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CindyW
07-19-2005, 09:00 PM
Hi all,
I am now starting to frame my artwork for the first time and intend to frame it as archivally as I can. There's ALOT to think about/prepare/research and the time involved certainly isn't wasted but it'd be great to finally settle a few things and just get on with the framing!! Once all these pieces I've got have finally been framed and ready to go, we'll see how I go about framing again! Maybe the local framer will be my best new friend! :wink2:
I've read through many helpful posts here on WetCanvas as well as online but still have more questions for you all and hopefully, many will benefit from this thread as I will.

I'm using readymade frames, acidfree outer mat, acidfree hidden inner mat for space for falling pastel flakes, artwork attached to 100% rag matboard for the frame package.

I've been reading that artwork should be attached to an archival backing preferably with rice paper and wheat starch and NOT linen hanging tape, which is what I'd LIKE to use since I have some right here in front of me. Supposedly, the adhesives in tape are supposed to be "iffy" through the years, so I've read, and not recommended. Some of my pastel paintings, all on Wallis paper, are relatively small: 5x7, 8x10. Others are as large as 17x18 (so far!). Does anyone have any experience with the wheat starch method? with Wallis paper?

Has anyone ever used acid free photo corners to hold a smaller painting in place rather than tape or the wheat starch and rice paper? I've read about them but not about any real life experience over time with them nor about the max size of paper to be held in place with them without worry.

Also, do any of you tape the inside of the frame with frame sealing tape so the framewood acids and gasses don't touch the acid free mat, matboard, and art paper?

And....should there be a backing paper to seal it up or does the painting need to breath and the backing paper would seal it too much? I would think the back would LOOK nicer papered but if it's a GOOD practice to paper it then I'll do so.

And if some of my frame rabbets are a fraction not deep enough, is there something to use to keep the package secure in the frame? I imagine a backing paper would need to be used for frames that don't quite have enough room for all the layers.

Alot of different ideas and methods for many, I realize. The main idea is to keep the artwork trouble free for customers (and ME!) and desireable with the archival packaging.

Thanks so much for your thoughts!
Cindy

scoller
07-20-2005, 12:58 AM
Hello Cindy,

Starjoy (aka Piper, aka my wife) told me about about your question/s and thought I could be of service. You have some very good ones.

First of all with regards to your matting - a very crucial area since this is where contact is made with the art work. Make sure that ALL the mat is acid free - front, back and core. Crescent's Decorative mats have acid free fronts and backs, however the core is not. Their Rag Mats are acid free through out. I believe all of Artique's, Alphamats, Truguard, and Bainbridge are also acid free through out.

With regards to taping. The frame shop I have been working at this summer does everything archivally (if that is a word). Anyway, we use Framer's Tape II to secure all our pastels, watercolors, and prints to the mat board. Prints are secured with one strip across the top. This will enable them to "breath" and flex.

Regarding taping the edge of the matboard where it meets the frame. You could...but don't need to. Any migration that would take place (and it is doubtful there will be any) is minimal.

With regards to backing boards. We use acid free foam core boards. This is placed over the back of the artwork and matboard and then secured into the frame.

One thing you did not mention was the glass. All the glass we use is designed to keep those nasty UV's out. The ones that do pass through are allowed to leave. Which means a word to the Wise. The UV glass you buy at your local hardware or glass supply store IS NOT the same as that sold by frame shops. Hardware store/glass store glass does not allow the UV rays to leave...which can damage the artwork.

Also, watch buying reflection control or non-glare glass, it can severly mute pastels. Other than conservation clear the only other glass I would use for Piper's work would be museum grade. (Which is very expensive...but also very nice.)

Finally, regarding backing paper. We use standard brown backing paper attached to the frame (unless it is a metal sectional) with ATG tape. By the way we also use ATG to connect the different layers of matboard together.

Hope this answers your questions.

Peace,
Stan

Kitty Wallis
07-20-2005, 01:03 AM
Bing, and interested folks, I've posted an answer in your thread in my forum. See link below

CindyW
07-20-2005, 03:14 AM
Thanks, Stan, Piper, and Kitty...

Stan, very helpful responses, now I'm cooking with MORE questions, if you don't mind....what about the brown backing paper if it's not acid free? And if the migration is minimal for the wooden frame gasses and acids leaching into the matboards and foamcore, what about the matboards whose cores aren't acid free yet ARE acid free where they touch the artwork? What might the difference be with migration of these two areas? I'm a bit confused at where the line is drawn for overkill on the acid free materials. But, hey, when I get this all straight, I'll be flying right through this framing project like a pro! Looking forward to it, yahoo!

I mixed up some Crescent matboards with some 100% rag matboards and now am not sure which is which and not sure now that putting them all together is a good idea...

Yah, I didn't ask about the glass because it was one area that I decided to not purchase, rather going with frames on sale at Target and Kohl's because of that green paper stuff we work for being a little short. Does the UV glass you mentioned go by the name of conservation glass? Can I only get it at frame shops or is there a place online? Scratch that, the shipping cost would be silly beyond reason. Should I let the customer buy their own UV conservation glass, I wonder....seems silly to do all this work to protect a painting as much as possible behind the glass and then dismiss the glass as nonessential in the list of important protection steps.....sigh! It's alot of work, this archival stuff.

Has anyone found that more often than not a customer buys a painting from them and then gets it reframed the way they want? Do you give written instructions for careful reframing requirements for pastels when you sell a painting?

Thanks again!
Cindy

scall0way
07-20-2005, 12:29 PM
Has anyone found that more often than not a customer buys a painting from them and then gets it reframed the way they want? Do you give written instructions for careful reframing requirements for pastels when you sell a painting?

This is a great thread, and one I'm interested in, though I have no anwers as I'm still pretty clueless about framing myself, but I hope to learn! I'd really love to see a step-by-step framing instructional with *pictures* because I'm having trouble visualizing the whole process in my head.

But I can address one comment you make here, just from my own experience. Since I'm a newbie artist, very much still learning, I have no customers, nor have I sold any art. However, as a consumer I have occasionally *bought* art - and when I say occasionally I think I mean two original pictures in my lifetime, and maybe 2-3 prints. At any rate I have *never* bought anything framed, and can't see that, in general, I would. That's because the frame generally adds a whole bunch to the price for what I, as a customer, perceive as very little value. They are almost never framed in a style I like or would choose myself, so why pay lots more money for something I don't even like?

As I said I don't buy much art, but I did buy an oil painting at a local art show about 10 years ago. I just fell in love with this artist's paintings. They were pretty large (maybe about 30x36 inches) and done in a very Impressionistic style, but very light and airy, lovely landscapes. The artist was Vietnamese (and I wish I could recall his name) but the pictures all looked very French. At any rate he was asking $300 for unframed pictures and something like $750 t0 $1000 for the framed ones! Well even $300 was a huge expense for me, but I was so in love with his paintings I just decided I had to bite the bullet. My biggest dilemma was that there were at least three paintings I adored, and I could only afford one.

But I didn't like a single one of his frames, and could not see paying triple the price just to get one, so I bought an unframed painting, and all these years later I love it still, and it hangs in my living room, and actually never has been framed. :)

So, as a customer, I imagine I would always get an unframed picture, but if I even *did* buy one framed it would only be because I adored the frame as well as the picture, so would be hardly likely to redo it - but of course I can't speak for others.

Debbie C.

scoller
07-20-2005, 12:50 PM
Dear Bing,

Your concerns about being acid free and archival in you matting are very good. After all you have worked very hard to produce your artwork and want others to enjoy it for a long time. In doing so you also want to protect it. Then along comes the nasty trio :evil: - acid, ultraviolet and lignin. How does one deal with them? The answer - :D keep them away from your art work

This is one of the roles of matting – protection. To do is effectively your mats need to be totally acid and lignin free. Both of these “nasties” can result in your artwork deteriorating over time. Generally this will occur after about 15+ years. Both acid and lignin are the result of how the paper is made and wood pulp. Mats, which are made of cotton or other plant fibers, are totally free of these.

Which brings us to your confusion on the Crescent boards. Crescent has several varieties of mat boards – Decorative, Rag Mat, and Museum. Ideally you want the facing (color side), core (middle) and back all to be totally acid free (ph neutral) and lignin free. Crescent’s Rag Mat and Museum Mat are, however, the Decorative board does not have an acid free core. Simplest solution – make sure the mat board you are using is totally acid and lignin free. (For a more detailed explanation of what caused the acid and lignin problem check out http://www.framing4yourself.com/ and go to the section on Mat Boards.)

With regards to mixing the archival boards with non-archival boards, I suppose you could as long as the archival board is next to the artwork. The question is “how come?” unless you absolutely want that one color in your matting. It is important to remember that the acid and lignin cause problems when they are in direct contact with the artwork for long periods of time. Keep them from touching directly and your problems are solved.

With regards to the shortage of the green fiber paper – that is how I got into matting and framing. Being schoolteachers we learn to adapt. The cost of a few power tools and mat cutter has more than paid for themselves. Another good source for frames is your local thrift store and garage sales. Remember, the frame is a holder of your artwork it should never overshadow it. Matting is the protector and support.

Before moving on to the glass do you have any questions?

Peace,
Stan

CindyW
07-20-2005, 02:44 PM
Hi Debbie and Stan,
Thanks for your posts!

Debbie, wow, I can't believe a frame would push up a value of a painting from $300 to $750-$1000! Maybe this is a general practice to buy frames that add that much to the price but I'm thinking I'd probably not buy a frame that I valued more than my artwork any time soon! Wow! I'll be asking about that here and there now. My artwork prices without the frame wouldn't jump so dramatically since the frames are store bought at a tiny fraction of the price a framer would most likely charge. Is the price jump something to do with total presentation of the artwork or is it really the artist trying to recoup the cost of a professional framing expense? I can see spending $300+ on a frame for a painting if I was selling the painting unframed for $1,000...but that's a long way off for me!!! Thanks for sharing this.

Hi Stan, really nice of you to share this info. Questions, always. Do you know if Crescent always labels their large sheets of matboard? I've got two separated from my large 100% ragboards and they have the name Crescent stamped on them but if I've got any more mixed in with the ragboards, I surely couldn't tell if they aren't labeled. Didn't know at the time I bought them that Crescent might not be completely archival.

I like your last statement: "Remember, the frame is a holder of your artwork it should never overshadow it. Matting is the protector and support." Good and timely advice for me. Thanks, I DID go to that website the day before looking for info on different kinds of hinges, etc. Very helpful.

What is the difference between the tape you use and the tape Kitty uses?

Huge thanks again!
Cindy

scoller
07-20-2005, 03:22 PM
Cindy,

First the tape. The tape Kitty is talking about is a frabric tape. The tape I use is not. Need to do some investingating in this regard - will let you know.

As checking mats one way to check would be to go to the website metioned earlier and see if your mat matches the color under any of the Decorative Mats. If they do then you know it is not a archival quality mat. Another way is to find a friendly frame shop that will share their "mat specifier" with you. A "mat specifier" has a small sample (approx 1/2 square) of the different colors of the companies mats. We use it to check a customer's mats and the cut outs we forget to label.

As for the price of custom frames...they can vary from around $15.00 to over $1100.00. And that does not count the glass, the matting, nor the fitting.

Peace,
Stan

scall0way
07-20-2005, 04:19 PM
I wish I knew what made the prices for framed and unframed art so different, LOL. Of course I can't claim to be a truly informed consumer as I don't very often look at art with an eye to buy. I have a tiny house and no room to hang much art as most of my free wallspace is taken up by bookcases, and if it's not I'm usually scheming about how to fit another bookcase in there. So if I do have a little free space I figure I may as well show *my* stuff. :D

But the only other original piece I bought over the years, a watercolor which I no longer particularly like, was also bought unframed since the framed works were also about double or triple the prices of the unframed ones.

The ones I've framed however, have been with frames from AC Moore that I got when they were having a 50%-off sale on frames. I bought a whole bunch all at once, in different sizes, average about $20 a frame. Even that is more than I'd like to spend. :D

Debbie C.

scoller
07-20-2005, 08:31 PM
Cindy,

In the midst of getting ready to go to Michigan for our daughter's wedding, I forgot the simpliest way to check a mat. Go to a scrapbooking store and get a pen to check for paper's acidity. These work in the same manner that pen at the store work to check to see if your money is real. Besure to touch only the core of the mat. It will let you know if it is acid free.

Peace,
Stan

CindyW
07-21-2005, 11:55 AM
Debbie, our homes are a great place to show our work, if only to inspire us daily with proof that we are capable of such creativity and can always live an artistic life!!! Yah, I bought frames on great sales, half price, as well. I can't go past an art supply sale knowing that I'll be needing to buy this item in half a year at full price, that's painful! I wonder if you could sell your unwanted watercolor on EBAY and get a good price you were comfortable with. I hear so much about art selling through EBAY, alot of traffic going through that avenue.

Stan, congratulations to you and Piper on your daughter's wedding! Thanks so much for responding even while you were busy packing! You'll both have a wonderful time, I'm sure. When you get a chance when you get back and have a free moment to spare, I have more questions. You know, even if I don't use archival methods each and every time, at least I'll have a clear idea about what is a completely archival package and be able to pass this info onto the customer with understanding. Next is knowing more about pastels and their lightfastness and archival qualities. I use Wallis paper so I've got info from that site about the paper quality. Always a good feeling to be knowledgeable about something one is passionate about. (I think!! or is ignorance bliss?)

I don't know what the test is with a pen. Does the pen ink turn a different color? I'll look this up online in the meantime.

Another question: what is the BEST way to hang a painting? Hooks and wire? Are there lots of different kinds of hooks? Metal jagged bars you nail into the top of the picture? I don't know of any other way to hang, actually.

My husband brought home Lineco Gummed Japanese Hinging Paper Hayaku last night. It says it's acid-free and lignin free and buffered to pH 8.5 and the adhesive is acid-free polymer water reversible and it says it passed the American National Standards Institute, which I will now go check their site for credibility. I'm going to use this for the smaller pieces I have since they aren't that heavy. For larger pieces, there is the suggestion from Kitty and from you and I'm interested in your findings.

Also, that backing paper, if it doesn't touch the artwork and is a layer away, then it should be fine as a cover up on the back? Obviously, you use that and have thought it through. I'll look up ATG tape, see if Charette has it.

And then glass. It sounds like there are alot of choices. I probably won't be buying the top of the line but somewhere in the middle between that and the least protective.

Thanks much,
Cindy

CindyW
07-21-2005, 12:30 PM
Oh, also, does anyone know how to contain a painting package that is too thick for the frame rabbet? I've heard someone mention "offset" in regard to this issue. Are these metal?
Thanks,
Cindy

scoller
07-25-2005, 11:34 AM
Good Day Cindy,

First the wedding was wonderful. The bride was beautiful, the groom handsome, and the church was delightfuly quaint and rustic.

What are offsets. An offset is small bracket usually 1/8 to 1/2 inch in size that is used to hold the frame package in place when gets too large. It performs the same functions as framing points/glazing points - only outside the rabbit. They do come in handy at times. :clap:

As for hanging a picture. My preference is to some hardware we get from our supplier. Will check to see if one can get it commercially. I stay away form the "saw tooth" hangers. Centering is very crucial with them and they do not support the weight well. As for Eye screws - they work well and used them before discovering the hangers from Larson Juhl.

As for the pen...you probably have discover it changes color. Remember test the core only.

Finally, glass. The company we use is Tru-Guard. With regards to UV glass they have three grades all which keep out around 95% of the UV rays. Those that do get through are nottrapped - rather they let those rays out.

1) Framing glass is NOT the same as window glass. Which means do not go to your average hardware/glass shop looking. Window glass that is UV rated does not allow the rays to leave. This meas they can remain trapped and fade the artwork.

2) Which grade to use: No glass is 100% non reflective and allow you to see through it. The laws of physics don't allow for it. What this means is that a non-glare/non-reflective glass is going to mute/or darken how your art work looks. Tru-Gruard has three grades - Conservation Clear, Reflection Control, and Museum. The first two do the same and with diffused lighting the reflections are kept down. By far Museum grade is the way to go...how ever does cost substatially more. The good point is it brights up the artwork - really. To give you an idea of the cost on a 16 X 20 frame - CC is 17.50, RC is 28.00 and Museum is 105.00...and that is just for the glass...matting, frame, and fitting would be more. Bottom line...use Conservation Clear, it does the job without brakeing the bank.

Peace,
Stan

CindyW
07-25-2005, 11:46 AM
Stan, I just happened to be online just as you wrote. Congrats on your daughter's lovely nuptials! Rustic always sounds so inviting to me.

Thankyouthankyouthankyou very much for this valuable information. Immensely appreciated!! I think we covered all the areas.

What's left is aesthetic personal preferences, such as double matting, linen mats, color mats, fillets....oh, are those hard to use? I won't be using them anyways for now since I don't know how they would sit inside the mat when I've got a hidden mat under the top mat and the fillets seem like they would float. Time and experience will tell with all this.

Cindy

CindyW
07-25-2005, 11:50 AM
Rating this 5 stars. Thanks, Stan!
Cindy

CindyW
07-27-2005, 09:47 AM
Hi all,
What about the hooks on walls? Any particular hooks people have found work well vs others? If the work is heavy, I imagine there's a good hook for that vs lighter works. Anyone have framed work fall off the wall for any reason? and what was the solution? brand, type of hook, type of wiring on frame...?
Cindy

scoller
07-27-2005, 10:05 AM
Cindy,

There is nothing worse than having a favorite piece of artwork fall off the wall. Leaving behind a ugly hole, shattered glass, and torn artwork.

The reasons pictures fall off the wall comes down to one of two things - 1) The picture was heavier then the mounting was rated or 2) improper installation in the wall (not at correct angle, improper nail, etc.)

That may sound simplistic. However, it is one area that people often over look in favor of the "right place" to hang artwork. Unfortunately the place you want to hang it may not be the place on the wall that can support it. Also, some artwork in a long landscape frame needs more than one point of support.

That being said here are some guidelines.

1) Buy hooks that go into the wall at 45 degrees.
2) Be sure the hook is rated for the weight of the picture.
3) Long horizontal pictures may need two or more hooks.
4) Be sure that the nail is completely into the wall.
5) Be sure the frame is hanging evenly on the hanger.

Enjoy,
Stan

khourianya
07-27-2005, 10:49 AM
Wow - what an amazing thread. So full of wonderful information. Thank you so much, Stan for taking the time to add it all in for us. I am going to be starting to frame my paintings soon and the info here is quite timely. I have also rated it 5 stars as this is a thread that should be in the library.

Oh and I just thought of a question to add to this. In terms of spacing pastel works, is is more common to just use a hidden mat or is it better to use commercially available spacers?

Piper Ballou
07-27-2005, 11:15 AM
By the way, Stan never mentioned that he hand makes all my frames for my paintings and does a wonderful job. We have so much fun doing all this art work together.
I am really really lucky to have him. (thanks sweetie) :angel:
piper

scoller
07-27-2005, 09:47 PM
Cori,

If you are talking about "floating" a mat - my preferrence is to use scrap mat boards. Not only does this help in recycling it also enables one to vary the space between the mats. Not to mention giving the mat package more body.

If you are talking about placing a spacer in the rabbit - then a commercial spacers are perferred. These have several benefits; 1) they are easy to cut to fit, 2) you get two sizes in one by turning them on their sides, and 3) being dark they are easily hidden in the shadow of the rabbit.

Regarding all the compliments - thank you very much. Much of my learning has been through mistakes. For example - today my boss asked me if a frame had "non glare" glass in it. "Yes'' was the reply. To which she replied, "well, you got it in backwards then." My response, "How can you tell?" "When there is a glare then it is in backwards." :o DUH!

Peace,
Stan

CindyW
07-28-2005, 01:48 AM
Cindy,

First the tape. The tape Kitty is talking about is a frabric tape. The tape I use is not. Need to do some investingating in this regard - will let you know.

Peace,
Stan

Hi Stan,
Did you get time to do any investigating?
Thanks!
Cindy

*Marina*
07-28-2005, 04:10 PM
What a great thread. Thank you Cindy for starting this one and thank you Stan for all the excellent information. I had not got a clue.
Marina

CindyW
07-28-2005, 05:37 PM
Wow - what an amazing thread. So full of wonderful information. Thank you so much, Stan for taking the time to add it all in for us. I am going to be starting to frame my paintings soon and the info here is quite timely. I have also rated it 5 stars as this is a thread that should be in the library.

Cori, how does one go about getting a rating to a thread and how does it get into the library?
Cindy

khourianya
07-28-2005, 05:46 PM
Up at the top of the thread, there is a little button named "Rate Thread" Click on that and the star ratings will appear and you can select one and vote. If enough people rate it, it is my understanding that it will then be added to the library.

scoller
07-29-2005, 01:23 AM
Cindy,

Though still taken aback by the possibility of be filed in WC's Pastel Library the research is on going. I've talked with several current and former framers...so far it appears to be one of personal prefernce. From what I've been able to gather it goes back to the days when linen hinges were perfered over masking tape. :eek:

As they say "we've come along way." The nasties :evil: that were around back in the 70's and 80's have been replaced with more industry specific adhesives. :clap:

Also, even though everything goes into a "package" one still has to take into account size. The weight of a 20 x 36 pastel on Wallis paper is going to be greater then the same pastel on Canson paper.

As with a number of things - one needs to be flexible and not afraid of making mistakes. Remember, if it wasn't for mistakes we would never learn anything.

Need to remember that...since Friday (tomorrow) is my last day working full time at the frame shop ...for classes begin shortly and one must prepare to frame the minds of 180 7th and 8th graders. :wink2:

Peace,
Stan

scoller
07-29-2005, 11:54 AM
I'd really love to see a step-by-step framing instructional with *pictures* because I'm having trouble visualizing the whole process in my head.

Debbie had made this request earlier. If there is enough interest I will begin working on it. It would help to know where to begin - for example: Do people know the difference between picture size and image size?

Live in the Present,
Stan

CindyW
07-29-2005, 02:35 PM
Stan, please go for it!
All info from the very very start of thinking about a work of art being framed would be absolutely priceless.
Cindy

*Marina*
07-29-2005, 04:41 PM
Stan, please do. You have got so much knowledge and experience.
Marina

chewie
07-29-2005, 08:58 PM
oh pleeeze stan?!! this is great! i've been framing for some time now, and am learning plenty myself!! i had to learn the hard way too, and like you, still learnin! since i buy from a wholesaler, they are usually very giving in their help to me, and have been a great asset. i have a question on that spacer-mat....use atg to attach it? i've seen one person say to use elmers', but that seems wrong. so far, i use either the atg, or an acid free glue stick. i'm giving you a high 5 on this too! thanks so much for your time!!

scoller
07-29-2005, 10:34 PM
"i have a question on that spacer-mat....use atg to attach it? i've seen one person say to use elmers', but that seems wrong. so far, i use either the atg, or an acid free glue stick."

Chewie,

The spacer that I've used have an adhesive strip. Unfurtunately some folks think white glue is white glue and all white glue is elmer's :eek: That sound confusing? :D Bottom line - whatever you use - ATG or acid free glue - use it sparingly. All you really need to do is tack it in place the pressure of the artwork package in the frame will do the rest. Remember you are working on a picture frame - not a building.

I'll do my best to answer questions as they come up - between us all the answers will surface.

"I am part of all I have met." Alfred Lord Tennyson

Stan

khourianya
07-30-2005, 12:15 AM
A step by step framing article would be a wonderful addition to the Pastel articles....

scoller
07-30-2005, 02:16 AM
A step by step framing article would be a wonderful addition to the Pastel articles....

Okay, after talking with Piper, I've decided to start working on a Basics Framing for Pastel Artist "thingy". It is going to be a week or so to put things together. As of right now it is uncertain if it will be an article or a thread. Need to learn how one submits an article or would it be better to start a thread? Your questions and input will be appreciated and needed.

Peace,
Stan

CindyW
07-31-2005, 01:09 AM
Great news, Stan, thanks for taking the time for this endeavor!
Not sure about article vs. thread.

But I have another question for everyone and it may be taking archival preparations to an extreme but I thought it so others may have, too, when thinking about minute details with archival framing.
Do you know anything about cleaning glass with cleaning fluids other than water? I have in the past cleaned glass with the obvious: Windex. Now I'm thinking that the chemicals in glass cleaner may just be the worst thing to do when trying to provide a chemical free environment for artwork. Does anyone know if this is harmful after using it to clean the inside of the glass next to the painting? even though it has evaporated and dried in a matter of a couple swipes? I framed a couple after cleaning with Windex and now will use water only just because of not knowing.
Cindy

scoller
07-31-2005, 01:46 AM
Do you know anything about cleaning glass with cleaning fluids other than water? I have in the past cleaned glass with the obvious: Windex. Now I'm thinking that the chemicals in glass cleaner may just be the worst thing to do when trying to provide a chemical free environment for artwork. Does anyone know if this is harmful after using it to clean the inside of the glass next to the painting? even though it has evaporated and dried in a matter of a couple swipes? I framed a couple after cleaning with Windex and now will use water only just because of not knowing.


Cindy,

Excellent question. You are correct the chemicals in cleaners can stay on the glass and cause problems. Not only the chemicals in the cleaners but also the chemicals in the paper towels or cloths we use to remove them.

The challenge is finding something to clean the "crud" off the glass and not leave anything behind. I've been using a commercial glass cleaner from Larson Juhl - don't know if it is available to the general public. Key is not to leave any acids behinds. Sorry folks that rules out the ole' standby of vinegar and water. :( Vinegar has acid in it.

Now for wiping the stuff off. Remember those brown towels in public bathrooms - turns out they are excellent for cleaning glass. Being brown means they haven't been bleached so they are ph neutral. :clap: Again no chemical residue left behind.

Have to admit that before all this was learned I thought the best thing to clean glass was vinegar and a newspaper. After all it did the trick for my apartment windows in Chicago. Live and learn.

It would be interesting to hear what other's use.

Peace,
Stan

khourianya
07-31-2005, 01:48 AM
As of right now it is uncertain if it will be an article or a thread. Need to learn how one submits an article or would it be better to start a thread? Your questions and input will be appreciated and needed.

Peace,
Stan

Well...I did write an article a while back on how to use the article publisher...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Articles2/47843/569/

So why don't you make it an article :D

Thanks, Stan!

chewie
07-31-2005, 10:50 AM
yupper, and article it should be!!! and WONDERFUL of you to do so, thanks so much!!!! for cleaning, i learned long ago window cleaners with ammonia in it are not what to use. i use sprayway brand, and i really like it. it comes out not as a squirt, but as a foam, and well, not to be petty, but i like the smell!! its also fairly inexpensive. and since i am using plain glass (sorry, all i can afford, or even find here!) i then use a 0000steel wool which rather 'polishes' the glass. then i use canned air after putting the glass down into the frame, to blow out any floaties. the idea of those plain brown paper toweling is great, but where to get them? maybe the school would sell me a case. i tried those 'streak free' bounty towels, and maybe they're great for the toaster and bathroom, but i wasn't impressed on my framing!

i'll be watching for the article, learning tons!!

CindyW
07-31-2005, 10:59 AM
Hi all,
Yesterday, while continuing with my framing project of 15 pieces, I came across a problem with store bought frames and how they contain the painting in the frame. The glass/mat/mat/art/mount package is too thick for the rabbet space since I added another mat. The package is flush with the frame wood back so the point gun (that propels little metal points into the wood to keep the backing snug and safely set into the frame) has no wood allowance in which to be driven. I have no time/money to replace these frames...lesson learned about rabbet space and buying sale frames: figure out ahead of time how to use them with bigger mat packages. I looked at some commercial photo frames I have here at home and there is one that has a small kind of latch attached to the frame with a screw that swings over onto the painting backing and then is screwed tightly so that it's immovable, seemingly an answer to the flush artwork and frame backing. I just have to go find them today!! That's all I can think to do with this, unless anyone has any other suggestions.
I bought some offsets (small metal brackets to keep thicker-than-frame mat packages secure) but these don't solve this problem since I don't want to add a useless layer to the mat package.

And yes, where to get the brown paper towels. Maybe a whole foods grocer. Online, most likely, too. The school is a good idea, Chewie!
Cindy

scoller
07-31-2005, 12:22 PM
Hello to all,

Chewie and Cindy, with regards to the brown paper towels. Check Home Depot, Lowe's, "Wally World" (aka WalMart), AutoZone, and the like. You will surprised how available they are. Look in the hardware and automotive sections. After all who wants to put brown paper in their kitchen?

Cindy, with regards to rabbits. Been there done that. You are on the right track. The offsets are usually the better choice. I've had to secure an extra piece of matboard or foam core to get the offset to fit. Sometimes one has to bit the bullet and put another layer on the back. Remember - only you will know. Don't like it - but as a friend says, "that how come we use dust covers - to hide our mistakes."

Unfortunately you encountered an all to common problem with commercial frames. The rabbits in them are often times only about 3/8 of an inch. Remember these frames are designed for people who only put one mat on a picture. I just triple matted one for Piper and it barely fit into a 1/2 rabbit - and I made the frame :o .

What type of framing points are you using? There are a few tricks.

Chewie, thanks :clap: - forgot about the ammonia issue. It is important to remember that the area behind the glass is a very "tight" environment. What works on a picture window does not always work on a picture frame.

Peace,
Stan

CindyW
07-31-2005, 03:12 PM
Hi all,
My husband found turn tabs that the frame shop at Charette. They use these to secure the mat package in the frame but didn't have any on the shelf so they sold their package they had to him. He also found acid free backing paper for the back dust cover...is that what you call it?

The person there told him that they don't use acid free glass cleaner and regular paper towels with archival framing so that doesn't quite make sense to me to call it that.
Which brings me to:
If one does everything archival but leaves out one element, does this taint the whole package and it's worthless to have even bothered? Point in question is glass. I didn't buy glass to replace the glass in the store bought frames and so will this be something that should be told to the customer so they can see to it themselves? I can't tell the customer it's an archivally framed painting if it's not completely archival.

I have found that these supplies do not come cheap and I have to weigh archival framing against non-archival in all instances, given what I've learned here now.

And here is the question for selling your work framed: How many customers take the art to a framer and get it reframed and matted to replace the existing frame package? I think I'll post a poll in the near future a few places on WetCanvas to see what anyone knows about customer intentions with their artwork.

I'm hoping the cost of these supplies are recouped in the sale of the painting if I sell any of them. And if none sell, I could say it was an investment and I learned alot....and I DID learn so much! I'm sure I'll have more questions but I'm awaiting Stan's article soon!
Cindy

Kathryn Wilson
07-31-2005, 06:18 PM
Wow, what a great thread! Yes, indeed, please do this in the Article format. If you follow Cori's instructions on doing an Article, it should go well. On this one, the more photos the better.

Carly, our other Pastel Moderator is in charge of the Article system for WC, so if you encounter any problems, PM her.

scoller
07-31-2005, 10:59 PM
I agree with that any artwork sold as archival/conservation quality needs to be 100% archival/conservation. However, that should not mean if you can't do it all then don't do anything. So if something has to be left out what should it be? Well we can rule out the artwork. :rolleyes:

Seriously, even if you are starting out and can't afford the best - that should not stop you for doing everything possible to perserve your work. Which means - put it on the best matboard you can afford at the time. You can always replace the matboard when funds become available. Acid migration does not happen over night it generally takes a few years. So if it is a few months before you can afford the 100% acid free/lignin free and pH buffered board - you will be okay. :) Trust me - :angel:

Which also holds true of work/prints you are selling - if you can't afford to put all the work behind UV glass - simply tell the customer. Important thing is that they be matted with archival/conservation quality mat board. Those who understand will appreciate your honesty - those who don't understand may give you the "deer in the headlights" look. :confused: That is called a teaching moment.

Most foam core is acid free so if you are using it - no problem. Don't use cardboard :( - sacrifice a piece of matboard board first. Crescant's Decorative board would work for this.

With regards to recouping cost. Since all my matting is on archival/ conservation mats that cost is figured in to the cost of the job. I give people the option (expect Piper's work) with regards to glass. Most pastelist perfer the Conservation Clear...and like me drule at the Museum glass.

Finally with regards to the article...it will probably be at least a couple of weeks. Need to write - have my proof reader look over it (she says if she can understand it anyone can) rewrite it and take the pictures (which reminds me does anyone know where the battery charger is for the camera? :p )

Peace,
Stan

CindyW
07-31-2005, 11:38 PM
Hi all, and Stan!
How much room should there be surrounding the mat package inside the rabbet? Right now I have the mat package 1/16 to 1/32 smaller than the rabbet. But, I am using turnbuttons to secure the mat package and it's quite snug. I would think it would need to be snug so there wasn't alot of air billowing in it in case it was moved around alot.

Thanks once again, Stan! for helping make this a much easier framing session for me. I'm getting there and I'll post a picture of the setup in the August Goalpost thread.

Cindy

scoller
08-01-2005, 03:28 PM
How much room should there be surrounding the mat package inside the rabbet? Right now I have the mat package 1/16 to 1/32 smaller than the rabbet.

That works, you want the package to be only slightly smaller than the opening. Around an 1/8 it begins flopping around and the same size it runs the risk of puckering up. There needs to be a little room for normal expansion.
Please do not feel the need to get out a ruler - you can "eyeball" this.

If folks have specific questions they want addressed in the article - please send me a PM. Remember there are no "dumb" questions.

CindyW
08-01-2005, 07:37 PM
Hi all,
Here's a thread with the question I'm asking now about attaching the art to the back of the mat or to the foamcore mount behind the mat and artwork.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232171
I've attached my art to the mat only because I took the cue from a lithograph I have from an NH artist and don't know if there is a negative to this approach.
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
Cindy

CindyW
08-02-2005, 11:08 AM
Hi all,
Another question:
In storebought frames, is it negative to use those black heavyduty cardboards with the turnbuttons on them? I ask because the rabbet is so deep on this one that I would be using 4 layers of foamcore to push the mat package up to be flush with the frame back and would rather not use the good foamcore if I don't have to.
This is the mat package: glass, outer mat, hidden inner mat, artwork, foamcore backing, another foamcore backing, AND I use aluminum barrier tape to tape off the rabbet, might this be enough to keep the heavyduty cardboard at bay? Or is it just a bad idea completely?
I have 3 frames that use the black backing with turnbuttons. You know the kind I mean, have you seen them on frames you've bought?
Thanks!
Cindy

scoller
08-03-2005, 01:43 AM
In storebought frames, is it negative to use those black heavyduty cardboards with the turnbuttons on them? I ask because the rabbet is so deep on this one that I would be using 4 layers of foamcore to push the mat package up to be flush with the frame back and would rather not use the good foamcore if I don't have to.


Sorry for the delay in responding...The first day of school is rapidly approaching which means it is time to get one's room in order. Which to add to the challenge - they moved me to a different room. What is life without a few challenges. :rolleyes:

Who says you have to use the back that came with the frame? Remember a frame - whither custom or not is merely a holder. If modifying the holder means the "package" will fit better...go for it. In this case modifying it would mean useing framer's points or glazing points to hold the package in place. Then simply put a dust cover on the back of it.

Not familiar with "aluminum barrier tape" need to check it out. Remember any migration is going to take awhile to occur. You can always reframe artwork after a show is over.

CindyW
08-03-2005, 03:14 AM
[QUOTE=scoller]
Who says you have to use the back that came with the frame? Remember a frame - whither custom or not is merely a holder. If modifying the holder means the "package" will fit better...go for it. In this case modifying it would mean useing framer's points or glazing points to hold the package in place. Then simply put a dust cover on the back of it.QUOTE]
Hi Stan! Hope your preparations for school start are well underway and you're getting excited to see the kids once again. I'm thinking school just let out 2- 3 weeks ago, tops, yah? :wink2: It sure feels like it! I hope YOU had enough of a break for summer, it zoomed by for me.

Well, the backing black cardboard with the turnbuttons already attached was used by me on a few because I wanted to use it if I could, save on some supplies yet so long as there was enough protection for the artwork that this board couldn't contaminate it. But, you're right. There is time to redo frame jobs after shows that you bring all the work back home. :D I just wanted to know if I should tell the customer (ha, I'm pretending I'll be selling some art) that they might wish to look into replacing some of the parts of the mat package that aren't quite archival....the glass, the back cardboard, and they wouldn't get too concerned and ask for money off the price since it wasn't a fully archival framing job. You did say that would be a nice thing to tell customers! Well, I'll let you know how it goes!! I'm down to the wire now and getting no sleep! (which is overrated, yah?)
Thanks!
Cindy

scoller
08-03-2005, 11:13 AM
Bing,

Good luck with the show - or does one wish all artist bad luck? I'm so confused. :confused: Either way Piper and I both hope the show is everything you want and more.

When you talk about what to tell customers I'm reminded of some of the work seen at art shows/fairs as well as some that came into the shop. Some artist are very good at telling customers others - while others.....

Talked with one artist last year who paints on feathers. Her matting follows the outline of the feathers. All of her mats are acid free. With such intricut cuts my assumption was they were done with a computerized mat cutter. Oh, foolish me - :o She traces them out on the mat, then her husband uses cuts them all by hand using a template to keep the bevel even.

Looking back at your posting I'm reminded that some artist mat and frame everything the same - white or black matboard and a metal sectional frame. While such a practice does keep cost down and releave stress, it also limits how the artwork is displayed.

Of course my memory is long enough to recall mounting photos on matboard that came in a choice - black or white. And that depended on which side of the board you chose. :p

Have fun and enjoy your show.

Eirl
01-06-2007, 08:25 PM
Hi , a very Newbie here and my request may be too basic.
Having read this thread I wonder would it be too much trouble to have a Framing for Tiny Tots post?? I confess that mats are a mystery,as in the context of framing are rabbits , fillets , linen etc!!
Perhaps there is a glossary of framing terms on the site , there is just so much fabulous information on WC I have not explored it all yet.

scoller
01-06-2007, 08:45 PM
Welcome Eirl. I would have to review this thread to see if reference was made to some of the books available on matting and framing.

If not I will PM you with some reference books.

BruceF
01-06-2007, 11:28 PM
Hi , a very Newbie here and my request may be too basic.
Having read this thread I wonder would it be too much trouble to have a Framing for Tiny Tots post?? I confess that mats are a mystery,as in the context of framing are rabbits , fillets , linen etc!!
Perhaps there is a glossary of framing terms on the site , there is just so much fabulous information on WC I have not explored it all yet.
There's an entire section of the forum devoted to framing:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=201

Eirl
01-07-2007, 07:34 AM
Thank you Bruce I shall go there .

FURBEE
01-30-2007, 11:22 AM
Another way to tell if a mat is rag is the color of the core. Rag mats are very white while paper are a little yellow. It is easier to tell if you hold them together and look at the cut edge. But they now make some paper mats with a white core so it can still be hard to tell sometimes. I used to work in a frame shop and that is how we could quickly tell the difference. Over time the paper mat cores yellow a lot. I was told also that the conservation glass was only effective for about 10-15 years. That the coating on the glass did not last forever. I'm not completely sure about that and I was also told that you should update your matting in that time too. From working in framing for 13 years I have seen what damage light does to artwork. Even the display pieces we had would fade in a few months time under our lights in the shop. So you may want to invest in a better piece of glass.
Furbee