CP Project - Portrait [Archive]

Sue Irish

12-13-2003, 05:35 PM

I haven't gotten very far today ... maybe I will get something more done this evening. There is an awful lot of deep reds in the background areas so I have started with a red madder and deep sap green to begin my black tones. The shading through the scarf does not show on the scan but right now has been started with a pale gray lavender and pale gray beige. The linen is neither gray, blue, nor lavender in the photo of the work ... it's more like a mottling of all.

Plus ... gripe-gripe-gripe ... this is my first working with a Stonehenge paper. I ordered from my usual company but this batch arrived rolled then thrown into a large box. No backing support, not flat packed, and not plastic wrapped against the cardboard container. There are several obvious crease marks that I will easily be able to cut out working size pieces from without losing much paper. But there seems to be a miriade of fine scratches that I keep coming across in the surface. You can see one in the chin shadow and another just above the right corner of the mouth.

At this point I am not sure if I will end up trashing this piece or if I will be able to work the scratches out by the time I develop the colors ... not enough experience in CPs yet to have a guess.

Oh well ... back to work on layers, layers, layers.

Susan

wet

12-13-2003, 06:16 PM

WOW!WOW!WOW!wanda

bmac

12-14-2003, 12:11 AM

Susan,
I know it will not help you on this one, but I recently ordered Stonehenge online and they packaged it so that it was in great condition when I received it. Artpaper.com is the company that I ordered from, in case you or anyone else needs paper.

BTW, the project looks good so far. :)

Beth

kimo

12-14-2003, 08:32 AM

Wow - you sure know how to nail those details! This is looking wonderful so far!

BTW, if I were you I would complain to whomever you bought the paper from. If they want to keep you as a customer, I'm sure they will reimburse you -or- send you a better shipment of paper.

Sue Irish

12-14-2003, 08:39 AM

Good Morning Wanda, If you want to do this gal as your project, as Arlene suggested, I have a real nice large scan I can e-mail you.

Good Morning Beth, THANK YOU! I went over to their site and I will definitely be ordering from them next time. I haven't been able to find black Stonehenge which I want to try and the prices are much better than where I got mine order ... Thank you!

Good Morning Kimo, I just might complain. I am hoping that it is just this one sheet, the one that came into contact with the box. The scratches sort of look like something was drug across the surface ... ? I am lucky though they seem to be working out as I get the layers added as long as I pay close attention to where they are.

It's snowing hard here so I will get a 'snow day' off from work and get to play with her most of the day.

Susan

Elankat

12-14-2003, 12:24 PM

You should call the company. Any company worth it's salt will credit you. I order from Daniel Smith and they ship flat. Once, the box got creased (not their fault) and some of the paper was creased. They credited me, no problems at all.

arlene

12-15-2003, 01:20 AM

agreed about calling the company...you paid good money...if they messed up why should you suffer? (why are we afraid to complain or get what is rightfully ours?)

anyway this is looking great, and yes the lines will work out on subsequent layers. You can sharpen your pencil to a sharp point and fill in that way too

Sue Irish

12-15-2003, 05:16 AM

Here's where I am at on the CP project. There is an odd problem with the work. The original, naturally after all this time, has a fine coating of egg shell cracks in the varnishes. Therefore, the sepia tones of the under coats of oil and the medium beige of the linen canvas show through the painting. She has an impression of deeper coloring than I have achieved as I have copied only the colors not the egg shelling. So even though I have matched color as closely as I can I do not have the same tonal value as the original from which I am working.

At this point I can leave her alone or copy the egg shelling effect (NOT!) or give everything a light coating of medium to dark brown ???

Also ... do you think I can use this to make application to the Master for a fresco apprenticeship ... maybe I would be lucky enough, show enough technical skills, that he would let me sweep the studio or slop the turp buckets. Grin! Now wouldn't that be wild!

Susan

Sue Irish

12-15-2003, 05:17 AM

Here's my color chart.

Susan

wet

12-15-2003, 10:19 AM

Send me a copy? PANIC!! Thanks so much Sue for your generous offer but I feel a little to wet he he behind the ears to jump in on this one. Thought I' watch and learn this time. I think you did a marvalous job on her. It evokes the same mood as the original. I'm not sure about the brown haven't done enough portraits to know. Beautiful!!!:D wanda

arlene

12-15-2003, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by wet
Send me a copy? PANIC!! Thanks so much Sue for your generous offer but I feel a little to wet he he behind the ears to jump in on this one. Thought I' watch and learn this time. I think you did a marvalous job on her. It evokes the same mood as the original. I'm not sure about the brown haven't done enough portraits to know. Beautiful!!!:D wanda

YOU are NOT wet behind the ears...the only way you learn is by stretching yourself!

wet

12-15-2003, 01:22 PM

You're absolutlly right !! I really need to do that thanks for the kick in the pants. wanda

Meisie

12-15-2003, 02:49 PM

Beautiful job Sue!
Meisie

chatfieldstudios

12-15-2003, 08:10 PM

Sue, This is wonderful and I can't believe how fast you work! After I saw your selection, I also selected a portrait...and I noticed the cracks in the original source. Don't think I will be recreating the cracks either:D

Thanks for sharing your work on this....it helped give me some direction...

frida

12-15-2003, 09:06 PM

Gorgeous portrait, Sue! :clap:

I find your colour chart intriguing. It seems there's a method to it...

Sue Irish

12-16-2003, 04:35 AM

Hi Frida,

The top horizontal lines were my skin tone undercoats, the bottom group was my linen drape undercoat. The vertical bars are the colors I added for over layers and cross hatch into their undercoats ... that other group to the right was my white and blacks. The ones that make the right angle are used in both sections.

That way I could make the mess on the color chart and I would have scratched a color out if it didn't work before I went to work on her.

Susan

Sue Irish

12-16-2003, 05:37 AM

Spent the evening tweaking and am going to quit while I am somewhat ahead.

Susan

Elankat

12-16-2003, 10:59 AM

Sue, I think this looks great. You did a wonderful job with the drawing and copy. You got the same expression and soft look.

I know you said that the cracks affect the color, but I think the shadow folds read too purple. Looking at the shadows under the neck, they match the original, but the lower ones are very purple. You may want to consider graying them down. I think the white drape could also use more shadow. Squint and look at the side by side images and you'll see why I say that. :)

Anyhow, phenomenal job on this! You set a high standard for everyone else. :D

Sue Irish

12-16-2003, 11:33 AM

LeAnne,

YES! You are very right. It SOOOO helps to have another artist look. By last night I was just a touch crossed eyed ... which is absolutely no excuse.

I agree, hit the shadows to tone the purples and maybe even another touch under the chin in the linen.

Susan

gemmag

12-16-2003, 12:15 PM

Hi Sue,

Wow,,, this is really coming along great. I do however, have something to add to what LeAnne said. The sharp line down he nose goes to far down into the ball of her nose, maybe if you just toned down that sharpness at the end of the nose a little would help it too. Otherwise, great likeness, and a beautiful job!!!

Gemma

Sue Irish

12-16-2003, 01:22 PM

See that ... will get it! Thanks Gemma.

Susan

frida

12-16-2003, 01:40 PM

Thanks for explaining your colour chart! :)

arlene

12-16-2003, 02:12 PM

hi sue...masterful so far...

notice that her face in the photo has less jumping in terms of values, that one seems to meld a bit into the others. this can be seen clearly on the gray scale, as well as the need for more shadowing especially in her veil

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Dec-2003/240-1lady11.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Dec-2003/240-1lady71.jpg

anotherthing to notice is that there is alot less chroma in the original...now whether that's because of how it was painted then, or just because of age I don't know.

The face also has alot more browns in it. again compare the two side by side.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Dec-2003/240-1lady1.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Dec-2003/240-1lady7.jpg

Sue Irish

12-16-2003, 02:31 PM

OK! So lots more toning-scrubbing-blending-toning-toning-blending-cussing-toning ....

I really am having difficulty between what I see and what I see. If the piece is put over on the couch mine is far to bright, ragged, and pink orange. But if I have it in my lap then I am looking 'around' the egg shell cracking' and seeing color.

I think in this case I will go with what the final impression of color is .... brown.

Susan

arlene

12-16-2003, 03:04 PM

sue look at it in daylight...since that's the truest color. of course i'm looking on the screen and what you have might be different, but in bright indirect sunlight, you'll get a better reading...

personally i have an east facing window behind me...in late morning i'll put my work at a right angle to the window and decide that way.

Sue Irish

12-16-2003, 03:10 PM

Here's a good example of what is confusing me ... not that it isn't very easy to confuse me (grin). Here's Michaelangelo's Libica before they washed the walls and after they washed the walls of the Sistine Chapel ....

Susan

Sue Irish

12-16-2003, 03:16 PM

#$**(!$% - @%++@ Arlene ....

Wet Canvas was suppose to be a place where I could escape, relax, veg out, become a wet noodle! Not a place that makes me think, explore new concepts, re-evaluate my technical approaches, study my old art text books that were covered in three inches of dust, and then interact on a higher level with other artists!

GRINGRIN GRIN

Humbly, Susan

Meisie

12-16-2003, 03:24 PM

chuckle
I was going to suggest that yours is a restored version.
'Great minds think alike.............. ' :D
Meisie

Sue Irish

12-17-2003, 06:10 AM

I admit defeat.

I simply do not have enough experience, control, or skill to yet be able to guide a colored pencil work to where I want it to go.

Over worked, the colors have broken down into clumps of unrelated mess. I do not have enough control to deal with the original scratches in the paper which are now emphasised from too much color application. I am not going to be able to evenly tone the skin nor remove-destroy-erase the original undercoats of red madder. I am not able to balance out the original sculpturing to the cheek, nose, and chin line. I do not have the experience to blend these colors into an even effect. I simply do not have the skill needed to 'change horses in the middle of the stream'. So having started by looking at colors and using the red and oranges as my guide I now can not undo that work into a neat brown sepia painting.

So, unless we are going to paint this mess with black green or cut it into pieces and make a new collage from the scraps this is trash.

Susan

Sue Irish

12-17-2003, 06:18 AM

Close up of the mess.

Susan

arlene

12-17-2003, 10:30 AM

you have no more tooth to the paper?

arlene

12-17-2003, 10:31 AM

oh and for the record, most folks would be thrilled to have a mess like that!

think about it. also consider the blotches as more painterly ;)

Elankat

12-17-2003, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by Sue Irish
I admit defeat.

I simply do not have enough experience, control, or skill to yet be able to guide a colored pencil work to where I want it to go.

Sue! Stop being so hard on yourself. This is not supposed to be an easy project! :)

Reproducing the look of a different medium in colored pencil is hard. Reproducing the work of a master is hard. The two together is an enormous challenge.

I think you have done and incredible job and should stop beating yourself about the head, throat, and shoulders. ;) :D The challenges make this a great learning situation...one that can be tried again and again. There's a reason why I'm planning on doing this portion of the project several times.

Just a note on the Libyan Sibyl, the cracks are still present in the piece. Luckily, not as many, since they are plaster cracks and not the eggshelling that you see with oils. What they cleaned was hundreds of years of candle soot and dirt from it. But, I definitely know what you are getting at. So many images that show works in varying conditions. When working from a photo of a very old piece of art (which may not be in the best condition), we have to deal with the inherent problems that come with it.

Anyhow, I think you did great. :)

wet

12-17-2003, 10:46 AM

:crying: She's is NOT trash!! I agree with arlene alot of people would be patting themselves on the back if they had done this! You've just been nose to nose with her for too long and are developing a love hate relationship. Put her away for 3 or 4 days and maybe you can look at her with a renewed respect when you get her back out. I know it's frustrating but it was a learning exercise right?? Hang in there!!:D wanda

frida

12-17-2003, 11:36 AM

I absolutely agree with the latest comments. You are amazingly talented, and well... maybe your portrait is not 100% perfect to hang in a museum 50 years from now. LOL...!

You said it yourself: "I simply do not have enough experience, control, or skill to yet be able to guide a colored pencil work to where I want it to go." And that's OK!

You are learning at a speed and level that many of us simply envy. Relax a bit, keep on working, learning, teaching us, and enjoy the process!!! :)

Sue Irish

12-17-2003, 02:15 PM

There is some tooth but it seems very patchy. I don't have the control to determine before the pencil hits the paper to know where I can add color and where it won't take. Having worked the scratches, then worked the red madder in the skin tones to tone the red down the skin area goes from taking no color to grasping everything. She has developed a quite serious skin ailment or deseaise. Heat Blotches - small poc - Do you know what they used to call "Pregnancy Mask", well she's got it!

If you look across the surface of the paper ... hold it edge ways to the eye ... there is a distinct splattering of very shiny areas with a mesh of dull netting around them. And reducing the scan of the image greatly improves what you are seeing to what I am seeing. The compression to a small jpg is compressing the color tones ... melting the blitches together a bit.

I tried a very light coat of workable spray in case it might give me a newer surface ... something above the over worked areas ... one which I might be able to add color to try and subdue the splotches but this does not seem to be doing any good.

Anyway, I have been an artist long enough to know when I got beat, fair and square. This one has beaten me!

;)

Susan

Sue Irish

12-17-2003, 02:18 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sue Irish
[B] ... melting the blitches together a bit.

Now that really was a Freudian slip ... I meant blotches ... really I did.

Susan

Meisie

12-17-2003, 02:47 PM

I think you did a terrific job, and learnt a lot to boot!
Well done!
Looking forward to seeing your next piece (project related or not)
Meisie

Sue Irish

12-18-2003, 07:09 AM

Do Over!

First, I apologize for having 'lost it' yesterday! I apologize for dumping all 'that' here on the forum. It was inappropriate to do so here.

I spent much of yesterday's free time reading the forum, especially the posts on portraits, "5-Color Portrait WIP" by Frida and "Mabel and Me" by Ann. Have decided to do a do-over.

This start is on fawn Stonehenge.
1. I know the paper is pristine, no scratches.
2. Because the paper is colored I will pay more attention to evenly coating each area with color. I will need to use 'whites' for the face and linen instead of depending on the paper's color. Maybe I can avoid the think-thin problem that I ran into with the last stages of my first try.

I have reduced the size of my sketch from 8 1/5" to 6" wide.
1. It reduces the visual amount of 'sculpturing' that I got caught in the first time.
2. It concentrates the shadowing and toning so I can work on a more even blending right from the start.

I have thrown away all my original copies that were in full color.
1. I will work from the gray scaled image until I have a fairly strong shaping, limiting my colors to black, sepia, med. brown, light beige, and eventually the 'white' tone.
2. I won't touch the madder red pencil ... no madder what!

I know I haven't touched the background yet ... my son has once again disappeared with my drafting tape. So until I track him down that area will need to wait.

Thank you, Susan

Elankat

12-18-2003, 10:09 AM

Sue, glad to see that you are giving this another try!

Sue Irish

12-18-2003, 10:28 AM

Thanks, LeAnne!

Susan

graphicdiva

12-18-2003, 01:06 PM

WOW Susan I can't believe you are starting over!:eek:
I kept meaning to post before when I saw you started this thread..me bad!
I think the first one was awesome, and i love the purples you use in your work. I can't wait to see the second, good for you for trying again:D

happy holidays to you,
Christina

arlene

12-18-2003, 02:07 PM

well i can see you've already learned from the last one!

TeAnne

12-18-2003, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by arlene
oh and for the record, most folks would be thrilled to have a mess like that!

think about it. also consider the blotches as more painterly ;)

Agreed, *putting up hand* god girl, you get points just for persistance. :) I hope you didn't put the other one in the bin. It's good to keep your failures too. mumble, bi*ch groan, to self. That was no failure. Keep up the good work. You're an artist's artist.

Sue Irish

12-18-2003, 02:44 PM

Yes ... That last one probably taught me more than the four before it! Every step of the way!

No ... it is not in the circular file. However it has been neatly stuffed under a pile of other papers for the time being where I can't see it!

Thank you all for your patience!

Susan

frida

12-18-2003, 03:18 PM

I sure admire your determination Sue! And this is beautiful again!!! :clap:

chatfieldstudios

12-18-2003, 03:24 PM

Sue, I too, admire your tenacity and the ability to learn and move on. I thought the last one was wonderful, but I like the eyes better in this one for some reason. I'll have to look more closely and see why. I have yet to start my old master's portrait so I am watching your progress and learning.

Meisie

12-18-2003, 05:27 PM

I have no problem with your 'dump'
But it is so inspiring to see you start again. This is very exciting to follow and I'll be in the cheering crowd! ;)
Meisie

Sue Irish

12-21-2003, 04:54 AM

Do Over Update and still working ....
Susan

Sue Irish

12-21-2003, 04:55 AM

Comparison ....
Susan

GenineAnn

12-21-2003, 08:42 AM

Sue,

I admire your ability to stick with a piece as well as your skill level in applying color. You are sooo talented! She is coming along so wonderfully.

I have a piece that I very much wanted to paint (a turtle). It didn't turn out very good at all...I was so disappointed so I trashed it. However, you have inspired me to start over & improve it....something I would never attempt in the past.

Usually my frustration level would get the best of me & I won't make another attempt on something that I view as a failure. I think all of us suffer this to some degree at one time or another. You have shown us how to turn the tables.

Can't wait for the next update.

GenineAnn

12-21-2003, 08:44 AM

Oh, and for the record, Arlene is correct...I would've been thrilled with your earlier attempt!

Sue Irish

12-21-2003, 09:09 AM

HI Genine, Thank You!

Just for the record this second one has been much easier than the first. Maybe because I already had a beginning of an understanding of the subject and an idea of how the process would go and what pot holes in the road to try and not fall in this time. Now, that's just my experience so far with this do-over.

Plus ... GRIN ... I had everyones Road Signs that they had posted with the first go around to keep me on path ... GRIN. I have been very surprised that I haven't 'fought with her' like I did with the first, maybe that is what you will discover when you do-over the project you were mentioning.

Love to see it !!! Have you posted it here on the forum ???

Again, thank you! Susan

Lahree

12-21-2003, 09:13 AM

You are doing such a fabulous job! Your first drawing was beautiful! Not an exact copy of the artist, but that does not mean that it was not a gorgeous piece of work. It had its own merit as a masterfully rendered work. This new one is certainly just as beautiful, but you have figured out how to get the look you are after. Your patience has paid off big time. And if you think your "rant" in the thread over your artwork was "inappropriate" then throw me in Wetcanvas Jail! LOL. You should have seen the hissy fit I threw over a project in the Fantasy thread over my Eight of Swords Cards. Sheesh. Just ask LeAnne! (Forget it, don't ask LeAnne, she might post it and then I'll will re-start the time on my humiliation).

The work I entered into the CPSA show last year I re-did 5 times! I was not completely done--probably about 1/2 done to a 1/4 each time, but I know about starting over! My piece got juried into the show, so I must have learned something along the way, and you will too!

Good luck on your journey. You are extremely talented!!

GenineAnn

12-21-2003, 09:18 AM

Hi Sue,

Yes, the road signs are very helpful I think. I myself may need a detailed map;) I have not posted the original turtle and quite frankly...I would be a little embarrassed to do so...it's that bad.

However, I promise to make another attempt on him, to not let my frustration get the best of me & I will post it here for all to see. Who knows...maybe I'll post both pics so you can see if I've improved.

Like you, maybe I will be more familiar with him the second time around. I usually do portraits (of people) so animals (espeically turtles as I have never done one) are difficult for me.

Thanks for your encouragement!

Sue Irish

12-21-2003, 09:25 AM

"Forget it, don't ask LeAnne, she might post it and then I'll will re-start the time on my humiliation"

Whoa! That is exactly how I feel right now on this forum ... don't know if I should hang my head and just stay absolutely quiet ... ? ... act as if I never really did it ... ? ... or just what ... one discussion and what some referred to as another round plus one inappropriate pout ... no doing so good yet ...

But I really have 'learned a lot" with this project and this forum and not just about CPs.

Susan

Elankat

12-21-2003, 10:34 AM

There is no failure. Only learning opportunities. :)

And no, I'm not just saying that to sound falsely optimistic. Every piece of art that you struggle through or view as a "failure" gives you the opportunity to learn what NOT to do. Once you know doesn't work, you have a better idea of what does work.

I did my first commission THREE times. It took me almost 4 months to get it right. In the end, it didn't earn me money. It cost me money. And it's probably already paid for itself because I learned so many things. :)

I have two portraits of my son from the exact same photo ref. I don't view either of them as unsuccessful. However, I wanted to revisit the same piece to see how I approached it when I had 8 months more experience under my belt. I'll probably do it a third time soon. There is no shame in doing something again to make it better.

Oh, and Ms. Lahree's tantrum was quite funny. Now, I don't know if any of you have seen her 8 of Swords card, but it is absolutely GORGEOUS. She had a hissy and talked about trashing it because she thought her swords were crooked. :rolleyes: I slapped her momma a few times and she got over that idea. :D

GenineAnn

12-21-2003, 11:37 AM

Lahree,

Where is your post of the Eight of Swords? I would love to see it if I could. I tried to look it up in the Fantasy Sci/Fi forum but had no luck. I wasn't sure if by "Fantasy thread" that you meant "Fantasy forum". I still get lost in here sometimes.

Thanks

Elankat

12-21-2003, 12:43 PM

It's in the project subforum of the Fantasy forum. It's part of the Tarot project. I think she also posted a copy of it in the CP forum.

Tarot project: Swords (http://www.wetcanvas.com//Community/Projects/browse_details.php?proj_id=406)

Nancy Anthony

12-21-2003, 01:16 PM

What can I say? I agree with everyone else...I love them all!
:clap: :clap: :clap:

arlene

12-21-2003, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by GenineAnn
Sue,

I admire your ability to stick with a piece as well as your skill level in applying color. You are sooo talented! She is coming along so wonderfully.

I have a piece that I very much wanted to paint (a turtle). It didn't turn out very good at all...I was so disappointed so I trashed it. However, you have inspired me to start over & improve it....something I would never attempt in the past.

Usually my frustration level would get the best of me & I won't make another attempt on something that I view as a failure. I think all of us suffer this to some degree at one time or another. You have shown us how to turn the tables.

Can't wait for the next update.

Genine why don't you try the project. its' a great learning experience.

arlene

12-21-2003, 02:49 PM

sue, this is definitely coming along very nicely. Another thing that's making this one work better, is you're thinking shadow and light and not linear. it shows.

Sue Irish

12-21-2003, 04:34 PM

Thank you Arlene!

Susan

GenineAnn

12-21-2003, 07:24 PM

Arlene,

Thanks for the suggestion! I may very well do that. I'm workin on a fantasy portrait of my young cousin right now & I'd like to give my turtle another try before I get any more on my plate. I'm a slow worker.

Also, I was just thinking that maybe I should start at the beginning of the projects i.e., the egg & continue from there. I'm not sure my skill level is where it needs to be to complete the masters of old project. Then again, if I'm feelin brave I may throw caution to the wind and give it a go.

bearded bob

12-22-2003, 05:59 AM

Just wanted to say I admire not only your work but your attitude Sue. CP is such a labour intensive medium that it takes real guts to scrap work, I find. Its OK for loose watercolourists who have only spent a couple of hours on a piece - I know one selling artist who churns out four, simultaneously, every day! - but when you have spent a long time on something it takes a real wrench to say "No, its wrong, scrap it". Not that I saw anything wrong with your first effort, but I do agree that the second is better. It is a very good approach to remember that it is just a bit of paper with some pigment on it, total value a few cents. If you scrap it, that is all you have lost. Your talent is undiminished, and what have you gained from the experience?

Jazz

12-23-2003, 04:24 AM

Hey there Susan:) ,

I congratulate you on your choice of subject and I further dock my cap at you for having the determination to crack this project to your own high standards:) .

I too feel that your original was excellent but I can also see what has improved in your second piece. Even more so when you provided us with a comparison of the reference then your first and finally your second, I can see quite a marked improvement. Although, as has been said I would have been extremely proud of myself if I had achieved your first piece nevermind the second one:eek: !!!

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I admire your tenacity and respect greatly your obvious talent. I am very much looking forward to seeing many more threads from you in the months too come, I am such a fan of your work:) . Keep going with this project you are most certainly now on the absolutely right track with it, it is beautiful!

Big Hugs coming your way,

ALI

P.S. please don't feel embarassed by expressing how you felt, I think the majority of us have done so at some point in this forum. I know I had a ghastly temper tantrum early on in my progress on my first cp piece and totally fell to pieces but I got over it and no one hated me for it, so dont worry that is what we are here for among other things.

Sue Irish

01-06-2004, 07:55 AM

Redo Middle Stage and Color Chart

Worked to establish both the highlights [palest values] and the darkest area [deepest values}. Most of this was with the umbers and gray umber pencils. The cream - sienna tones are from the color of the paper, Fawn Stonehenge. The face has some lavendar tones added for blush, however the face became much to orange as compared to the original. Lavendar was also used in the middle gray tones of the drape to start to move these areas into a blue gray tone.

Susan

Sue Irish

01-06-2004, 07:56 AM

Finished Stage and Original Art
[Image: redo1.jpg]

Pale blue, medium blue, and pale french gray have been added to everything except the very darkest tones around the mouth, eye lids, hair, and the drape folds under the chin. In the face it is moving the peach-orange skin tones into a softer brown look. For the head drape it is moving the coloring into the gray area and has diminished some of the Fawn tone from the paper. Using these very pale values over the established toning in both the face and drape has blended the colors much better for me than the blender stick was doing in the previous work. This has also moved the highlights to the face into a slightly darker value which leaves the drape highlights as the palest to the work.

In comparision the finished project is too far into the yellows and orange range on the color wheel. I believe this is caused for two reasons. First is a combination of the transparency of colored pencils and my choice of Fawn colored paper. The Fawn paper has dominated throughout toning everything into the sienna range. Even the blue and gray pencil areas are going slightly into shades of green because of this combination. If I were to redo a third time I would still chose a colored paper but use a gray paper instead of a cream or fawn paper.

Second is my chose to not use any pencils in the rose madder {red-purple-brown] range. As I was unable to control this color range in the first working with this project it was removed from my palette. I believe that even were I to use this range now in the second work I would still have the problem with the Fawn paper and the transparency. So most likely a layering of rose madder, although this is the color toning that I see I need, would move the facial colors back into a deeper orange not into a rose gray.

It seems to me that the Master of Flemelle started with a white canvas, then used a rose madder and umber sepia toning, then added his whites and skin tones. I started with a Fawn canvas, then used a neutral umber sepia, then added my whites and skin toning. His has a dominate undertoning of rose gray where mine has a dominate undertoning of fawn sienna. So I don't believe that additional layers of coloring will swing this into the rose tones.

Susan

Sue Irish

01-06-2004, 07:59 AM

Gray Scale Comparision

The entire finished work is still too pale in toning ... but at least it is consistently so throughout the piece.

Susan

Sue Irish

01-06-2004, 08:03 AM

History Lesson

I did not know that we were to include an art history lesson with this project but here is what little I could find on the Master of Flemelle.

The image on the left is "Merode Altarpiece", circa 1425, oil on wood, and currently is hung in The Cloisters, Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, USA, and is associated with Robert Campin. The image on the left is a second image, note the difference in tonal quality from my reference image of "A Portrait of a Woman" and is associated with The Master of Flemalle. It seems clear to me that the two women depicted in these paintings are the same This was a common practice during this time period, to reuse portraits, because of the panoramic scenes using multiple figures through their works.

And I quote from Painting of Europe. XIII-XX centuries. Encyclopedic Dictionary. Moscow. Iskusstvo. 1999.

"Master of Flémalle Netherlandish painter named after three paintings in the Städelsches Kunstinstitut in Frankfurt that were wrongly supposed to have come from Flémalle, near Liege. There is a strong consensus of scholarly opinion that he is to be identified with Robert Campin (active 1406-44), who was the leading painter of his day in Tournai but none of whose documented pictures survive. The identification depends on the similarity between the Master of Flémalle's paintings and those of Jacques Daret and Rogier van der Weyden, for Daret was Campin's pupil and Rogier almost certainly was. The hypothesis that the Master of Flémalle's paintings are early works by Rogier now has few adherents.

While there is still doubt about the Master of Flémalle's identity, there is no argument about his achievement, for he made a radical break with the elegant International Gothic style and ranks with van Eyck as one of the founders of the Netherlandish school of painting. None of the paintings given to him is dated -- with the exception of the wings of the Werl altarpiece of 1438 in the Prado, a doubtful attribution -- but it seems likely that his earliest works antedate any surviving picture by van Eyck. The earliest of all is generally thought to be The Entombment (Courtauld Institute, London) of about 1410/20. This still has the decorative gold background of medieval tradition, but the influence of Claus Sluter is clear in the sculptural solidity and dramatic force of the figures. The most famous work associated with the Master of Flémalle is the Mérode Altarpiece (Metropolitan Museum, New York), and he is indeed sometimes referred to as the Master of Mérode. However, the attribution of this painting has also been questioned. Among the other works generally accepted as his are The Marriage of the Virgin (Prado, Madrid), The Nativity (Musee des Beaux-Arts, Dijon), and The Virgin and Child before a Firescreen (National Gallery, London), which shows the homely detail and down-to-earth naturalism associated with the artist (the firescreen behind the Virgin's head forms a substitute for a halo). The National Gallery also has three portraits associated with the Master of Flémalle. In spite of the many problems that still surround him, he emerges as a very powerful and important artistic personality.

Robert Campin, 1378–1444, Flemish painter who with the van Eycks ranks as a founder of the Netherlandish school. This artist has been identified as the Master of FlEmalle on the basis of three panels in Frankfurt-am-Main said to have come from the abbey of FlEmalle near LiEge. Campin was active in Tournai, having become a citizen of that city in 1410 and the dean of the painters' guild in 1423. To him have been attributed the Merode Altarpiece in the Cloisters, New York City, a Nativity in Dijon, the Annunciation and Marriage of the Virgin in Madrid, the Madonna of Humility in London, and a number of other panels in various collections. His works are characterized by a robust and highly developed realism and concern for the details of daily life, which constituted an important stage in the stylistic progression leading to the art of Jan van Eyck. It is believed that Roger Van der Weyden was apprenticed in Campin's workshop."

End quote.

Susan

??? Does anyone know where the Spell Checker is in the new layout ???

wet

01-06-2004, 10:23 AM

There's a spell checker? :o Susan she is beautiful...again. I never hesitate to do something over if not happy. Now this is going to sound wierd but if I have an animal that I want to do it feels like they are compelling me to draw them. So if I struggle and start over and finish I haven't let them down. Boy oh boy that is wierd. I can't wait to see her finished and thanks for the history lesson very interesting!!! :D wanda

Sue Irish

01-06-2004, 10:43 AM

There's a spell checker? .... I can't wait to see her finished and thanks for the history lesson very interesting!!! :D wanda

Wanda,

SHE'S FINISHED !!!

I am not going any further on her. She and I have developed this very disfunctional love-hate relationship that I believe should be put out of our, hers and my, misery.

There was a spell checker in the old format ... something I have found myself very dependant on since using a computer.

Susan

wet

01-06-2004, 10:54 AM

Susan I'm sorry sould have relized that. She is beautiful. Have had those relationships too with a horse named Ben. Just can't look at him objectively. He MOCKS me! Dumb horse........Thanks for posting all of your struggles it helps to see someone elses proscess. Still looking for spell check. :o wanda

Meisie

01-06-2004, 02:15 PM

Sue you did a terrific job! I found your info on the pencils, colors and color combinations very interesting. Thank you!
I don't think the history lessons was expected, but it I find them all very interesting.
Meisie

gealflings

01-07-2004, 10:21 AM

Hey Sue!! :D

I don't know what happened - I've been following this thread but never commented. BAd BAD MONKEY! >hangs head in shame<

I really really like this version. That's not to say that I didn't like the other version, but this one is a lot smoother looking. Are you satisfied with it? Do you feel more accomplished with this version? Curiosity killed the cat and all. Good think I'm a dog person. lmao

bearded bob

01-07-2004, 11:16 AM

Ditto, Sue, I have not been commenting anywhere near enough, but I have been looking on in awe!

I absolutely love your finished version, despite the colour differences you point out. As with another attempt at this project, this has ended up as your take on the picture, not an exact copy, and I suspect this will be true of anyone who attempts this. What I note, and am unable to explain, is that yours seems a very "modern" lady! She has a challenge and purpose to her expression that is not matched by the submission in the old version. I think something to do with the darkness on the left side of her lips, which gives her a very firm line there? Not that there is anything wrong with that - like I said, I like your end result enormously. Thanks for the research, and also for explaining the importance of the coloured paper so well. :clap:

Sue Irish

01-07-2004, 11:25 AM

Hey Sue!! :D
Are you satisfied with it? Do you feel more accomplished with this version? Curiosity killed the cat and all. Good think I'm a dog person. lmao

Hey Good Lady!

I, too, have been watching your thread on this project. I got blown away when you said you only had a 24 pencil set and then looked at all those great colors you were getting ... very very impressive. When I decided to try these I splurged and let my business buy me a 120 set ... snicker ... tax write off expense under "owner's entertainment" or under "medical/mental health costs".

Yes, I am much more pleased with this one as compared to the last. She doesn't need a dermatologist (sp - skin doctor) which is a tremendous improvement. And some how I totally missed the clue about working small with colored pencils ... my oil canvases start at 32" on the smallest side. Dropping the size down to about 8" on the long side from 12" really made a difference.

But I think what really worked for me on 'redo girl' was that I listened to myself on how much more the paper could take and when I should stop. Last time I knew, and had posted, that I didn't think it could stand much more color but let myself get-feel-think 'nudged' into trying to do more toning with adding more layers. That's when I lost it. That's when the colors clumped and she developed a pregnancy mask.

So I can add to MY learning list ... no matter how great the suggestions offered, they are only suggestions. All work and decision on any cp, even projects, belongs to me ... this is not a "paint by commitee" situation ... :D

Susan

Sue Irish

01-07-2004, 11:28 AM

Sue Irish

01-07-2004, 11:35 AM

Bob, Have you posted a Master's Project yet?? I looked and don't see which one is under your name??

Susan

gealflings

01-07-2004, 12:03 PM

Hey Good Lady!

I, too, have been watching your thread on this project. I got blown away when you said you only had a 24 pencil set and then looked at all those great colors you were getting ... very very impressive. When I decided to try these I splurged and let my business buy me a 120 set ... snicker ... tax write off expense under "owner's entertainment" or under "medical/mental health costs".

LMAO!! Oooooh..business costs...>.drool.< I was whining about my lack of colors and the hubby assured me that we would get some more. The poor guy. hehehe

Yes, I am much more pleased with this one as compared to the last. She doesn't need a dermatologist (sp - skin doctor) which is a tremendous improvement. And some how I totally missed the clue about working small with colored pencils ... my oil canvases start at 32" on the smallest side. Dropping the size down to about 8" on the long side from 12" really made a difference.

Oh good!! I originally had posted that the first edition looked like she had rosacea, but I didn't want to offend anyone. LOL I'm glad you saw that too.. hehehe :D I'm quite relieved to be working smaller as well - my first cp piece was 32" tall - far too big for me. lolol

But I think what really worked for me on 'redo girl' was that I listened to myself on how much more the paper could take and when I should stop. Last time I knew, and had posted, that I didn't think it could stand much more color but let myself get-feel-think 'nudged' into trying to do more toning with adding more layers. That's when I lost it. That's when the colors clumped and she developed a pregnancy mask.

So I can add to MY learning list ... no matter how great the suggestions offered, they are only suggestions. All work and decision on any cp, even projects, belongs to me ... this is not a "paint by commitee" situation ... :D

Susan

Exactly!! You're the one that has to look at it and decide whether or not to love it! :) And I'd *hope* no one would be offended if the offered suggestion isn't taken - that what suggestions are all about - take it or leave it :p . It's your piece at the end of it all. :)

I'm glad you're satisfied with it, though - I know that I get frustrated and annoyed with myself, the piece, and everyone around me (I know I can blame failure on the cat, somehow) if something isn't looking right.

My dad's pearls of wisdom: From a musician's standpoint, he's constantly barraged by people coming up to him and saying "Well, wouldn't it be better if..." He says, "The Backstreet Boys are commercially successful musicians - would you listen to them if they told you how to arrange something?"

heheheheh :D

sunnyday54

01-07-2004, 01:27 PM

arlene

01-07-2004, 01:53 PM

Sue Irish

01-07-2004, 02:02 PM

well done. i agree about the mouth, but otherwise i think you did an excellent job. I would have liked to see her headress just a bit less yellow and the face but that's ok...if you want to very lightly go over both with a clay rose, I think you'll take them away from the yellows.

I don't think that it would.

Even using the lavender tones was enough to start pushing everything into a deeper orange, not into the reds. I think that going to a rose of any shade will only add to the orange effects right now.

The neutral grays did help deepen her and help to tone her down ... but between the fawn paper and the siennas that I used as my underpaintings ... reds I don't think will work at this point. By the time I add enough rose madder to swing it from yellow through the oranges into the reds I will be right back to overworked and clumpy.

Next time I'll go with the gray paper and not have a problem getting a rose brown skin tone.

Susan

bearded bob

01-07-2004, 04:18 PM

Bob, Have you posted a Master's Project yet?? I looked and don't see which one is under your name??

Susan

Sorry Sue - and all - I have not attempted this or any other project. :o I know I should, I know I would learn a lot, but I am doing what I want to do whenever I get the chance in breaks from commissions and illustration work and teaching. As someone trying to make a living from my art, I have to spend my time productively in terms of what is going to give me a monetary return. I have been busy, working on a big piece, that I will share when it is finished, but it is so big that it will need scanning in two halves and stitching, so i have been unable to do a WIP with it, it would take me too long each time. I promise I will share more in future, and you never know, this particular project has been so interesting I might get round to it.

Sue Irish

01-07-2004, 04:57 PM

Sue,

Your handling of the fabric is what particularly amazes me in this - I'm having trouble with my coloured lights. (Oh, It's off to the egg project!). Your relative values look really good to me, and when I look back at your other CP pieces, I see how far you've come in pushing to those darker values. If it weren't for Photoshop (or whatever program you use to make it grayscale), I wouldn't know it was lighter in value. Working to determine colour value is one of my projects right now! I agree with Bob about the "modern woman" - I think her left eyebrow also adds to that look. Great job! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Lynda

Lynda, Thank you for the nice words!!!! The fabric didn't bother me much, as you pointed out it's the darks that I need to work on. I saw the project for the white eggs I wonder if there is a project for black pool balls .... maybe I had better go search the forum.

Susan

Sue Irish

01-07-2004, 05:02 PM

Sorry Sue - and all - I have not attempted this or any other project. :o I know I should, I know I would learn a lot, but I am doing what I want to do whenever I get the chance in breaks from commissions and illustration work and teaching. As someone trying to make a living from my art, I have to spend my time productively in terms of what is going to give me a monetary return. I have been busy, working on a big piece, that I will share when it is finished, but it is so big that it will need scanning in two halves and stitching, so i have been unable to do a WIP with it, it would take me too long each time. I promise I will share more in future, and you never know, this particular project has been so interesting I might get round to it.

Bob,

PLEASE never feel the need to apologize for being focused and committed to both your career and your future in art. Commission work is some of the hardest there is in our line of work as you are trying to reproduce what someone with little or not art training is seeing in their mind's eye. Been there, done that, hopefully won't need to go back. I'm glad your here ... it's you and that you share your ideas, suggestions, and experiences that we on the forum need! That you find time to share in your schedule is far more than enough.

Susan

gnu

01-08-2004, 02:55 AM

wow, I've missed a lot in your thread!! I saw it at the beginning, and somehow have not got back to it till now..I had no idea you had done all this work ..and twice!!! wow..
I love what you have done..I admire you for doing another...the second one has awesome blending in the face, and I love the drapery too.. :clap: :clap:

lpaddock

01-11-2004, 10:14 PM

I admit defeat.

I simply do not have enough experience, control, or skill to yet be able to guide a colored pencil work to where I want it to go.
So, unless we are going to paint this mess with black green or cut it into pieces and make a new collage from the scraps this is trash.

Susan

ACK!!!! ..... I have not gotten to the end of this thread, but .... gosh... I hope you didn't trash it..... OMG!!!! Look at it!!!! it is not exactly what he did, but .... you did this.... I know that you are supposed to try to replicate, but look what you HAVE done.... gosh, you sent me into a panic!!! Like I had to reach out and rescue your beautiful piece, and put it away for a while, for you!!!

And like someone else mentioned.... a restored version! (I was amazed to see your samples!!!)

Well, off I go to continue reading.... and crossing my fingers that you continued!!!

Leah

ann_aurora

01-11-2004, 11:10 PM

Yikes! Sue!!! Please don't trash this piece! Really... you can mail it to me instead. I'll give it a nice frame and a good home, out of direct sunlight, and consider myself blessed!

24 pencils.... sheesh! No control? I don't think so....nuh-uh! This is beautiful. PM me for my address? :D

I'm starting another master's project, because I am trying to overcome my fear of drapery. I'm doing okay with naked people, but when they put their clothes on, oh.... it's not a pretty sight, at all! So, I've decided to torture myself with a little van Eyck, and see if I can get this guy's turban half-right. Here's the link (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159193).

Ann

Sue Irish

03-06-2004, 11:46 AM

Master's Project, Part Two

George Lotha Shay, 1866 - 1945, Preton County, WV. His wedding photo.

Susan

gemmag

03-06-2004, 11:51 AM

Wow Sue, I really like this!
Gemma

gealflings

03-06-2004, 11:57 AM

Excellent!!!!

I was just wondering to myself where you went, and here you are!! >.tackles you.<

:D

arlene

03-06-2004, 12:08 PM

So far so good! but you need more layers....alot so it has the feel of the old painting. also one point? the shadowing on either side of his neck is distracting.

Sue Irish

03-06-2004, 03:14 PM

Hey Gemma! Hey Sarah!

Arlene ... you think it looks distracting with the background neck shadows you should it it without! :D It looks like this detached floating head and neck severed from the jacket. In fact all it would need is a little blood and I would have the "Night of the Living Dead" in miniature because of the ring of white collar on the white background.... that is unless I had (Heaven's forbid :evil: ) outlined the white fabric.

I am very pleased with the old fashioned look for this work. It is worked from a sepia photo taken about 1885. So what I wanted was the look of a hand painted photo. As the original work for this project that I chose had no color for the scarf, only neutral tones to contrast the skin tone I wanted to do the same idea for the second part. I think the white shirt, white tie, and blackish vest and coat give the same neutrals against skin color contrast.

Although I have done a few faces I have never before this project attempted to do one individual portrait that was suppost to depict a particular person. So, since Great Granddad really looks like Great Granddad, I am very pleased.

More layers (groan).

Susan

wet

03-06-2004, 03:39 PM

Susan how long did this take you? Was it hard to get him to pose? ;) Made my daughter put on all kinds of silly props and posed her in the back yard. Hard to get a good pic of a giggly girl! I like that you posted this on your original thread it's fun to compare the two. Great job!! :D wanda

Sue Irish

03-06-2004, 04:33 PM

More layers added plus the background shadows muted and paled ...

I started him last night so about six or eight hours is all. He is on white Stratmore, Prismas, 4" x 7".

As for getting old George to pose it really was an accomplishment. I inherited three of the family alubms for this family line from around 1850 through the early 1900's. Everything from old glass plate photos to a couple of hand colored photos that appear around 1920. One album is in excellent shape but the other two had been 'restored' at some time with lots and lots of the early version of scotch tape. So I have several of the photos that are stained with cracking, pealing, and yellowing tape residue. The hardest problem to take is that there are many of the photos that were never identified.

For George I have two wonderful photos. This is one and the other is a group photo taken the same day, his wedding, where he and his six brothers and sister, plus their spouses are situated in a wooded garden. I know that everyone shown is a sipling-spouse but I have no reference as to who is who ... very, very sad. The only one I have of his wife, Elsie Burchinal, is when she was about 80 years old. She is a beautiful white haired dowinger with a wool shawl and white lace night cap ... might do her as a compliment to George.

Ohhh ... we're we not to post the Part Two to the Part One???
Susan