with you I was just trying to give Troy a bad time, :evil: . In fact I am amazed at your professionalism and careful breakdown, Troy.

Anita Murphy
09-21-2005, 02:56 PM
Hope I picked up all the points Troy came up with. It does look a little better to me - maybe.......a little..........what do you think?????????

Troy Rochford
09-21-2005, 03:21 PM
lol, Mary, for the record, Anita asked me privately to nitpick the hell out of her work like I would my own. And really I should do that for all of you guys anyway, because it would do you a disservice NOT to. But please don't take it personally.

Anita, I'll review your update later when I have more time. At a glance, without looking at your reference, I'd say you've made a tremendous amount of progress though. One thing though - see that slot pointing at the tip of the spoon (the one in the "9 oclock" position for the viewer)? See the little cluster of lights and darks between the outer edge of that slot and the tip of the spoon? I counted I believe (I don't recall the exact count, but I think my memory is correct) NINE different values in there in the reference. There aren't nine values in your drawing. I know. I'm evil. :)

Anita Murphy
09-21-2005, 03:23 PM
Evil isn't the word!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Troy Rochford
09-21-2005, 03:27 PM
Evil isn't the word!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's why I am and always will be your hero! :p :wave:

Anita Murphy
09-21-2005, 03:33 PM
evil = hero
*deep thought*
The logic escapes me .......................

Troy Rochford
09-21-2005, 03:38 PM
I am your hero because I share with you my words of wisdom. But you know that. Silly rabbit.

Anita Murphy
09-21-2005, 03:40 PM

Cathie Jones
09-21-2005, 04:55 PM

Mary Woodul
09-21-2005, 06:03 PM
Beautiful work Anita, it pays to have a good teacher. Troy well you better nitpick the hell out of my pitcher becuase I just ruined the whole thing. I lost the proportion completely putting in that design, so before I go any further with the design I need you to tell me where to go with this. I think I will forget about the book and the rose and just concentrate on the pewter and the design and I guess the weaving on the table. :confused: http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Sep-2005/43096-foto_jarra.jpg


Troy Rochford
09-21-2005, 06:19 PM
Mary I think your pitcher is looking great. I think you can put the book and rose in also and would like to see that, but if you want to leave it out that's your call. Compositionally it works better with those elements thrown in though. I'd spend some more time on the ellipse of the table. Your right side drops off at SLIGHTLY too sharp an angle as it meets the right vertical edge of the pic. I'd start there and get that angle nailed, then then work right to left fixing the rest of the ellipse. Maybe I'm blind, but I don't see anything at all wrong with the pitcher at this point. I'll know more about that when you start toning it in. Good job! :)

Ahhhh, okay, I see what you mean about the design. It's proportionately larger in your drawing than real life. Who cares? It looks good, and the perspective is correct. Don't worry about that.

Katherine T
09-21-2005, 07:07 PM
Mary - I think there may be a tiny weeny problem with this - only worth dealing with if you want to.

Because your pitcher has a 'belly' and you're looking at the design on the pitcher at a slight angle the midpoint line of thje motif, which splits it in half into two mirror images would not be straight (ie not a plumbline straight), it would be very slightly curved - and thus the motif ought to accommodate this very slight curve. Put another way, if your motif as currently drawn was on a totally vertical surface it would be fine, the issue only arises because the pitcher has a curved profile.

Hope this helps..........

Cathie Jones
09-21-2005, 07:21 PM
I think Katherine hit on it. It's the curve. It doesn't look larger than the ref - if you look closely at the design that's 'hidden' it pretty much goes almost top to bottom. It's a beautiful design!!

Mary Woodul
09-21-2005, 07:37 PM
Thank you Troy, Katherine and CJ. Troy I see what I did with the elipse and I will try to squeeze in the flower and the book with out it looking squeezed in. I lost the proportion of the table because I lengthened the pitcher a tad to fit the design. I got carried away and didn't check the proportion.

Katherine and CJ, I will try to solve that curvy problem with the design. ;)

Troy Rochford
09-21-2005, 07:43 PM
CJ youre right re the design, I didn't pay attention to the extension of the design in the ref at the bottom. Katherine raises a good point, but I think a lot of that can be remedied in the shading process.

09-21-2005, 09:38 PM
Anita, your spoons are amazing! the second one is a real mindblower! great job!!

Anita Murphy
09-21-2005, 11:03 PM
Thank you Billie!

Cathie Jones
09-21-2005, 11:42 PM
Update - about 45 minutes more. I erased the cloth lines and will redo after I finish getting the strawberry back in proportion. Tonight I worked on the leaves of the bottom strawberry and the lowest reflections on the gravy boat. Not sure where I'm going with the lowest reflection - right now it looks too dark, but I won't change it just yet. Maybe it just needs some tonal variations.

Time to get coffee and clothes ready for tomorrow morning.


Troy Rochford
09-21-2005, 11:47 PM
CJ your coffee is going to be cold by morning.

09-21-2005, 11:49 PM
Hi CJ! :wave:
Looking good so far but I must have missed your first post and the ref. :confused: Going back to see. :o

Cathie Jones
09-21-2005, 11:53 PM
CJ your coffee is going to be cold by morning.

Not if I set the timer to turn it on at 5:30 a.m. . . .:D

Thank you Judi . . . ref is here: http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3897344&postcount=69

Troy Rochford
09-21-2005, 11:57 PM
Not if I set the timer to turn it on at 5:30 a.m. . . .:D

Cool. That ought to give me enough time to c/c your pic ;)

Looking good btw. :)

Cathie Jones
09-22-2005, 12:01 AM
Cool. That ought to give me enough time to c/c your pic ;)

Looking good btw. :)

I'll set an extra cup out for you . . .

09-22-2005, 12:02 AM
Hi CJ :wave: (again),
Went back and looked and I only have two things to comment on. I think the reflection in the upper part of the container has the reflection of the lower stand section amiss-it is differently shaped and sized. I noticed on your draft that the plaid pattern is more straight but angled in the ref. It is too early (I think) to comment on more-coming along wonderfully!
I am so-o-o glad you are working!
LOL- I had a draft near done and have decided I don't like it. Square one. :(

Katherine T
09-22-2005, 04:04 AM
I want to know where Cathie gets her emoticons from!

Mary Woodul
09-22-2005, 06:48 AM
CJ, that is looking good! Your strawberry is beginning to look tempting.

Anita Murphy
09-22-2005, 08:01 AM
Katherine - you can hijack emoticons by right clicking and saving!

CJ - looking good! http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Sep-2005/58769-44366-3_3_21.gif

Cathie Jones
09-22-2005, 08:40 AM
Good morning 101ers -

Thanks Mary and Anita -

Judi, the reflection of the bottom part on the upper part is distorted because of the rounded shape of the gravy boat, so I've had an awful time trying to get it shaped right. Ignore the plaid pattern for now - I'm just getting to that.

Katherine, I've been saving little graphics and animations for years. The smileys are from Smiley Central.

Troy Rochford
09-22-2005, 09:01 AM
Where's my freaking coffee, CJ???????

Anita Murphy
09-22-2005, 09:22 AM

There you go Troy - and enough for anyone else who needs it!

Cathie Jones
09-22-2005, 10:28 AM
duplicate . . . sorry . . . did I tell you I'm hopeless in the morning???:p

Cathie Jones
09-22-2005, 10:29 AM
Thanks, Anita.

Troy, I forgot to tell you, I don't get the coffee in the morning, my DH does . . . because last time I did it I put sugar in my coffee instead of his . . . and I hate sweetened coffee!!:eek: I just can't be trusted with things like that so early in the morning!!

I'm leaving for work now, so will hopefully be awake in an hour or so . . . :evil:

Now . . . Where's my freakin' critique???

Troy Rochford
09-22-2005, 10:34 AM
CJ you're doing fine so far but, as Judi said, it's a bit early for a detailed critique. She and I both addressed the tablecloth pattern issue, and she hit on the reflection thing... I'm now patiently waiting for the next installment:)

Hey, congrats though, and thanks! At least you and Anita and Mary are actually participating in the class! :)

Cathie Jones
09-22-2005, 11:13 AM
I guess I need a better explanation of the 'reflection thing.' I thought I had pretty well copied the reflection of the bottom part from the photo and it was distorted because of the roundness of the top part. Am I missing something?

Anita Murphy
09-22-2005, 11:25 AM
Hi CJ - I think they mean that the reflection in the bottom of the bowl of the sauce boat is deeper in your version than in the photo. In the photo it is quite narrow. And the line is not curving up as in your version where the bowl of the sauce boat meets the stand. At least that's what I can see. Hope that is of some help!

Cathie Jones
09-22-2005, 01:48 PM
That helps, Anita - thanks! If I have time tonight I'll take another look at it.;)

09-22-2005, 03:30 PM
everyone is doing so well with this class!! everyone that's posted their progress anyway. i'm not telling what i'm doing.:evil: it's not silverware or sterling either.

Anita Murphy
09-22-2005, 04:20 PM
Oh Billie we want to see!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Update on mine. Found it amusing to realise the reflection in the bottom spoon is me and the dining room and a picture on the wall that I painted!!!

09-22-2005, 04:30 PM
Katherine, I've been saving little graphics and animations for years. The smileys are from Smiley Central.

Hey, that looks like me in Hawaii!

CJ, your boat is coming on really well, and as for the spoons: http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Sep-2005/52179-bowdown.gif

09-22-2005, 04:51 PM
i'm with Dave, Anita!! this is incredible!!!!!!!!!!!:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Cathie Jones
09-22-2005, 05:34 PM
Ditto, ditto, ditto . . . beautiful reflections Anita!!

Oh, Dave . . . no wonder I'm having trouble with this thing, it's a BOAT! Maybe I should just put a life jacket on it!!!

Troy Rochford
09-22-2005, 06:34 PM
CJ - Didn't mean to be vague. I thought Judi had explained her thoughts in detail about the reflection so I didn't want to be redundant. Anita seems to have cleared it up though:) And please - NO LIFE JACKET on the gravy boat.

Billie I hope you aren't doing a metal dog!

Anita - If you still think your drawing "sucks," I'm coming to see you!;)

Katherine T
09-22-2005, 06:51 PM
Anita - truly splendid drawing - wonderful! :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap: (Jay will tell you I don't normally go overboard!)

Cathie - I've been right-clicking and my emoticon file is now significantly enhanced - for which many thanks. Have you seen.......?

Troy - what's the sig construction problem?

Troy Rochford
09-22-2005, 06:56 PM
Katherine - main prob with my banner is that one of the drawings was based on one of the recent RIL photos with copyright issues.

Cathie Jones
09-22-2005, 06:56 PM
NO LIFE JACKET on the gravy boat.

Okay, I'll paint it blue. :D Matte blue.

Anita Murphy
09-22-2005, 07:02 PM
Dave - You shouldn't worship spoons you know!

Billie - you are too kind!!!

CJ - Thank you! I liked the idea of a life jacket - nothing like a bit of humour in art!

Troy - I take it it's ok with you then????????

Katherine - Thank you! http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Sep-2005/58769-08.gif

09-22-2005, 08:00 PM
I am slow this week, doing other things! I had a plan to do a trumpet or tuba, but can't find a photo in the reference library and don't have one of my own. I did that strawberry and bowl that CJ has for a WDT, may have to slip it in here by accident if I don't get moving.

09-22-2005, 08:11 PM
CJ, I am so sorry gf, I just saw your wip i& it is looking so great.

Anita, wow, you have the look of beautiful silverware there.

Mary, I can't wait to see your next update. :)

Troy, I promise to take this class even if I have to pull you out of Class 30 to come back and C&C my bullet. :)
Hiyas Connie

09-22-2005, 08:19 PM
Anita, your spoons are gorgeous! I've never seen such shiny spoons! And you are so fast. I haven't even found anything to draw yet. Like Connie's idea, I thought of a trombone, because both my sons played that instrument in school, but I couldn't find a good photo, and I'm too lazy to climb up into the attic to get the real one down.


09-22-2005, 08:26 PM
Billie I hope you aren't doing a metal dog!

NO!!! silly guy!:rolleyes:

09-22-2005, 09:06 PM
Hey CJ-you know I am not the best at 'splainin-even after 27 Classes-LOL. Thanks for picking up after me Anita! :D

Anita! FABULOUS!!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Dave-Did you wear coconuts AND a grass skirt in Hawaii? :eek:

Hi Sults, Troy, Connie, Fozzie, Mary and Michelle! :wave:

Fireman's kid
09-22-2005, 09:55 PM
Hi gang! I had no internet access yesterday and today. Finally got that problem resolved. So without the computer you'd think I spent all my time drawing, right? Nope. :( Won't bore you with the excuses but will say I haven't drawn anything yet. I did, however, take my reference picture which is further than I've gotten on some of the classes. :D

CJ and Mary, it looks like both of you have made a good start. :clap:

Anita, you have blazed the trail in this class. Have you been on a sugar high from all those sweets in your sig line? If so, it hasn't made you shakey at all -- those spoons are so spectacular!! The shine is great and I love the reflections. No crits from me! :clap: :) :clap:

Dave, I too am curious as to why you wore the coconuts with the skirt?!?

Cathie Jones
09-22-2005, 10:40 PM
Hey CJ-you know I am not the best at 'splainin-even after 27 Classes-LOL. Thanks for picking up after me Anita! :D
Your 'splainin' was fine, Judi - it was my understandin' that was off!!

Dave-Did you wear coconuts AND a grass skirt in Hawaii? :eek:
Yep, I let him borrow mine!!! :D

Cathie Jones
09-22-2005, 10:49 PM
I thought we had kind of a 'chat' thread in this forum, but can't find it, so you guys get to hear my rant!:mad:

I received e-mails today from two different ladies who are in the embroidery and pattern business (I checked their web sites to be sure they were legit). Both told me that one of the paintings from my web site was not only being used in an eBay seller's listings, but there was a direct link to it so they were using my bandwidth to display it!

One of them suggested that I replace the image with one that said this person was pirating copyrighted work, but I wasn't able to do that, so I changed the message beside the image in my website to say that it was being used illegally by an eBay seller.

The worst part of this is that I wasn't able to report exactly what was wrong to eBay! I was able to send them an e-mail choosing their subjects and entering the problem item number, but they don't allow explanations - just the item number and a basic reason for reporting it. And I couldn't find a phone number! You could see the smoke coming out of my ears by the time I got through searching their site for a way to report exactly what was wrong!

I hate eBay!!!!! And if they don't do something about this, you can bet there's a number for their headquarters somewhere!!!

And they used up all of my spare time tonight . . . so no drawing. ARRRGGHHH

Okay - rant over. Thank you for listening.

Mary Woodul
09-22-2005, 10:53 PM
Anita your work is abstolutely magnificent. When I saw the reflection on your spoon yesterday, I thought it was very interesting and tried to make it out. The painting is very clear. You cannot say you don't like this.

Hi Katherine, CJ, Connie, Sults, Michelle, Dave, Judi, Stacy and Troy. :wave:
Wow the class is getting big, I hope I didn't forget anyone.

Sults, I hope to work on mine tomorrow after finisheing JayD's house.

CJ, your's is looking good and Billie I'm excited about your surprise!

Anita Murphy
09-22-2005, 11:02 PM
CJ - That is just awful!!!! I wonder sometimes at people's total lack of any sort of integrity or conscience!

Cathie Jones
09-22-2005, 11:34 PM
Turns out my message on the image worked after all . . . take a look at this:

And I'll get back on topic . . . sorry to hijack the thread, but if this happened to me, it could happen to any of us!

Troy Rochford
09-22-2005, 11:54 PM
CJ I had that same thing happen to me about five times over the course of a year and ebay didn't do jack. I ended taking my images down out of frustration.

Mary Woodul
09-23-2005, 12:09 AM
CJ, I hadn't understood what you had asked about if I had read. This is too bad, you just can't trust anyone. Is the link you showed put up on the page at ebay?

Cathie Jones
09-23-2005, 12:10 AM
CJ I had that same thing happen to me about five times over the course of a year and ebay didn't do jack. I ended taking my images down out of frustration.

Did you follow the link and see what I did? I didn't touch the seller's listing, just my artwork!!! So even if eBay doesn't do something, I'm betting that image will be gone from the listing real soon!

Anita and I were just pm'ing that unfortunately it's probably someone on WC, because the photo of the butterfly above my painting in the listing is from our RIL. Makes me wonder what's in the designs they're selling, but I'm not willing to pay the postage from England to see it.

Troy Rochford
09-23-2005, 12:24 AM
Well my issue didn't have anything to do with artwork. I collect extremely rare and extremely expensive vinyl records. I used to have a site with a bunch of images of those records posted. Ripoff artists would sell worthless bootleg copies of the records for hundreds or thousands of dollars, using MY images of the legit records for their auctions. It didn't really affect me directlyl, but I took the images down becz I didn't want to help those scumbags rip people off. I went through a bunch of stuff with ebay over it, including telephone contact. Their standard thing is to end the auction and then sweep it under the rug.

Katherine T
09-23-2005, 02:48 AM
Maybe nobody slaps copyright injunctions on them? (I'd love to know what one of those looks like!)

That butterfly is not currently in the 20 pages of butterfly images in the RIL (I've just checked) - and I recognise it also. I think it might just possibly be in that thread of 1500 photos which people have been perusing recently (and I'm not going through that again). CJ - I think it might be worth sending a PM to Kerri advising her about what has happened to you, especially if both images came from WC.

09-23-2005, 04:17 AM
CJ Sorry to hear about your problems. It is depressing that the site seems to have been plagued with copyright problems recently. These people who abuse the openness and trust of artists really are contemptible. http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Sep-2005/52179-tomaatit.gif

Not to make light of what happened, but I look forward to the day when I produce work that anyone would want to pirate! :rolleyes:

09-23-2005, 05:07 AM
Dave - You shouldn't worship spoons you know!

Not even the fabled Ladle of the Lake?


Anita Murphy
09-23-2005, 08:04 AM
Dave - http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Sep-2005/58769-23460-smiley_too_funny.gif

Anita Murphy
09-23-2005, 09:02 AM
I think I have finished this. I've done the background with the light source as it was in the photo.


I'm really enjoying this class so I have decided to do another drawing. But a little tired of shiny metal :D so I am going to have a go at this - new pic from the ref lib - sorry can't remember who by.


Cathie Jones
09-23-2005, 09:05 AM
pssssst . . . ANITA . . . yer makin' the rest of us look like slackers!!! :evil:

Just kidding . . . the spoons look terrific!:clap:

09-23-2005, 09:11 AM
Rate buster! :evil:

That's a beautiful drawing. I can't wait to see how you handle worn and rusty metal. Maybe I should have a go at some of that...we've got a good deal more metal like that than we do shiny silver!

09-23-2005, 09:51 AM
OMG CJ, that is terrible and I am glad you were able to do some Detective work on your own but so sorry you had to be the one to do it.

Dave that is so cute, you better post that in our goddess challenge in Fantasy. lol

Wow, Anita those spoons are just beautiful!!!! You must frame this and hang it in the dining room. I do love this how big is it? You can make a nice wall arrangement with this ontop of a shelf, along with the actual spoons in one of the box picture window like thingys & a small vase with a flower in it.

I also love your next ref pic, I love old trucks and things. In class 1 there was a student who turned in a wonderful rendering of a truck. Wonder what happened to her, she did that pca so well.

:) hiyas Judi & Mary

Fireman's kid
09-23-2005, 11:23 AM
CJ- So sorry to hear about your eBay woes. I don't get why some people are so thoughtless! Makes me want to find them and smack some sense into them. :mad:

Thought you'd like to know that when I followed your link to eBay this morning, your painting wasn't there. It must have already been taken down. Thank goodness! But I did see this little message at the bottom of the page...
My bet is that was added after you stuck up for yourself. :D Way to go girl!! :clap: :clap:

Anita, those spoons are absolutely fabulous!! Give yourself a big pat on the back. Can't wait to see what you can do with rusty metal!

Not even the fabled Ladle of the Lake?
Dave you are too funny!!

09-23-2005, 12:15 PM
[QUOTE=Cathie Jones]pssssst . . . ANITA . . . yer makin' the rest of us look like slackers!!! :evil: /QUOTE]

NO KIDDING!!!! stop that Anita!!!:evil: I'm just giving you a hard time.:wink2: you have a bad case of metal fever now, i think!!!! LOVE the spoons!!! this is rendering metal at it's finest!!!

09-23-2005, 12:53 PM
Anita! Fantastic! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

CJ-I understand your frustration w/ ebay. Maggie 'sold' her car there and the person never showed. We called but we only got to talk to someone that spoke English once. The rest of the time is was the foreign Grandmother "No speak English". Maggie sold her car then thru a local paper taking a $500 loss from what she was to get on E-bay. Is e-bay doing anything---but giving you a hard time trying to get your message thru. I thought winning a bid was a legal contract-yeah right!
Then the people e-mail Maggie (1 month later) that they are coming to get the car....

Mary Woodul
09-23-2005, 02:00 PM
Anita, now I really don't know if your posting your drawn spoons or your reference. Your rendering on the shine is superb and I love your new reference.

Hi everyone! :wave:

Troy Rochford
09-23-2005, 02:47 PM
Great job A! And the new reference is an excellent choice.

Dave and others - hate to shatter any illusions here, but this is not a "recent" development with eBay. It's been a problem for years, and will continue to be one. Ultimately their liability is limited in the legal sense, so the sad truth is that they don't really care. As long as the overwhelming majority of transactions on eBay are legit (and they are), they aren't going to do a thing about the small percentage of crooks infesting their site.

Cathie Jones
09-23-2005, 04:47 PM
I'm afraid you're right, Troy. But in the case of pirating artwork, my solution worked very well. The seller removed my artwork immediately and sent me an e-mail to say it had been removed - no aplogy, though! So in this case I didn't have to rely on eBay. I've received 2 more e-mails from people who say they've been trying for weeks to get eBay to ban this person, but it hasn't worked so far.

I'm glad we have another week to finish our metal, because that's probably what it will take for me. I have to work tonight and tomorrow and we'll be out of town Sunday . . . but after Monday I'll have some free evenings!

Anita, I'm really looking forward to seeing that old, rusty metal turned into a wonderful work of art . . . and if anyone can do it, you sure can!!!:D

09-23-2005, 04:51 PM
[QUOTE=present]I think I have finished this. I've done the background with the light source as it was in the photo.


I'm speechless, Anita! I'm awarding you my merit point for today.


09-23-2005, 05:41 PM
Anita check your pms please :)

Anita Murphy
09-23-2005, 06:06 PM
Thank you everyone!

Dave - I wish it was silver - just my best stainless steel!

CJ - Thank you!!! Remember I am totally unemployable so have all day to draw - not sure if I would rather have a job or not. :confused:

Sults - My son wants me to do a painting of a room with the table set with the cutlery with the cutlery picture hanging on the wall - and then have that reflected into a picture of cutlery. And then he wants all three!!!! Now he knows what it is to want! Thank you - I am going to take it to the framers tomorrow. Thank you for the PM

Stacy - thank you!

Billie - Metal fever has taken a grip!!!!

Judi - thank you for the clappies!

Mary - Muchas Gracias, amiga!

Michele - I am really touched that you would give me a merit point!

Troy - only possible with a great teacher :p

Made a dent in the car today (not literally!!!) The grill has given me a headache - I must remember to look at the details of pictures before I pick them to do!


09-23-2005, 06:21 PM
Anita, I've got a headache thinking about doing that grill. Or maybe it's the wine.... http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Sep-2005/52179-saufen.gif

Cathie Jones
09-23-2005, 06:21 PM
Anita - you have no idea how I wish I could be totally unemployable - - or wealthy. :wink2:

And as to the dent you made in that car . . .

09-23-2005, 06:30 PM
Wow Anita this could be framed as is!!! I love it :)

Mary Woodul
09-23-2005, 06:39 PM
Wow Anita! you are incredible. You have almost finshed two of these and made masterpieces of them and I can't finish JayD's house that I have been working on all day! :(

Troy Rochford
09-23-2005, 06:53 PM
Great start on the new pic Anita. I don't think you're going to need much help with this one:)

09-23-2005, 06:59 PM
Anita-I love the truck! And the wood looks great too! :clap: :clap:
(Slow down Please you are making us look bad-lol)

Mary-we are in the same boat. I feel like it's sinking! :eek:

CJ that is an awesome AWESOME!

Hi Sults!

09-23-2005, 07:09 PM
ooooooooops I forgot to say... Mary I wub your new avator :)
hiyas Judi :)
lol CJ that is too wild.
To everyone not familiar with downloading smileys (CJ already is careful), just a word of warning, be very cautious when downloading emotes.
They have hidden trojans and spyware. This malware will slow down your computer and load it over and over again till you crash eventually.
If you have downloaded ( do a thourough cleaning of your computer). Panda Scan will find it if you were infected.

Mary Woodul
09-23-2005, 07:11 PM
Hi Judi, :wave: I have never taken so long on a drawing and it is not even good. I got the bright idea to do it in charcoal on the wrong paper, the stump won't slide, the eraser won't erase. I just have a little more to go, so I will see you all a little later. :o

09-23-2005, 07:15 PM
OMG, ANITA!!!! THIS IS GORGEOUS!!!!!!!! that grill work is just amazing!!! i don't know what to say??!! Metal is your forte, lady!!:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

09-23-2005, 07:24 PM
I elect Anita as a subbie for class 27 everyone in favor say AYE!!!
pssst Anita that means when Troy has class 29 and up going on you are to sub all who enter this class. :) Your great at metal gf.

09-23-2005, 07:30 PM
Aye to the Queen of metals!

09-23-2005, 07:32 PM
Aye to the Queen of metals!

Mary, Awe :( -what paper did you use?

Hey All :wave:

Mary Woodul
09-23-2005, 09:17 PM
Aye to Anita!!! :clap:

Judi, since I don't like house drawing very much I used a sketch pad that I have that says Acadèmie drawing pad. It is good for graphite but not for charcoal and I have a pad for charcoal but forgot about it until I was half done. Anyway, I posted it, but I still don't think it is finished, nevertheless I want to get on with my pitcher.

Mary Woodul
09-23-2005, 09:20 PM
Sults, thank you! It is not very visible but I wanted some red to match with your great design in my banner.

Troy Rochford
09-23-2005, 09:57 PM
Mary, stop color coordinating avatars and finish my pitcher!!!!! ;)

Troy Rochford
09-23-2005, 10:24 PM
Hi All!

I was discussing Anita's new picture with her privately and suggested that the class would be interested in hearing her thoughts on how she is approaching this one, with particular emphasis on the wood and the grille. Several people have already commented on the grille, and the wood is outstanding on this.

So, I know you like to be a wallflower Anita and don't relish the spotlight, but pretty please, for the class, step up to the podium and enlighten us??!! I know that you will do this, because you are so kind and wonderful and pretty and smart and all that jazz, so thank you in advance for your thoughts! ;)

I would also encourage anyone who feels comfortable doing so to offer some insight on what you're doing with your project along with posting your progress pics. We can all learn from that info. Thanks!

Cathie Jones
09-23-2005, 10:45 PM
Well, I'd be glad to share my method, but anyone who has read the Attention thread knows that I work by jumping all over the paper like a drunken sailor and putting life jackets on things! :evil:

Anxious to hear how that grille was done, though! :clap:

Troy Rochford
09-23-2005, 10:56 PM
Well, I'd be glad to share my method, but anyone who has read the Attention thread knows that I work by jumping all over the paper like a drunken sailor and putting life jackets on things! :evil:

Anxious to hear how that grille was done, though! :clap:

There's still room for expansion. For instance, how do you decide the COLOR of the life jacket? And are YOU drinking when this decision is made? Do you physically jump around the page as you draw while the paper remains stationary? Or do you rotate the paper? We need to know!!! :D

09-23-2005, 11:36 PM
Hey all,

I'm just popping in to comment on your spoons, Anita. They are fabulous! The truck is looking great too. I'm plugging away on a couple of different things and hopefully I will have something that is somewhat post-worthy by this weekend.


Anita Murphy
09-24-2005, 07:46 AM
Dave - hope you don't have a http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Sep-2005/58769-44366-draggingmorning.jpg this morning!!!

Judi - I will slow down - usually don't draw on the weekend (but may make an exception this week :evil: )

Billie - not really sure why I am enjoying metal so much - must be something deeply psychological.

Sults - Thank you and really I am very flattered that you should suggest I be a subbie. As a newbie to the class (relatively compared to you guys) its a real honour.

Mary - I think you deserve an award for being adventurous with charcoal - one of these days I might try it :eek: but my memories are all of getting very dirty and the paper turning into a smudge nightmare. And you did a great job on that house!

Troy - thank you for asking me to do a demo on my wood and grillwork. I will put that together later when it is light (still pitch dark here) and better for photographing WIP pictures.

CJ - Thank you for commenting on the truck - dents and all. Being unemployable does have it's upside, but tends to restrict what I buy in the way of art materials. Catch 22 - stay at home and do more art so you need more art materials that you can't buy because you stay at home and do more art :confused:
I want a lesson on putting life jackets on boats,monkeys, strawberries! Maybe we could have a class dedicated entirely to lifejackets?????? :p

Anne - thank you for your kind comments.

09-24-2005, 08:17 AM
Dave - hope you don't have a http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Sep-2005/58769-44366-draggingmorning.jpg this morning!!!

That's uncanny...how do you know what I look like in the morning?! :eek:

Mary Woodul
09-24-2005, 10:28 AM
Mary, stop color coordinating avatars and finish my pitcher!!!!! ;)

Yes, Sir!!! Promise to work on it today. ;)

Mary Woodul
09-24-2005, 10:37 AM
Anita, enjoy your unemployment. I though I was never going to have a job again except for my cooking and housecleaning job but now I will be breeding Swiss Cattle. Our son that was doing that, got a better job and will be away for six months, my DH and other two sons have to watch our source of income business, so that leaves only me to plan the genetics of our Swiss Bulls and if I get that mixed up, we will be kicked out fo the Swiss cattle Association. :eek:

Fortunately it will not interfere with the drawing or WC because I will do it from my PC, but I don't know anything about bull breeding. :crying: I will learn.

Anita Murphy
09-24-2005, 10:43 AM
Ok - wood and metal detail.

1.For the wood I first drew guidelines for the planks of wood. Then very lightly shaded with a 5H pencil just to slightly tone the paper.

2. Using a 8B pencil put in the shadow lines under the planks. Then using a 2B pencil draw in the knots.
3. Using a 6B pencil put in the lighter shadow line below the dark shadow of the planks and variations in the wood tone.
4. Finally using a 2B mechanical pencil I drew horizontal lines for the wood grain. No blending here because I wanted to keep some patches of light and some darker patches and keep the lines in the wood visible.
In the truck picture the wood looks like this

For the grill on the truck
1. Draw guidelines for the mesh - it is very evenly spaced. I measured the distances between my guidelines to make sure it was even.
2. Using an 8B pencil I drew little ovals, trying to keep them evenly sized and evenly spaced along the first line. Then draw the second line so that the ovals fall in the spaces of the first line. Continue down the grill. On the far left of the grill where the dots get so close together I just drew lines and wasn't so careful about the spacing. (I wasn't quite so careful in this demo :o )
3. Lightly shade entire area with 6B pencil, not being overly careful about covering entire area as bits of the metal will pick up light. Using same pencil draw along the guidelines to give horizontal shadows.
4. This is how the grill looks on the truck.

Both for the wood and the grill it was surprisingly easy. Hope this all made some sense.

09-24-2005, 10:54 AM
Thanks Anita...that's very interesting. You get my mentor point for the day!

09-24-2005, 11:45 AM
Anita - absolutely fabulous. The image for Dave, the spoons, the truck and most of all the demo. Thanks for that.

09-24-2005, 11:52 AM
This is probably not what you expected. It is not a Harley Davidson, the top speed is 6 mph. But I can no longer drive and want to get further than I can walk for painting and sketching. This picture was taken about a month ago, while the machine was still new. Now it has mud, grass, and a dent or two from where I was stuck in a ditch. A young man stopped and pushed me out. One of the joys of living in the country.
Like Mary, I started without planning and the paper isn't at all suitable for charcoal, but it seemed the right thing for all that dark. And I always forget how much I dislike the mess. And the charcoal pencil would not sharpen, so the edges are much less defined than I would like. And the plastic I put over the scanner is dirty. But here it is anyway.

09-24-2005, 12:03 PM
Anita, thank you so much for the demo!!! looks easy enough. you must be a patient woman! the end result was certainly well worth the trouble!!! you go girl!!!

Connie, this is excellent! your perspective on this great! maybe motorbikes are YOUR forte!!!

09-24-2005, 12:11 PM
Connie, your motorbike is a great segue into my subject. i'm working on chrome handle grips for a Harley. funny you should mention that bike! this is what you should get to beef up your own 'ride'! i JUST did the darkest lines last night. i used my new Micron pen...no charcoal on this project. using the ink on this was nerve racking! it's so PERMANENT!! i'll finish it with pencil.

09-24-2005, 12:11 PM
Anita, your demo makes it look so easy! I don't think I would have the patience to complete that grill though. The piece is looking great so far.

Connie, good drawing of your "wheels". Sorry about the dent, and I'm glad you were okay. I can just picture you zipping around with your art stuff looking for stuff to paint. :)


09-24-2005, 12:20 PM
Anita :wave: -what a great demo-Thanks! :clap: :clap:

Connie Hot Wheels!! :wave: You always suprise me with your project subjects-always wonderful. :clap: I hope you didn't get hurt at all when you were in the ditch did you? You must have been speeding! :wink2: I am so glad you had help!

Mary :wave: Great color coordination on your avatar and sig! :wink2:

Troy Rochford
09-24-2005, 02:30 PM
See Anita, that wasn't so bad, was it?!! :)

Thanks for posting that info. Once again, great job. Be careful what you ask for, though. A class on life jackets??? hmmmmm.....

Troy Rochford
09-24-2005, 02:34 PM
Connie and Billie - good job, and you certainly get points for originality!;) Looking forward to updates. Billie is yours something you're trying to market or just playing around?

09-24-2005, 02:47 PM
Those are awesome grips, Love the darks and the etchings! :clap: :clap:

Cathie Jones
09-24-2005, 02:52 PM
WOW! You guys are really zooming along!

Connie - great zippy chair! Your talent is really blossoming.

Anita - thanks for the demo. This is what visual aids do for me - when I looked at your original drawing, I thought I could never do a grille like that, then when I see the demo it's a whole different thing. I could do that!!

Billie - :clap: Fantastic chrome!!!

I'm working today, so no update unless I finish early . . .

09-24-2005, 03:42 PM
I just remembered that part of the assignment was to post the original photo that we used as reference.

09-24-2005, 03:58 PM
no Troy, i'm not marketing these. just playing around.

09-24-2005, 04:08 PM
Here's my start of a metal drawing. The reference is from the RIL, courtesey of NKBrown. Comments please!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Sep-2005/52179-49800pitcherstrawberries.JPG http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Sep-2005/52179-metal_jug1.jpg

Foz: I love that crome; it looks so...like chrome! :D

Connie: great job on the chair. Hope getting stuck in the ditch wasn't too scary! My mum once did that in her car when I was a kid. We were driving to Wales for a vacation. Luckily, a group of big Welsh rugby players was there, and they lifted the car out with us still in it!

Troy Rochford
09-24-2005, 04:08 PM
Yeah Billie I don't want to run the risk of creating a prob posting the wrong images. Thanks for the reminder, btw. I forgot to complain about you and Connie not posting references;)

09-24-2005, 04:14 PM
Troy, what the heck are you doing here?--your students are turning into BIKER BABES! :D

Cathie Jones
09-24-2005, 06:00 PM
That's us, JayD - bikers in life vests!! :D

DONE! Got my Coming Events pages done and now I can go play . . . :clap:

Just realized I'm running short of time to get this lesson done. We'll be out of town tomorrow, and going to Vancouver next weekend - leaving Thurs. night, not back until Mon. night or Tues.

Fireman's kid
09-24-2005, 06:56 PM
Anita - Thanks so much for the demo on the wood and grill. Like CJ, when I saw that part of your drawing I thought "no, never" but looking at your demo is seems manageable. I must say though that you seem particularly skilled at metal. I'm learning that I am not - at least not the shiney kind. :rolleyes:

Connie - love your wheels! That looks complicated to draw, but you did a good job on it. I'd love to see you driving down the road with your art stuff in the basket. But not stuck in a ditch. :(

Billie - your chrome handle grips are looking great! What a brave woman to ink in the darkest lines. Seems no one can wait to use their new pens. I just saw a post from Dave where he used his too! (Lesson 25 I think.)

Dave - you've been a busy guy this weekend. First a squirrel, now this. Looks like you have a good start. I have but one suggestion...I think the light areas on the right side and the one just to the left of center could be a tad darker.

I actually started working on my drawing today. Forgot how incredibly slow I was when using graphite. :( Put in 2 and a half hours and have barely anything to show for it. Plus I realized just how many reflections there are in my reference. I'm finding it a little overwhelming. I hope to put more time in tomorrow and then post tomorrow night.

Cathie Jones
09-24-2005, 07:05 PM
Grrrrrr . . . this may be the last update you'll see on this one. I decided to remove the masking and it didn't want to come off. Wouldn't peel, wouldn't scrape, wouldn't erase - only the biggest chunks came off leaving sticky, blue residue on the paper. And, of course, the graphite smeared in the process.

Think I'll start something else and let this sit until I decide if I want to continue on it.


Troy Rochford
09-24-2005, 07:10 PM
CJ what paper and type of masking fluid are you using?

Stacy - your sig tells me that your sense of lights and darks is just fine. Don't let this overwhelm you, just take it one section/step at a time and I'm sure you will do fine.:)

Cathie Jones
09-24-2005, 07:27 PM
The paper is Stonehenge - and I should have known that if it didn't like water it wouldn't like masking fluid. Also, the masking fluid is old - and I should have known not to use it. http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Sep-2005/23460-smiley_banghead.gif

Not to worry . . . I'll just do something else for now. Still have this evening and 3 nights next week to work on it.

Troy Rochford
09-24-2005, 07:40 PM
CJ the reason I asked about the masking fluid is that I've never had a problem with it on stonehenge personally. I use incredible white mask. I don't know if I've just been lucky (I've actually only used fluid on stonehenge a few times) or if it is the brand of fluid that makes the difference, but it hasn't been a problem for me.

If your paper is all screwed up though because of the fluid issue, then yeah, I guess it would be silly for me to tell you "YOU CAN DO IT!!!!!" ;)

You'll come up with something. I'd like to see you do this same picture though if you start again. Unless you have something else in mind. I really do like the reference though. :)

Cathie Jones
09-24-2005, 07:52 PM
Thanks, Troy. I use Masquepen and it's normally terrific stuff. It has a metal pin stopper and would have been fine if I hadn't let it fall over and stay that way for months - the pin got stuck and I made the pen-type opening too big when I unstuck the pin, so it was allowed to get too much air - made it sticky, I guess.

Yes, the paper is ruined. I love this ref, too, but as slow as I am, don't think I have time to do it again for this lesson. Maybe I'll use it again when we get to the lesson on drawing strawberries!!! You know, we haven't done fruit, veggies or flowers yet. :D

Mary Woodul
09-24-2005, 07:59 PM
Hi everyone! :wave: Oh, I think I'm lagging behind.

Anita congrats on you wonderful demo and again your update on the car.

Connie, your bike is great and much more being, charcoal. :evil:

Billie, I don't know how you and Anita get those things so shiny. It is looking great. :envy:

Dave, yours is looking good, that is nice choice.

CJ, it is coming along!

Troy, I can't seem to fix this ellipse , you said something about the right angle. The perspective on the book is as bad as the one on JayD's house. :o


Troy Rochford
09-24-2005, 08:05 PM
Mary I need to go back and consult your reference before I can really comment intelligently on this. Bear with me. The beginnings of the shading on your pitcher are looking wonderful though!:) your ellipse looks close. the book looks skewed, but I need to see the ref...

CJ, SLOW DOWN!! We still need to do the class on life jackets, and now you're bugging me about strawberries????!!!!;)

Anita Murphy
09-24-2005, 08:11 PM
Dave - thank you! Doubly! This is a super jug/ewer (wouldn't mind having that myself!) - lovely and SHINY! And I love your Rocky!

Connie - your speed machine is great. Is it fun to ride? I bet you are a regular speed demon on that!

Billie - OUTSTANDING CHROME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CJ - I didn't even know you could use a masking fluid for drawing. I've only come across it for watercolours before.

Mary - your put/jug is super. You've caught that soft look of pewter really well.

Thank you everyone for your comments on my demo!

Update on the truck.

Mary Woodul
09-24-2005, 08:16 PM
Wow Anita, you have really achieved realism in everything you are doing.

Troy, there is something about that book that is giving me trouble. I pm'd you about it, but there is no hurry, I can keep working on the top.

09-24-2005, 08:35 PM
Hi all. :wave:
Just dropped in to see how everyones doing.Good job so far. :clap:

Troy Rochford
09-24-2005, 08:53 PM
Great job Anita. Mary I'll take some time later this eve to do a side by side with your reference like I did for Anita's spoons. Meanwhile, definitely keep working on the pitcher, that is looking great!:)

09-24-2005, 09:00 PM
Connie, bikes are so hard to render and you did a great job on that scooter. :) Now that is economical way to the beat the gas crunch.

Billie, beautiful shiny chrome.

CJ, it is looking like a start of metal.

Mary, is that pewter? I like how you are shading it.

Anita, its looking great and loved the demo, your a natural gf.

Hiyas Bon we miss ya.

09-24-2005, 09:25 PM
I miss you all to.thanks. :)
Hubby is healing well and won't have a full recovery but at least he's still with us.Things are settling down a bit here now and hope to start joining in the fun soon. :wave:

Cathie Jones
09-24-2005, 10:19 PM
Starting over . . . new ref: Milk Cans from the RIL posted by ponting (thank you) . . . done freehand, so I already see some areas that need to be evened out - but it's a start



09-24-2005, 10:27 PM
CJ! :wave: Starting over???? Love the new ref and dwg -but why did you decide not to finish the other? I think one problem would be the ellipses on the can in the upper left are opposite from what you have there in your dwg.

Bon-So happy to hear Hubby is doing better!!!!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Troy Rochford
09-24-2005, 10:28 PM
CJ this is yet another ambitious reference. Should be interesting to see this develop. I'm reserving comment until your next update, as you said you are already planning to make adjustments. I'll just be sitting here looking at my watch, drumming my fingers on the desk, etc... ;)

Anita Murphy
09-24-2005, 11:08 PM
CJ - I have this picture saved to play with at a future date. Looking forward to seeing what you do with this.

Cathie Jones
09-24-2005, 11:16 PM
Judi, you're right about the elipses - I didn't notice that. Thanks. I may finish the other one sometime just for the practice, but the paper is ruined where the masque was, and I don't feel like starting that one over.

Since there are so many adjustments I may redraw it on better paper. The drawing paper I started on has too much texture.

Troy, your fingers may get pretty short if you drum them too long - remember I'll be gone tomorrow and only have a couple of nights next week to work on it. I'll try to hurry before you lose more than one knuckle!!!:evil:

Troy Rochford
09-25-2005, 02:01 AM
Wow Anita, you have really achieved realism in everything you are doing.

Troy, there is something about that book that is giving me trouble. I pm'd you about it, but there is no hurry, I can keep working on the top.

Hey Mary, this may or may NOT help you, because things didn't go as planned...

Since I'm apparently the only artist in America who doesn't have or know how to use photoshop, I planned to do my primitive best and print out your latest update, then draw my corrected lines right on top of yours so that you could see the difference between the two, and how close you are.

Two problems - the lines in question in your drawing are understandably extremely light, and my printer is seriously low on ink. Result: I could barely see anything but the pitcher when I printed it. :eek:

Sooooooo... rather than do nothing and wait to get you to enhance those lines for me like you did before, I decided to play with this anyway. I grabbed a pencil and the printout, and stepped outside to smoke a cigarette. Without looking at the reference, I simply drew the table and book while I smoked a cigarette, and positioned them in a way that looked good to me. When I came back in, I immediately noticed that I put the book at more of a strong diagonal in the composition, but personally I think it looks better that way. You may or may not agree, but it's worth considering. The ellipse of the table is consistent with what yours should be, and yours IS very close.

Anyway, here's what I came up with, and if this doesnt help, email me a scan with your line drawing darkened, and I'll work on it as I originally intended.:)


Mary Woodul
09-25-2005, 08:49 AM
Oh Troy thank you so much, YOU ARE A GENIUS! Your primitive best is a lot easier to understand than anything else. I have printed it. I was just about to throw the book out. I'll do that line drawing and then post a close up of the shading on the body of the pitcher this afternoon. I'm a little worried about that. :( .

Hi guys! :wave: BTW, I didn't notice but I don't know if we have rated this thread, I just did!

Mary Woodul
09-25-2005, 08:52 AM
CJ, I just had to tell you that when I looked for a reference for that drawing I did on the main thread, I had chosen the milk cans first. It's a great choice!

09-25-2005, 09:47 AM
Ohhhh-I think we all got out of the habit of rating the thread! Thanks for the reminder Mary!
Rated. :)

09-25-2005, 09:53 AM
yup and also the one before this was not rated either.

09-25-2005, 10:55 AM
yup and also the one before this was not rated either.
But it's never too late! :D

Troy Rochford
09-25-2005, 12:02 PM
yup and also the one before this was not rated either.
:crying: I don't get ratings and I don't get mentor points. It's a conspiracy against me.;)

Mary I'm glad you got something out of the above. I'll look for your next update! Judi check pms, I sent you something you need to save.

Anita Murphy
09-25-2005, 12:18 PM
Who says you don't get rated?????????????????????????? Aren't 5 stars enough for you :evil: ?

Troy Rochford
09-25-2005, 12:24 PM
Who says you don't get rated?????????????????????????? Aren't 5 stars enough for you :evil: ?

Relax... I'm assuming the 5 stars you are referring to is thread rating. I hadn't noticed. As for personal ratings or "mentor points," I don't even know how to check that, so I have no idea where I stand there! That was a joke. :p

Anita Murphy
09-25-2005, 12:28 PM
I think they tell you your mentor/merit points in an email.

Troy Rochford
09-25-2005, 12:39 PM
I think they tell you your mentor/merit points in an email.

See, then I was right!!! :crying: :cool:

09-25-2005, 02:55 PM
I last got a WC newsletter last November - does anyone know why they have stopped?
and Troy-they (merit/mentor points) were reported there- my total was zero-LOL.
And the five stars are for YOUR thread!

Troy Rochford
09-25-2005, 03:03 PM
Judi I seem to recall getting a newsletter a couple of months ago. Mine have never been consistent though, so I have no idea what the deal is with that. I think I've gotten maybe 3 or 4 the entire time I've been registered here

Fireman's kid
09-25-2005, 05:42 PM
Boy, it's been a busy 24 hours since I was here last!

Anita is almost done her second metal drawing! And it's looking great, by the way. :clap: Poor CJ lost a great start to bad masking. :crying: But is already making a come back with milk cans. :D And Mary is moving on that fabulous pitcher. Way to go Mary!

I have actually been drawing as I promised myself I would have something to post before weekend's end. I took the reference myself and think I should call this "Items I Never Use". Of course there are many more items in my kitchen that qualify in that catagory. :D Once I started drawing I felt that I had been a little overambitious, but oh well.

Here is my reference photo both in color and grayscale.

And my drawing along with a close-up of the area I am currently working on.


As always please C&C away.

Troy, thanks for saying this...
Stacy - your sig tells me that your sense of lights and darks is just fine. Don't let this overwhelm you, just take it one section/step at a time and I'm sure you will do fine.
I needed that encouragement today and it really helped. I started the day by sitting down and writing my value "code" on my reference (1 for lightest, 10 for darkest). Now I can draw without worrying about remembering what is what.

The drawing is done on a Bienfang 55lb. drawing pad using HB, 2B and 4B pencils. As you can see, I did use a grid to get the outlines in. Total drawing size is 6" by 8". So far I have put in about 4 hours of drawing time.

09-25-2005, 05:57 PM
Hi all,

Stacy, I love your reference photo and it looks great so far!

I too promised myself that I would post something by the weekend. I've started three drawings and this is the only one (even though I'm far from finished) that I feel comfortable posting. Unfortunately, I had chosen the same reference as C.J. has already posted. I think I made a poor choice of paper--I can't get the bright whites with a green background. Oh well...


Troy Rochford
09-25-2005, 05:58 PM
Looking good Stacy. I'm not sure what that cookie cutter is made of and what kind of texture it has, but I think what you're doing will actually work to your benefit in the long run. Your pencil strokes are still showing on the cutter, making it look more like brushed metal rather than smooth, ultra-shiny metal. But this is a good thing, because it will contrast very nicely against the smooth, ultra-shiny bowl!:) Keep up the good work! Oh, if you are going to render the wood grain, you need to be careful not to establish some weird, conflicting texture in your cast shadows. Keep your underlying line direction consistent with wood.

Troy Rochford
09-25-2005, 06:04 PM
Anne this is looking good as well! I've actually always wondered how something like this would look on a colored bg with graphite, so it will be fascinating to see this develop. I think the name of the game is contrast, and if you nail that correctly, then it will still read as metal regardless of the actual color of the brightest highlights. The thing that stands out to me at this point with yours is that you need to up the contrast and involve a wider range of values. Looking forward to next update!:)

09-25-2005, 06:26 PM
Stacy, love you reference! is that your own photo? how clever!!! you're doing great w/it, too!!

Anne, i really like the green paper!!! it makes this work look old fashioned. very cool effect!! ask Troy(The 101 Man) if you could use white charcoal or white conte for your highlights. it might be TOO much contrast but man..would it make this still life pop!

Fireman's kid
09-25-2005, 06:28 PM
Thanks for the input Troy. I haven't done any blending yet. Wasn't sure whether to blend on the star or not. It is painted metal so it is a smooth surface but is only highly reflective where the paint has worn off. I like the idea of leaving it "textured" in contrast to the smooth bowl.

What do you think about the wood surface? It is the surface of my drawing table and is very smooth. I'm thinking maybe some light blending but not as much as the bowl. Sound good? As for the wood grain, I'll probably save that for last and see how far I get this week. If I run out of time I'll probably leave it out. ;)

Anne, your strawberries and boat are looking good. I agree with Troy that if you nail the values it probably won't make much difference what color the paper is. If you feel the paper is more of a mid-tone, could you add some white charcoal only to the brightest highlights? I'm not sure that is a good idea or not. But I know others do it when working on toned paper with charcoal.

Edit: Billie, you snuck in while I was typing. Thanks for the kind words. Yes, that is my own photo reference. I scoured my house for metal items and came up with that combo. By the way, I see great minds think alike. We both commented to Anne about using white for the highlights. :)

09-25-2005, 06:44 PM
well, after a few false starts ie. two handle grips and a motorcycle which i'll finish another time for my own enjoyment i landed this ref from the WC Library. the handle grips i couldn't continue w/ for class. there may have been a copyright issue and didn't want to risk that! here's where i'm at w/it right now. also here's the ref.

Troy Rochford
09-25-2005, 06:44 PM
Stacy - It's ultimately up to you, of course, but yeah, if it were me I'd leave the cookie cutter more textured for contrast. If you're undecided about the woodgrain I would suggest also waiting to do any more of the cast shadows along the tabletop until you make a decision (for the reasons previously mentioned). Drop me a pm if you get a chance, btw, I want to ask you something about your photo.:)

Fozzy - lol, Anne doesn't need my "permission" to use white charcoal on this! I don't know if I'd do that, though. If this were a cp piece with some bold colors to kind of balance out the white charcoal, then sure... but graphite and glaring white charcoal on a green bg??? I don't know. I'm all for seeing Anne try it, but if it ruins it, I didn't say nuthin'!!!! ;)

Troy Rochford
09-25-2005, 06:59 PM
Great start Madame Robot. You know the 3 words by now..... :)

Looking forward to next update

09-25-2005, 07:41 PM
Great start Madame Robot. You know the 3 words by now..... :)

I love it? it's just perfect? push your darks???!!!!:evil:

Fireman's kid
09-25-2005, 07:53 PM
Billie - I love the shiney old car! My father in law is really into old cars. I keep thinking some day I may do a drawing of one for him. This is looking good so far, no nits from me. :)

Troy - I thought more about that wood grain and I think I am going to skip it. I'm afraid the texture of the paper will lead to problems with the grain. I'll do my light blending inthe direction of the wood grain on the off chance that solves the problem. :) Plus if I skip the grain I have less to do and might actually make it to that wisk! :D

Troy Rochford
09-25-2005, 08:11 PM
Sounds like a plan, Stacy:)

Fuzzy wuzzy... you catch on fast!;)

Mary Woodul
09-25-2005, 08:18 PM
Stacy, looking good, nice to see a full class here!

Anne, I love your style in this drawing, I can't wait to see it finished.

Wow, Billie you are the queen of shine. That is looking beautiful. Maybe I should send you my pitcher for the shine. :evil:

Troy, I don't know if I am coming or going anymore with this. I think I got the ellipse wrong again but i will fix it and your book looks so much nicer in the drawing than this, I thin it is too slim towards the back, but actually I only worked on the pitcher and I know I'm not finished with the highlights. :( http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Sep-2005/43096-jarra_3.jpg

Troy Rochford
09-25-2005, 08:28 PM
Mary this is looking great! Also remember that your pitcher is not SUPPOSED to shine like Billie's car or Anita's spoons because of the character of the metal. You need to push your darks in the pitcher and punch this up. It's looking great. The ellipse looks good too. Some minor adjustments need to be made on either side right where it meets the pitcher and disappears behind it, but I mean MINOR. Just follow that line like the pitcher isn't even there, and you'll join those sides up correctly. Stop frowning!!!!!;)

Mary Woodul
09-25-2005, 08:31 PM
Which darks am I supposed to push, the shadows in the design or the darks I see. Sorry for the dumb question! :D

Troy Rochford
09-25-2005, 08:41 PM
The whole pitcher needs more varied mids in it, and the darks that you've already established need to be quite a bit darker. Also remember that this is an engraved design, so there should be some very fine, very DARK lines in areas of the design that are not being hit by the light. That's an area where I'd recommend paying close attention to the reference rather than trying to wing it on your own. That's a complicated design, so it's easier to just go by the ref. Also remember that certain areas of the design that have light hitting at a perpendicular angle should have an edge of reflected light adjacent to the indention.

Sounds like a lot of tedious, ridiculous work, I'm sure, but if you work on it and remain patient and have fun with it, this is going to be fantastic!!:)

Mary Woodul
09-25-2005, 08:42 PM
Thank you Troy, I will. :)

Mary Woodul
09-25-2005, 10:04 PM
Troy, I forgot to ask you a question. When I push the darks can I blend or should I try no to?

09-25-2005, 10:23 PM
Mary, i can't believe the progress you've made on your pitcher!!! this is turning out to be beautiful!!! you've done amazing work on the engraving! i'm in awe of this! i'm thinking pewter and duller metals are trickier than shiny metals to render. all that blending...WOW! i'm not much of a blender(?) you know what i mean! anyway, GOOD JOB, Mary!!!

Anita Murphy
09-25-2005, 11:10 PM
Stacy - You have made an outstanding start on the bowl and cookie cutter - well done!

Anne - I like the choice of paper - nothing to say you can't use white pastel/conte to do the highlights is there?

Billie - super car - way nicer than my rusty old truck! That chrome is looking seriously shiny. I think you have a thing about chrome!

Mary - WOW - you went crazy today! Well done - I love this pewter pot - I want it!

Troy Rochford
09-25-2005, 11:31 PM
Troy, I forgot to ask you a question. When I push the darks can I blend or should I try no to?

Mary you want to allow for some texture since you're doing pewter rather than polished chrome or something like that. SO..... yes you can blend, but do so EXTREMELY lightly. You also want to blend from light to dark instead of the reverse. You should identify the brightest highlight area on your pitcher and blend outward from there, following the contours of the pitcher around to the outer edges where it curves around to the back. On either side of the highlight, the further away you get from the highlight area, the LESS you should blend. Let your pencil strokes show through in those shadow areas to suggest the pewter texture of the pitcher. TAKE IT SLOW!!!!!! :)