Ferryland

[Robert]

I started another one this afternoon. I relied more on the photo for the shape of the road and I also tilted the angle on the horizon a little more.

So far, I've used permanent green light mixed with varying amounts of burnt sienna, cadmium yellow light and dioxazine purple for the ground and I've used white, cobalt blue and a pinch of cadmium red light for the sky.

The wash is on a 20x24 readymade canvas coated with one coat of acrylic ground that was allowed to dry for three or four days.

Attached are the block-in and the sketch. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts or advice.

[Bill Wray]

I like it just that simple.

[Robert]

Bill, the photo's a little deceptive - it's really thinner than it appears. But I'll try not to kill it. On the other hand, maybe I need to kill a few as part of the learning process. Back on the other hand (too bad they're only two) I'm not sure I understand what killing is anymore. If Rackstraw Downes can go back to the same location and paint for days that turn into months, isn't it a little presumptuous to be concerned about overworking a painting in two or three days?
Sometimes, I think we have this "cult of spontaneity" that's possibly been a little overhyped. I dont' know where it started - the western appropriation of Chinese and Japanese Zen brush drawings, maybe - but it fits in well with our fast culture. When I compare the traffic in the plein air forum with the traffic in the still life forum (or this subforum) I get a sense of it. Location painting is fast, fun and accessible - all good things and I'm not knocking it - it's been very good to me and for me. I can't think of a better way to learn basics than by painting from life a lot - and painting outside forces me to paint a lot, because the fruit rots faster, if you know what I mean.
But I also sense it's reached a highwater mark with me and I need to get back inside and do some more exploring and thinking. I hope it will make me a better painter.

Long rant. I ate too much Mexican food last night and my stomach woke me up.

[Bill Wray]

Actually I think the highest achievement in Plein air is to have the skill and discipline to stop at the first place you can. I'm my opinion re- working is never as good a the first pass and inevitably leads to overworking. Obviously some things have to be fixed, but the goal is to get it right the first pass.

I think painting is one of the good obsessive compulsions. Because of that, it's hard not to make too many strokes, work too fast, and to stop when it's finished. I've been taking Jove Wang privately. I can't tell you how frustrating it is when he comes over and tells me I'm finished, when I feel there is more to do, but I know he's right.

[Bart W]

I must admit that I like the sketch as well Robert. Apart from the good work you did on the composition IMO.
But I'll try not to kill it. On the other hand, maybe I need to kill a few as part of the learning process.
Agree. Used to play chess at some level. Especially in the beginning I sometimes could see at the faces of my opponent that they were up to something. That I shouldn't do the obvious thing. But when I couldn't find the reason - no matter how hard I tried - I just did it anyway..... learning it the hard way :D

Sometimes, I think we have this "cult of spontaneity" that's possibly been a little overhyped. I dont' know where it started - the western appropriation of Chinese and Japanese Zen brush drawings, maybe - but it fits in well with our fast culture. When I compare the traffic in the plein air forum with the traffic in the still life forum (or this subforum) I get a sense of it.
I'v been discussing this at home as well - Did you read this thread (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282843)? Adriënne has been thinking about writing another post to discuss other possible views on it. Hope she does.

Keep on eating mexican food!

[Robert]

I agree with you Bill - at least outside - and for the most part, well sort of. I think there're different approaches. When I was under heavy instruction three years ago, I set up outside for the first time with one of my teachers and proceeded to do an underpainting right under his nose. He got irritated and asked me what I thought I was doing. When I told him "an underpainting" his voice went up a couple of octaves and he asked me why I wanted to paint it TWICE. I just sort of stood there like a dope.

Anyway, here's the second pass. It's turned into a battle and I was thankful that Marc posted his to show how it doesn't have to be such a fight. This one's morphed from a fairly straightforward wash into something in which I expect Wiley Coyote to come charging over the hill after Road Runner any minute. I'm going to wait until the paint gets tacky and struggle with it some more to soften it and take away some of the cartoon look - hopefully.

[Robert]

http://www.artcritical.com/DavidCohen/SUN70.htm

Hope the above link works. I haven't seen that thread before, Bart, thanks.
I'd been thinking about and having some serious questions about the purpose of outdoor sketching when a former teacher told me about Rackstraw Downes' show at Betty Cunningham's. When I read the attached Cohen interview it was like a dim lightbulb going off that's gotten brighter over time.
That's why I think "overworked" translates into "underskilled" - in my case at least. I'm not ashamed of it. I've never worked large much and, except for school, I haven't worked inside all that much, either. It's fun to be back in learning mode.
I've visited your site, Bart and I like your work a lot.

[Bill Wray]

I agree with you Bill - at least outside - and for the most part, well sort of. I think there're different approaches. When I was under heavy instruction three years ago, I set up outside for the first time with one of my teachers and proceeded to do an underpainting right under his nose. He got irritated and asked me what I thought I was doing. When I told him "an underpainting" his voice went up a couple of octaves and he asked me why I wanted to paint it TWICE. I just sort of stood there like a dope.

Anyway, here's the second pass. It's turned into a battle and I was thankful that Marc posted his to show how it doesn't have to be such a fight. This one's morphed from a fairly straightforward wash into something in which I expect Wiley Coyote to come charging over the hill after Road Runner any minute. I'm going to wait until the paint gets tacky and struggle with it some more to soften it and take away some of the cartoon look - hopefully.

I'm all for a light underpainting. I'm refering to finishing up and then going to far. Although when you can leave some of the underpaitng, all the better.

[Robert]

Bill, I really do understand. But that spontaneity and freshness is hard won, especially in the studio. You're fortunate to be studying with a master. I love Jove Wang's work a lot - but I do notice that his studio work is different in quality from his outdoor work; less fluid looking but still sparkly. That's why I think going back and forth from inside to outside, from doing "premier coups" to more labored pieces, is good for growth. It's like the diffrence between a two minute pose and a long pose in life drawing - both are valid and informative.

[Bart W]

http://www.artcritical.com/DavidCohen/SUN70.htm

Hope the above link works. It does Robert. Interesting article - thanks! It contains some interesting idea's and it's a nice way of thinking.

Like the idea of making short term/spontane PA's in search of solutions, colour and composition and then finally making "the real" painting - be it indoor, outdoor or where ever. But the PA's will then probably be at least "painterly interesting" - not per definition less valuable than this "real painting". It's perhaps just a different aim.

Thanks for visiting my site.

[Robert]

I'm glad you liked the article, Bart. I have a lot of enthusiasm for Downes' work and I think his methods of going about selecting a scene, getting to know it through drawings from different points of view and finally setting up on location for a long painting is fascinating.

Here's a site that has many of Downes' prepatory drawings:
http://www.nyss.org/downes/checklist.htm

[Bill Wray]

Bill, I really do understand. But that spontaneity and freshness is hard won, especially in the studio. You're fortunate to be studying with a master. I love Jove Wang's work a lot - but I do notice that his studio work is different in quality from his outdoor work; less fluid looking but still sparkly. That's why I think going back and forth from inside to outside, from doing "premier coups" to more labored pieces, is good for growth. It's like the diffrence between a two minute pose and a long pose in life drawing - both are valid and informative.

Jove and Matt Smith can do stuff you think is outside yet there are working from photo's a lot of the time. Edward Seago claimed to be able to do his paintings entirely out of his head in his later years... but I get your point. only to well...

[Robert]

This one's pretty much done.

[Bart W]

Nice soft colours Robert - really friendly. Not the rainy day anymore as on the sketch.
Very nice quiet athmosphere.
Two thinks I thought about when I saw the picture. First most prominent thing is the side of the road to the left of the viewer. I think it might be a good idea to break this line up a bit just as in the first sketch. The eye follows this line as one of the first things and quickly runs over the picture following it. It might be nice to break this movement as it gives a more relaxed feeling to the picture just as the colours suggest IMO. The white dot of canvas shining through in the sketch works good to break the movement f.ex. ... again... IMO.

The other less prominent thing is the direction of the clouds. But that might certainly also be a personal thing. There's a nice movement in the sky in the sketch against the movement of the hill and the road f.ex., but it could be that you don't want that.

Thanks a lot for the link to "Downes' prepatory drawings". Very interesting indeed. Made me once more think about doing drawings on a site to find out what I would like to do/say. I think that as a result of this thread's discussion I started on a new painting more carefully as usual. Did a plein air on a site - made picture's a few days later - carefully analysed them and found a final composition and today I returned to the site to take a look again at colours, shape's etc. Planning to do some oil scetches first before making a bigger studio piece. Just have to do it now....

[Robert]

Bart - thanks, I softened the line per your suggestion. The clouds, I don't know, I kind of like that they provide an exclamation point to the flatness.

Glad you liked the Downes drawings!

[JanB]

Hi Robert...I've enjoyed reading through this thread very much...great discussion going on here. The final piece is beautiful, very successful I think. (I like Bart's suggestion about the edge of the road as a tweak). I have similar feelings about the value of both PA and studio works. I haven't spent much time doing studio works so I'm not so adverse to spending time inside painting and ....well I get bored with stuff easily LOL and like a change of pace.

[Bill Wray]

worked out well. Next!