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bearded bob
08-14-2004, 07:56 AM
Hi all, I have been busy and thought it best to put all of my thoughts here in one thread rather than split them up between the several they belong in. Hope that’s OK. I will break things up and as usual skip what you don’t want.

If you recall, I went off for a bit saying I wanted to get creative. No chance. I don’t know if I have a creative bone in my body, I seem to be able to do anything except create, and also to do anything to avoid being creative. I got stuck on my last commission because I could not find a colour, so I thought I should go and do some colour work. This is repetitive, fairly scientific, involved me doing a lot of drawing boxes and circles and filling things in—so suited my personality perfectly. I have learned a lot though. I started with colour wheels, from Arlene's wonderful Color Theory 101 thread. Here are some. As usual I did not read the instructions properly, so the first is with white and black, not a complement. The second is an attempt to show what happens when you mix in the complementary colours in stages—look at Orange and True Blue for instance, and it starts pure colour at Orange, then roughly 90% orange, 75% , 55% , 45% , 25% and 10% going across to pure True Blue. The third wheel tries to reproduce this using three colours only.

bearded bob
08-14-2004, 08:00 AM
What did I learn? That this is actually a lot more complicated than Arlene sets out, which is perfectly understandable as she set out to do a beginners course. If you want to look at color theory 501, then have a look at www.handprint.com - a guy called Bruce McEvoy, who I have not heard of, but may be some famous artist. He has pages of post-grad level stuff that I could not follow but which does raise lots of interesting points.

What else? - that if you place a colour opposite another on a colour wheel, that does not necessarily make them complementary. The colour spectrum is actually overloaded with reds and blues, and there are not enough yellows,
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Aug-2004/27477-specol.jpg

so if you stretch the spectrum around a circle, the actual placement of colours should look more like this,
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Aug-2004/27477-cielabwheel.jpg
making colours opposite that you would not expect.


That there is no such thing as a primary colour, you can pick and choose which ones you like. Colour is very personal thing—in tests to find what people consider a pure green for example, responses ranged from chartreuse to blue greens. Also, if a primary colour is defined as one you cannot mix, which is what I was always told, then this is total nonsense—all colours can be mixed.

That it is very easy to make mud with three pencils, but quite hard with two.

That I should have tried this on good paper, not the heavyweight cartridge I used.

That intensity, saturation, value, tone, hue, chroma, tint, shade, luminosity, brilliance all have meaning (some the same meaning!) and all interact—I think I understand these a bit better, but only enough to see how complex things really are.

That I had to use a heavy hand. I tried to do everything at an even level of coverage of the paper, which turned out to be maximum in most cases. Mixing the colours at lower levels of coverage was very hard.

I ended up understanding colour a lot better, and I was very pleased and surprised at how the three pencil wheel gave me lovely pure colours in the outer ring.

bearded bob
08-14-2004, 08:01 AM
I then went on to look at complementary colours a bit more, taking the 12 colours I had used and mixing them with four possibilities for true complements and seeing which worked best. Scientifically, you see a colour because the pigment is absorbing most wavelengths of light and just reflecting some back at you. A true complement will absorb these wavelengths also, and you should see black, or a grey tone if some of the white light is reflected back as well. Not sure if I was able to find any true complements, but from an artists point of view I found lots of interesting and useful combinations.

bearded bob
08-14-2004, 08:03 AM
Then I spent a lot of time trying to put other Karisma/Prismacolor pencils into their place in the colour wheel. Where do the browns go for instance? Here is what I came up with—by no means perfect, I can see lots of things that I would want to change if I did it again, but it does give some idea of the colour landscape available in these pencils. I used 20 colours in the main circle, instead of 12. This meant that “primaries” and “secondaries” were no longer directly opposite each other, and I could get a few more blues and reds in to reflect the real spectrum. No neons, no decos, no greys. The greys would have to be in a third axis, in planes above and below the sheet of paper. The neons and decos have pigments that fluoresce, that actually give off their own light, so these do not obey normal colour mixing rules. What did I learn? This helped me understand particularly how the browns relate in terms of value and their position in the red– yellow range. It also confirmed how subjective this is, after several disagreements with my daughter about where colours should go.

bearded bob
08-14-2004, 08:04 AM
Then I tried a couple of the projects, two colours that are complementary, and the RGB project. I used the coffee pot photo, adapting the fruit appropriately. The complementary colours worked well. I used FC Polychromos, and again the cheap paper, which was a mistake. It was fun to use the FC again, I have not used them in a while, and was pleased to relearn how nice these feel. But I chose a light orange, and a darker one would have been better. The three colour one also suffers a bit from a poor choice, this time of blue—I chose a Mid Phthalo Blue, and again the darker one would have given me more tonal range. I did like the effect of mixing the three pencils here though, even despite being unable to get some real darks. It gave a very interesting mix of colours, and I can easily see how a limited palette can work now. I can understand now how, say, Debra Yaun’s 12 colour palette, can work well, and am at least much more accepting of being able to use a palette where I chuck out fugitive colours.

bearded bob
08-14-2004, 08:05 AM
So - no creative stuff, but a lot of stuff that I should have done a long time ago, and I hope a lot more understanding of how to mix colours in cp. I am going to try to do some creative stuff now, honest! Feel free to add any comments you like on what I have put up here.

siberart
08-14-2004, 08:33 AM
This is an amazing lesson. Thanks for taking all the time to do and show this. Looking forward to your "creations".

SilverFeather
08-14-2004, 09:16 AM
Wow Bob, you have been working and it was great of you to share what you've discovered!

I think I learned the most from your mixing the colors with four complementaries. Those boxes are really useful and would save a lot of time experimenting.

As for the scientific part...well, I'll just stick to my usual "what looks good together and represents the subject I'm trying to suggest, as I see it, is what I'll use"

A couple of questions...
First what is it about deco colors that they don't fit in? Because Deco Blue is one of my faves!

I would also like to ask you why you decided that a heavier hand is best because I have such a heavy hand and am always struggling to draw "very lightly" with my pencils. So hearing this was great news to me!!!

Thirdly, How many layers did you use in the two drawings here?
Again thanks for sharing and I wish you inpiration! :)

SilverFeather
08-14-2004, 09:19 AM
One more thing...
I'm happy to hear that you are giving limited palettes a try. I love RYB and I'm so facinated with the colors I've achieved on my Yucca CP painting.
Now I'm wondering about trying a RYB drawing with other reds, yellows, and blues, well, other than Process Red, Canary Yellow, and True Blue.
Any ideas on this?
And is it still a three color palette if you use more than one blue, red and yellow?

Thanks :D

Glenspey
08-14-2004, 09:33 AM
Thanks for sharing Bob, I have found this really enlightening. I will be rereading as and when.
Thanks again.

Gayle

pinkrybns
08-14-2004, 09:48 AM
Excellent study Bob! and you're right, color theory is not as easy as one initially thinks - even for me who had it over and over again in art school. And to make it even more complicated there are other ideas on what color makes up the color wheel - Itten did work on this for the Bauhaus.

And now maybe you see why I say that choosing color all boils down to choices between reds, yellows and blues (and variations of the same) ?

I think time out lessons such as you did, can only increase your knowledge of any chosen medium and, hopefully, make understanding the process and personal choices that much easier - well maybe not that easy, but you know ... :rolleyes:

Nice stuff!
~Judy

arlene
08-14-2004, 10:23 AM
wonderful bob....you should be proud of yourself for taking on this. I'm adding it to the hall of fame now.

Asher
08-14-2004, 11:03 AM
Fantastic job, Bob! Well worth its place in the HOF. You've done a great job of distilling a lot of the info on handprint's web site as it pertains to CP.

Sanford

sunnyday54
08-14-2004, 03:30 PM
Bob, I'm voting this thread an "Excellent" rating and I'm glad it's been put in the HOF. I spent lots of time doing Arlene's "Color 101" assignments and learned a lot, but you've taken those lessons so much further! The more we study the basics, the easier it is to be creative - we don't have to think about so many things. Kind of like driving a car - until you learn how to use the pedals automatically, you can't enjoy the scenery!

Regarding your creativity, may I suggest a book called " Drawing From Within - Unleashing Your Creative Potential" by Nick Meglin. It's an easy read and I found his viewpoint quite helpful. From you comments, it sounds like your "inner critic" is getting the best of you. I, for one, immensely enjoy your work.

I hope your next drawing is done for the "fun" of it! :)

Lynda

frida
08-14-2004, 09:01 PM
I have also rated it Excellent! You have done a lot of work here, and even though you don't call it creative, you have certainly used your time well, and I thank you for sharing all this.

I am waiting from the library for a book about colour by Betty Edwards, famous "right side of the brain" author. I also shall look for the one Lynda recommends... :)

Sanne
08-14-2004, 10:52 PM
Yes i too bob learnt something from this, even tho some if it went over my head a little, i might some day soon challenge myself to read a bit more about it :)

Thanks AGain for taking the time to post :)

Patrick1
08-14-2004, 11:45 PM
Wow...great post, Bob. I love colour wheels & charts. You could try posting on the colour theory forum.

I bought some Derwent Signature and Signature Watercolour pencils for colour wheels/charts (because thery're the only ones I know of that lists the pigments). I'm disappointed in their feel...I find both the regular and watercolour ones crumbly and sticky/draggy (when used dry...I don't want to use water). Though my colourless blender pencil smooths it out pretty well. I also don't like that their ulramarine blue, phthalo blues and greens, and dioxazine purple are nowhere near as dark in masstone as oil or acrylic paints. But I'll live with that...their colour mixing correlates reasonably well with paints.

For example I know that in paints you can mix up a good approximation of indanthrone blue with quinacridone magenta plus phthalo blue. I tried that today with the Derwent PR122 and PB15, and it worked perfectly.

BTW, Bruce MacEvoy is a WC member (by the name of 'drollere'), but last time I checked, he only made three posts. I suspect he got fed up with one of the debates on the colour theory forum.

prospector
08-15-2004, 12:49 AM
Howdy Bob, Yer on the right track with the R/Y/b palett. I worked with B & W mostly pen & ink for years before I started using color. Then I forced my self to mix what I saw from R/Y/B.. Color just adds emotion to the structure of form, and values, that is my color theory.. :cool:

Jack

bearded bob
08-15-2004, 06:39 AM
Thanks all.
Pat - don't hold your breath on the creativity thing!

Carol - the decos, I found very hard to fit in - I think they would have to above that plane somehow because of the luminosity - they do contain fluorescers that give them the glow like soap powders. Why so heavy? 3 reasons. I was continually adding light layers to start with, adjusting colours, and built up a lot of colour that way, then later just went for it. I felt the paper had to be saturated to give a true value, otherwise the white of the paper gave tints. And I also found I had to have plenty of pigment on before I could blend with the colourless blender. The pictures had 10-12 layers at the most. Other RYB combinations will give you results, but different ones. For instance if you use scarlet you cannot get a purple with True Blue, because the yellow in the scarlet turns it into a dark grey - its not far off what you get with orange.

Judy - thanks, and I still have no idea how you did your apple!

Arlene - I am not proud of this. It is something I should have done years ago, but was too lazy, and something I used as an excuse to avoid doing what I feel I will fail at.

Lynda - I don't have an inner critic - I am all critic! See above

Patrick - I am surprised you disliked both Sigs - i find the w/sol ones fine, tho I agree a bit crumbly. Great colours though.

Jack - I like your definition, and emotion is something I definitely want to try to bring in, but am struggling with.

BKWYRM
08-15-2004, 10:17 AM
Bob, I, too, read this thread with fascination. I will refer to it frequently now that it will be easily accessible through the HOF. I was utterly fascinated with your wheels and info on the distribution of colors in the spectrum.

Sorry to disagree with you, but I think this type of work is a vital part of the creative process. Your brain is absorbing this knowledge and your hands and eyes are familiarizing themselves with new ways of making color. When you next paint something that is not a little square shape, this work will manifest itself because you will have moved it from a conscious to an unconscious process.

frida
08-15-2004, 12:37 PM
Debra Yaun’s 12 colour palette, can work well, and am at least much more accepting of being able to use a palette where I chuck out fugitive colours.
I never heard about Debra's palette... Can you please expand on it? Thanks! :)

Well said, Kathy! I also believe that even if the approach may be scientific, the learning becomes part of the creative realm in a natural process of integration. Many of us need to follow the scientific path, but are also capable of using well our "other side". Think of Escher (sp?)...

wet
08-15-2004, 12:59 PM
Bob my hat is off to you for forcing yourself to do this. I need to!! I am very bad at wanting to jump right to desert before dinner if you know what I mean. I am soooo glad this will be in the hof for easy reference. :D wanda

sunnyday54
08-15-2004, 02:29 PM
Arlene - I am not proud of this. It is something I should have done years ago, but was too lazy, and something I used as an excuse to avoid doing what I feel I will fail at.

Lynda - I don't have an inner critic - I am all critic! See above



Bob, I guess my next question to you would be " What does being creative mean to you?" In the quote above, you feel you will fail, so I'm wondering what your expectations are? Your technical skills are excellent (and your teaching skills are superb!). I went back and looked through all your threads (reread, by the way, I've followed all of them at the time they were new), and you usually use a phote reference. You seem to feel you are a copyist, so when I ask about your view on creativity, I'm wondering where you see the creative part fitting in? This is not a criticism, just wondering because I, too, have struggled with the "creative" thing, and have decided that I need to draw more from life and to have fun while doing it (and to not focus AT ALL on the end result).

Lynda

Sorry this is so wordy, and maybe a little off thread topic, but I read every single post in this forum (although I don't post too often). I feel I know most of you, and Bob, your inner struggle touches a chord with me.

bearded bob
08-15-2004, 02:31 PM
Raquel I am only going by the one book I have with some of her work in - looks to be the companion to the one you quoted in the w/sol pencils thread - Colored Pencil Step By Step, Pat Averill, Debra Yaun and Sylvester Hickmon, Walter Foster Artists Library series no. 39. In these Debra does four demos, all using not 12 but just 8 pencils - I got it wrong again! - Magenta, Peach, Forest Green (a bit more blue than Olive Green 911), Dark umber, Cobalt Blue (Copenhagen blue?) Black and White. Great work, and a very useful alternative to the Kullberg method for portraits

bearded bob
08-15-2004, 02:44 PM
Lynda, I came very late indeed to art, I did none at all until I was 45 - I am now 53. I guess I have this idea that an artist can draw anything from their imagination. I can draw most things from photos or from life - not so good on the human figure from life, but set up a still life and I am able to concentrate and draw a fair representation. But to me this is not creative, it is copying. I am lacking in what Jack said was the third dimension of art work - the form bit I can generally do, the value bit I am still learning, but the emotion is what I lack, and I am hoping the colour work I have done will help on that even as bkwyrm said on a subconscious level. But what I really want to do is to draw dragons, to draw castles like Piranesi, to draw Rivendell, to draw other planets, aliens, monsters, witches - and I can't. I cannot draw anything that I cannot see. The other thing I would like to do is to make images with some power, like Arlenes for example, or so many others. Again I cannot. I don't seem to have a lot to say even though there is a lot I feel strongly about. I think you are right that I need to do a lot more drawing, I don'y have a sketch book and I should. Dave gave similar advice - get on with it stop moaning! I am working on some stuff now that forces me to be creative. I may share later, but I am probably setting myself up to fail at it by feeling already that I will fail.

sunnyday54
08-15-2004, 03:16 PM
Hey, we're the same age! I can relate to what you're feeling. I've loved art all my life, but only did about one project a year (or less) for the last 15 or so years - it seemed so stressful (with my expectations of what it should look like) that I avoided drawing anything else until the next Spring. I have all the supplies, and tons of books, but I couldn't bring myself to the "doing". When I found this forum, I decided to just start drawing, and to h**l with what it turned out like. Now I read less of my books and draw more, and I don't focus on the result, but on the feeling I have while "doing". I keep a sketchbook (that doesn't have to be "perfect") that I also write in - I need to distill my feelings about things into a single thought, then draw that thought. I'm allowing myself to not have to be perfect. Sounds like you have lots of creative ideas - you're just afraid to let them out!! :D Keep your sketchbook to yourself, and try not to judge what you draw in it. Remember "Practice Makes Progress" (get rid of the word perfect from your vocabulary." I look forward to seeing your creative work when you're ready to show it. I'm sure it will be great!

Lynda

BKWYRM
08-15-2004, 03:26 PM
Bob, your gift is your vision. Just because you can't pull images out of your head doesn't mean you are a "copyist". My art teacher, who is a very talented individual, says that she can't draw what she can't see. It's what she does with what she sees that is so unique and inspiring.

You give voice to the nasty voice inside my head on the really, really bad, black days.I don't seem to have a lot to say even though there is a lot I feel strongly about. Be glad you have such strong feelings and channel those into your work.

From what I see, you have some amazing work that is simply gorgeous. It troubles me that you are so down about yourself and your work. Listen to Dave--keep working, keep sharing, and STOP listening to that horrid critic.

I have consciously changed my definition of an artist to "someone who MUST draw or paint". If you are compelled to put marks down on paper, and it satisfies a hunger in your soul, then I'm calling that person an artist.

Sorry if I'm long-winded and off topic, but I do feel really passionately about this particular subject.

SilverFeather
08-15-2004, 05:19 PM
Thanks Bob for explaining. While experimenting I found out that all reds, yellows and blues don't mix to give you all colors! About the layers and pressure I'm like you, I don't want white of the paper showing and always get heavy handed before I probably should.
About Debra Yaun's palette you said 8 colors and I only counted 7, did I miss one or are there 2 greens?

I remember reading once where daVinci drew dragons but used real objects for reference so if you want to draw dragons, castles try using real animals, buildings, etc. as references and add your own touch.
Just a thought.

Anyway I know a girl who asked me once if I can draw from my head and I told her I do sometimes but not often because there are so many things in nature that inspire me and that I want other people to se the way I do.
She said,"well then you are not much of an artist if you have to copy things you see."
I told her that is nonsense. She told me that she can draw but doesn't because she can't draw from memory like a true artist should. HaHa!!

Bob, you have what it takes, great talent and most importantly strong feelings for art, the subject etc.
I'm far from an expert but I know I learn more and make wonderful discoveries from drawing from life and drawing what I love, animals and nature. I don't usually draw animals from life but simple things like a bottle or my foot for example. I discover things about perspective, color, light, values etc. when playing so much more than when working on a "serious piece".
Just let go of the pressure and draw, draw, draw and one day soon it'll come to you...I'm sure of it. ;)

arlene
08-15-2004, 05:20 PM
Sorry to disagree with you, but I think this type of work is a vital part of the creative process. Your brain is absorbing this knowledge and your hands and eyes are familiarizing themselves with new ways of making color. When you next paint something that is not a little square shape, this work will manifest itself because you will have moved it from a conscious to an unconscious process.

i couldn't have said it better myself.

arlene
08-15-2004, 05:48 PM
My turn to chime in here. First, would you consider me a creative artist? I'm hoping you'll say yes...so then we can move forward to my rebutting some of your comments...if you don't consider me creative then feel free to ignore my comments.

I guess I have this idea that an artist can draw anything from their imagination.

Who the heck fed you this line of manure?

Not even the greatest artists of all time were able to do that. Even the old dutch masters did studies from life and then combined several studies into one painting...sort of like I did in photoshop first with Dichotomy, where I worked from 4 photos to create one.

I can draw most things from photos or from life - not so good on the human figure from life, but set up a still life and I am able to concentrate and draw a fair representation. But to me this is not creative, it is copying.

So you set up the still life, draw what you claim is a fair representation either from life or using photo reference, and then claim you're not creative? Who set up the still life? Your aunt? or did you set it up?

In my current work, Asian Influences, I set up the still life and took photos of it, and am now working directly from the photo, "copying" the image. It will still wind up as my vision and not the camera's because i bring to it everything I know and how I feel about what I'm drawing.

You do the same. No one sees a photo in quite the same way...take the same photo and both of us will draw and see it slightly different...look at the three versions of columbine that frida, olika and myself did from when I taught class, to see what I mean. Each of us brought our own creative vision to the drawing...THAT'S WHAT YOU DO WITH YOUR ART, AND IT IS ART!

I am lacking in what Jack said was the third dimension of art work - the form bit I can generally do, the value bit I am still learning, but the emotion is what I lack, and I am hoping the colour work I have done will help on that even as bkwyrm said on a subconscious level.

I find it odd that you don't see the emotion in your work, but I do see it.

But what I really want to do is to draw dragons, to draw castles like Piranesi, to draw Rivendell, to draw other planets, aliens, monsters, witches - and I can't.

then use references...why can't you use references of castles and change parts as you like, or the same with planets...or witches...what is a witch but a woman dressed differently? use photo references of women. for dragons use references of lizards and bats...you see what i'm getting at?

The other thing I would like to do is to make images with some power, like Arlenes for example, or so many others. Again I cannot.

really you've seen three images that have "power" from me. Two which came naturally (Coal Miner and When Time Stopped) and one that I felt was a bit forced (Dichotomy). Everything else i do is the same as you. I take a photo, and "copy" it.

But where my vision comes in is again with how i set it up in the camera and on the paper, and then how i interpret it...my color choices (like jack using reds and purples on his building) my way of handling the pencil, etc. You do the same thing, but you just lack the confidence to believe in yourself.

And let's not forget one other thing Bob. I've been creating art since I was 6 years old. I don't recall ever going more then six months without creating. Even if it was just a wallpaper pattern. You've now been creating art for 8 years, yet you're impatient to be further along.

How about instead of beating yourself up over where you think you should be already in your art career, to just look back and see how far you've come...you've made tremendous strides in your art and with your last couple of pieces i see a wonderful moving forward in a giant leap. Take pride in that!

I may share later, but I am probably setting myself up to fail at it by feeling already that I will fail.

Yep you are. you are doing what i tell my students NOT to do. You are looking at the outcome instead of enjoying the process. As artists we have to love the process, not the outcome.

Every piece is a learning experience. We're all students! We learn from each work we do and complete. Some we're happier with then others. I would be lying if i said I am happy with everything I've done.

Matter of fact with every single piece i've done, when I'm finished, I look at it and say, I could have done (fill in the blank) differently or should have done it this way instead of that. That's what keeps us going and also what keeps us trying to improve our art.

Look at any great artist and see their progression from when they first started to their last pieces.

arlene
08-15-2004, 05:53 PM
Bob, your gift is your vision. Just because you can't pull images out of your head doesn't mean you are a "copyist". My art teacher, who is a very talented individual, says that she can't draw what she can't see.

the only things i can draw out of my head are things i've drawn already thousands of times...like some flowers. but even when doing that, they lack in terms of really having depth, nuances, etc.

I have consciously changed my definition of an artist to "someone who MUST draw or paint". If you are compelled to put marks down on paper, and it satisfies a hunger in your soul, then I'm calling that person an artist.


that would be my definition also. it's a shame we always feel we have to be better then anyone else, because honestly? there's always someone who's better then us. And that is with anything we do...not just art.

better to just be the best we can and continue learning.

frida
08-15-2004, 06:07 PM
I am probably setting myself up to fail at it by feeling already that I will fail.
So, what if you do? Your own Winston Churchill said Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm!

But... do you really fail? Or is what you end up doing below your expectations? There's a big difference.

Removing the word "perfect" from one's vocabulary, as Lynda said - lowering our standards - being open to what is going to be at the end - going on to the next piece using the experience gained - all are important. And as we work more and more only evaluating, NEVER JUDGING, we loosen up and do better work.

Go on Bob! If you doubt yourself, listen to this bunch of groupies until you are convinced!!! :D

BKWYRM
08-15-2004, 07:20 PM
Bob, I hope you don't mind my yapping at you. I have felt how you feel, but have made a conscious effort to persevere despite my doubts. There are three things that actually have helped me quite a bit.

1) Reading Betty Edwards' book "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" and understanding how she has applied scientific method to the "creative" process of drawing. In one section she compares learning drawing skills with learning reading skills. She asks us to imagine what it would be like if nobody was taught to read and only those with innate "talent" for reading were fortunate enough to be able to read and write. The same things goes for art.

2) For me, drawing has become a lot more about the emotional process involved in the creation of the piece. The more emotional I am during the process, the better the finished piece. There's a definite path that I travel as well, as it goes from the excitement of possibilities, through the dreaded "ugly stage" to the can't put it down infatuation of real progress.

3) Art is hard work. Bloody hard work.

there's always someone who's better then us. And look how much they can teach us!

Over time, if you just keep on, you will begin to close the gap between what's in your head and what's on your page. Okay, enough yapping. :D

Sanne
08-15-2004, 07:31 PM
Here here Arlene!!! I agree with everything you said !! and what the others have said.
Its particularly true in the art world but maybe to put it in another context for you, its the same in the design world, i am sure you have all seen the same colour combinations in logos, brochures etc. and i would say its pretty true to say that most things "have been done" before, but its how you put them together that makes them unique and triggers the desired emotions for the viewer :)
Art is the same.. you will see that from the projects in this forum, many people have done the same project over and each one of them is different in its own way. That is their creative input into the project :)

Thats my 2cents worth :) Maybe you need to look at your perception, i know that when i talk about CP's to fellow art people they kinda scoff at the idea that its art (not being very well known down here) but as soon as i show them some of all of you guy's work via this forum their perception changes that it really is art :) but really their perception doesnt really matter as i know how its art and i know better :)

Beverly_A
08-15-2004, 11:51 PM
Hi Bob!

Well, I have been composing a reply for hours on notepad as I was drawing, dealing with my family and so on. Now that I am finally ready to post, I see I'm basically going to be repeating what's already been said! :rolleyes: But I wrote it, darn it! So I'm gonna post it..LOL!

I love your lesson here and all the amazing thought and research that went into it. A scientist indeed you are. Perhaps a little exercising of the right side of your brain would be in order? Technically, you are wonderful. You can see things and render them perfectly and beautifully. You feel things but you're not seeing these emotions expressed in your work, this is what I have also been dealing with. I think you need to stop thinking so much, that dominant left side of your brain will affect the emotional content of your artwork.

In my own similiar struggle, the realization I have come to is that the subject matter I deal with is instrumental in allowing me to pour my emotions into my work. Rather than look for a picture which is pleasing to my eye, I look for an image which I can feel. I'm no longer going to render a photo which is basically only a technical challenge. I'm going to try to create my impression of an image that has moved me. I find the entire process feels different to me because I am so in love with the subject. The challenge then shifts from technical to emotional expression. Art is different to everyone, of course.. but this, to me, is art.

I have never felt art must be formed entirely from the imagination nor do I think that is the true definition of creativity. This is a topic which had a large thread on the WC Debate forum. I honestly can't imagine achievinging highly realistic work from the imagination until you have years of practice rendering from references of the same objects. Even if you aren't drawing from a specific image, I think you would still need references for proportion and whatnot. If you're not concerned with realism, that's a different story, of course. Have you drawn castles and the other subjects you mentioned from ref photos? Perhaps you need to focus your efforts on those since that is what moves you. Eventually you will be able to draw on the experience and draw from your imagination more if that's what you feel a need to do. I think using a reference yet adjusting the colors, contrasts, shadows and such is using your imagination and being creative. It is all about your perception of something and putting that down on paper. That is how you are expressing yourself through your creation!

How people interpret it is a whole different story but that's what art's all about!

bearded bob
08-16-2004, 05:29 AM
About Debra Yaun's palette you said 8 colors and I only counted 7, did I miss one or are there 2 greens?
Sorry Carol, and Raquel - I missed out Canary Yellow.

The rest of you guys - I feel like I just came out of the Principals office. Thanks for all the kind words and for taking the time to try to sort me out. I will read and reflect on what you say most humbly and try to take it in. I do know that this group is the most caring and helpful that I have ever belonged to, and I do appreciate you all very much. Now, i am going back to work.

marilyn h
08-16-2004, 02:02 PM
Thank you! What a treat to see this color palette!

Relax Bob! Don't you know that "struggle" is our middle name.
We all go through the doubting thomas syndrome of our work.
I don't think learning stops for a moment. Your work shows so much progress. Don't you know that we all lack the confidence to do what other people do.
I am finding out, that I am not other people, I am me. This is my style. Accept your talent, just excell on it.

frida
08-16-2004, 02:05 PM
Since we all started to share about doubts and anxiety around our CP work, I wanted to share something else with you all... I did post it on the OTL a while back, but it seemed to go unnoticed. I insist, if you bear with me, because it makes some very special points:

Finding your own voice means getting your hands, your eyes, your heart, and your mind in alignment with your work.
If, for instance, you've learned to draw very well but you don't have a clue what to draw, then you have your hand and your eye in your work, but you need to bring your heart and mind into it.
If you have lots of great ideas that feel earthshaking in their importance, but you don't know how to convey them, then it's time to develop your hand and your eye. Taking The Leap, Cay Lang.

Also a different look at it, this time in the form of a chart. It is read horizontally. I have both versions on my "studio" walls. I hope they help shed some (inner) light... :)

Meisie
08-16-2004, 02:47 PM
Great thread Bob! You info is really good and you are a good teacher!

Lots of great input from other folks....I'm going to add this only :

Strange how we human beings so easily believe a lie....and how slow we are to accept the truth...

Meisie :D

marilyn h
08-16-2004, 08:30 PM
Thanks Raquel/Frida for this saying. I will copy, paste and put it on my mirrors and refrigerator. I think we all learn at different speeds. I feel so lucky to just have lived long enough to gather some momentum.

raspberryred
08-17-2004, 04:32 AM
Hi Bob, I am the lurker here who reads and looks and enjoys everything and never even tries. You have expressed so much of what I feel and I can't even try. I did buy Art & Fear a book Gorilla recommended to me and it is very helpful. I am getting closer. Take care and listen to your heart! It is all in there. You could not have better friends than you will find here. Now go draw Puff the Magic Dragon as none of us have seen him either. :clap: