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DLGardner
07-02-2005, 01:14 AM
It is with pleasure that I introduce our July Master of the Month painter Edourd Manet, the father of Impressionism and yet an artist who never chose to be so titled.

In this discourse Iíve changed the font color to blue for information that may help you assemble technique for your paintings. Several of these paragraphs include references to artists that Manet studied under and whose technique he himself emulated. Following the links will help you assimilate technique and understanding of how this artist achieved his own style.

Edourd Manet
French painter from 1832-1833

[IMG]http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Jul-2005/8002-manet.jpg
Student of Thomas Couture (http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/art.asp?aid=752)
Brother-in-law of Berthe Morisot (http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/morisot/)
MANET, EDOUARD (1832-1883),
Manet once said he wanted to create "not great art, but sincere art."

Without a doubt, Edouard Manet was born into the ranks of the Parisian bourgeoisie. His mother was a woman of refinement and goddaughter of Charles Bernadotte, the Crown Prince of Sweden. His father, Auguste Manet, was a magistrate and judge who hoped that Edouard would someday follow in his footsteps. Edouard, however, was not particularly gifted in scholarly endeavors but rather showed promise in the arts. To avoid being pushed into a profession he did not enjoy, he opted to become a merchant seaman. In 1850, after his enlistment at sea, he began his formal art training. He entered the academic studio environment of Thomas Couture, where he studied until 1856.

Thomas Couture taught Manet to love technique for its own sake. From Couture, Manet learned how to use outline expressively, how to obtain a lively effect with broken brushstrokes, and how to achieve strong lighting with a minimum of tones.

Manet wanted to use this technical knowledge to portray modern life in a spontaneous way. But Couture and other conservative French painters preferred sentimental storytelling.

Manet visited Germany, Italy and the Netherlands to study the work of the Old Masters. Although influences during these early studio years were Dutch painter Frans Hals and Spanish painters Diego Valazquez and Francisco Goya, he preferred to reflect the ideas and images of current times rather than to concentrate on the past. He assumed the philosophy of contemporary realism to reflect what was happening in his own time. This was a strong departure from what most other artists of his period were doing.

Velazquez's (http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/velazquez/) work became crucial to the development of Manet's technique: admiring his revolutionary disregard for the conventions of perspective in the background of his portrait of the actor Pablo de Valladolid (http://www.artchive.com/artchive/V/velazquez/vallodid.jpg.html), Manet remarked that this was "perhaps the most astounding bit of painting ever done."

Manet's art also grew out of study and admiration of the Dutch painter Frans Hals (http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/hals/) who left a permanent impression on him when he discovered his works on a visit to Holland in 1872. Hals was famed in his own time for his virtuosity of technique, and for the bold and rapid handling of paint, which sets him apart from most of his contemporaries. Manet seized on this technique as a means of giving freshness and immediacy to his own paintings of modern life

Manetís paintings featured everyday subjects, and depicted street urchins, cafť scenes, Spanish bullfights, old beggars, and drunkards - subjects far removed from Manet's circle of economic background and not what most Parisians preferred to have been recorded. In their eyes, it went against what was then considered acceptable and proper and was of course, dismissed by the general public. This distressed Manet as his heart was to be accepted in the much respected Salon de Paris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Salon). Contrary to his desires, Manet became part of a strong group of rejected artists who formed the original Salon des Refuses exhibition.

One early Salon exhibition included the now famous scene of a trio of picnickers, two clothed gentlemen and one nude female ("Dejeuner sur l'herbe" or Luncheon on the Grass), about which much has since been hypothesized. It attracted immediate attention, but was banned by the critics. This very exhibition launched Edouard Manet as the champion for all young painters, those who encountered the same rejection and scorn from critics and the public. He became a central figure in the then-hot dispute between academic and rebellious art factions.

At this same time, Paris was going through a major transformation. Modernization and revitalization programs were implemented, and physical, cultural and social change was afoot. It was this connection to a modern Paris that Manet chose to concentrate on in his work. Imagine the spirit and electricity in a city going through such transformation! It energized Manet's work and allowed him to experiment with a method of paint application that loosened tight detail and near pictorial duplication. The difference in his work and the highly finished canvases approved of by the academy, especially by the Salon, shocked the fashionable society.

In addition, his style originated a look referred to as "snapshot"--quick, simple color areas and vivid brush techniques. Later, artists like Degas followed Manet with this style, as did many others, and slowly the process known as Impressionism was born.

It wasn't until 1861 that Manet finally was accepted into the formal Salon with his work "Guitar Player" (1861), now hangs in the Metropolitan Museum in New York City. It represented Manet's great emphasis on acceptance by the Salon. He felt that the only way an artist of his time could be successful was through recognition by the Salon.

It had never been Manet's intention to shock or repulse with his work. He was not a radical artist, nor was he a bohemian, as his critics had thought. He was a newly married man, well mannered and well bred and a member of high society.

In 1866 the French novelist …mile Zola, who championed the art of Manet in the newspaper Figaro, became a close friend of the painter. He was soon joined by the young group of French impressionist painters, Edgar Degas, Claude Monet, Auguste Renoir, Alfred Sisley, Camille Pissarro, and Paul Cťzanne, who were influenced by Manet's art and who, in turn, influenced him, particularly in the use of lighter colors and an emphasis on the effects of light. While he offered support and financial aid to his artist friends, he chose never to exhibit with them; his focus remained centered on the Salon.

In 1870, Paris was besieged by the Franco-Prussian war and Manet enlisted as a gunner in the National Guard. Paintings of that period depict his sentiments, his loathing of war and what it extracts from its people.
Contradictions of tone and content in his later works energize the scenes and draw the viewer in.

While he did not gain recognition for his work until late in his life, in 1882, only one year prior to his death, Manet was awarded the Legion of Honor for his influence on Parisian art. Manet died on April 30, 1883.
Besides many watercolors and pastels, he left 420 oil paintings.

Portions of this discourse taken from ďartwork.comĒ Manet's formula : "I paint what I see, and not what others like to see".

During this exercise we will be painting either of the following two images:


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Jul-2005/8002-Berthe.jpg

Portrait of Berthe
1872
Oil on canvas
21 1/2 x 15 in. (55 x 38 cm)
Private collection, Paris
(Larger image here (http://www.dcorc.co.uk/berthemorisot.jpg) )

Manet's portraits are more finished, more defined than those of his Impressionist friends. His portrait of Bertha Morisot was painted in 1872. Morisot, also a painter, was very much influenced by Manetís style of painting. She modeled for him often. Berthe married Manetís brother Eugene.



One of his later paintings

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Jul-2005/8002-30792-lilacssm.jpg

Lilacs in a Vase
c. 1882
Oil on canvas
21 1/16 x 16 3/8 in. (54 x 42 cm)
Nationalgalerie, Berlin

(Larger image here (http://www.dcorc.co.uk/lilacs.jpg) )

Manetís approach to still-life painting was characterized by spare compositions and a monochromatic palette selectively spiked by bursts of color. He was not inclined to fill a picture with the visual overkill but kept his still life simple and to the point.

He used paint of a medium thickness with a yogourt-like texture, and his strokes were long whenever they could be and applied wet-in-wet whenever possible.

I hope you enjoyed the discourse and that you plan on joining us this month!

Dianne

dcorc
07-02-2005, 03:23 AM
Thanks Dianne, good stuff! (and good to have you here again :) )

Hoping lots of people wil join us, this month. (I'd like to try the "lilacs" still-life, here)

Dave

Pars
07-02-2005, 09:19 AM
Dianne,

What a wonderful job you've done on Manet; he is certainly among my favourite impressionists. I learned some interesting new facts from reading your MOM.

I haven't painted in oils for near onto 15 years (they were stolen from my cabin with all my art supplies) so I am more than hesitant to join this month's effort, but I have this tingling feeling and I might just go out and buy just a few tubes and give this one a go. Might being a rather large operative word! :)

DLGardner
07-02-2005, 09:34 AM
Thanks for the links, Dave.
I'm thinking I'll probably try both. Berisot is intriging and I'll start with her. I can't paint until Monday though. I'll do the lilacs too after you get started and learn from your mistakes (smile). Just keep us posted step by step on the challenges. I'm sure I will entangle plenty of my own.

Pars, I do hope you join us.

Dianne

artbabe21
07-02-2005, 11:07 AM
Wow Dianne! This is exciting to read about Manet. Fabulous! I'm so very intrigued with the painting of Berthe as I studied it closely at Musee d' Orsay. Though this is tempting I am going to be gone much of July. I'd love to do a quick try though! :)

I'll sticky this thread so folks will see it. You may want to put a link on the Monet thread to point folks here. Thanks Dianne & I look forward to seeing both of these painted by you!!!! :)

dcorc
07-02-2005, 11:26 AM
Dianne - I'll very much look forward to seeing you do the portrait,

(and I'll be delighted to demostrate how not to do the lilacs! :D )

Zoe - go get those oilpaints right now!! :) (sometimes one just has to be tough, in other people's best interests :p )

Cath - it will be good to have you "aboard" too - and thanks for "sticking" the thread (I did do it yesterday, and unstuck some of the earlier months, but those changes all got swept away with the data loss :( )

Dave

DLGardner
07-02-2005, 12:15 PM
Cath, yes he does have an interesting bio. The saddest thing is that he died from gangrene of the foot. Typical artist not taking care of himself, totally involved in his work. I do need to learn from that myself.

Dave I'm sure you'll do great on the flowers. I'm the one who will have trouble. Do come up with an easy solution I can copy.

I agree with Dave Zoe. We need your input here!
Dianne

Pars
07-02-2005, 02:26 PM
Well, Dave can be mighty forceful. I went out to see if I could get oils locally but no luck. It's too too hot to travel to the big City so I'll wait until next week and see if I can convince myself on Tuesday that I need to paint a Manet.

Thank you Dave and Dianne for the encouragement.

dcorc
07-02-2005, 02:31 PM
Well, Dave can be mighty forceful.

LOL - it will certainly be nice to have you join in, Zoe :)

Dave

guillot
07-02-2005, 08:51 PM
Here's my start .. no preliminary drawing - just going for it.

First is the very initial - blocking in some color and trying to get the angles of the vase and table.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Jul-2005/5957-beginning_stages_from_the_beginning.jpg

I sat outside in the shade while the girls swam in the pool - was quite nice. Here's another update after blocking in some of the main colors and working on the leaves. Hoping to complete this one real quick.

Seems to me - lots of broken colors here and there - so double loading the brush and proceeding wet in wet.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Jul-2005/5957-beginning_stages_1.jpg

Thanks,
Tina

bravynn
07-02-2005, 08:56 PM
Nice introduction to Manet Dianne. I'm going to be busy around the middle of this month moving my mother from Florida and getting her settled here in Tennessee, but I'm still going to go for at least one of the Manet paintings. I will be trying for a likeness of Berthe....and I would like to try the lilacs. I've never done flowers before. Main thing is trying, and keep trying. I'm sure this is going to be fun. I read that Manet did a LOT of scraping until he got it the way he wanted. LOL ;-)

Dave, thank you for posting the larger pictures.

Barbara

bravynn
07-02-2005, 09:03 PM
Hi Tina!

Nice start, and the shade while watching the children play in the pool sounds like a relaxing part of the day. We've been having 90- 100 something degrees around here, so sitting in the shade wouldn't even suit me. haha...if I wanted to sit in the shade, I would push the grandchildren out and sit in the pool myself while I paint. ;-) The grandchildren have already gone home so I'm just funnin'. Although my labs would probably jump in the pool with me. enough silliness....lets have some fun!

Barbara

guillot
07-02-2005, 09:50 PM
Hi Barbara !!! Was just talking to my best friend in Memphis earlier and she was telling me how hot it was. I'm a born and raised Tennessee'n myself, so I know how the humidity gets, and at those degrees - very suffocating indeed. I'm in El Paso right now, and it's very hot!! Been running 105-106 degrees - but the shade is nice, especially wnen the humidity is relatively low. So, not too bad. Just having a hard time during the hottest part of the days keeping my studio cooled enough - so - I wanted to paint, and I'm glad that I found a good spot to do so.

I can see here - that my angles are off on the table - should be low right - higher left - which is OK - but I just have the angle off for sure. Funny how things change when you post them :D

Was of course interrupted to fix dinner, so I'm going to get back out there and paint some more.

Thanks !! Looking forward to your Manet portrait !!!

Tina

guillot
07-03-2005, 07:08 AM
I forgot to say how I'm beginning on this one. (which is probably incorrect I might add) - But anyway, I believe the only colors I have on my pallette for this is flake white, burnt umber, yellow ocher, chromium oxide green and ultramarine blue. I began with of course the background thinned with turps, painted in the outline of the vase, realized it was closer to the left than to the right, corrected that, layed in the base color for the foreground (table), then I went back and applied thicker variations of burnt umber, yellow ocher and chromium oxide green in the background. Took a paper towel and wiped out the flower areas, applied values of gray in the flowers, and tried my best on placement for the darkest areas too. Took a moment to consider whether he applied the leaves first, or the flowers first, and it appeared to me that he painted the leaves first - so I painted the leaves, and now it's on to the rest of the flowers. I fear the vase will be the most difficult part :D

Thanks Dianne for the wonderful background research and for hosting this month. Great to have you back over here.

Tina

guillot
07-03-2005, 10:54 AM
OK - you guys are making me feel like a thread hogger :p

Here's another update - getting to this point - the realization that my vase is too long :eek: Will compromise somehow.

Thanks,
Tina

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-Jul-2005/5957-2nd_stage_1.jpg

Pars
07-03-2005, 11:05 AM
OMG, Tina, I am so impressed. You are nearly finished, and with a wonderful MOM, and I haven't even bought my paint.

Hog away; those lilacs look excellent.

artbabe21
07-03-2005, 11:23 AM
WOW...Tina! Such a change already! Lovin it! Your foliage is super...you ARE rockin' girl! So good to have you in oils, Dianne too! :)

Zoe, get thee thine paints.....it will be so GOOD for you! Berthe is waiting! :)

Look forward to seeing your work too Barbara!

guillot
07-03-2005, 02:29 PM
Hi Zoe, get you some paints girl and get busy :) Thanks for the comments too.

Hi cath - thank you too for the comments. Hope you are doing well and hope you get to join in !!

Ok - well - I think I'm about finished. First I'll show you the mess I ended up with in the vase :eek: I finally figured that there was no absolute way I could get it all exact:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-Jul-2005/5957-3rd_stage_a.jpg

Then, I just tried to get as close as I could and let it go. I'm still not sure if the vase is convincing enough - but I'm letting this dry, and will touch up some of the final highlights when it's dry.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-Jul-2005/5957-3rd_stage_b.jpg

Thanks for looking on and I hope to see more than just me here :angel: Feeling like a real loner today - but, it is 4th of July weekend, I just have nothing better to do. :)

Tina

artbabe21
07-03-2005, 03:31 PM
Beaut-------iful Tina!! Your skills have progressed extaordinarily in the time I have know you! WOW.....so happy for you! :) I think the water looks great maybe someday I will actually paint water...lol...but i love faces so I paint them instead

guillot
07-03-2005, 06:41 PM
OMG - thank you Cath !!! I owe a lot of it to doing these exercises, and for some reason - I've just gotten to the point of understanding what "just paint" really means. I've finally, I think, passed some kind of speedbump, in that I don't dabble over the initial drawing or anything. Maybe I owe a lot of that to the gallery I'm taking classes with - but definitely I feel a change in myself. I'm very proud of this one so far, and the Monet - for these I have truly done completely on my own, without any kind of drawing, without any kind of insight, and just I think really beginning to "see" and understand a lot more than I think I did before. I believe maybe I only spent a total of 4 hours on this one so far. But I tried to move like I would think that Manet might have (quick) :D

These exercises alone have helped me to grow tremendously - and I hope it's helping others too. That was in fact the reason behind the exercises - to learn all of these different techniques, and to study the old masters more in depth, their idealogies, their beliefs, and especially - their palettes :p

Thanks again - you've made my day with those words of yours and I'm glad that something is showing. (your such a dearie, and I miss ya)

Tina

DLGardner
07-03-2005, 07:03 PM
Very lovely Tina. Thank you for your demo! You'll be a hard act to follow!

Dianne

guillot
07-03-2005, 09:04 PM
Hi Dianne !! :) Oh, I don't think so. :D :o That's a very flattering statement, but I don't feel that it was really that difficult - although - it's definitely not a complete or perfect (far from) copy.

I actually believe the portrait is probably more difficult. The palette was simple for the still life (or at least the one that I used) to get at least kind of close to the actual colors. It might even work for the portrait - not sure but would at least need a red somewhere in there. The background should of course be darker than mine ( I think anyway). I think if everyone just sticks to shapes, rather than subjects - it would work out for anyone I think - especially if you compare mine to the original - but you'll see quite a lot of shapes are way off in my copy . The Monet probably helped me with this one - in respect of laying a color and leaving it alone. I think I had the most problem with the vase - which I'm still not quite sure is convincing enough! I did give my actual palette earlier, in case anyone is searching for colors to use.

But here it is again if anyone wants to know:
Flake white, burnt umber, yellow ochre, ivory black, chromium oxide green and ultramine blue. And I also explained my process in detail, right to the finish - if it helps anyone at all, in an earlier post. (probably not the exact right way, nor the way he might've done it - but I'm proud of the result nonetheless). As much as I dread still lifes, and am mostly unspired by them (in which I think everyone, or many, already know this) - I really enjoyed this one -

thanks for the comments and for the adventure .... ;)

Tina

krispee
07-04-2005, 08:12 AM
hi all
decided to join in after i saw Manet`s portrait of Berthe Moriset, loved the muted tones and couldn`t resist....

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Jul-2005/46276-berthemoriset_paint.jpg

lovely work on the still Guillot....

krispee

guillot
07-04-2005, 09:24 AM
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Great job Krispee !!!! I like the way you handled the lighting, subtle and nice.

Tina

DLGardner
07-04-2005, 10:43 AM
Very nice Krispee! Great colors. Want to share your palette?

Dianne

Pars
07-04-2005, 10:48 AM
Yes, Krispee, impressive. I'd love to hear your palette, especially as I just bought some paint with a specific palette in mind and one I've never tried that Peoplepainter (Lisa) shared in Portraits.

Seeing your work has me swallowing hard on attempting this at all, especially as a first back in oils.

Pars
07-04-2005, 10:49 AM
Tina, your finish is super. It has all the ingredients that make a painting shine and I think you've handled the vase expertly. It reads very well. Congratulations.

krispee
07-04-2005, 11:12 AM
thanks peeps, my main pallette was thus:
titanium white; yellow ochre light; lemon yellow; italian earth; burnt sienna; cad red; raw umber; ivory black extra.
smaller amounts of:
cad green and magenta.

to be honest i was trying to make sense of the picture Manet painted instead of painting blind, trying to paint intelligently...if you know what i mean.....and the 2 rings of black to the left(as you look at it) by her face i couldn`t quite figure....what are they and should i have perhaps left them out if i couldn`t make sense of them....everything else i could understand, what it was and why it was in the picture, but not that....

krispee

LGHumphrey
07-04-2005, 11:56 AM
Did this Saturday evening instead of my usual daily portrait. Oil on paper, 33.5 X 43 cm i.e. 13 X 17 inches. Alla prima, over a pencil sketch (with grid) I had done in the morning.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Jul-2005/60616-4.jpg


Lawrence
Torrelles, Spain

A Few Pigments
07-04-2005, 08:28 PM
I was thinking of trying these two paintings, but after seeing the high quality work thatís already been done I think Iíll carry on with my other pokey little paintings. :(

Have fun everyone. Looks like itís going to be a great month. Good luck everyone. :)

I am getting better at paint by numbers though. :clap:

DLGardner
07-05-2005, 12:40 AM
Bruce, don't be silly. Your work is as impressive as any of ours. Do please join us...unless of course you are still working on that da Vinci of yours.

BTW, did you paint that Aragorn in your tiny? VERY :clap: :clap: Nice job!


Dianne

DLGardner
07-05-2005, 12:49 AM
Lawrence, this is a lovely portrait as well. Very nice. Thanks for joining us.

guillot
07-05-2005, 01:28 AM
I was thinking of trying these two paintings, but after seeing the high quality work thatís already been done I think Iíll carry on with my other pokey little paintings. :(

Have fun everyone. Looks like itís going to be a great month. Good luck everyone. :)

I am getting better at paint by numbers though. :clap:

oh now come on Bruce - you helped push this thread from the Monet. :) It's never been about who does 'quality work' but about the learning experience alone. That should not discourage anyonw from participating. That, in itself, is the reason behind these exercises - so that people can learn - and one can't learn unless they participate. I've learned so MUCH from doing these exercises, and they have helped me improve my work so much! The Level's of "quality of work" are not commonly discussed here - it's a forum to learn. Get your paints out now man !!! I sincerely hope that you decide to join in.

Tina

A Few Pigments
07-05-2005, 01:33 AM
How did you know about the da Vinci? LOL There are no secrets on WC are there. Okay Dianne you talked me into it. Iíll start with the portrait.

My avatar isnít a painting itís from The Lord of the Rings movie site http://www.lordoftherings.net/
But thank you for thinking I could paint something that looks that good.

A Few Pigments
07-05-2005, 01:38 AM
Hi Tina, okay I will do the portrait. Iím starting tonight. By the way, you did an incredible job on the vase. :clap:

guillot
07-05-2005, 01:46 AM
Thanks Bruce!! I keep looking at it (the vase)and am still not totally convinced. But I can say that it's my first vase, and my first set of flowers. I don't like doing still lifes - I'm more of a sucker for portraits myself. It just came across to be a quick painting to me, and of course following Manet the best that I could. I've still never painted an apple !!! People always say that you can't paint anything until you've painted an apple. SORRY - totally unspired by an apple . Your words are not only encouraging to me , but to many!!!!! Keep up the great work, and the wonderful support for everyone !!!

Tina

DLGardner
07-05-2005, 12:19 PM
Ok, just to show I am going to do this project, here is my start.

Blocked in shapes, got some blending and soft edges and I'm sure I'm going to have to remold again but I got some of the relationships going.

c'mon folks, holiday's over time for work!! :wave:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Jul-2005/8002-Wipman.jpg

Dianne

A Few Pigments
07-05-2005, 09:08 PM
Wow Dianne, your block in looks better than some finished paintings Iíve seen.


Hi Tina, you know that whole thing about apples started with Cezanneís apples. He only used them because he wanted to play secondaries against primaries.

And this book by C. J. Bulliet helped move people in the direction of thinking Cezanneís apples were the best ever painted. It was called Apples and Madonnas http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y01Y5268751Y3717185/t/002-1825917-7186465

The bit below is from the book Composition in Landscape and Still Life by Ernest W. Watson.

ďSome years ago in a book entitled Apples and Madonnas, by C. J. Bulliet, the author declared that ďAn apple by Paul Cezanne is of more consequence artistically than a head of the Madonna by Raphael.Ē This startling manifesto, certainly a sensational declaration of the basic truth that we are discussing here, did serve to dramatize it, and the book was a contribution to the revolt against sentimental, illustrative painting. Although it was an assertion of Cezanneís superiority as a painter, the authorís real purpose was to emphasize the esthetic qualities of a picture regardless of its subject matter. It was an arresting way of saying that a painting of the most ordinary subjects can be greater than one which is dedicated to the noblest of sentiments.Ē


I tried to block the basic shapes in last night. Iím working on a different size canvas so the proportions are a bit tricky to reproduce on my canvas. Iím trying to use Tinaís method of just painting without a drawing, but I did divide the canvas and the picture in half vertically and horizontally. I usually work in a more contemplative way, so this could be a disaster. I have to let this dry before I work on it again.

My palette is:
Grumbacher red
Naples yellow
Prussian blue (mixed with raw sienna for green)
Raw sienna
Burnt umber
Raw umber
Ivory black
T white, Z white, F white (mixed 1/3 of each)

The original painting measures 21.5 x 15 inches, 55 x 38 cm
My painting is 16 x 20 inches, canvas panel.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Jul-2005/42249-My_BERTHE_MORISOT_500_001.JPG

DLGardner
07-05-2005, 09:29 PM
Thanks Bruce for your comments on my blocking in. And thank you for all that info on Cezanne and his apples. I have to admit, I'm pretty much like Tina. I'd much rather eat my fruit than paint them, but I have seem some gorgeous still lifes.

Your blocking in is coming along great. I like your palette. Never thought about using raw sienna for green. I'll have to try that. Someone gave me some tubes of it and I never used it as I don't like the color by itself. Always learning!

Dianne

A Few Pigments
07-05-2005, 10:43 PM
Hi Dianne,
Raw sienna and Prussian blue make a nice blue green similar to earth green and viridian. Yellow ochre, when mixed with Prussian blue makes a nice green as well. Burnt sienna, raw sienna, burnt umber and raw umber can be used with prussian blue to make greens. With ultramarine blue the siennas and umbers only make grays or browns, but ultramarine blue and yellow ochre make a nice olive green. The exact colours you get will very a bit from one manufacturer to another.

All of this works out great for me because I like the palette of the old masters (1400 to 1700). I donít know how well these greens would go with cads and some of the new, bright pigments many people use today.

DLGardner
07-05-2005, 11:39 PM
Bruce, thanks for the heads up on the Prussian blue combos. I haven't used that color for a long time. Must go dig it out of my retired tubes!

Here is an update on mine. I'm way off on the face but it needs drying and I'm tired so she'll have to wait until tomorrow.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Jul-2005/8002-Wipman2.jpg


Who's next?

guillot
07-06-2005, 12:06 AM
Coming along great Bruce :clap:

Dianne - your portrait is amazing :clap: :clap: You painted it very quickly!!

Tina

DLGardner
07-06-2005, 11:19 AM
Tina, its not done yet!!!!

Dianne

DLGardner
07-06-2005, 06:05 PM
I'm at a stand still. I think its done now, maybe.

I see everyone else is still over there doing Monet. Guess they got the spelling mixed up. I sure hope someone sends folks this way. These are a great set of paintings to do. I had a joy doing Berthe.

Dianne
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Jul-2005/8002-Wipman3.jpg

A Few Pigments
07-06-2005, 11:13 PM
Hi Dianne, your copy is wonderful. :clap: :clap: :clap: I think you captured a warmth that Manet missed. You made Berthe more human and more feminine. I like your painting more than I like Manets. :)

Donít worry about more people joining this thread. Some people are still working on a Monet, including me, but that hasnít stoped me from starting a Manet. And of course a lot of people are on vacation now too. Iím sure as the month goes on many more people will join. These paintings by Manet are too good to pass up.

DLGardner
07-06-2005, 11:45 PM
Thanks Bruce. I know, it usually take a week or so into the month before folks start in.

I think my Berthe needs eye surgery. I may get back to her. Her left eye is sick.

Dianne

krispee
07-07-2005, 11:31 AM
d_garden: good job on Berthe, you seem to have a more impressionistic style to your work...i have to say that we seem to be getting to know her a little i think, don`t you, by doing these little studies...?
i agree with you on your self critique regarding the eye, the left eye(as you look at it) appears to be a little too far up and the crease cuts into the eye a bit more and down and around more, may not have been true to the real Berthe Moriset but i guess that`s how Manet saw her......your facial features are good, maybe a little longer in the face and straighter on towards camera, but that`s no bad thing, doesn`t have to be exactly to original, this is your Berthe :D

not sure if you`re interested but i used a little magenta for the hat and coat highlights, delicate and slight though they may be....and don`t be afraid of the green background, really sets off the muted colours of the face.....in fact i had wanted to add a little of the green of the background to the face, bring some continuity, but it was too late when i`d thought of it, and maybe i wasn`t brave enough either lol....another time maybe....

krispee

bravynn
07-07-2005, 10:43 PM
Well, here's my first wip. Doesn't look much like her. Hopefully, I get closer to her appearance in the following works. This was done earlier this afternoon. Worked on Berthe more tonight, and it's looking different. LOL Will try to send this one up tomorrow. How come when I do portraits, there almost always seems to be a part of me, that resembles me in the painting. Maybe if I do a self-portrait, I wouldn't do this. :eek: :)

Anyway, here's the ugly stage, and hope to improve it over the next few times of working on it. I know I don't have the values right on this one. Still learning how to 'see'.

Everyone is doing wonderful on their paintings. :clap: At least yours looks like her. haha I love painting though, so I'll continue on.

Barbara

bravynn
07-07-2005, 10:59 PM
ugh! Now that I see it in my post, it does look more like meeeee. :rolleyes::o

I forgot to add what colors I'm using:
vermillion
naples yellw
tit white
brnt umber
prussion blue
brnt sienna
raw sienna
yellw ochre
cad yellw light
lemon yellw
not using black unless it's a very tiny part, if I think I might need it.

Barbara

bravynn
07-08-2005, 01:17 PM
Second Wip of Berthe.

Tina, thank you for stating that it's not the quality, as much as it's the learning experience. Some people I've seen don't say much or nothing at all to those that don't paint as well as them. Just an observation. Or perhaps, they are so busy that they zoom through the threads and randomly reply. I'm always grateful for feedback so I can continue learning. That's one of the many things Wet Canvas is for.

Will continue working on the painting. :)

Barbara

artbabe21
07-08-2005, 01:44 PM
HI Barbara! ;wave: I'm so glad you have joined the project! This is terrific! You paint extremely well. That's not the prerequsite of course, it is about the learning. I think you have the essence of her...close likeness. The second one looks like her chin might be a tad long? What are you using for your black?

I think I am going to have to try this one. You have inspired me to give it a shot. I printed out the image but can't get to work on it til I get back from a trip so it might be the end of the month. I look forward to more of your progress! :)

A Few Pigments
07-08-2005, 01:59 PM
Hi Barbara, you painting is coming along very nicely. Donít be afraid to use black for a copy of a Manet. Manet, unlike Monet, did use black in his paintings. Here is a list of the colours Manet comonely usedĒ
Led and zinc white
Black
Vermilion
Red alizarin lake
Raw sienna
Raw umber
Yellow ochre
Red earth or red lead
Ultramarine blue
Cobalt blue
Cerulean blue
Viridan green
Cobalt green
Chrome green

It was Monet who started this idea that no artist should use black. There was a scientific paper published during Monetís life that concluded that there was no black in nature, just extremely dark blues that were so dark they looked like black. Monet believed that since he wanted to reproduce all the colours in nature he shouldnít use black since there was no black in nature. I really think he had the wrong end of the stick on this one.

If there are only extremely dark blues that are so dark they looked like black then ivory black (also called bone black since itís made from burnt animal bones) would be the perfect black for the black found in nature. Ivory black has a blue tint and so is identical to the black in nature, which is a blue thatís so dark it looks like black. In other words the black that occurs naturally in nature is a blue black and ivory black is a blue black so ivory black is the same as the naturally occurring black found in nature.

One problem with using any black is that the blacks in paint are slow drying pigments. Raw umber is a fast drying pigment so in my copy I mixed about 25 percent raw umber into the ivory black to make the ivory black dry faster. The two pigments need to be mixed thoroughly on the palette; otherwise the different drying rates could cause a problem.

artbabe21
07-08-2005, 02:53 PM
Thanks Bruce! You're a wealth of information! Tell me about how black doesn't dry...lol...I even used bacl M.Graham, which is a slower drying paint to begin with!! First time I ever had used black btw! I like the idea of mixing so it will dry quicker.

A Few Pigments
07-08-2005, 03:22 PM
Hi Cathleen, thank you, but itís just my opinion and as the quote in your post says ďBeware of opinion dressed as fact.Ē I just know what I read and it could be wrong. I always feel better if people check out what I say for themselves.

guillot
07-09-2005, 12:09 AM
Tina, thank you for stating that it's not the quality, as much as it's the learning experience. Some people I've seen don't say much or nothing at all to those that don't paint as well as them. Just an observation. Or perhaps, they are so busy that they zoom through the threads and randomly reply. I'm always grateful for feedback so I can continue learning. That's one of the many things Wet Canvas is for. Barbara

Hi Barbara - You're very welcome and thank you for hearing me. :D Everything that we do in art is a learning experience! Regardless of stature!! There is always something new to be learned. Here were are pushing ourselves to learn "something" "anything" - and out of these experiences, I sincerely doubt anyone can't say that they didn't learn 'something'. Whether it's from within or spiritual , or from an eye-awakening moment of "ah'ha"! Absolutely - these are not intended to be 'showoff' threads, but a learning experience and camaderie unsurpassed so that we can all experience learning from one-another.. regardless of levels of "experience". Thank you again for noticing and elaborating on what this is really all about and especially for hearing me.

I will elaborate on what I have learned from this painting personally :

- it doesn't take much to make a lot - and it doesn't take long to get there. But you have to have in your mind a feeling of "letting go" and just "letting go"!
So far I think everyone is just doing fantastic :clap: with this one - especially don't get caught up in technicalities - just let yourself go! This one has been a great freeing experience for me!

I came back to edit that also, I took my Monet and my Manet to the gallery last night for my painting session with the owner. He was quite impressed, but also said that he felt they were "unfinished" - highlight wise. I never stopped to realize that in my works - I do tend to stop just before the grand finale ;) But this has seriously made me think that sometimes my patience outruns me. Definitely something to think about on my part.

Tina

A Few Pigments
07-09-2005, 11:54 AM
Has anyone else noticed that both subjects have their heads turned a little to the right, both subjects are looking directly at the viewer and both subjects have an enigmatic smile? Or is it just my imagination? May be I need to get more sleep.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jul-2005/42249-Berthe_and_Lisa_500.jpg

Pars
07-09-2005, 12:24 PM
Good comparison, Bruce. Think it is a good compositional design and draws the viewer in--like us :D

Everyone's work has been different and thoroughly engaging. Good work by all.

And I'm still here, marveling at how quickly these MOMs go up while I contemplate opening a paint tube <LOL>.

.

antgeek
07-09-2005, 02:37 PM
here is my attempt, may do more on it to improve likeness, tho i am actually happy with this version. this is my first master copy.
9 x 12 panel, oils
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jul-2005/52085-berthe-by-manet-copy.jpg

bravynn
07-11-2005, 01:21 AM
hi Cath, Bruce, Tina, Pars, and Antgeek.
Thanks for the replies, and the 'helps'. Cath, am readying to adjust the chin and the rest. When I first began the sketch, I used charcoal with fixative, and it smudged/smeared with my paint. :wink2:

I've used carbon pencil with fixative before and it didn't smudge. Don't know why it did this with charcoal 'fixed'. :confused: Maybe I should use straight paint from now on? *shrug* I've been to Nashville, TN over the weekend, so didn't get any painting time in. If the light is good enough tomorrow, will get back to painting. We're suppose to have some major storms/rain coming through thanks to Dennis. Cath, can't wait to see your painting. Glad you're joining in. I agree with you and Tina about the 'learning experience' the Masters can be. When I first thought about joining, I was reluctant to dive in since my painting wasn't as good as some of the others, but this isn't a comparison game in all of our painting progressions. It truly is an individual learning experience. I hope those that feel/or have felt the way I did at first will join in. I'm glad I did. :) I think I have made some improvement in the technical areas, and still have a lot to learn in relaxing, and 'letting go/just paint'..... very good points Tina. Thank you. I seem to do better when I'm not in the left brain judging, and concerned too much about the technical parts. I was thinking, monochrome, but doing skin tones...and was having a 'tug of war', plus Berthe's face looks a bit like me in places which I mentioned in another message. geez! lol

I notice the colors look a bit different after the upload then it does on my canvas. Of course, it looks better when seeing it in person. hehe :p

Bruce, thank you for the information about the most used colors Manet used. I didn't know about the slow drying time on the black, nor that ivory black has a blue tint in it. I rarely use black at all, so have never noticed that. I've used black before, and it looked flat/matte. I think a little is fine, but a lot is too much. That's just my opinion. I see the black in the original Berthe, and it looks fine there, and it is monochromatic as well. Who knows what my Berthe will look like NEXT. :D My dark is burnt umber, and prussion blue. Will post again as soon as I can. Usually when it rains pretty heavy, my satellite shuts down off and on, or off completely. Antgeek, good likeness on your Berthe. It's looks great. You could, if you wanted to, tone down, or cool the background. Other then that, it's still a wonderful likeness. :cat:

Barbara

Tom McNeill
07-11-2005, 02:45 PM
Dianne,
Thank you for the information on Manet.
I recently bought a book, "Manet by himself" from a publisher's clearing shop. It cost me 99 pence although the cover price is £11.99.
It consists of letters and comments from the artist along with a large number of his works. Very interesting. It is ISBN 0-316-72809-8.
I hope anyone interested can get it at the price I paid.
Tom.

deLYNNEation
07-12-2005, 12:35 AM
Aaaahhh, we've come to the time of year that I am really interested in Master of the month. Manet, Degas, Van Gogh and then skip over to Fechin. What a lineup.

And the time of year I'm the busiest. I've never posted or participated with the MOM. What are the rules? must I complete the MOM within the scheduled month? Or can I take a rain check? This looks like a good one for me.

thanks

DLGardner
07-12-2005, 12:53 AM
Lynne, the MOMs are continual and you can do them at your leisure! You may not have a much feedback if you come in much later, but there will probably be someone looking on and possibly working with you even if you are a couple months late. I plan on going back and doing some of these this winter because I've been way to busy to keep up with it.

Manet's work is really fun to do. Please do join in when you can. Hope to see your work in the near future!

Dianne

A Few Pigments
07-12-2005, 04:54 PM
Iím having a major problem getting the face right on this one, but Iíll get it sorted out. I think that overall it doesnít look too bad.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Jul-2005/42249-My_BERTHE_MORISOT_500_002.JPG

Pars
07-12-2005, 05:22 PM
Everyone's work is looking great.

Lynne, I'm just beginning to think about blocking out my piece and as I work slow it will be some time before I post. Please join, too, and we can be the late arrivals :D

krispee
07-12-2005, 06:04 PM
few pigments: ok, the eyes and the nose are going in a different direction to the mouth so if you get that sorted then you`ll have a very nice study...remember also that although the middle of the eyes usually disect the end of the mouth anatomically, in manet`s case her mouth is small and that rule doesn`t quite apply to her......nice blocking in though....

krispee

Squib
07-13-2005, 03:48 PM
Just popped in to see how everyone is doing. What wonderful work - well done all of you. I really need to get my act in gear as far as the MOM's go - maybe next month. Keep up the good work.

DLGardner
07-14-2005, 10:42 AM
Bruce you have a nice loose start! I have to do my eyes over again too. I think the reason we are having such a hard time is because the original is crooked.

Dianne

A Few Pigments
07-14-2005, 05:57 PM
Hi Dianne, thank you for your comment about my loose start. Iím trying to keep this one loose and use thick paint to accentuate a loose feeling. I need to ask you how do you mean the original is crooked? I didnít notice anything unusual about the original.


Hi Lorraine, Degas is next month and although I like Degasís work the two paintings for next month look jolly hard. I might wait for something easier like a Turner or a da VinciÖlolÖ


Hi krispee, these faces that are turned a little to one side or the other are tricky to paint. Iím having the same problem with two other paintings Iím working on. Thank you for your help.


Hi Zoe, I hope you get a chance to try one of these Manetsí. Theyíre much easier to do than a Rembrandt.


Hi Tom, thank you for telling us about that book. I didnít know about it. I was wondering if youíve read Techniques of the Great Masters of Art? It has information about three of his paintings: The Picnic, Concert in the Tuileries and Roadmenders in the rue de Moscou. It lists the colours he used and discusses his technique.


Hi antgeek, I think you did an excellent job with your painting, and especially with such a small copy. Mine is 16x20 inches and I wish it was bigger since that would make it easier to paint the face.

DLGardner
07-14-2005, 06:14 PM
Hi Dianne, thank you for your comment about my loose start. Iím trying to keep this one loose and use thick paint to accentuate a loose feeling. I need to ask you how do you mean the original is crooked? I didnít notice anything unusual about the original.

As I studied Manet's painting I found her eyes are crooked.

A Few Pigments
07-14-2005, 06:48 PM
Dianne, I took a closer look and youíre right about the eyes being at an angle. The bit Iím finding most difficult is her nose. Manet seems to have moved her features around to suite his painting.

gaugin
07-16-2005, 11:02 PM
I really love this forum, have wanted to partcipate in the MOM. I didn't know I could jump in at any time. Thanks someone for pointing that out. Do you use the photo posted at the beginning of the thread ? Is there more info I need to get before I join in on this fun?
All of you are doing remarkable work, it is a joy to watch.

There are no facts, only interpretations." Friedrich Nietzsche

A Few Pigments
07-17-2005, 11:49 AM
Hi gaugin, in post one, you can click on the link under the painting you want to copy. This will take you to a larger copy of that painting. ar far as the info you need to do a MOM, thatís up to you. The first post will provide some info about the artist of the month. During the month participating members can post any info they think might be of help to the other participating members. You can do research on your own and post it if you like.

The MOM series was started for WCís members to learn more about the working methods of a wide range of artists so our members could expand their repertoire of methods. Each member id free to learn as much or as little as they want to from the MOMís. The most important thing is to just have fun with them. The MOMís are open to all members regardless of skill level, experience or knowledge.

Good luck with your Manet.

sbeckett
07-21-2005, 02:11 AM
Twofer
Did Berthe on the Fourth weekend. But then looking through an impressionism book I saw a Monet very similar to last month (same bridge), turned a page and saw this Manet. Thought it much better than the Monets -in fact most Monets. It was just as loose but the color is more vibrant and just made more sense. It painted quicker too -maybe i was just "in shape" after Monet but it was 3 sessions against 5 hard-fought days with the Monet.
Manet (yea this guy) always struck me as a boring art-history figure -Olympia-blahblah ; Dejeuner -shocked the Salon-yaddayadda. But beyond those art-book (famous for being famous) pictures is some really good stuff.
Berthe -12x16
River at Argenteuil -22x14
-Steve

DLGardner
07-21-2005, 10:20 AM
Beatiful Steve!

Dianne

A Few Pigments
07-22-2005, 02:41 PM
Hi Steve,
Very nice work on the Manets. I like the warm hues in the background of the portrait of Berthe.

zelig
07-23-2005, 05:21 PM
Hi all,
Firts of all I'd like to congratulate you all for the quality of the works I've seen in this page :clap:
This is my first MOM and I decided to go for the lilacs as I had never painted flowers before. Though the image is not very clear you can see I still have to work on the white parts of the vase. My background is also a bit darker than the original and the shadows . C & Cs are welcome :)

guillot
07-24-2005, 09:03 AM
zelig - wonderful job so far :clap: You are almost done !!

Steve - lovely" Argenteuil" and Berthe. The colors are so lovely in the "Argenteuil" !! You are so talented !!

Bruce - Great job so far. Just don't think of it as an "eye" or a "nose" and look for the shapes and values that make the eye and nose. I always get hung up there myself :) It's coming along nicely !!

Everyone's work is superb!! A wonderful learning experience!

Tina

A Few Pigments
07-24-2005, 07:35 PM
Tina thatís good advice. Monet always said ďDonít look at the objects, just see the colours. I try to keep that in mind, but it doesnít always work. Iíll just have to keep trying.


Zelig you did an excellent job on the vase.


This is my progress so far. It looks more yellow in person. Iím kind of happy with it as it is now and Iím kind of not. Iím thinking of changing the yellow I use most from Naples yellow to cad yellow med. Naples yellow doesnít have much tinting strength. What does everyone else think?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Jul-2005/42249-My_BERTHE_MORISOT_500_003.JPG

zelig
07-27-2005, 05:17 PM
Hi,
Bruce you have a very lively and loose brushstroke, your Berthe is a real example of Impressionism :clap: .
I can't help you with your question about yellow as I never used Naples yellow: all I can see is that the original Berthe does look more yellow, but you said the color of your photo is lighter that the real one...

A Few Pigments
07-27-2005, 09:39 PM
Thank you zelig :)

A Few Pigments
07-31-2005, 07:32 PM
Thank you Dianne for hosting this thread. I learned a lot from the painting I did and you did a great job as a host Dianne. Thank you for all your effort. You are a great host. :clap:

DLGardner
07-31-2005, 07:46 PM
Zelig, welcome to WC and to the MOM thread! Your lilacs are gorgeous. You've done an excellent job.

Bruce, thanks for the kudos. I actually feel like I've been slacking here as usual.

For summertime, I think everyone has done a fantastic job. Thanks for joining in on the July MOM!

artbabe21
07-31-2005, 08:48 PM
Woooohooooooooooo! Another terrific month! Thanks Dianne! :) Such terrific work everyone!! Very inspiring, I hope to do my Berthe still.....

So what's next month??????????????????????????????????????????????? :)

artbabe21
07-31-2005, 08:50 PM
Ah.......DEGAS!! I want to try the ballet dancers in PINK! :)

zelig
08-03-2005, 02:46 PM
Just for the record here is my finished Manet. Thanks Tina & Dianne for your comments!

artbabe21
08-06-2005, 02:49 PM
Zelig......way beautiful finish! Hope you can do Dagas too! :)