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Carey Griffel
09-09-2004, 08:41 PM
I am hereby beginning the first DAD--"Do A Duplicate"--to complement our MOMs. :p

This idea orginated from RhiannonJ in the September WOYE thread as both she and I are planning on doing copies of different Waterhouse paintings and thought that it would be a great idea to put them together as wips in one thread. Anyone who wants to join in is more than welcome!!

Here are the "rules" for this thread as it stands at the moment:

Anyone can chose any painting by John William Waterhouse and/or discuss his probable painting techniques. Post to this thread as a wip, take all the time you need to start or finish; there are no deadlines and this is entirely open-ended. Anyone may join in at any time.

The idea behind this is that this can serve to complement our MOMs for those who wish to do more challenging paintings (ie, those that might take longer than a month) or for those who wish to chose their own master to copy or for those who wish to chose another painting by the MOMs masters. Any help or advice or critique is welcome here (unless otherwise stated by the individual artist) as we are all here to learn from each other.

My hope is that others will post more threads for other individual masters.

I plan on copying Waterhouse's "Boreas" for starters. The image is attatched below; I should have mine started by the end of the week and I will post my progress.

~!Carey

Also, here are a few links to some of Waterhouse's paintings.

http://www.johnwilliamwaterhouse.com/paintings.aspx

http://www.jwwaterhouse.com/


http://bertc.com/waterhouse_menu.htm (http://bertc.com/waterhouse_menu.htm)

He can also be found at the ARC
http://www.artrenewal.com/

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Sep-2004/32203-waterhouse_boreas_small.jpg

dcorc
09-10-2004, 12:03 AM
Excellent, Carey, and a great introduction!

DAD - ROFL - brilliant!

Dave

RhiannonJ
09-10-2004, 10:07 AM
Way ta go, Carey! Great intro and I love DADs!!! That's perfect!

I'll probably be finishing "Miranda" today or tomorrow. I plan on doing "Windflowers" next. Here's an image of it:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Sep-2004/32418-Windflowers.jpg

Right now I plan on lightly toning my canvas first, then do a sketch. I want to do an underpainting but am unsure as to how to proceed with this. In a lot of Waterhouse's unfinished paintings you see what I term an underpainting but it's not monotone. It simply shows a rough sketch with all the pigments being used. Then he just continues to build layer upon layer. Check this link out that Dave provided:

http://www.artrenewal.com/images/artists/w/Waterhouse_John_William/large/Waterhouse_Maidens_picking_(study).jpg

Carey, any ideas as to how you'll start Boreas? I gotta admit, I am a bit nervous about this one but what the heck.. it's only a piece of canvas. :D

Rhi

artbabe21
09-10-2004, 10:40 AM
DAD's......LOL!! I love it! :wink2:

That Boreas is stunning!! I saw your sketch & can't wait to see your painting!

Rhi...I already have her 'Windflowers' on a canvas...ready to go! I think I cropped her though! There are so many of his paintings that call to me! :wink2:

Rosic
09-10-2004, 11:32 AM
I am hereby beginning the first DAD--"Do A Duplicate"--to complement our MOMs. :p

What a great idea Carey! Love the DAD's idea! :clap:
Bern

RhiannonJ
09-10-2004, 02:35 PM
Here's the final for Miranda. Least I think so. I keep fiddling with it and I feel it's time to stop.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Sep-2004/32418-mirandatempest_final01.jpg

And a close up of her. Her face looks better in the actual painting. Never painted a figure before, much less a face. :D

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Sep-2004/32418-mirandatempest_final_facede.jpg

Comments and critiques are welcome so I can improve next time around.

Rhi

WV.Artistry
09-10-2004, 04:37 PM
Carey, after I saw your sketch -- I just wanted to say, "thanks for the inspiration". You turned a light switch on in my brain :)

Richard

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Sep-2004/48784-Sketch_4.jpg

Biki
09-10-2004, 04:49 PM
What fun. I will be that.

I have decided to alternate between copying a master & doing my own inspirational thing.

so the next is mine - then there is Boogies next month. so i guess i will join you sooner or later. :wave:

Carey Griffel
09-15-2004, 03:44 AM
Hello all!

First of all, thank you for your encouragement and interest. Hopefully we'll see some good works crop up here!

Richard, you're very welcome! :) Love your drawing. That's another one of his paintings that I was enthralled with. I love the intimacy of the woman smelling the rose.

Biki, I'll be watching for you! :)

Rhi, glad to see you posted your finished "Miranda" here! I'm going to be watching your progress on "Windflowers" with much interest!

Thanks, too, for looking in Dave, Artbabe, and Rosic!

I have a bit of information that I will share about "Boreas" and Waterhouse's painting in general.

I fell in love with this painting the moment that I saw it for the colors (I'm a sucker for blue), the expression on the woman's face, and the way she is holding her hands around her head. The title is a reference to the Greek god of the north wind. There's a bit of information on that on one of those links I gave. Also, the other day I was in the bookstore and found a splendid book on Waterhouse and it talked quite a bit about his painting. (I only wish I had had fifty bucks that I didn't know what to do with! Unfortunately, too, I only had a chance to glance through the book and it happens to be in the "good" bookstore an hour away, so I can't merely go back for a look. :rolleyes: ) In that book, it told a further story of how Boreas was in love with a woman who did not love him in return. I can't recall the exact details of the story, but I believe that he kidnapped her when she was out picking the new spring flowers (you'll notice in this painting there are daffodils--one of the first flowers to bloom in spring--in the grass and one in her hair) as it was his "last day out"--being the northerly wind, he was associated with the winter. A very interesting story to go along with the painting.

Also noted in those links, this painting was lost for about 90 years before it showed up again in a showroom in the mid-90's. I wish I had more information on how it got lost/found, but alas, I haven't a clue. Adds a bit of mystery, at any rate.

There are a few "unfinished" paintings that would indicate how Waterhouse painted. It would seem that he painted in layers, blocking in the major shapes and refining from there. In the aforementioned book, I was fascinated to see a picture of a microscopic flake from one of his paintings. It quite clearly had at least ten layers of paint, not terribly thin, but not terribly thick, either. Also, each layer was quite clearly a different color. Some were fairly close in value/hue, but other layers were different colors entirely! I do know that layering different colors in the same area can have a dramatic effect. The layers can show through and affect subsequent layers even if they are entirely opaque.

Also, this book showed some excellent examples of his brushwork. While many areas were quite refined, there were other areas, such as hands, that were fairly, though not overtly, impasto and suggested by brush strokes. It seemed to me, though I had only a glance through the book, that darker areas were, if not thinner, then at least there was less impasto-like brush strokes that seemed to be used heavily in places in the highlights.

It's late, I can't sleep, and I hope that I've included all the information that I had intended to include here. It's not much, but at least it's something. :)

As for progress with my painting, I have finally gotten to the canvas! ;) I did a few preparatory sketches, one particularly in order to convince myself that I could get at least a *reasonable* likeness of her face. Then I also did a watercolor simply to further aquaint myself with the painting. I've never worked so much before the actual painting, but I'm tired of rushing into things unprepared and not being happy with the results. The more I've done, the more I've found myself noticing details that I normally wouldn't have seen until well into the painting stages, so I believe that it's been time well spent. I think this is a method I will have to employ further with my own paintings. Doing several drawings, sketches, watercolors, whatever, can help iron out composition, detect glaring flaws, etc. (If only I had done this with my race horses painting!!)

I've done the sketch with charcoal onto the canvas by way of a grid because, dang it, I don't want to spend ten or fifteen hours on it trying to get it right and I want it to be right. You can still clearly see the grid; I don't see much reason to spend the time to take it out as it will just be covered with paint.

This image is prior to my rubbing out most of the charcoal as I see no real reason to use a fixative. Some of it will undoubtedly get mixed with my lower paint layer, but, as I'll be employing several layers, I don't much care.

As far as I could tell, though I'm uncertain of how reliable the sources I found were, the original is 24x33 inches. I was pleased that I happened to have a 24x30 canvas so I merely shaved two inches off of the original on the top and one inch on the bottom.

We'll see soon how well I do with the painting part. ;) I believe, though I can't say I've done a LOT of copies of masters, that I find this to be "easier" than my own work (at least judging by how happy I am with the result) because I can *see* the end product in front of me by way of the original while with my *own* paintings, I'm rather uncertain of how it should end up looking. It might be a simple matter if I was going for total photorealism, but I'm not. So I'm stuck with my own imagination. :) I *definitely* advoate copying masters' works for anyone. I think it helps me to see what I need to see.

~!Carey

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Sep-2004/32203-Boreas_sketch_sm.jpg

Biki
09-15-2004, 05:16 AM
A lovely, refreshing, & interesting post Carey.

- a cupla comments & questions:

What is the name of the Waterhouse book you saw.?

i am a sucker for blue too. :wave:

regarding gridding:
what i have come up with lately, is doing a rough grid on paper - then transferring the outline only onto the canvas to get the shapes in place.
Then, the second time around, I do SO much better with the drawing on the canvas & train my eyes to 'see' in the process.
This way, I feel i am bothe saving time, and doing a real drawing to boot. :)

and finally - this is such a beautiful, romantic painting - i envy you your courage to attempt it.
Looking good so far, girl. GO.!! :music:

Carey Griffel
09-15-2004, 11:21 AM
Thanks, Biki!

I *believe* that the book was simply called "J. W. Waterhouse"--unfortunately, I didn't pay attention to the author. :rolleyes: It was a thick hardcover that I'll hopefully look at again sometime. It *might* be in the local bookstore, but they seem to have more coffee than books, so I really don't know. :) It was really an awesome book.

I thought of one thing I forgot to mention. In the book, it had a photograph of Waterhouse working. Of course, it was black and white and hard to tell much of anything, but it said that he was working on one of the Lady of Shallots...it *seemed* to me that he had only started to suggest the background, but the face of the woman was fairly developed. I'm not sure exactly what that means, really, if he developed the focal point before the rest of the painting of if, in fact, he put more work into that initially or...what? I believe that I read that he painted some layers wet into wet and I'm sure that his technique varied at leat a bit in different paintings.

I don't do much of a "real" drawing on the canvas, at any rate, as you can roughly see with my sketch. It's far from perfect and I can see a lot that I could correct, but the basic shapes are in the right place and, as they will just be covered with paint, I don't see much reason to fuss with it any more. The important thing, as I've epecially found with my race horses painting, is to get the general outline/placement right. The details will come later. You see, I literally spent ten hours on the sketch of the race horses and I still found that they were off by a good margin! Mistakes like that are worth avoiding in a painting if there is a simpler, easier way to get my drawing down. I feel that I shouldn't have to be bogged down by drawing when working on a *painting*--if I want to further my drawing skills, I'm much better off doing a lot of actual *drawing*, if you know what I mean. ;)

Finally, thanks ever so much for your encouragement, Biki! I have to say that you've brightened my spirits this morning...after not sleeping well last night and waking up to workers banging around in the apartment above me and seeing that the cats have dug out half the dirt of one of my large plants, well, I needed it. :wink2:

~!Carey

WV.Artistry
09-15-2004, 02:28 PM
Some of my favorite people are in this thread :)

Here's my contribution.

Gamblin Portland Grey Dark + WN Raw Sienna = Faux Green/Grey Med
Gamblin Portland Grey Med + WN Raw Sienna = Faux Green/Grey Light

Grey/green tones are in many of his paintings. Once I saw them peeking through the cracks, it opened my eyes to how he might've acccomplished some of his layering.

I'm still kicking tires, but I'd like to play in this thread too . .

Carey Griffel
09-15-2004, 03:03 PM
Richard, glad to see you here. ;) Thanks for that suggestion--definitely something to think about, perhaps especially in my selected painting looking at the colors. I'm not sure I would have thought about this if you hadn't mentioned it, so thanks ever so much!!

I'm really quite excited about this...I hope that it goes well for me. One benefit to painting in layers like this is that one doesn't have to worry about how one layer will look if it is slightly (or light years) off as there are always subsequent layers to work with.

~!Carey

WV.Artistry
09-15-2004, 08:00 PM
I'm going with Narcissus

24"x36"

Good luck to us :)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Sep-2004/48784-Narcissus_JW_37x24_ul.jpg

DLGardner
09-16-2004, 12:42 AM
Oh! I would love to do one of these. Oh!!!

I can't make up my mind.

Dianne

RhiannonJ
09-16-2004, 02:59 PM
Wow! This thread is really picking up the pace!! Carey, great sketch! Interesting to see you working with grids.

The book that Carey is referring to is the one I purchased recently. It's called J. W. Waterhouse and it's by Peter Trippi. I got mine on Amazon and paid $35 for it.

This definitely has been the week from hell... beginning with Gracie passing away and then yesterday I developed some kind of intestinal flu... NO fun!! I still have pains in my stomach... but I did manage to finish my sketch of the lady in "Windflowers". I was going to take some photos and post them but the battery in my camera ran outta juice so I'll try and post it either later today or tomorrow.

Carey, did you notice that the "Windflowers" and "Boreas" in that book are back to back? Windflowers is on page 183 and Boreas is on page 184. If you look closely you'll notice they're the same woman.

Richard, good to see you here, m'dear! Nice choice. Can't wait to see what you do with it.

C'mon Dianne... join us! It'll be fun!

Rhi

P.S. I'm doing Windflowers on 18x24 linen canvas.

WV.Artistry
09-16-2004, 04:31 PM
Richard, good to see you here, m'dear! Nice choice. Can't wait to see what you do with it.


At the moment, I'm going look at Narcissus a very long time (and learn how to spell it), wondering how in the heck he did that.

Then I'm going to have as much fun as possible and not worry about it, and hopefully learn a few things that I need to know about "Naturalism". The palette, brushstrokes, and procedure will be where my thoughts are at.

Personally speaking, these three graces of Waterhouse overlap into that arena of "Naturalism", and I'm a big fan of Jules Bastien-LePage (France 1848-1884), who did one of my favorite paintings: Saison d'Octobre: Récolte des pommes de terre (October: Gathering Potatoes)

http://artrenewal.org/images/artists/b/Bastien_Lepage_Jules/large/Bastien_Lepage_Saison_d-Octobre_Recolte_des_pommes_de_terre.jpg

My rough outline is:
* Find a sidewalk cafe, a waitress, and do some preliminary sketches of hands, feet, face over the next few days.
* Experiment with oil color mixes, mediums, and brushstrokes (i.e., I have no idea what color that red(pink) dress is, possibly a mixed/lightened salmon of Venetian Red, but . . I haven't a clue at the moment). Work on some additional green/grey and browns, etc., hues for buildup. And leave a note to my mom just in case I blow up my house mixing mediums.
* Make some notes (sticky pad: Don't blow up the house!).
* Decide whether I need a a preliminary watercolor.
* Paint the oil (knowing what I'm going to paint in advance, in what layer, etc.)

Looking forward to the conversation with Master Waterhouse. It seems long overdue :)

WV.Artistry
09-16-2004, 04:42 PM
Let me edit that garbly gook . .

To me, it's as if he's painting an idealistic landscape in a plein air style -- and if I can learn that, then maybe I can learn naturalism.

RhiannonJ
09-16-2004, 05:08 PM
Whew! Richard... I'm exhausted just looking over your "to do" list. :D I guess I may never be a "real" artist.. least in this lifetime. I just don't have the patience to mess around with mediums, mixing palettes (can't afford to do that anyways), etc. I've just always been one of those people that just gets to it. No mickey-mousing around for this lady. :D

Had to laugh about you leaving your Mom a note just in case you blow up the house! And I can just picture you now sitting at a cafe, sipping on your fifth cuppa coffee and eyeing some lovely ladies feet. Better watch yerself... ya never know what she may be armed with! :eek:

Anyways, here's my beginning sketch of "Windflowers". Still lots more work to do on it. After that I'll begin my underpainting.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Sep-2004/32418-windflowers_sketch01.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Sep-2004/32418-windflowers_sketch01-cu.jpg

Rhi

dcorc
09-16-2004, 07:09 PM
Exciting times indeed on this thread - it's good to see you productive, Rhi, with the awful, upsetting week you've had.

I'd like to really go for broke with this one and do "Hylas and the Nymphs (http://www.artrenewal.com/images/artists/w/Waterhouse_John_William/large/Hylas_and_the_Nymphs.jpg)" - it may not be started for a little while though - I think I need to organise a day-trip to Manchester to see it, for starters. I'm also wondering just how big one should attempt it - and if I do it big (eg full-size 38.58 x 64.17 inches / 98 x 163 cm :eek: ) what on earth am I going to do with the painting afterwards? Nonetheless, I'm very tempted.

Dave

DLGardner
09-16-2004, 08:19 PM
I'd like to really go for broke with this one and do "Hylas and the Nymphs" - it may not be started for a little while though - I think I need to organise a day-trip to Manchester to see it, for starters. I'm also wondering just how big one should attempt it - and if I do it big (eg full-size 38.58 x 64.17 inches / 98 x 163 cm ) what on earth am I going to do with the painting afterwards? Nonetheless, I'm very tempted.
Oh this painting befits you Dave! :angel:

So where is there a good website with his paintings? I have no books, no art museums, no originals to look at. I suppose I could do a google search but I was hoping perhaps one of you have a ready made link for me.
?

Dianne

dcorc
09-16-2004, 08:28 PM
Best sets of general links, Dianne, are the ones Carey posted at the start of the thread - artrenewal, and the two dedicated sites.

Others are the Tate Gallery http://www.tate.org.uk and Manchester Art Gallery http://www.manchestergalleries.org/html/mag/mag_fine.html - which has an extensive 19thC collection.

Dave

RhiannonJ
09-16-2004, 09:19 PM
Exciting times indeed on this thread - it's good to see you productive, Rhi, with the awful, upsetting week you've had.
Dave

Thanks Dave. I was sick all day Wednesday and when I WAS able to get up off of the couch I had just the beginning of her face sketched. (I'm gonna have to name that woman though she's the same one in Waterhouse's Boreas). Began feeling better a bit today and well... guess I just got on a roll. I'm not sure yet as to how far I'll take this sketch. I'm still not pleased with certain parts of her but minor adjustments can be made later. Her right hand, for instance, seems odd and I've worked on it since this post, but I think those kinds of things can easily be addressed when I start the actual painting.

Info regarding THE Waterhouse book by Peter Trippi, see this link (http://www.19thc-artworldwide.org/autumn_03/reviews/hold.html) , it can be purchased at Amazon for $35.

And you're gonna try and tackle "Hylas and the Nymphs"? Whoo!!! What an understaking! Aren't you the brave one!.. though you do have an unfair advantage being that you can go up to Manchester and make notes and actually SEE this painting! :evil: :D

Rhi

Carey Griffel
09-17-2004, 01:04 AM
Oh, GUYS! I'm sooo excited to see you all involved! This is so much fun. It's interesting seeing everyone's individual choices.

Richard, I love your selection and I'm sure yours will turn out splendidly! You really make me laugh, by the way. ;) Hope your stint with the waitresses goes well. :wink2: You certainly provide a lot for *me* to think about, as well. I began the official painting today, though just barely, and I have decided that I officially do not know what I'm doing. I think that I, too, will have to do a bit more thinking on this...

Rhi, I think your sketch is gorgeous! Is it charcoal? It seems an odd color. I like it.

I'm going to have to check and see if that book really was the same as yours; like I said, I didn't look at it for long, but as I recall, you said that yours has really awesome large pictures. I could be wrong, but I don't *think* that this book had great pictures...not large, anyways. It had a lot of text. And, of course, I don't remember the cover. :rolleyes: This is really gonna bother me until I find out!! Thanks for that additional link and the heads up for Amazon!

Dave the Daring! Oh, we are all so jealous that you have such access! That would truly be a fun one to attempt...ah, there are so many and we have only one lifetime apiece!

Dianne, I hope that you can find one and jump on in feet first like the rest of us! :D

~!Carey

RhiannonJ
09-17-2004, 01:18 PM
Rhi, I think your sketch is gorgeous! Is it charcoal? It seems an odd color. I like it.

I'm going to have to check and see if that book really was the same as yours; like I said, I didn't look at it for long, but as I recall, you said that yours has really awesome large pictures. I could be wrong, but I don't *think* that this book had great pictures...not large, anyways. It had a lot of text. And, of course, I don't remember the cover. :rolleyes: This is really gonna bother me until I find out!! Thanks for that additional link and the heads up for Amazon!

~!Carey

Carey, thanks for the comments. It's coming along pretty good. I'm using these crayon pastels by Conte and the colour I used is Bistre. You can get them at Dick Blick's (http://www.dickblick.com/zz202/01/products.asp?param=0&ig_id=1249). Richard told me about them and I really like the way they handle.

Maybe you're looking at a different book on Waterhouse then because the one I have is about 200 plus pages and has LOTS of great pictures, not all of them are large though, and lots of text. An image of the painting Ophelia is on the cover. It's about 12x14 and I'd say 1" thick.

Looking forward to seeing your update! I'll be nervous too when I get to painting. :p

Rhi

WV.Artistry
09-17-2004, 03:16 PM
Richard told me about them and I really like the way they handle.

Rhi

Rhi, I learned to use them from Master Waterhouse . . and it seems an appropriate forward. I can only echo my thanks across time for helping me overcome my greatest stumbling block (the brain).

Speaking of the devil, my brain woke me early in the a.m., and I began to sketch the canvas. It decided, the only way for me to loosen up enough for this -- is to not be entirely conscious.

Currently, the figure resembles a four-armed Caribbean woman planting flowers where continental plates collide (obviously, I'm not posting it yet). I told the brain, "I've got be able to paint this -- so leave it at that interpretation, and go no further!"

After editing the sketch, I'll bathe the canvas with Burnt Sienna.

Note: My canvas selection of 24"x36" was an error. Should've been about 24"x40". Mine lops about 3" at bottom, 1" at top.

RhiannonJ
09-17-2004, 03:58 PM
Rhi, I learned to use them from Master Waterhouse . . and it seems an appropriate forward. I can only echo my thanks across time for helping me overcome my greatest stumbling block (the brain).

Speaking of the devil, my brain woke me early in the a.m., and I began to sketch the canvas. It decided, the only way for me to loosen up enough for this -- is to not be entirely conscious.

Currently, the figure resembles a four-armed Caribbean woman planting flowers where continental plates collide (obviously, I'm not posting it yet). I told the brain, "I've got be able to paint this -- so leave it at that interpretation, and go no further!"

After editing the sketch, I'll bathe the canvas with Burnt Sienna.

Note: My canvas selection of 24"x36" was an error. Should've been about 24"x40". Mine lops about 3" at bottom, 1" at top.

Richard, just how did you learn to use them from Waterhouse? I'm curious to know. :D And how the heck do you sharpen these suckers. :confused:

Geez, but you always make me laugh when I need a good chuckle! A four-armed Caribbean woman planting flowers?!! Can't WAIT to see it!

Okay, question, why do you bath the canvas in burnt sienna AFTER you do the sketch? I toned my canvas first. Seems to me that would be the way to go unless you wanna smear your sketch. :D

Nice large canvas. I don't have room for one that size so I just stuck with an 18x24. Have a spot already picked out for it.

I've got my sketch just about completed. I'll post it later today or tomorrow. Then I'll spray it with some affixative and get started on my underpainting when I get up my nerve. Then should I just block in colours? Do I need the underpainting? If so, should I go with that greyish/greenish hue? What do you suggest, m'dear? I do so value your opinions. ;)
Rhi

Carey Griffel
09-17-2004, 05:54 PM
Rhi, wondered if that's what you used! I have a set myself, but have not used them much. I've meant to try them out for my prelim sketch on something, but keep forgetting. :) The only thing is...I use charcoal now as it's so easy to erase. The Conte are quite a bit harder--do you find that to be a problem?

I always wish I toned my canvases...but by the time I'm ready to tone them with what I want, I just want to get on with the painting! What color did you use to tone yours, Rhi? Maybe I ought to just chose a color to tone everything and then do it while they're sitting around waiting...which is usually a long time for me as I get the impulse to buy canvases all the time. :D

Richard, you sketch sounds like a doozy! :D Looking forward to seeing it.

I tried to work some more on my painting today, but kept getting sidetracked. Just wasn't my day to settle down to anything more than playing around, I guess. I keep thinking I'll "do more later", but then that never seems to happen when the weekend comes around.

I'm not sure what I'm doing is right or for the best, but spent a little time looking closely at the "Maidens Picking Flowers (study)" from the ARC site. It seems that all of the major shapes are blocked in losely with thinned paint. Harder to tell when you look at the woman in the foreground, though it *seems* that there is a reddish underpainting there...but I get the impression that it wasn't a full monochrome-type-thing...

That's not to say that Waterhouse did his other paintings this way, really, but I feel at a loss and so I'm just doing what I can...so, I'm blocking in the shapes with color. I frankly don't understand how people can use paint thinned with turps or oms in this stage...I've done it myself a lot and, try as I might, I can *never* just thin the paint to what I want it to be. I dip my brush in the oms and dry it off and then stick it in the paint. Try as I might, if I get *any* oms on my brush, it thins the paint waaaay too much in my opinion. And once that paint has touched the canvas, I can't seem to do anything else with it. I *don't* understand how anyone can actually use it to clean their brushes...

But that's neither here nor there, really. I could easily do without it and probably should. I don't use much medium of any type at any rate; it doesn't ever seem to do anything for me, though it *is* nice to have my paint thinned a bit for the first layer... Part of my problem is that my first application of color is so lacking in paint in the first place that any amount of oms will dilute it like crazy.

Hmm... now I feel as though I'm rambling. My point was that I'm not sure if I'm going to like this first layer or not, but there are always other layers. Oh, also, Rhi, I wanted to say that he could conceivably use gray/green layers without it having to be a full monotone underpainting. It seems to me that he didn't work that way, though I could very well be wrong on that. Blocking in with the general color at first does not mean that subsequent layers are not very different in color. If that makes any sense. For instance, I'm blocking in with the general color, but I intend further layers to be quite a bit different from each other...that is, if I'm successful in what I'm envisioning.

I wish I had a concrete plan for this, but I don't. I'm just going to be winging it like most of us, I suspect. ;) However, already I'm learning things. I have a *nasty* tendency to mix all of my colors *on* the canvas. This leads to massive blending, as you might imagine. I'm seeing that tendency in my blocking in stage and trying to go against it. But I'm finding it difficult. Very difficult. I may need to do some practicing on another canvas, I don't know.

~!Carey

WV.Artistry
09-17-2004, 08:19 PM
Carey, Rhiannon . . here's m thoughts, use what you can.

I'm going to tone, wash, scrub, bathe . . . (use a word) my sketch in Burnt Sienna, because throughout the painting, I see Burnt Sienna peeking through the cracks . . . it's everywhere. I won't just be "toning" the canvas -- but more of a monochrome oil sketch, and I'll get my lights and darks by thinning the paint with turpentine or painting it thick from the tube.

And yes, I'm destroying the charcoal sketch as I do this. But I'm doing it meticulously. It's more like a metamorphasis into something that I don't know what to call except an oil sketch.

On top of that is where I'll begin to lay a foundation painting, an under-painting, etc., with umbers, the green-greys, etc.

I agree with you Carey.

-- the under-painting might be approached in piecemeal here, and not apply everywhere, i.e., the sky . . some of which can be accomplished by a turp wash of Raw Sienna, wetting in Naples Yellow, then White . . done.

It's still the same practice, but a shortcut approach.

On top of that green/grey/brown underpainting is where I'll paint the drapery . . and, purposely make places to show through to the foundation layers. Instead of painting a line with the drapery, I can "not" paint a line, and it be what I previously painted . . .

On top of this bulk . . is the tweaks and edits, drybrushing and glazing, dirt . . bugs . . dust, and anything else that you want to include in the finish.

I think layering techniques create interesting visual anomalies, and take advantage of the translucent qualities/characteristics of oils -- and that's why I do it.

Here's examples using Windflowers, but it's exactly the same techniques I'm looking at with Narcissus, and Boreas.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Sep-2004/48784-W1_Discuss.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Sep-2004/48784-W2_Discuss.jpg

Have a great weekendl.

DLGardner
09-17-2004, 10:05 PM
I chose one, now to find time to do it.

I have a list a mile long of "to-do" painting.

But I think this one will fit in with both the themes I have for my upcoming shows.

I love the realistic look here. She grabs me!
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Sep-2004/8002-waterhouse.jpg

Dianne

Biki
09-18-2004, 04:36 AM
i sure do love listening to you guys rattle on. :)

wish i was joining you right now - never the less, i am having fun playing on my own. :D

but i'm watching. :wave:

WV.Artistry
09-18-2004, 12:42 PM
rough sketch.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2004/48784-Sketch_6.jpg

Carey Griffel
09-18-2004, 12:47 PM
Dianne, excellent choice!! It will be fun having you here. :)

Biki, glad to have some onlookers. ;)

Richard, thanks for those ideas. It's a help to see how others percieve this. And your sketch is great! Hard to tell...is that the "oil sketch"?

~!Carey

WV.Artistry
09-18-2004, 01:21 PM
Richard, thanks for those ideas. It's a help to see how others percieve this. And your sketch is great! Hard to tell...is that the "oil sketch"?

~!Carey

Carey

Here's the Recipe' : Soft Charcoal, Carres, and White Chalk . . add lots of eraser, let simmer, add edits to taste. Wipe with a semi-damp cloth to remove excess dust.

I'll make some edits tonight, and hopefully begin the oil sketch tomorrow.

Michael-Ann
09-18-2004, 09:32 PM
I hope it is okay to say that I have been inspired by Richard (unbeknownst to him:)) to give this work a try. I am hoping that I will learn some valuable skills by attempting this regardless of the outcome. Posted below is a pic of the original, followed by my WIP shots.

Cheers everyone!

"Destiny"

Biki
09-19-2004, 04:17 AM
Carey

Here's the Recipe' : Soft Charcoal, Carres, and White Chalk . . add lots of eraser, let simmer, add edits to taste. Wipe with a semi-damp cloth to remove excess dust.

I'll make some edits tonight, and hopefully begin the oil sketch tomorrow.

wot's an "edit".? :eek:

(btw - check your PMs - i need some advice.)

dcorc
09-19-2004, 08:44 AM
wot's an "edit".? :eek:

It's where you go back afterwards, and change "o" to "ha" :evil: :D

Dave

Mikey
09-19-2004, 01:50 PM
Hi Michael-Ann,

What a challenge. Is that the poisoned chalice? This is coming on nicely for a very complicated painting, with all that detail the Victorians loved so much. Do be careful that eye isn't too big. Do you see how Waterhouse uses the lost and found edges here?

Mikey

WV.Artistry
09-19-2004, 05:25 PM
I hope it is okay to say . . .



Michael-Ann :)

To answer your question, I would've approached "Destiny" the same way I'm approaching "Narcissus", except -- instead of wrapping my initial layer of paint (what I call my oil sketch) around a Burnt Sienna turpentine wash, I would do it around around something like Ultramarine.

Illusion is the end result -- a red silk dress is only what you think, because the conscious mind doesn't see past the transparency. There's probably a blue dress b'neath it <<wink>>

That's my best guess.

WV.Artistry
09-19-2004, 05:31 PM
Dave, I mean Darth . . . that helmut thing, it's so, like you're speaking through scuba gear.

Here's the w/i/p (my oil sketch).

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2004/48784-Waterhouse_Study_A.jpg

Michael-Ann
09-19-2004, 06:36 PM
Hi Richard! Narcissus is looking wonderful, I love the golden light you are working up.

Thank you for the words of wisdom with regard to Destiny. I had to laugh, in my impatience I have jumped right in and am now well beyond the initial blue phase. My biggest mistake that is bothering me at this point is the tilt of her head.

I will not mess with her until next weekend now, it is back to work mode for me.

Whoops! Hey there Mikey! When did you drop in? I am checking her eye :) thank you!

WV.Artistry
09-19-2004, 07:09 PM
Note to Myself re: Palette #1

Burnt Sienna + Turpentine
Scale of 8
1) Naples Yellow
2) Mix 1 + Raw Sienna
3) Burnt Sienna
4) Mix 1 + 3
5) Transparent Earth Orange
6) Mix 1 + 5
7) Aslphaltum
8) Mix 1 + 7

RhiannonJ
09-20-2004, 10:05 AM
Michael-Ann, "Destiny" is coming along great! Richard, your sketch is awesome, as usual. And a peek at the beginning of your oil sketch is helpful. I take it you'll do the entire canvas in burnt sienna? Don't know yet if I'll approach "Windflowers" the same way.. I probably won't, at least not with that heavy of a wash.

Anyways, here's my final sketch. I'll probably get started on some sort of underpainting over the next couple of days.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Sep-2004/32418-windflowers_sketch02.jpg

Rhi

Michael-Ann
09-20-2004, 11:13 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Sep-2004/32418-windflowers_sketch02.jpg

Hi and thank you Rhi! I think your sketch is fantastic, you have really captured that face well! I am excited to see your progression as I think you did an outstanding rendition of "Miranda the Tempest" (I think that is the name :confused:) Cheers!

WV.Artistry
09-20-2004, 04:42 PM
Rhiannon, thanks for the mix . .

Added some greens to the background and lightened the sky a bit while editing the trees. I'll finish the sky when I layer my three purples.

Medium mix for this palette :
1 cap Copal Regular + 1/2 cap clear turp

<< there is no spoon >>

w/i/p Palette #2 (still building)
Scale of 8
1) Raw Umber Greenish Shade (Grumbacker)
2) Davy's Grey + Raw Sienna
3) Davy's Grey + Naples Yellow
4) Faux Mix #1
5) Faux Mix #2
6) Adobe Medium
7) Adobe Light
8) * undecided . . *

4) through 7) were only used for flesh, but will probably be miscellaneously scattered.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Sep-2004/48784-Waterhouse_Study_B.jpg

WV.Artistry
09-20-2004, 05:02 PM
A detail . . use what you can.

I'm making every attempt to "not blend", but approaching the brushstrokes like a palet knife, and building the paint. Palette #1 was the cheapest/stiffest brushes I could find (I think they're made by a lumber company), and Palette #2 brushes are Princeton (they're very stiff).

Now I'll start building my Palette #3 of Ochres, which will lighten up the background considerably, and darken the flesh.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Sep-2004/48784-Waterhouse_Study_B_Detail.jpg

WV.Artistry
09-20-2004, 09:06 PM
3 Purple Mix : Burnt Umber + Paynes Grey + Indian Red

1) Initial Mix
2) Take half that and mix it with a little white
3) Take half of that and mix it with a little white

Tweak and you've got 3 purple hues to work with.

I mostly use it hidden in flesh edits, scattering in landscape shadows, etc., but in this case, I'll use it visibly in the mountains and cloth.

TeAnne
09-20-2004, 09:47 PM
Can I join in the DAD please? I rather fancy doing this one.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Sep-2004/1887-jwwaterhouse1.jpg
And can we do Rossetti next? :D

A Few Pigments
09-21-2004, 02:22 AM
Don’t say Rossetti…I couldn’t resist doing a Rossetti. :)

Jaysen
09-22-2004, 10:24 AM
Has anyone else noticed Waterhouse's fascination with feet? Just look at the size of some of his models' feet, they're huge! It's almost like they were hobbit women.

I wish I had time to do a Waterhouse.... maybe when I'm finished with my Frans Hals, I'll do Waterhouse next.

RhiannonJ
09-22-2004, 10:45 AM
Here's an update of my "Windflowers". Just blocking in colour. I'm really winging it with this one. I usually don't paint in layers like this so it'll be interesting to see how this one turns out.

Palette:

Raw Sienna
Burnt Sienna
Raw Umber
Davy's Gray
Sap Green
Terre Verte
Ultramarine Blue
Venetian Red

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Sep-2004/32418-windflowers_underpainting.jpg

Rhi

WV.Artistry
09-22-2004, 03:20 PM
Has anyone else noticed Waterhouse's fascination with feet? Just look at the size of some of his models' feet, they're huge! It's almost like they were hobbit women.

I wish I had time to do a Waterhouse.... maybe when I'm finished with my Frans Hals, I'll do Waterhouse next.

Yeah :)

In my w/i/p, along with the feet, I'm attempting to deal with a probility, that the pose may not be humanly possible.

Master Waterhouse . . . What monster is this? And why is she so beautiful?

WV.Artistry
09-22-2004, 03:23 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Sep-2004/48784-Waterhouse_Study_C.jpg

Mikey
09-22-2004, 05:31 PM
Hey Michael-Ann, and the chin etc. You have it sort of two dimensional profile, whilst her head is turned slightly to her left.

guillot
09-23-2004, 01:52 PM
These are all really coming along wonderfully - been watching for awhile - and wishing I had the time :p

Beautiful work everyone!!
Tina

WV.Artistry
09-23-2004, 04:33 PM
w/i/p

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Sep-2004/48784-Waterhouse_Study_D.jpg

Michael-Ann
09-23-2004, 04:46 PM
Richard she is beautiful! You have to think so yourself! You have lightened up the image quite a bit, the sky is fantastic, and her dress is coming along wonderfully too. I like very much the violet that in the branches just beneath the bulk of the foliage in the trees...does that make sense?

RhiannonJ
09-23-2004, 05:22 PM
Richard,

Great job! Love the light. All of your paintings seem to have that "umber" glow to them. Man, do you ever paint fast! You'll probably be finished by weeks end and I'll just be getting to "Windy's" dress. I couldn't paint that quickly even if I didn't have a full-time job. :D

Got to work on "Windy" a bit more yesterday and today. Just beginning to add details and will keep building. Thought I'd give her a face today. :D Decided on her having blue/gray eyes. Still lots more to do on her face but at least the basics are there. I need to darken up the shadows under her jaw line but overall am pleased with her. Not too shabby for only my second attempt at painting a face. :D I'll probably work more on her hair tomorrow and more on the background surrounding her. Can't WAIT to get to her dress!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Sep-2004/32418-windflowers_details01.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Sep-2004/32418-windflowers_details01.-face.jpg

Rhi

WV.Artistry
09-23-2004, 06:13 PM
. . . I like very much the violet that in the branches just beneath the bulk of the foliage in the trees...does that make sense?
I can only take credit for the failures -- those hues are in the original.

In another area, I think he was working on the cloth, and then walked across the room and threw the brush at the painting. It was a larger brush, probably a flat, impacting 3/4 the way up between the the stream and the hill top. Either that, or it's Pterosaur poopie -- because I can only say, "What is this #@%$!".

The technical details of his clothwork are so subtle, and so fused, that it's simply beyond my understanding at this time how he did it.

OT: Whether it's relevant or not to this painting, I don't know, but I can tell you from personal experience, the Rhinoceros is very friendly if you scratch their back. And if I can remember that Rhinoceros from time to time, do you think also, that Rhinoceros sometimes wonders about the boy who scratched its back? If there's any relevancy, that's what I was thinking about this last session . . . this is one big pile of #@%$!




. . . Man, do you ever paint fast!
Rhi
I'm not always awake when I paint. That way, I care less, and paint more. I try to avoid painting in the afternoon.

Good luck with the experiment. You're off to a good start :)

p.s. if you don't mind me asking, how did you get that mountain color?

Michael-Ann
09-23-2004, 06:26 PM
I can only take credit for the failures -- those hues are in the original.Vous les avez reproduits expert alors


In another area, I think he was working on the cloth, and then walked across the room and threw the brush at the painting. It was a larger brush, probably a flat, impacting 3/4 the way up between the the stream and the hill top. Either that, or it's Pterosaur poopie -- because I can only say, "What is this #@%$!".Where?!! I cannot see it?


The technical details of his clothwork are so subtle, and so fused, that it's simply beyond my understanding at this time how he did it.You are doing it though, can't you see?


OT: Whether it's relevant or not to this painting, I don't know, but I can tell you from personal experience, the Rhinoceros is very friendly if you scratch their back. And if I can remember that Rhinoceros from time to time, do you think also, that Rhinoceros sometimes wonders about the boy who scratched its back?Ceci devient une belle peinture et le rhino ne se concerne probablement jamais par des sujets de qui fournit l'éraflure.


. . .If there's any relevancy, that's what I was thinking about this last session . . . this is one big pile of #@%$!Je regarde est beaucoup différent mon ami!

So how is my google french?? ;)

Michael-Ann
09-23-2004, 06:29 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Sep-2004/32418-windflowers_details01.-face.jpg

Rhi I love her face... 2nd?!!! <---can you feel my disbelief??! Wow!
Your brush strokes show confidence, fantastic!

RhiannonJ
09-23-2004, 07:38 PM
I'm not always awake when I paint. That way, I care less, and paint more. I try to avoid painting in the afternoon.

Good luck with the experiment. You're off to a good start :)

p.s. if you don't mind me asking, how did you get that mountain color?

That mountain colour is ultramarine blue, paynes grey, diox purple, vermillion red and titanium white. The top is mostly paynes grey and ultramarine with a tad of titanium. At the base I just loaded my brush with bits of white, purple, ultramarine and just had at it. Looks like in Windflowers he added in bits of the sky afterwords so I'll carry that through a bit more.

Rhi

RhiannonJ
09-23-2004, 07:42 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Sep-2004/32418-windflowers_details01.-face.jpg

Rhi I love her face... 2nd?!!! <---can you feel my disbelief??! Wow!
Your brush strokes show confidence, fantastic!

Thanks Michael-Ann. It's a bit easier working with a larger area. Miranda drove me nuts because her face was so small. I think I'm going to perhaps lower her eyebrow a tad and just loosen it up a bit. I worked on her lips a bit more after I posted this latest and added more shadow to her jaw line so think I'll let her face be for awhile and focus on her hair and surrounding background tomorrow.

I think this one's gonna take awhile, but hey, I'm in no hurry! :D

Rhi

RhiannonJ
09-23-2004, 07:44 PM
Yo, Richard...

How'd you come by that shade of purple for her shawl? I tried your mix of Burnt Umber, Payne's Grey, and Indian Red but it wasn't anywhere close as to what I'm looking for for her underdress. I want a mauvy purplish hue... different colour than that large ref pic we've been looking at. The image in the book I have is the perfect colour and your purple seems to be real close.

Rhi

WV.Artistry
09-23-2004, 08:55 PM
Yo, Richard...

How'd you come by that shade of purple for her shawl? I tried your mix of Burnt Umber, Payne's Grey, and Indian Red but it wasn't anywhere close as to what I'm looking for for her underdress. I want a mauvy purplish hue... different colour than that large ref pic we've been looking at. The image in the book I have is the perfect colour and your purple seems to be real close.

Rhi

It's the three purple mix, but I think I added too much Burnt Umber (I wasn't awake when I mixed it).

At first lightly, I used Payne's Grey to give the shadows blue, and threw in some of the dress paint for the highlights. Once the definitions were established, I then painted aggressively, stiff brush, like painting a barn with a putty knife, attempting to "not" blend. I used WN Flake White to mix the purple, which is a bit thick, and not bright.

I almost said "my dress" but that would be a Freudian slip, so "the dress" is basically different values of Venetian Red and Indian Red. I know -- it's not correct, but I said at the beginning, I don't know what that color is . . . maybe some Red Ochre, or possibly crappy rust scraped off an old tool and mixed with linseed oil and white.

The scarf, my scarf, and to hell with Freud, is also (I'm sure) picking up dress color from the turpentine jar, which is currently some color only appreciated in hell.

Asphaltum is the shadow under her hand, and the outside transition color from scarf to background. Asphaltum has a brownish/purplish color to it . . . thick, it's deep and looks brown, but thin and translucent it shows it's purple.

I learned about Asphaltum from William Whittaker . . . and Mr. Gamblin sent me a letter explaining why he created it (if you want to read it). It's a powerful workhorse of color, right up there with Raw Sienna. To each their own, but the paint seemed to like me from the get-go.

http://www.williamwhitaker.com/

Hope some of that spew helps.

Thanks for the mix. I've never owned a purple.

RhiannonJ
09-23-2004, 09:16 PM
Richard,

Thanks for the info. Guess I'll just "wing it" again and try different mixes until I get what I'm after. I'll make sure I post the concoction when I come up with. :D

Been wondering what's going on with Carey. She hasn't posted for awhile. Hope everything is okay on her end.

Rhi

WV.Artistry
09-25-2004, 02:50 PM
I'm about to be interrupted by a C3 hurricane, ugh! Posting the w/i/p while I still have access.

Have a great weekend.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Sep-2004/48784-Waterhouse_Study_E.jpg

Michael-Ann
09-25-2004, 07:59 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Sep-2004/48784-Waterhouse_Study_E.jpg

This is beautiful!

Jaysen
09-25-2004, 10:10 PM
You all are having way too much fun here. I think I'll have to try one when I get some time.

Carey Griffel
09-26-2004, 12:40 AM
Ack! So much has been going on here this week and unfortunately I haven't kept up! I am in total awe of the beautiful work and I'm just so excited to see everyone here. ;) I've gotten some work done on mine, but I need a decent photo to post, which I ought to do by tomorrow or Monday at the lastest--and I'll comment more for each of you here then, too!

In the meantime, keep up the awesome work! ;)

~!Carey

WV.Artistry
09-27-2004, 09:02 AM
Here's a PDF on John Singer Sargent I enjoyed reading. It's 9 pages, a bit slow to load. But some of it can be used for thinking about Waterhouse (I did, anyway).

http://www.goodbrush.com/misc/painting_lessons/sargent.pdf

RhiannonJ
09-27-2004, 04:38 PM
Thought I'd post an update. Her dress is going to take awhile to do. I'm using the photo in the book I have as reference for this part of it. I like the deeper purple better and feel it's probably closer to the original. At the end I'll glaze over it with a purplish/brownish colour to deepen it somewhat and enrich it. Least that's my plan as of now.

This whole painting is going to take me quite some time. Still have lots to do yet on the background... I've barely touched it other than doing a bit of detailing at the top. No hurry. I'm having a lot of fun with this one and am in no rush to finish it.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Sep-2004/32418-windflowers_details02.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Sep-2004/32418-windflowers_details02-cu.jpg

Rhi

WV.Artistry
09-27-2004, 05:21 PM
. . . This whole painting is going to take me quite some time. Still have lots to do yet on the background
Rhi

Princess Fiona exlaimed, "You didn't slay the dragon!?"
Shrek replied, "It's on my to do list."

One of the artifacts I use for dragon slaying is a potter's tool, the equivalent of a little wooden handle with a sharp nail. Helps with the minute' details, i.e., mountains, to bring out the highlights and shadows that I'm too clumsy to brush. Eyes, etc., but a toothpick might work just as well.

I don't envy your challenge :) It's a great start Rhiannon.

RhiannonJ
09-27-2004, 05:44 PM
So Richard, how did you fair through JeAnn? Geez oh whiz... you guys must be exhausted and really frustrated by now! (understatement I'm sure).

How's your painting coming along? Have you been able to work much on it these last few days?

Rhi

WV.Artistry
09-27-2004, 06:32 PM
So Richard, how did you fair through JeAnn? Geez oh whiz... you guys must be exhausted and really frustrated by now! (understatement I'm sure).

How's your painting coming along? Have you been able to work much on it these last few days?

Rhi

Power is still out at my house, the Saint John's River is overflowing (which means . . . we're super-saturated and at flood status). Most of the area drains into the Saint John's, so if we take even a tropical storm or wet front, we go under.

It's just that simple.

Might take you up on the coffee with that event ;)

Picked up my painting from storage today and looked at it -- that's about as far as I've got.

RhiannonJ
09-27-2004, 06:50 PM
Power is still out at my house, the Saint John's River is overflowing (which means . . . we're super-saturated and at flood status). Most of the area drains into the Saint John's, so if we take even a tropical storm or wet front, we go under.

It's just that simple.

Might take you up on the coffee with that event ;)

Picked up my painting from storage today and looked at it -- that's about as far as I've got.

Got coffee... got milk... got sugah... got house in tact. Think we're ready to go! <hehe> :wave:

Rhi

guillot
09-27-2004, 11:12 PM
I'm about to be interrupted by a C3 hurricane, ugh! Posting the w/i/p while I still have access.

Have a great weekend.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Sep-2004/48784-Waterhouse_Study_E.jpg


Hope all is well with you.

This is GORGEOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stunning piece, and lovely colors.

Tina

Carey Griffel
09-28-2004, 12:18 PM
Man o man o man o man...I've gotta say, Richard, yours is just blowing my mind, it's so gorgeous! I mean to say...I *really* like it!! I'm loving the progression and *thank you* ever so much for the added info, as well. And you have such a unique style that you put into your works, as well, that positively glows! I certainly hope that you are faring well with the water situation!

Rhi, what can I say about yours??--you have a definite gift. I'm glad that you're having fun with this one. ;) My attempts up to now at producing flesh tones have been abysmal...might I ask what colors you have used for yours? I, too, like the deep purple that you are working up. Woohoo! It's awesome. Are you finding that you are approaching this one a lot differently than you usual painting?

Michael-Ann--you've got a good start on yours. Any progression from what you've last shown us?

And everyone else who's chosen a picture--welcome! :) I'm excited to see what comes up!

I'm uncertain about mine...once again, I am faced with the knowledge that if I were to start over, I'd do it differently. :rolleyes: But I think that means I'm learning, so that's good! I'm not entirely happy with my start (and, goodness, it shouldn't have taken me as long as this, but I'm *always* slower than what I'd like or what I expect) and now I'm being slow because I'm deliberating what to do next. (Plus, it would help if I hadn't stepped on my glasses last night. :p ...unfortunately a frequent occurance with me, though never to the extent that I smashed them last night! My vision's not really bad and I could still paint, but...it's annoying. Hopefully I can get my glasses fixed soon.)

I started mixing my paint with a little bit of oms, then halfway through, since I wasn't liking how thin I was getting the paint, I broke down and opened up my bottle of Liquin. I'm not sure how I feel about that, exactly, and I think it's a very odd substance. Some people use it to glaze with, some people use it in their first layers--quite contradictory and I'm not certain it's a wise thing to use. Nonetheless, I used it here. I may continue to use it despite my reservations or I may not. Who knows...but I don't think I'll use any more medium for the rest of it. Again, we shall see.

Now I'm stuck thinking and debating and arguing with myself. I'd like to thank Richard for posting that terrific info on Sargent; I think that will definitely be a help for me. It's given me some things to consider, at any rate.

~!Carey

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Sep-2004/32203-Boreas_start_sm.jpg

WV.Artistry
09-28-2004, 01:55 PM
. . . I am faced with the knowledge that if I were to start over, I'd do it differently. :rolleyes: ~!Carey



Yeah, there are some lotto numbers I'd like to re-choose :) And if I could do it all over again, I wouldn't have become addicted to Bar-B-Que Fritos.

A solution that's working for me is -- paint, and think, as seperate events.

You're off to a good start, and you do beautiful work, so don't worry.

RhiannonJ
09-28-2004, 02:51 PM
Carey,

You're off to a great start! Don't be so hard on yourself, girlfriend. :D I'm winging it right along with you. Actually, I'm wishing I hadn't posted that update yesterday. The weather here has been dismal and it was really dark in the room when I took the photo so it turned out darker than it really is.

The flesh colours I'm using is Titanium White, Yellow Ochre, Raw Sienna, Burnt Sienna, Cad Yellow Light, and sometimes a tad of Vermillion Red. I used a small #6 filbert and just picked up the colours, blended as needed. Once that was tacky then I added shadows and highlights where needed.

I've worked on mine a bit more today but we've got JeAnne coming up the coast and it's pretty dark downstairs so think I'm gonna wait til tomorrow to work on it anymore. I started doing the flowers that she's holding in her dress. Just loaded up my brush with a vast array of colours and it's really turning out cool. :)

Carey, I'm working somewhat different than I usually do. I would probably block in the colour different next time. I do feel that I'm loosening up a bit more and am more focused on my brush strokes. That grassy background is giving me fits so I'm just trying to keep my strokes loose and really load up the paint on my brush... something I RARELY do! Guess I'm stingy with my paint! :D

Rhi

Biki
09-29-2004, 12:19 AM
wow guys - you are having fun aren't you. :clap: :clap:

you are all doing great - and Rich? - once again, exceptional.

looking forward to all your grand finales :wave:

WV.Artistry
09-29-2004, 08:35 AM
Biki, Tina, thanks for looking.

The cross-hatching and other color techniques are mind boggling to me. With every attempt to analyze I feel awestruck at the fusion of brushstrokes and color applications.

Waterhouse bends, and in some cases, breaks the rules, and then uses an attorney to make it all look legal. I've tried to lay a groundwork for shading the grass, but will probably take a wet-on-wet approach to layer the finish.

His clothwork is no less intricate and maze-like.

With his synthesis of styles (including impressionism), it's no wonder he didn't think his paintings should be grouped with the PRB's.

No power yet at my house, but hopefully I'll have it back within the next few days (it's restored 6 blocks away). Some oaks are falling over now because the wet soil doesn't support their roots, and limbs are still falling, loose teeth cracked off.

Jaysen
09-29-2004, 08:53 AM
I've been trying to read through all the posts here and pull out some techniques found to be used. It looks to me like Waterhouse used many different colors, wet on wet, to produce an almost neutral look in many of his colors, with small places where he let one color be pulled out of the mud to produce a highlight here and there.

WV.Artistry
09-29-2004, 09:30 AM
Don't know . . .


Anthraquinoid Red
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Sep-2004/48784-Anthraquinoid_Red_p5249b.jpg

Quinacridone Coral
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Sep-2004/48784-p5589b_Quinacridone_Coral.jpg

Pyrrol Red
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Sep-2004/48784-Pyrrol_Red_p5257b.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Sep-2004/48784-Narcissus_Dress.jpg

artbabe21
09-29-2004, 09:41 AM
Waterhouse bends, and in some cases, breaks the rules, and then uses an attorney to make it all look legal.

LOL! Beautiful job Richard! Carey terrific start! Rhi, coming alone most superbly...aren't you afraid if anything? :)

RhiannonJ
09-29-2004, 09:51 AM
Don't know . . .


Anthraquinoid Red

Quinacridone Coral

Pyrrol Red


Richard, are you making these colour names up? :D I've never heard of them before... much less being able to pronounce them! :eek:

Rhi

RhiannonJ
09-29-2004, 09:52 AM
LOL! Beautiful job Richard! Carey terrific start! Rhi, coming alone most superbly...aren't you afraid if anything? :)

Cath, thanks... but why would I be afraid? It's just paint. :D

Rhi

RhiannonJ
09-29-2004, 03:08 PM
Thought I'd post another update. This painting is really difficult to get good photos of because the background is pretty dark and "Windy" is just plain brilliant. I'm doing my best to keep it as much "Waterhouse-like" as I can because it appears to me that's how most of his women are presented.

Most of what I'm doing is wet-on-wet... just picking up different colours on my brush and carefully applying my strokes.

LONGGG ways to go yet. I almost don't want to work on it TOO much everyday because I can't remember the last time I had this much fun with a painting!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Sep-2004/32418-windflowers_details03.jpg

Rhi

RhiannonJ
09-29-2004, 03:13 PM
Plus a few close ups so you all can see how I'm handling the background, grass, etc. That grass isn't as bright as it appears. I've yet to get a good photo of this painting. It always appears too dark so I lightened it up a bit in Photoshop.

I think in the end I'll go back and lay in some more grassy strokes here in there, but looking closely at how Waterhouse handled his backgrounds it looks like he just took his brush and mushed it around with no real definitive strokes. The guy was either a madman or a genius. :D

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Sep-2004/32418-windflowers_details03-cu1.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Sep-2004/32418-windflowers_details03-cu2.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Sep-2004/32418-windflowers_details03-cu3.jpg

Rhi

Carey Griffel
09-29-2004, 03:43 PM
Thanks, Richard, Rhi, Cathleen, and Biki. I appreciate the support here! I'm still sitting on mine because there are too many people who seem to not want me to paint what with dental appointments and phone calls, etc, etc, so on and so forth. Tomorrow! Tomorrow I will do it!! Uh-oh, now that I've said that officially, I'm afraid that it won't happen! :rolleyes: :)

Rhi, gorgeous! I'm glad that you put in those closeups for us. That's awesome that you're having such fun with this one!

Today I will do the thinking and tomorrow I will do the painting. ;)

~!Carey

RhiannonJ
09-29-2004, 05:05 PM
Hey guys, I was doing (yet another search) for Waterhouse and came across this link to eBay. Apparently there's a place over in the UK called The Kings Treasury doing replicas of not only Waterhouse, but other period masterpieces as well.

VERY interesting. Click here (http://stores.ebay.com/THE-KINGS-TREASURY_Pre-Raphaelites_W0QQcolZ2QQdirZQ2d1QQsclZallQQsotimedisplayZ2QQtZkm) to check it out. "Windflowers" is there, so is "Destiny" and "Narcissus".

Been messing around with "Windy" some more. I wasn't pleased with her pouty little lips so I changed them a tad. I feel like I need a flashlight to lay down just a pixel of paint! :eek: :D

Rhi

WV.Artistry
09-29-2004, 05:24 PM
Rhiannon, there's some noteable improvement in your brush work, more flow. Keep experimenting :)

Here's my w/i/p

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Sep-2004/48784-Waterhouse_Study_F.jpg

impressionist_brazil
09-29-2004, 06:34 PM
Oh My.... I have just gotten here, through advice from Carey, Dave and Rhi... I cannot believe so much information I am finding in here!!

I believe I will spend the next hours reading all this and enjoying myself...

I didn't know Watershouse until yesterday and since then, I cannot stop thinking of his paintings! I believe I am deeply in love with his work!!

Well, now I have got a lot to study ahead of me.

I plan to start painting from him too, but first I will study and then I will get started with my project...

Thank you all!

Kay

Carey Griffel
09-29-2004, 07:03 PM
Welcome, Kay! :) I know what you mean about instantly falling in love with Waterhouse's works! That's exactly how it happened to me, too. ;) I hope that some of the information that we have in this thread will help you--I know that's opened a few doors for me. Please feel free to post your work here and in the thread that you started in the main forum; we'll be delighted to see it.

Rhi, I've seen some "reproductions" on ebay myself, but the link that you provided is of work of far higher quality than I've seen. Those are actually quite good--as well they should be since they're charging a "decent" amount for them. Interesting, indeed...

~!Carey

RhiannonJ
09-29-2004, 07:53 PM
Rhiannon, there's some noteable improvement in your brush work, more flow. Keep experimenting :)

Here's my w/i/p


Thanks, Richard... coming from you that means a lot! Yep, I have been paying more attention to my brush work and just loading it up with paint and letting loose.. so to speak.

Your painting is coming along beautifully! Do you plan on toning it down a bit in the final layer?... or is it that the photo is casting that umber glaze to it. Knowing you... your painting will come out looking like a master piece, to say the least.

Rhi

RhiannonJ
09-29-2004, 07:59 PM
Hi Kay! :clap: Good to see you here!! We are ALL lovers of Waterhouse, and like yourself, I didn't know much about him either before starting "Miranda". We've got a good group of folkies here and you'll find us all bantering about palettes, brushwork, etc, etc.

Good to have you onboard!

Rhi

RhiannonJ
09-29-2004, 08:01 PM
Rhi, I've seen some "reproductions" on ebay myself, but the link that you provided is of work of far higher quality than I've seen. Those are actually quite good--as well they should be since they're charging a "decent" amount for them. Interesting, indeed...

~!Carey

Yea, not bad as far as "reproductions" go. They probably have an assembly line with the original projected on the canvas. :D I checked over "Windflowers". I liked some aspects of her face better than mine, but I gotta say I think I'm doing a better job on her dress!.. and that says a lot because I am my worse critic! :D

Rhi

WV.Artistry
09-29-2004, 08:38 PM
Thanks, Richard... coming from you that means a lot!
You didn't need anyone to tell you that ;)



Do you plan on toning it down a bit in the final layer?... or is it that the photo is casting that umber glaze to it.
Rhi
This is the first photo I've taken of it "not" in overcast conditions. But my paintings usually change colors anyways, depending on the light . . . I gave up trying to figure that out.

This w/i/p, I uploaded the shot with the most intricate details of the dress showing, since that's what I was working on. And I layered the second flesh on the lower arm and feet.

BTW, I'm leaning toward mud and turp for my foreground, since that color from hell in my turpentine jar has taken on just the right hue to paint those long leaves.

From here -- I'm going over the whole painting and touching up minute' details (i.e., mountains), third layer on dress and flesh, and then even the finish to semi-gloss with Copal Retouch.

I don't know what you mean "umber glaze" but it does have a bit of a glow to it. It's a thing I do <<shrug>>

And thanks for the vote of confidence, but I can mess it up so totally just as easily as anyone . . . "Undo" I said, "Undo!"

"no no NOOoooo..."

:)

dcorc
09-29-2004, 08:54 PM
Lovely work going on here! :clap:


This is the first photo I've taken of it "not" in overcast conditions. But my paintings usually change colors anyways, depending on the light . . . I gave up trying to figure that out.

Richard - what are you doing about white balance/colour temp settings on your camera? - using "auto" may cause significant variations when photographing paintings - better to choose a preset indoor/incandescent/3200K - or outdoor/sunlight/5500K - as appropriate (or whatever your closest settings are) - hope this helps! :)

Dave

RhiannonJ
09-29-2004, 09:23 PM
Lovely work going on here! :clap:
Richard - what are you doing about white balance/colour temp settings on your camera? - using "auto" may cause significant variations when photographing paintings - better to choose a preset indoor/incandescent/3200K - or outdoor/sunlight/5500K - as appropriate (or whatever your closest settings are) - hope this helps! :)

Dave

Thanks for the tip, Dave! I'll check my setting on my camera next time I go to take a photo.

Rhi

WV.Artistry
09-29-2004, 10:19 PM
Lovely work going on here! :clap:

Richard - what are you doing about white balance/colour temp settings on your camera? - using "auto" may cause significant variations when photographing paintings - better to choose a preset indoor/incandescent/3200K - or outdoor/sunlight/5500K - as appropriate (or whatever your closest settings are) - hope this helps! :)

Dave

Thanks for looking.

BTW, my avitar is Hurricane Ivan from GOES 8 just before impact.

I don't use PM.

I generally use Aperture mode, stand back about 15ft, and zoom to fit. This reduces the "skew" effect of photography. It's not perfect, but it helps.

However, this particular painting is difficult to shoot and photographs "dark", and has been forcing me to use a flash. So I've been experimenting with different presets.

Carey Griffel
09-30-2004, 05:15 PM
:clap: YES! I'm giving myself a clappie because I think I deserve it today! I go through cycles, I think, and I believe that today I finally broke through my hard-time-painting cycle. Whoopee! ;) It's strange. I get to feeling down when I don't paint much and when I get back to it in force, I feel sooo much better. You'd think I just wouldn't allow myself to slack off, wouldn't you? ...

I've worked on and around the face of Boreas today and, I have to say, this is by far the best person I've ever done. It LOOKS like a person!! Woohoo! I'm actually satisfied with the skin tones at this point (there will yet be more work on that) and so I'm very pleased. The likeness isn't quite there, but it's definitely okay. I can't ask for more than that! The photos are very off in color, etc, someday I need to buy a good camera. But that's always the way that it is.

Also, I had a complement on it in person...two of my neighbors knocked on my door after seeing it from a distance when I took it outside to photograph. I am just batting 3000 today, I guess. ;) More people have been inside my house today than in months (we'll not count the Army-FBI-equivalent agents).

Yesterday as I was thinking about this painting, I came to the conclusion that I should just do it, for goodness sakes! I have two problems: one of them is deliberating too much (ie, in this case) so that nothing gets done. The other is not thinking enough and so I end up with something that is not a painting but an assemblage of garish blocks of color. I need to find a happy medium.

One thing that I've found interesting and that I suggest to others may sound a little odd, but I'm totally serious...read a Stephen King book.

(Slight pause)

Okay, don't read just *any* Stephen King book. (In fact, I've never read a single one of his novels, but I *do* believe him to be an exceptionally good writer nonetheless.) Read his book *On Writing*... I am continually amazed at the parallels and similarities that can be found between various art forms. I am thinking specifically of painting and writing, of course. As I've been reading this book, I've been astounded at how much of my painting I see in it. Practically everything he says about writing can be applied just as easily to painting. (Plus, it's a fascinating read in and of itself.)

One thing that particularly struck me last night as I was reading was King's insistance that good art be *honest*. There's a lot of meaning behind that, but for me last night, it meant that I should be honest in my painting when it comes to depicting what I see...as long as I am honestly putting on canvas *what I see*, then I can't possibly "fail"! True, the more I work, the better I get and paintings are made up of good and bad techniques...but I think that a person *is* doing well as long as they are honest. I can't say that previously I've been "dishonest", perhaps, but I've found myself trying to reach beyond what I can truly put on my canvas--or, the opposite of not putting what I can. It's good to reach further than your grasp, certainly, but the fact remains that we are all at some level or another and, if we are honest about that, then we can produce "true" works.

I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone else or not, but my suggestion is to read the book and get what you personally get out of it. There aren't a whole lot of books out there where you can really read about painting and get anything out of it...but you *can* read about writing even if you're not a writer and a lot of that translates directly to painting. At least I believe that it does.

~!Carey

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Sep-2004/32203-Boreas_2_sm.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Sep-2004/32203-Boreas_2_detail_sm.jpg

WV.Artistry
09-30-2004, 06:40 PM
[QUOTE=Carey Griffel
I need to find a happy medium.

[/QUOTE]

A psychic with a sense of humor?

Here's my current mix : 1 cap Copal Regular + 1 cap turpentine + 1 cap stand oil. I also keep an additional turpentine jar handy for collecting mud and doing tricks. It's not a happy medium, but it's a better mix for me than some of my other experiments. I switched to Studio Products turpentine and it really does smell better. And it may just be me, but it doesn't seem to evaporate as fast as other turps and thinners (and no headaches either -- the reason I switched). Use what you can.

If you're open to suggestions:
Use Payne's Grey . . . it'll take you where you want to go, applied : 1) by itself, 2) mixed on canvas, and 3) mixed off-canvas. You'll get at least three blue-grey hues using it like that.

Good facial features.

dcorc
09-30-2004, 06:51 PM
I need to find a happy medium.



A psychic with a sense of humor?

Or what Bob Ross used to improve his paint-handling while painting "happy trees"? :p

Dave

Carey Griffel
09-30-2004, 06:52 PM
Hehe...Richard, you crack me up. :) But for a second, I thought you said "A psychotic with a sense of humor"! :eek: :D

Sounds like an interesting medium recipe there...simple yet effective...

And I'm always up for suggestions!

~!Carey

RhiannonJ
09-30-2004, 07:20 PM
Looking good, Carey!! Glad to see you back at it and plowing forward!!! Woo-hoo!!! And yep, definitely take Richard's suggestion on the Payne's Grey. I've always got a pile of that on my palette no matter what I'm painting. :D

Still moving on with "Windy's" dress. I'm down to that bottom right portion where it's shadowed and covered by that bush. I'll start on that tomorrow. I'm not sure how I'm going to approach the bush yet... whether I should let the dress dry and paint the bush OVER it or do it all simultaneously. What do you think folkies?

Rhi

Carey Griffel
09-30-2004, 07:55 PM
Rhi, in answer to your question...yes. :D If it were me, I'd do *suggestions*, so to speak, of the bush as I was working on the dress, but would probably find that additional work would be needed after it's dry, as well. But that's just me. Looking at it, it *is* a pretty complex area, isn't it?

And thanks. ;)

~!Carey

impressionist_brazil
10-01-2004, 04:26 PM
Hi!

I found this website, and I thought it was great. It's in Spanish, though....

http://es.geocities.com/sabri424/principal.htm


Kay

WV.Artistry
10-01-2004, 08:58 PM
a língua dos retratos transcends a língua.

obrigado

WV.Artistry
10-02-2004, 06:07 AM
I have power restored at my house now.

Yay.

dcorc
10-02-2004, 07:57 AM
I have power restored at my house now.

Yay.


Good! :wave:

Dave

ENJAY49
10-02-2004, 03:11 PM
Hello to all...a few weeks ago, (since I haven't worked in fine art in some 40 years, many years wasted painting signs) thought it might be a good exercise to try a version of a favorite painting, "The Lady of Shalot" and get reaquainted with working in oils. Paint was hardly dry when I discovered this great site you people have started here..must be what they call "synchronicity".....nice to know you're not alone....really a helpful and fun site... (Tried to upload an image, but then got an error message that I was unauthorized to view that page...can anyone help with this?) Thanks...
Bruce D.

dcorc
10-02-2004, 03:25 PM
hi Bruce, and welcome!

I'd try again after waiting a little while, say an hour or so - I think things sometimes take a little time to get established when someone joins up new.

also - have a look at this post where I describe how to upload:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2446787&postcount=3

..and let me know if you are then still having problems!

Dave

ENJAY49
10-02-2004, 03:34 PM
Dave... thanks for the quick response.... I'll do just that...Bruce

Carey Griffel
10-02-2004, 08:51 PM
ENJAY49, welcome! Looking forward to seeing your picture once you get all of that figured out! ;)

Rhi, I had a chance to go to Barnes and Noble again and yes, you're right! We're talking about the same book. I was confused because a) the first time I looked at it, I was mostly concentrating on reading a bit and b) I thought that you had said that there were a lot of *big* pictures, like a coffee table book. I wouldn't really consider this book to be "coffee tableish", though it *does* have high-quality images. Anyways, *sigh*, someday I'll have to get it; it really is awesome. I'd be willing to bet that the images in that book are a lot closer to reality but *shrug* what can we do sometimes, you know? We can't all be Dave's neighbors...

Richard--yay for power! Glad to hear that things are up and running for you!

~!Carey

impressionist_brazil
10-03-2004, 07:52 AM
Hey guys!

Well, I have decided that I'll go with "Spring - The Flower Picker".

I found in the website that Dave (dcorc) sent me (www.johnwilliamwaterhouse) a photo of this painting and its size is only 11 x 18 inches.

I will try to do a small study, going with 11 X 15 inches.

I am not sure it will work, so I will begin with the drawing and then I will post something here so I can get help and opinions from you all...

Thanks!!

Kay

impressionist_brazil
10-04-2004, 01:48 PM
Here is my 1st drawing attempt. I don't like it very much, I want to try and draw her face again... I will have to start all over again because I have used too much the eraser and it is becoming to be very messy. I believe she is much more gorgeous than what I show in my drawings....

(This is on white paper.)

WV.Artistry
10-04-2004, 03:30 PM
being down for a week without power, the paint is completely dry. And all I'm doing is messing it up -- that's the call to call it quits.

finis'

only thing to do now is find a sidwalk cafe, a waitress, and trade it for a cup of coffee. Man, I don't drink, but a shot of Fra Angelica liqueor would do me good about now.

cheers!

Richard

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Oct-2004/48784-Waterhouse_Study_H_Upload.jpg

impressionist_brazil
10-04-2004, 03:41 PM
APIO, this is gorgeous!! It is so beautiful!! Congratulations!!!!
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

WV.Artistry
10-04-2004, 03:43 PM
Detail #1

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Oct-2004/48784-Waterhouse_Study_H_Detail_2.jpg

Detail #2

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Oct-2004/48784-Waterhouse_Study_H_Detail_1.jpg

Carey Griffel
10-04-2004, 04:26 PM
Richard, I am left without adequate words. This is gorgeous!!!!! It's definitely worth more than just a cup of coffee. ;) How many hours total do you figure you worked on this one?

Kay, your first drawing is just fine! I'm sure it's difficult getting it exactly how you want it with just the drawing, but you've done a great job on the proportions, etc, something that I need a lot of work on myself.

I'll be right back with my progress if I can manage to take a decent picture outside today...

~!Carey

Carey Griffel
10-04-2004, 04:43 PM
Okay, here we go...comparing this with my last photo, it doesn't seem like I've made much progress, but there is a pretty significant change, at least in real life. :) Mostly I've worked on the fabric, adding a whole lot of purple in and defining the shapes more. I liked the color before, now I'm liking it as it is, but in the end, it will be a combination of the two plus a few other colors to boot, I'm sure.

This will probably have to sit around like this for a few days as I'm needing to finish my horse race picture and do some preliminary work for the new Bougereau I'm doing for the MOM.

~!Carey

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Oct-2004/32203-Boreas_3_sm.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Oct-2004/32203-Boreas_3_detail_sm.jpg

impressionist_brazil
10-04-2004, 04:47 PM
Carey, thank you so much for your words...

Your work is amazing! It is so beautiful!
I love it!!!
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


Kay

WV.Artistry
10-04-2004, 05:43 PM
Carey,

Beautiful start. Sorry to see you're putting this down for the moment, but you're horses are always stunning. I can ride a horse better than I can do most things, but paint one . . . I don't think so. Salute!

To answer your question : approximately 46hrs over one month (or 1.5hrs per day, give or take a couple of hurricanes), based on my posts.

It could be less, or more . . . if you count thinking about it, then it's more. If you discount looking at it and trying to figure out what "not" to do, then it's less. I waste a lot of time -- habitually procrastinate, and take a lot of breaks, so a 4hr session is only worth a few minutes of useful painting.

Roughly calculated, therefore, after the sketch is complete, it has about 11.5hrs worthy of being called, "painting".

I have got improve my time management :(

Richard

dcorc
10-04-2004, 05:48 PM
Richard - you are to be congratulated! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Carey - this is coming along splendidly - I'll look forward to seeing further stages when you return to it.

Kay - the drawing looks fine to me - it's just an aid to finding placements, really, a guide to help block-in the shapes initially, either in colour, or in a grisaille(grey) or verdaccio(green) underpainting if you prefer - I think Waterhouse blocked in in colour.

A couple of things - on your canvas I'd mark in your edges more lightly - otherwise you will be fighting with it trying to get those edges covered with paint - and, may I suggest keeping the edges soft on the initial block-in - let the edges blend a little, rather than doing hard edges exactly up to the lines :)

Dave

dcorc
10-04-2004, 06:04 PM
Richard - I always spend more time looking, and deciding, than actually physically painting - I keep going and making cups of tea, and coffee - once I've accumulated 3 or 4 cups sitting side by side, all 3/4 full - I realise I'd better make more than 2 or 3 brushstrokes before I go make another cup :D

Rhi - where have you got to? :)

Enjay49/Bruce - are you still having tech problems? let me know! :)

I'm hoping to buy some stretchers and canvas (as I want to do it big, 60x38 ins - largest painting I've ever attempted :p ) for the Waterhouse I want to have a go at, while I'm in central London, during the course of this week.

Dave

impressionist_brazil
10-04-2004, 06:09 PM
Hey Dave!

Thank you so much for your comments. I will do as you say, because I totally agree with you...

Kay

RhiannonJ
10-04-2004, 06:17 PM
Richard, you're painting turned out awesome! My only "nit" is I would've like to have seen more subdued tones of umbers and greens. To me, it carries a bit too much of sienna.. but hey, that's just my humble two cents worth. :D

Carey, your painting is really coming along beautifully. Shame you have to set it aside for awhile. I'll be looking forward to your next update.

Okay, here's an update on Windflowers. I tell ya, this has GOT to be the most difficult painting I've ever tried to photograph. It's not quite this dark, but if I try to lighten it up it really looks all outta whack. :D

LOTS more left to do. Right now I'm working the background and as I near her dress I'm doing my best to incorporate the those colours together and keep those edges soft.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Oct-2004/32418-windflowers_details04b.jpg

Rhi

RhiannonJ
10-04-2004, 07:34 PM
Rhi - where have you got to? :)

Dave

My "real" job and dark overcast days got in the way for awhile there, Dave. Just posted my latest wip. :wave:

Rhi

ENJAY49
10-04-2004, 09:26 PM
Dave, do appreciate the interest..,guess that's what "makes" this site...I'm more accustomed to the cut-throat nature of sign painters (sign "writers" over there, I understand)....yea, still having tech trouble, followed your advice; have to reduce kilobites of the image.....I'll figure that out right after Hawking's latest theory on black holes....anyway, I guess it's the old "you get what you pay for" syndrome; photographs are God-awful; flesh appears white, subtle hues disappear; mid-tones look like hi-lites; found edges look drybrushed....sorry to ramble on, but it's kinda frustrating...the whole group here is doing some really nice work, glad to have found you...Bruce

impressionist_brazil
10-05-2004, 07:43 PM
Hey guys!

This is just my start. I felt like covering the whole thing so I wouldn't worry about white spots. Tomorrow I will continue working on it... I just couldn't paint the hand... I mean, I tried but then it was so ugly, that I had to erase that with white paint.

I don't intend to really copy Waterhouse, because I am only learning .. and this is my start... But later on, when I have more experience, I will definitely try to do a duplicate...

Thank you all,

Kay

Carey Griffel
10-06-2004, 01:20 AM
Rhi, it's looking good!! I'm lovin' that purple in the dress!

Kay, nice to see your start. I know what you mean about wanting to cover the canvas! I have a big problem with that myself, but I find that if I rush it too much, I often frustrate myself. :rolleyes: Every painting is a learning experience, I think. Glad you could share, Kay. :)

Richard, I know what you mean, I think...it used to be that I'd try to press myself to "paint" every moment that I set out to paint...but I found that I didn't paint a whole lot that way. (Not to mention not wanting to a lot of times when I'd approach it like that!) Now, I'm *much* more relaxed and I figure, if I only get in twenty minutes of painting even though I'm calling it two hours, then that's twenty minutes more than I'd do if I needlessly pressed myself into frustration! Now I can put in 4-6 hours (yet only physically paint maybe two or three if I'm lucky) and I'm getting more done than I ever have and I'm feeling ever so much better about it. Even if I'm still slow at heart. :p Thanks for the compliment on my horses :) --though I admit to you that I'm jealous if you can ride them! I've only ridden one once--and that was on a trail when I was twelve...

~!Carey

WV.Artistry
10-07-2004, 02:36 PM
. . . Thanks for the compliment on my horses :) --though I admit to you that I'm jealous if you can ride them! I've only ridden one once--and that was on a trail when I was twelve...

~!Carey

When I was about 12, a horse kicked me square in the chest just as I reached down to clean the back hoof. It was my ignorance that didn't see the punch coming, the cocked leg, and then WHOMP!

Ever since then, whenever I first sit . . . from mule to racehorse, "they know", and it's almost as if you can hear them say, "Dang! This one got kicked!"

As I best I can figure, that horse kicked me right into natural law, "give as you get". And I'm now entitled to treat them as they treat me. So we're usually very polite to each other, having no reason to annoy, or challenge, and I let them be horses -- they let me be the wind.

But they're probably are better ways to learn riding than my hard-earned approach.

RhiannonJ
10-08-2004, 10:22 PM
I'm making progress on Windflowers. I'm still working on the background and am winging it as usual. Not quite sure how to get the effect of grass but not having it LOOK like detailed grass. It's slow going. I'm feeling maybe a light glaze of burnt umber might be good before I put in the flowers. Haven't decided yet.

I think a part of me is now kinda procrastinating somewhat mainly because I'm winding down with it and I've had so much fun I almost hate to see it come to an end. That and the fact that I haven't a clue as to what I'll be painting next and I'm out of canvases ... yada, yada, yada.

Anywho... look for an update within a few days folkies.

Rhi

RhiannonJ
10-11-2004, 03:25 PM
Here's an update of my version of "Windflowers". I'll let the grass areas dry and then put in the flowers... probably tomorrow. Then I'll make adjustments where need be. Think I may lighten up her highlighted cheek bone and jaw line areas. Then that'll do it. Probably wrap this one up by the end of the week and will post my final then. Think I'll take it outside for my final photo. The light where my easel stands is changing and this is a difficult painting to get a good photo of.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2004/32418-windflowers_details05.jpg

Rhi

loop
10-11-2004, 04:11 PM
That is SPLENDID ,the grass look really great. I can't wait to see the final

WV.Artistry
10-12-2004, 12:01 AM
Rhiannon

They don't have a salute icon :)



Richard

RhiannonJ
10-12-2004, 09:11 AM
Thanks guys. I really hate to see this one winding down and coming to an end. Had a lot of fun with it.

I tried to keep my grass really loose and kept the paint fairly think in some areas. It's not quite as green in the actual painting. It's a bit more subdued. Once I get the flowers in place and do any minor tweaking I'll take it outside and photograph it. I really want to get a good photo of the final piece so I can have prints made. :D

Think I'm going to do one of Ophelia. Either the one where she's lying down in the grass or the one where she's in that blue dress. Haven't decided yet but I've gotta wait til I order more canvases. I'd like to do it on a 24x36. Until then I'll probably just do a quickie 9x12.

Rhi

DLGardner
10-12-2004, 10:35 AM
Rhi, I cannot express how beautiful this is. Simply breathtaking. You do know how to paint!

Dianne

Carey Griffel
10-12-2004, 11:35 AM
:clap: Rhi! Woo-hoo! Beautiful and I'm looking forward to your finish!

I was sincerely hoping to get back to my painting today, but it looks like it won't happen...after having a long weekend, it takes me another day to get back in the groove. :rolleyes: I get annoyed with myself too often.

BUT, I really ought to make some *good* headway with this this week nonetheless! It's been sitting around in this state (more or less) for FAR too long.

~!Carey

RhiannonJ
10-12-2004, 01:02 PM
Thanks for the compliments, Dianne and Carey. Just noticed that her right foot is outta whack so I definitely need to fix that. I have problems painting feet. :D Also need to tweak the left side of that creek. It's a bit too bright.

Since taking this photo I've started on the flowers lying about on the ground. Have added a bit more colour to the lower right purple portion of her dress and have made a few other minor tweaks.

I'll probably be posting the final piece in a few days. Depends on the weather and being able to get a good pic.

Rhi

Carey Griffel
10-12-2004, 01:16 PM
Rhi, I was wondering if you could share some of the technique you used to paint the grass? I'd love any info that you could pass on! I'm always looking for better ways to paint grass...I hate painting grass... :mad: ;) :)

~!Carey

RhiannonJ
10-12-2004, 01:48 PM
Rhi, I was wondering if you could share some of the technique you used to paint the grass? I'd love any info that you could pass on! I'm always looking for better ways to paint grass...I hate painting grass... :mad: ;) :)

~!Carey

Carey,

I hate painting grass too! And really didn't know how to approach it looking at the way Waterhouse does it. Once I had the colour blocked in I basically took a rather smallish brush, a size 6 filbert. I basically loaded the brush heavily with paint. The darkest green is sap green but I would often pick up other colours at the same time like burnt umber or sometimes even payne's grey. Then I just used loose vertical strokes. Picking up darker and lighter colours as needed. For the background where the grass isn't as obvious, I did the same thing only using loose horizontal strokes.

Hope that helps. :D

These are the two paintings I'm debating on to do next.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Oct-2004/32418-opheliainbluedress.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Oct-2004/32418-opheliainmeadow.jpg

I'm kinda leaning towards the one of Ophelia in the blue dress but then the other one I could switch with the painting of the Outer Banks over my couch because they're both horizontals and be the same size (24x36). Whadya think, Carey? I'll probably eventually do them both regardless.

Rhi

dcorc
10-12-2004, 02:48 PM
Rhi - your painting is a great success! Looking forward very much to seeing the final adjustments on it!

Dave

RhiannonJ
10-14-2004, 03:14 PM
Here's the final of "Windflowers". I took the painting outside today and STILL couldn't get a good photo of it. It still turns out too dark no matter what I do.

Dave, do you have any suggestions?

Anyways, thought I'd go ahead and post it. <sniff> I really hate to see this one come to an end.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Oct-2004/32418-windflowers_final2.jpg

Rhi

RhiannonJ
10-14-2004, 03:29 PM
Here are some close up shots:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Oct-2004/32418-windflowers_final_details01.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Oct-2004/32418-windflowers_final_details04.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Oct-2004/32418-windflowers_final_details06.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Oct-2004/32418-windflowers_final_details03.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Oct-2004/32418-windflowers_final_details07.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Oct-2004/32418-windflowers_final_details08.jpg

I'm feeling a bit sad right now. Feels like I'm coming down off of a high. :D If that makes sense. Don't know where to go from here... though Ophelia in that blue dress sure is calling my name. :D

Rhi

Carey Griffel
10-14-2004, 04:20 PM
:clap: Yea!! Rhi, way to go!! Even if the photo is a bit darker than the original, it seems to me you managed to get a great shot as far as these things go... LOVE those close ups!! You did such a good job with this one. You deserve a few days of sitting in front of it, staring at it, saying "Wow, did I do that?!" --I love that feeling! :D

Oh, Rhi, that Ophelia in the blue dress sure would look great on your wall! :D ;) I can just see what a sucess that would turn out to be if you go with that one!

*sniff, sniff* I wish *I* didn't have credit cards, Rhi! ;) If mine would just *poof* into the air right now, I promise I wouldn't use them anymore!! :rolleyes:

I've had a rough week of trying to paint!!! ARG!!! I managed to get going today, but I guess I'm just trying to rework the face on Boreas too much (*trying* desperately to get a likeness!!) and I'm getting *very* frustrated with it and I don't know what to do with it now. Perhaps the smart thing to do would be to move on to the rest of it for now, but her eye just keeps *staring* at me with this demented look... :rolleyes: I'm determined to do more this week and get it done by next week!! I am determined, goshdangit!!

~!Carey

RhiannonJ
10-14-2004, 05:05 PM
Hi Carey,

Thanks. I think I will take a breather for a few days. And yes, Ophelia in that blue dress IS next on my list. I just can't resist her! Her eyes are what scare me. That look is just so astonishing! I hope I can do it justice. I don't know where I'll put her because I'll be doing her on a 24x36... but dagnabbit, I'll FIND room for her! :D

I think Boreas's face and eyes is looking good! Moving on to maybe her dress might be the way to go. Go back to the eyes later. I did that with "Windy". If I wasn't quite satisfied with something I moved on and then went back to it later. You'll do it, girl!! I have faith in ya! :clap: :clap:

Rhi

RhiannonJ
10-15-2004, 12:19 PM
Here's an update to my final. Loop noticed that her left breast was sagging a little. I found that a few buttons weren't fastened on her bustier. :D

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Oct-2004/32418-windflowers_final03.jpg

Rhi

Carey Griffel
10-15-2004, 01:11 PM
Thanks for the support, Rhi! Last night I couldn't get to sleep, so at midnight I got up and worked on Boreas a little more--that eye was just haunting me since I'd messed it up earlier in the day. After an hour of work, I couldn't believe what I had! Something that might actually be construed as a likeness! :D Woohoo!

I would have been able to sleep in peace then if I hadn't sat up to finish the book I was reading! ;) *The Face* by Dean Koontz...for being a so-called "horror" writer (pish posh, if you ask me), he sure has some freaking awesome books. I simply love his endings and this one made me cry bucketloads!

Today I am working on the drapery; I might be able to finish that part up, even! I'm not strictly done with the face, but I don't dare touch it again until it dries for fear of screwing it up again. I'll try and take a photo of my progress today, but no guarantees as it's a very cloudy day in the neighborhood.

I sure am having fun with this today! (Plus the Chinese I ordered for lunch sure doesn't hurt anything! :D )

~!Carey

RhiannonJ
10-15-2004, 01:25 PM
Carey,

LOL!! Boy do you remind me of myself! I'm the same way. If a part of my painting is driving me that nuts, sooner or later I'll get up and play with it til I'm somewhat satisfied! Once, I got Windy's face done I still wanted to add just a tad more highlights but was afraid I'd muck it up. I finally did somewhat but I'm the same way. Geez, and THEN I look at "Ophelia" and I just freak when I look at her eyes! :D Heck, I'll do it somehow.

Sounds like an interesting book. I'll have to see if I can't get ahold of that one.

I loved doing Windy's dress. Loads of fun! Can't wait to see your next update. It's overcast down here in Maryland today too. We're expecting rain and possibly (hopefully) thunderstorms too!

Mmm... Chinese sounds good! We have a take away just down the street but I'll have to wait til next Wednesday which is payday. Kinda low on funds at the moment. :(

Rhi

Carey Griffel
10-15-2004, 08:17 PM
Yay! I took a picture. It's definitely coming along, though comparing the photo with my reference, I see a heck of a lot lacking. Messing around with the picture I took, such as I could, I tried really hard to get the colors at least moderately correct, but I can't get it to look any less "sharp" than it does with the contrast and still have something that approaches the appropriate color. *shrug* Looking at the picture I took makes me want to shudder, but, really, the actual painting isn't that bad. :rolleyes: Even so, there's a LOT that I can do with it, but I *do* want to be done with it relatively soon. Sooo..we shall see. It'll be a battle between wanting to get this done and wanting it to be the very best possible. It'll never be what I really would like it to be, of course, but I do have to admit that it's better than I could have done even a few months ago. So in that sense, it's a definite success, no matter how far I take it from here. I just wish that dang pictures of it would turn out even moderately looking like the actual painting. :p

~!Carey

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Oct-2004/32203-Boreas_4_sm.jpg

RhiannonJ
10-15-2004, 10:02 PM
This is looking great, Carey! You've definitely got her face down! Good work. I tell ya, I won't ever do another painting like Windflowers on a canvas smaller than 24x36. I did Windflowers on an 18x24 and I should've gone larger. It would've made the process so much easier. It's just impossible to get the face right working with maybe an inch of space! With Boreas you have a bit more area to work with because it's more of a close up of her. What size are you doing this on again?

Her shawl is coming along nicely too. You've made a lot of progress! :clap:

I know what you mean about trying to get good photos of these Waterhouse paintings. I've had a helluva time trying to get pictures that closely resemble my actual painting but they always turn out so much darker and then I've got to adjust them in Photoshop but they never really do the painting full justice.

I think maybe one of these years I'll do this painting myself but after "Ophelia" which I'll be starting next, that'll be doing it for me with Waterhouse for awhile. :D

Rhi

RhiannonJ
10-16-2004, 11:11 AM
Carey,

Would ya believe I'm still messing around with Windy. :D I'm not satisfied with her lips and I just won't let it rest until I get them right.

Late last night I was working on it. I shouldn't have been because the light was awful even with all the lights turned up high. What colour did you use for Boreas's lips?

Rhi

Carey Griffel
10-18-2004, 10:07 PM
Whoops! Double posted!!

Carey Griffel
10-18-2004, 10:11 PM
Rhi, do I ever know what you mean about fiddlin'. :D I think I'm *starting* to get this wrapped up here, definitely this week or next, depending on if I need a layer to dry, which it's looking like I will with the fabric. Today I worked a good share more on her face and the fabric. Tomorrow I'll do the skirt and background (or however far I get :) ) and after that, we'll see what needs to be done. I may be able to finish the fabric while it's still wet, but I don't think so.

Her lips are burnt sienna, straight up. I've mixed some other things into it, tried adding cad red (lips are supposed to be *red*, right? :rolleyes: :p ), but it never looks right. I'm amazed when I always keep coming back to just plain ol' burnt sienna, maybe with a bit of white for the lighter areas, and a bit of ultramarine or paynes gray for the shadow.

I've gotten further than these images, but I took them in the middle of my session just for the decent evening light. I think I've got a few decent pictures and decided to post several here so that you can have a better overall idea of what it *should* look like by combining the different pictures in your head. :p Well, that's the general idea, anyway... :D ;)

~!Carey

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Oct-2004/32203-Boreas_4a_sm.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Oct-2004/32203-Boreas_4b_sm.jpg

Including this tilted one because, for whatever reason, when I photograph a painting tilted, it seems to be truer to color and value. Weird.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Oct-2004/32203-DSC01385_sm.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Oct-2004/32203-Boreas_4_detail_2_sm.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Oct-2004/32203-Boreas_4_detail_sm.jpg

RhiannonJ
10-18-2004, 11:27 PM
God, Carey.. I'm speechless!! Your likeness to Boreas is absolutely amazing! Sshessh... makes me want to go and fiddle even MORE with Windy.

I tell ya, I think it's gonna be a LONG time before I do any kind of painting with a figure in it that is small. Painting a face that is only about an inch in height sucks.

You've really got the likeness down and after looking at your face of "Boreas" I feel like I want to go and perhaps rework Windy's face a bit more but it's so darn small I wouldn't know what else to do with her.

Can't help but admit that after looking at your "Boreas" I'm feeling a bit discouraged about doing any more Waterhouse paintings and here I am about to tackle "Ophelia"! Who am I kidding! :eek:

Awesome work, girl!

Rhi

Carey Griffel
10-18-2004, 11:38 PM
LOL, Rhi. I *know* what you mean about working with small areas for figures. I've done my share of drawings trying to get a likeness and failing oh-so-misearably at it only to slap myself upside the head and say, well, duh, when it's only a square inch of space...! Really, though, I was amazed at your likeness and I don't think you need to change it unless you see something that's really off with it.

I'm glad to know that my likeness is getting a lot closer. I'm feeling *tons* better about it, though flipping from the original to my latest photo on my computer is *still* showing me areas that could use a bit of fixing. Am I ever gonna be done with this? :p Seriously, though, it's definitely coming along, though I wouldn't be surprised if it, in fact, took me another three or four weeks of fiddlin before I declare it done.

Rhi, I know you can do your next project! I know you can! Belieeeeve me, if I've come this far on this one, you can do that one! Ophelia is calling for you... ;)

Thanks for the encouragement...my thoughts are already drifting towards which one *I'll* do next... ;) :)

I sure did have fun painting today...six hours on a Monday of all things?? I can hardly believe I did as much as I did today! I'm thinking that this will be a good week, indeed...

~!Carey

DLGardner
10-19-2004, 01:05 PM
You two are too good! Whatever thoughts I had about doing a Waterhouse are laid to rest! I'll let you do the work for me. These are exceptional! Both of you.

Dianne

WV.Artistry
10-19-2004, 01:20 PM
...my thoughts are already drifting towards which one *I'll* do next... ;) :)

~!Carey

Which ones are you(s) going to do next -- I'll do another.

Richard

RhiannonJ
10-20-2004, 10:13 AM
You two are too good! Whatever thoughts I had about doing a Waterhouse are laid to rest! I'll let you do the work for me. These are exceptional! Both of you.

Dianne

Thanks Dianne. I think I've finally stopped fiddling with Windy. Now it's on to "Ophelia". Geez, I must be nuts thinkin' I can do this! Oh heck, it's only paint and a canvas. I'll be doing it on a 24x36 but it's gotta wait til I get my order from Dick Blicks.

C'mon Richard, do another one with us!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Oct-2004/32418-opheliainbluedress2.jpg

Rhi

Carey Griffel
10-20-2004, 06:28 PM
LOL, Diane, thanks for the complement, but, seriously, we expect to see you in here! ;) Please? We don't want to see this thread wind down...we'd love to see more people join in!!

Richard, it'd be great for you to join us with round two! (Assuming I finish up round one! :p ) From the start, I had intended to do Windflowers until Boreas caught my eye...very likely I'll do that one next, though I'm going to take a close look at some others to see if I'd rather do something else. :cool:

~!Carey

WV.Artistry
10-20-2004, 07:36 PM
I'm undecided, but here's some problems in common :)

If you find a high-resolution pic of the last version here, let me know.

The ArtRenewal version of "Soul of a Rose" is truncated. Unfortunately, it's one of the few larger pics I've found. They got their version from CFGA.

Compared to the "other" versions I've found of this painting, it has a different contrast (different colors).

The other pics I've found aren't hi-res and are lousy pics for studying, but they do show truncated portions. The last one shows the signature.

Visipix has only 5 Waterhouse paintings, but they do have some very high resolution pics.
http://www.visipix.com/search/search.php?keywords=Waterhouse&showtree=0&lang=en&sector=2

Example :

ArtRenewal Version : "My Sweet Rose"
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Oct-2004/50986-My_Sweet_Rose_Art_Renewal.jpg

Other Version Found : "Soul of a Rose"
(not hi-res)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Oct-2004/50986-Soul_of_the_Rose_Other.jpg

Other Version Found : "Soul of a Rose"
Signature visible
(not hi-res)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Oct-2004/50986-Soul_of_the_Rose_Other_2.jpg

WV.Artistry
10-21-2004, 07:51 PM
Here's what I'm working on . . .

Waterhouse sketched this study for his painting, "The Lady Clare". I'm going to paint it, but use one of his other works as a mode to accomplish it.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Oct-2004/50986-Waterhouse_Study_for_the_Lady_Clare_UL.jpg

Carey Griffel
10-21-2004, 09:32 PM
Richard, ooo, very cool! What an interesting idea...I'm going to enjoy watching it progress! Hmm...doing something this way seems to me a great way to not have to stress on exact color, perfect placement, etc, while still trying to get at Waterhouse's style.

Well, folks! I can hardly believe it...Boreas is all but done now!! After an eight-hour painting marathon today (! my feet are *TIRED!*), something I've never accomplished before, I am nearly finished! I certainly didn't expect to get so much done, even in eight hours, but I finally got around to the background, the skirt, the hand, and all that's left is a little bit here and there, more on the hand (so it looks a little less like a monkey's :p ), and a tad more on the drapery. Yay!! I will be done tomorrow. Hoorah! I'm afraid that I'll have to keep you in suspense as there's no way I could get a decent picture (even if it wasn't late, it's been cloudy and rainy), but as soon as I can, I'll be sure to post my final! Woohoo! Then onto the next thing!

~!Carey

RhiannonJ
10-21-2004, 10:08 PM
I'm undecided, but here's some problems in common :)

If you find a high-resolution pic of the last version here, let me know.

Richard,

All I can say is "wishful thinking". :D I don't know HOW many countless hours I've spent searching online looking for images of "Miranda - the Tempest", "Windflowers" and now "Ophelia" (in the blue dress). Good hi res images simply aren't available. And what you DO find ... the colours are all outta whack. Waterhouse's paintings are much more subdued than the images you see on websites. His backgrounds tend to be very dark so as to focus on the subject of that particular painting.

I got a bit lucky with "Windy" as far as finding a hi res photo, but then again, the colour was off. I based the colour of her undress from the Waterhouse book I have. To me, that photo was more accurate than any I've come across on the web.

I searched for hours looking for hi res images of Ophelia in that daggone blue dress that somewhat matched the photo of my Waterhouse book but didn't find squat! I took the closest image I found into Paint Shop Pro and enlarged it enough just so I could get a better look at her face... especially her eyes. I can't honestly say how I'll approach this next one. I want to think about what I learned from "Windflowers".

It may be awhile til I can get started on Ophelia. All hell has broken out with my work so things may be a bit hectic for awhile. I plan on doing perhaps a study sketch first and then do a grid sketch on my canvas to get the layout correct.

Just don't hold your breath folks for seeing anything reasonably soon. <grrrr>

Rhi

RhiannonJ
10-21-2004, 10:41 PM
Well, folks! I can hardly believe it...Boreas is all but done now!! ~!Carey

Wow, Carey! I can't believe you're nearly finished! Geez, you must've had one helluva marathon painting session. Can't wait to see the pics.

Rhi

Carey Griffel
10-21-2004, 11:26 PM
Well, I've gotta say, I'm going to be glad to be done with this one, though it *has* been a good deal of fun and I've exceeded my own expectations. I'm tempted to work on it some more past tomorrow, and goodness knows that I could, but there comes a time when the reward of continuing working on a painting gets outstripped by the need to move on. I could stare at it some more for several more weeks, really, and I'm sure I could do even better, but it's seriously time for me to get to other things--and, really, I *am* pleased with it as it stands, just a few minor adjustments now. Woot! ;)

~!Carey

WV.Artistry
10-22-2004, 03:42 PM
w/i/p

rough sketch with French clay.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Oct-2004/50986-Sketch_11.jpg

RhiannonJ
10-22-2004, 06:00 PM
Richard, nice start. What in the world is French clay? Never heard of it. Is this on paper?

Here's my first day's start of my sketch of "Ophelia". I'm pleased with the way the placement is coming along... as well as her face. The shape of it is pretty much there so I'll leave that be. Her hand is outta whack but I'll deal with that later. Don't know what it is about hands and feet. They drive me *nuts* trying to paint them! I'm working with a grid and it does make things a lot easier.

At least I've got something started and I'm moving along again. :D

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Oct-2004/32418-Ophelia_sketch01b.jpg

Rhi

WV.Artistry
10-22-2004, 06:55 PM
What in the world is French clay?
Rhi

Dirt from France.

My sister brought me a bag of ochre from a French mine -- birthday present. The sketch is the equivalent of finger painting with mud (canvas 16x20). I'll experiment with it later mixed in a glaze.

Good luck with your selection.

Carey Griffel
10-22-2004, 07:50 PM
Interesting, Richard...I was expecting French clay to be some special thing you bought at an art store, but, hey, real French dirt...wow. :) That's kinda cool.

Rhi, whoa! What a terrific start! Using a rough grid like that sure puts a little stress off, doesn't it? It does for me at least! Grids can be useful to start off with for me because that's often the hardest part! You've got a *great* start!

Okay...I took these pictures this afternoon (thankfully was a beautiful day today :) ), but there's a good bit of glare going as it was direct sunlight in the best spot I've found to photograph my paintings. I was going to give it a try again a few hours later with more diffuse light outside, but by then, I was in a restraunt eating steak. So this is what I've got for now and if I can manage better pictures later under better conditions when the paint's drier and if I'm not lazy, I'll post updates.

I'm really very pleased with how this has turned out and I'm looking forward to hearing other opinions on it. I'm open to comments that can help me with my next one, though this one's now signed and after I sign things, it seems that there's a microscopic shield that pops up over the painting, so if I try to do any more, no matter how I try to match paint, it just looks wrong because the paint ends up on this mythical shield and not really on the painting itself. :D ...Or something like that.

I'm going to have to give some serious thought to my next Waterhouse because I got a great suggestion from my husband...upon seeing my completed painting of Boreas today, he asked me if I was going to give it as a gift. I haven't done that much up til now because, quite frankly, I'd be embarrassed and who wants my crap hanging on the wall. :D But I really do think that I'm up to the level now where I can give something nice to someone, so that got me to thinking. I bet that I keep Boreas as it's one of my first "nice" paintings (though we'll see, maybe I can part with it come Christmas), but in the course of our conversation, I thought it would be terrific to give my next Waterhouse rendition to Jared's grandmother...grandmothers love that type of thing in general and I don't want to spend fifty hours on something for someone who's indifferent (as happens all too often when I try to give people creative items). So I'm pretty excited about that!

Boreas took me a total of 45 hours to complete (well, just over 45 hours, I think). Not too bad, I think; certainly I've been spending more time on my paintings of late and I really like taking my time and doing as good a job as I can. And allowing me that much time makes me a little less frustrated, I think, because I have the luxury to fix all kinds of things...and, perhaps more importantly, to see what needs fixing!

So. Tell me whatchoo all think! :) And I've got to say that I've been having a blast with this thread!! I'm looking forward to even more! ;)

~!Carey

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Oct-2004/32203-Boreas_done_sm.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Oct-2004/32203-Boreas_done_detail_1_sm.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Oct-2004/32203-Boreas_done_detail_2_sm.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Oct-2004/32203-Boreas_done_detail_3_sm.jpg

RhiannonJ
10-22-2004, 08:19 PM
Carey,

You should be *proud* of your painting of Boreas!!! Anyone with any sense in their frelling head would be more than pleased to have this painting displayed in their home. Don't sell yourself short, girlfriend.

I want to comment on areas I think you/we can approve upon and that's the general values of our paintings. (I need to do the same myself so I'm learning from looking at YOUR painting.) If you look at Waterhouse's painting of Boreas, Windflowers, Ophelia, etc., there's very little value change in the background specifically... it's very subdued... dark muted colours. I think we need to focus on toning down those values in *our* copies of Waterhouse. I'm guilty of this as well with "Windflowers". It's so difficult to get those muted colours. Another suggestion that I'm going to focus on as well is to keep the edges soft and blend them together... meaning, where two edges meet, say the dress and the background, don't paint them so the paint meets the different pigments, rather blend the two together at once.

You REALLY know how to nail down the likeness of someone's face!!! You've got that *hands down*!! Man, I can only HOPE that Ophelia's face is as good a copy as you did with good ole Boreas!!

So... have you decided what you're going to do next? :D

Rhi

P.S. Keep Boreas for yourself and hang it proudly on your wall. You deserve it and it's an accomplishment that you can look back on in the years to come. Hell, I couldn't even think about parting with Windflowers! I'm still building my "personal" collection. :D

Carey Griffel
10-22-2004, 08:25 PM
Thanks, Rhi! :) Definitely appreciate your comments!! Your suggestion on the values is very correct and I'm glad that you brought it up so that I will think a little more about that. It's something I've always struggled with and I'm getting better, but I need more work, for sure. I'm going to sit and think about this painting for a few days and then I will post something comprehensive about my thoughts in general about what I've learned and what I'd like to improve upon. I'll do this both in hopes that someone else will learn something from this, but also because that's how I best work through things myself, by writing them down.

Also, my camera's been abysmal at taking this picture in general, the values IRL are at least a *bit* more subdued...the contrasts in the folds of the fabric and the figure/background edge isn't quite so abrubt, but even so, could have used more work.

~!Carey

RhiannonJ
10-22-2004, 09:18 PM
Carey,

You probably had the same problem that I had with photographing "Windflowers". All that dark area just throws things all outta whack.

You did a GREAT job, girl!!! I'll be studying the face of your "Boreas" when I get down to painting Ophelia. That's how much I'm amazed at what you accomplished!!

Btw, I thought it was some good promo over in the WOYE thread the fact that I had just posted my w/i/p sketch of Ophelia and then minutes later you posted your final of Boreas!! Maybe that'll generate some more interest in Waterhouse. Seems like Bougie's got the niche but time will tell. :wink2:

Rhi

SallyAnn
10-22-2004, 11:00 PM
Hiya all.. been browsing through this thread after seeing the little HINT in the WOYE thread.. lol....

Awesome work.........will have to check out some of his work for sure... I must confess ignorance in Masters.....but I like to learn so all good fun.

The paintings seem very "romantic" if thats the word Im looking for. Lovely soft subdued colours.

Off to the art store tomorrow to pick up some canvases... who knows.. I might have a go.......if not.. will continue to watch progress here.. a great education and fun at the same time :D

artbabe21
10-23-2004, 04:26 PM
WOW! FABULOUS!
I'm sorry I haven't been commenting on this stunning work of my FAVE
pre Raphelite painter, but I've been in & out of town!

Rhi, the Windflowers is so beautifully done, you should be SO proud! Your new sketch of your next painting is so spot on with the expression! Can't wait to watch her come alive!

Richard, really terrific drawing! I'd love leaving one at that stage & beginning another.

Carey! Yours is so professional looking...why I think you might be ready to sell your work, not just give it away! What a gorgeous painting to keep forever, a benchmark!! Thanks for sharing your processes everyone!! :)

WV.Artistry
10-23-2004, 05:49 PM
Richard, really terrific drawing! I'd love leaving one at that stage & beginning another.



too late . . .

w/i/p

washed, roughed-in, and layed foundation

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Oct-2004/50986-MF_001.jpg

WV.Artistry
10-24-2004, 03:00 PM
Well, I destroyed it, ugh!

It had an allergic reaction to my painting and the head blew up. Not even going to post.

RhiannonJ
10-26-2004, 05:14 PM
Hi all,

Here's an update of my "Ophelia" sketch. Think I'm satisfied so will do a bit of "homework" before I actually begin the painting. Not sure how I'm going to proceed with this one but I *think* I'm going to do a very loose underpainting first and work on Ophelia and the area surrounding her at the same time so I can more easily blend the edges.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Oct-2004/32418-Ophelia_sketch02b.jpg

Rhi

Carey Griffel
10-27-2004, 05:36 PM
Hey all! Sorry I've been off for a few days.

Richard, sorry to hear of the devestation! I know how that goes when it takes a sudden nose dive and there's nothing you can practically do to save it, poor thing!

SallyAnn and Cathleen, thanks for checking in! :) Cathleen, particular thanks for the complement...that sure does mean a lot to me!!

Rhi, wow! You've got a *terrific* foundation there! I'm going to be thrilled to see your progress on this one, as it sounds like it'll be very different for you! I'm sure you'll end up with a beauty there!

I'm *still* (yes, still) undecided about my next one...but I won't start it for at least a week if not two as I'm finally tackling this Bougereau for October; surprisingly, it's coming along better than I'd hoped, at least. Maybe not great, but, well, *shrug*, we'll see how it goes, I suppose. It's definitely true that having just done Boreas and now getting going on this one, I'm finding myself less intimidated by doing people, for sure! And that, believe me, says a *LOT*.

~!Carey

WV.Artistry
10-27-2004, 06:27 PM
Carey,

I've been waiting on your self-critique post :)

Actually, I've looked over your painting a gazillion times (that's an accounting phrase), started a post, and deleted it just as many, because it has strengths and weaknesses. Truth is, I'm not someone to critique anyone's else's work. And anything I could say constructively, I find myself having the same weak areas, i.e., we overwork the paint, and often paint too thin.

A year and a half ago, I was painting with globs that would've made Vincent Van Gogh envious, but then overcompensated, going so thin the canvas was showing. I've been trying to find a way to the middle. So the Waterhouse was a good excercise for me. He is not an economical painter.

I did get some brush techniques from the rendition. Hope you got something out of it too.

RhiannonJ
10-27-2004, 06:56 PM
Richard,

I've got the tendency of painting too thin at times. Guess I'm just stingy with paint. :D I'm trying to overcome that, just as yourself and find a happy "medium". :D

Btw, I've started a thread about different underpaintings in regards to Ophelia and would appreciate you guys checking it out and offering some advice. I'm considering doing a Bistre underpainting for Ophelia. Haven't yet decided.

You can find it here (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226140).

Rhi

RhiannonJ
10-27-2004, 07:00 PM
Rhi, wow! You've got a *terrific* foundation there! I'm going to be thrilled to see your progress on this one, as it sounds like it'll be very different for you! I'm sure you'll end up with a beauty there!

I'm *still* (yes, still) undecided about my next one...but I won't start it for at least a week if not two as I'm finally tackling this Bougereau for October; surprisingly, it's coming along better than I'd hoped, at least. Maybe not great, but, well, *shrug*, we'll see how it goes, I suppose. It's definitely true that having just done Boreas and now getting going on this one, I'm finding myself less intimidated by doing people, for sure! And that, believe me, says a *LOT*.

~!Carey

Thanks, Carey! Yea, I'm pleased with the sketch overall. Of course, adjustments will be made along the way. :D See my above post and check out that thread I've started about underpaintings for Ophelia. I'm ready to get going on the underpainting but haven't decided which way to go. Would appreciate your input.

I'll be following your progress on your Bougereau. I'm sure doing Boreas was a tremendous help!.. as was me doing Windflowers.

Btw, I did a search for "Waterhouse" today here in WC and found a few other "Windflowers" paintings. Very interesting. Try it sometime! ;)

Rhi

Carey Griffel
10-28-2004, 01:29 AM
I've been waiting on your self-critique post

Here it is. :)

*Sigh*...what an odd thing painting is, don't you think? I seem to go in fits and bounds...one moment I'm thrilled about what I've accomplished, the next moment I'm floored by how little I measure up to what I aspire.

That is, of course, the way that it should be. I aspire to a great many things that will never come to pass in this life, but that is the only way that I will achieve my personal best, whatever that may be. Ultimately, I am happy if only I surpass myself. That is the only way to judge these things, after all, especially with something as subjective as art. No art is perfect--someone can find a flaw in the best of art. How can, for example, Bougereau be compared to Waterhouse? There is no comparison, really; they are quite different...perfect in their own ways just as they are imperfect in their own ways.

Looking at my latest work, I have a great many shortcomings, of course, but also, I've come a *long* way from what I was just a short while ago. Richard, you are very correct in saying that my painting has both strengths and weaknesses. And I am certainly not one to critique others' work, either, for I am severely lacking in more areas than I can count; however, I do find merit in offering one's own opinion even in such circumstances...yes, more often than not, the things I mention to others are, indeed, things I would like to correct myself...but somehow in my human nature I am able to see those things more clearly in work I have not divested any time in whatsoever and by sharing that with others, I do believe that I come closer to seeing what to correct for myself. Plus, I enjoy getting critiques for my own work and feel guilty if I don't do the service for others, however limited I may be.

I have a working "theory of subtlety"...it goes far beyond this discussion, but the relevent bit is that those who are skilled at some craft, whatever it may be, posses a great deal more subtlety than those who are less skilled. Taken in the art of painting, that means more subtlety in color, greater variation in tone and smaller transition of value, greater observation overall, and even the wonderment of students saying "how did he do that??"

Those, among many other things, are all things that I'm striving to get better at (well, except maybe that last bit :p )--I believe that they are all things that, to varying degrees, I did, in fact, improve in my copy of "Boreas".

The color mixing was far better than I've done in the past (plus I am learning to mix more on the palette and less on the canvas...though in this, I still have far to go). I'm rather pleased with the color of the fabric (not close to the orginal, I'm sure, but references I found were so varied that I wasn't even trying to get close because who knew what that was??) and never ever ever have I mixed such a flesh tone. Yes, it's a rather idealized flesh, perhaps, but I'm just happy that it doesn't look like a clown! (Plus, Waterhouse does seem to do a great many things idealized, in my opinion...not a bad thing, just the way it is.) The great point about it was that I'm not so hung up about "mixing flesh tone" now, though certainly I have more work to do.

As far as overall tone/value...not done perfectly in "Boreas", for sure; in fact, it's something that I rather neglected a tad and it should be more on the forefront of my mind. My values definitely tend to be too light, as they are in many areas of Boreas. However, I can at least claim that I did not make a painting entirely of midtones here, which is what I have a strong tendency to do. Nor did I overtly blend things (though I should have blended more in some areas :rolleyes: )...I like soft edges to my brushstrokes, for sure, but in the past I've gotten carried away with my blending far beyond the areas that need blending and I end up with a mass of blurry midtones that just, frankly, looks awful!

When it comes to "observation", well, I have a loooong ways to go there...however, in "Boreas", I certainly outdid myself. In fact, I can hardly believe that I ended up with someone who looks like a person let alone kinda looking like she's supposed to look. "Observation" might be called the primary skill of an artist, something that develops very slowly, at least as far as I go, but once you have more of this skill, other things seem to magically fall into place.

Edges...edges are so vitally important in painting that it's a wonder they are not more often discussed, I think. Though I don't really believe it, it's said that nothing in real life *has* edges, so you ought to be careful to put in share edges in painting. I believe that part, at least. Sadly, I am very bad at edges, I think, as is painfully obvious in "Boreas". But I do think that a lot of my problem lies in observation. On the surface, I *do* see edges, so I paint them as such. But I don't want to be painting what I see "on the surface"; it's necessary for me to look much deeper than that.

Often, I think we can't be sure what we've really and truly learned by something until we move on to something else that uses those skills. That's one reason I wanted to wait these last few days before posting some of my thoughts here about "Boreas", so that I would have a chance to get started on my next painting and see what big differences come up in my work.

I am now working on "Au Bord du Ruisseau". It took me much less time to get this painting actually *looking* like a person than it took me in "Boreas", though I'm still uncertain as to the actual likeness.

Only today did I realize that I've been working these last few days *without worrying about what colors I was using*! Of course, I'm not actually satisfied with the flesh tone that has arisen, but the big kicker is that I haven't been agonizing over it because I realized, in "Boreas" that simple colors can create something approximating what I want and I can elaborate from there.

Also, with "Boreas", I learned that multiple layers can really solidify a painting and make it look more realistic--some of that, no doubt, has to do with the changes and fixes I'm making, but it also has to do with the thicker paint and the various layers interacting even though they aren't "traditional glazes". (Which is something I need to work on in the future, too, using thicker paint.)

It strikes me, too, that my paintings of late have been much more "unified" than previous. I don't even know why, though I expect that it has much to do with using a greater range of values and also properly mixing my colors. (I'm sad to realize how *little* color mixing I've often done in the past!)

No doubt I could go on and on with this, but perhaps it is time to quit while I'm behind. :)

~!Carey

WV.Artistry
10-28-2004, 03:53 PM
There's more than one of us devoting time to each painting thinking about what "not" to do.

A good choice of words about his "idealization".

I think painting, to some degree, is a mirror of the way you see things. And after that, it's a perspective of the way you want the mirror to see things your way.

SallyAnn
10-29-2004, 05:34 PM
Im still lurking around waiting for further updates as Im really enjoying watching things progress.

Carey, I can totally understand your thoughts on your progress, what you have learned, what you still have to learn, as I am finding the same thing trying to finish my bouguerau. I would never have in a million years attempted to copy a master until I came to WC. Even if at the end of the day its not perfect, I still feel I have pushed myself which is better than staying stagnant. While I read as much as I can, I still feel for me, the learning comes in actually trying to "do". The nice days are the ones when you find a little bit of your painting and go.. wow.. that worked! :D

Cant wait to see your next painting!!!!!

Great job everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RhiannonJ
11-01-2004, 03:11 PM
Here's where I am with "Ophelia". I started on my underpainting Saturday. Worked on it for about six hours yesterday! You talk about sore feet and legs! :D

That face seemed to take me forever until I got it to a point where I was somewhat satisfied. I'm not quite satisfied with her eyes. I think their off a bit. And her mouth still needs some work but the basics are there and those are things I can adjust later. I decided on a palette of Raw Umber, Terra Rosa, Lamp Black and white. This is TOTALLY new for me. I figured it was time to really stretch myself. I'm not going after hi-realism here so the underpainting won't be really detailed. After I finish the underpainting than I'll glaze in areas where I see fit and will also work with opaque paint in some areas so I can get some nice soft edges.

Will hopefully have another update later this week.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Nov-2004/32418-Ophelia_underpainting_01b.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Nov-2004/32418-Ophelia_underpainting_01b_c.jpg

Rhi

dcorc
11-04-2004, 06:33 AM
Great things happening here, particularly Rhi and Carey with "Windflowers" and "Boreas" (Richard - have another go at the head study - I think it's a really interesting idea to take a Master study drawing and to try to bring it to completion)

I have a little news - I said some while back that I wanted to have a go at "Hylas and the nymphs", more or less actual size - well, yesterday, I got some stretchers etc, to make a canvas 60 x 38 inches - I'm hoping to assemble it at some point in the next few days.

Dave

RhiannonJ
11-04-2004, 09:11 AM
Dave,

Wow!! 60x38 inches! That thing would take up half my area where I paint! :D It would take me months to finish a painting of that size. Ophelia's on a 24x36 and that's going to take me well into December. :D

Have you started thinking about how you'll go about approaching it yet?

Rhi

Jaysen
11-04-2004, 10:01 AM
Great things happening here, particularly Rhi and Carey with "Windflowers" and "Boreas" (Richard - have another go at the head study - I think it's a really interesting idea to take a Master study drawing and to try to bring it to completion)

I have a little news - I said some while back that I wanted to have a go at "Hylas and the nymphs", more or less actual size - well, yesterday, I got some stretchers etc, to make a canvas 60 x 38 inches - I'm hoping to assemble it at some point in the next few days.

Dave

Dave, I've seen that painting in real life, it's truly amazing and one of my favourite paintings. Good luck and have fun.

dcorc
11-04-2004, 12:26 PM
Wow!! 60x38 inches! That thing would take up half my area where I paint! :D

Same here - it's a bit crazy, really - but I thought it would be fun - I've never painted anything that large before. It will probably be my project for the holiday period.

How am I going to approach it? With some trepidation - and big brushes :p

Dave

RhiannonJ
11-04-2004, 01:18 PM
Same here - it's a bit crazy, really - but I thought it would be fun - I've never painted anything that large before. It will probably be my project for the holiday period.

How am I going to approach it? With some trepidation - and big brushes :p

Dave

You really should take some pictures of your studio space when you get this set up. :D I've never painted anything larger than a 24x36. I'd have to take out a loan for paint! :p

Hope you've got plenty of 2" brushes on hand. :D

Rhi

Carey Griffel
11-04-2004, 05:06 PM
Oooo, Dave, that is sooo cool! I think that you can really have a lot of fun with this and I'm really looking forward to it!!

Rhi, wow! Sorry it's taken me so long to comment here, but I'm really liking your painting so far! Her face is simply *gorgeous*! And I *really* like the color of your underpainting. Already you're doing so well!! :clap: I'll be very interested to see the subsequent layers come onto this and also to know your thoughts on working in this type of a method, especially as it's so different for you.

:clap: :)

~!Carey

RhiannonJ
11-04-2004, 05:19 PM
Thanks Carey. I've made some minor adjustments to her face since that post. Also adjusted the shadows around her neck and tweaked "her" right shoulder a tad.

She's coming along great! I'm working my way down the canvas and right now I'm about two inches below her breasts. :D I tell ya, this is an awesome experience! I am learning SO much about values for one.. and I'm just loving this medium! Right now I'm just using a 5:1 ratio of turp/stand oil. Love the way adding just that wee bit of stand oil just makes the paint glide onto the canvas!!

I'll be posting another update probably Sunday. Won't be painting much Saturday. Mom's coming down and she's taking me out to dinner for my birthday. :p :D

Rhi

WV.Artistry
11-04-2004, 06:20 PM
(Richard - have another go at the head study - I think it's a really interesting idea to take a Master study drawing and to try to bring it to completion)

Dave

Dave,

After my failed attempt at that particular sketch, and subsequent destruction with paint, I spoke with Master Waterhouse.

He said he didn't paint it because it was such a pain in the tuckass(sp?).

"Rich . . . I mean, really, look at the lack of definition . . . I thought about getting it right again, and it just ain't gonna happen! Maybe I got lucky. So let's go look at naked women in the water, cool?"

The sheer quantity of paint I used with the rendition of "Narcissus" makes me hesitant to revisit a Waterhouse. He had no qualms about diminishing my paint supplies . . . the effect is not achieved economically. However, I did learn something from studying his other works that is applicable to Vermeer, and I'll use it (with caution) in my current conversation with Raphael and Ingres.

Looking forward to seeing your progress :)

Richard

RhiannonJ
11-04-2004, 06:46 PM
The sheer quantity of paint I used with the rendition of "Narcissus" makes me hesitant to revisit a Waterhouse. He had no qualms about diminishing my paint supplies . . . the effect is not achieved economically. However, I did learn something from studying his other works that is applicable to Vermeer, and I'll use it (with caution) in my current conversation with Raphael and Ingres.

Richard

Richard,

First thing I'd like to say is that you didn't fail at that sketch. I'm sure you learned something from the process, so how indeed can it be a failure if you learned?

I stumbled across a site where techniques of the masters were discussed and that's what led me into this new venture in painting "Ophelia".

I don't feel you have to deplenish your supply of paint in painting Waterhouse. Yes, some areas of his paintings are very impasto but from reading this article I'm beginning to feel that he combined glazes, semi-glazes and opaque painting wet-in-wet after his underpainting was completed.

If you're interested you can read up on this info that I came across at http://www.geocities.com/~jlhagan/advanced/chapter6.htm

You're so talented. I'd hate to see you "throw in the towel" with Waterhouse just because you used a lot of paint in reproducing "Narcissus".

Just my humble opinion. :)

Rhi

RhiannonJ
11-04-2004, 06:49 PM
The sheer quantity of paint I used with the rendition of "Narcissus" makes me hesitant to revisit a Waterhouse. He had no qualms about diminishing my paint supplies . . . the effect is not achieved economically. However, I did learn something from studying his other works that is applicable to Vermeer, and I'll use it (with caution) in my current conversation with Raphael and Ingres.

Richard

Somehow my reply was posted twice. The internet gods must be up to their mischief again. :D

Rhi

WV.Artistry
11-07-2004, 03:31 AM
The Winds
Children of the Dawn

The Winds are Immortals who have chosen the air as their bodies. In the oldest myths there are only four Winds: Boreas (North), Eurus (East), Notus (South) and Zephyros (West). Later, the Classical Greeks embellished the stories and added four new entities to represent The Winds: Boreas, Kaikias, Apeliotes, Euros, Notos, Lips, Zephyros and Skiron. See Horologion of Andronicus and ’The Tower of the Winds’.

Boreas (the North Wind) in The Iliad (listed by book and line)
09.004 ...Boreas and Zephyros
20.222 ...the North Wind fell in love
23.195 ...Boreas and Zephyros, north wind and west
23.208 ...Boreas and Zephyros

Boreas in The Odyssey (listed by book and line)
05.295 ...the North Wind et al
05.328 ...the North Wind
05.331 ...the South Wind and the North
05.385 ...the North Wind
13.110 ...the North Wind
14.253 ...on the North Wind
14.299 ...the fair North Wind
19.200 ...the North Wind
19.206 ...snow from the North Wind

dixie
11-10-2004, 12:39 AM
Carey,
Your copy of Boreas is wonderful. :clap: You have alot to be proud of. It's great to see so many talented people here and their copies - too many to mention at this late hour.

I just started my copy of Boreas on Monday. This is my first attempt at copying a master, but I think that it's a great way to learn. I just started painting in January so I'm still pretty green.

The first layer after the initial graphite sketch was done in the Verdaccio (?sp) method using a mixture of ivory black and pthalo green, thinned with turp.

The first color glaze layer was done with all transparent colors.

So far, I estimate that I've got about 5 hours invested so far. It's obvious that I need to fix the jaw line and the inner area of the right arm, so that's what I'll do next.

There will be another layer of glazes or two, and then the opaque color layer and highlights.

Sorry about the quality of the photos...I've got to work on resizing them without them looking digitalized.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Nov-2004/51231-boreas2.JPG

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Nov-2004/51231-boreasface.JPG

dcorc
11-10-2004, 05:03 PM
Just to show my canvas for "Hylas and the Nymphs"

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Nov-2004/30792-bigcanvas.jpg

It's cotton duck 60x38 inches, sized with PVA, 1 coat of acrylic primer brushed on, followed by 4 coats "trowelled" with a painting knife to fill most of the grain, and then 1 thin coat of 50/50 Michael Harding Cremnitz White/W&N Griffin Alkyd Titanium White.

I'm intending to start the painting towards the end of November. :)

Dave

WV.Artistry
11-10-2004, 07:49 PM
Just to show my canvas for "Hylas and the Nymphs"

Dave

Hylas, Greek name, means Son of Theiodamas.

" When the ship of the Argonauts reached the island of Cios, Hylas, the young and handsome companion of Hercules, was sent ashore in search of water. He discovered a fountain, but the nymphs of the place were so enchanted by his beauty that they pulled him to the depths of their watery abode, and in spite of the cries of Hercules which made the shores reverberate with the name Hylas, the young man was never seen again. "

I'll be interested in your thoughts, planning, and progress with this. It looks quite challenging.

artbabe21
11-10-2004, 07:49 PM
Even though I haven't commented lately I am watching with baited breath since Waterhouse is MY TOTAL FAVE & all of you are doing incredible work! :wave:

Dave....you have a BIGGEEE there & I will be anxious to see it come to life!! :)

Mikey
11-10-2004, 07:54 PM
I'll definitely watch out for this one Dave.

Mikey

RhiannonJ
11-13-2004, 04:37 PM
Here's an update of "Ophelia". Underpainting is taking me quite some time. I don't have the luxury of painting for hours each day so I work on it when I can. Still lots to do but I hope to finish the underpainting in about a week or so. No hurry. This is my year-end grand finale. :D Besides that I am learning SO much from this one and can't wait til I get to the glazing, etc.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Nov-2004/32418-Ophelia_underpainting_02.jpg

Rhi

WV.Artistry
11-13-2004, 05:30 PM
. . . This is my year-end grand finale. :D
Rhi

I feel the same about something I'm working on. It's like submitting a thesis so I can graduate.

If you don't mind a compliment, there's a marked improvement in your sense of values here -- the underpainting must be forcing you into that with its limited palette.

Good work.

Carey Griffel
11-13-2004, 06:37 PM
If you don't mind a compliment...

:eek: Oh no! Now Rhi won't be fit to live with! :D :wink2: No, just kidding! I, too, think that you're doing great here, Rhi!! I love the color you've got going...not a "normal" color for an underpainting (ie, not just green or sienna)...very nice! Are you finding it easier in regards to your values?

Dixie, forgot to reply after I saw your work...nice to see someone else here! ;) I completely agree, there's no better way to learn than to do copies! It took me a good long while to discover that on my own, so I think you're definitely ahead of the game! Looking forward to more progress on yours!

~!Carey

RhiannonJ
11-13-2004, 09:47 PM
Richard, thanks for the lovely compliment. And yes, I think deciding on doing this underpainting is really teaching me a LOT about values. First time I've done an underpainting of this sort and I know it won't be the last time. :D I also love working with the turp/stand oil medium. Makes such a difference rather than using straight turp as your underpainting. Richard, you do such awesome work. I've been following your latest piece (Woman with a Veil) and she's coming along great!

Carey, it felt strange at first working my values with such a limited palette (terra rosa, raw umber, a tad of lamp black and white) but now I feel I have a better sense of what I'm doing.

I still have quite a bit to do on it. Looking at her face I think it's a bit too full and her forehead is a bit too low so I'll probably adjust that later. Funny, it doesn't look that full in the actual painting. Maybe I pulled it outta whack when I was doing some tweaks in Photoshop. :D I won't bother adding in a lot of the background detail. I'll be working that in with opaque paint. What I'm thinking is glazing and working with opaque paint simultaneously. Least that's my game plan at the moment. I'll study the original painting in the book I have before getting started on the colour. I got myself a magnifying glass so I can really get a good close up look at it. :D

Rhi

WV.Artistry
11-13-2004, 10:24 PM
Looking at her face . . .

Rhi

I won't commit Dave to making a suggestion with photoshop -- but I think a single vertical swipe of dark paint along the bottom of her right jaw is in order. The deft stroke will lower her testosterone :)

OT: I submitted 3 pieces to the "Best of Orlando" exhibit, 1 made it to the wall past the jurors . . . Narcisuss was rejected. Ah well.

dcorc
11-13-2004, 11:52 PM
Rhi - it's coming along beautifully - I think her face may be a little broad, but it's misleading - when there's some colour on the cheeks, the form will round out markedly, I suspect.

Richard - I'm sorry to hear Narcissus was rejected (though Echo may derive some slight satisfaction from the irony of that :p )

I'm intending to start the painting towards the end of November. :)

I've changed my mind:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Nov-2004/30792-hylas.jpg

Dave

RhiannonJ
11-14-2004, 11:28 AM
I won't commit Dave to making a suggestion with photoshop -- but I think a single vertical swipe of dark paint along the bottom of her right jaw is in order. The deft stroke will lower her testosterone :)

OT: I submitted 3 pieces to the "Best of Orlando" exhibit, 1 made it to the wall past the jurors . . . Narcisuss was rejected. Ah well.

Richard, good to hear that one of your pieces made it past the jurors but sorry to hear about Narcissus. Also, can you somehow show me where exactly where on the right side of her jaw you're referring to?

Dave, maybe you should handle this one in Photoshop. :D Nice start to Hylas!! Are you going to be one of those people that finish this in a matter of a few weeks? :D :p

Rhi

dcorc
11-14-2004, 11:49 AM
Dave... Nice start to Hylas!! Are you going to be one of those people that finish this in a matter of a few weeks? :D :p

Rhi

What, like my other paintings? :p :o :D

Dave

dixie
11-14-2004, 01:54 PM
I was able to spend a couple more hours on Boreas, but still have tons to do.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Nov-2004/51231-boreasprogress.JPG

Kathy

RhiannonJ
11-14-2004, 06:06 PM
RhiannonJ
Dave... Nice start to Hylas!! Are you going to be one of those people that finish this in a matter of a few weeks?

Rhi
What, like my other paintings? :p :o :D

Dave

I take that as a definite...NO! :D :p ;) I just can't imagine completing a painting of not only that size, but of that complexity in a matter of a few weeks! Waterhouse probably spent months on that painting. :)

Rhi

RhiannonJ
11-14-2004, 06:09 PM
Kathy, Your "Boreas" is coming along great! Keep at it, girl! I too have learned a LOT from copying paintings from Waterhouse. "Ophelia" is now my third. Think after this I may try a Bougie sometime next year but I've got this beautiful photo of my Mom that was taken for her graduation back in 1937 that I want to do next.

Can't wait to see how you progress with this one! :clap:

Rhi

dcorc
11-14-2004, 06:18 PM
Kathy - your "Boreas" is looking great, there - Waterhouse was really into the whole drapery thing :)

Dave

dcorc
11-14-2004, 06:45 PM
Update on mine - just a block-in with turpsy paint - it's a very different experience to my usual scale of painting - just scrubbing in large areas of thin paint to get some sort of orientation - but it's very satisfying as it's so relaxed!

Bad photo :(

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Nov-2004/30792-hylas2b.jpg

Dave

RhiannonJ
11-14-2004, 11:15 PM
Dave,

Are you just sorta winging this one or are you attempting to actually duplicate Waterhouse in his style and technique? Just curious.

Rhi

dcorc
11-15-2004, 03:19 AM
Dave,

Are you just sorta winging this one or are you attempting to actually duplicate Waterhouse in his style and technique? Just curious.

Rhi

:confused: Well - given that the painted studies and incomplete works seemed to me to be broadly blocked-in in colour with thin paint using pretty big brushes, followed I'd guess by a second pass with thicker paint, but still applied for the most part pretty broadly - I'd sort of hoped that I was attempting to duplicate Waterhouse in style and technique - from your question, though, it sounds like you're not convinced? :)

Dave

dcorc
11-15-2004, 06:54 AM
I hope it will turn out better, anyway, than this far east "copy" !:
http://www.paintings-oil.com/Hylas-and-the-Nymphs-john-waterhouse.htm

:eek: :rolleyes: :(

Dave

RhiannonJ
11-15-2004, 09:26 AM
I hope it will turn out better, anyway, than this far east "copy" !:
http://www.paintings-oil.com/Hylas-and-the-Nymphs-john-waterhouse.htm

:eek: :rolleyes: :(

Dave

That's got to be one of the worse copies of a Master painting I've seen yet! I have no doubt that yours will turn out MUCH better! :)

Rhi

RhiannonJ
11-15-2004, 10:06 AM
:confused: Well - given that the painted studies and incomplete works seemed to me to be broadly blocked-in in colour with thin paint using pretty big brushes, followed I'd guess by a second pass with thicker paint, but still applied for the most part pretty broadly - I'd sort of hoped that I was attempting to duplicate Waterhouse in style and technique - from your question, though, it sounds like you're not convinced? :)

Dave

Maybe he didn't approach his actual paintings in the same manner as he did his studies though. Maybe his studies were just that... a visual aid to be used in creating his larger works.

I came across some material online and have been wondering if maybe he did an underpainting and then glazed over it with transparent paint and worked into them, while wet or tacky, with opaque paints. Check out this info: http://www.geocities.com/~jlhagan/advanced/chapter6.htm. Fascinating stuff!

Anyways, that's what I'm giving my best shot at with "Ophelia". :D Guess we'll never really know for sure how he created his works but we can do our best and learn from it. I know I'm learning LOTS in doing this underpainting.

Rhi

Carey Griffel
11-15-2004, 01:07 PM
Dave, I'm so excited to see your start here!! Very good going! I will be watching your progress avidly!

Richard, so glad to hear that at least one of your paintings made it! Not that I'm surprized... ;)

Dixie, looks like you've got a great flesh color being built up there. Good job!

In regards to how Waterhouse painted, I have to say that I agree with Dave. Of course, trying to know how most Masters painted is nearly impossible and it ends up as a subjective endeavor on all of our parts. Rhi may be very much correct. It's entirely possible (if not even probable) that the studies Waterhouse did were, in fact, "only studies." The only way to know better is to look at the actual paintings...and even then, who knows. I, of course, have never had the honor of seeing one of his paintings in real life; however, from what I understand, the paint is so thick that I would say he didn't use glazes, at least not generally speaking, glazing in the "traditional" sense. Also, while it's certainly far, far from impossible, you generally *don't* end up with an impressionistic piece using a total underpainting...and much of Waterhouse is quite impressionistic.

That's my two cents, wrong as it may be. :) I'm very much enjoying the discussion here on his possible methods; it's great to have all these viewpoints being argued, hopefully it'll help other people in some small way.

~!Carey

RhiannonJ
11-15-2004, 06:29 PM
Carey,

I'm beginning to feel that your assessment of Waterhouse *not* doing a detailed underpainting is correct. Oh well, at least I'm learning LOADS about values with Ophelia. :D It's obvious though that he didn't exactly use the direct painting method because his paintings often consist of ten layers or so.

I guess the thing that struck me with reading about the venetian method was the fact that after the underpainting was done and they started glazing with transparent paints, then they would work in thick opaque paint while that layer was still wet or tacky. Using this method doesn't necessarily mean they would glaze over the entire painting... just the areas of shadows. Guess that's what made me to try something totally different with Ophelia. Who knows in which direction I'll go next time. :D

I had posted a message in the johnwilliamwaterhouse.com message board back around the end of October asking about his techniques and one guy responded saying that he felt he used the direct method. Maybe so, but if he did use that method, he did it layer upon layer. I'd love to know what medium Waterhouse used.

What an adventure I've gotten myself into with *this* one! I'm savouring every precious moment of it. I'm beginning to appreciate the "journey" through the painting rather than rushing through it just to have it finished.

Rhi

dcorc
11-15-2004, 06:54 PM
I'm not sure "direct" necessarily equates to "alla prima" - I think "direct" implies that one's trying to hit the riight colour etc straight away, and painting with opaque paint - there's nothing to say that one can't refine the work in layers. If we look at unfinished works by a variety of these late 19thC painters - Alma-Tadema, Waterhouse, or Sargent, for example - we can see that there's just the quickest indication of edges drawn directly in paint, and then areas get blocked-in in colour, and reworked as needed in layers, or by scraping back and repainting.

The surfaces of the Waterhouse paintings I've seen are pretty matte, and paint is applied broadly and thickly - some areas are surprisingly sketchy and little more than blocked-in when viewed closely. Some of the foreground reeds in the Lady of Shallott for example are just big bold slashes of thick paint.

Dave

Carey Griffel
11-15-2004, 08:24 PM
I'm not sure "direct" necessarily equates to "alla prima" - I think "direct" implies that one's trying to hit the riight colour etc straight away, and painting with opaque paint - there's nothing to say that one can't refine the work in layers.

Right on...*exactly* my feelings. This is basically what I'm doing right now and I'm feeling that it's more or less the type of painting that I wish to aspire to...(though I have a lot more experimenting before I reach a definite conclusion like that!). I confess to getting a little annoyed at how many painters, particularly beginning painters, believe that "painting in layers" need equate with "glazing". I suppose the same can be said for "direct" painting where people believe that the painting need be 100% completed at first shot. There's certainly something to be said for alla prima and I certainly don't wish to discredit that method by any means, but, frankly, I'm finding that, personally, one layer just doesn't cut it. Sure, most of that has to do with my ineptitude, but it also has something to do with how multiple layers just look more substantial.

Painting in one layer, you have to rely 100% on the color achieving that look of reality (however far into reality you are striving to take it). Painting in opaque layers, you have the benefit of the characteristics of the paint allowing your image to be developed, to grow, to be real. I guess that this is also one reason I'm not a fan of glazing "in the traditional sense" (though some of what I do could be argued to be glazing, I hardly think it counts in the normal use). Glazing, often, creates the jeweled look of stained glass...pretty in proper use, yes, but not *real* to my eye, it almost always yells "fake!" to me. Usually, my eye can't get around it. I don't mean to discredit those who can use it to good effect...Bill's Tutti Fruiti, for example, is simply breathtaking...I'd have to see it in real life to see if it's "real" looking to me, but he is so skilled that I imagine that it does look true. At any rate, glazing is not for me.

Don't get discouraged in your own copy, Rhi (though it doesn't sound like you are), you are learning tons and doing your best to copy a legitimate method that is new for you, whether or not Waterhouse did it. And there's certainly no way of knowing if he used it or not. He may have. Either way, it's perfectly valid and I'm enjoying your progress! :)

~!Carey

Biki
11-16-2004, 04:08 AM
kathy - i love your rendition of this. congratulations. :clap:

rhi - girlfriend - you are jumping ahead in leaps & bounds. this is fabulous already & is so far ahead of your past efforts even. go girl.!!

dave - is that you in the pool with all those nymphs :D ( in your mind, i mean). it looks like a marvellous start. this one, i want to see FINISHED - ok?

RhiannonJ
11-16-2004, 10:12 AM
Don't get discouraged in your own copy, Rhi (though it doesn't sound like you are), you are learning tons and doing your best to copy a legitimate method that is new for you, whether or not Waterhouse did it. And there's certainly no way of knowing if he used it or not. He may have. Either way, it's perfectly valid and I'm enjoying your progress! :)

~!Carey

Moi??... discouraged?!! :eek: :D Hell no! I'm having too much fun and am learning so much how could I get discouraged!! I have no idea what I'm gonna do when I start with colour on Ophelia but it'll be a blast ... I know that for sure! :D

Rhi

RhiannonJ
11-16-2004, 12:06 PM
I'm not sure "direct" necessarily equates to "alla prima" - I think "direct" implies that one's trying to hit the riight colour etc straight away, and painting with opaque paint - there's nothing to say that one can't refine the work in layers. If we look at unfinished works by a variety of these late 19thC painters - Alma-Tadema, Waterhouse, or Sargent, for example - we can see that there's just the quickest indication of edges drawn directly in paint, and then areas get blocked-in in colour, and reworked as needed in layers, or by scraping back and repainting.

The surfaces of the Waterhouse paintings I've seen are pretty matte, and paint is applied broadly and thickly - some areas are surprisingly sketchy and little more than blocked-in when viewed closely. Some of the foreground reeds in the Lady of Shallott for example are just big bold slashes of thick paint.

Dave

I think "direct" painting originally began as doing a painting as one single application with opaque paint, but I think over time different variations of this method have developed. Just my two cents worth. :p :D

Rhi

sbeckett
11-21-2004, 11:02 PM
Destiny 18x24 WIP
1st choice was "At Capri" but I'm not sure I trust those images on A/R -looked too hazy at the lower end. These are 3 sessions, everything pretty indirect except the sea and ships. The dress was today and posed a challenge -how do you glaze up and down values at the same time- where they meet you get gray mud. Exasperating, too much like watercolor. 2 or 3 sessions to go -head and hands will be in one swoop (NOT indirect).

RhiannonJ
11-22-2004, 02:35 PM
Well, I'm finally finished "Ophelia's" underpainting!! Woo-hoo!!! :clap:

I learned SO much from this process!! Think I kinda like it. :D I'll let her sit for a few days to let the paint dry and do some more study work before proceeding. I'll be glazing and working in opaque paint at the same time so it should be interesting to see how this comes along.

Gotta admit, I'm a bit apprehensive about laying in the colour because it already looks pretty darn good! :D

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Nov-2004/32418-Ophelia_underpainting_final.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Nov-2004/32418-Ophelia_underpainting_fcu2.jpg

Rhi

RhiannonJ
11-22-2004, 02:41 PM
Destiny 18x24 WIP
1st choice was "At Capri" but I'm not sure I trust those images on A/R -looked too hazy at the lower end. These are 3 sessions, everything pretty indirect except the sea and ships. The dress was today and posed a challenge -how do you glaze up and down values at the same time- where they meet you get gray mud. Exasperating, too much like watercolor. 2 or 3 sessions to go -head and hands will be in one swoop (NOT indirect).

Sbeckett,

Your copy of "Destiny" is coming along great! And you did this in only 3 sessions! Wow! And you expect to finish it in another 2-3 sessions? *faint* :D I think you've got a good start on her dress. I would try lying in your shadows and mid-values first and then going back and put in the highlights.

Can't wait to see how she turns out.

Rhi

WV.Artistry
11-22-2004, 03:22 PM
Very nicely done Rhiannon!

artbabe21
11-22-2004, 03:35 PM
Rhi! I am SO IMPRESSED with your painting expertise! This is gorgeous!
You're a very patient woman!!

sbeckett....excellent work on your Waterhouse, this is one of my very favorites!! :)

RhiannonJ
11-22-2004, 03:54 PM
Thanks Richard and Cathleen. I'm really pleased with her thusfar. I'll probably start glazing in my shadow areas next and then while that's still tacky come in with opaque paint and do the mid tones and shadows. Not quite sure yet. I'm basically following the Venetian technique.

Cath, I gotta admit, even *I* was getting a bit impatient as to getting this done. I had to keep telling myself "it's the journey" and there's no need to rush. :D

Richard, any suggestions? You've got more experience with this kinda stuff than I do. :)

Rhi

WV.Artistry
11-22-2004, 05:09 PM
Richard, any suggestions?

Rhi

Yeah, I suggest you teach me how to paint . . . this underpainting color scheme and some of your values are jurst freaking knumbing. Did you post your palette?

Oer' in my eclipse, I was able to correct a few things during glazing . . in the face especially. I used a goat hair brush with broad house-painter strokes to get a better plumb line, improve solid geometry, and the lay of the light. I felt pretty stupid doing this at the time and was really glad nobody saw me doing it. It felt like blasphemy. Shhh . . .

I tried to understand my problems before going into the glaze. It helped. I still have problems, but I've got a coffee pot, and I'll figure em' out.

A lot of your painting is beautiful work and I hope you don't muck it up ;)

But . . . her face, neck, collar area, and right hand should be looked at. One or two lily pads in the back. Lily pads are tough.

And that's a tough angle for the face. I'd suggest put it down for a day, then re-look it with fresh and critical eyes. The edits might come to you. And if they don't (go ahead and hate me now), sometimes the only way to make a face work, is to lightly scrape it off with a putty knife and repaint it. It's not that big of deal really -- I've done it once or twice. So, I'm not saying anything bad, okay?

You'll figure it out. But if you need help, some of those people lurking in the sketch or portrait forum have anatomical mastery, especially regarding facial features.

:)

RhiannonJ
11-22-2004, 05:40 PM
Yeah, I suggest you teach me how to paint . . . this underpainting color scheme and some of your values are jurst freaking knumbing. Did you post your palette?

Oer' in my eclipse, I was able to correct a few things during glazing . . in the face especially. I used a goat hair brush with broad house-painter strokes to get a better plumb line, improve solid geometry, and the lay of the light. I felt pretty stupid doing this at the time and was really glad nobody saw me doing it. It felt like blasphemy. Shhh . . .

I tried to understand my problems before going into the glaze. It helped. I still have problems, but I've got a coffee pot, and I'll figure em' out.

A lot of your painting is beautiful work and I hope you don't muck it up ;)

But . . . her face, neck, collar area, and right hand should be looked at. One or two lily pads in the back. Lily pads are tough.

And that's a tough angle for the face. I'd suggest put it down for a day, then re-look it with fresh and critical eyes. The edits might come to you. And if they don't (go ahead and hate me now), sometimes the only way to make a face work, is to lightly scrape it off with a putty knife and repaint it. It's not that big of deal really -- I've done it once or twice. So, I'm not saying anything bad, okay?

You'll figure it out. But if you need help, some of those people lurking in the sketch or portrait forum have anatomical mastery, especially regarding facial features.

:)

Richard,

Looking at your "Woman In a Veil" I really don't think you need me to teach *you* how to paint. :)

My palette for the underpainting was Terra Verte, Raw Umber, Titanium White and sometimes just a tad of Lamp Black.

This underpainting isn't your "typical" detailed graisaille underpainting since I won't be glazing over the entire painting, just shadow areas. The other areas I'll work in semi-transparent and opaque paint while the medium is still wet or tacky.

At this point I'm not too concerned with her face, neck and collar area... lily pads etc. I can make corrections when I start the overpainting... and yea, that right hand gave me fits but same thing, I can tweak that later.

I'm not brave enough to scrape paint off yet and I have absolutely NO intentions of mucking this one up. :D I've spent too much time on it already. She will turn out looking absolutely beautiful! ;)

Rhi

dcorc
11-22-2004, 08:37 PM
Rhi - that's looking great!! I agree there are a few minor quibbles, but I also agree they can be adjusted as you go, much will resolve in the overpainting.

One piece of practical advice though - give it at least several days to dry well before starting any glazing work on it, don't try and hurry at this stage, so you don't risk lifting/resolubilising the the underpainting. :)

Dave

RhiannonJ
11-22-2004, 09:16 PM
Rhi - that's looking great!! I agree there are a few minor quibbles, but I also agree they can be adjusted as you go, much will resolve in the overpainting.

One piece of practical advice though - give it at least several days to dry well before starting any glazing work on it, don't try and hurry at this stage, so you don't risk lifting/resolubilising the the underpainting. :)

Dave

Dave,

Yep, I know there are lots of tweaks to be made but like I've said, I feel they can be dealt with when I begin the overpainting.

I don't think I'll have anything to worry about letting this dry and hurry along with it. For one, I want to do a bit of contemplative study work, and two, I'm gonna have to move my easel into my bedroom during the Christmas holidays cos I've gotta make room for my tree! :D

Rhi

WV.Artistry
11-23-2004, 04:43 AM
Rhi

Since you once showed me your Langnickels ;) I'll post my coffee bucket of brushes at completion. I'm quite sure after that, I'll be barred from any and all art organizations around the world as a matter of principle . . . because I've never learned to properly clean them.

I've been experimenting with Venetian Turpentine at this stage in my piece, the post-glaze. It smells very bad, it's very weird, but it has an interesting effect. It's thickness is somewhere between stand oil and neo-megalip.

The framer said he could get her done if I finish by the end of the month, and then I'll submit her to an exhibit . . . wish me luck. I'll be content if she makes the wall. The competition is very stiff. Last year I submitted only one piece, "Magog", whom I believe is another Margaret. And she was aquired by an assistant at the Orlando Museum of Art. There's only three people that like that painting -- I'm glad she found a good home.

I've got another Waterhouse picked out, one from his recluse years. A fitting end to my self-imposed years of hiding from the world.

But I want to get a new handle first, something I can live with.

What brand of Terra Verte?

Richard

Carey Griffel
11-23-2004, 12:46 PM
sbeckett, great choice and it looks like you're coming along with it splendidly! Thanks ever so much for showing us your progress here! :)

Wanted everyone to know that I've enjoyed reading your posts here! :) Rhi, you have such a darling start (okay, loads more than a start!!) here...there is already a feeling of such depth to the painting. Heck, there's *always* tweaking to be done--tis the nature of the thing--looking at the big picture, however, it's amazing!!

Alas, I will not have another Waterhouse done by Christmas...no big surprize! :D Perhaps it's for the best. I have some...wandering around I need to do for a while, I think. My Bougereau from October is stuck where it is at the moment and I think I need to do something...radically different. Not sure what. I need to do some exploring...

~!Carey

RhiannonJ
11-23-2004, 02:39 PM
Rhi

Since you once showed me your Langnickels ;) I'll post my coffee bucket of brushes at completion. I'm quite sure after that, I'll be barred from any and all art organizations around the world as a matter of principle . . . because I've never learned to properly clean them.

I've been experimenting with Venetian Turpentine at this stage in my piece, the post-glaze. It smells very bad, it's very weird, but it has an interesting effect. It's thickness is somewhere between stand oil and neo-megalip.

The framer said he could get her done if I finish by the end of the month, and then I'll submit her to an exhibit . . . wish me luck. I'll be content if she makes the wall. The competition is very stiff. Last year I submitted only one piece, "Magog", whom I believe is another Margaret. And she was aquired by an assistant at the Orlando Museum of Art. There's only three people that like that painting -- I'm glad she found a good home.

I've got another Waterhouse picked out, one from his recluse years. A fitting end to my self-imposed years of hiding from the world.

But I want to get a new handle first, something I can live with.

What brand of Terra Verte?

Richard

Richard,

Get some of that Masterpiece soap stuff. Works great on brushes!

I got some of that venetian turp. I'll be using it as a part of my medium when I start glazing etc. I'm following Bill Martin's recipe. I haven't opened mine yet but I heard it smells like Christmas trees. :D

Good luck with entering your veiled woman at the exhibit. I sure don't see why they wouldn't want her. She's gonna turn out wonderful!

Oh btw, I mentioned I used Terre Verte in my underpainting. I must've had a momentary brain freeze. I actually used Windsor/Newton's Terra Rosa! :D

Rhi

RhiannonJ
11-23-2004, 02:42 PM
Wanted everyone to know that I've enjoyed reading your posts here! :) Rhi, you have such a darling start (okay, loads more than a start!!) here...there is already a feeling of such depth to the painting. Heck, there's *always* tweaking to be done--tis the nature of the thing--looking at the big picture, however, it's amazing!!

Alas, I will not have another Waterhouse done by Christmas...no big surprize! :D Perhaps it's for the best. I have some...wandering around I need to do for a while, I think. My Bougereau from October is stuck where it is at the moment and I think I need to do something...radically different. Not sure what. I need to do some exploring...

~!Carey

Thanks Carey. I'm pleased so far. I'll be letting her sit for about five days or so. I wanna let her dry really well before getting started on the bit of glazing I'll be doing.

I think it's good to mix it up. I need to do that otherwise I get bored. :) Why not try a winter scene. That might be fun! I know whatever you chose to do it'll turn out awesome, girlfriend!!

Rhi

WV.Artistry
11-23-2004, 06:39 PM
Richard,

Good luck with entering your veiled woman at the exhibit. I sure don't see why they wouldn't want her. She's gonna turn out wonderful!

Rhi

Thanks for the vote of confidence . . . but I have my sighs.

Here's the Waterhouse I want study.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Nov-2004/50986-Gathering_1.jpg

Annick
11-23-2004, 08:12 PM
Very nice choice, Richard, so different from the other ones...

Annick

WV.Artistry
11-24-2004, 05:28 PM
Very nice choice, Richard, so different from the other ones...

Annick

Annick, bonjour!
it's nice to see you posting again . . . the landscapes, beautiful! and the setting for the vase, unique.

Dave, fyi . . .
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3655821055&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RSCC_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores

Onwardb
11-25-2004, 07:04 AM
Oh my goodness, everyone! These are so terrific! :clap: :clap: :clap:

I've been following all of your progress from the beginning and loving every step of your work.

I'm most impressed, and very inspired... Though I lack the skills you all have, I sure have the desire to learn - that mixed with *no ego*, or maybe just simply *no brains* :wink2: allows me to deliriously go forth and at least try one of these things - outcome be d*mned. I'm sure in doing so I'll learn very, very much...

I've so enjoyed watching; thanks so much for sharing...

Mary

dcorc
11-26-2004, 08:49 AM
OK - update on mine - I was dissatisfied with the drafting of it - and I also realised that the image at ARC is a little cropped on the left and right edges :eek: - I decided to remove some of the block-in, redo those areas, and re-block - I toyed with the idea of redrafting completely to take account of the extra 1.5 ins or so to left and right, and then thought better of that! :)

So here it is, reblocked-in, as it is at the moment, (lots and lots of tweaks needed! :D ) I suppose that to some extent I am just "winging" this - but I suspect from the paint-studies and unfinished Waterhouses, that this is essentially what he did - detailed study drawings (he's already done those for me - thanks, JWW! :p ) but just going in, in paint, for the actual work - my intended plan of action is: a turpsy block in, followed by opaque paint, straight out the tube consistency, painted broadly with bristle brushes, in as many layers as are need to kick things into shape. I may use a stand oil/turpentine medium in latter stages, and do a bit of glazing for adjustments. I'm doing this painting in W&N artists oils (inc Titanium White), plus Michael Harding Cremnitz White (mixed 50/50 with the Titanium White)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Nov-2004/30792-hylas4a.jpg

Dave

WV.Artistry
11-27-2004, 04:19 PM
Dave . . simply a magnificant flow!

The blue (ROFL), man is that an awful color. You don't need it, but I've got an extra tube of blue ochre if you want me to mail it to you.

This beginning is really turning into a looker. Salute!

RhiannonJ
11-28-2004, 10:11 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Nov-2004/30792-hylas4a.jpg

Dave, this is really looking great! I agree with Richard, that blue has gotta go but realize you're just blocking in colour.

Can't wait to see how this one progresses. You've really got the placement nailed!

I haven't worked on Ophelia lately. I'm sure she's dry by now but got busy with the Thanksgiving holiday and then I've been working on a sketch of my Dad for Mom's birthday. :p Hope to get back to her sometime this week. Wish me luck! :D

Rhi