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Troy Rochford
08-29-2005, 12:53 AM
Basic 101: Class 26
Deja Vu

Well, hello all! Before we begin, allow me to formally introduce myself for the benefit of those who do not know me. You already know my name, and my bio as it relates to art is remarkably dull and uneventful. The level of my artistic ability is debatable, but for better or worse, I was born with it. Neither of my parents could ever draw a straight line, but at various points in time, my mother’s sister, father, and grandfather, and my father’s mother, father, brother, and two sisters were either professional artists, or good enough to pursue such a career. So you could say that the odds were stacked in my favor.

However, this has its drawbacks. Coming by artistic talent naturally, I was always arrogant enough to eschew the idea of formal training, which haunts me more than you could imagine. I’ve been drawing all my life, and know some advanced techniques backwards and forward, but I lack some of the fundamental knowledge that I would have received from a structured training program. I also have a horrible tendency to get frustrated and/or bored with art and go years without drawing a single thing. Because of these shortcomings, I have spent my entire life in a sort of artistic rut, taking one step forward and two steps back, as the saying goes. In many ways, I need this 101 class more than any of you, and more than some guy walking down the street who has never attempted a drawing in his life.

"More," you demand, hanging on my every word??? Well, okay...

A few years ago, I walked out of a high paying corporate job and decided to try art full time. It has been a struggle at times, but liberating just the same. Unfortunately, though, even doing art for a living doesn’t protect me from myself. I was recently bitten by the bug of frustration and self-doubt, and took the better part of a year off – living on my savings and focusing on non-art related pursuits. As a result, I’m now a lot less comfortable financially, and a lot less proficient artistically. I returned here in an effort to regain my motivation, and it is working, in large part thanks to Jay and this class.

And on that note, I want to sincerely thank Jay for launching this class, helping to keep me motivated, and finally for having enough faith in me to entrust me with the future of this class. I am here to learn just as all of you, and I only hope that I can do an adequate job of inspiring you guys and keeping this program interesting so that we all benefit. I promise that I will do my best in that regard.

Now, preliminaries aside, I’d like to begin this week’s class with an observation and a question. What I’ve observed lately is comments to the effect that this program will inevitably come to an end, perhaps even in the near future. My question is: WHY? Why do the classes have to end? Are we nearing some predetermined point at which we no longer require any learning or exploration? There are a lot of clichés in the art world, but one that I believe has merit is the one about the true artist being a life-long student. Show me an artist who feels no need for further learning, and I will show you an artist whose stagnant, complacent mentality and lack of inspiration show through in his work.

It is clear to me that most if not all of us agree that this 101 program has served invaluably in the development and improvement of its participants. Jay has established this program as one of the best things that ever happened to this forum. I plan to continue that tradition for as long as I am afforded the honor, and I hope to see someone do the same when I move on.

Now, that said, the immediate issue is to finish out this first year of classes. As I have only recently come back from my ill-advised hiatus from the art world and WC, I am not as in tune as I would like to be with each of your personalities, styles, interests, and goals as artists. I hope that you will help me to solve that dilemma, if you will indulge me this radical departure from the normal flow of the class.

I would like for this week’s focus to be you leading me. I ask that each of you think about what you’ve learned so far, and where you want to go from here. What do you want to learn? If YOU conducted the next class, what subject, style, or technique would be the primary focus? I’m asking that you briefly introduce yourself to me by telling me what your goals are individually and what you would like to see us explore in the future. I know this sounds hokey, but humor me, huh?! ;) This will genuinely help me to get a pulse on who you are as individuals, what your artistic interests are, and the direction in which we should head from here. This is a bit of a transitional week, and we WILL move forward with the next class. Where we go with the next class is up to YOU , and this is your opportunity to drive that decision-making process. :wave:

OH YEAH... I almost forgot! There is the little matter of a drawing assignment (come on!! You didn't think you were getting off THAT easily did you? I said "transition," not "vacation"!!!!)

Now, it's one thing to think about what you've learned so far. It's even another to talk about it. But what I'm interested in is seeing you DEMONSTRATE it!! The assignment is simple. Re-do your pre-class assignments (specifically item #2 from the assignment in the link provided below), post the results here, and let's guage the extent to which this class has helped you to improve. If you did not DO a pre-class assignment, well, there's no time like the present!

Pre-Class Assignments (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221326 )

In closing, um... Anita, CJ, and Fuzzy Robot, push your darks!!! ;) :evil:

Happy Drawing!

Cathie Jones
08-29-2005, 01:13 AM
Oh, you evil man! :evil: I had hoped never to have to see that stupid boat again!!!

Okay, okay . . . I'll do it.

My initial goal was to learn to draw in order to improve my watercolors. I loved to draw as a child but nothing I did passed muster with my evil step-father. He just put everything down without offering help. So I quit drawing, but never got over wanting to do it.

Thanks to JayD I've learned a lot more than I expected and my goal now is to improve my drawing to the point that it can stand alone - without paint. Although, I have to admit I still have watercolor flowing in my veins, it's tempered with graphite now. And maybe CP if I can learn patience.

I hate to throw in the dreaded 'p' word here (perspective) but I just can't seem to get it. So, that's something I'd like to do more of here. Also landscapes - flowers - trees - more animals - shiney stuff - everything, I guess. It's all fun.

Like you, Troy, I don't ever want Basic 101 to end. I'm retiring from my 'day job' in October and will be down to just one job, so I hope to have more time then to devote to practice. Until then, I'll keep plodding along and completing as many of the assignments as I can. And pushing darks, of course. :D

Thanks for taking us on, Troy. JayD has left you some big shoes to fill (I think it's the clown shoes) - and I'm sure you'll do fine. Just don't lose your sense of humor and we'll get along great!!!:evil: :angel:

08-29-2005, 06:08 AM
Hi Troy! :wave:
Thanks for the intro and filling in the blanks on your background. :)

I always was sorry I picked the pre-class assignment I did. :eek:

Still getting in my first cuppa joe so I really don't have much more to say right now, except - Thanks Troy!

08-29-2005, 06:22 AM
Troy, EXCELLENT class. I will be watching with great interest. Judi, shake the dust off of the boat! Troy, one thing that I found that by teaching the class I was doing more and more learning so you will benefit from these excercises and if you want to extend the classes beyond its fory week mission--I say go for it!!!

Mary Woodul
08-29-2005, 07:55 AM
Troy, excellent introduction and I couldn't expect less from you. I'm going backwards, Troy. I started painting first, abstract and expressionistic Mixed Media for ten years and now I am learning to draw, thanks to JayD. ;)

Anita Murphy
08-29-2005, 08:34 AM
Guess I get to escape this one! I didn't even know there was a pre-class assignment till last week! :D Will be thinking of you all!

Cathie Jones
08-29-2005, 08:45 AM
You know, Troy, Anita has a point. I think there are only 4 or 5 of us still here that started with the pre-class assignment. What is everyone else doing?

08-29-2005, 08:45 AM
Troy, Great start on your first class :) I liked hearing about your journey with art.
I went back to look at my p.c.a. and saw that it was another drawing I did from imagination (when I completed it my sister thought it looked like me, does this mean I need to do another sp?)
Anyways, well I was back there I read my 2nd post and it kinda describes my journey with art so here it is....

Hi Sultry--that is a lovely portrait. Those eyes are captivating--I would not mess with them. I like the hair--I think in this picture you have to think about your lights and darks and creating contrast in order to make the picture interesting. I want you to take a mirror and hold it up to the picture--see if it shows you anything askew--then share it with us. this is a great start.

Thank you Jay for the sweet comments :) I have just recently picked up the drawing pencils again....for years I was not producing a thing :(
But by visiting certain sites and pouring over other artists comments on how they have achieved such beautiful works of art, I felt I could open my mind and educate myself to learn more in this field by allowing constructive critique to help improve my skills. I have always been one too afraid to show my work lol. I think it has alot to do with my father always telling me that I should be doing something constructive and not doodling my life away...but you know after he passed I found out he really liked my art.
anyways, this is getting too long sorry for that...
I am going to say that I noticed my values all blend together as a same tone and do not really bounce out at the viewer and this makes my portrait look flat. Helpppppp :confused: I need to know how to use the kneaded eraser and how to use presure on my crosshatching lines so they give distinctive grey values.
Oh and as for perspective umm... I am horrible at it. :(
last but not least,,,how to blend correctly, I have a tendacy to blend it all to one shade.
Last edited by sultry : 10-19-2004 at 08:40 AM

By the way Jay, Thank you I did learn what I wanted to learn & I am still learning. :)

Anita, I think you should do whatever drawing you did before you started the class, was it not a portrait of your son? I know it was not for the class but it was what you worked on before you started the class.

08-29-2005, 09:37 AM
Go Back And Do A Preclass Assignment--or Better Yet Show Us A Drawing Prior To Basic 101-now Redraw That One--see Anita--you Dooooo Get To Participate.

08-29-2005, 09:42 AM
CJ's statement sounds like it could have been written by me.

I also started this class to help me with my watercolors. Drawing has always been a weak point in my w/c's. During this class I've come to love drawing for it's own sake, and have had a lot of fun (and learned a lot too) with most of these lessons. In the past, I have only completed sketches - that is, I've mostly quit too soon because I didn't know what more to do with a piece. During this class I've learned how to continue until I have a more finished drawing, and I've really surprised myself with some of them.

I too have always done things backwards. I've played with art all my life, but started to take it seriously when I discovered watercolor. I got a few books and started painting. Then I decided maybe I should take some classes to learn to do it right. After about 6 years of watercolor class I decided that I needed to learn to draw.

I too still have a problem with perspective. I understand the concept, and can draw a generic box with all the vanishing points, but I have trouble actually putting this skill into practice on actual buildings, boats, etc. It's just kind of a trick I know, and does not really affect my day to day drawing ability (or lack thereof).

I also did a lot of travelling this year, and missed some of the classes. I have tried to go back to a few of the ones I missed, but am really having too much fun with the current ones to get around to most of them. I will make more of an effort to do so.

My pre-class drawing was of my grandson, Matthew. I will dig out the photo and do it again. I was actually hoping to be "really good" by the time this re-do occurred, and am not sure I'm "ready" yet, but I will give it a shot. Unfortunately, two of the classes I missed are the portrait and and the children lessons.


08-29-2005, 12:39 PM
okay Troy:evil: ...let me get this straight. i'm to pick something to draw that intimidates me...right? and then try to draw it and post the results. am i getting warm?
Fuzzy Robot:p

08-29-2005, 12:42 PM
what's this about a boat???????

08-29-2005, 12:55 PM
Are we to to use the same medium for our re-do of the pre-Class assignment?

Foz, CJ did a boat for her pre-class assignment - which she, btw, redid a bit ago and the improvement was amazing!

Mary Woodul
08-29-2005, 01:16 PM
Good question Judi, I did mine in graphite and would like to try in CP. Is the OK with you maestro?

Troy Rochford
08-30-2005, 02:38 AM
Okay, I apologize if I did not make it clear in the lesson intro, but let me try to clarify things now. IF YOU DID NOT DO A PRE - CLASS ASSIGNMENT, THEN PLEASE DO ONE NOW, FOLLOWING THE GUIDELINES POSTED BY JAYD IN THAT THREAD (see above link). This isn't rocket science, folks. I just want to get a feel for where people are artistically at this moment in time.

If you DID do a pre-class assignment, then I don't care what medium, style, technique, or religious convictions you apply to the new version, so long as it is somehow relevant to what we have covered in the course of this class. In other words, to the best of my knowledge, we have not covered oil painting in this class, so I do not want to see oil paintings submitted in this thread. On the other hand, if we DID cover oils in a previous class, then you are certainly free to do just that.

The only thing that I ask is that you submit SOMETHING, preferably a re-working of your pre-class assignment. Once we get a good number of submissions in, we'll start analyzing them and go from there.



08-30-2005, 11:07 AM
I am a senior citizen who has never had any art training. Well, sort of. I did take an engineering drawing class in college, over 50 years ago. And have done various crafts. I started doing watercolor painting about 3 years ago when a young man came to the retirement home where I was living, mostly to teach painting as therapy. I wanted to be able to understand paintings better when I looked at them but got hooked on painting. He never actually gave any instruction, but did have a very good eye and criticized my paintings.
Last year I decided I couldn't paint what I wanted unless I could draw better. The Weekly Drawing Thread was just starting and I have been a faithful participant in that since. When Jay began this class, I was one of the first to sign up. I tend to be lazy, doing lots of drawings, but not working to the finish for the best I could do. But I have come to appreciate drawing for itself, not just as a foundation for painting. They say you have to do at least 1000 drawings to get a good one. I estimate I have done about 150 - a ways to go.
My main goal in painting and drawing is to record the world around me. The one lesson that gave me the most trouble was the fantasy session. Anyone remember my frumpy fairy? For my pre-class assignment, I tried to draw a picture of my then 2 month old grandson. I have done a drawing of him every month since. I just finished (?) one of him at a year old. My daughter, my hardest critic, says it looks more like him than any I have done so far. I did not use a grid on this one, a new departure for me, just tried to do it freehand, but lots of measurements from feature to feature.

Cathie Jones
08-30-2005, 11:09 AM
Connie, that new drawing is excellent! From the drawings you've show us of your grandson from time to time I almost feel like I know him! :clap:

Mary Woodul
08-30-2005, 12:26 PM
That expression is a winner, Connie!

08-30-2005, 12:32 PM
Connie :wave:
-The improvement is astounding-
150 drawings!-you are so far beyond where I am. If I have ever done 50-60 I would be suprised.
I think you have made so many milestones and it is due to your absolute dedication-I would never ever think of you as lazy!
It has been great watching you grow as fast as you have! Your new drawing is wonderful! :clap: :clap:
Frumpy fairy was one of my favorites!!! :D

08-30-2005, 01:23 PM
Connie, your drawing is excellent, and your grandson is adorable! I too feel like I know him. My pre-class drawing was of my own grandson at about 1 1/2. I hope my rework comes out nearly as well.


08-30-2005, 03:39 PM
Connie, that baby is fabulous!! it's hard to make them look like a baby. i have a tendency to draw them looking older than they really are. maybe i'll try doing a baby. you've given me an idea for my project!

08-30-2005, 04:30 PM
Here is the photo of my grandson, Matthew, and what I have so far in my drawing. I am missing the little frown that he has and I think his head is too pointy. Can anyone see anything else that is off before I start making things darker?




08-30-2005, 04:36 PM
Connie wow, I can see so much more in your work. The way your new rendering of your grandson tells it by how you rendered your strokes. No hard outlines, you see dimension by your shading and most of all what I noticed that you measured the facial features and also perspective is so believable. Your hard work shows and I am very proud of you. :)

Hiyas Michelle, we must of xposted, your grandson is a adorable also. I am not sure I see anything that needs to done.

08-30-2005, 09:19 PM
Michelle, love the grandson--could the brows be a bit lower? He is a real cutie.

Connie, you have improved tremendously--you are amazing.!!!

08-30-2005, 11:29 PM
Thanks, JayD. I lowered the brows, and the top of his head. I think I captured the little frown, but I'm not sure the mouth and nose are exactly right. I had a little trouble with his hair also.

Here is my update of Matthew at age 1 1/2.




08-30-2005, 11:55 PM
The eye closest to the viewer has a sharp slant--giving it an oriental look. You might want to correct that. I think you are getting close. NOW!!!!! Regarding the hair--you have artistic license with this kids hair--portraiturist will "correct" a look if they think it will improve the picture and satisfy their clients. You need to play a bit more with the tostled hair. I would suggest that you take a tracing of the head and transfer it onto some like paper and just play with the hair--like a hairstylist would for a mannequin. I am doing Judi's bidding right now for last weeks WDT and am having a heck of a time with the kid's hair so hang it there. You're gettin' it!

08-31-2005, 11:50 AM
Hiyas Michelle I agree with Jay your getting close. I would like to suggest on the hair to use mech pencils if you have any. It looks like your doing a good job in layering the values. Yes, look for them first, make sure to leave your highlights white. Your darks very very dark and blend your mid values as much as you can. Take a thin mech pencil and stroke in (follow the growth of the hair) your lines to show individual hairs. You will get it gf your doing a great job already. :)

08-31-2005, 12:28 PM
Michelle, I don't know if I'm allowed but nevertheless I would like to offer some hints. First of all, this is a great drawing. I honestly love it.
Please take a look at our left eye, inner corner, I think you brought the curve of the upper eyelid a bit too fast down. I think you are mislead by the shadow that falls from the brow. If you softened that curve, giving it a bit more room on top, this, IMHO, might help this eye. Our right eye. When looking at the reference picture we can see the thickness of the upper eyelid by a tiny fraction lighter than the eye. As I see on my screen it appears as if the pupil went up nearly to the brow. That should be easy to fix with some strokes of an eraser or dabs with the kneaded friend. Next, take a look at the far (our right) corner of the mouth. In the reference you see very faintly that there is an ever so faint line from the corner of the mouth down towards the chin and thereby forming the chin. In your drawing I see the cheekline go directly to the chin without that "breaking" if it's line. Now the left (our left) corner of the mouth. In the reference the line of the lower lip goes rather straight into the left corner, you have a downward slant. Again, I think, being mislead by the shading in this corner. And lastly, looking under the lower lip, the dent/shadow in the middle could be a touch more intense. If you look at the reference he has such a cute shadow right here.
Hope you'll forgive me.

08-31-2005, 12:40 PM
Thanks, Reinhard, for those suggestions. That's exactly what I am looking for. I am printing this out because going back and forth to look was making me dizzy, and by the time I found the part in the drawing that you were referring to, I forgot what you said about it. I will look at this thoroughly later this afternoon.

Thanks, JayD and Sults about the hair. I will work on that too.


Fireman's kid
08-31-2005, 04:49 PM
Troy, great idea for your first class, although I will admit to being a little tentative about redoing my pre-class assignment already. For my pc assignment I did a drawing of my daughter, Emily. For the "Drawing Children" lesson I tried to draw my other daughter, Abigail (Emily's twin sister) and had a heck of a time. Not sure I am ready to tackle children again already, but I'll get to it as soon as I can. :)

I didn't get involved with art until after college. My degree is in a technical field (chemical engineering). After moving to a new area for my second job I decided I needed to do something fun with my free time so I took a "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" class at the local community college. Took a few other basic drawing classes then stopped for a year or two when I had my girls. Started back up again by taking a watercolor workshop with my Dad. I stuck with watercolors because they were fast to set up and use and I enjoy the look of them. Came by JayD's class last October after lurking for some time in this forum wishing I could "really draw".

I wanted to take the class so I could learn to create finished drawings and also so I could improve my drawings used as the basis for the watercolor paintings.

I feel I have already learned a lot, but in learning realized how far I have to go. :rolleyes: My girls just started first grade (all day school) this week so I hope to be able to devote more time to my art now.

My ultimate goal is to be a very good artist, feel proud of my work and have people willing to pay money for my originals.

As for what I still want to learn...hmmm...everything! :D Some more specific things that come to mind are landscapes, learning how to suggest detail (like thousands of leaves) without actually having to draw each one :eek: and different ways of shading, particularly hatching and cross-hatching.

Hope that fills my "getting to know me" portion of the assignment. Probably won't get to the pre-class drawing this week since I am still finishing up my dog for the "fur" class.


Connie, the improvement in the two drawings of your grandson are incredible! I love his facial expression in the newest drawing. I am also impressed by your dedication and commitment to drawing. 150 drawings!?! :eek: WOW!

Michelle, you have some great advice from everyone else. I just want to add that I really think you got his intense look. Oh, and those cute chubby cheeks too! :)

08-31-2005, 05:06 PM
Connie, my goodness have you grown artistically in portraits. This is mind boggling (sp?). Excellent. :clap: :clap: :clap:
If you still wanted to know me, may I offer one observation? Take a look at our right side's eye. Don't you have as well the impression, that the little one's eyes aren't parallel? With our right side eye looking a bit too much towards the nose? May I suggest to give our right eye on the inside towards the nose a bit more white and then give the iris it's corresponding elliptical shape since we are looking very much from the left? Or if you wanted the far eye to stay as is, a bit less white in the outside corner of our left eye and mabe a touch on the side of the nose - but that only if the angle requires it. You will decide. If I should hush, please tell me.

08-31-2005, 05:55 PM

I made some more adjustments to the drawing of Matthew. I also put first version I did as my pre-class assignment below for comparison. I think today's version is much better. What do you think?



08-31-2005, 06:20 PM
Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!! Michelle this looks wonderful.
May I suggest to all of you, to please post your pca & current project in the Before & After thread also. This is a wonderful tribute to Basic 101 & of course JayD :)

08-31-2005, 06:21 PM
Michelle, WHAT A DIFFERENCE, that's just fantastic. I have one recommendation now. Sign it, spray it, frame it, and hang it. There is little else to do in what I can see.
One little recommendation for the next time. It is sooooooooooo much easier to give c&c when one can have both pictures on the screen at the same time. You will achieve this by using the "manage attachements" function vs. the "image uploader".

Cathie Jones
08-31-2005, 06:40 PM
HOWEVER, Rein - when you use the image uploader you can see the image as you reply without opening another window . . .

Michelle!!! Wonderful! Fantastic! Terrific! What an improvement!! :clap: 1,000 Clappie hands!! :clap: Don't do another thing - just frame it!

I should be able to post a wip tonight - finally had one of those "DUH!" moments when I remembered that I could grid the (*$)#*&$ boat and it's coming right along this time.

08-31-2005, 07:09 PM
Michelle-I came across your pre-class assignment yesterday and compared your first WIP of Matthew. I was really happy to see the improvement then-and now your last post is even more! :clap:
I think two things here that you may want to do are to pull his upper lip over a bit to our right and recheck the shape of the cavity of his mouth. Add just a layer or two to the dark/darks of his hair and shadowing around his eyes. Not a lot. You may want to add more darks to his eyes for more definition/shape and pop. His gaze in the photo is a little different-but yours still works in your drawing.
Very lovely Michelle :clap: -now how many more grandchildren are in line for their portrait? :)

08-31-2005, 07:15 PM
Well Troy I thought I would at least get this part of the assignment done today.
I have no past training in art but enjoy drawing. Surprise. I have really only had one art spurt in my life and that was 10 years ago when life had run amuck. I felt better having something to concentrate on and realized I was enjoying it very much. Things then got really busy for a single working Mom w/ 3 kids. End of spurt.
Last March I found WC during my lunch hour of browsing the net. Felt inspired looking at all the artwork here and started to draw again. My one son was also pushing me.
Then JayD started 101 :clap: :clap: and joined. The first five Classes were truly indispensable.

What do I want out of you? :evil: I want you to pick your brain of all those advanced techniques you have acquired and teach them to all of us. I don’t know if JayD passed on his planned lessons to you but I would also love a Class on backgrounds. But the big one I would want to do is to have a Class on drawing people from life….if at all possible.
Drawing people in action would be another one I think that would be good.

Goals-I guess to improve. I also would like it to be a little more effortless to get a drawing started and done to my satisfaction in a less amount of time. Time is only being considered here as it would measure skill-not that you can’t do a nice piece in a long amount of time-but to be better skilled and get it done more quickly. Like a runner. It takes him X amount of time to do 5 miles in the beginning-but after training he is able to do it in much less time. I see so many things I would like to draw-or paint-which I guess should be included as a goal here.
Practice, practice, practice.

08-31-2005, 07:16 PM
Thanks Sultry, Reinhard, CJ and Judi. I am really happy with this one.

Judi, I have eight grandchildren and expect a ninth in January. Matthew is actually 5 years old now, and I just received new photos of him and his two brothers. I guess I will have to do all nine grandchildren eventually. I have attempted to paint some of them in watercolor a few times, but haven't really been successful at getting a likeness, and I made a lot of mud. Pencil seems to work much better in that I can take my time, erase, and add strokes little by little.


08-31-2005, 07:28 PM
Sults, I didn't know there was a before and after thread. Can you tell me where to find it? I will be glad to post both drawings there.


08-31-2005, 07:34 PM
Sure Michelle, It is in the Learning Center (the last link in the Basic 101 series). Here it is :)
Attention 101 Lurkers (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258058&page=1&pp=15)

Mary Woodul
08-31-2005, 08:18 PM
Michelle your drawing of your grandson is just so natural. The opening of the mouth is so natural at that age and you captured the expression beautifully. :clap: :clap: :clap:

Hi Stacy, Connie, Judi, Cathie and Sults. :wave:

08-31-2005, 08:34 PM
Thanks, Mary. I liked his little frown. I think he was frowning at me, because he didn't really know me at that time. I hadn't seen him for about 4 months and he didn't remember me.


08-31-2005, 10:58 PM
Michelle..can you believe the difference yourself! there's no comparison! did you realize you had come so far?! wonderful job!!!!

Cathie Jones
08-31-2005, 11:37 PM
I'm afraid all this scan will show you is that I'm doing something . . . but not necessarily what. I think the outlines are too faint to see here.

The blue is a very light layer of Ocean Blue Graphitint over graphite, with water applied afterward with a waterbrush that has a very fine point.

More tomorrow night . . .


Troy Rochford
09-01-2005, 12:08 AM
Hi everyone!

I'm VERY sorry for my excessive absence. I genuinely feel horrible about that, but please understand that to a large degree I have no control over it.

I appreciate the input here and am impressed with a lot of the art. Please continue to post about what you would like to cover in the future. The more ideas we generate here, the more we have to work with in terms of future direction.

Also - I don't know and frankly don't care what problem some may have with me, but I would ask that you address such things privately with me. That said, everyone is "allowed," welcome, and encouraged to post here, and I look forward to our next class. What will our next class be? You tell me! :)

09-01-2005, 12:13 AM
Hi CJ! :wave: You drawing a blue boat? :D
Yes it is really hard to see-But I love that shade of blue-staying tuned for tomorrows post.

Hey Troy! Glad you have returned! :clap: You were missed!

Cathie Jones
09-01-2005, 12:16 AM
Hi Judi!! :wave: Yep . . . a BIG blue boat!! LOL

Hi Troy - still having computer problems?? Come back when you can.

Troy Rochford
09-01-2005, 12:19 AM
You laugh... but the original big blue boat will probably sell at auction for 5 million dollars at some point. Why not? Picasso works sell for millions. A retarded chimpanzee can top most of HIS work. ;)

Mary Woodul
09-01-2005, 06:51 AM
CJ, I have about that much done on my assignment also, so I will post it today. We're coming along. :D

Hi Judi!

Troy, so glad to see you back. I'll think of some suggestions too for the next class.

Cathie Jones
09-01-2005, 09:02 AM
You laugh... but the original big blue boat will probably sell at auction for 5 million dollars at some point. Why not? Picasso works sell for millions. A retarded chimpanzee can top most of HIS work. ;)

LOL - Troy, you're probably right. :p

Hi Mary! :wave:

09-01-2005, 09:17 AM
Troy we miss you and please please get that computer to a Dr so you can stay on longer.
CJ already I see a nice boat coming alive :)

Cathie Jones
09-01-2005, 11:50 AM
Hi Sults! :wave:

I changed my avatar to the first boat so you (and I ) can see the difference as the new one comes together. Quite a difference already!

09-01-2005, 01:26 PM
Fuzzy Robot misses you, Troy!;)

09-01-2005, 05:31 PM
Michelle - this is a priceless picture. The help Reinhard gives, along with others, particularly Judi, help so much I can't begin to say. We can practice forever, but if no one take the time to show us where we are wrong, we will just practice mistakes. I have done the eye over on mine, am showing the enlarged version of the eye, slightly raised to be parallel to the left eye, and the photo of that eye.

09-01-2005, 05:47 PM
Thanks, Connie! I'm really happy with it.

Your corrected eye looks good to me, but then that's one of the places where I ran into trouble, the eyes. It's so hard to see what's going on in the photos because the eyes are so small, and blowing it up sometimes makes them come out fuzzy. But then, I also had trouble with hair, nose and mouth too. It's amazing what a difference a little tiny correction can make, which I would never have known to do without suggestions from this class.

Matthew's Mom thought my drawing was great, and hey, who else would be a better judge. :) Now I have to find time to draw the rest of them.


09-01-2005, 07:36 PM
Well. I have been away for a few weeks and look what happened!!! The immates are running the place!!:D

I will do teh first half of the assignment as I have too many deadlines going right now to go back and work on re-doing my PCA. I am a few classes behind having just posted my efforts at glass ( lesson 23) a few minutes ago. Also for one of my deadlines I need fur so I will probably do that next, then finish the 2 pieces I have commited to and then finish this lesson... followed by the water lesson ... and then catchup on the new stuff.

I am semi-retired. I susbstitute teach in middle school. I am a retired submarine sailor as well as a retired defense contractor. I have been interested in art most of my adult life. My final two choices for an undergraduate major were computer science and fine arts. With a family to feed I opted for computer science, but maintained my interest in art. I made several abortive attempts to study art. In the late 70's I studied pastels for a yeear with an artist in Hawaii, but life got in the way. Again in the mid 80's I took a couple of classes at a local Community College and also at the local art museum, but again life got in the way, When I retired in 2001, we moved to Florida and I enrolled in the local art guild and began taking classes. After Hurricane Charlie I didn't draw for several months, but then decided I wanted to draw well enough to be a professional artist. About that time (Dec 04) I found 101 and the rest is history.

My biggest short coming is that I have a difficult time drawing from life and getting the proportions and perspective right. I think those areas and any info on techniques woudl be terrific additions to 101...at least for me.:D


Cathie Jones
09-01-2005, 08:42 PM
Hi Joe! Welcome back . . . we've missed you! And your marbles and grapes/crystal are terrific.

Anita Murphy
09-01-2005, 08:48 PM
I am completely stumped by this. I went back over the early drawings of this year and tried to redo a couple of them - total disaster. I think its cos I really hate doing things over. SO forgive me, I'm going to do something new.
Meanwhile I too will do the first bit of this class........

Stay at home mother for many years, odd jobs from cleaning to running my own catering business, interior design, 3 years wearing the green skin, and finally ending up in art school at 33.

Mostly painting, acrylics and oils, almost entirely landscapes. After getting my BA in Fine Art I gave up art - conceptual art defeated me entirely. When people got more marks for emptying their vacuum cleaner bags (literally) and calling it art than those who painted wonderful pictures it all seemed a little ridiculous. Did my masters in Information Systems (nothing like a change!) and taught software engineering, programming and web design at a university in England before being swept off my feet by a Yank in Rome.

This year after a 5 year break from art I decided that the time had come to try again as I appear to now be unemployable :D. I started painting, bright colours, naivish table settings. Found WC in March this year, and hovered around the acrylic forum, occaisionally lurking in D&S. Did a few of the classes and then started trying out portraits spurred by a sudden desire to paint my son. My tendency was always towards monochrome, from B&W photography to painting, so drawing has been like coming home.

What do I want to achieve. Something more than photorealism. I don't want to just reproduce photographs. But I do feel that being able to draw is like playing scales in music. Once you know the basics, you can do anything.

Cathie Jones
09-01-2005, 09:14 PM
Anita, I absolutely know how you feel. I'm hating this boat - it's been done twice before and I don't want to do it again. Granted, I did it badly both times before, but I'd sure rather be doing something fun. I will carry on, though . . .:rolleyes:

Mary Woodul
09-01-2005, 11:44 PM
Joe, how nice to see you around again. This is a CP of my preliminary assignment that was in graphite. The CP only has three layers and I think I have to darken it and layer more.

Mary Woodul
09-01-2005, 11:48 PM
I see that the CP is not straight so I will staighten it and maybe try the graphite version, better.

09-02-2005, 12:33 AM
Mary that is slick. I would suggest adding in that beautiful table--the two seem to go toghether. Wow what an improvement!

Mary Woodul
09-02-2005, 07:13 AM
Thank you JayD, will try also to put in some more layers and do the graphite version as well.

09-02-2005, 07:21 AM
OMG Mary~
You have not only captured the color values but the shine too!
It looks so beautiful....Do not forget to put this in the before & after thread gf when you complete the graphite too. Wow I see such rendered molded value with colors. You certainly found your medium, cp likes you.

09-02-2005, 07:33 AM
If nothing else happens, your success in cp is worth all the time of this class, Mary. You certainly have mastered that is a hurry. The vase is splendid.

09-02-2005, 08:17 AM
Mary, you had the shapes down pretty well in your original drawing, but WOW! You have done a great job with the colored pencil version. You have nailed those beautiful colors.


Cathie Jones
09-02-2005, 08:55 AM
Mary, it's beautiful! And if you think it needs more layers - I can't wait to see what happens!

Mary Woodul
09-02-2005, 11:11 AM
Thank you Sults, Connie, Michelle and CJ, your words are making me love CP.
Sults I will put in a graphite version in the before and after thread, thanks.

Anita Murphy
09-02-2005, 12:27 PM
Mary - you are not only going to be the Queen of glass but also the Queen of CP!!!

Well no-one can say I didn't try. This is me so far. I think its a the new version is a closer likeness but I don't think my drawing has improved at all.
First is the original drawing

09-02-2005, 12:40 PM
Mary! :wave: Lovely-I think you do need more layers but it is really becoming a stunning piece! :clap: :clap: Night and day improvement. Way to go Queenie! :D

Anita! :wave:
Wow another wonderful improvement-thoght I have to say the first one is excellent is well. Your drawing now defines better the shape of your face and those awesome cheekbones and jaw!
:clap: :clap:

Ty Connie, that was nice to say. :)

Hi all! :wave:

09-02-2005, 12:44 PM
Anita your drawing has improved leaps and bounds and the two drawings prove it--sho shush you!!!! NOW, a piece of advice--while it is a neat magic trick to be able to produce something exactly like a xerox machine DO NOT let that overwhelm your artistic intent--here is the funny thing about a portait--it is a picture of the subject and it is a picture of the artist--if I do a portrait of you so that it is picture perfect--then I have covered up successly my artistic voice. I really love your second attemp--while both are achieved likenesses, the second version shows an artistic competence that was not there before. Have you improved--you bet you have!

09-02-2005, 01:31 PM
Anita, wow, I like how you did your eyes on the second one too. I do see more confident strokes rendering this very Beautiful Girl you are. :)

Mary Woodul
09-02-2005, 01:52 PM
Thank you Judi! :wave:

Anita, I see a great difference, in spite of the other one being very good. You have excellent features to draw plus a very pretty face. :clap: :clap: :clap:

09-02-2005, 02:41 PM
The difference I see is that your second self portrait is more alive, and it shows personality in the facial expression. I think that's a significant improvement.


09-02-2005, 03:12 PM
By the way anita--I meant artistic CONFIDENCE--NOT competence--please excuse the rhetorical do-si-do!

Anita Murphy
09-02-2005, 03:20 PM
Thank you everyone *blush* for the personal compliments as well as the artistic ones.

JayD - I know what you mean about the artistic voice - I just had this discussion with Troy, over the merits of photorealism if it has none of the artist in it.

Funnily enough when I drew the first version I could see myself, both my sisters (with whom I have never felt I shared any likeness!) and my mother in it but not in the second version. Hmmmmmmmm! :confused:

09-02-2005, 03:30 PM
Your eye is becoming more discrimatory--you are beginning to sort out the mish mash.

Anita Murphy
09-02-2005, 03:34 PM
LOL - I love the idea of my family being mish-mash!!!!!!!!!!!

Cathie Jones
09-02-2005, 07:34 PM
Here's the little blue boat. If I had it to do over and I don't think I will I don't think I'd use graphitints - CP would have been much better.

Graphitint is harder to control than watercolor. Funny thing, though - some of the area that had graphite under the color was too dark, so I tried erasing. The graphite came out from under the graphitint easily. Graphitint doesn't dry like watercolor - it smears if you get it wet again.

I'm happy with the shape of the boat, which was the point of this exercise. The rest I'm not so happy with.

First boat first, second boat second, then this one.
Edit: and the ref . . .

Anita Murphy
09-02-2005, 07:42 PM
CJ - The difference between the three is amazing. You went from having a twist in the middle to a very presentable flat boat and the last is super. What is really noticeable is that the shadow under the prow of the boat in the first picture looked like a board coming straight down into the boat. In the second it looks like an extension to the prow but in the last you have the depth and the shape of the space under the prow. The only thing would be maybe to deepen the shadow under the boat. I really like the pools of water in the sand.
Thank you for giving us tips on the graphitints.

09-02-2005, 07:51 PM
Mary - That vase is beautiful.:clap: Hope you plan more layers and the table as JayD suggested!!

Anita - I agree with all of the accolades your SP recieved. Three things stood out to me in the second one. 1. The eyes. 2. The skin. It is softer and more real looking. 3. Personality. While the first is a very good looking drawing, the second is a portrait....if that makes sense.

CJ - Love the blue boat!! Definitely candidate for Sultry's before and after collection. Question: What are/is Graphitint?????


Cathie Jones
09-02-2005, 08:14 PM
Anita, your self-portrait is fabulous. As Joe said, there's definitely personality in the second one.

Thank you, Anita and Joe, for the comments on the boat. I'm not entirely pleased with it, but also don't want to do it again. I may rethink that if this lesson is going for two weeks. :rolleyes:

Joe, Graphitints are made by Derwent. They're water soluble, tinted graphite. Check the CP forum - a couple of people there are using them. Also there's a chart of the first 12 colors that were released in this week's weekly drawing thread. They're hard to find in the US now, but coming in slowly.

09-02-2005, 09:32 PM
CJ, you amaze me each time you do this boat gf! I love how you did the color value shading on this. You have the shadows correctly measured and I see what Anita is saying about the one shadow. I do think you need to darken the shaded areas and that may be all you need for you to be pleased with it.
If you were to take your cp boat right now and greyscale it, you will see it needs more dark to give it more of a punch for contrast. Your rendering is perfect just push your darker values.

Mary Woodul
09-02-2005, 10:19 PM
CJ, I love your blue boat. You gave the whole drawing a beautiful peaceful atmosphere.

I want to upload the last version of the CP, but there seems to be a problem with the images. I just get x's. I don't know if anyones else is having this problem?

09-02-2005, 10:24 PM
Hi CJ! :wave: The boat was a great choice for your pre-class assignment-the improvement was great when you had done 'lil blue boat II" but "lil blue boat III" shows really how far you have come. I see too what Anita is saying about the shadows-that's progress baby! :D :clap:
Then Sults too with the darks-I think that is the hardest thing to do. We can look at the ref and put them in but I always seem to have to go back a half a dozen times to add more! :eek:
Haven't these classes been invaluable to all of us? :clap: :clap: :clap:

Cathie Jones
09-02-2005, 10:57 PM
Judi, these classes may be one of the best things that have ever happened to me! I've always wanted to know how to draw, and in a small way, I now do. There's still lots of room for improvement, so I hope Basic 101 goes on for a very long time!!

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Mary Woodul
09-02-2005, 11:30 PM
Hi Judi and CJ. These classes are definitely one the best things that have happened to me. After thinking of art a little abstractly and being tutored by someone that thinks a realist is out of style, I have found a whole new world with this 101 class.

Here is the last version of the CP with the table as you suggested, JayD.


Cathie Jones
09-03-2005, 08:12 AM
It's beautiful, Mary. I like the light shining through on the shadow, too!:clap:

09-03-2005, 08:52 AM
CJ, I can see why you don't want to do the boat anymore, but you don't have to. You nailed it this time! It's terrific! I know you aren't totally happy with it, but that's the fault of the new pencils you were experimenting with.

I agree, this class is one of the best things that happened to me also.


Anita Murphy
09-03-2005, 09:00 AM
Mary - your vase is so glassy! Are you using Prismacolors? I love what you are achieving here! You could get lost in those colours!

Thank you CJ and Joe for the comments on my portrait. My husband even said it was a huge improvement!

09-03-2005, 09:12 AM
Wow Mary, I love the vase but do you know what stands out to me? The shadow of it on the table, it is almost mirror like how you have the glass shining with light. You have such a way with cp gf. You better not just post a graphite but this one too in the B4 & After.

Hiyas Anita, I expect to see your sps in there, CJ your blue boats, Connie your grandson renderings & everyone else who is in this class. Michelle posted her grandson renderings and I am so happy she did. :) Guess what we have a new wc member asking about the classes. :)

Anita Murphy
09-03-2005, 09:15 AM
Hey Sults - I just x-posted with you in the lurker thread!!! Good to see more people joining the class. I have to say that you guys make my days! I check this thread first thing every morning with my first cup of tea!! Don't know what I would do without WC now!

09-03-2005, 09:17 AM
Well Anita all I can say is that you guys are my family and I wub you all. *I also have to check in every day, the days I can't I get bad withdrawls lol.

Anita Murphy
09-03-2005, 09:22 AM
Sults - the reason I am invisible so no-one knows that I am around is because I am ashamed to say that I am here ALL the time!!!!!! :o How sad is that! I really do need to get a life.

Mary Woodul
09-03-2005, 09:35 AM
Joe, I'm sorry i didn't thank you for your commente and I did add some layers to the vase, maybe not enough.

Thank you CJ and I agree with Michelle that your boat is perfect like it is. The colors you chose, to me give the feel of what you would feel and see on a sunny day at the ocean.

Yes Anita, they are prismas over on canson. I did have fun with this one. Anita don't feel bad about being here all the time. I used to be out all of the time and lately I don't want to leave my house, but it has been excellent therapy. My husband and sons get mad at me for not going out more, but I have no one to talk about art with, in this city.

Thank you Sults. I'm, working on my graphite now and I will post both of them in your thread.

BTW, about checking here before anything else. I do the same, I turn it on and go put the coffe on, then come right back to it before I go to the other things in my life.

Oh, I forgot to tell you all, that vase was one of our wedding presents, long ago!!!

09-03-2005, 10:02 AM
Morning Anita ! :wave:
"My name is Judi and I am a WC 101 addict. I have WC with my morning coffee, lunch, evening and it is my my bedtime reading.
My light is on most of the evening-I am not at the computer contantly-but I check back in often cause I don't want to miss anything!! ":D :eek:

Mary :wave: -that is beautiful!!! :clap: :clap: Maybe add more layers to show the woodgrain that is not washed out by the lighting on our left side of the table and some more on the vase-layering seems to never end... :eek:

09-03-2005, 01:19 PM
Anita - I'm always late, so everyone has already said it, your first sp was good, the second has more life, better details and more personality. And you are getting positive comments from your husband. That is progress in itself.
Mary - the light in those colors is spectacular, the table does help a lot.
CJ - When you get to heaven, St. Peter is going to say, "More Darks!" Otherwise; you have shown so much improvement that I know you are better prepared to paint. Don't forget to do that sometimes, you won't forget how.
Sults - I did post one update of my grandson in your thread, not sure this is much better than that one.

Cathie Jones
09-03-2005, 02:27 PM
Connie, you're so right . . . but I intend to ask St. Peter just how dark he wants white to be!! LOL Think he'll let me stay anyway??:evil:

Edit: SURPRISE! Another version of the li'l blue boat in graphite. This is the one I'll post in the lurker thread . . . after C&C.

09-03-2005, 04:42 PM
Wow CJ, I love how you take the viewer's eyes for a ride on your boat. I feel as if I can feel the side of the boat. The way you have done your contour shading it brings all the around to the front of it. I see depth as if it is large enough for my legs to fit inside. VERY BEAUTIFUL ARTIST WORK gf Bravismo!
edited to add...Oh & CJ, The cp boat better be posted in the thread too.

Cathie Jones
09-03-2005, 06:04 PM
Yes ma'am, Ms. Sultry . . . right away!!! :D Thank you for looking at my li'l blue boat. In the ref it's sitting a little bit sideways, toward the viewer, like the water just washed it up that way, so that's why you can see inside it - and also why it's been so hard to draw.

09-04-2005, 09:17 AM
CJ-So you decided to do another lil boat afterall- :D
I am with Sults here as you have given it much more depth adding the darks inside the boat.
:clap: :clap:

Hi Sults, Connie, Mary, Anita and Michelle! :wave:

Hope everybody has a great and safe holiday!

Cathie Jones
09-04-2005, 10:19 AM
Thank you, Judi. Somehow, without even being here, JayD's voice was here telling me I could do better . . . . . . (how does he do that????).

Do we know if this class is going another week? :confused:

09-04-2005, 11:34 AM
Because, Cathie--I am always watching the classes and you guys are walking steady and making me proud--what more could a person ask for.

Anita Murphy
09-04-2005, 12:46 PM
I've been tweaking this. Trying to get my head round hair, which seems to be totally impossible. :confused: (Maybe we could have a hair class?????) If anyone thinks anything else need tweaking ............... :D

Cathie Jones
09-04-2005, 02:00 PM
Anita, I don't know about hair, either, but it looks great to me!! :clap:

09-04-2005, 02:16 PM
i've pretty much been lurking on this thread but the improvements i see in everyone's work are just amazing!! you all have worked VERY hard to improve you skills and it's obviously paid off! Mary, your vase couldn't be better and CJ, the infamous blue boat is certainly no longer infamous...you've really nailed it!!! in CP and graphite! i'm really impressed!!!

Cathie Jones
09-04-2005, 03:45 PM
Thanks, Billie. I'm sitting here looking at the graphite boat - and can see a really bad mistake in perspective. That's what I'll improve next time we go through this before-and-after drill!

09-04-2005, 04:34 PM
Hi Troy and Everyone :wave:
I started this class mainly because I wanted to be able to draw faces better, particularly when they are at angles, but then also recognised how little I knew about the basics of drawing. I have been drawing infrequently and sporadically for a long time, but only in the last few years begun to take some adult ed classes (watercolour and life). I told myself I've been wanting to do it all my life and needed to break free from being such a workaholic and get to do some art now instead of waiting till I retire (only a few years off). I get stuck everytime it comes to faces, and also still struggle with sketching hands and feet quickly.

My posts are my pre-class drawing, where the face is clearly skew. Then I did the same face in lines for Class 2 and it came out a bit better (2nd post). Post 3 is a sketch I did recently. I still think I need a lot of practice and improvement. I'd like to see more classes on this. WC has also taught me to push the blacks and I think that has made a big difference (probably need to do it even more)

Some other things I'd like to see in lessons: Landscape, trees, flowers, etc.
Still Life. People in action. Circulism


Mary Woodul
09-04-2005, 08:26 PM
CJ, your graphite boat is beautiful and if it has a problem with perspective I can't see it.

Anita, don't you dare touch that drawing anymore!

Ren, very nice expressions on your portraits.

This is my graphite version but slightly moved from the other angel and I took the reference with a flash because it was at night and that's why so many relections. I have no idea about backgrounds. I would love to have a class on backgrounds.

Thank you Billie, and Hi everyone! :wave: Do you all still have a day off tomorrow?


Cathie Jones
09-04-2005, 08:51 PM
Ren, I can see a big difference in your drawing from the first face to the third - everything seems to be more in proportion now. :clap:

Mary! Beautiful vase - in color and in graphite. I love the reflections. :clap: And I'm not gonna tell you where the boat is off, but when you see it next time you'll recognize the difference!

Yes, most of us Americanos have tomorrow off - other than service workers, I guess. :D

09-04-2005, 08:54 PM
Hi Ren! :wave: I remember the first post well. I see a lot of improvement on your abitlity to place the facial features! Great ! :clap:

Hi Mary! :wave: Nice work-love the reflections! :clap: :clap:

Mary---I am off tomorrow! :clap: :clap: Don't have so set an alarm! :D

I assume this class will be two weeks as they all have been lately? I hope so-lol-I am steadily backing up! :(

Anita Murphy
09-04-2005, 09:11 PM
Mary - WOW the graphite version is stunning!

09-05-2005, 04:02 AM
Thanks for your comments everyone
Anita, Mary those are quite stunning!
Could we have more info on how to work with Graphite in one of these classes?

CJ your boat is looking better and better every time - I know how hard they are to do!


Mary Woodul
09-05-2005, 07:13 AM
Goodmorning, everyone! For those of you that are sleeping in and have a holiday, enjoy it!!! :envy:

Thank you CJ, Judi; Anita and Ren for your comments on my vase.

Ren, I think it is is in the 101-1 or 101-2 where there is quite a bit of information about graphite but also in the Learning Center, you will find plenty of information. Click on Murray's (artdude's) signature line to the Learning Center.

09-05-2005, 07:38 AM
Mary, I just went back and re-examined your glass--have you done any burnishing on this piece?

Anita, dont be ashamed--I find myself here more then I realize--the place has become a self conscious act.

09-05-2005, 07:41 AM
Mary, I promised you guys a class on backgrounds before I took off---I am sure that troy will be happy to provide a class when he gets back.

Mary Woodul
09-05-2005, 10:52 AM
Thank you JayD! No I haven't burnished it. Should I keep on layering and burnish? The wood work needs more work also, I think.

JayD, and I think we are all very happy to see you around here.

09-05-2005, 12:41 PM
. I have no idea about backgrounds. I would love to have a class on backgrounds.

i agree with Mary. some of us need a class in backgrounds....badly! namely ME!

09-05-2005, 12:42 PM
Ren, the difference between image 1 and 2 is like night and day! you've improved in leaps and bounds!

09-05-2005, 02:18 PM
Mary -WOW!!! I thought the CP version was really good, but then you posted the graphite version...STUNNING!!!!!!!

CJ - I thought of you Saturday at breakfast. We go to a little coffee shop that only serves breakfast and lunch and they have watercolor prints hanging on the wall by each booth. They are all by the same artist, who will remain nameless. The one by our table had a small boat run up on the beach....it could not hold a candle to your cp "little blue boat". The perspective and proportion were off and the shadows in the picture were inconsistent. (Remember these were commercially published!!!!) I kept thinking, CJ's would look a whole lot better!


Cathie Jones
09-05-2005, 02:34 PM
Aw, that's so sweet Joe! I consider you to be one of the better artists here, so that's quite a compliment. I compare outside art to our classmates' work, too. It's funny what some people will hang on their walls, isn't it?

09-05-2005, 02:58 PM
Sorry I haven't had a chance to participate in this thread, but outside obligations have comsumed most of the last three weeks and appear to for the next two. Anyway, i have no previous inital images for the first lessons because I jpined at lesson 23 I believe. Have nopt been able to even go back and do those. I have a 3/4 completed drawing of my old dog Cody that I haven't touched in the last five days.

I have lurked briefly but no comments, but I have seen a great boat by Cj, and a neat vase by Mary, and Anita, your self portrait is outstanding, all three version I've seen (I think there three different versions or stages anyway. I can't seem to sort out the last five or six pages of this thread.


09-05-2005, 04:06 PM
yeah, mary but be very selective about where you burnish--you want to select reflective areas and such. Use your judgement. If you get a chance with any upcoming cp projects--try this: do the ENTIRE drawing in grays (using color pencils--when you are finished--BURNISH the entire image--THEN lay your colors over it and watch what happens.

Mary Woodul
09-05-2005, 05:13 PM
Great JayD, I haven't started the WDT, although that is a complicated drawing but I will try it anyway with the greys first. You always have great ideas to try!!! ;)

Thank you Joe,! BTW, I smiled at what you said to CJ, I know hers is much better, but also at the thought of you looking around at artwork, the way I do, anytime I go in anyplace that has paintings on the walls.

Chuck, we have missed you. Glad your back and I am on my way to the forum to see your dog.

09-06-2005, 10:56 AM
Anita, I like your sp you did wonderful on it. Love the expression you have and the way you made your skin texture so smooth. I really think you did well with the hair too.

Hiyas Ren, I see considerably improvement also in your pca & your current ones. Please try another using the same materials you used for the cat in class 25, you seem to render the light very well. I hope you post all of this in the B4 & After thread too.

Mary, wow I do like the way you render glass. You have the highlights and midtone done so well in the reflection of it. I really think something happend after you started to use cp. Your getting more contrast in your graphite. good job gf. :)

09-06-2005, 05:53 PM
Lagging behind as usual... :rolleyes:
This is stage one of my pre-class drawing and posting the original pc drawing from last year. Haven't blended yet.
See CJ-I'm working. :D
Hi Sults-sure been quiet here today huh?

Mary Woodul
09-06-2005, 06:15 PM
Hi Judi! I love the way it is looking. There is such an angelic sweetness to it.

Cathie Jones
09-06-2005, 06:24 PM
Judi, what you're doing with this reminds me of Anita's sp. You had a picture of a little girl before - now she has personality!! Way to go, GF!!!

Anita Murphy
09-06-2005, 06:44 PM
Such sorrowful eyes! Judi this is looking really great! I think your pre-class drawing was pretty good too! The hair is wonderful!

09-06-2005, 06:57 PM
TY Mary, CJ and Anita! :)
I have been working on that CJ-her eyes should not be sorrowful-had too much graphite above the eyes. :eek:
Actually it needs to be thoughtful and sweet.
That is how the ref is-I'll post the ref w/ the next stage.
I haven't caught her smile yet.

09-06-2005, 09:18 PM
Ooooo Judi I loved the first one but this one has so much going for her (and here it is only the first stage). I think what I like is the eyes have that sparkle in them even though they do look sad. Also, that you have the starting of real looking skin.

Fireman's kid
09-06-2005, 10:02 PM
Hi gang! I was away for the holiday weekend so I missed lots and lots of posts. Just caught up on reading. Everyone is doing great. Gotta go my laptop battery is ready to quit on me. :rolleyes:

09-07-2005, 07:37 AM
Judi, your little girl is beautiful! Her features are so sweet. Can't wait to see what you do next.


09-07-2005, 10:10 AM
Ok, since Judi posted I guess I should too, show I am working (so CJ does not scold me). As I said before I did my pca from imagination & since my sister thought I was doing a sp, I decided to try and do my sp again from class 18 (which I never completed). So here is my pca & my current wip. Hope you guys see a improvement.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Sep-2005/29757-head_portion__shading.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Sep-2005/29757-sp3.jpg

Mary Woodul
09-07-2005, 10:52 AM
Hi Sults! There is definitely and improvement. The shading on your face is so smooth. The redering of your hair, which doesn't surprise me because you have always been good with that. It's coming along very nicely.

09-07-2005, 11:48 AM
Sults--amazing work--you seem to be more confident with you values and such. Come see the softer side of Sults!!!

Judi--this reminds me of one of those masters sketch studies that you see in the art books. A vast improvement over the first one--a honed talent.

Anita Murphy
09-07-2005, 11:55 AM
Sults - huge improvement. And a completely different style too. I really like the loose style of your first picture. The second shows a polish that was not there before, an understanding of shapes and contours. The way you are doing the hair in the second picture is super!

Cathie Jones
09-07-2005, 12:14 PM
Scolding? Me???? Never!!!! :evil:

Good to see everyone is working, though . . .

Love the shading, Sults. I'm really looking forward to seeing this one finished - I bet it'll be a keeper!! :clap:

09-07-2005, 12:24 PM
Sults, that second drawing is wonderful! Vastly different in style and polish. Great work. Judi, your daughter is excellent. It uis so interesting to see how much every one has grown since the first lesson.. I only wish i had joined when this thread was started.

09-07-2005, 12:32 PM
Hi and Ty all. :wave:

JayD-Glad it looks like a masters study as it is my second attempt at La Priere (translated: The prayer) By William Bouguereau-my favorite artist.

Sults-fabulous improvement! Though I love the sweetness of your pca!

09-07-2005, 07:04 PM
Hi all.I been missing ya's. :wave:
So sorry I haven't been around much latley.Hope to be back in the groove soon.Keep up the ood work. :clap: :wave:

09-07-2005, 07:12 PM
Hi Bon! :wave: :wave:

It's great to see ya!

09-07-2005, 07:21 PM
Bon! i was just thinking about you this afternoon and wondering where you've been. glad to see you back!:)

09-07-2005, 08:05 PM
Hiyas Bon, hope you & yours are doing much better.
Ty Mary, Jay, CJ, Chuck & Judi for the nice compliments I really appreciated it.

09-08-2005, 04:30 AM
Sults, your drawing is lovely!


09-08-2005, 07:20 AM
Ty Ren :), I worked on it some more and I am sorry I forgot to say what I am using and how I am doing this.
11x14 Bristol Vellum & mostly used Derwent pencils Bs (Ty Judi for my Birthday Gifts :)). I Also used my mech 0.5 pencil for the detail work.

I am not really applying the strokes till after I have applied the shading with a chamois that has graphite on it. Once I smudge my value shadows I go over it with a clean chamois. I then look for highlights and pull them with a kneaded eraser. Once again I go over with a clean chamois to blend hard lines. I go over again in the shadows with a graphite chamois. I do the whole process over again. I then look for places to do light strokes with the mech 0.5 pencil and blend them. This has helped me to get more values.
My goal is to stop at the layer that has my darkest shadows as dark as the pupils. So as you can see, I have quite a few layers to go. :)


09-08-2005, 12:30 PM
Hey Sults! :wave:
YW :)
Oh great Queen of Hair-lol-how many crowns do you wear? :D Looks great. :clap: Thanks for sharing your process with us!
Two things I noticed in looking at the ref, is the lower lid of the eye on our right needs to be lifted a tad-to give that famous "Sultry" look! :cat: And the nostril is a bit small-which throws off the location of the cupids bow of your upper lip.

09-08-2005, 01:20 PM
Hey All, :wave:
Just heard from Troy. He wants you to know he was out of town due to the hurricane. He is not yet back in town but hopes to be tonight and expects to be back in Class then. :)

09-08-2005, 02:58 PM
Ty Judi, thank you for letting us know about Troy, was wondering how he was. Glad he will be back tonight. :)
Also, ty for the needed C&C, I will fix those two things (I still am not sure of what the cupid bow is, it the 2 pts or the middle dip, or the whole thing?). I am having a time with these eyes I have changed the left one since I posted. lol
Oh, yeah your poet and you do know it. lol

Mary Woodul
09-08-2005, 03:02 PM
Thank you Judi, for letting us know about Troy. I'm so glad he is OK.

Sults, that is looking very good and with Judi's C&C's, you can feel it will be a great one.

09-08-2005, 09:53 PM
Hi Mary & Sults! :wave:
I am glad all is well to.

Posting Stage 2-Got tired of doing hair and worked on her lower half yesterday. Fell asleep this evening and didn't get anything done. :(
I am working on thinning her face too-had it much too wide. There is more to do there as well.
C & C please.

Anita Murphy
09-08-2005, 10:40 PM
Judi - now that you posted the reference it all comes flooding back to me. Mikey (mainly posts on Open Critique forum) has a thing about Bougereau and has done this piece as an oil. Her face looks fine to me, I think it is just down to deeper shadows now to really pull this together.
:clap: :clap: :clap: You have been doing such amazing work recently. :clap: :clap:

09-08-2005, 10:59 PM
Thanks Anita-
In agreement on the darks.
I'll have to check out Mikey's work.

09-09-2005, 06:54 AM
Judi you are doing such a wonderful job, I see your style in this and it has given this piece a new light (more sweeter and delicate then the ref pic). I think when you get all the layers you need to for the darks and your wanted contrast you will have such a masterpiece gf. :)
One I think even Bougereau would be so proud of if he was still around.

Mary Woodul
09-09-2005, 07:00 AM
Hi everyone! :wave:

Sults, you are doing so well on your sp. That polished look is awesome.

Judi, The expression is very good now with a hint of a smile and very and a shy sweet. It is looking verygood!

09-09-2005, 12:47 PM
are you going to put in the black background? It would really push the subject forward.

09-09-2005, 01:49 PM
Judi, i just stopped in for a looksee and saw your portrait. OMG!!! this is great!!! IMHO, do the dark BG. it's crucial to this piece, i think.

Cathie Jones
09-09-2005, 04:40 PM
Judi, I agree with JayD and Foz. The light on her shoulder is very important to this piece and it won't show up enough until there's a dark background.

09-09-2005, 06:25 PM
Hi All :wave:
Thanks. Yes the black bg like the ref :D last though-that would be way too much graphite on the drawing while still working on her. I would be sure to make a smeary mess of it.

09-09-2005, 11:36 PM
ok....one of the things that intimidates me is rendering people. that IS one of the requirements of Basic 101...Class 1, isn't it? i've tried to do a portrait of my Dad. just started it tonite so it's still sketchy. i'm going to post it and hope for lots of C&C. thanks guys!!!

1st-my reference
2nd-my sketch

Mary Woodul
09-10-2005, 12:20 AM
Awe, Billie, your dad has such a sweet face. I think you doing well with it the only thing is, that the position of his head is facing more toward the viewer in your rendition, but I think that is important only if your going for photographic realism. I like it very much Billie.

09-10-2005, 08:00 AM
Mary - Love the updated version of your sweet child. I do wonder if you have enough hair on top of the head? It looks a little flat to me, but that might be the angle of the photo.

09-10-2005, 09:34 AM
Everyones self stories are very interesting and heart warming.Love how far we have all come and hope you all reach what you are going for.
Well I always could draw.But didn't do it much or really get back into it till a few years ago.As a youth I was put down and felt asshamed at what I would draw.So I just kept it inside all these years.I was always told I shouldn't draw these sexest drawings.I didn't think they was?I just drew what I felt like and for some reason I love drawing the female form in strange exotic ways and thats not all I love to draw though.As you all know.
I wanted to be able to learn what was missing in my drawings.Like shades,making details stand out.Here I learned 80% of what I was wanting to improve.
I think people like us all gathering at 1 site and searching and learning from one another is the best lesson i've ever had the pleasure of being a part of.

09-10-2005, 11:02 AM
Morning all :wave:

Hi Bon!

Hi Connie-you are correct-I agree the hair on the top of the head needs to be more-I will recheck the measurements and see if it needs to be added on top or brought down her forehead a bit. Thanks!

Hi Foz
Great start on your Dad! His is so adorable-that may be odd to say but he reminds me a lot of my Dad-who was my teddy bear. :)
I think you have have drawn his face a tad more forward than the ref like Mary said. Eyes need to be squinted a bit more for those smiling eyes and they angle down going from left to right of the drawing and recheck the shapes. The nostril on our left needs to be more narrow (up-down measurement) and the lower 'line' of that nostril section needs to be at less of an angle. His nose shape needs to indicate less of a forward view. The bottom of his nose goes down a bit too much towards his upper lip. I think the shadowing needs revisited on his jowl on our right and it is a bit too rounded out there. His mouth needs that slight angle like the eyes.

09-10-2005, 12:57 PM
thanks Mary! no...i really wasn't going for anything, especially photorealism. i just started drawing from this photo i have of him and he started to appear. i love this pic. it was taken several years ago in front of the cottage of a family he worked for for over 60 years. he was their boat captain on their yacht and looked after the cottage when they were gone. he oversaw 5 generations of this family. the last additions were born on his birthday...twin girls, Payton and Kennedy, the year before he died.

09-10-2005, 01:00 PM
thanks Judi! i worked on this more last night. i wish i had done more pre-drawing prep to get the angle of his head right but i started out just scribbling and it took off from there. this will be my before portrait of him. i'll get it down with this one with the help of everyone on D&S and then do a proper portrait on good paper and with more care.

09-10-2005, 02:33 PM
Billie, I must say I admire you for rendering your father (as I admired Judi, when she did hers) I tried to sketch my father, but even a fast sketch had me in tears. I want to some day do him and not let my tears get in my way. I do think Judi has given you great C&C with your dad.
Do you know what I notice, I think you drew your dad's eyes from memory, I see such loving and kind yes looking back at me. You can see how much he means to you. Looking forward to your updates on this.

Well, I am not sure about my sp because I am drawing as the photo was. Bad photo for compositon (My top of my head is cut off and so it is also in the drawing, I am trying to render it as if I am coming out the dark, to save the compostion some how). I am also getting frustrated on getting darks. Bare with me, if this does not look right, I am learning as I go.


09-10-2005, 02:53 PM
Hi Sults! :wave:

Wow-your skin tones are look great and smooth!!! :clap: :clap:

Mary Woodul
09-10-2005, 03:00 PM
Sults I don't think the composition matters, you are putting such good lights and smoothness to your face, that, that is your focal point. Your doing a remarkable job on this. :clap: :clap: :clap:

Mary Woodul
09-10-2005, 03:01 PM
Billie, what a wonderful man your dad sounds like and you can tell it in his picture. You will have to put that sweetness in the drawing.

09-10-2005, 03:04 PM
ty Judi & Mary, I needed the pep talk, Question, does it look like I added more darks yet? or am I still in the same value? I have added so many more layers from last post at least 5. and it just looks so mid tone to me. I am wondering if I need to not rub so hard with the chamois (so the darks will not rub off).

Mary Woodul
09-10-2005, 03:19 PM
I went back yo check and yes definitely but what shows is are the highlights in a very natural way. I hadn't even noticed that that was what you had done to it. It just sparkled to me. It is really very good, Sults.

09-10-2005, 03:22 PM
Ty Mary , now if I only could get a likeness (gee I hope I am not THIS UGLY). lol :( Carmelo, says I picked a bad pic to render, it does not do me justice. I only picked it because of the contrasts of it. Oh I have not yet added my lashes maybe that will make me look better. lol never did look good with out makeup.

09-10-2005, 03:36 PM
wow! this is a self portrait sultry?! if i looked like that i wouldn't complain!! you're doing a gorgeous job on the skin! it's all good but that stands out to me the most. i agree with the others....it's so smooth looking! is that done with lots of blending? the cheekbone is very well rendered. nice job of shading!

09-10-2005, 03:39 PM
the latest update on my Dad. i'm scanning this so it's not the best image. again...C&C welcome!

09-10-2005, 04:38 PM
Thanx Billie, I see your doing good on the contour skin shading too gf. :)

Cathie Jones
09-10-2005, 07:27 PM
Hi everybody! :wave:

Sults, you're really getting there!!! The subtle shading is looking wonderful.

Billie, your dad looks like lots of the men we met in England last year - especially in Cornwall. I like him!!!

09-10-2005, 07:33 PM
Hi Foz!
I don't like scans too much either- but he is looking wonderful. I love the joy and life in his face. :clap: :clap:

Posting stage 3 - I think. Worked on the bg as I thought this would help with the darks in her. The bg is actually 9 layers-tried 9b, 8b wash, jet black watercolor (which I liked) and ebony. Worked on her hair some more. Now I am adding the darks in her and the dreaded hands :eek: -which I think-besides her face is a focal point. Sorry-photo looks blurry again. :rolleyes:

Connie-you were right-I brought her hairline down a tad-you have a great knack for finding the things that are throwing the whole thing off. Thanks!

Mary Woodul
09-10-2005, 07:35 PM
Billie your Dad is looking great. Your going so fast with it and the expression is looking good.

Mary Woodul
09-10-2005, 07:37 PM
Judi, we cross posted. Wow, that background really brought her out. I love her expression Judi, I think you have it. She looks so alive.

09-10-2005, 07:52 PM
thanks Sultry, CJ, Mary and Judi! Judi, that looks so much better w/the black bg!! this is just excellent! i didn't know watercolor would go over graphite! the bg looks nice and even, too. it would have showed up on the post if it wasn't. are you using any fixative on this?

09-10-2005, 08:08 PM
TY Mary and Foz, :wave:
I used wc pencil not wet. Whew-I am glad the bg looks even-it has been time consuming working at that.
No fixative yet.

09-10-2005, 08:34 PM
Judy this is wonderful, if you want it darker, spray with fixative like Jay had me do with smokey and you can put another layer (it will be pitch black). I like how the little girl just popped out.
Ty CJ :)
HEY TROY Where are you? We Miss Ya.

09-10-2005, 08:50 PM
OK- I sprayed it.
I only sprayed the bg-or should I have sprayed the whole thing?

Mary Woodul
09-10-2005, 09:28 PM
Judi, don't spray, if you think you are going to erase anything. I can tell by experience. :eek:

Yes, Troy, where are you? We all miss you!!!!

09-10-2005, 09:48 PM
Then good in only spaying the bg. I covered her up. Thanks Mary! :)

Cathie Jones
09-10-2005, 10:15 PM
Judi, do you know where Troy lives? If he had hurricane problems he may not have electricity.

09-10-2005, 10:33 PM
Hi CJ, :wave:
Troy lives on the East coast in Savannah, Georgia. Don't worry-Got another e-mail from him this evening-he got back really late the night of his last e-mail and needed a day to recover. He said it is really bad in the hurricane zone. :(
-Really he is well as are his family/friends he has assured me. :)
But he is home. :)

Cathie Jones
09-10-2005, 11:04 PM
Thanks Judi. Glad he's okay and looking forward to seeing him here again.

09-10-2005, 11:05 PM
Billie, your work is coming along just fine--just a word of warning--make sure that you avoid any hard edges whenever possible. Look at Sults's work as an example--also, look at Judi's master copy--both are good examples of avoiding the hard edge. When you do a painting there is always a tendancy to want to rush--so be sure to take your time and just nurture it along--slowly.

Judi--I like that background a lot--keep it up

HI sults!!!--nice work so far--be careful not to hurry the background. The next time that you guys do a portrait--do this little excercise--especially those of you in the colored pencil frame of mine. DO your background first and THEN do the main part of the picture. You will find this interesting to say the least.

Troy Rochford
09-11-2005, 02:07 AM
Hi All,

My apologies once again for the extended absence. I know Judi already clued everyone in on where I've been, so I won't bore you with all that, but just so you know, everyone is fine on my end. I just ended up being gone a lot longer than I anticipated. I'm considering extending this class another week so that I have time to catch up and really take in all of the ideas that you guys have put forth here. I DO pretty much have a new class ready, but it can wait a week, or at least a few days. I also want to be able to give you some feedback on THIS class and all that general stuff that I would have been doing all along had I not been absent, and having the new class up and running at the same time would just prove distracting and confusing, I think.

By the way, starting with the next class, we will be on schedule as normal, with a new class being posted every 2 weeks. If THIS class gets extended another week, that will NOT be a habit, so try to resist the urge to come to my house and throw rocks at me!! It's been a chaotic couple of weeks to say the least, but things are finally getting back in order.

Some quick observations...

I'm not intentionally singling anyone out, or intentionally leaving anyone out here. These are just the observations that jumped out at me while I read over this thread tonight. I still need to go back and read in more detail and make some specific notes and whatnot, and I'll be doing this over the next several days. For now, here goes:

MARY - vase looks great!! Your color work is compelling. Background class is in our future. I'm just not telling you when!! :evil:

CJ - I like the little blue boat! But it needs a big blue boat to go with it!! Or a monkey in an orange vest rowing it. You decide.:)

ANITA - great work, but we've had this discussion privately a million times. Hate your work all you want - no one else does!! If I understood you correctly, you had an issue with conveying the roundess of your head or fullness of your hair with your rendering of the hair, and you were frustrated about that? That's just a matter of manipulating your values to create the illusion of more layers of hair for fullness, and remember 3 words for your head shape in the hair - BAND OF LIGHT. :wave:

JUDI - lol, as I was reading through this, I actually thought you might chicken out on the black bg and I was preparing myself to scold you mercilessly!!!;) Great work!

SULTS - your sp is looking better and better, but I don't like the way the comp reads on the right. The whole "emerging from darkness" thing isn't a bad idea, but at a glance it just looks like you drew the overall shape of your head wrong. I think you even made a comment to that effect if I'm not mistaken. Also, you wondered if you are blending too much with chamois in the early stages. The answer is yes. As I said, it does look better with each update, but I think on your next project if you would force yourself to do your entire skin tone process in REVERSE ORDER, you would love the results. Build up some real skin texture with pencil strokes, block in your dark tones, and THEN start worrying about smoothing out the tones. If you rely on blending or simply brushing on powdered graphite in order to build your skin tones, your drawing will be flat. I apologize if it sounds like I'm attacking your work, it's just that I used to approach skin tones a lot like you do, so I know what I'm talking about. Believe me, if you try what I'm suggesting, you'll shock yourself with how much better your results are.:)

I know I left out a lot of people and observations, but these are just the things I can remember off the top of my head. More to come! :)

09-11-2005, 04:59 AM
Sults - so much improvement. The cheekbones are excellent, the hair maybe the next best part. Do you have Photoshop or something equivalent? Under Images, there is an option called Histogram. This shows a graph of the lights and darks. You could compare a scan of your drawing with a scan of the photo. (I know the theory, haven't tried myself yet.)

09-11-2005, 06:38 AM
sults,sis, what an improvement you made!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:
I really like it. But.... (that might be one of the reasons why I pop up less and less here, I always find things I would like to suggest for improvements and I feel like the "party pooper")... what I miss a little bit is tonal range in the face. You have all the shading and forms there but they are mostly in a limited value range. What I would like to see are some real highlights and some real dark areas to make this great drawing come more to life. It might be the scan, I can't say or even my screen. Unfortunately all I can judge from is what comes up on my computer.

Mary Woodul
09-11-2005, 07:43 AM
Yay, Troy!!!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

How great to see you back safe and sound and that your family is fine.

Thank you Troy, and I will be waiting for that bg class. :evil:

09-11-2005, 07:51 AM
TROYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY so glad your safely back. I do understand what your saying about the shading. Believe me, this is something I tried because I saw a very good tutorial from another artist who just renders his portraits with a chamois. He does excellent work ( I on the other hand, was drawing blindly, meaning I am trying to do what he did but really I do not know exactly what he did). I always have rendered with strokes, believe it or not, this is my very first time I did something without them. I have started to use more darks though with a little strokes but mostly with the chamois on my next update you will see. I am not ready to scan it yet. Ty for the good C&C. :)

Jay, lol, I know my bg was an after thought, boy I learned from that big mistake this time. to be honest, I did not think I was going to get far when I started this I thought I would just work on the face and part of the hair and thats that. Mainly, I wanted to try to get likeness down.
Now that I am getting a good skin texture, I feel kind of sorry I did not plan better.

RR, Bro, I do not want to hear you that you are staying away, don't you realize how valuable your input is? You have helped so many of us with your artistic eyes in giving us such needed C&C. I am sure all of us here in Basic 101, will agree with me. Also, think of all the newbies who have not had the honor to learn from you yet. You better keep posting here Bro.
As for your C&C, I agree with that too, as I said before I thought I was not getting enough darks. So, I am working on this (and you would know whose tutorial I was following, Geary's). :wink:

09-11-2005, 08:55 AM
sults sis, I will take a look at what Gary did. I'd suggest not only darkening the shading but lifting out the highlights as well. In my first Alex attempt I tried to do all by always going darker and ended up with a "suntan" drawing. This last drawing I let the lighter areas stand light on purpose and "modeled" by apllying various darks in the areas I wanted to "form". Looking at your sp reminds me a bit of my first Alex. What helped me was putting the center of the dark shade first and then work towards the highlights after having left the highlights white and adapting later if needed.

09-11-2005, 09:11 AM
Cool Bro ty for looking at Geary's Bruce tutorial and yeah I see what you mean about the suntan lol. I have been pulling highlights too. I think he said when you pull them to go over with a chamois (but he did not say how, so I am going over but not blending the skin so much and I do like what is happening). :)

09-11-2005, 09:59 AM
Morning all :wave:

And WELCOME BACK TROY! :clap: :clap:

Hey Sults-where is this tutorial by Geary Bruce please?

09-11-2005, 10:03 AM
It is on AP Judi, I told ya about it gf in a pm remember?

09-11-2005, 10:09 AM
Sorry I don't remember the name. I will see if I can find it. Thanks. :)

09-11-2005, 10:18 AM
I am sorry Judi I will pm you, I was on the phone with my sister and I was too distracted. I am sooooooooooooooooo excited, I am going home for 2 weeks to visit my family Oct 10 - Oct 24th. :) So I will not be here but I will miss of all of you.

09-11-2005, 10:25 AM
I am sooooooooooooooooo excited, I am going home for 2 weeks to visit my family Oct 10 - Oct 24th. :)

Hallelujah!!! This is so-o-o wonderful Sults!!!!!! I am so happy for you!

09-11-2005, 10:33 AM
I know you are gf, and what makes this so wonderful is that since it is a wedding reception for my sister, I will be able to see alot of family I have not seen in years. Plus I will be seeing my daughters too and maybe Joseph. I hope to get an oil painting done for my mom while I am there too. She has been asking for the same Chile painting I did for my sister but rendered a little different.

09-11-2005, 01:06 PM
welcome back Troy!!!!!!!!!:clap: :wave:

09-11-2005, 02:22 PM
here's the third installment of 'Dad'...WIP. i've darkened this enough now i don't have to tweek it to get it to show up. C&C welcome!

09-11-2005, 05:46 PM
Hi Foz,
Dad looks wonderful!! :clap: You are well on your way to a drawing you will want to frame.
BTW - Something I learned from Sults on a scan is to do a greyscale of it.

Don't know if I will finish her fingers, arms and the box today. :o
Posting 90% and I am tired of her and want to get started on the WDT.

You all are anxious to do the WDT too huh? :D

09-11-2005, 06:15 PM
Judi, this is beyond great!!!! i love it!:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: her hands turned out beautifully!! BTW, thanks for the tip on scanned images and the great comment!

09-11-2005, 06:41 PM
Wow Billie such a drastic change from your last post. I see more than just a drawing but I see life in this. You have brought us the closest to meeting your dad with this.

Judi, I am in awe of her she is lovely.

Well, change in my leaving due to personal reasons, I will only be gone Oct 17th to Oct 25th.

09-11-2005, 07:00 PM
sorry to post this but i'm doing it just for my own benefit. i need to see how far i'm off from a greyscale of my ref.

09-11-2005, 07:55 PM
Billie, I think to see one more thing right now, the tip of the nose is pointing in the reference to the right (our right) and in the drawing we have it to the left (our left). Can this be adjusted?

Mary Woodul
09-11-2005, 08:01 PM
Sults, what wonderful news, I am so happy for you. I know what it is to be so far away from your family. I am the only one down here.

Billie, you Dad is looking great!

Judi, your drawing is superb, I can't get over what you have done with that gorgeous expression. I think it is the best i have seen from you. :clap: :clap: :clap:

09-11-2005, 08:48 PM
Thanks Mary, Sults and Foz. :)

Foz :wave: -you can do a greyscale of your scan too. Attached.

09-11-2005, 09:10 PM
Billie, I think to see one more thing right now, the tip of the nose is pointing in the reference to the right (our right) and in the drawing we have it to the left (our left). Can this be adjusted?

thanks for the input, Reinhard! if you noticed i drew his head so it's looking more upright and straight ahead. Judi caught this. this was a mistake but i chose to keep it that way because it seemed to make a better portrait. i changed the direction of his nose a bit to compensate for my mistake. i can change anything on this within reason. this is only a trial run for the final portrait. something to keep in mind that's not obvious from the reference...my Dad's nose was bent to the left( our right) from being broken and not set properly. how would i factor this in? i probably should move his nose to the our right again.

09-11-2005, 09:21 PM
Hi Foz :wave:
Just a suggestion-try shortening the defining upper 'line' of his nostril on the left. Then make a couple of copies and experiment shading till you get his nose the way you want it.

09-11-2005, 10:22 PM
thanks Judi! good idea!

Troy Rochford
09-11-2005, 11:38 PM
Billie that's looking good, and Judi has guided you well. I also like that he is looking more toward the viewer rather than out of the composition. Cool stuff.

Sults, I don't know who you're talking about with the chamois thing, but if that's something you were deliberately trying then that's fine. There are of course no set rules, but I do believe that you'd get a lot more depth and realism in that pic if you used the other approach. A lot of that is subjective though. To me, that method just produces an over-blended, airbrushed sort of look. It ultimately depends on what look you personally are going after, though. Where's the new update, btw?!! ;)

Judi that pic is great.

Oh, and yes, I am extending this class for the reasons outlined in my previous post. If you guys get bored and move on to the wdt or something, I understand! Just keep a look out though, because I'll be babbling randomly on this thread as I go through it in more detail.. lol. :)

Cathie Jones
09-11-2005, 11:57 PM
Hi Troy. Yep, I'm bored and have moved on . . . but I keep checking back here for the updates and now for your babbling . . . :evil: Glad you're back.

09-12-2005, 07:11 AM
Hey Midnight Cowboy :wave:
-Glad you are back! :D

CJ :wave: -Really glad you are doing the WDT!

09-12-2005, 12:08 PM
glad to see you back in the saddle so to speak, Troy! glad you like my portrait, too!

09-13-2005, 11:15 PM
Where's the new update, btw?!! ;)
Ok, Teach here is an update. Still working on it.


Troy Rochford
09-13-2005, 11:34 PM
Looking good, Judy! Watch your light source and pay attention to the shadows on your lips. You haven't done anything wrong at this point, but you need to add some shadows in certain areas. I forgot about that thing you emailed me yesterday, btw, but I'll get on that ASAP!

09-14-2005, 05:26 AM
I am about to start Basic 101 lesson 1, so I have been printing off the PDFs for the classes like crazy. However I noticed that the PDFs stop at lesson 23. I was wondering if anyone would be continuing on doing the PDFs or if this wonderful archive will no longer exist after lesson 23? Whoever was doing the PDFs for the lessons, I thank you from the bottom of my heart, they are a fantatic tool/reference. These classes are amazing!


09-14-2005, 08:34 AM
Hiyas Paula, Welcome to WC D/s Basic 101, I don't know really about the PDF, Deb was doing them before.

Jay, Judi, CJ and Mary do you know anything about this?

Cathie Jones
09-14-2005, 08:47 AM
Hi everybody!

Yep, Deb and Ann were doing them, but they stopped hanging out in 101, so they've been pretty sporadic.

Guess I can take it over, I can make pdf's too. I'll try to get them caught up soon.

Sults, your sp is looking better all the time.

09-14-2005, 09:00 AM
hey CJ can you teach me how to do it? I would help out too if you want. I have been wanting to learn to do that. & Ty for the nice comment ohh oops ty too Troy. By the way Troy, I am confused on what you mean watch my lights. Do you mean I have too much now?
What I did is this...
I pulled my lights with the kneaded eraser but this time I did not blend them as much with the darker areas (maybe I need to blend them more?).

09-14-2005, 07:14 PM
sultry, i'm not sure exactly what you did but you managed to bring the left(our right) eye out more. this looks way better!!!! in the prior post i thought that eye looked like it was too deeply set. now it's out where it belongs and this is looking amazing! i tried to do a self portrait the other night just looking at myself in the mirror. OMG...either i'm REAL ugly or i didn't do a very good job! anyway, it went in file 13. i'd hate for anyone to see me like that!

Mary Woodul
09-14-2005, 07:52 PM
Hi Sults, your doing very well. I just see something a little confusing. It is the highlight from your left eye, that comes down from the bridge of your nose and down the cheek, it sort of connects with a highlight over your nose and catches the viewers eye. I know you haven't finished and you will probably smooth that out. It is looking

09-14-2005, 07:52 PM
LOL, Billie I know what you mean about sp, I think we women tend to accentuate what we feel is not pretty about us. I Mean I have such dark circles under my eyes and I feel I have a big nose and little eyes. So what did I draw? I drew sunken small eyes and made my nose look even larger because I had the shadow on the eyes instead of the side of the nose.
What I did, is this, I took my ref pic and placed my sp rendering side by side in my photo program, I then measured across from the top of my eyes to the other eye in the ref pic, then I did the same in the sp. I found out I was too low on my right eye and needed to make my left larger. I also see that I need to slant my mouth (which I have not done yet). :( I am trying to figure out how to do that without leaving tattletail signs of my mouth behind. If you look at the ref pic and class 18 it has a little smile and this one does not. I should of done the one in my profile I was smiling more there.
By the way, YOUR A VERY PRETTY WOMAN Billie. :)

Hiyas Mary :), we must of been xposting, ty gf, I did not note that till you told me. I do plan to do more to the lighter areas your so right. :) & Ty

Mary Woodul
09-14-2005, 07:55 PM
Sults we crossposted. Hi!

Hi Billie! :wave:

09-14-2005, 09:04 PM
I am trying to enrich my skills in drawing. I took classes at Callenwolde in Atlanta a year or so ago and have worked at it off and on, more off than on. I did some colored pencil for a while and then found pastels and am currently taking lessons. My seeing skills need a lot of work, so do my modeling and value choices. I have difficulties paying attention and drawing accurately what I see. I want to draw my dog Bella and will attempt that for my initial drawing. This is the reference photo of her.

Cathie Jones
09-14-2005, 09:47 PM
Hi Sherry. That's one darling dog you have there, no wonder you want to draw her!

Sults, you need to have an Adobe program that will let you create a pdf, then you just copy and paste the parts of the lesson you want and *poof* send it to the Adobe distiller to create a pdf.

We don't have the full Adobe program, but we use Adobe PageMaker to put the newspaper together and we have to turn the pages into pdf's before we e-mail them to our printer.

09-14-2005, 10:14 PM
Hello Sherry!:wave: I love your dog! what breed is she? i know exactly what you mean about learning to not just look but really see. the dog we're working on in the WDT this week is a perfect example. when i started it i first went for the basic outline...measurements, etc. then when it came to the details i got lost. i need to learn to look at the various shapes, lines and shadows and see how they relate to each other....to make sense of them and not just be mindlessly recreating shapes in hopes the result will look like the reference. my eye seems to go everywhere at once. i'm finding i need to just sit and study my reference for a day and really see what's happening and what makes this subject look the way it does. as far as learning to use values you've come to the right place. hope you're not afraid of the 'darks'. they'll cure you fast if you are!

09-14-2005, 10:15 PM
Hi Mary!!!:wave:

09-14-2005, 10:22 PM
What I did, is this, I took my ref pic and placed my sp rendering side by side in my photo program, I then measured across from the top of my eyes to the other eye in the ref pic, then I did the same in the sp. I found out I was too low on my right eye and needed to make my left larger. I also see that I need to slant my mouth (which I have not done yet).

sultry, what photo program do you use? i saw a demo on WC using a program to check for size and placement. i think they were using a racoon as a reference. anyway, can you recommend a program? i'd love to have something like this!

Mary Woodul
09-14-2005, 10:54 PM
Billie, JayD was recommending the Gimp that you can download free. I downloaded it but then took it off because I have photoshop and aonther one that I still don't know quite how to use. You can find it at googles.

Hi CJ! :wave:

Welcome! Sherrybella, cute dog!!!!

09-14-2005, 11:07 PM
Billie I saw that too, that is the lay over method in Photo Shop. I do not have Photo Shop but I do have Micrografx Picture Publisher (it is alot like Photo Shop) (This came with my computer) I can do the layover method with it. I can also find out how much contrast is in the ref and how much I am off in my own picture.
But I perfer to use my other photo software that came with the scanner. It allows me to make a banner or poster by drag & drop the images into the blank paper. I love it because I can size my ref pic and then exact size my drawing right next to the ref pic. I save this and then I can edit it with lines to find where I am off on my facial features.

I am not sure what is out there, but Jay did say there was a free one out there, I have not used it because my firewall would not let it download. It kept freezing my computer.

Hiyas Sherry, Welcome to WC D/s Basic 101, I think your dog is cute. I can tell you if you take the first 5 classes, it will help you tremendously in to draw what you see and also help you to see the values. You may then take whatever classes you please to. Because the first 5 are a vital in learning the Basics for drawing starting from posture, holding the pencil, using the pencil to studying all the geo shapes that are in everything you may draw. To learning the light & shade and contour value shading.

Anita Murphy
09-14-2005, 11:18 PM
Sults I have been watching your SP. (Did YOU know how lovely you are? I have downloaded a pic of you off the library to do sometime in the future.)
Your right cheek bone needs softening. The shadow extends too far into your face and the highlight too far into your hairline.
You are so beautiful and you really need to show that.

09-14-2005, 11:23 PM
LMAO, sorry I am so tired and you are so funny Anita. Going nite nite now but umm I am trying really I am. I just for some reason cannot get the values correct. I have another technique to use and I also have to fix my mouth. I really am thinking of starting this over again. sigh But I really truely ty so much for the nice compliment and you know gf your a foxy lady yourself.

09-15-2005, 03:35 AM
Cathie and Sultry,
Thank you so much for offering to create the PDFs for the classes. :clap:

09-15-2005, 11:13 AM
Anita, here is the program Jay was talking about ... GIMP (http://www.gimp.org/). Oh and that last post ( post #236) is not where I am at. That was what I did to get to where I am at in post #220 of this thread. I just wanted to show you what I meant by using the side by method.

Paula, I cannot promise you I can do it because I do not have the software but I am trying to figure out how to get it. If I do not get it, please all thanks should be given to only CJ because she has agreed to take it on and does have the software. I really do ask if anyone else has it, please help her out because it is a big job to do.

Anita Murphy
09-15-2005, 11:57 AM
Sults - I was looking at post #220 :D IMHO you are being a little harsh with that cheekbone - but that is only IMHO! Interesting method - I do something similar but not side by side but for positioning features - would we all be total failures as artists if we didn't have computers?????????

09-15-2005, 12:39 PM
I know Anita, I agree with you on the cheek area. I was getting a little carried away with my shading and lights. I think I have made the darks too blunt next to the light. It needs to blend more rounder and smaller. I have my cheek bone like a canoe and it should be more like a half of a egg. lol
I only said that about the # 220 post because I have gotten 5 emails from others saying why did you change the eyes???? lol
Did you try Gimp yet?

Anita Murphy
09-15-2005, 12:48 PM
Sults - I don't have FTP on my computer so I don't think I can download it.

Edit: Ah I found out how. Downloading now 39%........40%......

09-15-2005, 01:13 PM
Cool Beans let me know if it works for you. :) Jay also gave me a link for pdf editing so hopefully I can figure this out and help out CJ with the PDF files. x your fingers guys.

Mary Woodul
09-15-2005, 01:21 PM
Sults if you can the teach me how, I will help you with them. Good luck!!!

09-15-2005, 01:40 PM
Mary I am getting there I think. :clap: I will pm you the link. I have a poem I did in my word docs, and did a practice run with it and it turned into a PDF file so fast.
Now I am reading help on how to make it a link so I can copy and paste it to the WC Learning center(not the poem but the classes). As soon as I figure this out, I will send you the instructions.;)

I think if we rotate the classes on who can do PDFs it will take a load off of poor CJ.

Mary Woodul
09-15-2005, 02:12 PM
Yes Sults, I agree and I will be glad to help. Thanks.

09-15-2005, 02:40 PM
Sultry, thank you for the compliment!:) it never hurts to hear that once in awhile. i should check out my scanner program to see if i can do the same thing with mine that you did. from what i can see you did the same w/your sp that i did w/my dad's portrait. you changed the angle of the whole head slightly. from the post you made the eye is raised as high as the lip area. can you work off that and not have to erase anything?

Mary, thank you for giving me the name of the free download! the link that Sults posted to Gimp....is that the site i want? it looked complicated to me.:(

09-15-2005, 03:38 PM
Billie, I am not sure about Gimp because I have not used it, Jay recommended it. Sorry I am confused of what you asked me about the eye and mouth ( I have been working on class 24 PDF file, yes I made one but I do not know how to place it in the website that CJ has in signature, so I emailed her it).
If it works, Mary, I will email the info.

Mary Woodul
09-15-2005, 03:40 PM
Hi Billie, yes that is the site and I think JayD told me, it was easier that than photoshop. I'm still learning to use photoshop and it is complicated for me also. Once you get the hang of it it can help a lot. I resize there, so that I don't have to loose my high resolution photos, once I have resized them, it automatically keeps the original.