View Full Version : unused pastels
07-16-2005, 10:35 AM
Hopefully I can explain my thinking on this idea and it won't sound too far off the wall.....
I have, and am sure many others do too, colors and brands of pastel which are not used. It seems wasteful to have these extras laying around. Am wondering if there is a way to add something that will make a pastel usuable. I have read the process for making pastels from scratch, but the idea of utilizing existing ones came to mind. Do not want to add dyes, just manipulate existing sticks.
An example would be a brand which is too hard for my liking. Could the stick be crushed and a product added for a softer pastel? I know the color would be lighter. How to and what to crush with? What would be added?
Another example would be a specific color (or colors) not used. Could I crush more than one, mix together? What would be added to end up with a usable pastel?
Thanks for any input...to a possible odd question.
Sandy in Woodland Park, CO
07-16-2005, 11:13 AM
Yes to all the above ..........you can make a hard pastel a bit softer by crushing it and adding tiny drops of rubbing alcohol to it and mixing it into a smooth thick paste then reroll it, ive done this several times on ciran wrap. I would not advice using tap water to rewet your pastel mixes as the chemicals in it can change the pigment. Using alcohol wont affect the pigment and it evaporates faster.
I can also say that if you have a soft pastel that is crumbly (sennelier for example) crush it on some ciran wrap and a tiny drop ( always be careful with how much wetting agent you add, make it to wet and it wont roll properly for awhile) of alcohol and mix with a palette knife. This will make a sturdier stick. I had to do that to three half senns that i got out of a set of 80. IF you dont have ciran wrap, get a piece of thick glass (hand mirror, plate, etc.) and use an old credit card, id card, some type of plastic card, to mix and scrape everything into a neat little pile and then you can make a square pastel that wont roll and break. Ive had to do that with a couple of unisons that rolled to their untimely demise from my pastel table and splintered into about 5 pieces.
Hope this helps
Oh forgot to add, you can use just about anything sturdy and non porus to crush a pastel, i usually take a pastel and fold it once in ciran wrap and crush it with a spoon, or the bottom of a glass.
07-16-2005, 12:20 PM
So that's the "how", now let's answer the which and what.
Colours you don't use, reformed into colours you might. If I was going to do this, I'd make three or four piles of these "unused" colours, divided by hue-family: These are blues, these are reds, these are yellows. I'd keep that really broad right now- easy enough to get picky later.
First, you're going to have to know how colours work- what "flavor" they are- and so how they go together. For instance, if you try and mix a goldy-yellow with a pinky-gray, you're going to end up with the colour ugly-mess. Take a look at your palette and decide where the holes are- what *kinds* of colours you need. If you need pure hues- go buy some; you're not going to get 'em mixing up these others- at least, not many and not reliably. If you need grays, you're in luck- using bits and pieces of other pastels to make grayed colours is *perfect*.
Make sure you crush the pieces very well, so that your resulting new stick doesn't suddenly start streaking bright orange or dark blue while you're working. Some folks use a mortar and pestle, me, I use a cup and spoon back. Choose which colours to mix carefully- think about what this gray-purple and this turquoise green will make when mixed together- if you can't see it in your head, then layer them together a few times on a piece of paper and see. Be careful about mixing two or more widely varied values- for instance, a light tan-brown, and a dark dirty purple- the result will be less-than-pleasing. Kittyy Wallis calls such sticks "rat-lung pink"- which just goes to show you some mixes shouldn't even be imagined....
Keep a few notes if you are that sort, and you may find yourself onto something. Wear gloves, and don't force the sticks dry- they'll crack easily. They're dry when they no longer feel cool to the touch. Have fun.
07-16-2005, 12:23 PM
Thanks SBJ for putting the what in there lol, i dont mix colors together by this method i just try to make them more sturdier hence why i didnt go into "that part".
07-16-2005, 12:29 PM
Well, I lack the energy to remake the pastels, and tend to give my unwanted ones to kids I know (not my own- they don't want them) who want to start using them but can't really afford them- likewise with the paper I have now deemed doggy. Although it may cause them frustration to get what I consider to be my 'bad stuff' I am not about to give away Unisons or GA's for example; one man's trash is another one's treasure I guess....probably off the original topic, but how I deal with the unloved pastels...
07-16-2005, 12:44 PM
You guys are great! I had hoped this would be simple and indeed it is. And feel much better knowing my brain wasn't off in a wrong direction. Am always messing with something and the options for attempting this make me smile.
As for colors, I do have a handle on such. Thankfully, as this could definitely end up with mud. Your suggestion regarding crushing "well" is appreciated as sometimes we can get in a hurry.
Thanks for all the suggestions, directions and writing back so quickly.
07-16-2005, 12:46 PM
Oh, meant to say that I will let you know how my attempts work out. Wouldn't surprise me if I run into something requiring another question too.
07-16-2005, 02:04 PM
This is a timely topic - I just went through all my pastels cataloging what I had and so forth and found I've got a box of pastels I absolutely hate, along with a pile of shards. I've been considering mixing my own and did some research and found that if you use "distilled water" in your mixture, then roll and let dry, you can re-make those duds into something better at least.
srw - thanks for the tip on re-making too hard and too soft pastels into something more useable.
My question is does anybody, on a regular basis, weed out those pastels they never use, or do we all hoard them hoping to find a use for them some day? - :)
07-16-2005, 03:09 PM
Kat- do you mean like- throw them AWAY? Even the shards and tiny crumbs? No, never... could not bring myself to do it.
07-16-2005, 03:16 PM
I crunch up and remake pastels all the time. Both my less-successful or duplicate handmades and bits of broken commercial ones. I've got a fair collection of pigments and fillers by now, so changing the color and texture isn't difficult. My all-purpose softening agent is fine marble dust. It's cheap, and it creates a nice texture mixed with a too-hard pastel. I use putty knives and palette knives for crushing and mixing, and an old piece of picture glass as a palette.
A hint for crushing up a dried pastel: Moisten it first and as you work. That helps keep bits from flying everywhere!
I also collect the dust that falls off a painting as I work, and I segregate it by general hue into little Dixie cups. When I have enough, I make various green-grays and blue-grays and so on that can actually be very pretty. I'd definitely recommend rubbing alcohol for wetting down the powder--there are some pigments that resist water but not alcohol, and it does dry much faster. When I started using alcohol rather than distilled water, my handmade pastels began to dry fully overnight rather than taking two or three days! Put it in a little spray bottle so you can control the amount you're adding.
Best thing about rolling your own pastels--making different shapes! You are not slaved to a cylinder. I make almost all of mine in a thickish triangle that allows every width of stroke in one shape.
07-16-2005, 04:59 PM
Well, my problem's a bit different from what y'all are talking about so far...I've gotten several "sets" of colors and they all include certain shades such as the varied earth colors and greys. I almost never use the earth tones these days and even if I did, I've got probably half a dozen of each and every shade so it would be nice to figure out something to do with all the duplicates. I wonder if we could maybe have a mini swap thread thingie...not to really sell stuff but to offer extras in trade for someone else's unused stuff. Maybe we could just list what stuff we'd be willing to part with and interested folks could pm whoever it was with swap offers?
07-16-2005, 05:14 PM
Sooz, I've got dozens of pastels that came in the sets I know I never will use - where did all those pinks come from! And some awful darks I can't even tell what they are. This all came about, Sooz, by going through my pastels and using my new Dakota binder and making a swatch for each color. It's really honed my thoughts down on what brands I will continue with - surprisingly I probably will not buy bunches of Unisons any more. I do have some favorites, but I'm finding other pastel brands more to my liking just by making that swatch.
We could use the swap shop for trading pastels -
Purples - I came awfully close to tossing out a bunch of my older pastels, but that's when I thought that I could probably make some nice colors. And I do have a box of shards after I broke all my pastels in half - arrrrrgggghhh - that was tramatic!
07-16-2005, 05:18 PM
LOL I pm'ed sooz about her pastels , by the way no hurry sooz lol, but i like this idea of swapin pastels or other such things, i will say this, i have some wallis museum 9 by 12 sheets that i can swap. (yes you may gasp, but trust me i have enough of the very large sheets, and i also have TONS of others supports, Art spectrum, canson, strathmore, somerset, pastelbord, etc) so pleeeease do not talk me out of trading because i SHOULD use wallis, I NEED MORE COLOR PASTELS!! LMAO
07-16-2005, 05:49 PM
I started to mention a swap- BUT isn't there a swap site for that? Of course, you could just send it all to me and I will fairly distribute them- would not dream of checking my own collection first- no, never......Steph- what colors do you NEED?? PM me...
07-16-2005, 06:02 PM
Our own WC has its Swap Shop - haven't you found it Purples?
Me too, srw - let me know by PM what you are looking for.
07-16-2005, 06:20 PM
Now where were you people three days ago when i posted up in swap shop that i had sheets of museum 9 by 12 and three large sheets 18 by 24 museum????????? i left it up there for over a day and people looked at it but no one pm'ed me so i thought of putting it on ebay....but changed my mind there too, it just felt "wrong" lol.
Ill pm ya'll. :D
07-16-2005, 07:29 PM
Well, seems every time I check the swap shop all they have on offer is glassworking stuff or pottery makin' stuff or some other stuff I don't use, so I get out of the habit of looking.
07-16-2005, 07:50 PM
Me too, Sooz - although Stephanie and I did business last year through the Swap Shop. We probably need to set up a network of people interested in swapping - like a PM list so we can notify each other when we have things to trade. The Swap Shop was set up so that this type of transaction is pretty much left off the medium-specific forums.
07-16-2005, 07:56 PM
I totally agree!! Make it a sticky or however that works to keep it at the top, just for us pastelists!
Oh and THANK YOU sandy for starting this thread lol. :wink2:
07-17-2005, 09:30 AM
Jeesh, I had no idea this thread would evolve into more. Have never been a poster of meaning, much less start a thread. Tis part of me in real life too, tend to watch on the sidelines more than join in with the flock.
Sooz/Kyle...all those earth and dark colors. They are what I am missing the most of/use the most of. Pink..don't use much, but found a need yesterday. I also realized the need for light orange shades. The swap idea is definitely interesting...will let those of you who know how to do such discuss/figure it out.
Laura, thanks for the detailed post. I did wonder how only the alcohol would create a softer pastel......So, I need to buy some marble dust to soften the hard. And the suggestion for different shapes is a great idea.
I looked at the options for creating from scratch, it is how I started thinking about doing something with the unused pastels. Pricing the scratch option seemed to come out about the same as just buying pastels up front. At least to get started with enough dye to make what was needed/wanted. As with pastels, there is always a color missing and then I keep spending to add more. And, as is the norm, would have another stash of supplies.
Adding dye did cross my mind, but eliminated this too because the good stuff is pricey. Although yesterday I realized that one of the missing colors needed was a range of orange. So maybe I'll opt for the 3 basic dye colors and go from there, and add the umbers and ochres......now this is where I start getting in trouble....there is so much to select from and neverending.
Back to attempting the simple....will mess with the existing/unused and see what evolves.
You guys are great!
07-17-2005, 11:00 AM
Adding alcohol or even just tiny drops of distilled water thins out the binder thats in the pastel, thats how it makes them softer, adding more marble dust (in this case its either precipitated chalk which is a combination of calcium carbonite and talc, or you can use straight calcium carbonite which is the marble dust) if you add one or the other, yes its going to make your pastel softer, but its also going to thin out your color. Thats how some pastel manufacturers make tints when they say they dont add much white its because they thin with just more chalk.
Adding any type of dye besides pure pigments (wether it be dry or liquid pigment from createx) will make your pastels fade. Thats one of the first lessons you learn when trying to make your own handmade pastels , is to look for and to keep away from "dye" pigments. (Unless of course your just using the word dye as a general discription for pigments, then please just excuse the last sentence)
Making your own pastels really doesnt take that much money, you could make 10 times more from buying your own pigments, fillers, and extenders than you can get from one professional brand pastel company. BUT the thing is you have to have TONS of time, research, STORAGE space, a place away from living area to mix and weigh pigments, also you need to pay attention to the temprature where you make them, etc etc, ........It can be fun, but time consuming..........but it would save you lots of money. I spent more time making pastels than i did useing them , so i got out of it lol.
Lots of professional artists will tell you the first thing about pastels is that since you can not mix on a palette like wet medium an artist will either want or NEED hundreds of pastels to select from. This is of course depending on what you paint , your style and YOUR needs. OK well your budget too lol, but everyone has their own methods to affording this medium lol.
Well im done rambling, I just wanted to mention a couple things , hope ya didnt mind :D.
OH . i must say that all that i said above is from my own personal experience from making my own pastels for awhile. Of course others who have made them will probably have difference of opinion. :)
07-18-2005, 12:36 PM
I've experimented with a number of different filler pigments, which is fun! :) I've got containers of precipitated chalk, talc and kaolin clay as well as the marble dust. Each of those has a different character made into sticks, and each has a different tinting strength.
The marble dust makes the softest sticks on its own, and has the least tinting strength; the sort I use (Fredrix brand, available from Dick Blick, Daniel Smith, etc.) doesn't lighten colors much until it's a large proportion of the mix. Five or ten percent is probably enough to change the texture. Of course that depends on the characteristics of the pigments in the pastel you are modifying--some don't have much tinting strength on their own, or are already "diluted" with a lot of filler.
I second the caution about "dyes"--dyes and pigments are very different things, so don't use actual dyes for pastels! You'll end up with some really nice sidewalk chalk. :)
07-18-2005, 01:33 PM
I used to belong to a fitness video forum that had a swap forum in it. It worked out well, but I did get ripped off a few times because it worked on the honour system (and not everyone is honourable). People would post what they had for trade and what they were looking for in return and people would just PM them and see if they could work out the trade. then they would both send the items along. I think that that is the idea behind the WC swapshop, but it tends to be more of a sales marketplace anytime I've been over there.
The swap shop should almost be just a separate section for each medium so people won't have to wade so much.
If we all posted in there "what I have and what I want" and then post to a single thread here with the link to your swap items, we can probably save on having a HUGE thread.
and Wallis museum eh...hmmmmmmm what I wouldn't do for a deal on that...it is my FAVOURITE!!!
07-18-2005, 01:34 PM
I missed this as I was away all weekend! I want in on the swap thing. Need earthtones, and have too many blues and greens!
Kat, I don't visit the swap shop either. Same reason as Sooz! Just too much to wade through fot the occassional glimpse of something I could use.
07-18-2005, 01:40 PM
Ive experimented with all the above and the one that least effected (actually i saw no change at all) was the kaolin clay, but it takes more of that than the chalk to make a pastel. I got my marble dust from a health food store which was cheap, after awhile i started buying it in pound bags from kamapigments , still cheap. so is precip. chalk, and kaolin.
07-18-2005, 02:26 PM
Hi all - before we get too excited about all this, let me check with the Big Kahuna (Carly) to see if this can be done. I don't see why not - but there are things I never see until it hits me in the head - :)
07-19-2005, 10:49 AM
Adding alcohol or even just tiny drops of distilled water thins out the binder thats in the pastel, thats how it makes them softer,"
More good info, this seems to be the best and simple way to accomplish what I want to do.
"adding more marble dust ..... Thats how some pastel manufacturers make tints when they say they dont add much white its because they thin with just more chalk.
Adding any type of dye besides pure pigments (wether it be dry or liquid pigment from createx) will make your pastels fade."
Interesting info, thanks....great learning process.
"Thats one of the first lessons you learn when trying to make your own handmade pastels , is to look for and to keep away from "dye" pigments. (Unless of course your just using the word dye as a general discription for pigments, then please just excuse the last sentence)"
I was....and tis okay to correct me. Still learning, constantly, and makes all worth the conversation. Sharing knowledge is worth it's weight in gold.
"Making your own pastels really doesnt take that much money" "BUT the thing is you have to have TONS of time, research, STORAGE space, a place away from living area to mix and weigh pigments, also you need to pay attention to the temprature where you make them, etc etc, ........It can be fun, but time consuming..........but it would save you lots of money. I spent more time making pastels than i did useing them , so i got out of it lol."
Think that even without this "reality" check from you, I somehow suspected that making pastels was probably another full project. It was why I mentioned figuring out the cost of such versus just buying pastels up front. Have gotten myself in this situation before..... supplies beyond for a project, only to use 1/4. In the end I would spend more money, time, effort than if I had just bought up front.
"Lots of professional artists will tell you the first thing about pastels is that since you can not mix on a palette like wet medium an artist will either want or NEED hundreds of pastels to select from."
Of course this comment is why I asked the original question. There is always a color I want/need and missing, along with the number of ones unused....along with the lonely "brands" which don't work for me.
Well" im done rambling, I just wanted to mention a couple things , hope ya didnt mind :D.
Loved your input, confirmed my side of the pastel world and definitely answered more questions than I realized were even there.
"OH . i must say that all that i said above is from my own personal experience from making my own pastels for awhile. Of course others who have made them will probably have difference of opinion. :)
At this point, the idea of a group getting together to make pastels is probably more productive, wise and price concious for results. Always someday....right now I will try the alcohol drops. Sounds like a simple solution.
07-19-2005, 03:21 PM
What is the swap shop and where is it?
07-19-2005, 04:10 PM
It is a board where people can post materials etc that they wish to part with (either for sale or trade).
07-19-2005, 04:41 PM
I know I've got tons of earth colors in various stages of undress...ie unused entirely and still wrappered and others that have been broken in two, etc. I'll wade through 'em soon and maybe just shoot a pic of them. Anybody wanting any or all of them could pick and choose.
07-20-2005, 08:13 PM
We've obtained permission to start a Trade Only thread that will be stickied up at the top - now I have to figure out the wording and what to include and what not to include.
Anyone have thoughts? As I said above, it will be for exchange or trade only - no sales will be permitted. You can trade pastels for other pastels or other art supplies, so hopefully we can scatter all our unused pastels to those who need them more than we do.
07-20-2005, 09:59 PM
That is so cool, Kat! It is too bad that we would be restricted to a single thread...though I think that the best way to handle it would be to allow only posts to set out what you have to trade and not have it be a chatty thread. Trades can be arranged through PM or email (which the preference should be stated in the post) and then once the trade has been arranged, perhaps the posts could be edited to reflect that the items are gone...
I wonder if it would be possible to shut off the feature that disallows post edits after 1 hour, just for a single thread. That way each member could just manage their own threads and edit as they go. (is it possible to have the option to delete your own thread once your items are gone?)
Other things to consider should be that the trade thread will remain active for a month at a time and after that month, it is deleted or archived and a new thread is started - this will keep the trade posts from growing stale. It will also help keep it manageable.
The way the trade forum works over at www.videofitness.com is that you post the haves and wants list along with how you want to be contacted. Each person pays the shipping for what they are sending and they must get it in the mail as quickly as possible. Some people will pay the extra for tracking.
Also - if you do not wish to trade outside of the country you live in - you should state that as well. Shipping to Canada costs about the same as shipping within the US. International is usually slightly more. Really, it would be nice if we could keep this international. After all, we did it quite successfully last year with the christmas card exchange.
Also, when shipping out of the country, traders need to keep in mind that customs laws vary. You do have to fill out a little tag for the parcel...and you have to state a value. With pastels this can get sticky, because they are really expensive and we think we are doing our firend a favour by stating the full worth...but in Canada, we can be charged tax and brokerage fees at the border if the stated value is over a certain amount. Parameters should be laid out early on.
Phew - I am feeling long winded now..thanks to all who waded through my blathering. :D If you want, once the rules are all laid out, I can put together a on-page website to put them on that we can reference each month. Just let me know.
07-21-2005, 07:52 AM
Hi Cory, we are still getting this together, but you did bring up some good points. We need to keep it to one thread as I believe it would overwhelm the Talk Forum, just like the glass people have in the Swap Shop. I don't believe we can have the Edit button changed for one thread and no we can't edit and delete our own posts - I would have to do that.
All trade and exchanges would be up to the people involved and WC would not be responsible for any problems with an exchange.
I am not sure on the tax question you brought up - if no money is exchanged, how is this viewed by each country?
S'all for right now.
07-21-2005, 08:47 AM
When i had to ship items ive sold on ebay to canada i just put on the slip that the contents were "gift" , most of my buyers got out of paying any kind of extra fees by doing that i believe.........plus post offices are now making sure that if anything sent outside the usa there HAS TO BE two addresses. One is the main address, the second is the address of which the parcel can go to if no one is home at the first address. If the package cannot be delivered, there is also boxes to mark stateing how to handle the parcel, in which case it can either be thrown in the trash or returned , but there are extra fees attatched to being returned and they are not cheap.
So if people want to do this internationaly there are several precautions one must take and pay attention to if you forget to fill out a box or checkmark something theres a good chance your parcel will be lost forever.............ive had this happen.........its not pleasant......
Also i have a question about the shipping. Of which i think each person that is trading should handle THEIR OWN shipping amount, and what i mean is, if im sending paper to someone it will cost more to ship to them out of MY pocket , than it would be for them to ship a box of pastels to me........i might be just a bit picky on this but shipping costs can add up , and one could be out more than you think..........
Just a thought........
07-21-2005, 11:30 AM
Two addresses? I have never heard of that before. I can understand them wanting the addressee and the sender's addresses on there, but 2 addresses for the recieving end seems silly. Most of our parcels go to a pick up loacation if they don't fit in the mailbox.
As for the taxes issue - if a package is listed as having a value that exceeds a certain amount, the Canadian government likes to charge GST on it (goods and services tax). Even if it's marked as a gift sometimes. I always tell people to mark packages as being under $5 to try to avoid taxation. It is just something to keep in mind.
07-21-2005, 11:42 AM
I thought it was silly to when i was asked to do this , but then again after i thought about it after the fact i decided that maybe it was a good thing that they requested it. But the post offices HERE DO require it , and i thought i would pass that info on...
07-21-2005, 07:48 PM
Ummmm . . . not in my post office.
We are going to keep this as simple as possible - I will start a thread tomorrow, so get your want lists, or exchange lists ready!
07-21-2005, 07:55 PM
Well i didnt mean to turn this into a debate. When i said "here" i should have just said oklahoma city.
And i swear if someone from oklahoma city comes in here and says "nu uh, not here"
Then i guess im lier lol.........good luck with the thread
07-21-2005, 09:32 PM
Cori, I sent paintings to Canada last year as donations for STRAYS. The director had me mark "samples" on the shipping label. That elimenated extra fees and taxes.
I'm getting my list together!
07-21-2005, 11:10 PM
I've just been alerted by Carly that the Swap Shop has been modified - the Glass Forum people now have their own swap shop so that the other mediums get a chance to get noticed now.
We can go two ways with this - we can go ahead as planned with our own sorta Swap Shop, OR we can post in the newly revised Swap Shop and put links back to our posts in our Sticky Thread - that way if you have things you want to sell and/or trade it can be done in the original Swap Shop.
07-21-2005, 11:24 PM
I'm fine with the revised swaap shop - I think it will make for less work on the part of the moderators that way...
07-21-2005, 11:27 PM
07-21-2005, 11:51 PM
That looks like a "pretty please" smiley! :) What does everyone else think?
07-22-2005, 12:08 AM
It sounds like a great idea- I just got my goodies though for the most part and have a hard time swapping the little kinders just yet- when I sold things, people in the uk, etc. would ask me to mark the items as a gift to avoid a bunch of taxes and a trip to the customs office- however, since I sold the things to them, it would have been committing mail fraud for me to mark things as a gift that were not... but with the swap, clearly both parties can send the packages as gifts since there is no money traded, only goodies- you are in essence trading gifts...I would say that you should figure in the cost to ship as part of the exchange, and not exchange money at all... both the usps site, ups, etc. have extremely accurate shipping cost calculators (or they used to a couple of years ago), and to avoid anyone getting angry because something may get truly lost, would highly suggest one of those little neon green tracking number tags at the post office (they scan when the thing departs and arrives, unlike ups or fedex who does this automatically and scans it at every port)... ups and fedex automatically insure things- usps it is extra- and to certain parts of the world it can be more than the value of the goodies...when trading overseas I would suggest that each party ship the same way- ie. usps (postal) air for example, not having one go the boat route and one air...again to avoid hard feelings... just my 2 cents worth- ask Steph how chicken I am to barter ;)
Just a suggestion too but you might find a common 'exchange rate' as being the price jerry's, dakota's or blicks charges for the same items if new, and if used go down from there....
07-22-2005, 08:23 AM
What a great idea you guys have pursued and looks like it is evolving into a wonderful solution. Glad I didn't crush my pastels as they may be just what someone wants for a trade. Guess I need to identify what isn't being used and what I would "love" to trade for.
Sooz, I could really use the dark colors. We are so close by it may be time for the excuse for to meet personally. I'll PM you.
07-22-2005, 09:31 PM
Sounds good, Sandy!
07-24-2005, 10:14 AM
Where is the Swap Shop? Under what forum heading?
07-24-2005, 10:36 AM
If you go to the blue bar above, click on Content Area, then Discussion Forums - it is at the bottom of the listed forums. We haven't finished the wording on the new thread for Pastels, but should be done this week.
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