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Sue Irish
04-03-2004, 06:06 AM
As I was working on this doodle-design of pansies this morning it hit me that I had totally missed what the second part of the Master's Project was about ... my first take to this (Part Two) was that it was about portrait work as that was what many of us choose as our project, that is what I choose. Plus as I don't do portraits just the subject matter was unsettling for me. So my reaction to Part Two was .... "Oh, NO! Another portrait!"

But ... in scanning this doodle and all the odd pieces of work that went with it I realized that Part Two is about WHAT I learned about CP art, the process, the thinking, the stages, the developement .... not the subject that I used to learn it. So with your premission I would like to do Part Two over.


WHAT I learned with the Master's Project, Part Two

1. As a newbie to Colored Pencils it is to my advantage to keep the work small in size. So much is happening inside a CP drawing that by staying small I do not overwhelm myself with trying to control too large an area. As I develop more skill in this media I can expand the canvas size with more confidence.

2. Scanning a drawing several times during the process helps me to stand back from the work and look at it with a detached attitude. Taking it from the paper to the computer puts a different perspective on the work. This also lets me take time to 'think' about what I have already done and where I want to go next - what's working and what's not. Because there is no 'drying time limits' for blending colors as in oils or acrylics I can take as much time as I want or need before moving on to the next stage.

3. Checking the gray scale value after each scanning allows me to adjust the tonal values easily and early in the work. As color can be deceiving for me with tonal values I can quickly be mislead into thinking I have established enough contrasts between the darks, mediums, and lights in the shading because I am looking at hue instead of value. (pansie3.jpg)

4. Keeping a color chart as I work is extremely important. I can both return to a certain pencil color easily as I have recorded that number. With so many different pencil colors and manufacturers at a later date if I wish to revisit a particular color combination I have a reference guide of both my color successes and my color failures. (pansie2.jpg)

5. Lots and lots of different colors gives vibrancy to CP work. If this had been an oil painting I probably would not have had more than seven or eight colors on my palette. On this simple pansy design I count 29 different pencils used ... those are the ones I remembered to mark down as I know I missed a few where I used just a touch of color in two or three small areas. I thinks this vibrancy comes because no matter how careful I am no two areas of color are the same because of the translucent quality of the pencils and the techniques used to create layer upon layer. This means each element of the designs is constantly changing.

6. Probably the most important lesson for me is how important the very early layers of color are to the finished work. This early thin layers seem excruciatingly slow and tedious yet they are the very ones that will make a major difference in the later stages. Although the scan of the mixing chart did not come out as distinct as it could the actual chart shows that each rectangle is a separate color from the rest. The most dramatic changes in the upper layers of color are created from the lower (first) layers that I laid down. The earliest layers seem to determine the final color created.

7. Gentle, slow, and careful progress will help me reach my goal with colored pencils. This may be the first 'race' where slowness counts in that the finer the layers the richer the final colors appear.


I must admit that I totally missed how much the Master's Project taught me ... Thank You, Arlene!!!! I missed it until I realized this morning all the odd papers and odd work I had done just to make these pansies. It seemed natural to me at the time to be doing this extra work but I realize now that I would never had done any of it before attempting the Master's Project.

As I probably will be thinkin' of this the rest of the day, if I think of more I'll post them. If you have something you learned from this project to add, I would be very pleased for you to do so as I may not have considered your point of view or missed it's importance.

Thanks for letting me have a Do-Over.

Susan :D

billiam
04-03-2004, 06:41 AM
beautiful artwork. from the sumation i knew you had to be an artisan. your web site is wonderful, it would be worth purchasing a packet to get the patterns to use as references. very enjoyable viewing, and explaination of your perspective and understanding. thank you, i need all the help wc gives. bill

pinkrybns
04-03-2004, 08:09 AM
Hi Sue,

I don't have anything especailly intelligent to say this morning ( hahah, I think I used it all up earlier in the OTL.....lol), but I'd agree with your list of what you learned (excpet maybe writing the numbers down.....that's tooooo analytical for me to be bothered with... I just chuck the pencils I'm using into a cup of their own or else they'd be lost in the tangle of my work desk... :eek: .. that's just a personal trait, as I'm sure you know. )

I do particularly agree with the bit about CP being a slow race to win...think turtle & hare story. I actually like the slow process...works for me. :)

I did want to say that I am intrigued at the way you do your overlapping color chart bands...looks like quilt patterns to me. How interesting they look! When and if I ever do a color chart , it looks like the ravings of a mad woman...hahaha I've always worked like this, a bit more intutitive and I change my mind so much. Maybe that's not such a great thing, but it's me...hahaha

The pansies look sweet, tasty colors, beautifully rendered, but errr...one lil nit, if I may? (well too bad, here it come anyway) The greyish smudgy bit behind them would work a bit better, I think ( not sure, mind you) if you carried it further out a bit more and gradually feathered it to a nothingness...just my opinion, since to me it looks sort of non-committal/timid right now and distracts me for some/same reason. If you can figure out what I just wrote there, you are a genius!

~Judy

Sue Irish
04-03-2004, 08:14 AM
Judy! Thank You! That is exactly what it needs desperately ... non-comittal is what it is. Back to the work table! No ... might wait a bit as someone may come up with a better color addition as well to strengthen this area.

Bill ... thanks for the nice words, encouragement always is great to get.

Susan

GenineAnn
04-03-2004, 09:42 AM
Susan,

I love the way that you are so articulate in describing your work processes. I find it very helpful/useful for my own work.

Also, got a kick outta how you called this a "Do-Over". Reminds me of when us kids would be playing a game outside and miss the ball or jump rope whatever, we'd want a "Do-Over"...takes me back as I haven't heard that phrase in a long time.

The grayscale is something I'd like to utilize as well for just the reasons you have mentioned. I have Photoshop 2 and can't seem to locate the heading where "grayscale" might be hiding. I'm assuming that I can do this on PS 2...maybe it's not an option & that's why I can't find it?

Anyone else have PS 2 and would be so kind as to point me in the right direction?

Thanks for sharin.

Sue Irish
04-03-2004, 10:33 AM
Good Morning GenineAnn.

I have Photoshop 6.0 and in this version for grey scale you select Adjust on the toolbar. From the menu click Mode, from that menu click Greyscale. So for PS2 I think you may want to look for Mode to get you in the right area of commands.

In Paint Shop Pro 7.0 on the toolbar click Color, from the menu click Greyscale. Plus in this program there is a Negative Image command a few selections below the Greyscale command. Once you have it Greyscaled you can make a copy and reverse the values. The Greyscale helps me find the darks where the Negative Image helps establish if there are enough lights.

"Do-over" and games ... WetCanvas and the CP forum in particular have taught me a great deal and one of the most important aspects is that art for me is fun while learning. Or maybe it's that learning is fun ... ?

Susan

Let me know if you can't find those commands and I will double check in my programs.

gealflings
04-03-2004, 12:08 PM
Hi sue! :)

As usual, your colors are luscious and droolworthy *envy* - they look almost unreal and fragile. For some reason, I really like the ribbon the best. I'm a little nuts like that though.. :D

I'd agree with Judy about the background color - to me it almost looks dirty, like finger smudges, but that may just be my monitor or my own skewed perception.

Other than that, they look good enough to eat.. LOL

arlene
04-03-2004, 12:44 PM
Susan,

I love the way that you are so articulate in describing your work processes. I find it very helpful/useful for my own work.

Also, got a kick outta how you called this a "Do-Over". Reminds me of when us kids would be playing a game outside and miss the ball or jump rope whatever, we'd want a "Do-Over"...takes me back as I haven't heard that phrase in a long time.

The grayscale is something I'd like to utilize as well for just the reasons you have mentioned. I have Photoshop 2 and can't seem to locate the heading where "grayscale" might be hiding. I'm assuming that I can do this on PS 2...maybe it's not an option & that's why I can't find it?

Anyone else have PS 2 and would be so kind as to point me in the right direction?

Thanks for sharin.
in photoshop it's called desaturate.

arlene
04-03-2004, 12:47 PM
sue this is sweet looking. You have most of the lessons...matter of fact would you mind if I printed these out and used them for handouts to my classes?

One thing I did want was for you to understand how the master applied color, and how to achieve the same look as him/her but using cp's. This also is about how the master laid out their painting, the color choices ,etc.

so technically, this isn't a do over. but what you learned is what I'm continually trying to stress to others.

arlene
04-03-2004, 12:49 PM
also did you use gray's and/or black in this? if so, i'd like to see you do another version and not use any gray's or blacks. For reference go check out kimo's feather.

Wilma Jean
04-03-2004, 02:34 PM
I missed out on the first Master's Project, (I'm new to WC) just now getting to where I can navigate this site so how do I get started on one? I'm ready!! lol

Wilma Jean

Sue Irish
04-03-2004, 03:19 PM
Hey Sarah ...There were these wonderful pansies in my latest Vesey Seed Catalog that I just loved with that orange-rust-but maybe lavender coloring and very long stems. So they reminded me of the posies I used to pick for my Mom ... all flower and a little stem but not leaves. She'd put a ribbon around them and pin them to her blouse. Said that's what Grandma did, called it a Nose Gay. So, therefore the ribbon! Thanks!

Arlene, You are very welcome to use any idea you find here worthy of printing! I'm honored by this.

Ok., now returning to the Master's Project ... I do understand how the old Master's laid down color, used underpaintings as their value foundations, and how they applied the layering. I should note here that as I am not an Old Master my understanding comes from my schooling and training ... it is based on what is believed to have been the basic techniques. I know the process and have worked in it for many years.

It's do the rough sketches, do the value drawings, do them to the canvas in charcoals, block out the background then pull your painting out of that background with turp and sunflower oils. Establish a solid range of gray values for shape and shading. Head to the titanium for highlights and light grays then layer upon layer of thinned glazes to overlay your palette. Therefore your transparent/translucent colors lie upon the value shades creating a solid shaped colored object.

I think oils!

I don't yet think Colored Pencil ... INHO for me it's not the same. Colored Pencils seems more like Impressionism or Pointilism (sp) then Old Master's work. I find myself with five or six pencils in my right hand at any given moment while my left hand is applying another color ... even for something as simplistic and 'arts and craftsy' as these pansies, all just to create one small color area. Each apllication being made to merge with those colors surrounding it ... sort of Smudge Pointilism or Blurred Impressionism.

So maybe it has been the color application and the number of colors used that has grabbed my attention in all of this as the ideas of underpainting and value I already had. I think I said way-way-way back with the Pscycodelic Heron how in love with the color range of CPs I am as I have never worked with such an open and unrestricted palette range. Why use the basic five (cadmium red, cadmium yellow light, cobalt blue, van dkye brown, and titanium white - heaven's forbid you add something like verde green to your tile - that's not TRADITIONAL) when there are at least two companies that make these great thingies in 120 DIFFERENT colors and everyone encourages us to try them all. It's like visiting Baskin Robins with an all you can eat coupon!

Anyway ... I'll keep chewing on this part of the project ... there obviously is something here I am not grasping yet, that aludes me! I am determined to discover what is so apparent yet that I can not seem to see.

The only black in the painting is in the center of the forefacing pansie ... all the other shading is with grapes, blues, and rust.

Susan

PS ... now there's a tirade ... All I needed to say was "OK. I'll try again!"

Sue Irish
04-03-2004, 03:28 PM
Hi Wilma Jean!

The link to the Master's Project is in the Hall of Fame, under the third red heading marked Colored Pencil Projects. It is well worth doing!!! You will find the link to the HoF at the top of the Threads Page ... it's one of the top three listed.

Susan

arlene
04-03-2004, 03:32 PM
I missed out on the first Master's Project, (I'm new to WC) just now getting to where I can navigate this site so how do I get started on one? I'm ready!! lol

Wilma Jean

wilma you do great work...but I'd love for you to work up to the masters...have you tried the egg first? all the projects are listed in the index in the hall of fame, which is at the top of this forum

arlene
04-03-2004, 03:47 PM
Hey Sarah ...There were these wonderful pansies in my latest Vesey Seed Catalog that I just loved with that orange-rust-but maybe lavender coloring and very long stems. So they reminded me of the posies I used to pick for my Mom ... all flower and a little stem but not leaves. She'd put a ribbon around them and pin them to her blouse. Said that's what Grandma did, called it a Nose Gay. So, therefore the ribbon! Thanks!

Arlene, You are very welcome to use any idea you find here worthy of printing! I'm honored by this.

Ok., now returning to the Master's Project ... I do understand how the old Master's laid down color, used underpaintings as their value foundations, and how they applied the layering. I should note here that as I am not an Old Master my understanding comes from my schooling and training ... it is based on what is believed to have been the basic techniques. I know the process and have worked in it for many years.

It's do the rough sketches, do the value drawings, do them to the canvas in charcoals, block out the background then pull your painting out of that background with turp and sunflower oils. Establish a solid range of gray values for shape and shading. Head to the titanium for highlights and light grays then layer upon layer of thinned glazes to overlay your palette. Therefore your transparent/translucent colors lie upon the value shades creating a solid shaped colored object.

I think oils!

I don't yet think Colored Pencil ... INHO for me it's not the same. Colored Pencils seems more like Impressionism or Pointilism (sp) then Old Master's work. I find myself with five or six pencils in my right hand at any given moment while my left hand is applying another color ... even for something as simplistic and 'arts and craftsy' as these pansies, all just to create one small color area. Each apllication being made to merge with those colors surrounding it ... sort of Smudge Pointilism or Blurred Impressionism.

So maybe it has been the color application and the number of colors used that has grabbed my attention in all of this as the ideas of underpainting and value I already had. I think I said way-way-way back with the Pscycodelic Heron how in love with the color range of CPs I am as I have never worked with such an open and unrestricted palette range. Why use the basic five (cadmium red, cadmium yellow light, cobalt blue, van dkye brown, and titanium white - heaven's forbid you add something like verde green to your tile - that's not TRADITIONAL) when there are at least two companies that make these great thingies in 120 DIFFERENT colors and everyone encourages us to try them all. It's like visiting Baskin Robins with an all you can eat coupon!

Anyway ... I'll keep chewing on this part of the project ... there obviously is something here I am not grasping yet, that aludes me! I am determined to discover what is so apparent yet that I can not seem to see.

The only black in the painting is in the center of the forefacing pansie ... all the other shading is with grapes, blues, and rust.

Susan

PS ... now there's a tirade ... All I needed to say was "OK. I'll try again!"

glad you used no grays or blacks...they're almost unnecessary colors.

LOL...ok yes, we have infinite possible colors to use and to blend, but starting with a tonal underpainting, and "glazing" layer after layer of color to build up your color. Only we call it layering.

sue let me say that i've modified the techniques for my paintings...when time stopped is a prime example. There I started with an underpainting...granted not in brown's or grays, and then built color like the masters did, by starting with my dark colors first, and ending with my lightest colors...and I actually lay my lightest colors on heavier...just like the masters.
When Time Stopped (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166467&highlight=time+stopped)

Sue Irish
04-03-2004, 04:29 PM
"Ah", said the blind man, "I see, I see".

Right now I am think that I am thinking that I am working light to dark because of those so very gentle light application layers at the beginning. Perhaps I am confusing light application with light tonal values ... and as the underpainting is usually to establish the darker shading values ... perhaps this is part of the non-committment that Judy is having with the background ... So my confusion may be between light pressure applications and labeling these as light valued tones went they are not and confusing hue, pressure, and tones .... perhaps I think I will go and chew on this awhile ...

I am very confused at this moment so I know that what you are saying is making me think through all of this with a new attitude.

(See the light bulbs over my head slowly brightening)

Thanks, Arlene!

Susan

Sue Irish
04-03-2004, 05:00 PM
OK ... I think maybe I've got something here ... See me jumping up and down in the back of the room waving my hand to answer the question.

When I think oil painting I think tonal values created with Van Dyke and Titanium, I think hues with the Cadmium red, yellow, and cobalt blue. I see and treat these as separate things. I separate the tonal values from the hues. And I lay hues over tones.

But that's not true with colored pencils is it?

The way they created those 120 delicious flavors of CPs is by mixing. The Indigo blue is indigo because they have added blacks to darken the color. It's not a pure color as say Ultramarine Blue is in oils. So, therefore, each and every colored pencil carries not only hue but tonal value .... I DON'T have a jar full of 120 colors I have a jar full of 120 tonal values that have hue!!!!

DUH! SUSAN!

So indigo is not only the color hue for an area it's also the tonal value ....

(Am I even close?)

Susan

arlene
04-03-2004, 05:47 PM
You over analyze but yes you're getting it. but you also have hues. some colors are really pure hues...canary yellow for example...or true green or true blue.

Wilma Jean
04-03-2004, 07:31 PM
Ok, I signed up for the egg. Since I'm new need to have some things clarified. A project such as this, "D0-Over on Master's Part Two Project" and other projects, is by invitation only from the Moderator?

Wilma Jean

arlene
04-03-2004, 07:48 PM
nope...anyone can join at any time.

wet
04-03-2004, 07:53 PM
Wilma no no! Just jump in! I did the masters project (well the first part still need to do the second part) but I didn't know enough to sign up so my thread is kinda floating around out there somewhere. :D But it's about what you can learn from it. Just click on the project link that Arlene provided when she announced the project. Hope to see what you can do. Sue keep thinking because I think you have almost figured it out for ME! I was reading thinking *oh wow....really....aha!* I had never thought of it that way before! Maybe this is why I have always been so adverse to working dark to light....was looking at the whole thing wrong. Thanks for posting this you can put your thoughts into words so nicely it helps alot. Beautiful pansies! Wanda

GenineAnn
04-03-2004, 08:29 PM
Susan, just realized that I never actually commented on your flowers. They're just beautiful and very vibrant in color.

Not sure I'm understanding all this with regard to tonal values and hues but I am trying to obsorb it all. I think it will require a re-reading before I can get it through my thick head. :)

Did manage to find the grayscale so thank you and to Arlene as well.

Sue Irish
04-03-2004, 08:47 PM
Wilma ... I think you will find the projects listed for this forum fun as well as informative. I'll watch for your posting on the Ova project!

Wanda ... I AM still thinking, chewing, and rearranging this new idea. For me the idea of a jar full of tonal values with hues and, of course, those few pure hues, has had me rethinking all evening about how to approach a CP painting. I think that when I get to CP paint again I'll be going at it with a totally different concept.

GenineAnn ... I've been around the forum for six months now and I am just starting to 'get' a little of this stuff :p

Susan

Wilma Jean
04-03-2004, 09:15 PM
No, no just trying to find out how things work here. I value Arlene's judgement, got acquainted with her on AP. And since she knows I'm "burnishing queen" it was a wise request. lol

Wilma Jean

Sue Irish
04-04-2004, 06:51 AM
Arlene, you're right, I am "over anaylizing this" but I think for me I need to ...

How I think about something effects how I take action and how I define a word effects what type of action I take.

So if I may I will try to define these Colored Pencil words:

Tonal Value - the amount of light that a surface recieves: areas in direct line to a light source recieve more light so are palers in tonal value, areas that receive some difuse light are mid tones, and areas the receive little or no light are dark tones. Tonal Value establishes the form and shape of an object and it's position in relationship to other objects.

Hue - pure color with no additions of white, black, or brown. Hue is the surface color of an object, it does not define shape only color. A primary color that can be changed by combinating it with colors.

Tonal Value = Gray Scale Tones = shadows and highlights = white, black, browns, and grays
Hue = Color = Pure red, yellow, and blue

Colored Pencils comes in so many different colors because for many white, black, or brown have been added to the pure color. Example: #1034 Goldenrod (Prismacolor) is a mix of cadmium yellow hue AND white AND umber .... it is a tonal value of pure yellow.

So in thinking of these as Colored Pencils I have been thinking of them as pure hue. Some pencils are pure hue but many are not. This means for me that when I create the underpainting to establish the shadows and highlights, the shape of the elements, my choice of pencils is widened from a 'limited pallette range' of grays and browns to a new selection of 'colors': blue grays, mustard yellows, rust reds, pumpkin oranges, muddy purples.

Which is why I can watch someone post a green-blue horse portrait here on the forum and watch that horse becomes a beautiful chestnut or bay color with great shadowing and shape ... they are not just using complimentary colors (green and red) to create brown colors in the horse's face, they are also using these colors as tonal values. So all along I have been thinking that they were JUST making browns ... but they aren't ... they are establishing the shadow and highlights using the gray contained in their choice of colors. Now I understand why you can start by paint sunny side up eggs purple-red!!! I am THINKING red-purple equals golden orange eggs that have rounded yolks!

It also means that once that underpainting is established the tonal value of any individual area will be changed by the choice of overlay colors. If I want an area in deep shadow I can establish that with a dark tone (shadow) pencil color. But when I go to add the actual hue (color) of that element I also need to consider the tonal value of the hue pencil.

So laying a pale pink over a deep blue-purple cancels each other out when it comes to gray scale. Because what I have done is added a layering of the white contained in the pale pink thus lightening the blue-purple value ..........

Which means for me I need to add something to my original list of learning:

I need to choose both my colors that will be used to establish the "gray scale" underpainting AND the overlay 'hue' colors BEFORE I ever touch a pencil to the paper. That way I can check-compare the tonal value of the underpainting to the overlay, use a wider range of colors for the underpainting, and not end up canceling out either part of the work because of differing values between the two. This is not a 'fly by the seat of your pants' media ... planning your color and value combinations is everything!

Maybe for those that have used Colored Pencils for a long time already know all of this, maybe this is something that comes naturally to you ... but for me ... this one is a real eye opener!!!

So I will end this thinking out loud with the definition Colored Pencils is pencils that contain hue mixed with tonal values of gray. They aren't colored=hue=primary=pure pencils!

Thank you, thankyou-thankyou-thankyou! Susan

OK ... brain storm here ... that's why you wanted the color chart created FIRST in the Master's Project!! Duh!!!!

Sue Irish
04-04-2004, 06:56 AM
What is it they say about Old Dogs and New Tricks ... they left out how long it takes that dog to learn!

Out of here and back to work!

Susan

arlene
04-04-2004, 11:28 AM
So if I may I will try to define these Colored Pencil words:

Tonal Value - the amount of light that a surface recieves: areas in direct line to a light source recieve more light so are palers in tonal value, areas that receive some difuse light are mid tones, and areas the receive little or no light are dark tones. Tonal Value establishes the form and shape of an object and it's position in relationship to other objects.

Exactly

Hue - pure color with no additions of white, black, or brown. Hue is the surface color of an object, it does not define shape only color. A primary color that can be changed by combinating it with colors.

Brown is just the hue with it's complement added.

So all along I have been thinking that they were JUST making browns ... but they aren't ... they are establishing the shadow and highlights using the gray contained in their choice of colors. Now I understand why you can start by paint sunny side up eggs purple-red!!! I am THINKING red-purple equals golden orange eggs that have rounded yolks!

By Jove, I think she's got it! (starts to break out in song...oops, sorry)

So laying a pale pink over a deep blue-purple cancels each other out when it comes to gray scale. Because what I have done is added a layering of the white contained in the pale pink thus lightening the blue-purple value ..........

The complement of red is green so I wouldn't be adding to a deep blue purple, but a shade of green. After all how does one make pink?

need to choose both my colors that will be used to establish the "gray scale" underpainting AND the overlay 'hue' colors BEFORE I ever touch a pencil to the paper.

You're over analyzing again. It's simple for your tonal painting, pull out black grape, black cherry, indigo, dark green, celedon green, dahlia purple, violet, tuscan red, grayed lavender, and slate gray. Those are the only colors you'll need. Oh ok, you can use a pumpkin orange under lighter blues, or a burnt ochre, but I rarely do.

Black grape goes under greens and work well under purples and some blues.
Black cherry the same...it's a redder color then the grape. Tuscan Red works under greens.
Indigo works under browns, and in the darkest areas of oranges. For midtones and lighter areas I use slate gray.
Dark green works under reds and darker pinks. If you need to tone a lighter pink use the celedon green.
Dahlia Purple, Violet, and Grayed Lavender work under yellows. If you want a cooler yellow, use the violet. If you want a warmer yellow, use the Dahlia Purple.

OK ... brain storm here ... that's why you wanted the color chart created FIRST in the Master's Project!! Duh!!!!

Sue, go do the complement project!

pinkrybns
04-04-2004, 11:54 AM
Ditto everything Arlene just said

And may I suggest this Sue ( and do not take this in a derogatory way, cuzzzzzzz it's meant to help you :) ):

Empty your brain out, first.
Approach CP with a clean slate....open your mind and your eyes. Erase alot of what you understand about graphite & oils. Why do I say that?
Because, it is not Oils, it is not Graphite; it is Colored Pencil.
It's a new medium for you, and it has it's own special properties, so let them shine, let the special properties of CP do what they will for you.
Don't fight the medium, don't try to make it something it's not. I sense sometimes in your posts, that the thought process from what you do know in oils and graphite is working against you. :(

Love those colored pencils...even make the color wheel Arlene suggests. Pull out the all the warm colors, pull out all the cool colors - find the complements.....look at them! You don't even have to put them on paper! ( You should but...lol) That may seem silly after all these years and your experience, but you'll learn to understand and see those CP for what they are and what they will and will not do.

You cetainly can draw and do understand color...there's no question about that, but you're fighting with this medium......relax and let it do it's own thing. And lighten up on the analytical approach...lol unless you like those headaches. ;)

I think you do understand a whole lot more than you actually think you do. Yes, the basics of graphite work or oil work are similar or sometimes the same (i.e., composition, tones, lines, values etc.) ..but CP is it's own medium it simply works differently.....Ok I'm repeating myself, so I'll stop.

Go play! :)

Judy

wet
04-04-2004, 02:12 PM
I am so glad you guys posted this. I don't know why we didn't have more color instruction in hs. Some things I paint work and others don't now I think I understand why. You have no idea how frustrating it is to be so hit and miss and have no clue why. Thanks!! wanda

pinkrybns
04-04-2004, 02:35 PM
I am so glad you guys posted this. I don't know why we didn't have more color instruction in hs. Some things I paint work and others don't now I think I understand why. You have no idea how frustrating it is to be so hit and miss and have no clue why. Thanks!! wanda

Wanda, in defense of the many wonderful high-school art teachers past & present (cuzzzzz I know there were & are many) there is just so much they can teach in an overview sort of situation such as a high-school art class - they had no time to do in depth color theory. So they do/did their best with the basics of color theory. In my brief stint as a Junior High art teacher ( :eek: ) I recall most of my time was taken up with keeping the class from rioting......lol

OK, so you or someone else may not have had a wonderful hs teacher, or you may not have gone further like some of us "art geeks" and did the degree thing...but, that only means it's up to you now to do the discovering, reading, researching and learning.....right? :) ( I know you know this too :) )And don't think for a minute that us "art geeks" have it all under our belts either ( Ok, I'm only speaking for myself, of course...arlene might hit me.....LOL)...we're still learning too.

:)
Judy
Edit to add: I seem to have on my soft coaching/counselor hat today......rofl

Sue Irish
04-04-2004, 02:53 PM
Ditto everything Arlene just said
..but CP is it's own medium it simply works differently.....Ok I'm repeating myself, so I'll stop.

Judy

That is exactly what I think I have been doing, Judy. I couldn't quite get it out of my mouth and on to the postings here ... I think I have been trying to hammer this square peg called Colored Pencils into that round hole marked Oils. Then it got sort of stuck because obiviously it just didn't fit. So all of this, I think, is me trying to wiggle that round peg out and let it have it's own place!

There's this old story about the man that walks down the road every morning. And every morning he comes to the pothole in the road. And every morning he steps in that pot hole and stumbles ... After about ten thousand stumbles he finally comes to think, "You know when I walk down that road I fall in that pothole." So the next morning he walks down the road, comes to the pot hole, takes three steps to the left and walks past it .... But he couldn't walk past it until he had the "You know" thought!

Maybe, next time I'll take three steps to the left and go down the road marked COLORED PENCILS and see where it might take me ... :p

Arlene, two more weeks of work and I will try the Complimentary Project. As much as I have learned from the Master's Project I think could be another eye opener. Although I wonder if the forum can stand me going through another learning lesson growth spurt :evil:

Thank you for the listing of grisalle colors, I will also play (see this in big bold letters) with those as soon as I come up for air.

Wanda, I expect that you have noticed I love stuff like color theory and composition theory. Still there are many times that I feel like I am stumbling around in the dark. I agree with the idea of more "art talk" around the forum ... I also have noticed, because like everyone else I've poked around the other forums here at WetCanvas, this is the forum to be on for such ideas. I think that this forum is soooo open to talking, sharing, and even a little hot debating about our passion about art and what ideas, techniques, and teachings we have to share! Perhaps, you just need to ask the question!

Back to the grind stone ... thank you, Arlene, Judy, and Wanda for taking the time to help me chew this one up to a managable and usable idea!

Susan

GenineAnn
04-04-2004, 03:19 PM
Wow, this is such a great thread full of info on color theory for the newbie. Never had any here so I have all my pencils out trying to follow all of this & I'm gettin some of it...I think.

Some of this I find I already did and never knew why...just worked I guess. Now I can understand it & hopefully apply it so there will be less hit or miss type of applications of color.

Thanks for all the indepth thought behind the color theory. Can't speak for the others but I never get tired of this stuff! :)

I'm off to find some paper and try to apply this to a colorwheel.

Meisie
04-05-2004, 04:26 AM
Another fascinating thread! I find it most intriguing (sp?) to have what I 'sense' put into words!
Thanks for all the info folks!

Meisie

Algarbi
04-05-2004, 04:42 AM
Sue

it is a big inspiration for me to see such wonderful artwork. Congratulations! :clap:

bearded bob
04-05-2004, 06:03 AM
Anyone else rated this thread yet? Thanks a lot Sue and Arlene for sharing all that. Now all I gotta do is understand it!

Sue Irish
04-05-2004, 07:11 AM
Good Morning GenineAnn, Meisie, Algarbi, and Bob!

Thanks for the encouragement.

Quoting Myself: So laying a pale pink over a deep blue-purple cancels each other out when it comes to gray scale. Because what I have done is added a layering of the white contained in the pale pink thus lightening the blue-purple value ..........

Here's a sample of where I was fighting the tonal values of the pink to the dark purples. In the early layers I had established a dark blue gray for my shading tonal values, but when I went to add the lavendars and pinks I realized that I was canceling out my earlier work. Refering back to my square peg and round hole thinking, with oils I could have just glazed the petals with extremely thinned lavendar and it would have worked great.

So ... having tried adding a layer of pinks over the darkest areas of shading I began to realize 'this isn't working' and began to realize I had problems ... that something was happening between my overlays in value and my underpainting.

Susan

PS ... Bob, IMHO ... Having seen your work I think you are one of those that already know this ... even if you don't know you know it ... but your value work clearly and beautifully shows in your drawings.

arlene
04-05-2004, 10:26 AM
laying pink over blue doesn't cancel it out...

go back to your color wheel!

if you mix red and blue you get..........................violet

In this case if you put pink over blue you get lavender or a lighter violet.

if you're looking to do shadows, you don't put pink over blue...you put pink over a lighter green like the celedon i suggested.

arlene
04-05-2004, 10:32 AM
folks let me clarify...in the methods i use, you put green underneath.

wet
04-05-2004, 11:11 AM
Judy I had a good art teacher but I think he was better at showing than telling. :D I also agree most of his time was taken up in babysetting. Also in his defense he probably did take on this subject but I have always had the mind set of *I don't need to read the instructions* and just dive in. On this thread I quess it was just the way it was expressed that made a light bulb go off!
Sue I have noticed alot more discussions in this forum thats why I like it so much. But you are giving me to much credit and believe I know what questions to ask! :D ;) THATS my problem.......have gone too long with the method of *looks right to me!* I think that is why I don't make constructive suggestions on alot others work cuz I'm too unsure. Unless it is pointed out then I can see it. I haven't rated this thread either I keep forgetting to do that! Will do it now. :D wanda

Sue Irish
04-05-2004, 11:39 AM
folks let me clarify...in the methods i use, you put green underneath.

ARLENE, YES, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!

Which is why I ended up with purple morning glories instead of pink morning glories. Had I started with a green tone, which I did not, I would have ended up with pink highlights and brownish pink shading instead of lavendar with blue black shading. What I had wanted originally was pink blended into medium lavendars, trying to avoid the browns if possible ... so the purple blue underwork. For florals brown tones imply dying or drying petals so this was not the color I wanted in the shaded areas.

I realize that what I am trying to say is confusing because I am having so much problem saying it correctly ... Leave the color out for a moment ...

I put a pale color over a darker color thinking that the color had NO WHITE PIGMENT in it. The white pigment in that paler color reduced the dark tonal value of the darker color. White over black makes gray. The pink-peach pencils I chose (1013 Peche Deco, 927 Peche Clair, and 1001 Rose Salmon) are not pure hues but have white added. My darker tone areas were becoming medium toned ... and I realize now because of the white contained in the particular pinks I chose.

When that happened I stopped, went to different pencils (929 Rose, 1038 Rose Neon, and 993 Rose Vif) to correct for the loss of darkness. These three pencils are nearer to pure hues. It did correct the work back to where I wanted the tones. These three pencils are much nearer to pure hue so there was no more lose of value. The medium pencils also ended up changing the final color of the morning glories.

At the time I knew that this change worked in keeping my value ... but ... did not figure out why it worked until posting here! Nor had I realized how to control that for the next one.

I like purple morning glories but really wanted pink, next time I will know how to start them toward pink and KEEP them pink. I will be controlling the colors not the colors controlling me.

So, after all of this, I will think first next time to remember:
1. Compliments under hues as green under pinks and reds
2. Be ready to combinsate for the amount of white or black each pencil contains.

arlene
04-05-2004, 11:43 AM
after you put down the green you can put down a light layer of blue on top to turn it more to the lavenders. heck in When time stopped (accurate color is now on my website!) i used green first and indigo second for the same reason... of course you'd use a lighter blue.

Sue Irish
04-05-2004, 11:43 AM
Sue I have noticed alot more discussions in this forum thats why I like it so much. But you are giving me to much credit and believe I know what questions to ask! :D ;) THATS my problem.......have gone too long with the method of *looks right to me!* I think that is why I don't make constructive suggestions on alot others work cuz I'm too unsure. Unless it is pointed out then I can see it. I haven't rated this thread either I keep forgetting to do that! Will do it now. :D wanda

Wanda, Now there is a real truth. It has only taken me three pages and a couple of kazillion words to figure out what I was trying to say and what was going on. Isn't it odd how sometimes you have gotten the answer to finally be able to formulate the question it went with. :p

Susan

arlene
04-05-2004, 11:44 AM
here's my rose where i used greens underneath. on top of my underpainting i first added some dahlia purple and grayed lavender into the pink areas also.

Sue Irish
04-05-2004, 11:45 AM
after you put down the green you can put down a light layer of blue on top to turn it more to the lavenders. heck in When time stopped (accurate color is now on my website!) i used green first and indigo second for the same reason... of course you'd use a lighter blue.

Now Arlene! That's unfair to the rest of us ... You being so absolutely right TWICE on one morning! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Susan

Sue Irish
04-05-2004, 11:49 AM
OK Arlene, for two goodies in one morning you just got my Mentors vote for the day!

Susan

arlene
04-05-2004, 11:50 AM
So, after all of this, I will think first next time to remember:
1. Compliments under hues as green under pinks and reds
2. Be ready to combinsate for the amount of white or black each pencil contains.

before the spelling police comes and gets you, it's spelled complement. when you praise someone you give a compliment. ;)

as for number two...that's why I work dark to light...then you don't have to compensate.

pinkrybns
04-05-2004, 12:09 PM
before the spelling police comes and gets you

:D :D :D :evil:
LOL hmm wonder who that could be...hahahaha

GenineAnn
04-05-2004, 12:24 PM
Ok, so it sounds like we really need to know and understand our color wheels. I have one but it's very basic. Also have 120 different colored pencils.

Some of these colors are very mixed, if you know what I mean. For example, there are at least 12 different blues in this set. Would burnt sienna or black cherry then be the complement for all of these blues? Doesn't sound right as some of these blues are more purple or more gray looking than the others.

Do you need to make a colorwheel of all 120 colors to know what the complement of each color is or am I making this more complicated than it needs to be?

Sue Irish
04-05-2004, 01:22 PM
I am at the cusp of a moderate epiphany on the manifestation of tonal value alternations generated when dark valued colored pencils are influenced by an application of colored pencils formulated to contain a high white-gray content which has manifested in a new interpretation of their judicious and prudent usage in this media and you are PICKING ON MY SPELLIGN! :evil:

Susan

Sue Irish
04-05-2004, 01:26 PM
Do you need to make a colorwheel of all 120 colors to know what the complement of each color is or am I making this more complicated than it needs to be?

Oh Jezzz GenineAnn, I hope not!

It would seems better to me to just do the chart for the major or main colors that you would be using. Remember that your undercolor work is done in just a few limited colors. Those are applied in layers with lighter or less layers where you want a medium gray and more layers where you want a darker gray value. So as Arlene is suggesting here one greens will work wonderfully as the complement to a wide variety of reds, creating shading hues for all of them. Did that make any sense?

Susan

arlene
04-05-2004, 01:27 PM
Ok, so it sounds like we really need to know and understand our color wheels. I have one but it's very basic. Also have 120 different colored pencils.
Do you need to make a colorwheel of all 120 colors to know what the complement of each color is or am I making this more complicated than it needs to be?

make a color wheel with 12 colors...primary, secondary, and tertiary. (and if you don't know what those words mean, get to work researching!)

on an inner layer plut the complement to the color above, and on a second inner layer put white on top.

arlene
04-05-2004, 01:28 PM
I am at the cusp of a moderate epiphany on the manifestation of tonal value alternations generated when dark valued colored pencils are influenced by an application of colored pencils formulated to contain a high white-gray content which has manifested in a new interpretation of their judicious and prudent usage in this media and you are PICKING ON MY SPELLIGN! :evil:

Susan

Sue you missed your calling. You should have been a lawyer writing up contracts.!

GenineAnn
04-05-2004, 01:37 PM
ROFL, Susan sure did miss her calling!! My head exploded on that one! Brains are all over my keyboard.

Yes, this makes sense although I now have to make another colorwheel but hey, it's only time right??!!!!

Thanks again & I want whatever Susan is drinking!

bearded bob
04-05-2004, 02:08 PM
Sue thanks for the kind words but I am maybe like Wanda, a very intuitive worker. thats a good way of saying I don't know what the heck I am doing half the time! I just do something, if it looks OK, great, if not I do something else! What this thread has done has been to engage brain and give me some scientific reasons for what I do/don't do - so thanks again for all the explanations!

Sue Irish
04-05-2004, 03:15 PM
GenineAnn ... I have an Endust Electronic wipie if you need one for the mess I left on your keyboard ...

Bob ... thanks!

Arlene ... Do you think I could use 'that one' for the title for my Master's Thesis?

Susan

sunnyday54
04-05-2004, 03:21 PM
Many thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread. I'm with the "intuitive" bunch - like Bob said - if it works it works, if not, do another! To see the analysis going on here has shown me that I need to "really think" when I am painting. I am self-taught, and this thread heas been a major leap forward in my education! :eek:

Lynda

arlene
04-05-2004, 03:50 PM
i've repeated it so many times i feel like a broken record but will once more.

If you learn the "rules" and proper techniques when you start, it eventually becomes intuitive and correct. you won't have all those misses.

Those rules include techniques in your medium, color theory and composition!

now you know why the masters were only allowed to mix paint the first year (it's amaziing what you can learn just doing that), were allowed to draw in charcoal the second year (and more if they needed it) were finally allowed to practice with paint, and their own compositions and learning of the "rules", then were allowed to paint on the master's canvas, and finally were allowed to work on their own?

cause it's a learning progression...you learn by observing and trying, having good mentors, and practicing! everyday if you can.

Meisie
04-05-2004, 07:02 PM
It isn't often I laugh out loud at a computer screen.....but first Sue amused me with some fancy footwork in the linguistics department....and Arlene advises me to 'plut' the compliments on the color wheel...?...well that was where I lost it!
You've made my day! Not only is my notebook getting full, I'm having a wonderful time learning!!!

Meisie

arlene
04-05-2004, 10:12 PM
It isn't often I laugh out loud at a computer screen.....but first Sue amused me with some fancy footwork in the linguistics department....and Arlene advises me to 'plut' the compliments on the color wheel...?...well that was where I lost it!
You've made my day! Not only is my notebook getting full, I'm having a wonderful time learning!!!

Meisie

no i didn't say that! I said
plut the complements on the color wheel.

sheeeeesh and after i gave a whole lesson on compliment vs. complement...which the spelling police had made sure i had learned.

gealflings
04-05-2004, 10:23 PM
no i didn't say that! I said


sheeeeesh and after i gave a whole lesson on compliment vs. complement...which the spelling police had made sure i had learned.

LOL You did say "Plut" though, which is what meisie was laughing about, I think. Isn't that 'fart' in swedish? :evil:

arlene
04-05-2004, 10:41 PM
i didn't deny saying plut...go read my response again...and if it does mean that...i've said worse! :D

gealflings
04-05-2004, 11:52 PM
I did read it :) I was just messing around...

Sue Irish
04-06-2004, 07:08 AM
i've repeated it so many times i feel like a broken record but will once more.

If you learn the "rules" and proper techniques when you start, it eventually becomes intuitive and correct. you won't have all those misses.

I think that many times many of us feel like our words and our sharings go out into the ether and into the nothingness of cyberspace. I just want to say to everyone ... for me, that's not true. I am listening. I am trying very hard to learn. Even if your posting was "I don't know what's going on here either" ... at least I didn't feel so alone in not understanding all of this, someone else said they were having difficulties too.

Because you shared the last two days on this thread I have a whole new way of thinking about this media and it's potentials. I thank you!

I have even started my homework ...

Again, thank you. Your words, ideas, and willingness to share them with others does make a greater impact than you may ever know.

Susan

pinkrybns
04-06-2004, 07:38 AM
On these colored spheres, are you working light to dark or dark to light?

Sue Irish
04-06-2004, 07:46 AM
Dark to light as Arlene suggested!

Did the black grape first, then the darkest of hues through the lightest, then added some white in the highlight spot.

Odd, I don't think color chart squares as well as I think shading ... therefore the sphere work. Get to see it in action that way.

Susan

criquette
04-06-2004, 08:24 AM
Wow!!!!!!! This was the first thread I read when I got up this morning and I am all tuckered out already from all the information I HOPE I am soaking up into this old brain of mine. I always regretted not being able to go to Art school or take art classes but maybe never having done oils or watercolors,etc. will make it easier to grasp color pencil painting .....you know, the clean slate thing. :D Sue, your Morning Glorys are beautiful even if they aren't the color you wanted. Thanks to everyone that contributes to the forums so that we Newbies can learn........like our own private college....with an abundance of great teachers. :clap:

pinkrybns
04-06-2004, 09:30 AM
Dark to light as Arlene suggested!

Did the black grape first, then the darkest of hues through the lightest, then added some white in the highlight spot.

Odd, I don't think color chart squares as well as I think shading ... therefore the sphere work. Get to see it in action that way.

Susan

I thought it was dark to light (and good that you did that too! :) ), but the order of the circles under the spheres (as I preceived them) looked as though you were working light to dark ( I was reading them top to bottom, with the white being the first layer... see what I mean?)

It's not odd at all Sue! As is often the case, a simple form like the sphere or a cube will show you more of how the color application makes the form. I always test color combinations by filling in oval shapes to get the gradations that shape the form and to figure out which colors to use for the underpainting complements...oops I am trying to make myself understood here, hope I am...lol

Sue Irish
04-06-2004, 09:45 AM
Judy,

Good point. Went I start the next undercolor pencil chart tonight I will reverse the order, makes much more sense for later when I need to refer back to them.


OMG ... you were making yourself understood ... be still my heart!

Susan

arlene
04-06-2004, 09:48 AM
now do spheres where you put the complement under them to shade.

Sue Irish
04-06-2004, 09:52 AM
Whoa, whoa, whoa WOMAN!

I still have tuscan red, dahila purple, celadon green, indigo blue, and a bunch others to work through first. I counted ten different colored pencils you suggested back on page four or five. I'll add complements to my list ... but, please, one homework assignment at a time!

Susan

wet
04-06-2004, 10:45 AM
The first piece I painted that I was happy with and thought *ok why is this one so much better* so I took it to a critique to find out what I had done right. :rolleyes: The art instructor said it was because I painted dark to light, did not use black or white, and gobs of layers. :D That is bad when you have to ask someone why something works and you created it!! Speaking of color my daughter sees numbers in color. Wonder what that means? :confused: Wilma you did a great job on the egg project glad you posted it. Is there a spelling police? The fashion police are always threatening me now this! ;) wanda

Sue Irish
04-06-2004, 11:06 AM
That is bad when you have to ask someone why something works and you created it!! wanda

Wanda,

No, It's not bad.

You had the desire to learn, you had the courage to ask, you wanted to understand and grow in your art. That can not be considered bad. So you took your work to someone who might have the answer, you took action to find the answers you wanted to know, then you put them to work in your art. More action on your part.

What is bad ... or maybe sad ... is when you want to ask and don't because someone might look at you like you're stupid or something. So you stay quiet and stumble around in the dark doing the same things over and over again never knowing why.

Chances are if you have a question, no matter how simple or basic it is, so does a dozen or two other readers and posters to this forum. So when you do ask something like "why does this work here and why didn't it work over there?" there are an estimated 23 others saying "Yeh... tell me too!"

The only questions that receive no answer are those that are never asked.

Susan

Since I am editing this .... Do you know how stupid I felt when I realized that pale pencils have white added and I had a full jar of 120 pencils staring me right in the face all along that were telling me that ... I just didn't see what was in front of my nose!

Wilma Jean
04-06-2004, 11:17 AM
I'll have to hunt up the "made" thread, sry if it wasn't suppose to be posted here. Is there information somewhere on how to make these underlayer charts etc? Here's what I did a long time ago to group my cp's. Cut the strips the same width as the clear postal tape and when finished put the tape strips over front and back to keep them clean.

Wilma

wet
04-06-2004, 11:17 AM
True, true, true. I hadn't thought of it that way. Sometimes the hardest things to see are right under our nose. wanda

Sue Irish
04-06-2004, 11:54 AM
I'll have to hunt up the "made" thread, sry if it wasn't suppose to be posted here. Is there information somewhere on how to make these underlayer charts etc? Here's what I did a long time ago to group my cp's. Cut the strips the same width as the clear postal tape and when finished put the tape strips over front and back to keep them clean.

Wilma

Wilma Jean,

I haven't seen a thread on "How to make a color chart" yet. If there is one it would be in the Hall of Fame I expect. Arlene gave instructions for us a couple pages back on this thread about the underlayer chart. Try pages 4 and 5. Her suggestions have both the grisalle (sp) colors listed and then suggestions for what colors they are used under. Those are the instructions I used last night to start my charts.

In the mean time go ahead and post what you have on this thread since everyone of us seems to be doing that homework.

Susan

OOOPS ... I think you're suppost to post your sample of the egg on the Ova Projcet thread ... someone will correct me if I'm wrong. In the mean time I am very delighted that you added it here. Again, it is a great sample of what we have been talking about!!!!!

Meisie
04-06-2004, 12:53 PM
no i didn't say that! I said


sheeeeesh and after i gave a whole lesson on compliment vs. complement...which the spelling police had made sure i had learned.

Plutting compliments! :D:D:D
too funny! touche! now if only I can get the ` to sit on the 'e' sigh.....

It is good to have you 'back' Arlene......

Meisie

gemmag
04-06-2004, 01:14 PM
Whew,,,,,, a lot of reading here but very informative!!
Gemma

Zoo
04-06-2004, 02:04 PM
I would like to say thank you for all of this valuable information. I too am one of the "self-taught" folks. For me that means I have a number of bad habits which I am now trying to break. I am spending more time on composition and forcing myself to "actively" consider color, value and whatever else I have probably ignored in the past. Like some of the others...for me sometimes a painting worked and sometimes it didn't and I wouldn't be able to figure out why. It is all starting to make sense to me now though.

Thanks again for starting this great thread.

Zoo

GenineAnn
04-06-2004, 06:00 PM
Ok, so I did my new colorwheel and I'm "plutting" down my white. If I understand this correctly, I'm to plut (I kinda like that word) down the complementary colors again on the next inside ring & plut the white on top of that? Is this correct?

Once I'm done with that, is it off to the spheres using the dark to light fashion?

Thanks

arlene
04-06-2004, 06:22 PM
Ok, so I did my new colorwheel and I'm "plutting" down my white. If I understand this correctly, I'm to plut (I kinda like that word) down the complementary colors again on the next inside ring & plut the white on top of that? Is this correct?

Once I'm done with that, is it off to the spheres using the dark to light fashion?

Thanks

no on the second ring you put the same color as on the top ring...then you put the color that's opposite on the color wheel on top of that.

your third ring, you put the same color as the top ring, then put white on top of that...you'll have three rings...

outer is pure color
2nd is complements
3rd is tints.

GenineAnn
04-06-2004, 06:59 PM
Okay, that's clearer. I knew I was doin it wrong.

Sue Irish
04-06-2004, 08:18 PM
Somehow I seem to be working backwards with the spheres first and the color wheel for complements coming soon ... now how did that one happen?

On the Indigo Blue and Slate Gray ... I don't have slate gray so I used Periwinkle and think it did fairly well.

Susan

arlene
04-06-2004, 11:57 PM
periwinkle has alot of chroma in it...slate gray is mostly gray. they're totally different...plus slate gray is greener.

Sue Irish
04-07-2004, 03:13 AM
OK ... so I will count that one toward one of my complement combinations as I used it with the truer oranges not the rust or browns as the Periwinkle #1025 is in the same value range as the Pale Vermillion :D

Susan

arlene
04-07-2004, 12:00 PM
again with pale vermillion for complements i'd use a blue/green color.

Sue Irish
04-07-2004, 08:22 PM
Got the complement chart done. The first image is what I understood the chart layout to be from Arlene's suggestions. The second is my attempt at the chart.

Two notes: The pencil arrows inside my chart show where I misplaced two colors, these should have been reversed. Second I added an outside ring. Once the chart was completed with the three rings I noted I was laying the complement OVER the color on the second ring. As this chart was designed to help understand that complements can be used as the underpainting color to create shading this color laying was in reverse of how it would be used on a drawing. So by adding the outside ring I was able to use the same two complementary colors but lay the complement down first with the color as the top layer.

Also from doing this I note the number of colors that would not 'work' for this particular chart. As I was using as pure a color (hue = chroma) as possible both the pale value pencils and dark value pencils are not represented. I may at some time go back and repeat this chart, one with only pale values and a second with only dark values.

Susan

Edit: Ok ... it ate my chart!!!! Had to try again. So image one is my chart, image two is Arlene's suggestions. AHHH!

arlene
04-08-2004, 12:32 AM
Sue I have to be honest I don't have a clue what you did here. I'm putting together a color wheel now to show you...folks who want to make one themselves, please wait till i post mine tomorrow...

sue you went too far on this also...i said 12 colors...forget the colors for complements i gave you for this color wheel...we don't use them!

arlene
04-08-2004, 12:52 AM
ok i understand you now...but there's one problem with what you did on the outer layer...

it's unnecessary because you are putting the complement under the color you're using...it's just on the opposite side of the color wheel...that's why on one side you have green under red, and then on the other side you have red under green.