View Full Version : Master of the Month #16 - April 2005 (Rembrandt)

03-31-2005, 09:46 PM
This month’s Mom’s are:


Rembrandt. Landscape with a Castle. c. 1632. Oil on panel. Louvre, Paris, France.


Rembrandt. Christ in the Storm on the Lake of Galilee. 1633. Oil on canvas. Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum, Boston, MA, USA

Here are links to the images:

Landscape with a Castle (Olga’s Gallery)

Christ in the Storm on the Lake of Galilee (Olga’s Gallery)

(At the Art Renewal site under Rembrandt (pg.18)


03-31-2005, 09:54 PM
Rembrandt was born in Leiden on July 15, 1606- his full name Rembrandt Harmenszoon van Rijn. He was the son of a miller and the eighth of nine children.

Though, he came from a modest family , his parents took great care with his education. Rembrandt began his studies at the school for Latin, and at the age of 14 he was enrolled at the University of Leiden and studied the classics. He didn’t complete the program. He wanted to be an artist instead of a scholar and soon left to study art. He studied a few months with a local master, the Italian trained, Jacob van Swanenburch. Then, he spent a short time in Amsterdam, with Pieter Lastman, known for his historical paintings. After six months, Rembrandt returned to Leiden. He was soon so highly regarded at 22 years old.

Tobit and Anna (1626), The Ass of Balaam Talking before the Angel. (1626). He also created a number of self-portraits: Self-Portrait. (c. 1629), Self-Portrait with Wide-Open Eyes. (1630).
(page one)

When his father died on the 27th April 1630, Rembrandt moved to Amsterdam. Prince Frederick Hendrick bought a number of his paintings and commissioned the Passion cycle. He would work on the Passion cycle in 1639.

In 1632, Rembrandt also received the commission to paint a portrait of the famous surgeon, Dr. Nicolaes Tulp. Rembrandt became a well-known portraitist in Amsterdam and started to receive many commissions. One of his favorite themes, the meditating Philosopher, appeared in his work as early as about 1633. The Prophet Jeremiah Mourning over the Destruction of Jerusalem. (1630): Rembrandt has used the blunt end of his brush to scratch details of the foliage, Jeremiah’s beard and the fastenings of his tunic in the wet paint, a characteristic technique of his early years.

03-31-2005, 09:56 PM
Since Landscape with a Castle was painted in 1632 and Christ in the Storm on the Lake of Galilee was painted in 1633, both painting are painted during this period. “Landscape with a Castle” is an imaginary landscape. “Christ in the Storm” was a commissioned painting painted at the request of the buyer. Rembrandt went through a period particularly during the late 1630’s when he did several landscapes. Often they had a biblical theme and often “ the emphasis is on the freakish scene and eerie atmosphere”. Rembrandt may have been influenced by Hercules Segers, whose landscapes Rembrandt admired and collected.

03-31-2005, 10:00 PM
He became a member of the Guild of St. Luke in 1634. This allowed him to train pupils and apprentices as a self-employed master. Rembrandt many student followers. The best known is Gerard Dou, though there were many others.

Rembrandt married Saskia van Uylenburgh in 1634. She was the cousin of a successful art dealer. This enhanced his career by bringing him in contact with wealthy patrons. He worked painting quite a few commissioned portraits during this period. Rembrandt’s combination of theory and practice allowed him to inventa new kind of painting, the ‘tronie’ or portrait head which found a middle ground a between portraiture and history painting.

He also worked on mythological and religious works that were much in demand . He was also well known and in demand as a teacher. Because of this, there is debate amongst sholors over a number of his paintings about whether attributed these paintings to his associates in his workshop or Rembrandt himself.

the Portrait of Nicolaes Ruts (1631, Frick Collection, New York City). The Blinding of Samson (1636, Städelsches Kunstinstitut, Frankfurt)

03-31-2005, 10:10 PM
Though his career was successful, Rembrandt's family life was happy. The couple loved and cared for each other very much. Unfortunately, between 1635 and 1641 Saskia gave birth to four children, but only , Titus,the youngest child, survived. There was also arguments with Saskia’s family about the excessive spending habits of Rembrandt and Saskia. Saskia died in 1642- at the age of 30. There are some remarkable, but sad sketches that Rembrandt made of her during this period.

While married to Saskia, Rembrandt created such masterpieces as The Abduction of Ganymede. (1635), The Angel Stopping Abraham from Sacrificing Isaac to God. (1635), The Feast of Belshazzar. (c. 1635), ,* Danae. (1636), The Prodigal Son in the Tavern (Rembrandt and Saskia). (c. 1635)

03-31-2005, 10:15 PM
Rembrandt’s largest and most famous painting is “The Night Watch “(1642). It is (12x15ft; 3.5x4.5m). It was commissioned by a company of the Civil Guard of Amsterdam for its assembly hall. It was praised in 1678, by Samuel van Hoogstraten, because it went beyond being a group portrait and became a “history painting.
(page 5)
The Night Watch seems to have been a turning point, after this he focuses less on external effects and tries to depict more of “ essence of man” and “his inner life”.

In 1649, Hendrickje Stoffels became his housekeeper. She eventually becomes his common-law wife. She is the model for many of his pictures during this time. Rembrandt is very successful as an artist, teacher, and art dealer. Unfortunately his lavish lifestyle forced him to declare bankruptcy in 1656. The results of the auction of his art collection and the sale of his house did not cover his debts. They do give us a record that indicates his interest in ancient sculpture, Flemish and Italian Renaissance paintings, Far Eastern art, contemporary Dutch works, weapons, and armor.

(In his last two decades Rembrandt simplified his compositions, preferring more classical and stable structure.

In spite of his personal problems, Rembrandt created some of his finest work. The Jewish Bride (1665), The Syndics of the Cloth Guild (1661, Rijksmuseum, Amsterdam), Bathsheba (1654, Louvre, Paris), Jacob Blessing the Sons of Joseph (1656, Staatliche Gemäldegalerie, Kassel, Germany), and a self-portrait (1658, Frick Collection).

In 1663, Hendrickje died. His son, Titus, died in 1668 even though he was only 27 years old. Rembrandt died in Amsterdam on October 4 1969, eleven months later.

Sources for historical essay:

Web Gallery of Art,

Grove Art Online Encyclopedia (http://www.groveart.com)

Olga’s Gallery

03-31-2005, 10:20 PM
Working methods and technique.

Many of Rembrandt’s paintings have been examined in detail. All those in the National Gallery, London, for instance have been studied extensively (see 1989 exh. cat.). The results of some of these investigations have been incorporated in the publications of the Rembrandt Research Project

Lots of useful information about Rembrandt here:

Rembrandt tended to use canvases and panels in standard sizes, partially because then he could also use standard size frames.

The ground or preparation layers might be applied by the panel maker or in the painter’s studio. It is possible, for instance, that the panel maker was responsible for the first layer of preparation and subsequent layers were the painter’s responsibility. Sometimes, if he thought that the surface was too rough, he scraped the surface down before painting.
He used a colored ground, never white. Usually a gray or grayish brown on his canvas, but the grounds got darker as he got older.

(Below is another of Rembrandt's self portraits and Hendrickje's portrait.)

03-31-2005, 10:22 PM
Most of Rembrandt’s work used a small palette of colors dominated by dark earth tones and golden highlights. Rembrandt’s palette is typical for 17th c. Dutch artists. It was made up of pigments that were commercially available and by that time well understood in their qualities and drawbacks

Working Manner

Rembrandt’s early work (both of our MOM’s are early paintings) were executed thinly in the Dutch seventeenth century style. Later on, he exaggerated his technique building the impasto heavier and heavier in the light and making the shadow more and more transparent.

The basic painting is done in a more painterly manner, blocking in areas with paint rather than a linear fashion where things are outlined.

Start off toning surface with Raw Umber, Lead white. Then everything is sketched in warm brown (burnt umber). The transparent shadowed areas use Burnt Umber too. He emphasize powerful contrast between transparent and opaque colors

A modern version of his palette would be yellow ochre, burnt sienna, burnt umber, white (probably a lead white), black and a brownish or orangey red probably vermillion though now we would use a cadmium red. There may be some additional colors used because these are landscapes, but I have given the typical Rembrandt palette.

Rembrandt’s paint was compounded with stand oil, with or without the addition of hard resin - damar or mastic. Some experts recommended maroger’s medium. It was very short lead paint - the oil in the paint is kept low that the paint retain sharp ridges when applied with a brush or knife. In other places, Rembrandt used paint with more oil for a flowing quality.

Shepherd (1983) suggests using 4,5,6, 7, and 8 bristle round brushes, #5 round sable and large and small flat bristle blenders. For pains he uses lead white, yellow ochre, vermilion, alizarin crimson, burnt sienna, burnt umber and ivory black.

Rembrandt liked to paint with “dirtied colors”. Colors were mixed with their opposites on the color wheel to create grays. Colors were often mixed in a way that would gray them. This was preferred over “straight from the tube colors. He often mixed charcoal into white to get a blueish gray.

Since his early work doesn’t have as much impasto, it is still somewhat true that, In terms of painting technique, opacity and built-up texture are usually interrelated, with much of the thickest impasto formed from the most solid and opaque of pigments, usually lead white or lead-tin yellow.

Rembrandt’s “painting method, in which color and transparency are adjusted as continuously varied combinations of relatively few pigments and further modified and adjusted as one layer of paint is laid over another until the desired effect has been reached.”

03-31-2005, 10:23 PM
He used a chiaroscuro style based on the work Caravaggio. It’s a style that uses strong lights and heavy shadows to create depth and a center of interest in a painting. Most of his paintings use a kind of composition in which the center of interest, the figures of the most important players of the group, are illuminated by direct light, while the rest of the picture remains in partial shadow with only enough light to distinguish the forms and bodies in the shade.

He pushed to the limits the contrasts of transparencies and opacities, darks and lights, hard edges and sfumato edges, and warm colors and cool colors.

Rembrandt uses the light to direct our attention. He creates lighted areas not just with the contrast of values or intense colors. Intense colors didn’t create the sense of light. The solution consisted in clarifying the colors by illuminating them proportionally to the light received. With these ideas and a constant study of nature, Rembrandt managed to dominate the art of chiaroscuro like no other artist. This technique could be called “light in the shadow”. Illuminating the tenuous colors and lights the forms in the penumbra so that they are in the picture.

The dark areas are defined with thin layers of paint. In the illuminated areas. Rembrandt used thicker, more opaque impastos. (These areas were really thick in his later years!)

03-31-2005, 10:24 PM

Frottage consist of lightly loading the brush with thick paint which is rubbed on top of an area already painted and dry. Bright colors are painted over dark ones. To complete areas bright colors are rubbed over darker colors from light to dark to create shining parts, highlight and middle tones. This creates a strong sense of solidity and color values.

High lights and the shining areas are created with thick opaque paint.

Artists using this approach prefer more subdued colors such as gray, blue or brown because they make the whole composition more harmonious.

03-31-2005, 10:25 PM
Additional notes about the pigment choices:

Rembrandt used lead colors such as lead-tin yellow, white lead, & naples yellow.

Some of his most used pigments are: lead white (used especially for areas of high impasto, such as white ruffs) and bone black (used especially for the black clothes worn by his sitters). He used many of the natural earth pigments, such as the ochres, siennas and umbers. According to GroveArt “As a group, the earth pigments provide the greatest range of the more muted, warm colors of red, orange, yellow and brown. All the earth colors used by Rembrandt would have come from naturally occurring sources, abundant in many parts of Europe (particularly in Italy, France and England), and would have been an established part of the pigment trade. Sources farther afield in Cyprus and Turkey supplied specialized grades and colors, particularly of the umbers.”

The great advantages of earth colors are that they are entirely stable in all painting media and do not interact with more chemically sensitive pigments, making them suitable for any kind of pigment mixture, and that they dry perfectly well in oil.

Some, like the umbers, are particularly effective driers. Their disadvantage, perhaps, is lack of intensity of color, but what they offer in range of color and choice of translucency must have suited Rembrandt well.
(page )

I’m not going to go into the characteristics of Rembrandt’s later technique, since these paintings were both done in the early 1630’s.

As much as I would love to explain about the “careless” finish and how he got the thickness of his paint. which was so thick in his later work that the Dutch artist and biographer Arnold Houbraken commented that the colors in one Rembrandt portraits were “so heavily loaded that you could lift it from the floor by its nose” because we aren’t going to be doing that this time! (But I couldn’t leave out that quote! LOL)


Big Book of Oil Painting by Jose Paramon Watson Guptill Publications, New York 1983

The Artist Magazine September 2004 “Mastering the Palette Apparent Carelessness by Marion Boddy-Evans

The Mastery of Oil Painting, Frederick Taubes, The Studio Publications, 1953
A Guide to Traditional and Modern Painting Methods, Frederic Taubes, Bonaza Books, 1963

How to Paint like the Old Masters by Joseph Shepherd Watson-Guptill Publications, 1983

03-31-2005, 10:26 PM
Several authors have mentioned this technique of Rembrandt. I don’t know that I quite understand it or at what stage it might be used. I don’t know if it is used in these paintings.

“Optical Gray” He used a cool gray, a mixture of black and white , letting the gray of the canvas ground show instead of painting in the gray tones. (Some of these grays now look green because of age.) He modeled the form together much like the alla prima painting of Rubens working one tone back into another correcting each form. Rembrandt constantly worked on contrasting his heavy opaque lights against his transparent medium-laden shadows and his warm tones against hs cool ones. He blended only after the paint had already become tacky and difficult ot move This unusual texture is one of the Rembrandt trademarks.
He used this optical gray which is almost the same value as the canvas to paint the shadow areas of the face and beard.

So if anyone can explain what this technique is for, I am eager to know!

Barb Solomon :cat:

03-31-2005, 10:28 PM
General Painting Instructions

Start off toning surface with Raw Umber, Lead white. Then everything is sketched in warm brown (burnt umber).The transparent shadowed areas use Burnt Umber too. He emphasize powerful contrast between transparent and opaque colors

A modern version of his palette would be yellow ochre, burnt sienna, burnt umber, white (probably a lead white), black and a brownish or orangey red probably vermillion though now we woiuld use a cadmium red. There may be some additional colors used because these are landscapes, but I have given the typical Rembrandt palette.

Shepherd suggests using 4,5,6, 7, and 8 bristle round brushes, #5 round sable and large and small flat bristle blenders. He uses lead white, yellow chre, vermilion, alizarin crimson, burnt sinna, burnt umber and ivory black.

Outline with burnt umber.

Establish the lights and shadows by using burnt umber without white. Use a thin transparent coat in the lightest sections.

In the next layer, highlights and shadows can be scrubbed into the paint.

“Optical Grays”, a mixture of black and white, can then be added in the some of the shadowed areas in the light spots. This provides a shadowed area to contrast with the highlights.

Hightlighted areas are added with more opaque colors.

Good luck!

Barb Solomon :cat:

03-31-2005, 10:43 PM
Hi Barb

absolutely super! :clap:

- on the question of "optical grey" - my understanding is that this means a very thin scumble of opaque lighter coloured paint over darker complementary colour, to achieve a grey, and a degree of light scatter in the upper layer - see Virgil Elliott's comments here: http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/2003/Best_of_ARC/best1.asp?msg=364&forumID=6

... "optical grey," means what appears to be a grey, made by a thin, semitransparent/semiopaque layer of white or other light-value paint over black or other (relatively) darker-value passage. "Optical" refers to what is seen by the eye. In this case what the eyes perceives is grey, though the top layer of paint is white, in the most simplified explanation...


03-31-2005, 11:01 PM
WOW Barb... what a database of info you have included for us... girl, you did your homework!
Thank you!!!!!!

04-01-2005, 02:26 AM
Hi Barb,

Last month I was amazed with all the research you had done for the "Analyse this" thread. I have to say that it pales to the even more exciting and excellent quality of this thread.

Excellent review of this master.

My congratulations go to you. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Kind regards.


04-01-2005, 08:05 AM
Rui - Thanks so much! Rembrandt has definitely turned into one of those painters, who I enjoy more now that I have studied him a bit.

Bernie - LOL! Thanks bunches! I have really enjoyed learning about Rembrandt!

Dave- Thanks for the explanation! I have definitely seen paintings that use the “optical grey” effect. I imagagine that one type of instance where he would have used in would be to paint something like an old man’s beard. He would paint a dark charcoal grey(which he would see as blue) layer for the beard and then scumble over the top with a mixture of white and yellow ochre (a blonde color). This could be more realistic that a light beard.

I can’t tell if this effect is being used in “Christ in the Storm”. I could see that it might make great seafoam!

Thanks everybody! Well, I am going to try “Landscape with a Castle”. Is anybody else going to give this one a try? :evil: :evil: :evil:

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-01-2005, 08:53 AM
Good Morning All :wave:

I turned on the computer bright and early this morning, before I even got my first cup of coffee, anxious to get started. Barb- Great Job! :clap: I have been researching Rembrandt ever since you wrote in your MOM post from March about your other thread. I haven't decided yet which one I am going to paint. I prefer the landscape, being that I am a landcsape painter, but I haven't been able to find a really High Quality image of the original. Actually there are very few photos of that particular painting anywhere. The one you have is difficult to really see. I am going to print out both and then decide. I think that either one will be a wonderful "challenge" to paint.

These Mom threads are Great! Can't wait to see how many other artists join in, and their WIP's.

Thanks for all your hard work!


04-01-2005, 12:40 PM
Good work. Interesting guy. I've only seen one real Rembrandt and it was so detailed. How'd they keep that lace so white? Going to re read the research and maybe give the Storm scene a try. Maybe. Lot's of little people to contend with.


04-01-2005, 03:20 PM
I am not that far from Chicago. Their Chicago Art Institute has 2 Rembrandt’s - Old Man with a Gold Chain and Young Woman at an Open Half-Door. (Forgive the jpg’s, if they aren’t the best.)

Do you mean the lace in his portraits? One thing that I learned from doing the Hals MOM, last August, was that only the lightest light was actually white. Most of the white cuffs and lace were mixed (in the case of my Hals) with ochre (they might be gray or any light color). Everything was kept light enought that the mind thought it was white, but it wasn’t.

Your going to try “The Storm”! Good going! I am looking forward to seeing how you do! Good luck!

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-01-2005, 03:47 PM
I Am Frustrated :crying:

I decided to paint the landscape and have done the bulk of the blocking in with a wash of raw umber but I am getting frustrated :mad: The image that I printed off (and I have a great Epson printer) is such poor quality that I can't make out most of the detail. I have tried playing around with it in photoshop but I can only pick up about half of it. I can tell there is a lake in front I can almost make out the reflections of the trees. I know that Rembrandt painted with a great deal of detail BUT I CAN'T SEE IT! I am a perfectionist at heart so this is driving me crazy. I don't want to just guess.
Does anyone have any suggestions? Does anyone know of a source for a good copy? I've searched all over the net to no avail.

AAGH! :mad:


04-01-2005, 04:01 PM
Does anyone know of a source for a good copy? I've searched all over the net to no avail.
Jodi... I know what you mean... I searched the net last night for about an hour for a high res image. The one Barb found at Olga's gallery was about the best I came across too.

04-01-2005, 04:13 PM
People think that I am nuts when they hear my method of setting up jpgs for paintings.

I place the image in Illustrator! I have enlarged the photo to fill a reasonably large size on notebook paper. I, then, make a rectangle of the size of eventual canvas. Then, I shrink the rectangle until it is the best size in proportion to my jpg. I often make a extra copy of my rectangle at this point. When I have everything about the right size, I make a mask to block off any excess part of the jpg. If I place my extra rectangle over my masked image, and leave the center of the rectangle empty, I have a frame for my new proportions.

Can you enlarge the image in Photoshop? If you look under Image, and click Image Size, you can enlarge the image. (There is a little chain symbol on the side, make sure that doesn’t change or get unclicked. It constrains you image.) If you type in 800 instead 400 pixels - the image will double. Some images pixelate if you enlarge them too much, but it might be worth a try to print this out. You also don’t want to enlarge it so much that it doesn’t fit on you paper.

I sometimes make one print out that I do most of my work from. But I will also enlarge particular areas to enlarge to better see certain details areas.

I also overlighten or overadjust areas in photoshop to make prints that help me see the details. This way I can see object in the shadowed areas a lot better.

I hope that this helps.

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-01-2005, 04:21 PM
This is an overly lighten image of the Castle. It might help someone find details that aren’t visable otherwise.

It isn’t good as a guide for color!:wink2:

Does this help?

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-01-2005, 04:48 PM
I just found an alternate image! Here’s a link to the image.

The color is considerable different in this version. (And given that it is from the Louvre, it is probably more correct than my original.)


I am also posting a version.

I will post some detail image in a bit.

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-01-2005, 05:11 PM
Barb... love the colors in the one from the Louvre so much better... the sky seems alive! Thanks!

04-01-2005, 05:46 PM
I have to admit the color is much better in this version. I still don't know if anyone can see all of the detail.

I have made several detail shots that I hope will help.

I will also later do the same for the "The Storm".

I don't know, I had it all worked out in my mind. The painting had yellowed over the years. It was on a canvas that was toned in yellow ochre. It was a castle after a bad storm...... :wink2:

I think that the color will look much better in everybody's work now. I would say, there burnt sienna and ultramarine.....

Barb Solomon :cat:

A Few Pigments
04-01-2005, 05:58 PM
I was thinking it might be fun to do a Rembrandt, but the landscape is ambiguous and the seascape is too complex. I’ll do a George Frederic Watts on my own instead.

04-01-2005, 06:09 PM
Barb- You Are A Life Saver!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :D

I had tried everything that you had suggested and more. But when I enlarged and lightened it enough to see the details it just became washed out blocks of color.

I don't know how you found this pic, but THANK YOU!

Here is a pic of my wash in raw umber
Sorry, it is a little askew. I didn't bother to make sure that everything was level before I took the shot.


04-01-2005, 08:52 PM
Jo_b - I'm just sorry that I didn't find that photo earlier!

Your raw umber layer looks marvelous! :clap: :clap:

Thanks for hanging in there! It's going to be interesting watching yours progress!

Barb Solomon :cat:

irish artist
04-02-2005, 10:28 AM
I'm doing the "Storm" and would like to see the 'detail' pictures that you were talking about if you can find them, thanks Barb.

04-02-2005, 11:38 AM
Irish Artist -Hi! It’s great to see that you are going to join us!

The last 4 pics are somewhat enlarged in photoshop. I will try again if, there is a section that you need to have enlarged. I have to be careful, if I increase it too much, it can pixlelate and become more confusing.

Here’s the link.

I hope that this helps!


Barb :cat:

04-02-2005, 03:30 PM
Hello everyone,

Barb, :clap: :clap: :clap: Very nice informations. Thanks for taking such a hard work to make all this info avalaible.

Jodi, nice start on your landscape.

Unfortanally, I wont be able to join in. But will keep lurking from time to time. Health is not ok yet. And I cant paint, I am feeling frustated and sad at the moment. :crying:

Though for me both paintings are too tough. But I love the seascape. It is so desirable. I do love to hang such a piece in my hallway. Maybe someone can paint one for me?? :o KIDDING!! :D

Anyway, wish all of you do fine on this month challenge!


04-02-2005, 05:22 PM
Rose - I can totally understand! I hope that you are feeling better!

I can imagine how frustrating it is! Just hang in there, and be patient! It’s probably not good to rush getting better!

Best wishes

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-02-2005, 05:25 PM
Hi Rose :wave:

Sorry to here that you are still not feeling well, and that you won't be joining in this month. :crying: Never say that a painting is Too hard. It's enough that you try, it's a learning experience for all of us!
The more you try, the better your skills become. When I look back at some of the stuff I painted thirty years ago :eek: ... well let's just say, I get a good laugh :D

When you are better, please post your finished MOM from March, The Girl in the Red Hat. I know that everyone would love to see it.

Take Good Care of Yourself Rose!


04-02-2005, 05:40 PM
If you finish a MOM, after the month has finished, it is a good idea to still post it on the thread. That way, if anyone goes and looks up the thread, they can see what you did!

Another thing some people do, it just paint a section of the MOM by cropping part of it. Somebody could try just painting Rembrandt's castle.

That way, a really difficult painting can be "cut down to size"! It's a great idea, if one month the MOM is too hard or if you are really busy! You still get to try the technique!

Barb Solomon :cat:

irish artist
04-02-2005, 06:59 PM
'Cropping'.....there's an idea, I'll throw some of these disciples off the boat..just kidding!!!!!!!!

04-02-2005, 07:34 PM
Irish Artist - Fantastic! What a great storm! Your off to a great start!
:clap: :clap:

Ok, your right! We can’t lose any disciples!wink2: :eek: :D

Here’s some details! Some are over-lightened to bring out the details.
I hope that this helps and I am sorry that I didn’t realize earlier!

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-02-2005, 07:41 PM
Here's more details of "The Storm"!

04-02-2005, 07:46 PM
And here is some more!

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-02-2005, 09:57 PM
Thanks for the detail shots of the Storm scene. I don't understand the boat. Trying to envision the hull under the wave and getting a pretty wierd looking ideas. Even tried looking at other paintings of the era and can't see the detail. Did they have outriggers or something? What's that guy standing on? Wondering and venting a bit. It's that left brain stuff getting in there. A couple of aspirin and some rest might help send him back into oblivion for a while. The extra passenger is the patron? Just curious.

Great starts already posted. Love this stuff!


04-02-2005, 11:31 PM
Gini - It is confusing. I think that because of the storm, the people are leaving the ship and going onto a lifeboat!

The extra passenger being a patron isn’t a bad guess.

I outlined what I think may be the boats! Does that look close?

Barb Solomon :cat:

irish artist
04-03-2005, 09:05 AM
Barb, it's water spilling over the boat, the story is that the one figure is the Christ and a storm arose and all the others were afraid and feared the ship would sink and He stilled the storm and asked them why they were so afraid when He was with them.

04-03-2005, 10:10 AM
Thanks Irish Artist,

I was just about to post the same thing. Barb, there is only one boat, and it was a small one, a fishing vessel from the 1st century. Kind of like a glorified row boat. The waves are crashing over the hull and the boat is being tossed about in the storm. The Disciples were told to go out to sea and wait for Him after He just finished preaching and feeding 6000 people with the loaves and fishes. So even though the Discliples had all ready witnessed many miracles they still did not have the faith to believe that He would protect them. Jesus had just walked across the sea and climbed into the boat and chastised them. "Oh yea of little faith". :cat:

Here is a post of my landscape WIP
The sky still needs some refining and I have layed in the undertones to the rest of the painting.


04-03-2005, 10:42 AM
Barb--yes that does help. Thanks. Maybe I can get on with it now. Suspect it's going to be a bit more urgent looking since my attempts so far have made it look like the ship is breaking up. That would get a bunch of fishermen upset. At least the ones I've met. :)


04-03-2005, 12:37 PM
Irish Artist - Thanks for trying to help us! It’s probably a good thing that I am doing the castle!;)

We all agree about the waves, and I doubt that any of us would want to be on that boat! It’s that the one side seems jagged. If I look at this as a “big rowboat”, which was the general shape of boats at the time, one side seems zigzagged. I suppose that the wave could be caving in one side, but that doesn’t make sense given the story in the bible.

When I hear the story, I think of a boat that is solid and intact but tossed around furiously, almost flipped over even. I am still not sure how to answer Gini’s question of “what is he standing on?” because if it is one boat, he is standing in midair or on the water.

Gini - Do you think that they would be a little upset?!!! ;) :D

Two of those men are clinging pretty tightly to the mast. Maybe this is because the side of the boat is caving in.

Good luck with your drawing! I am really looking forward to seeing it!

Ok, if I say any more, I will probably confuse everybody! I have an awful cold today and staying inside and drawing might be a good thing to do. I hope to be working some on my castle today!

Jodi - Thanks for helping!

Oooo, your drawing is looking beautiful! You are getting the magical quality the original has!

I’m curious, what colors are you using? It looks like your sky is ultramarine blue and black. And the land is burnt sienna with some burnt umber.

Barb Solomon

04-03-2005, 03:07 PM
Hi All :wave: ,

Barb, thanks for the kind words. I used raw umber and turps for the wash. For the sky over the raw umber, ultramarine blue, titanium white and raw umber (to tone it down). highlights of quinacridone red with titanium white, and indian yellow with titanium white.
For the under coat of the landscape in the lighter areas I first scumbled in indian yellow and cad orange. then over that scumbled over everything (except castle) with burnt sienna.

Windsor Newton's:
titanium white
raw umber
burnt umber
burnt sienna
ultramarine blue
quinacridone red
indian yellow
yellow ocher
cad orange
Scheveningen green (most like OLD terre verte)

BTY: Thought that this may help those doing the storm get a handle on the shape of the boat.

Picture of a 1st century fishing boat (replica)


04-03-2005, 03:12 PM
One More Thing....

Barb, Hope that you feel better! We can't lose you to illness, your the Guide for this thread.


irish artist
04-03-2005, 05:44 PM
Barb--yes that does help. Thanks. Maybe I can get on with it now. Suspect it's going to be a bit more urgent looking since my attempts so far have made it look like the ship is breaking up. That would get a bunch of fishermen upset. At least the ones I've met. :)


I've a few chuckles over this post.........very funny Gini :)

04-03-2005, 06:05 PM
Hey Barb, hope you get better soon. Just me out of this thread is enough.

Jodi, Your landscape is coming along beautifully. Well done!! :clap: :clap:

Looking forward to see everyones WIP.

Take Care subies.

Ps: I am still a little bit tired. But I am fine though. Dont worry, I will come back soon.

04-03-2005, 09:41 PM
Jodi - Thanks for the photo! Thank is a great boat!

I like the broad range of colors that you are using!

Thanks so much, I am hanging in there, in spite of this silly cold!

Rose - Thanks so much!

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-04-2005, 10:48 AM
Jodi--thank you for that boat picture. That helps a bunch. Decided to build mine in a similar design. Can't wait to see what happens next with your castle. I can already see it happening in there. Really got a kick out of that weird little tree in one of the detail shots. Gonna' use it? Sometimes I forget these guys had a sense of humor. To busy standing in awe of their ability.

Hope the sickies :) get to feeling better real soon.


04-04-2005, 11:16 AM
Barb you did a great job in hosting this exercise. I would like to join in this month but right now I am not sure that I can.

Irish Artist and Ginib what size are you doing your storm? That is the painting that speaks to me.

Will cheer you all on this month. This is a challenge for sure! Best to you all, Nickel

irish artist
04-04-2005, 11:56 AM
Nickel, I'm doing an 19x26 and have not been able to locate any information about the orginial size. If you want to try 'the Storm' be sure you are up to painting all the figures--there are 12 plus the Christ.

04-04-2005, 02:38 PM
Nickle was kind enough to pass some links on to me! They have pictures and descriptions of the sort of boat used in “The Storm”. I thought that some of you might find this interesting!

the first is a model of the Jesus Boat, kinda like the one in Rembrandt's picture

http://www.holylandphotos.org/photo... 0Scale%20Model

and this other is about the actual boat they found in the Sea of Galilee


Thanks Gini!

Nickle - It’s great to have your encouragement! I hope that you get a chance to try one of the MOM’s soon!

Thanks so much for the links! They really do help me get a better idea of what was going on in the painting!

I’ve been working on my charcoal drawing. I am using a 16” x 20” canvas board!

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-04-2005, 04:07 PM
Nickel, I'm doing an 19x26 and have not been able to locate any information about the orginial size. If you want to try 'the Storm' be sure you are up to painting all the figures--there are 12 plus the Christ.

Thanks for letting me know the size you are painting. The orginial is 161.7 x 129.8 cm or around bout 63.66 x 51.10 inches. I sure don't have any canvas that large! Yes all the figures are a challenge. Scares me to think about painting that many people on one canvas. Irish Artist you are off to a great start. Will watch with eager eyes. :) Best Nickel

04-04-2005, 04:11 PM
Nickel--Good reference photos. Had to add that to my list of bookmarks. Like collecting those kinds of sites. Barb, thanks for posting the info. My attempt is going on a 16x20. Keeps the little faces from driving me wild. I think the ARC site has some original dimensions. Come join the fun. Rembrandt wasn't always a master.


04-04-2005, 08:30 PM
Irish Artist- You've got a great start going. I really love that painting but I just did't feel up to all those people!

So Barb- Do you think this MOM will be as popular as last month? I'm still following the progress of the WIP's on that thread.


04-04-2005, 10:57 PM
Nickel - It’s really great to have your help and encouragement! :cool: :cool:

When I need little details, like the disciples in the “Storm”, I often resort to small watercolor brushes.

I have been trying to finish the last MOM while drawing out this one! I will post it as soon as I get an outline.

Gini - Was there a listing of these paintings on ARC? (I thought I checked that one! They usually have really good scans.)

Jodi - I don’t know which will be more popular. I can see that Rembrandt is daunting. I am wondering how many will take a bit to finish up the last one! :)

Barb Solomon :cat:

Carey Griffel
04-05-2005, 11:11 AM
Hello, everyone!!

I've decided to join in on this month's!

Barb, thanks for all your hard work on putting this one up...as well as for your encouragment!

I will be doing Christ in the Storm...I technically started it the end of last month (what a better time to start than Easter, eh?), but have only gotten as far as the sketch. (Sorry, no photo yet!)

As far as dimentions go, this one is originally 63x50--huuuge, in my book! (Though I imagine it could have been huger!) So...I got to thinking about it and I had a 24x36 canvas that I considered doing it on...and you've got to think two-dimentionally to realize that that is NOT half-size, but *quarter*-size. And I realized that this painting just wouldn't have the impact in something that (relatively) "small". I wanted to do it more or less half-size. So I found the biggest canvas available here in town, 36x48. A little daunting, but at the same time, it'll make doing those 14 figures a lot easier!

So do I get a gold star for being brave doing it this size--or do I just get a nice white straight jacket? :D


04-05-2005, 06:21 PM
Welcome Carey :wave:
Glad you're joining us. I have to admit, these are hard ones, they are going to take some time to finish. SO MUCH DETAIL :eek: This landscape may actually take the entire month or more!

Nickel- great start, I can't wait to see everyones progress. Helps keep me motivated to continue working on this.
I had decided to paint the landscape before Barb posted the "GOOD" pictures.
The ones with all the details in them. I thought that it would be easier. HA HA, the joke is on me. But never one to back down from a challenge (even from myself) I'm going to keep plugging at this painting. I have been working on it most of the day and I don't feel like I've gotten very far :( .
But here is my progress. You know, there is a lot of color in there, but you really can't see all the subtle hue changes except in person.


04-05-2005, 09:37 PM
Here’s another interesting link (Thanks again, Nickel), particularly for those who are working on “The Storm”! It’s a bit sad to think about but it is worth knowing.

Nickel - Thanks, I had read about the theft of “The Storm” but, at the time I was researching I wasn’t able to verify that the painting was still missing. Thanks again for the link! It was great to read about the incident in more detail!


Barb Solomon :cat:

04-05-2005, 09:48 PM
Today, has been a crazy hectic day for me, so I am still working on the drawing. I guess that it is better to be careful in the early stages.

Carey - Hey, I am glad that you are joining in!:cool:

36 x 48 ? That is going to be impressive! Really I had to work that big when I was in school, it really isn’t that bad. But there may be a couple of techniques that you may have to approach differently to make them work.

Jodi - Your painting is coming along great! I love your sky!

I know what you mean about the detail! It is something else to try to figure out what is going in this painting!

You have really caught the feeling of the painting! Your color looks really good! :clap: :clap:

Keep up the good work! I am looking forward to seeing your painting develop!

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-05-2005, 10:26 PM
Thanks Barb,

I have pretty much figured out what it is that I am looking at, the problem is putting it all in. I tried to match the original size as much as possible, which I believe to be24x18. I had an 24x20 in my stock so I used that. So I have no excuse NOT to put in all that I can see. Barb, what size are you doing?
Here are a couple of close ups of my WIP.

You know, I have been trying to figure out how to post my WIP images using the upload manager in quick links but I just can't seem to get it to work. It copies but won't paste. Any ideas on what I am doing wrong?


04-05-2005, 11:08 PM
I'm doing mine on a 16" x 20" canvas board. I have it so that I am adding a bit at the top. I haven't yet gotten into serious drawing problems, but that may be because I am still working on the trees.

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-05-2005, 11:10 PM
I usually copy/paste my photo when I use the upload manager. I have always assumed that this is because I am on a Mac.

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-06-2005, 01:28 AM
22x28 (tallest my weenie easel can take)
The four sessions so far -started mid-March. Some drawing issues with the shape of the boat and how the figures fit. (Issues in the software sense- they'd be problems if I could still fix them). Also the mast is a bent a bit to the right but I can fudge that yet. The rigging and the water are what scare the bejeez -uh- concern me.

04-06-2005, 11:10 AM
Steve- Your work is turning out nicely! You have done well with the lighting so far! I can totally understand about the waves in the ocean and the rigging. Actually, you have already done really well on the one big wave! Good luck with everything! I am looking forward to seeing how you do!

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-06-2005, 01:39 PM
WOW Steve that is really looking Awsome! I can't wait to see the finished piece. :clap: :clap: :clap:


04-07-2005, 01:09 AM
Hi, Carey, I can’t wait to see your first wip’s for the Storm.

Jodi, Your castle is looking solid and grand! The close-up photos are nice to see.

Barb and Gini, looking forward to seeing your first wip's.

Irish Artist, you and Steve are both doing a great job with the motion and mood of the storm.

I am in the planning stage for the storm and think to start with a burnt sienna imprimatura. I need your help, has anyone any comments or suggestions on Rembrandt’s beginning approach for the storm, 1) use a grisaille or 2) use an imprimatura? My canvas size will be 16x20.

Thanks Nickel

04-07-2005, 11:38 AM
Hi--watching the goings on with much interest. wip? You don't even want to see where I've been. Can't get a decent photo anyway. Having to cover a misplaced drawing that keeps showing thru. Never again will I try and use an old canvas. It isn't worth the trouble. So this has been a major journey. If it gets any better I will upload something. Pretty bummed at the moment. Maybe a fresh start now that I've "practiced" a little?
Steve--amazing work already.

Carey Griffel
04-07-2005, 12:13 PM
Nickel--thanks for the encouragement. ;) As far as how to start, I deliberated on that for quite a while. From bits and pieces of what I've read in various sources, it seems that Rembrandt's "usual" technique was to start out with a medium reddish-brownish layer (ie, burnt sienna or umberish type of a thing). Technically it was/wasn't an imprimatura. :p (How's THAT for an answer?? ;) ) --Meaning, it was, but he also added white into this layer to catch his highlights.

That's how I am proceeding, more or less...something of a combination between an imprimatura and a grisaille, I think (mine is probably technically closer to a grisaille). However, it also seems that Rembrandt used whatever worked best for a particular painting...he didn't always begin everything this way. Looking at the Storm, I have a hard time visualizing that he actually started with a very brown underpainting that is evident in other works, but...I decided to approach this in a "typical" Rembrandt style, even if it's not literally "typical" :p --especially since this is a fairly early work.

But, all indications are that much of the time, Rembrandt would do this brown layer, then work from background to foreground, leaving the brown figures until last. So...that's what I'm doing. I'm about halfway through the boat/figures on the first layer and it's beginning to look like they're sculpted in chocolate. :p I'm using nothing but Gamblin's asphaltum and white.

Looking at the image I have, that figure kneeling (? cowering?) before Jesus seems to be our culprit extra!...it really looks like that figure is bowing to Jesus--unless he is, in fact, just cowering--while the others are in a state of panic...so it seems logical to me that this might be the patron who commissioned the work...?

I didn't notice that person until I significantly lightened the image. In any case, it seems to me that the paint on that figure is thinner--ie, perhaps that is what all of the figures looked like before Rembrandt proceeded to refine the painting past the first layers. Though this is a relatively early work, I'd still imagine that the darker areas are thinner whereas the lighter are thicker, suggesting that he built the entire painting up from dark to light. I'm having a hard time doing that on the left of the boat beause technically I would leave all that water spray to be built up, but it's making it difficult to see the figures if all of that area is in midtones.

As far as working on a big canvas...Barb, you are right, it's really *not* difficult, just intimidating at first. In fact, bigger is, quite often, easier. However, it *is* difficult in that I'm with Steve...I have a itty bitty easel that'll hold only up to 28" (though I can easily get away with 36 by wiring the canvas crossbar to my easel :p :rolleyes: ), but the only thing I can do with this sucker is prop it up on a chair and have it leaning against the wall! I can't work on it at anything even approaching a comfortable level, but...sigh...I'll make it through somehow! :)


irish artist
04-07-2005, 01:28 PM
Carey, there were several of us talking on page two (?) about the figures and we were talking about the story behind the 'Storm'. The story is about the disciples and the Christ and the storm that arose. There should be the 12 disciples and the Christ in the painting--not 14 figures. The 'patron' (?).....are you talking about the person who commissioned the painting...he wasn't a disciple.

I began the under painting with my usual umber and turps. Sketched it all in lightly and will use the burnt sienna for the second layer. Using that big canvas is ambitious!!! Think you will be done by the end of April??

Carey Griffel
04-07-2005, 02:24 PM
Irish artist--yeah, sorry if I didn't make myself clear. :) That's exactly what I meant. If there's an extra person (which there is--unless Rembrandt knew something that we don't! :p ;) ) it's logical to assume that Rembrandt included the person who commissioned the painting--or there may be another motivation lost to time. Things of that nature are often done, from renaissance time up to our day. I was speculating that it was that individual because (to my eye at least) he seems different than the other people in the boat (not counting Jesus, of course).

Haha, as for being done by the end of April...well, I can't count on it! :p Every time I make a deadline like that for myself, I seem to pass by it...by months, lol. But...I've got my secret hopes up nonetheless! This is progressing faster than I'd expect it to from past experience, so...who knows! :)

Looking forward to more progress with everyone else!


04-07-2005, 06:23 PM
Come On Everyone
I Am begining to feel like I'm the only one painting this castle. Where is everyone else's pics? :confused: You all keep talking about your WIP's But Post those PICS :D

I am finally feeling like I am making some progress on this WIP. I have been painting for days, it's nice to see that it is starting to actually look like the original, well almost. I still have a long way to go, but I think I am getting there, eventually. :( :wink2:


04-07-2005, 11:57 PM
Steve your I coming along beautifully! That one is in my thought to paint one day but Rembrants paintings seems so hard to paint.

Jodi yours are really inspiring. I know I told you that before. But your WIP is giving me an ideia of where the painting should go. Thanks it is a good reference when I can paint it in the future.

Looking forward to see the other works that havent beeing posted yet. :wave:

04-07-2005, 11:57 PM
Nickel - I am glad to see that you are going to join us after all! :cool:
Good Going!

I would be tempted to tone the canvas very lightly with burnt umber. Then, it looks to my eye as if Rembrandt painted the sea in shade of gray (a grisaille) and the boat with its people in shades of burnt umber (bistre). But this is just my guess!

Gina - I am sorry to hear about what happened! What method did you use to cover over your old painting?

The few times I have tried reusing a canvas, I often ended up using 5 or 6 coats of gesso.

What color paints are you using for your Rembrandt? (I am hoping that they are opaque.)

Sometimes, though, some paintings can just be really stubborn!

Carey - Your description of his working methods sound pretty close to something that I read in one of my Rembrandt articles! They said something about his love of experimentation.:cool:

Oh no! I can just imagine your all crunched over while painting furiously!

Good luck! I don’t know if I would worry one way or another about finishing! I am sure that a few of us are going to still be working on this after the month ends!

Jodi - I really am working on the castle! HONESTLY!:angel:

The sky in your painting in incredible! Is that a bit of burnt sienna in the sky?

You really have caught the overall sense of his colors! And I really like your castle and other architecture! Good job!:clap:

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-08-2005, 08:33 AM
Hi Barb :wave:
I believe you! :wink2: I just thought that I would be a pest and see if I could egg people on :evil: Yeah, I scumbled a light glaze of burnt sienna onto the main cloud mass and tiny bits into the rest of the sky's dark areas. It bothered me that the sky was reading so cool and the land is warm. the two did not read as a whole. Since we know that Rembrandt employed the use of warm and cool palettes I felt that most likely he would have done the same thing. I think that the reason the original's color in the sky reads cool is that it is probably from the accumulation of 450+ years of dirt and polution obscuring some of the subtleties and nuances of the actual hues in the painting. Just my theory :D

Gina- I rarely reuse my canvases, too much hassle! I hate having to sand off the thick layers of the old paint to try to get back to a smooth surface :eek: . But when I have used them in the past... I found that if I first paint on a layer of black gesso and then about 3 layers of white gesso it will obscure all evidence of the old painting.

Carey- If you have a 6 foot ladder try using that. run two short boards (2"x4"x3') across the steps from front to back and set your canvas on the boards. Make sure to put some weight on the opposite ends of the boards or secure them somehow (nails) to counterbalance the weight of the canvas. It is a great way to hold oversized canvases. (Did you understand that?)

Have a great day painting your little hearts out everyone!


04-08-2005, 10:32 AM
Well, if the original can go missing so can my attempt. It's headed for the trash. I read somewhere all I had to do was sand it down and cover the old with titanium and maybe a tint. Did that. The smooth surface wasn't as smooth once the light hit that white. So tried anyway. And died. (Line from an old scifi). It's not a total loss, failures generally aren't. Learned a few things beside not to do that again, like 14 little people is a crowd on that size, skies are great fun, waves break with white on the down side. Landlubber here. Rembrandt was pretty good at his game. Carey, Irish, Steve--I'll watch and see what else I should've known first. Jodi-that castle is going to be very nice. Barb-great job with the project.

04-08-2005, 11:30 AM
WOW Barb - Way to go !!! What a write up. :) Took me about 1/2 hour to read through everything at this point.

I think when it comes to this particular Master - a lot of intimidation comes into play, even with more experienced artists. So it's best for a lot of people to push the name Rembrandt out of your minds, study the technique. Like any other painting - it's all in the shapes and values. I know if I think I'm "copying a Rembrandt" I will also have that intimidation on my heels as well. So just my 2cents there.

I have a good stock of large canvases - but will think on this one for sure. I like both paintings, but am more drawn to the seascape. Finishing up last months this weekend.

Good luck everyone and will be watching with keen interest.


04-08-2005, 11:08 PM
Jodi - I think that the burnt sienna is a nice touch! I may try that myself. It intigrates the landscape with the sky. The original does seem to have it too. In reality, there is often a reflection of color from the earth onto the clouds.

Thanks, it’s worth knowing that black gesso is the secret.

Gina - If you do a search of WetCanvas, there have been some excellent threads on reusing old canvases. But to recap what I remember, sanding (one fellow used a sander! and facemask) and then cover it with gesso. I found that it took at least 4 coats. I am going to try Jodi’s black gesso next.

I am sorry to hear that you ran into trouble. Do you have another canvas?

Tina - It’s great to see you! Thanks so much for the kind thought on my MOM article!

So if you finish up the last MOM, are you going to try “The Storm”? I am looking forward to seeing what you do!

You are totally right about the not worrying too much about these being Rembrandt. I guess even Rembrandt had to do his painting one brushstroke at a time!

Here’s my outline! I will probably try to do the sky tomorrow. I may tone the canvas at first. Then after doing the sky I am going to be working on the landscape in browns. The detail of the landscape reminds me so much of his pen and ink painting that I may try to work on it in burnt umber.

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-09-2005, 08:05 AM
Hey Nickel - yep, definitely all about the learning. Then when you're finished, you can say "look - I've copied a Rembrandt!". :) Sign it "Study of Rembrandt's ..(title)...... and your name " and then you can sell it :)

Hi Barb - yes, considering the storm. I've never painted on anything smaller than a 16 x 20, and have quite a few larger canvases in stock, so I am considering that particular painting. We'll see. I have about 3 different projects ongoing at the moment outside of the MOM's but I may be able to squeeze something extra in this month. It's just a "big" extra :D


04-09-2005, 10:26 AM
Nickel - Your plan really sounds like a really good one! I am really looking forward to seeing hue, value and technical studies. The learning is the really important thing.

The master studies really help tie the other art lessons together.

Tina - That’s really great! LOL ! “The Storm” is definitely going to be a nice “little extra”! I am looking forward to seeing your project!

I know what you mean by the size. I always had to paint big in school and I am having to really relearn to paint small. The choice of brushes is totally different.

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-09-2005, 07:16 PM
Good start Barb!
Keep at it, it is a handful to say the least :eek:
I have finished mine YEAH :clap: :clap: :clap:
It was a good learning experience, but, it will be the LAST Rembrandt landscape that I paint. His style is so different from mine. I had a very hard time relating to the piece.

Nickel- good idea to do a study rather than take on THE WHOLE THING!


Well, I was going to post my pic but the slave hard drive that I store all my paintings on seems to have disappeared! I mean I can see it, it's right here in my office, next to me, but my computer doesn't see it. So I'm going to have to help my computer regain it's sight! :mad: I'll be back

I got it! :D

04-09-2005, 11:27 PM
Jodi - You did a fabulous job! :clap: :clap: :clap:

You really did well at getting his overall color and the feel of his painting!

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-10-2005, 12:48 AM
Hi guys!!
Barb, you began!! Great. Love to see how you going to handle this one.

Jodi!! :clap: :clap: :clap: I know you said it is not your style but you do it so well, that you should think about. At least I would love to see another Rembrandt painted by you. :music: :music: :D

irish artist
04-10-2005, 10:49 AM
Nickel.....which cropp did you choose???

04-10-2005, 12:01 PM
Great job Jodi !!!

I have a whopping 36 x 48. Wonder if that will do for the seascape. Around 1/2 the size. I can't begin to imagine the original in personal view.


04-10-2005, 05:29 PM
Thanks Rose! I worked on the sky yesterday! It isn’t quite like the original. I love the light golden areas in Rembrandt’s painting!

Nickel - I am curious about which crop you are going to use, too! I am really looking forward to seeing your painting!

Thanks for the encouragement!

Tina - It doesn’t sound like a bad size! About how big would the sailors be then? (You are probably going to have to break out the triple 0 brushes anyway!)

Nickel- I remember thinking that he used either yellow ochre or raw sienna in the sails.

Also I found that the reddish tones in the sky for the castle painting worked well with burnt sienna. So that may be your “earth red”. Transparent red ochre may look nice too. It isn’t quite the brick red that is in red ochre.

Some people prefer raw umber. But I would suggest that you use Van Dyke brown for this painting. It is the right color.

The sail cloth is a very substantial fabric. Think canvas awnings! This will affect the way the folds act.

Don’t forget - whatever copy you make, it will be helpful for you as a way of learning!

It would be neat to see his painting! I bet that it is incredible! (This makes me sad that it is missing!)

As I said before, I worked on the sky yesterday! I am using Michael Harding’s Cremnitz White, Williamsburg Ivory Black, Blockx French Ultramarine, and Grumbacher Yellow Ochre and Grumbacher Burnt Sienna for the sky!

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-10-2005, 06:45 PM
Thanks everyone for the kind words. I am now starting on a Bouguereau, "Modesty" as a suprise gift for my daughter's birthday. It is her favorite painting. I'' be posting the progress in the classical forum if anyone would like to follow along. But I'' still be watching and commenting here.

OOOOH Barb- That sky looks GREAT! :clap: I really like it. You now have the really FUN part Ha Ha :evil: Hope that you have LOTS AND LOTS of burnt sienna, you're gonna need it. :D

Tina- that's a pretty good sized canvas, you have your work cut out for you! I'm sure you;ll do All those Apostles and Him just fine.

Keep ur the good work everyone. These are tough ones to say the least.

Jodi :cat:

04-11-2005, 12:27 AM
Jodi - Oh goodness! I bet it does. LOTS of burnt sienna and umber. Well, I have been wishing that I could use up my Grumbacher so that I can start using my Williamsburg Burnt Sienna and Burnt Umber.

I toned the canvas right over my outline with a combination of Cremnitz White and Burnt Umber. I used these colors to make a light "gray".

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-11-2005, 08:50 AM


04-11-2005, 06:22 PM
Tina - It doesn’t sound like a bad size! About how big would the sailors be then? (You are probably going to have to break out the triple 0 brushes anyway!)

Hey Barb - you're probably right. Looks like maybe about 10-12 inch people - :mad: Still not big enough for me, LOL. The Three Graces come to mind - they gave me much grief with their tiny faces and all. :evil: Maybe I should re-think my strategy.


04-11-2005, 09:07 PM
I don't mind doing the little detail, but sometimes I suspect that I could be making a better choice of brush for doing the tiny stuff.

It is good to know that you will have to do that beforehand! You really wouldn't want to do a GIANT Rembrandt copy either!

Barb Solomon:cat:

Carey Griffel
04-12-2005, 11:56 AM
Jodi--yours looks soooooo good!!!

Barb...yours is coming along well, as well!!

Tina--I'm doing 36x48, as well! I've got the first layer done--well, almost--and I think it's a good size. I know that you like to work big and detailed, though. :) But even if you did it full size, those figures are not going to be all that big, anyways, it's amazing what kind of detail Rembrandt could get just by "suggestion". I'll be looking forward to seeing what you do!

Everyone else--keep going!!!


04-12-2005, 02:25 PM
Hey Carey,

Thank you. How bout posting a pic? That is a lot of canvas to cover! I am currently painting two large ones. A Bierstadt- "The Shore of the Turquoise Sea" on a 40"x30" canvas, and Bouguereau's "Modesty" aka "Malgdaline" on a 24"x48" canvas. LOTS and LOTS of paint :eek: . The Bouguereau is a gift for my daughter's birthday.

Can't wait to see your WIP!

Barb- It's all your fault!!! You and your MOM have me obsessed with painting the masters. Thank You!


Carey Griffel
04-12-2005, 02:38 PM
Finally got a chance to get some photos!! :)

The first, obviously, is my rough sketch...no more detailed than basic placements...on my canvas (gessoed with a bit of raw umber mixed into the gesso).

The second is where it is at right now! Woohoo! Sorry for the glare on the right, I don't know what it is with dark earth pigments and glare! :rolleyes:

I still want a little more work with this layer, but not much, and then I can move on to the sky!





Carey Griffel
04-12-2005, 02:42 PM
Here's a detail that might help, too. :)



04-12-2005, 02:45 PM
Carey- WOW :clap:

Fantastic movement already! It's so good that it's making me a little seasick! :envy: This is going to be a great one, move over Rembrandt!


04-12-2005, 08:51 PM
Hi Carey, WOWEE that's looking fantastic already. So, you're working on the same large canvas. I know - I was thinking myself "wow that's a lot of paint" :D :evil: But I can say in your case - looks well worth it !! I've been looking at those little people in the boat for the past few days and seeing that it looks so simple - those "suggestive hints" - but I know it's not that simple too. It's so funny that even at that size - they are still so small to me, LOL - I'm still rethinking my strategy. How did you compensate for the extra room on the canvas? Artistic License? :)


04-12-2005, 09:29 PM
Jodi - There IS something about trying to do a masters painting, isn’t there?

Carey - You are really off to a great start! It has so much energy! It’s going to look fabulous when it is done!

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-12-2005, 10:37 PM
No Kidding Barb!

My DH called me obsessed tonight. I started working on the Bierstadt this morning at about 6:30 and besides a couple of breaks here and there, I finally called it quits for the night just now. I'll be posting it in the Classical thread as usual.

Boy everyone is really going gang busters on their Rembrandt's. They all look soooo good!

Well, gotta go post my WIP and get off the computer...I think My Poor Hubby is feeling a little neglected. :crying:


04-13-2005, 11:41 PM
Hi people!!

Barb lovely sky!!
:clap: :clap: :clap:

Carey that is a nice underpainting. Wow!! :clap: :clap: :clap: That is my favorite Rembrandt. Looking forward to see your version of it.

I am here still looking and enjoying.

Take care guys,

04-14-2005, 11:59 AM
Jodi - Right now, I am working on the background detail of the castle. Since the detail is so small and the color is light, it doesn’t look like much right now. Still, I am sure that it will add quite a bit when the painting is finished. The castle is the focus of the composition and it will be nice if someone can see little windows and eaves on the roof.

Rose - It’s good to see you! Thanks for the encouragement!

I am looking forward to getting to a stage where I can post. I am just doing a section that is moving slow!

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-15-2005, 02:13 PM
Hi Barb :wave:

ther is a lot of detail in the whole painting. It seemed like the more detail I put ih the more I saw. What looks like "just some lines" from a distance, turned out to be all kinds of things... caves, trees. bridges, roads, and even a little man kneeling at the front of the cave down in the right hand corner.

I put in as much as I could but I finally said "enough" I don't think it is necessary to get everything, just the important details. Some things I am still not sure of.

Keep at it.


04-15-2005, 04:25 PM
Here is my latest! I worked on the areas on the castle in the far distance first and even put in the detail. Then, I added a transparent wash of burnt sienna to the whole landscape. I will be working on the detail back to front. Some areas seem to be burnt sienna with white added and some are transparent. There are also areas that are drawn in with a brush in burnt sienna - almost in the same style that he used for brush and ink drawings.

Thanks for the kind thoughts, Rose! :angel:

Jodi - I am going to have to look for the little man in the right hand corner! How fun! :cool: :cool:

Actually, the detail is one of the things that I like about these older pieces! But it does take patience (and time) to do! I agree, you can probably add as much or as little detail as you feel up to.

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-15-2005, 05:12 PM
Wow Barb- that's lookin good!
I'll keep watchin- you keep paintin :D


04-16-2005, 12:29 PM
Hi Barb -

Your painting is coming along well.

I'm still procrastinating :evil:


04-16-2005, 05:14 PM
I'm still procrastinating :evil:


Me too ! :wave: Hi All - still following eveyone's work :clap: :clap: :clap: - but just haven't had a chance to get started. :eek: :eek:

04-16-2005, 07:36 PM
Tina - It isn’t that bad! Give it 15 minutes! Actually, he is really efficient about his methods. He gets a lot of splash for every bit that he does.

Lorraine - LOL! Your going to have to hurry if you do this one! Maybe we need an award for those who do every MOM in the year!

But really, he isn’t as bad as he looks! He is flashy, but you can do! I found the Bouguereau harder!

The thing that I have found amazing is how the “Castle Landscape” is so much like a watercolored pen and ink. The detail is mostly in burnt umber and done very much like an ink painting. There may be some olive tones in the trees and a couple of other colors. But mostly it is burnt sienna and burnt umber!

The initial drawing was the hardest part!

I hope somebody joins in! ( Do you dare?????:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: )

Take care and see you soon!

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-16-2005, 07:46 PM
Looking in on all the great work here - haven't made a start yet myself :( ....:eek: running out of time on this one! (still got to finish the Vermeer and the Turner, and the Velazquez, and the Bougereau, and..... :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: )


04-16-2005, 07:55 PM
LOL!!! I think that you've got the best avatar yet, Dave!:cool: :cool: :cool:

You ought to see my collection of "unfinished" masters!! hehehe

I hope that you give it a try! I would love to see what you do!

Barb Solomon

04-16-2005, 08:42 PM

YOU LOOK MAR-VEL-OUS! :D I like what the plastic surgeon has done. (a little like Johny Dep though)


04-18-2005, 10:55 PM
Thanks, Nickel! Now for the trees!

I am still amazed at how much his painting is like a pen and ink drawing!

Barb Solomon :cat:

irish artist
04-19-2005, 05:49 AM
Looking in on all the great work here - haven't made a start yet myself :( ....:eek: running out of time on this one! (still got to finish the Vermeer and the Turner, and the Velazquez, and the Bougereau, and.....


Dave, I often look at my 'Masters' and think about trying to re-paint them to see some improvement but talk myself out of it. It's better to put a period on the effort (you learned what you could) and move on.

04-20-2005, 10:32 AM
Well I decided to do the 16x20 even if it will make my hair fall out! Now all I have to do today is put all the people in the boat.

04-20-2005, 11:44 AM
Here’s my latest. I haven’t gotten as far as I would like. Things have been pretty hectic for me! I have been working on the trees on the right hand side.

I have been using yellow ochre with a drop of ultramarine blue of the green of the trees. I have been shading the lighter areas of shade with a similar mixture that has burnt sienna added. For the darkest areas of shade, there is a bit of burnt umber added to the yellow ochre, ultramarine, burnt sienna mixture. After I had the colored areas blocked in, I drew the tree branches and trunks with a small watercolor brush and thinned burnt umber. It is really a fun little scene if you look closely amongst the trees.

Nickle - You’ve got a really nice start! It is really well drawn! Your sky looks great! :clap: :clap:

Good luck with adding the people! :cool:

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-20-2005, 11:56 AM
Barb, I'm amazing at your hand for delicate mixtures. It's really interesting to me to hear how you are working the colors . . . the panting seems to be emerging from within the atmosphere it's self! Okay, that sounds trippy, but you know what I mean. Needless to say, it's looking really great!



04-20-2005, 05:51 PM
Hey Barb- LOOKIN GOOD :clap:

Don't forget the little man down there by the trees, at the mouth of the cave! Hee, Hee :wink2:

Nickel- good start, better late that never! ;)


04-20-2005, 10:51 PM
Thanks David! I really appreciate the kind words!

the painting seems to be emerging from within the atmosphere it's self!

That is exactly what Rembrandt seems to have done with the original. I wasn’t able to keep the original burnt sienna layer transparent, but he seems to have put down a layer of color and then just vary it slightly in order to keep the whole thing unified.

Jodi - You are right! It would be a terrible shame to forget him! He is too fun! I will have to paint him in! Thanks so much!

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-21-2005, 04:33 AM
Love everyone else's work as well. They all look wonderful! :clap:

Barb, your painting is coming very nicely. I love the amazing sky you've done. It's so atmospheric. :) Looking forward to seeing your finished piece soon.

I would love to join this project. There is so much to learn from Rembrandt. Sadly, I've got works piled up at the moment. :rolleyes: I'll just see how things progress.


irish artist
04-21-2005, 05:27 AM
Well I decided to do the 16x20 even if it will make my hair fall out! Now all I have to do today is put all the people in the boat.

Ha! Ha! I've spent the last two weeks putting people on the boat. Feel like tossing off a few :evil:

04-21-2005, 11:29 AM
Thanks, Vee! I know what you are saying about having paintings piling up! When I finish this one, there are a couple of other paintings sitting around my studio begging to be finished! Thanks for giving us encouragement!

Irish Artist - Hang in there! I think that the detail is one of the things that makes Rembrandt’s final work so fascinating! I can’t wait to see your post! Good luck with everything!

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-22-2005, 11:58 AM
Tick… tick… tick… goes the hands of the clock… blue & yellow mixed wet = green… don’t want to use no drier… :music: :music: :music:

04-22-2005, 05:30 PM
I have been working to block in the darks so that I can start with river that is in the middle of the painting! I want to put in that before I make the final adjustments on the right corner (and add the little old man, Jodi :wink2: :evil: ).

Nickel - I like the basic drawing of your boat! Your stormy sky is fabulous and so are the sails on your boat! There are probably a couple of lines that you are going to need to make softer, but worry about that later! Good luck with adding everything else! You are doing a great job! :clap: :clap:

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-22-2005, 06:15 PM
Wow! great start Nickel looks very Stormy!

Barb- you're getting there! Are you having fun yet :confused: :D


04-23-2005, 12:03 AM
Jodi - Actually, I have always loved these little details! But this is going to take some time!

Nickel - I usually pick one reference as the basis for my color. Then, if I have some that I have changed to show more of the detail, it’s more of a matter of my knowing that things are there. It helps me see the small differences that sometimes don’t show up in printing.

Even then, it is something of a puzzle. There comes a point where you do the best that you can and call it your interpretation!

If there is any references that you need, let me know. I will be happy to put them up for you!

I think that the sky and the sails on your painting are wonderful!

Barb Solomon :cat:

irish artist
04-23-2005, 08:05 AM
Planning to do some major painting on this Rembrandt this weekend....tick-tock as Nickel says...racing to the finish line. So far I've just indicated the sky color and the figures-good staging for the finish coat.

irish artist
04-23-2005, 02:53 PM
Tra-la....Tra-la....painting stormy seas.....tra-la...painting scared to death people.......rescued by the blessed Lord.....Tra-la-a-a- :music:

04-23-2005, 06:21 PM
Irish Artist - Wow!!! You have definitely caught the mood and atmosphere of this painting! Your sky, sea and storm are fantastic. I love your sails too! You are doing pretty well with the people! Keep up the good work! You are doing great!

Nickel - I hope that you are getting lots of time to paint and it’s all going well!

Tra-la....Tra-la....painting stormy seas.....tra-la...painting scared to death people.......rescued by the blessed Lord.....Tra-la-a-a-
LOL!!!!! You are too funny!!!

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-23-2005, 07:31 PM
Looks Great Irish! :clap:

So you sing to yourself when you paint? That's cool... I talk to myself...OUTLOUD! " NO that's all wrong" "Oh Man" " That's better" etc.

Artist's WIERD :D


irish artist
04-24-2005, 08:01 AM
I sing when I exercise to take my mind off the pain....but in this case, painting all the people is real PAIN...but I'm getting in the mood...oh :music: landlord have you hordes of gold, eough to fill the afterhold-d-d- :music:

04-24-2005, 09:35 AM
Good luck with the people! I know that it isn't easy to keep patient while you are doing them. There is quite a bit of detail. When you finish, it will be one of the things that makes people want to look at your painting.

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-24-2005, 02:25 PM
Irish Artist - I got to thinking about what you were saying. What kind of brushes are you using for the details? I have been in a process of rethinking the brushes that I have been using.

I was reading in Frederick Taubes “A guide to Traditional and Modern Painting Methods” that our current style oil brushes were invented until the 19th Century. Hog Bristles were used until about the time of Titian -16th C. Until the 19th C, the brushes tended to be rounder. While I didn’t read it in Taubes, I remember reading that the handles for brushes became longer to help the artist stand farther from the painting and paint looser.

So for this painting, I have been using some of my smaller hog bristle brushes. I am always on the lookout for hog bristle brushes in the smaller sizes like #0 or #1 and #2. I have also been using some of my watercolor rounds. Some watercolor rounds will have the glue that holds the hair to the brush dissolve in turp or OMS, but so far I have been ok. It does make a brushstroke that looks authentic. It also allows me to use #000 brushes.

I don't know if I have yet made the best choices, but it has been something to think about. It still doesn't keep the process of painting this teeny-tiny stuff from seeming real picky!:)

Barb Solomon :cat:

irish artist
04-24-2005, 08:12 PM
Barb, I use whatever works, takes some expermenting sometimes. I do use sable, hair brushes such as could be used for watercolor, in fact I recyle my old watercolor brushes by banishing them to the oil studio down in the basement and have not had a problem with hairs coming out. But I buy the best watercolor brushes I can afford, asking for them as X-mas gifts.

There are also sables made for oils, that's mainly what I use. I use bristle for the first two layers but they don't make good detail brushes. The one I'm using for my details in this case turns out to be a mere stubble brush-bought to try out. It has like ten hairs sticking out barely 1/4 inch and I just kind of scrap the paint around with it to get the effect that I want. Oils are blendable and stay that way a long time-something you can take advantage of.

Too many painters load on the paint, stab at the canvas with big smears of paint and then spend all this time trying to control it. What for?? If you don't know where to start, get a dark color, a small brush and start by drawing on the canvas...soon you'll be all loose and able to pick out a bigger brush and be painting free.

04-24-2005, 09:53 PM
Thanks Irish Artist! You’ve got some good ideas about brushes!

I totally agree with your “draw it first” theory!

Taubes had a nice section showing his liner brushes. He had a shorter “liner” that reminded me of W & N’s Sceptre Designer brushes which was in a length between their “liner” and a watercolor “round”. He showed one of the typical liner or riggers. He also showed a brush similar to what Dick Blick calls a lettering brush. It’s a liner that is cut off bluntly at the ends.

None of the liners of course would be that helpful in either of these Rembrandt paintings.

But I did start thinking that I may replace my old “sable” oil rounds and finally realize that I need a set of rounds for watercolor and oil. I have some very tiny spotters that were originally used for photo retouching. Some of these sound like the little brush that you were using!

I have always loved paintings from the Renaissance to the 17th C. and it many of these do have extra small detail!

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-25-2005, 12:03 AM
I sing when I exercise to take my mind off the pain....but in this case, painting all the people is real PAIN...but I'm getting in the mood...oh :music: landlord have you hordes of gold, eough to fill the afterhold-d-d- :music:

Lookin' good i/a!
Arrrgh!! Those starmy Gallilean seas. I did most of the figures in 3 sessions and thought -hey, this isn't so bad -its all downhill. Now I kill hours and days going over the sails. Going over the sky. Redoing the sails. Fussing with the boat side. Touching up the sky. Detailing figures. Going over the mast timbers. Seeing that I missed the texture of the sails completely. Just threw up the rigging and exposed big errors in the sails. The rigging itself is full of value and texture detail i'll never get. Still have the left waves to do. And redo.
And he did it all without photos. The waves are just brilliant- he had to have made it all up.
How does it look? See my post of 3 weeks ago. Buuurn out.

irish artist
04-25-2005, 05:44 AM
Steve, yep, I've been thinking about the Masters not having cameras. It would explain some of the confusion at the beginning of this thread about the shape of the boat-Rembrandt made it up. I'm expecting the same thing that's happening to you-that the figures would only need touch-up once they were painted in. Mine are all set for just that and I'll be ready for the challenge in May.

Barb, if it works--use it. You will soon develope your own little secrets about--'how did she do that?' I also have liners and use them but you're right-they are not working for Rembrandt. I found that if I paint in a line using my short 'scrubby brush' and pick up a slightly bigger brush and blend the line toward the shadow; the line does the job and dissapears into the shadow part and is no longer just a line. When I reread what I wrote it sounds goofy but it works. (no, can't think of another way to say it) My painting teacher swears by a brush that he trimmed up himself. He takes a old brush, pulls or cuts the hairs out of the middle and uses it for grass texture in oils.

irish artist
04-25-2005, 05:56 AM
22x28 (tallest my weenie easel can take)
The four sessions so far -started mid-March. Some drawing issues with the shape of the boat and how the figures fit. (Issues in the software sense- they'd be problems if I could still fix them). Also the mast is a bent a bit to the right but I can fudge that yet. The rigging and the water are what scare the bejeez -uh- concern me.

Do you have an- up date on this, Steve, with rigging painted in? I'd like to see what it looks like. :)

04-25-2005, 10:04 AM
Hey I hear somebody talking,,,oh… that is Jodi, lol, hey Jodi,,, somebody is singing,,, oh that’s Irish Artist,,,lol, you always sing so sweet,,, smell something burning,,,oh that is Steve, lol,,, hey Steve,,, you’ll be ok,,, how bout some coffee to go with some of Barb’s blueberry buckle, lol,,, you do have some BB left don’t you Barb???? Ok, where are you Carey???? :O)

David, Vee, Good to see you both, thanks for dropping in and saying hi!

Irish Artist, Girl, you are ROCKING! Trying to catch up with you, hehe!

Well, here is a little update, got a full boat. Ways to go yet before they look like real people. But, it is hard to look real when you’re the size of a pinkie finger. No kidding.

04-25-2005, 11:18 AM
Nickle - Your right! With all of this painting, we need to keep up our strength! Here’s a nice blueberry buckle! I just made a another one! It does taste good with coffee! Would you like a slice? :angel: :angel:

It look’s like the people are nicely blocked in! Your painting is looking great! You have really done well with the colors! Keep up the good work! :clap: :clap:

Barb Solomon :cat:

irish artist
04-25-2005, 05:34 PM
I'M ROCKIN'.....CLOCK's TOCKING.....Nickel get out of that Blueberry Buckle and PAINT.....

04-25-2005, 07:33 PM
Barb you are such a sweetheart! And Irish Artist, I promise, who said I wasn't painting;lol, I only ate one piece! Your Rembrandt is looking good!

04-25-2005, 09:57 PM
Irish Artist - You have really caught the sense of sunlight in the painting! Your storm looks great! And you have done such a good job with the people I can sense them scrambling!

Thanks Nickle! I love the artistic smurf!

Barb Solomon :cat:

irish artist
04-26-2005, 05:32 AM
*groan* Oh no....too much blueberry buckle...my painting pard's turned blue, but at least he's still ready to paint :crying:

04-26-2005, 08:20 PM
Irish Artist- Great Rembrandt! :clap: You got them all in! They do look a little seasick though! :D I love your sea, it is really rockin and stormy. The color is great!

Barb- How is your landscape coming?

Nickle- You're looking a little " blue", too much buckle or have you been rocking in the boat with all those Disciples that you are busy painting? Ha Ha :D

The month is almost over, OH NO!!!!!!

I think this is more of a marrathon race then a learning experience. They keep putting harder and harder Masters to paint each month and the last one painting wins! :evil:

Who will make it, Who Knows.

Have fun painting everyone! You are all doing a great job. Whether you finish one or all doesn't matter. It's the experience of the doing that counts!


04-26-2005, 11:21 PM
Irish Artist - You like our new blue shop assistant! It’s good to hear that you are hanging in there!

Jodi - Thanks for encouragement! Hubby has had me out running errands and I hope to work on the Rembrandt tomorrow!

Your right it is such an wonderful learning experience however you go about it. And if you need a bit more time, I am sure there are still going to be people working away! If I don’t get busy, I will be one of them. :o

Barb Solomon :cat:

Carey Griffel
04-27-2005, 12:26 AM
Wow. Guess I'm not going to finish by the end of the month after all. :D

Sorry I never replied sooner to your nice comments, everyone...I kept thinking I'd have something for an update....and then I kept thinking...and kept thinking.... :evil: I have gotten some color in, but still a loooong ways to go!

Tina--Thanks for the super kind comments! Haha, I'm glad that I keep my artistic licence renewed. :angel: :p Are you going on yours? (lol, your painting, not your licence! :wink2: )

Barb...yours is looking just fabulous! You are such an encouragement to us all!! Mmmm...that blueberry dish still smells wonderful from over here!

Nickel--hahahahaha....ohhhh man, you know what? I frickin' love the Smurfs...and I collect those little figures! :D But I don't have that one!! :confused: What's up with that, anyways? :p I've been enjoying watching your progress here! ...And you always make me laugh.

IrishArtist...wooeee, is yours looking terrific! Those figures are really looking three-dimensional. I must say, I'm very impressed! You offered some really great comments, as well, that I'm sure I'll find useful.

Steve--can't remember if I commented on your work previously, but I sure remember that I saw it and loved it!!

Hmmm...we had a bit of thin participation this month, it seems, but all of us brave bodies are here plugging away still! ;) And, heck, maybe we'll still get some late stragglers! lol

:o Ahhh...well, we'll see if I can manage to do something this week! :cat:


04-27-2005, 12:38 PM
Well I took the day off yesterday..haha..too cold and cloudy...and my dancing mooses that inspire where out of town...so back to the goal of finishing...to take the pressure off here is a joke for you...

where do you take a seasick boat?

be back later...

Carey Griffel
04-27-2005, 12:57 PM
where do you take a seasick boat?

Haha, to the dock! :D

In the spirit of lightening the end-of-month rush, here's another one...

How can you tell the ocean is friendly?

Okay, okay, we can't turn this thread into a jokefest...but a little fun here and there is allowed, eh? :p


04-27-2005, 01:23 PM
Because it is always waving! Ha Ha


04-27-2005, 04:15 PM
Carey - It’s good to see you! :wave:

It is neat to see so many hanging in and still trying to do the Rembrandt! He is a challenge! Good work everybody!:clap: :clap: :clap:

Nickel - I have to ask! Dancing mooses? What are they? :D :D

Jodi - Good answer! LOL!!!! :D :D

Next month is Waterhouse. "The Siren" and "Destiny" are going to be the pieces that we are doing! :cool:

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-27-2005, 04:40 PM
Say Barb- I thought it was the Mermaid and Destiny? :confused:
Did you change your mind?


04-27-2005, 07:25 PM
Jodi - I stand corrected, and since people could think that I am talking about another lovely painting, I should say this painting is called "The Mermaid".

Here's a link to the list for this year's MOM's, for those who want to see what the paintings will look like!

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-28-2005, 09:17 PM
Carey you got it! That's such a corny joke but I just love it, your joke of how to tell if the ocean is friendly is cute. Jodi was fast to get the answer. Barb the dancing mooses is a spin on Greek Muses...

Ok here is an update, I am not gonna be finished for a while, the paint is just being paint...and you know you just can't rush paint...really having fun with the canvas and don't want the fun to end..

04-29-2005, 12:31 AM
Nickle - I must have been having too good a time imagining jitterbugging mooses!

You are really doing well with the storm! It’s looking incredible! Your figures are also off to a really good start! It's getting better and better! :clap: :clap:

I suspect that I am going to be finishing my painting while I draw out my Waterhouse! ;)

Barb Solomon :cat:

irish artist
04-29-2005, 05:31 AM
Excellent Job, Nickel!!!

The mooses and buckle have brought out the best Nickel!! :clap:

Barb, I'd just move on to Waterhouse and consider that you learned as much as you could from Rembrandt. If folks watching the paintings think they have to finish or else, then few would bother to try. A month isn't enough time to do a complete Master.

04-29-2005, 05:52 AM
Hmmm...we had a bit of thin participation this month, it seems, but all of us brave bodies are here plugging away still! ;) And, heck, maybe we'll still get some late stragglers! lol ~!Carey

Yes, you ARE all brave bodies - doing some great painting here. :clap: :clap: :clap: I'm just sorry I didn't have a chance to start on this one. I seem to run out of month very early on in the month :confused: You are all doing such a great job.

Next month the Waterhouse, and that one is a MUST for me ! :)

04-29-2005, 09:53 AM
Lorrainne - It will be great to see you joining in next month! Thanks so much! Everybody has really worked hard and done a really good job!

I enjoyed this enough that I may try another Rembrandt at a later date.One of his portraits would be a nice size project. There are also a couple of really nice pieces by his students that are in a similar style - they were considered Rembrandt’s at one time. I would love to do this one someday (even though it is by one of his students)!

Carey Griffel
04-29-2005, 11:46 AM
Barb--wow, I sure do like that one, too! I wouldn't mind trying my hand at that one someday, as well. :D

Nickel...glad to see you're having fun! In my opinion, that's what this is all about, more or less! :)

Well, finally got an update to show! Woohoo! I've just been doing the sky and the sea...the sea I'm not too conerned about, but the sky is another thing altogether! Mine is looking absolutely nothing like Rembrandt's. I feel confident that he did some dry brushing over dried layers to achieve those thin clouds. I'm trying to do that, but it's just not coming out the same. :rolleyes: Naturally. :p

IrishArtist...I don't think I've ever completed a MOM in a month...and it's usually a good idea to just decide enough is enough, I agree! Not everything has to be "finished", for sure, especially as a big point of these is the learning factor. And especially for those awesome people who do these practically every month!

...But at 36x48...I'd better finish mine sometime! :D ;)



04-29-2005, 08:45 PM
Wow Carey this is looking good! Are you going to finish it? You got in all the tiny people and your sea looks very stormy. I would love to see you keep going, but I understand that you could have had enough of it by now. Were you going to do the next MOM, Waterhouse?

Barb that is a gorgeous Rembrandt!!!!!!!!!!!! Why didn't you, or whoever the powers that be chose that one for the Mom this month? That is one powerful painting!!!!!!


Carey Griffel
04-29-2005, 10:35 PM
Thanks, Jodi!

Yes, I'm definitely going to be finishing this and posting it here for sure. I'm trying to finish the sky before I move on because I just know that once I get to the people, it'll go faster (er, right, yeah, at least that's what I'm saying now! :p ) and then I'll want to call it done, so I'm trying to finish the sky first and get it out of the way. Trying hard to follow what I think is Rembrandt's technique, more or less, so I'm doing the people last. My plan all along was to start with Jesus and then end with Jesus, making my process a little philosophical to how I'd like to live my life. :) :wink2: Painting is, after all, an extension of how we view life, isn't it?

Thanks for the encouragement! :) As for the Waterhose, I'm still undecided! I did one (Boreas) last fall and I've been meaning to do another, but not sure if I'll have time this next month! But even if I don't, I'm excited to see what happens with everyone else who gives it a try!


04-29-2005, 11:02 PM
All of the Moms were picked by a committee. We also needed to get a variety of subject matter. Rembrandt is such a versatile painting that he allowed us to have a couple of landscape subjects even though he did “history paintings” and portraits.

Also this may or may not really be a Rembrandt (and last that I heard it probably isn’t). Still, I love the piece and in a way it doesn’t matter. It is a favorite of mine.

My husband, Howard is out playing guitar, so I am busily painting away in all of the peace and quiet!

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-30-2005, 07:46 AM
Well whoever painted it, IT IS BEAUTIFUL!

Does Howard play professionally? You have a very creative family. What kind of music does he play? I love music, especially classical. Classical art, calssical music, classical design, I guess I'm just a "CLASSY" lady :D . My favorite is Rachmaninoff. I usually have the classics on in my studio while I'm painting. Puts me in the mood! :music: :angel: :music:


04-30-2005, 09:57 AM
Before we all disband for other parts I just want you all to know it has been a real joy painting with you this month. I do intend to finish this one, as I wrote in the beginning, and expounding a little, the visual message encourages my heart and soul. It is a labor of love to paint. I’ll post the finished painting.

Thanks to this MOM, I have an interest in learning more about Rembrandt’s techniques. It would be interesting if our painting Masters had lived today, they would all probably have a how-to-book or be featured in an artist magazine with their techniques for sell. Man, did they miss the boat, pun intended, on that opportunity.

Anyway, I was thinking about how am I going to paint these faces; they are pretty small. And as you can see, playing around I took a toothpick and just poked out the paint in their faces. I don’t really like the look, so I am going to fill the holes back in and do something else.

I was wondering how different in size the faces must be in comparison to the size Irish Artist, Steve, and Carey are painting. So I took two photos this morning outside, and used a nickel as a measuring tool. I have not color corrected the photos and maybe it won’t show as blue as the last post. Yep those are my toes, you can use them to judge the size of the whole canvas. Sorry about that, I know it is early for a Saturday.

It would be great to see your picture with a nickel next to Christ just for comparing. I know that others may not know the size coin our nickel is, but I think in this case, all of us painting the Storm and Castle will know. Also, Barb and Jodi, you both might decide to pick a place on the canvas and compare features. It would be really nice to see if you all would do this, it would help visualize the scale. Just as a reference I went back and documented the sizes we are all working, smallest to largest.

Nickel 16x20
Irish Artist 19x26
Steve 22x28
Carey 36x48

Barb 16x20
Jodi 24x20

Carey, your update is looking great, I like the sails a lot! Those clouds are a tuffy to paint. I haven’t gotten it right yet; just keep pushing that paint. :O)

04-30-2005, 11:03 AM
What Cute Little Flintstone Toes! :D

Boy Nickel, I am amazed at how much detail you can cram into that tiny area, WELL DONE! :clap: :clap:


04-30-2005, 11:56 AM
:clap: Good stuff here. Really impressed with the skill level displayed. Agree with Nickel about the forum stirring an interest in the masters' techniques. I got hooked a while back trying something here. BTW After much reading and thinking about the problem I had with mine--it was that fat and lean thing I think that created some of the difficulty. The other part was trying to draw with charcoal on that rehab surface. Rank amateurism stuff. Live and learn. Good struggles.


Carey Griffel
04-30-2005, 05:25 PM

And here's that nickel that you requested, Nickel! :p

Good idea to compare and give everyone an idea. There's certainly a difference, isn't there? :D Still, even the faces I'm painting are not exactly huge!

Good painting this month, everyone...so hard to believe there's only a few hours left to the month!



04-30-2005, 05:31 PM
I may have to keep the little “Rembrandt” girl in mind as a future group project someday! People would get a kick out of it!

Carey - Your painting is looking really good. There may be areas where you need to lighten a bit or add color. (In the sky, check the lights are darks. I love the way that he directs the viewers eye in the composition by using the highlights on the clouds!

Hang in there! It is really looking great! :clap: :clap:

I’m going to be finishing my Rembrandt and then I will try one of the Waterhouse piantings!

Jodi -He’s not quite classical more into folk. He plays a mixture of music- a combination of rock, folk and country and bluegrass! He has written a few of his own songs and has reworked spoofs of from others. Lots of people like his LONG rambling social commentary typle of humor.(Think Arlo Guthrey.)

Ginib - Thanks for hanging in there and cheering us on! I hope that you can join us for the next MOM!

Nickel - I am always looking for extra-small brushes. I love the 3x0 watercolor brushes for this! Most of your detail is really nice.

When you do the face, try to notice where the shadows of the faces are and what color they are. Look at the eye sockets for shadows, the top of the bump of the chin, maybe the cheeks, the nose. Of course, one side of the face is going to be in shadow. That will suggest the features. You’ve got great detail on the ship’s equipment!

Your painting is looking great! :clap: :clap: :clap:

As I said before, it’s going to be a little bit before I finish! And I will post regular updates until I finish. So if you are stilling working, just check in. I would love to see how it is going!

This has been a really great group! All of you have done really well! And trying to copy a Rembrandt isn’t the easiest thing!

Good job, everyone!!!!!!
:clap: :clap: :clap:

Barb Solomon :cat:

Carey Griffel
04-30-2005, 05:40 PM
Thanks, Barb! I *always* love hearing critiques from you because you have such a great eye...you've helped me so much in the past! :)

Part of my problem is my silly computer monitor...it's very, very dark and if I lighten it up, it seems to lighten *too* much and then I lose color. :confused: An example...I didn't notice that there was anything on the flag until I saw Nickel's version today! :eek:

So I'm having a hard time finding a balance between color and values in this painting. So...I'll just have to do what we all do, put my own interpretation to it! :D Computer monitors are tricky things! :p


irish artist
04-30-2005, 07:29 PM
Everyone is talking about 'finishing' their paintings and since we are all so intended, then I think I'll spend more time on mine also and post the finished version.

On the next one, the Waterhouse, I intend to use another canvas that has already been painted on, can anyone tell me how to prime it for the new painting? I don't want the image that's on there now to come to the surface, so do I just paint on the top and since it's oils then the image should stay under???

04-30-2005, 08:02 PM
Irish Artist - There's been a really good thread on this in the oil forum. More or less, you sand the surface of your painting really well. (This is not a good thing to do if you used lead paint!) Then gesso, the painting again and again and again..... until there is no show through. Some say 3 coats work and I have several where I had to do 6 coats.

By the way, how long are you suppose to wait for gesso to dry between coats. I know how long I have sometimes gotten away with.:D Is it just dry to the touch?

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-30-2005, 08:05 PM
Opps! I almost forgot to post!

Here is how far I have gotten. I'm at home tonight so I am going to see how far I get!

Barb Solomon :cat:

04-30-2005, 08:42 PM
Hello Everyone :wave:

Wow Barb did your painting get lighter in the center or is it an optical illusion because of all the darks that are on the canvas now? Tripped me out!
Your Hubby sounds neat! I like Arlo Guthry.

Carey- in reality when Jesus was on the boat with the disciples, there would not have been a cross on the flag. That was an iconic symbol invented by the church 300 years after Jesus's death. Remember, first Jesus and the Disciples were Jewish, (Something I'm sure Rembrandt knew since he lived in the Jewish Quarter) And "the church" was not established till after his death. At that time a cross or an "x" was a symbol of death and dishonor. The only religious symbol that would have been recognized, and appropraite would have been a star of David. Just in case anyone is interested. :rolleyes:

Irish Artist- I think that it's great that you are going to finish your painting. As far as reusing a canvas it can be done but it is a lot of work to get it prepped. You need to sand it to get it as smooth as possible first. Then you can gesso it , sanding it lightly in between coats. If the original painting is very colorful you may want to start with a coat of black gesso to neutralize the colors and then go to white gesso, or whatever tinted gesso you would like. You shoul let it dry throughly between coats. no shine or stickyness. At least a couple of hours. Longer if it is humid where you are. The Experts say 12 to 24 hours, till it is cured. Once you can no longer see ANY trace of the old painting or black gesso, then you can use it JUST LIKE NEW!

Have a good night everyone. :D


Btw- Nickel, I'm not sure there would any particular "reference point that would work on the landscape with a nickel. Maybe a dollar bill on the castle?

04-30-2005, 11:57 PM
I have been painting all evening and if I go by my clocks it is 5 minutes to 11pm. Did I make it? :evil:

I have really enjoyed painting along with the rest of you!

Thanks everybody for the good cheer and encouragement!

Barb Solomon :cat:

05-01-2005, 12:31 AM
Nickel - I used my flat and filbert bristle brushes for quite a bit of the painting. I tried watercolor rounds for some of the details. The largest of the rounds was a #5 W& N watercolor brush. I also had a #1 and a #000 and one that is between the# 5 and #1.
If I need a really big brush I would have used the bristle brushes.

Jodi - My studio has a HUGE picture window in it and it isn’t on the north side! There is quite a variation in light during the day! I try to adjust it in photoshop the best that I can, but there is variation. I think that today with me trying to squeek under the wire-it’s worse than usual!

Another nice Rembrandt is the a painting of a young Jewish man that Rembrandt did as a study for the figure of Christ in a religious work.

Barb Solomon :cat:

irish artist
05-01-2005, 08:18 AM
Thank you, Barb, for all the support while painting Rembrandt--you made it fun for all of us.

Thanks to Nickel for being such a funny sport. We all enjoyed you and your Rembrandt. Thanks for answering the questions.

Thank you Jo B, nice meeting you. Good luck finishing the Rembrandt.

See all of you in Waterhouse. :wave:

05-01-2005, 09:15 AM
Nice meeting you too Irish :wave:

I finished mine weeks ago! I'm sure we'll be bumping into each other many times. I don't plan on painting the MOM for May, too many other things on my plate this month, but I will be checking out how everyone else is doing.

Have a Great time painting your Waterhouse!


Carey Griffel
05-01-2005, 10:05 AM
Hey, still some more great info on this thread even though now I'm technically late. :evil:

Just a word on the gesso...not that I'm trying to knock anyone else's thoughts here...and sure, most of us aren't even concerned about this aspect of our art yet! :wink2: :D ...but unless you're using the "real" oil-based stuff, putting gesso over an old oil painting isn't archival. Basically it's like painting acrylics on top of oils. (At least from what I understand.) It's not a big deal if you don't care about things like that, though, and I know that it's not an issue for a lot of us here at WC, but I just thought I'd bring that up for any lurkers here, etc. :)

Nickel--you're very welcome! I know what you mean about the difference in sizes. Comparing our two paintings, I have more sea on the bottom, I think, and of course the ratios are a little off. ....I just put my picture on my computer next to the orginal one and flipped back and forth and it's interesting to see the differences between the two. I'm definitely far off in a lot of places! But of course that's no big surprise! :evil: But even so, from what I could tell, the faces I have to work with are still a good two to two and half-ish times the size of yours, Nickel...I don't envy you your upcoming task! Number 2 brushes for me have been working just fine and I don't think I'll have to use any smaller than that, at least for the most part.

Oh, and Jodi--yes, you are quite right about the cross, thanks for sharing that additional information. One of the things I love about these threads is that interesting historical details can come out in the discussions. It's intriguing to me how Rembrandt--and of course many other painters of his time--took historical things and then changed little things (like the flag) in order to be insync with his time period. If you think about it, that's not any different than what, say, filmmakers do today. They must change things here and there because today's "non-educated" audience demands to see certain things in certain ways and if the filmmakers are off in what is expected, then they are seen as wrong even though they are historically correct. Whew. I hope that sentence made sense. :p

The picture I posted yesterday is looking about ten times darker to me today because of my silly monitor, lol. Ah well, what can ya do? :angel:

But at this stage, my painting *is* quite dark in reality. It does seem to me that Rembrandt's paintings were fairly dark, even before he became involved with Carrivaggio's techniques. And the common belief is that he usually worked dark-to-light, so I'm *trying* to duplicate that. :p What a learning experience, for sure!

Of course, I've no doubt that a lot of the darkness/yellowing in Rembrandt's paintings today are due to the fact that his works are hundreds of years old!

It's always fun joining in on these threads, thanks for everyone's input at the various stages of the thread!


05-01-2005, 11:22 AM
Amazing work everyone !!!

Wow, I haven't been here for a few weeks. Trying to get everything prepared for a move and it's been a tremendous amount of work, ontop of my regular job, kids, husband, and art classes. So, I just wanted to stop in and take a look at everyone's finished works. FANTASTIC STUFF !!!


05-01-2005, 07:05 PM
Carey - Your right about the oil based primers! It is probably best to not reuse canvases at all. But, some ways are better than others!

And I have had paintings, that I really ENJOYED painting over!

If you think about it, that's not any different than what, say, filmmakers do today. They must change things here and there because today's "non-educated" audience demands to see certain things in certain ways and if the filmmakers are off in what is expected, then they are seen as wrong even though they are historically correct. Whew. I hope that sentence made sense.

You are so right! Have you ever seen a western from the ‘50’s - the hair and make up on the women can be funny when you think about!

Keep up the good work!

Tina - Thanks for dropping in!

Your moving? Hang in there! I hope that everything goes well!

Barb Solomon :cat:

05-01-2005, 10:36 PM
The latest bit was the LH waves, which were sort of once-you-start-you-better-finish wet on wet. I should probably stop here, but then again it never could really be finished. I will have another go at the sky. I'll post details when i can retouch the flat bits and reshoot. Too worn out for another Waterhouse. Maybe a Mondrian -got plenty of masking tape ;).

05-01-2005, 11:37 PM
Steve - It’s looking really good! I love the streaks of light on the right! The sails are fantastic and the crew looks really good!:clap: :clap: :clap:

Barb Solomon:cat:

05-02-2005, 04:35 AM
Steve, Steve, the mystery man.
You are such a good artist. Where is your website.?
What else do you do besides paint near perfect copies of masters.?

irish artist
05-02-2005, 05:33 AM
Great Job there Steve, the rays of light and the clouds are superb :clap:

05-11-2005, 01:39 AM
I've had enough. Its amazing after all that work to think he composed this with so little to work from. All the figures had to be posed convincingly, in scale, and lit believably without electric light. The sea and much of the boat are completely imagined. All on a much(?) larger scale and, unlike mine, scarcely showing a brushstroke. Kinda wore me out.
Oh and the green guy is of course the 13th apostle Zeligus, of whom the less said the better. (well he did it)

Biki I'd tell you about our international forgery ring but I'd have to kill myself, then you. :rolleyes:

05-11-2005, 04:15 AM
Biki I'd tell you about our international forgery ring but I'd have to kill myself, then you. :rolleyes:

ah - what a trickster you are.!!

(pssst - if any of you know anything about this Beckett dude, dob him in to me will you. :p )

irish artist
05-11-2005, 05:44 AM
"Pst.....Biki.........Can't dob in the Beckett dude.........sneaked around the far side of his house............Pst............he can surely paint...........scope out the new up-date.......Wow......." :D

05-11-2005, 02:52 PM
Steve - What an incredibly good job! You really did a wonderful job on this copy - you’ve got the color, the detail, everything! Good going!

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Barb Solomon :cat:

05-12-2005, 03:53 AM
"Pst.....Biki.........Can't dob in the Beckett dude.........sneaked around the far side of his house............Pst............he can surely paint...........scope out the new up-date.......Wow......." :D

:D :D :D :D :D

05-12-2005, 10:25 PM
This dobbing in -if it involves cozzies and a barbie -I'm in! :p

05-13-2005, 03:28 AM
This dobbing in -if it involves cozzies and a barbie -I'm in! :p

:D :D ok admit it, you are really an Aussie, right.? :p
(nobody knows cozzie, barbie AND dobbing unless they speak Oz.)

.... and you live close by, but are keeping undercover so i won't hassle the heck out of you to teach me to paint. :p

(btw - one of my fav authours lives in Oregon - David Jamed Duncan. You know him.?)

05-13-2005, 04:46 AM
Just looking in here - wonderful work, Steve :clap:

Oh and the green guy is of course the 13th apostle Zeligus, of whom the less said the better.

LOL ! :clap:

The guy in that spot in the original looks oddly familiar too ;)


Carey Griffel
05-16-2005, 12:15 PM
Very good, Nickel...that sky is a tough one, isn't it?

Mine's still sitting around. :) Done a bit of work on it, but I've been getting frustrated. Hopefully I can work on it this week!!


irish artist
05-16-2005, 05:38 PM
Way to go Nickel!! I haven't touched mine in a while, too busy with class work and the 'Mermaid' in May's Master. I don't want to do the next month's and may finish everything up at that time.

05-16-2005, 08:12 PM
Nickle - Your doing great! The colors are really lovely! And the boat is really fantastic! Hang in there! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Carey - It’s good to hear that you are still at it!:cool: :cool:

Barb Solomon :cat:

06-17-2005, 11:09 PM
Extraordinary works - everyone. Steve - amazing detail in your painting - breathtaking work.


irish artist
07-17-2005, 07:54 PM
Finally finished the Rembrandt, mostly spending time doing detail painting, and I still feel that I wasn't as close to the orginial as Steve.........but its done, I can do no more. :cool: http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Jul-2005/33516-Finish.jpg

07-18-2005, 08:40 AM
Congrats on finishing Irish Artist! I know you are happy :) It is a hard painting to recreate the mood of the moment, you did a great job painting that mood! Best Nickel

07-18-2005, 05:34 PM
Irish Artist -

Extraordinary !!! It's very beautiful work there.

irish artist
07-19-2005, 05:28 AM
Thanks Tina and Nickel, it was a challenge to finish....but its what 'Master of the Month' is about.

12-21-2013, 10:00 PM
Learn Rembrandt from this thread and books.Here is my first attempt for his self-portrait at 22 years old. Each steps were demo here (it took nearly 40 hours ...)I used white to spread it over on img 1615, it's like poison and no transparency as consequences ..... Anyway it's a study, please give your comments, thanks !!!!