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hamsterdance
07-15-2005, 12:19 PM
Can anyone tell me their experience with either Maimeri's Polycolor or L&B Flashe paints?

I did a bit of digging around on the web on vinyl-based colors and found the following info.

(Excerpts from ART HARDWARE: The Definitive Guide to Artistsí Materials, by Steven Saitzyk © 1987)VINYL EMULSION PAINTS
Vinyl emulsions are basically the same as acrylic emulsions. The acrylic polymer has one hydrogen atom replaced by a chloride atom, which results in some slightly different handling properties. Paints made from vinyl emulsions dry very matte and evenly. Acrylic emulsion paints tend to dry spottily with shiny and matte areas, even when a medium is added in an attempt to regulate this effect. Painted surfaces that have variations in surface shine produce the visual illusion of multiple tones of color within one color. This is often a desirable trait for figurative artwork, but is undesirable for most abstract artwork.

It is the matte quality that has made the vinyl emulsion paint Flashe, manufactured by the LeFranc & Bourgeois Company, popular among abstract artists. However, vinyl is said to break down more easily than acrylic when exposed to ultraviolet light and is therefore not recommended for murals where there may be exposure to direct sunlight.

Vinyl and acrylic paints can, in theory, be mixed together. If they are incompatible, the mixture should react immediately, resulting in a "cottage cheese" look, and the mixture will not spread when used. Liquitex colors have, for example, been successfully mixed when Flashe colors, with the one exception of the Flashe black vinyl paint, which will curdle when mixed with an acrylic.


After more digging I discovered Maimeri's polycolor acrylics are really vinyl paints like the Flashe paints.

timelady
07-15-2005, 12:32 PM
I've never seen acrylics dry "spottily". Each pigment will have it's own finish (gloss or matte) but spotting, which sounds random, isn't something I've seen. And yes you can unify an acrylic finish with mediums or varnish quite easily (I do, I make mine all matte at the end with Golden's MSA varnish. One coat does it too.)

So other than that I see no difference? If they're being marketed as acrylics simply with the same finish across the range then fair enough. :) Einion likes that I think but can't remember if Maimeri is one of the brands he recommends.

Tina.

hamsterdance
07-15-2005, 08:58 PM
Thanks Timelady.

I noticed the book referenced was from 1987. Perhaps some brands of acrylic back then dried spotty? I have some tubes of Maimeri's Brera and like it second only to Lascaux. Was just curious about the difference between vinyl and acrylic paints.

a. ladd
11-18-2005, 01:36 PM
I have a love/hate relation to acrylics. I like to layer, varnish, gel, extude and texture them for abstract type stuff. But standard acrylics are too translucent, streaky and sheeny for my representative/brushed work - so I play with vinyls.

Polycolor is very brilliant and opaque, which is what I like about vinyls. (The jars are also a bargain compared to others). Polycolor is said to be an acrylic/vinyl hybrid and IS recommended for mural and outdoor work.

Flashe seems to be flatter/dryer and has a slight amonia smell, (like casein) but it is more widely available compared to Polycolor.

I'm currently trying out some Chroma Atelier Absolute Matte. It is reasonably priced, with brilliant, opaque colors (and even blending ability when sprayed). It also doesn't color shift much upon drying.

I just ordered a few of the similar Chromacolors to compare them to (in bottles this time - I wasn't too happy with the tube colors I tried years ago).

I would prefer dropper/squeeze bottles for ease of mixing and fluid consistancy. Squeezing, knifing and watering stiffer tube paints is time consuming

I also used some vinyl cell colors years ago in some realistic/illustration type painting. They were from some LA company whose name I forget (not Cel Vinyl) and it is probably not made anymore. What was nice was that these paints were single artist pigments and named as such (instead of mysterious cel paint blends). I put them in little glass medicine dropper bottles for even more dispensing convenience.

I think these kind of paints are under rated. Many of the "lowbrow" pop style artists (like my faves "Shag" and Tim Biskup) use, or combine, vinyl acrylics in their gallery works. Probably a reflection of their animator/illustrator origins.

LightDancer
11-18-2005, 06:38 PM
I have absolutely no idea, but my Maimeri professional grade watercolors are absolutely fabulous. So they certainly have some good products. Good luck! :)

Einion
11-18-2005, 08:29 PM
Can anyone tell me their experience with either Maimeri's Polycolor or L&B Flashe paints?I've use Flashe a few times, they are a little grainy (not really enough to be a problem unless you're very conscious of surface) but overall are a uniform consistency - about that of thick cream - dry very matt and most of the range is opaque. Oh and they smell quite nice! Is there a particular application you're interested in?

There are a few relevant links in the Online acrylic resources (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=297922) thread.

After more digging I discovered Maimeri's polycolor acrylics are really vinyl paints like the Flashe paints.Yep they are. And just like Flashe one of the uses for which the manufacturer specifically recommends them in mural work, q.v. the second paragraph in the quote! I don't really know the significance but just like Flashe they also aren't made with the same pigment selection you typically see in artists' paint which I've always found odd; I can't see why all the common, and popular, single-pigment colours that are reliably stable aren't used instead of some oddball mixtures (no cadmiums in Polycolor is deliberate, cadmium pigments can fade in damp conditions when exposed to UV light).

I think because of the way they are priced that it mostly comes down to keeping the cost moderate and fairly uniform for something they hope will be used in fairly large quantities (although even top-of-the range acrylics work out very inexpensive if bought in large container sizes).

Einion

Einion
11-18-2005, 08:52 PM
I've never seen acrylics dry "spottily". Each pigment will have it's own finish (gloss or matte)...I think that's the way the author meant, but it's not very clear is it?

As Tina mentions I like a uniform finish myself and I think it's the best idea overall for ease of relative values judgements while working, without having to try to adjust the finish with mediums. Some ranges dry to quite a uniform finish - satin/semi-matt typically.


What was nice was that these paints were single artist pigments and named as such (instead of mysterious cel paint blends). Hi, welcome to WC! and the acrylics forum. Yeah, the names in cel paints can be annoyingly vague can't they but with 1,800 colours in one range simple names can't be easy!

Einion

a. ladd
11-19-2005, 05:02 PM
I think Cel Vinyl has a more discernable range of aptly named, single pigment colors. Chromacolour cel paints are more bewildering.

Polycolor's selection is not much odder than some of Absolute Matte's colors. But, again, AM has quite a few cadmiums - which is nice compared to Holbein's more fugitive Acryla Gouache range.

waterlady
11-20-2005, 05:09 PM
I am glad I found this thread as I had a new student yesterday who had picked up these french vinyl paints that she new nothing about and neither did I. Now I do, thanks. Her tube of Cyan blue came out of the tube in little rubbery bits and we were able to make it creamy again with a lot of mashing with water. I think maybe it had gotten too cold. Next week I will try and see if they can be mixed with acrylic medium or other acrylic paints and share what I have learned here with her.
Devon.

Einion
11-20-2005, 08:07 PM
Her tube of Cyan blue came out of the tube in little rubbery bits and we were able to make it creamy again with a lot of mashing with water. Oh yeah, I forgot that Flashe has a tendency to sort of gel when stored!

Einion