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View Full Version : Attn: Basic 101 students!!! pen & ink


Troy Rochford
09-14-2005, 12:53 AM
Hi all! Wanted to make sure everyone saw this, so I am starting a separate thread. Okay, a couple of things....

First, several of you have posted and/or told me privately that you would like a class on hair. Can you guys be more specific on what you want to cover? I'm sure this sounds like a stupid question, but I just want to make sure what you guys have in mind. We've had several animal classes, where "hair" is involved, but apparently there is more that you want to explore. So give me some ideas, by all means!

Also, I would like for each of you to go out and buy the following items when you get a chance. This is for an upcoming lesson. If you can't afford the items or whatever, pm me and we'll see what we can do to get around that.

1. Either a 20x30" sheet of plate finish illustration board, or a pad of hot press bristol or something comparable.

2. A .30 or .35 rapidograph pen, or technical pen, or drafting pen.. they are all the same thing - they just may be called any of the above depending on where you shop. In my opinion, the best pens to look for are Koh-I-Noor, Alvin, or Staedtler. I'll update this thread tomorrow with links to some pens in case any of you can't readily find them locally.

Thanks!

Troy

JayD
09-14-2005, 08:08 AM
Troy, I don't know what you are up to but whatever it is--it sounds really cool!

Anita Murphy
09-14-2005, 08:14 AM
What is plate finish illustration board??????????
20 x 30???????? :eek: That is ENORMOUS!!!!!!! :eek: :eek:

Just so happened I am off to the art store today.

IslanderNL
09-14-2005, 09:09 AM
The art store thinks I work just to give them money...they're likely right.

I think I can find that here, but living in small town nowhere, it may be a challenge.

Mary Woodul
09-14-2005, 10:55 AM
I hope it is what is called cartulina here, if not I will have to use just that.

Fireman's kid
09-14-2005, 11:24 AM
Oh boy...now looks like a good time to quit. :evil:
Nah - I'm just kiddin'. I'll try to get to the art store next week.

(By the way, the thought of drawing in ink that can't be erased scares the poop out of me. :eek: I love my erasers. Erasers are my friend.)

Troy, I think the requests for hair refer to human hair versus animal hair/fur.

mothsailor
09-14-2005, 11:33 AM
Covering a 20x30 sheet with a technical pen certainly seems likely to be a challenge! Can you get pads of bristol that big?

Mary Woodul
09-14-2005, 01:21 PM
Troy, I got the illustration board, but now I am wondering if you didn't want the shiny surface one. This one has a matt finish. The word plate makes me think that it is the other one. :confused: BTW it comes in the exact size you asked for.

Troy Rochford
09-14-2005, 01:36 PM
Sorry about the confusion guys. As for the illustration board, it typically comes in 20x30 sheets, which is why I called for that size. The idea is that you will have enough surface to experiment with different projects. You can also buy a pad of hot press bristol (9x12 sheets or something along those lines) or somethign for the same effect, but a pad will just be more expensive. That's up to you though. Btw, plate finish illustration board = hot press, basically. If you get hot press, you're good!

On the hair issue, yeah, i know you guys are talking about human hair, but hair is hair to some degree! If we do a hair class, I just don't want to be going over old ground, covering the same issues that were addressed in the animal threads, because that will be a waste of your time. And wasted time is bad! ;)

Anita Murphy
09-14-2005, 02:36 PM
Sorry - I am being exceedingly dense here. (Too many job interviews has scrambled my brain!) I can't get hot pressed anything but I do have some sheets of archival illustration board - is that suitable?????????

Fozbot
09-14-2005, 03:13 PM
Troy, i have some 400# smooth watercolor paper. i could sacrifice a piece of one sheet. i think it's cold press. anyway....can i use it for this?

Cathie Jones
09-14-2005, 09:19 PM
Troy, I only found one type of radiograph pen on the web - a Koh-I-Noor - and the .30 and .35 sizes are $33 US. Will a Micron do?

I'll check Michael's for the illustration board. I have tons of watercolor paper, but it's all cold press.

mothsailor
09-15-2005, 04:35 AM
Troy, I only found one type of radiograph pen on the web - a Koh-I-Noor - and the .30 and .35 sizes are $33 US. Will a Micron do?


Or a dip pen?

Cathie Jones
09-15-2005, 08:42 AM
Hi Dave!!! Been missin' you . . .:D

Fozbot
09-15-2005, 03:00 PM
:( i didn't even notice we needed a pen! Troy, you better post some links.

Troy Rochford
09-16-2005, 01:17 AM
Hey guys, sorry I didn't update this again yesterday or today but I've been busy trying to catch up on projects. Cathie and Dave, let me do some checking on pens, because I'd really like for you to get specifically what I called for, but I certainly don't expect you to pay that kind of ridiculous price for one pen. Also for the particular exercise I have in mind, cold press will absolutely NOT do!!! But fear not! Like I said, this is just something I'm working on for a future lesson, it's nothing that needs to be resolved right this minute. I'll look into links for both pens and paper. Forgive me if I'm asking for stuff that you can't readily find. I tend to forget that not everyone lives in cities with huge artist communities within them. :(

Cathie Jones
09-17-2005, 05:20 PM
** BUMP **


Hey Teach - ya gotta check your threads once in a while and keep them on the first page . . . :evil:

Troy Rochford
09-17-2005, 08:06 PM
CJ - I'm leavign it alone for now until after I get the new class posted, then I will update this one with links as I can find them. Judging from the flurry of pm's sparked by this thread, I now regret even having mentioned this. It seems to have thoroughly confused just about everyone, and apparently my updates to this thread haven't made things any more clear. Once again though, this was something I wanted to mention in advance of an upcoming class. I didn't mean to stir up a bunch of confusion, etc... I'll post some helpful links on here this week and then you guys just keep me posted on if/when you can locate the materials. We've got all the time in the world to conduct this particular class, so there's no rush. :)

mhimeswc
09-18-2005, 09:39 AM
Fantastic!!! I've been wanting to learn pen and ink work for a long time.

I have a 9x12 pad (somewhere in the confusion of my art supplies) of plate bristol, which I'm guessing is good enough.

I hope you will keep it simple in the beginning. I have found that pen and ink instructional books start out with very advanced drawings that are way over my head.

Michelle

Cathie Jones
09-18-2005, 12:30 PM
Okay - I'm heading off to Michael's (and breakfast and Petco) - wish me luck! No really! Our Michael's is so artistically challenged, they've been having a sale on all Prismacolors for the last three weeks, and they don't carry the big CP sets - boxes of 12 only! Can you believe it? Half the store is fake flowers!

Cathie Jones
09-18-2005, 03:13 PM
I'm back - as suspected, no luck. I did get Micron .30 and .35, afraid that will have to do. The only illustration board they had was "regular light weight" and cold press. No Bristol sheets or pads that said hot press, either. They do have Bristol Smooth and Bristol Vellum Finish - is that the same as hot press? It doesn't specify on the cover.

Troy Rochford
09-18-2005, 03:41 PM
CJ smooth bristol is fine. I thought I'd mentioned that above but I just re-read my last 2 posts and I guess I dropped the ball. I've answered so many ques in PM it's hard to keep track of what I posted in public:(. As for this micron thing, I don't know because I'm not sure I know what you're talking about. I'll look into that as well.

Cathie Jones
09-18-2005, 04:44 PM
Troy, Micron is also a technical pen - just not as expensive!

Naturally, if you get what you pay for, they're probably not as good, but I still haven't found a Radiograph for less than $23.99 (forget where that one was, maybe Blick).

Troy Rochford
09-18-2005, 05:19 PM
Yeah I am finding that out, too. I usually buy sets at wholesale, so I'm totally out of touch with open stock prices. I think the last time I bought a single pen they ran around 15 bucks, lol. I think I know what you're talking about with Micron, but not positive. They're like disposable technical pens or something? If I'm thinking of the same thing, the Michaels by me used to stock these. I found them amusing though, because of that get-what-you-pay-for thing, so I never tried them. I guess if the nibs are of decent quality and they have decent ink (quality AND quantity) in them, they should be just fine though. :)

Judi1957
09-18-2005, 05:25 PM
Troy,
I priced some Koh-I-Noor pens last summer. $29.95! :eek:

Everybody raves about the micron pen (about $4.00). I think they are interchangable.
I liked them but like my Koh-I-Noor's better.

Troy Rochford
09-18-2005, 05:31 PM
Interchangeable how, Judi?

CJ I think you should wear your orange life vest while using your micron pens when we get to this particular lesson, btw.

Judi1957
09-18-2005, 05:33 PM
I mean the pens results are the same.

artdude
09-18-2005, 05:50 PM
I think I know what you're talking about with Micron, but not positive. They're like disposable technical pens or something? If I'm thinking of the same thing, the Michaels by me used to stock these. :)


Hi Troy and others :)
I wrote an article about pen and ink a while ago and it has a lesson with a downloadable line drawing to prtactice on and a bit about microns....if you'd like to check it out, you can find it here :D

"Pen & Ink - Shading/Techniques/Lesson" (http://www.wetcanvas.com/Articles2/3698/194/)


Murray :cool:
------------------

Cathie Jones
09-18-2005, 05:56 PM
Thanks, Murray - we may need all the help we can get!

Okay, Troy, I'm ready . . .

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2005/23460-KateLifevestTiny.jpg

Judi1957
09-18-2005, 11:24 PM
Thanks for the lesson Murray!

Troy Rochford
09-20-2005, 02:34 PM
********* UPDATE!!!!

Ok guys, quite a few of you have expressed here and in PM that you are really excited about a pen/ink class for 101, so I'm going to try to put this together sooner rather than later. Please keep me posted IN THIS THREAD (so that I can keep track!) on the status of your materials.

Pens - Thanks to Murray for posting the above article. I checked into it and yes, the micron pens seem to be perfectly sufficient for this exercise in a pinch. Now, if you can find and/or afford a .30 or .35 rapidograph, fantastic. If not, then you should be able to find the micron pens at Michaels, and I think just about everyone in the world has a Michaels near them!

Paper - While you're at Michaels, I guess the best bet is to go ahead and get a tablet of smooth bristol. If I link you to hot pressed illustration board on line, it's going to end up costing you more in the end after the hassle of paying for shipping, etc...

Now, when you are at Michaels, LOOK to see if they have individual 20x30 sheets of hot pressed illustration board. This seems to vary from location to location, but a lot of them DO stock that. If that's the case, you can get one sheet, have them cut it into quarters for you, and you've got 4 nicely sized sheets to work with for a lot less money than a bristol tablet. On the other hand, a bristol tablet will give you a lot more sheets, so you decide that. Illustration board is more durable and in my opinion a better surface, but bristol is perfectly fine for what we'll be doing.

Any questions, feel free to post here or pm me. Please do post here and let me know when you have the materials in hand for this project. Once it appears that everyone is ready to go, I'll schedule the class ASAP. :)

Thanks!

mothsailor
09-20-2005, 02:37 PM
What's Michaels? :confused:

Troy Rochford
09-20-2005, 02:40 PM
Lol, sorry Dave. Perhaps I should have said everyone in the US may have one near them!! If you are in need of paper for this I'll get you a link.

Mary Woodul
09-20-2005, 03:05 PM
What's Michaels? :confused:

I know what it is but I don't have one. :D Hi Dave! :wave:

Hi Troy! I got the only pad in this city that says hot pressed and it is watercolor paper but I do have a pad of Bristol Smooth, Now I wonder about the pen because it is a Staedtler, but it says pigment liner 0.3 I asked for a rapidograph and that is what they gave me, but I can go see if they have the other.

Anita Murphy
09-20-2005, 03:07 PM
Mary - they have Koh-i-noor pens here in DF so you may be able to get them there - and they were cheaper than the one I got in the States.

Mary Woodul
09-20-2005, 03:10 PM
Thank you Anita, did you find them at a paper store or an art store?

Anita Murphy
09-20-2005, 03:18 PM
In Arte and Materiales - there are many of these stores in DF - not sure if they are country wide.

Mary Woodul
09-20-2005, 03:20 PM
In Arte and Materiales - there are many of these stores in DF - not sure if they are country wide.

No, but I can go see where they sell architectural supplies. Thanks, Anita!!! :)

Troy Rochford
09-20-2005, 07:25 PM
Mary I found an example of the staedtler pen you have, and yes that will be fine. :) Make sure the ink is permanent, archival ink though. The ad that I found didn't specify.

Cathie Jones
09-20-2005, 08:30 PM
I have the Micron pens and Bristol smooth pad . . . guess I'm as ready as I'm gonna get!

Mary Woodul
09-20-2005, 08:34 PM
Thanks Troy, yes it does specify that it is permanent. :)

Troy Rochford
09-20-2005, 10:29 PM
Anita, Stacy raised a good question elsewhere... What's with all the food in your sig and avatar? Makes my teeth hurt! :(

Anita Murphy
09-20-2005, 11:35 PM
Troy - felt like a change and needed some colour in signature line and avatar so I went with cuts from paintings. I Like the idea of having a co-ordinated theme :D

Troy Rochford
09-21-2005, 03:48 AM
For Dave or anyone else that may want or need to order online, these links may be of some interest -

Bristol pads -
http://www.allartsupplies.com/item.php?articleId=1860

This link will lead you to rapidograph pens @ 21.49 each, or micron pens for 2 bucks each. I'd recommend going the extra mile here if you are serious about pen and ink, but for the purpose of the lesson, the 2 buck special should suffice!-

http://www.allartsupplies.com/article.php?sectionId=4

mothsailor
09-21-2005, 09:44 AM
I found a good deal on a set of 3 rapidographs, so I've ordered them. Should be here in a few days...fingers crossed!

Cathie Jones
09-21-2005, 11:22 AM
I'd recommend going the extra mile here if you are serious about pen and ink, but for the purpose of the lesson, the 2 buck special should suffice!-

I won't know until after the lesson if I'm gonna be serious about pen and ink! If so, then I'll buy the good one. :wink2:

Thanks for the links!

Fireman's kid
09-22-2005, 09:13 PM
Well, I decided to skip the 40 mile round trip to the art store in favor of giving Michael's, which is only a 3 mile round trip, a try. Good news is Michael's had what I needed or close enough (I hope). I got a .35mm Micron pen and a large sheet of Bristol smooth paper.

So boss, I'm good to go. :clap:

Troy Rochford
09-22-2005, 09:31 PM
Sounds good Stacy:) You have a top secret high priority pm waiting, too! ;)

Fireman's kid
09-22-2005, 09:57 PM
Thanks Troy! I got that. Now I just have to believe it. :D :p

One thing that I found interesting was your comment (I think it was to CJ in the current lesson) about how watching someone work a whole drawing at once made you nervous (or something to that effect). There seems to be 2 schools of thought...1. work the whole drawing at once so you can judge all the values together against each other or 2. put in your darks and base everything off that. In your pm you mentioned with ink that you establish your darks first.

Prior to coming to WC! I had always heard of the first way. In fact in watercolors I often find myself going back to my darks because once I got my mid-tones in the darks weren't dark enough.

But here on the D&S forum I seem to hear a lot of advice about getting your darks in first. Can you expand on these two opposing ideas at all? And also explain why you like the second way better? I'd find that helpful. Thanks!

Troy Rochford
09-22-2005, 10:06 PM
Thanks Troy! I got that. Now I just have to believe it. :D :p

Tsk, tsk... Oh ye of little faith... :wave:

Fireman's kid
09-22-2005, 10:09 PM
Tsk, tsk... Oh ye of little faith...
Boy, you are fast. You snuck in there while I was adding an edit. :p
Please see my question above.

Troy Rochford
09-22-2005, 10:56 PM
Wow, Stacy, you don't want me to get any sleep tonight or something?!! ;)

Lol, I'll be glad to answer your question but it's kind of a lengthy answer. I'm in the middle of about five things at once right this minute but I will post the answer here tonight. Soon. :)

Troy Rochford
09-22-2005, 11:31 PM
Thanks Troy! I got that. Now I just have to believe it. :D :p

One thing that I found interesting was your comment (I think it was to CJ in the current lesson) about how watching someone work a whole drawing at once made you nervous (or something to that effect). There seems to be 2 schools of thought...1. work the whole drawing at once so you can judge all the values together against each other or 2. put in your darks and base everything off that. In your pm you mentioned with ink that you establish your darks first.

Prior to coming to WC! I had always heard of the first way. In fact in watercolors I often find myself going back to my darks because once I got my mid-tones in the darks weren't dark enough.

But here on the D&S forum I seem to hear a lot of advice about getting your darks in first. Can you expand on these two opposing ideas at all? And also explain why you like the second way better? I'd find that helpful. Thanks!


Okay, I'll get into this when we do the class also, but here is a sort-of condensed answer to your question.

First, for the benefit of others, let me give a little background on what you and I were discussing off the board. Your main point to me was that you were nervous about pen and ink because of the inability to erase, and I answered by pointing out that this can actually be a benefit rather than a hindrance, and here's how:

For starters, though I'm sure there are pen and ink artists out there who do absolutely everything from start to finish in ink, including the initial line drawing, I'm not one of them! I'm not aware of any rule that says you are not allowed to do your initial line drawing in pencil (thus allowing you to erase and correct until you get it right), and if there IS such a rule, well then I'm a lawbreaking maniac and I don't care!!! :D If someone is good enough to do the initial line drawing in ink, my hat's off to them, but I consider that an unnecessary gamble personally.

Now, once you have your line drawing set, here's how working in ink can benefit you rather than hurt you. My comment to you in the pm was that you can establish your BLACKS (** this is a critical distinction. Not "darks," because that can involve a wide range of values. I'm talking about pure blacks.) first and let those serve as a visual guide when establishing your other values. Because it is ink, you can pretty much put all of your blacks in all over the entire picture first thing, because unlike graphite and other dry media, you don't have to worry about the blacks smearing all over the paper as you work. Now, the key here is, unless you know it is going to be pure black, don't put it in. If you DO know that you want pure black, then ink it in, and you shouldn't have to return to it later and darken it. (There is an exception to this, but we'll get into that in the class.) Just for clarification, though, I didn't say that I always do this. I just said it is an option that is often helpful, especially if you are doing a really complicated piece with a ton of values in it. I kind of alter my approach from project to project personally, depending on my mood that particular day, or what works best for the project, and so on...

My other comment about the erasing issue was that, when it comes to the occasional stray mark or whatever, most styles of pen and ink are considerably more forgiving than graphite, charcoal, etc.. With graphite, you can erase your stray marks, of course, but the thing is that (with pen and ink) unless you have drawn a glaring stray mark in the middle of a designated white area or something, then you shouldn't even HAVE to worry about correcting it. Most of the stroking techniques in that medium simply lend themselves to a looser overall style without crossing over into the area of "sloppy looking." That's a finer point that can probably be better illustrated with demos, which I'll do when the time comes.

Now your other question about my comment to CJ... what I was saying was that, particularly in graphite work, I just find it easier to work in tighter areas and work them almost to completion before moving on to another section of the piece. My approach in that regard is similar to Armin Mersmann's, and you can see examples of what I'm talking about if you look at a couple of my recent graphite WIPs. Now, as my birth certificate and artistic proficiency clearly establish that I am NOT Armin Mersmann, I generally still end up going back and fine tuning areas that were supposedly "done," but for the most part I just start in one spot and slowly build from there until I'm done, instead of doing a little bit here and then jumping across the page and doing a little bit there, etc.. There's nothing wrong with either approach, but for me, the way I do it makes more sense, keeps my drawing from getting so messy, and I find it easier to follow the tonal flow of my reference if each value I am putting down has an adjacent point of reference that is already somewhat complete. Lord I hope that makes sense! I'm trying to rush here so I hope I'm at least speaking English, lol.

If I missed anything just let me know. :)

Cathie Jones
09-23-2005, 12:04 AM
Now your other question about my comment to CJ... what I was saying was that, particularly in graphite work, I just find it easier to work in tighter areas and work them almost to completion before moving on to another section of the piece. My approach in that regard is similar to Armin Mersmann's, and you can see examples of what I'm talking about if you look at a couple of my recent graphite WIPs. Now, as my birth certificate and artistic proficiency clearly establish that I am NOT Armin Mersmann, I generally still end up going back and fine tuning areas that were supposedly "done," but for the most part I just start in one spot and slowly build from there until I'm done, instead of doing a little bit here and then jumping across the page and doing a little bit there, etc.. There's nothing wrong with either approach, but for me, the way I do it makes more sense, keeps my drawing from getting so messy, and I find it easier to follow the tonal flow of my reference if each value I am putting down has an adjacent point of reference that is already somewhat complete. Lord I hope that makes sense! I'm trying to rush here so I hope I'm at least speaking English, lol.

So, are you saying here that you're copying the photograph exactly, so you don't need to relate one part of your drawing to another part of your drawing, as in the reflections we're doing now in 27?

I think the reason I'm jumping all over the page is because I'm trying to relate everything to everything else on the paper, while still trying to copy the photograph - at least the shapes - fairly closely.

It could also be a holdover from watercolor, where you paint one part and while it's drying, you skip to something else. And values are built up slowly, light to dark, rather than quickly and dark to light.

Troy Rochford
09-23-2005, 12:11 AM
CJ you'd run from the room screaming if I showed you a painting of mine so I can't comment on that, but your point seems valid there. As I said though, there's nothing wrong with the approach that you use, it just doesn't work for ME.

As to your question though, no I'm not saying that you ignore other things in the pic, but it shouldn't make a difference if you train your eye to see and draw WHAT YOU SEE!! If you can see the reflection of the strawberry in the gravy boat, then draw it. Why do you need to see the strawberry in order to be able to render its reflection? It might be better if you CAN'T see the actual strawberry. Then you won't be subconsciously tempted to skew your reflection in accordance with what you "think" a strawberry's reflection should look like!! ;)

mothsailor
09-23-2005, 11:35 AM
My rapidographs have arrived! I've just noticed that the Bristol pad I have is vellum not smooth. I think vellum is slightly less smooth than smooth, but it's still smoother than anything else I've got so I hope it will be OK!

They are very smooth, but the line is a bit boring...it's always the same width!

By the way, do they need any special maintenence? The box mine came in includes something called a pen station, which seems to be a thing that clips to the box that the pens fit in to. Not sure what the point of that is.

Fireman's kid
09-23-2005, 11:40 AM
Okay Troy, far as I can tell you were actually speaking (typing) English. That's a good start as I'm not fluent in any other language. :p I get what you are saying about the looseness of marks in pen & ink. Also see how I missed the distinction between darks and blacks.

I am a work all over the page type person and am amazed when I see the other style done as a WIP. It seems to me that it would be difficult to get your values correct in one small section of drawing without seeing the values in the rest of the drawing.

But last night I came to the same realization as CJ. I think this is from working primarily in watercolors prior to this class. I've been "taught" not to finish one section of a painting because it is harder to judge your values correctly when compared to the white of the paper. This is a bit hard to "unlearn". And I do know watercolorists who complete a small area of their painting before moving on to the next small area so it's even done both ways in watercolor.

The other thing I realized reading your response is that I don't have a lot of experience judging values. I think the more time I spend drawing and painting, the better I will get at judging values. And maybe after 20 or 30 years I'll feel comfortable judging a value without seeing the other ones around it or across a page.

Thanks for answering my questions! I think I'm starting to look forward to this ink class. But first I have to get moving on metal.

Cathie Jones
09-23-2005, 12:05 PM
I think Stacy's response pretty much explains what I meant. I wasn't talking about shapes so much as values when comparing one part of the drawing to another. The shapes are hard enough for me, but values are really difficult.

Judi1957
09-23-2005, 12:28 PM
Dave,
You will love the rapidiographs! The pen station sounds like a holder to me-that's all.
Maintenance.
When you fill w/ ink-fill completely (but make compensation for the part that fits in the ink reservoir) to avoid air bubbles in the pen. To get the ink started-shake gently w/ the tip down-lol-not over your clothes though-just in case (I have never had an accident that way-but ya never know!)
Clean after the pen is empty. Careful when you clean it. Take it apart carefully. There is a small wire in there you do not want to bend. I clean w/ a q-tip and hot water. The ink can dry in flakes so you want to make sure it is perfectly clean and DRY so you do not have clogs or diluted ink.

mothsailor
09-23-2005, 12:45 PM
Thanks Judi!

Troy Rochford
09-23-2005, 03:07 PM
CJ - let's consider the strawberry reflection for a minute so you can understand where I'm coming from here. You were talking more about values than shapes, fair enough, but my argument applies to both. It sounds like your and Stacy's reasoning for wanting to drift all over the page to keep your values in check is the exact same reason that I do the opposite. So we are all following the same principle, we just arrive at our destinations differently.

You basically say you need to see the strawberry (values, shape, whatever) so that you can better judge what the values in the reflection should be. In other words, as you are toning in the strawberry's reflection, you want to put in values relative to the already established values in your strawberry. That makes perfect sense. But I submit to you that it makes just as much sense, and follows the same philosophy, if you use the values of the gravy boat itself as a guide, rather than the strawberry. When you are talking about values, every mark you make on paper has a certain relationship to the value immediately next to it. So, while it may be easier for you to look at a certain finished area of the strawberry and use that information to determine how dark or light the corresponding area of the reflection should be, it is just as easy for ME to look at the value of the area immediately adjacent to the one I'm doing, and duplicate THAT value contrast.

Think of it this way. My philosophy is like handwriting. If you were to write my last name, R-O-C-H-F-O-R-D, what would be the easiest way to get the spacing, letter size, and all that stuff correct and consistent? Would it be easier to write the first R, then the D, then the H, and then fill in the rest as it relates to the R,H, and D? Or would it be easier to write the first R, then use that R as a guide to help properly write the O, then the C, and so on? Both are going to give you a similar result in the end. It's just a matter of what works best for you. Personally, if I tried the jump around method of writing my last name, I might end up with a different last name by the time it was all over with!!;)

At any rate, if you get the best results by standing on your head and drawing with the wrong hand, then that's what you should do! I'm not here to change anyone's style or approach. The specific methods that I talk about are simply MY methods, but they either work for you or they don't. You should never accept one person's method as the "right" way and force yourself to conform to that if it doesn't work for you. Especially not MINE!!

You guys do raise a good point about painting too. I don't paint, and though I do work in CP, I primarily work in b/w. Maybe for that reason it is easier for me to read values in b/w and build as I go in small areas, just as your painting method of wandering all over the page like a drunken sailor seems logical to you but greek to me;). I don't know, I honestly never thought about that. CJ the important thing here is that you do not put a life jacket on the gravy boat. That's what it all comes down to.

Troy Rochford
09-23-2005, 03:16 PM
Sorry Judi, I have to disagree on one point based on personal experience -

DON'T SHAKE RAPIDOGRAPH PENS AT ANY TIME!!!!! You can break and/or cause major air bubble probs, etc.. The one change I would make to Judi's tips on rapidographs would be that when you first fill the pen and want to get the ink started, gently TAP on the back end of the pen with the nib pointing down. Everything else Judi said is 100% USDA choice beef, folks! (That's good!) :)

Judi1957
09-23-2005, 05:50 PM
Sorry to disagree w/ you Troy :p :p -but I used them every work day for 10 years when we hand drafted. And let me tell you-I put down a lot of miles of ink. :D
LOL-don't violently shake it, maybe shake was the wrong word. Just a back and forth GENTLE motion to get the ink into the tip.
Or Troys method. :D

Troy Rochford
09-23-2005, 06:14 PM
Judi your clarification above makes it a little less horrifying, but I still say shake at your own risk.:) And yes, I've used your method countless times as well with no prob. But I've also used that method and screwed my pens up! Maybe you have magical powers!

Judi1957
09-23-2005, 06:17 PM
Maybe you have magical powers!
Yep.
Or maybe a man's harder 'shake' and a softer woman's 'shake'.

mothsailor
09-23-2005, 06:23 PM
I read the instructions that came with the pen, and it does say to shake them when you first use them! Anyway, they work, and I'm not covered in ink (yet!).

Troy Rochford
09-23-2005, 06:30 PM
Okay then. Shake away! As often as possible, in fact. Carry on.

Edit - Lol, I didn't intend to get into a big argument over this issue, so I'm done with it. As I indicated, my philosophy on this pen issue is based on personal experience. However, for the record, I consulted my instructions also from the last set of koh-i-noors that I bought, and they read as follows:

To start ink flow, hold pen point down and tap the back of holder. Holding pen in vertical position, draw on a scrap piece of paper until consistent flow of ink is established. DO NOT shake pen. Shaking will damage and/or cause the pen to eventually leak.

Judi - actually you DO have magical powers, though! Check email on sig. :wave:

mothsailor
09-23-2005, 06:45 PM
Well, now I've read this thread I'll shake them a lot more gently in future! And I won't hold them over my face while I do it...

Judi1957
09-23-2005, 06:48 PM
NO NO DAVE DON'T SHAKE!!!! :eek: :eek:

Mary Woodul
09-23-2005, 06:51 PM
Hi All! :wave: Troy, I finally found a Staedtler rapidograph and vs. the pigment liner the point is much thinner, plus the point on the pigment liner looks like a felt pen. What I want to know is if, I can used some ink that I had from a previous one of another brand. It still sounds liquid but it is at least five years old if not older. :( I didn't think of the ink when I was at the store because I thought it had a full cartridge. :(

Troy Rochford
09-23-2005, 06:59 PM
Mary I would recommend just getting a bottle of black india ink. they're very cheap, good quality, and go a long way. That's what I do, at least.

Mary Woodul
09-23-2005, 07:01 PM
Fine, I have some here, so I'll do that! ;)

Fozbot
09-23-2005, 07:25 PM
all i could get my hands on for paper is a sheet of Strathmore 500 Bristol 3 ply plate (hot pressed) and it's nice and smooth. and one Micron pen... size .30. will this do, Troy? also my pen came w/ink already in it. when it runs out i can refill w/India ink...right?!

Troy Rochford
09-23-2005, 07:35 PM
Billie I believe those micron pens are non-refillable, but I'm not sure. At 2 bucks a pen, I wouldn't expect to be able to refill them. The paper you got is perfect. In fact that's what I linked above... or well, SOMEWHERE in this thread!

Judi1957
09-23-2005, 07:59 PM
Troy,
Got my paper too. Did I order the right thing??-this is what I got.. (http://www.dickblick.com/zz134/13/)

Fozzie-Microns are not refillable.

Troy Rochford
09-23-2005, 08:05 PM
Yeah that's good Judi. I use that a lot myself.

Cathie Jones
09-23-2005, 08:51 PM
Judi, did you get medium or heavy weight?

Judi1957
09-23-2005, 09:24 PM
The medium 14 ply. the $6.29 one.
Actually it came in damaged on the sides and they are replacing it.

Troy Rochford
09-23-2005, 10:07 PM
CJ if you're curious, the surface is the same with both. The weight is in the backing. Heavy weight is just much more sturdy, almost like a built-in drawing board.

Cathie Jones
09-26-2005, 09:17 PM
Update: Jerry's Artarama is having a sale . . . Radiograph pens for $18.19

http://www.jerrysartarama.com/

Troy Rochford
09-26-2005, 11:50 PM
Where do we stand on this? Who still needs to go shopping?

StancyMcKatt
09-27-2005, 01:59 AM
I can't afford to go out and buy any new pens right now, so will these work?

https://www.megagear.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=65

The closest to illustration board I have is Vellum Coated Bristol board. I might manage to get some illustration board, but I can't really afford it right now. ^-^;

Troy Rochford
10-01-2005, 07:18 PM
I can't afford to go out and buy any new pens right now, so will these work?

https://www.megagear.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=65

The closest to illustration board I have is Vellum Coated Bristol board. I might manage to get some illustration board, but I can't really afford it right now. ^-^;

I looked at your link, but there is no specific info as to what type of nibs these pens have, so I don't know whether they would work or not. Do you already own this set or are you considering buying it? If your primary concern is cost, the link that I posted earlier in the thread will take you to micron pens, which WILL work for the class and are considerably less expensive than the set that you linked above.:)

I'm assuming that since you are the only person who has posted since I asked who still needs to get supplies that everyone else already has theirs. That's a good thing, because the class is coming soon! :evil:

StancyMcKatt
10-02-2005, 12:11 AM
Two are brush pens, the others are technical I think... Kinda like ball points only long and thin. I have some other kind of dip pens as well.. No worries though. I'm used to figuring out how to improvise if need be. ;)

Judi1957
10-02-2005, 10:20 PM
Troy-
Crys's pens look like this. (http://www.akadotretail.com/shop/shop_showbook.php?id=multiliner_a2)

Troy Rochford
10-03-2005, 05:27 PM
Troy-
Crys's pens look like this. (http://www.akadotretail.com/shop/shop_showbook.php?id=multiliner_a2)


Maybe I'm getting old or my computer sucks or both, but that pic looks rather small and rather blurry on my end, and I can't tell definitively what is going on with the nibs. They LOOK like they'll probably be fine, and Crys said she likes improvising, so I guess we'll find out soon enough! :p

Troy Rochford
10-04-2005, 03:16 PM
FYI - It's official! Class 29 will be the Barnstorming Freakshow of Inkslinging Mayhem!

Just a heads up... carry on;)

Judi1957
10-05-2005, 12:36 PM
FYI - It's official! Class 29 will be the Barnstorming Freakshow of Inkslinging Mayhem!


:eek: :eek: :eek: Backing up real slow! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Troy Rochford
10-05-2005, 05:55 PM
Not only that, Judi, but when I write up the class, I'll have my psychedelic lollipops that I received today from Mary sitting right beside me! That will add power and wisdom to my teachings!!;)

Fozbot
10-05-2005, 06:53 PM
:eek: :eek: :eek: Backing up real slow! :eek: :eek: :eek:

i'll be behind you, Judi...........

Cathie Jones
10-05-2005, 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by Troy Rochford
FYI - It's official! Class 29 will be the Barnstorming Freakshow of Inkslinging Mayhem!

:eek: :eek: :eek: Backing up real slow! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Oh boy! Not me!! Going forward full blast - that title sounds like something Stephen King would write, and I'm always ready for a Stephen King freakshow!!!

BTW - I ordered the Radiographs before we left and they were waiting for me when we got home. I filled one (easy peasy, as a British friend would say) and the ink flows easier than the Microns. I didn't order paper - Bristol smooth will have to do.

BRING IT ON!!!

Troy Rochford
10-05-2005, 07:35 PM
i'll be behind you, Judi...........

Weren't you one of the ones who specifically wanted a pen and ink class? Now you're trembling in fear? :eek:

Mary Woodul
10-05-2005, 07:56 PM
Not only that, Judi, but when I write up the class, I'll have my psychedelic lollipops that I received today from Mary sitting right beside me! That will add power and wisdom to my teachings!!;)

What you don't know Troy is that those lollipops are hot inside so they will give extra powers. :evil: I ate one and it seems they can't make any candy down here without putting tamarind and chili powder in them. :( But since you will have them next to you, they will add power and wisdom to your teachings! ;)

Troy Rochford
10-05-2005, 08:23 PM
Mary you should see if you can rustle me up some habanero-pops! mmmm-mmmm good!

Judi1957
10-05-2005, 08:35 PM
Welcome back CJ! :wave: :wave:
Hope you had a great trip.

LOL-Troy-I am excited for this project too...you just say some pretty wild things-I can't remember the last time I heard the word psychedelic. :eek: :eek:

Troy Rochford
10-05-2005, 08:46 PM
LOL-Troy-I am excited for this project too...you just say some pretty wild things-I can't remember the last time I heard the word psychedelic. :eek: :eek:

That's it! I'm scanning the pops!
And as for the last time you heard that word, well... have you ever had occasion to sit around doing bong hits with Anita, talking about the artistic genius of Pablo Picasso, and recounting tales of the ancient master, Bruce Lee? It may have come up in that type of setting. ;)

Anita Murphy
10-05-2005, 10:56 PM
Bruce Lee was never mentioned!!!!!!!!!!

Troy Rochford
10-05-2005, 11:03 PM
Bruce Lee was never mentioned!!!!!!!!!!

I remember it clearly. You took a mighty draw off of the skull bong, turned to me, and said, "Troy, let me tell you.... Lee was very baaaaad, man! He would reach into your chest... take out your heart.... and show it to you before you died..... Now let me ask you, how do I know that the color blue to me is the same as the color blue to you?" :D

Anita Murphy
10-05-2005, 11:15 PM
You Liar!!!!!!!!!!

Troy Rochford
10-05-2005, 11:25 PM
You Liar!!!!!!!!!!

All right, fair enough... so you didn't ask about the crayon colors. :p

Anita Murphy
10-05-2005, 11:44 PM
?????????????????????????????

Troy Rochford
10-05-2005, 11:53 PM
You're high NOW, aren't you, A?!!!;)

Anita Murphy
10-06-2005, 12:02 AM
speechless!!!!!! Just cos I like Pablo and you don't!

Troy Rochford
10-06-2005, 12:09 AM
What does that have to do with Bruce Lee? I do like Bruce. I'm right there with you on that one! :)