PDA

View Full Version : WIP Homage to Anders Zorn, A Kitchen Maid


A Few Pigments
06-13-2005, 10:36 PM
I started working on this 05/19/05 and I just canít get the face right. I just need to finish the face and a few other bits and it will be done. I thought if I posted this someone might be able to tell me where Iím going wrong with the face.

All C&C welcome. Thank you for your help.

1919, Anders Zorn, A Kitchen Maid, oil on canvas. http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/detail.php?ID=846

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Jun-2005/42249-1919_Zorn_A_Kitchen_Maid_oil_500.jpg

12 x 16 inches, oil on canvas panel.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Jun-2005/42249-1919_Zorn_A_Kitchen_Maid_oil_500_001.jpg

Detail

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Jun-2005/42249-1919_Zorn_A_Kitchen_Maid_oil_500_DETAIL_001.jpg

Mikey
06-14-2005, 04:09 AM
Hi Bruce, I can see that you and Zorn get on well together.

What size canvas is this Bruce? The eyes are a problem for you here.

Mikey

laketrees
06-14-2005, 07:43 AM
Hi Bruce...you have the features in the right places..... I agree with Mikey...the left eye seems to be longer than the original.......good proportion overall.....nice loose work on the arm and hand....
cheers kim

A Few Pigments
06-14-2005, 02:25 PM
Hi Kim, thank you for your help. Thank you for the complements regarding the overall proportion and the loose work on the arm and hand. Iím not happy with the hand myself, but Iím still learning how to paint people and hands and feet, as Iím sure you know, are worlds unto themselves.


Hi Mikey, thank you for your help. The site where I found this painting doesnít list the size of the original painting, so I donít know what the size of the original is. My copy is on a 12 x 16 inch canvas, which I arrived at by multiplying out a workable size from the size of the digital image of the painting. I used my paint software to find out the size of the digital image

The eyes are just blocked in sort of as I try to work out the placement of the features. The problem is that part of her face from the bottom of her eyes to her chin. It looks much longer in the original than it does in mine. Right now, the face I painted looks much too round.

I donít see anyway to make her face as long as it looks in the original without moving the top of her cap closer to the top of the painting than it is in the original. May be I made her body too long? I used a grid and Iím still getting it wrong. May be I need a good figure drawing class.

Mikey
06-14-2005, 04:22 PM
Bruce, this one is more difficult than you might at first suppose. The tilt of the head is a problem from the beginning, but then you have a bone structure which seems to be at odds with her plumpness. Both eyes are too wide height ways, and her right eye to wide horizontally. If it were smaller then you could bring that side of her face in as it is in Zorn's painting. You may notice from my WIPs that I often make these corrections as I go along with a painting.

Zorn's painting wouldn't seem to be very large, but I'd want to be doing this one at 18 x 24 inches. I am amazed at what Cabanel and Millais could do at such small sizes.

Mikey

A Few Pigments
06-14-2005, 07:04 PM
Hi Mikey, many of the old masters did small paintings including Raphael. We don't know how good we have it today.

Mikey
06-15-2005, 02:55 AM
Hi Bruce, have you seen the 16 x 12 inch Raphael I'm doing now. It's a good challenge. I think the Alba Madonna must have been a small one.

Mikey

dcorc
06-15-2005, 05:06 AM
Hi Bruce (& Mikey, Kim) - the original is 130 x 81cm
http://www.auktionsverket.se/dbkatalog2/kat_visabild.asp?at=K&d=2005-05-26&anr=2141&ma=E505

Dave

laketrees
06-15-2005, 06:09 AM
Hi Bruce..........quite a difference in size........(thanks Dave)....I think her face may look longer when you get the shadows in...I did notice the suggestion of double chin in the original............I think those masters must have had glasses as thick as coke bottles to paint portraits...I was really shocked when I saw the Mona Lisa...in Paris.....I thought it would be much larger IRL......I think you and Mikey have got heaps of patience and obviously good eyesight...... :evil: :D
cheers kim

Mikey
06-15-2005, 07:08 AM
Thanks Dave, so that would be about life size.

Mikey

A Few Pigments
06-15-2005, 04:58 PM
Hi Kim, people have told me over the years I have the patiences of a saint, the talent of a da Vinci and the eyesight of an eagle. I think that makes me a good guy who paints on a prayer and a wingÖor something like that. Or may be it just makes me feel itís impossible for me to live up to peoples expectations. Only time will tell. In the mean time where did I leave my colouring book.


Hi Dave, thanks for the link. This is a much bigger image than the one I found so I think Iíll start working from this one. Now that I can see a larger reproduction I can see more corrections I should make.


Hi Mikey, I did see your Raphael and jolly good it is too.

Mikey
06-15-2005, 05:09 PM
Hi Bruce, I like large files, especially when the head is a small part of the painting like this one.

Now I've found out my Madonna is too small. I bought a new size 2 brush especially. Talk about being pushed to my limits.

Mikey

A Few Pigments
06-15-2005, 05:36 PM
Mikey, I use a 0 and 00 size brushes on almost all the paintings I do. I might start with a size 6 or 4, but for things like eyes, or lips and small details I need small brushes. On The Storm most of it is done with 00 to 1 size brushes.

Mikey
06-15-2005, 05:59 PM
Mikey, I use a 0 and 00 size brushes on almost all the paintings I do. I might start with a size 6 or 4, but for things like eyes, or lips and small details I need small brushes. On The Storm most of it is done with 00 to 1 size brushes.

Hey Bruce, how big is The Storm? It could take another 30 years with brushes like that.:D I bet Holman Hunt used brushes like that. I use a size 16 bright, plus 10 and 14 filberts as favourites, and now I've got a size 6 for smaller stuff. I'd use the corner of a brightbrush, but all the corners are worn off.

Mikey

A Few Pigments
06-15-2005, 06:08 PM
Mikey The Storm i'm doing is 14 1/2 x by 26 3/4 inches.

laketrees
06-16-2005, 09:27 AM
Hey guys...lol....you two are so funny.........I think you both must have magnifying glasses stashed with your art philosophy books...one minute you're expounding deeply on the meaning of "ART" and then your discussing the size of your brushes.....too ...too funny.......enjoying the conversation........most informative....I'll just go and look for a colouring book too ....Bruce ....and start practising with some of those brushes you and Mikey have mentioned.....
cheers kim

dcorc
06-16-2005, 09:56 AM
I make a point now of not doing any of my copy-studies less than half-size - and preferably between 3/4 and full-size - one's actually giving oneself a harder job than the original artist, otherwise!

I note in this one, Bruce, you're fighting the canvas texture in trying to get accurate placement of detail, particularly in the face, as the grain is proportionately much larger than it would be in the original.

Dave

Mikey
06-16-2005, 10:05 AM
Rightly so Dave, as if we didn't have enough problems putting ourselves up against the greats.

Mikey

A Few Pigments
06-16-2005, 03:56 PM
Mikey I donít mind being up against the greats. Mary Cassatt was a stunner. But seriously, anything they can do we can do better. We have to believe in ourselves more than they believed in themselves. Besides, we have much nicer art stores.


Hi Dave, I think your idea of not working less than half size is a good one. The Virgin of the Rocks is nine feet high, so half size is four and a half feet. Iím just doing the head of the Virgin from the second Virgin of the Rocks for that reason.


Hi Kim, colouring books and paint by numbers have made me the artist I am today. Explains a lot doesnít itÖlolololol

Spyderbabe
06-17-2005, 11:01 AM
Hi Bruce - I think she's looking very good.... maybe the digial but for what it's worth - your gal is a bit ruddier and the whites of her eyes brighter white than the original...
Kathleen

A Few Pigments
06-17-2005, 07:09 PM
Hi Kathleen, nice to see you. The parts of the face look strange now because I just have them sort of blocked in for now. Mikeyís right about me having to fight the texture of the canvas since Iím working this small, but I need to learn a lot more about the face too. Itís a balancing act to keep her face from looking too ruddy. Iíve been wondering why Zorn gave her such reddish cheeks. If I had painted her I would have made her cheeks less red and I would have blended the colour transitions instead of leaving then so rough. Thank you for your help and take care.

Spyderbabe
06-17-2005, 08:31 PM
Iíve been wondering why Zorn gave her such reddish cheeks.

well..... I think her weight, (maybe some blood pressures issues? ) combined with the exertion of her work made her cheeks ruddy. If she was a washer woman they might be chapped from the combination of the hot water and steam and the cold of the outdoors.

A Few Pigments
06-18-2005, 02:40 AM
Kathleen youíre right. You know Iím always saying try to become one with the subject and I never thought about the things you mentioned. I think because this painting looks so cool, almost antiseptic. Iím going to try to imagine her working in the heat and humidity and noise and confusion of a kitchen of the early 1900ís and paint her face again. Thank you for pointing those things out to me. :)

A Few Pigments
06-25-2005, 12:00 PM
She either has very high cheekbones or a very low chin. Iím not sure which. It could even be both I suppose. I think her face looks a little better now. I think I should only have to work on it one more time and it will be done.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jun-2005/42249-1919_Zorn_A_Kitchen_Maid_oil_500_002.jpg

Mikey
06-25-2005, 12:54 PM
Hi Bruce, I think you've done very well considering the size. If you were able to look at that face close up you might find the blends have been achieved with close colour mixes of broken paint rather than mashing two colours together. That can be important because the midpoint of that turn is often where you find the local colour. Anyhow that's all a bit tricky to do at this size.

Mikey

laketrees
06-26-2005, 02:55 AM
Hi Bruce...the eyes look good now...and you have really captured the expression well..and the hint of double chin..and ruddy cheeks.....great job..I like this a lot!!
cheers kim

A Few Pigments
06-26-2005, 05:37 AM
Hi Kim, and thank you. That eye on the left seems abstracted, I mean in the original painting. I guess that comes under the heading of artistic license. I think it was the only way Zorn had to make her expression exactly the way he wanted it to look. Iíve noticed a lot of artists seem to leave out eyelashes. I wonder why. Anyway, I like painting them in because I think people look funny without them. Art is strange sometimes.


Thank you Mikey. Itís true about the optical colour mixing on her face, and youíre right it would be very difficult to do on this scale. I think this will be the last time I try to paint a face this small. I feel like Iím trying to do a portrait for a dollhouse.

Anita Murphy
06-26-2005, 07:10 AM
Think this is fabulous! So good to see a real woman and not a stick insect!

A Few Pigments
06-26-2005, 04:12 PM
Thatís true Anita, sheís no Twiggy http://www.twiggylawson.co.uk/

Sheís more like Charlie Dimmock http://www.bbc.co.uk/gardening/tv_and_radio/presenterbiogs_d.shtml#charlie_dimmock

Anita Murphy
06-27-2005, 10:23 AM
Charlie Dimmock is brilliant!!! Did you ever see the picture of her portrayed as The Birth of Venus - Amazing picture!

A Few Pigments
06-27-2005, 10:21 PM
Hi Anita, Iíve never seen the picture of Charlie youíre referring to. I have to admit Iíve always thought of Charlie more as Diana than as Venus. I think sheíd make a perfect model for this painting of Diana by Titian.

1562, Titian, Death of Actaeon, Oil on canvas, 179 x 189 cm.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Jun-2005/42249-1562_Titian_Death_of_Actaeon_Oil_500.jpg

Do you have a link to her as Venus?

Anita Murphy
06-28-2005, 08:29 AM
I googled her Venus picture but though there are many mentions I couldn't find an image.
It was printed in the Radio Times magazine - the BBC publication of TV listings.


Edit - I found it - this is the front page so not the whole picture

Charlie as Venus (http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Satellite/1311/rt_cover.jpg)

Spyderbabe
06-28-2005, 09:53 AM
Love that magazine cover! Charlie is terrific - did you see her on the Kumar's show?

Well anyway the kitchen maid is looking great!

A Few Pigments
06-28-2005, 10:30 AM
Hi Spyderbabe, I taped the Kumarís when she was on that show and I also taped her on another show but I donít remember the presenters name.


Anita, thank you for finding this. Would you believe I did have this? I must have downloaded it when I was collecting picís on Ground Force.

A Few Pigments
07-17-2005, 11:53 PM
This is my progress to date. Iím about ready to leave WC. Iíve been painting for a total of two and a half years now and as a member of WC for one year and two and a half months and my work is no better now then when I started. Thereís no point in carrying on with something Iíll never be any good at. Iím not an artist. I donít know what art is anymore now then I did when I started painting and I doubt I ever will. I have some commitments here I have to fulfill and then that will be it. Thank you to everyone whoís tried to help me along the way.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Jul-2005/42249-1919_Zorn_A_Kitchen_Maid_oil_500_003.jpg

dcorc
07-18-2005, 12:12 AM
Wow, Bruce :crying: - I think Zorn is very tricky, the face here particularly so, and you gave yourself a very difficult task doing a small copy of what we subsequently discovered is quite a large original.

I think the quote you have in your own sig line is very appropriate:
Paint for Fun! I don't care whether it succeeds or not. Let success come along afterwards.

The question is, do you find the process fun, or is has it become too frustrating because paintings don't turn out the way you want? (I've got plenty of those!)

Dave

artbabe21
07-18-2005, 12:52 AM
BRUCE!!!!!! Don't you dare leave WC, I will hunt you down & drag you back. Do you know what an inspiration you have been to me? Go back & LOOK at your Monet painting!!!!!!!! IT's outstanding!.......I am so proud call you my new friend having worked on the MOM & think so much of you. :)

We all get in a slump now & then.....Monet burned piles of paintings (don't you dare) We ARE our own worst enemies! Take a break from it if you are disheartened.

WHAT?????????......you're complaining about this remarkable progress shot??????? Get your eyes checked my dear man! :)

Yokovich
07-18-2005, 01:27 AM
gosh Bruce, I know the feeling!! I often wonder why in the blue blazes I carry on
trying to create art that is "good"---most of the time I feel like I have been wasting my time (and not getting anything much else done!) BUT--I also have come to understand that painting feels like two steps forward and one step back ---(and that is still a net gain of one step). Rome wasn't built in a day--and we would miss you if you left. Please reconsider...if not for yourself then for all the folks you help with your insightful posts! I can understand if you think you need a break...we all do from time to time. Just know that we are your pals here and we all know what it is like to feel discouraged. To be expected---but certainly wet canvas would not be right without a few pigments :)

laketrees
07-18-2005, 06:15 AM
Hey Bruce........ :crying: ...please don't leave ....you have been an inspiration....and I don't know of any artists who do not get frustrated.....I 'm sitting here at the moment looking at my b#$#$# turban and wondering whether it's worthwhile spending the money to get it framed....and with b#$#$# pastel dust in my eyes...... :evil: you are so talented and this latest work shows that.......choosing the work you do.....you are taking on challenges that most people would not attempt in a lifetime....and I have to say that is an admirable quality...take a break but don't give up and don't leave....... :(
:wave: ..kim

artbabe21
07-18-2005, 10:48 AM
gosh Bruce, I know the feeling!! I often wonder why in the blue blazes I carry on trying to create art that is "good"---most of the time I feel like I have been wasting my time

Absolutely, there isn't an artist dead/alive who doesn't/hasn't felt this way!!!

and we would miss you if you left.
AND I would hunt you down....be scared, very scared...LOL!! :)

Anita Murphy
07-18-2005, 11:09 AM
Bruce - absolutely you must not leave! People like you are such an inspiration to me. And while you may not see your progress we all do. I think this is a fundamental flaw with most artists - the ability to be our own worst critics. I often feel that I will never be a patch on you or many others who post their work on WC, but I also know that giving up is the easy option and unless I push myself I never will be any better. I find it extremely hard to call myself an artist - you certainly are one. So please please please for those of us for whom this is also an immense daily struggle - stay and keep us company - pretty please, with sugar on?????

Squib
07-18-2005, 03:26 PM
Bruce - don't you dare !!!!! Please come on over to the Creativity Forum and read this thread - Ready to just quit....... (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277582&page=1). It certainly gives an insight into the thoughts of others who feel the same way you do. There is a post by Madster in that thread that is an absolute gem.

Bruce - I think we all feel this way at times. Some of the paintings I've produced lately are fit for the bin, and nothing else. A couple of weeks ago, I worked ALL DAY on a piece, which was so bad, I wiped the whole canvas clean and almost burst into tears. I am having a break at the moment. Mother-in-law is here and she is allergic to just about everything to do with oil paint. So I've put the paints away till she's gone. And you know what ? This break is doing me the world of good. I feel refreshed, am starting to get a bit of enthusiasm back too. I think by the time she's gone I'll be desperate to paint again. Maybe you just need a break - not from WetCanvas, but from painting. Put it all away for a couple of weeks, or switch mediums - maybe just sketch for a while. STOP PUTTING YOURSELF UNDER PRESSURE !!!! It is NOT a race against time. You don't have to be producing great masterpieces by the year 2006 ! (I can see a great improvement in your work though). You have the rest of your life to thoroughly enjoy what you do - and if you learn a little bit more each year...how wonderful. If it takes the next 10 years to produce a good Master copy...how wonderful. YOU ARE GETTING THERE...ONE STEP AT A TIME. And we, all your friends and fellow painters, are here, cheering you on and wishing you well. :clap:

It's great that you feel able to share your thoughts (and your disappointments) with us. We all need to do it more often. And we all need to encourage each other. Ten years to paint the Mona Lisa ? HA - at the rate you're going - you'll do it in five !!!! I call that really good going !!!

Pars
07-18-2005, 07:23 PM
Bruce, I have to add my little bit of cajoling - don't give up and go off! You have been such an inspiration to me and so supportive in the MOMS. Your work is very good, and your thoughtfulness and the extent to which you explore the various issues of the projects is exhaustive, edifying, and spectacular. Yes, all accolades, all justly given (to you).

And as Dave said you've taken on quite a bit with the Zorn. And you did it well.

pretty please, pretty please reconsider and take heart from what the others have said, and said so well!

A Few Pigments
07-18-2005, 09:55 PM
JAQUES. I prithee, pretty youth, let me be better acquainted with thee.
ROSALIND. They say you are a melancholy fellow.
JAQUES. I am so; I do love it better than laughing.
ROSALIND. Those that are in extremity of either are abominable fellows, and betray themselves to every modern censure worse than drunkards.
JAQUES. Why, ítis good to be sad and say nothing.
ROSALIND. Why, then, ítis good to be a post.
JAQUES. I have neither the scholarís melancholy, which is emulation; nor the musicianís, which is fantastical; nor the courtierís, which is proud; nor the soldierís, which is ambitious; nor the lawyerís, which is politic; nor the ladyís, which is nice; nor the loverís, which is all these: but it is a melancholy of mine own, compounded of many simples, extracted from many objects, and indeed the sundry contemplation of my travels, which, by often rumination, wraps me in a most humorous sadness.
ROSALIND. A traveller! By my faith, you have great reason to be sad. I fear you have sold your own lands to see other menís; then, to have seen much and to have nothing, is to have rich eyes and poor hands.
JAQUES. Yes, I have gained my experience.
ROSALIND. And your experience makes you sad: I had rather have a fool to make me merry than experience to make me sad: and to travel for it too!

TOUCHSTONE. ĎThe fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.í

Da Vinci once said something to the effect of "All art students like to paint, but very few have any talent." I know I'm one of those few. But, after reading all of your posts I'm reminded that; "'Tis better to have a few good friends, then all the gold in the world." And besides, I'd have nightmares thinking about Cathleen hunting me down. So, I'll stay.

artbabe21
07-18-2005, 10:44 PM
And besides, I'd have nightmares thinking about Cathleen hunting me down. So, I'll stay.

LOL!!!!!!!!! Hurrah, you talented ARTIST!!! Proud to be in your company & such a pleasure to learn from you. I only hope to produce work such as yours! :)

I'll cancel the posse, then!

Mikey
07-19-2005, 04:44 AM
Thank goodness for that. We can all breathe again now. Self doubt, I find, is one of those things which spurs me on to do better.

Mikey

laketrees
07-19-2005, 04:50 AM
"'Tis better to have a few good friends, then all the gold in the world." And besides, I'd have nightmares thinking about Cathleen hunting me down. So, I'll stay.
Very true Bruce..and so good to hear you're staying.....and much safer too.........I think Cathleen would whip up one heck of a posse......but does that mean we have to give back the horses...whips...and spurs... :(
:wave: ..kim

Pars
07-19-2005, 06:57 AM
Good! Glad! :D

Anita Murphy
07-19-2005, 08:37 AM
Deep sigh of relief! Who else could I talk gardening too when the painting becomes just too much?????? :p

Squib
07-19-2005, 05:02 PM
Welcome Home Bruce !

dcorc
07-19-2005, 05:31 PM
Hooray! Good news - so pleased you're sticking around, Bruce!

Dave