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voltman
03-26-2005, 07:54 PM
hi,

i was wundering, where are 18th cent manuals on expression. (facial expression)

Le Brun, the principle of the Académie Française was mad about the subject, if i remember correctly, especialy because of his fascination in the new arising science of psychology;
As it was a custom for les Académiciens, (the teachers), also Le Brun created manuals; if somebody knows how to get it online that would be wunderfull!!!

manuals where made on: ancient clothing , the roman statues (there is one by the BRee, (Antwerp)) , mythology, and expression, not sharing these would be a great lost.

greetings,

voltman
03-28-2005, 06:55 PM
are u ignoring this thread ? :D x
i also posted it in arthistory and added some links to pics i found
what do you think.? http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260292

:clap: still a great forum here , cya :wave:

Biki
03-29-2005, 03:19 AM
This is a great question. Please, if you find out anything, do post it for the rest of us. :wave:

voltman
03-29-2005, 09:27 AM
This is a great question. Please, if you find out anything, do post it for the rest of us. :wave:

;) i will let u know, mailed to the whitcombe college asking where they got the material, no replies yet but i am sure they are very busy there too, The internet dont look like the best place to look for now, although i was hoping some of u might have some links to universatylibrabries or libraries in artschools: these manuals must have travelled the world allong with the history of the french académie, , :cat: ,

bjs0704
05-13-2005, 12:27 AM
I have found a couple of similar sorts of books in Gallica. It's in French, but you may be still able to use the search feature.

http://gallica.bnf.fr/

I had been trying to find one of the books by Jean Cousins who would have helped start the French academy. If you find LeBrun's book, let me know. It sounds fascinating and I would really be interested!

I'm sorry that it took me so long, it took me a while to get the website name.

Barb Solomon :cat:

voltman
05-31-2005, 11:08 PM
I have found a couple of similar sorts of books in Gallica. It's in French, but you may be still able to use the search feature.

http://gallica.bnf.fr/

I had been trying to find one of the books by Jean Cousins who would have helped start the French academy. If you find LeBrun's book, let me know. It sounds fascinating and I would really be interested!

I'm sorry that it took me so long, it took me a while to get the website name.

Barb Solomon :cat:


it"s there !! ; push rechercher; type charles le brun :; u need to print to see the quality ; thanks very much, i do have some notes on other french manuals , will check and see

acces to internet is hard here now , soon i will catch up reading all the beauty, tnks again bjs!!
greetings

bjs0704
06-01-2005, 12:53 AM
Voltman - I’m so glad that it worked out! I had really wondered if I had been of help! (I’m going to have to go looking for Charles LeBrun myself!)

What other old manuals are you looking for?

I’m really glad to hear that you found his book on expression! I’ve seen sections of the book and I am sure that it will be interesting!

Barb Solomon :cat:

Gia
06-08-2005, 11:28 AM
Hi, talking about facial expressions, this book is also a great reference, :wave: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195063228/qid=1118242671/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_0_8/202-8672188-8495803#product-details

bjs0704
06-08-2005, 12:03 PM
Another really great book about facial expression is Gary Faigin’s “The Artist Guide to Facial Expression”. It show the muscles and explains the major expression and what is happening with the muscles involved. It is a very handy book for the artist!

Barb Solomon :cat:

voltman
06-27-2005, 09:22 PM
Voltman - I’m so glad that it worked out! I had really wondered if I had been of help! (I’m going to have to go looking for Charles LeBrun myself!)

What other old manuals are you looking for?

I’m really glad to hear that you found his book on expression! I’ve seen sections of the book and I am sure that it will be interesting!

Barb Solomon :cat:

roger de piles "from the principles of painting", have only seen a few pictures from it on the net but it looked very interesting. Here is a link to an other one , i dont believe i have seen in any of the wunderfull listings;
you have to look for vanderpoel in these pages.

i like the way volumes are minimalized in very concrete shapes in the last link, to a drawingbook made by perrar or perrard . Untill now i am using the Richer anatomybook, but all additional classical info is welcome i believe.
http://www.marel.pro.br/eyesvan6.jpg
http://www.marel.pro.br/lipsvan.jpg
http://www.marel.pro.br/nosevan.jpg
http://www.marel.pro.br/mouthva4.jpg

has anybody heard of perrard? or perrar?
http://www.marel.pro.br/perrar19.jpg
http://www.marel.pro.br/perrar15.jpg

tnks again for the links :)

Nickel
06-28-2005, 06:02 PM
hi,

i was wundering, where are 18th cent manuals on expression. (facial expression)

Le Brun, the principle of the Académie Française was mad about the subject, if i remember correctly, especialy because of his fascination in the new arising science of psychology;


greetings,


Sensation and Perception Tutorials

Here is a small collection of tutorials and demonstrations related to our senses.

Choose a topic and have fun.

http://psych.hanover.edu/Krantz/sen_tut.html

Greetings to You, Nickel :)

Nickel
06-28-2005, 06:06 PM
Book titles listed for Charles Le Brun for your search are at this link, use the search function and you can search artist by name, Le Brun is listed http://www.worldwide-artbooks.com/wwb2_page.taf?_function=list&page_name=lead&UserReference=65143DD1E1941AAE42C1BB3E

Charles Le Brun at Musée du Louver

http://www.louvre.fr/llv/oeuvres/detail_notice.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673225696&CURRENT_LLV_NOTICE%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673225696&CURRENT_LLV_DEP%3C%3Efolder_id=1408474395181116&CURRENT_LLV_DIV%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302024410&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=9852723696500827&bmUID=1119993748084&bmLocale=en

http://www.louvre.fr/llv/oeuvres/detail_notice.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673225697&CURRENT_LLV_NOTICE%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673225697&CURRENT_LLV_DEP%3C%3Efolder_id=1408474395181116&CURRENT_LLV_DIV%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302024410&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=9852723696500827&bmUID=1119993748099&bmLocale=en

Additionaly, you may just search for Poussinistes, Poussinisme, or Baroque art

Also this may be close to the Perrar or Perrard you are looking for, maybe you may want to consider this artist

CLAUDE PERRAULT, 1613-1688, OU LA CURIOSITE D'UN CLASSIQUE (Claude Perrault, 1613-1688, or the Curiosity of a Classicist). Antoine Picon. Hotel de Sully, Paris, 1989. Copyright 1988. Organized by Caisse Nationale des Monuments Historiques et des Sites, Paris, in association with Delegation a l'Action Artistique de la Ville de Paris. Published in association with Picard Editeur, Paris. 304 pp. with 219 ills. 26 x 24 cm. LC 89-144884 ISBN 270840377X. In French.

Nickel

Nickel
06-28-2005, 06:10 PM
Last, and most likely the best information I found you may find a very interesting read is below, I have enclosed some of the article with link to entire article. This is quality information for beginning or further study of art. Nickel




THE LITERATURE OF ART BY E.H. GOMBRICH

Translated from the German by Max Marmor
(Translator's note: The following essay first appeared in the original German exactly forty years ago as the chapter on "Kunstliteratur" in the admirable Atlantisbuch der Kunst: eine Enzyklopädie der bildenden Künste (Zurich: Atlantis Verlag, 1952), pp. 665-679. It remains our most succinct historical survey of "the literature of art," and while the author modestly regards it as "pre-historic," informed students know it rather as a classic. The present translation, produced for the use of new students at the Institute of Fine Arts, has been revised by Professor Gombrich (while on summer holiday in the Austrian Alps!) and appears here with his generous consent. No attempt has been made to bring the story--which ends with André Malraux at mid-century- -down to the present; but at the author's request, a selective list of sources available in English translation has been substituted for the summary bibliography that accompanied the original version of this essay. That bibliography appears as a separate document on this home page.

Note: This translation was first published in Art Documentation, vol. 11 no. 1, Spring 1992.

By the literature of art we mean, on the one hand, the older body of writings on art, that is, technical textbooks for artists, handbooks and guidebooks for connoisseurs, biographies of artists and the philosophy of art prior to the evolution of the scholarly and scientific study of art [Kunstwissenschaft] as an independent discipline; and, on the other hand, more recent art literature insofar as it makes no claim to scholarly or scientific status.
All branches of the literature of art were cultivated in antiquity although, of course, only a fragment of this body of writing has survived. The technical textbook on architecture is Vitruvius' Ten Books on Architecture (De Architectura Libri X), from the age of Augustus. In them posterity found not only instructions concerning the classical orders, city planning and temple forms, theater acoustics and the construction of engines of war, but above all the advocacy of a profound theoretical education of the architect, combined with elevated claims to social standing. Though based in many ways upon Greek sources (which he occasionally cites), Vitruvius' is the independent book of a Roman, as his disparaging judgement of the decorative "grotesques" of his day, for example, shows. His influence upon posterity, especially upon Renaissance art literature, cannnot be estimated too highly. The biography of artists, which seems ultimately to derive from the Greek writer Duris of Samos (4th cent. B.C.), survives almost exclusively in excerpts incorporated by Pliny the Elder (d. 79 A.D.) in his Natural History. Books 35 and 36 provide a survey of sculptors, silversmiths and painters in connection with a treatment of stones, metals and earths. Many of the anecdotes that Pliny relates have become famous--for example, about the contest of Zeuxis and Parrhasios or about Apelles (whence the phrase "stick to your last"). But more important is the fact that Pliny describes the history of painting and sculpture as the story of a steady progression to a time of maturity and subsequent decline. In so doing, he set the example for nearly all subsequent art historical writing. Altogether, the influence of these brief chapters upon Renaissance painting was scarcely slighter than that of Vitruvius upon architecture: the critical judgements which he hands down were applied and transferred again and again to other artists.


http://www.library.yale.edu/art/ehgkl1.html

voltman
07-04-2005, 08:18 AM
thnks for trying to help out nickel, must say your suggestions have not brought up anything usefull; . We have the Le BRun Book!! thnks to bjs there is a link to Gary Faigin's book on expression. Maybe i shall post the perrard question in the arthistory forum, and if a usefull reply add it to the anatomybookpages in here. NIckle; Perrault is probably close, i read he was an anatomist, bt my guess is these http://www.marel.pro.br/perrar15.jpg differ from baroque methodes; does this not look more like a late 19 cent or 20 century solution?

i have mailed this guy here, a comicartist (always good draughtsmen) who listed some manuals on his site , http://www.marel.pro.br/
thnks again for the help i will post if i know better
:music:

dcorc
07-04-2005, 08:44 AM
A direct link for downloading the Le Brun book - as an adobe acrobat file, 4.93mb

ftp://ftp.bnf.fr/000/N0008496_PDF_1_31.pdf

Dave

voltman
07-05-2005, 09:11 AM
yes thats the one dcorc; here is a direct link the anatomy by richer ,, ftp://ftp.bnf.fr/020/N0205846_PDF_1_149.pdf
there is an other one on human proportions in galllica, and found some amazing stuff on ancient clothing, even a manual by rubens :)

just got mail from spain :) , the author i was looking for is named perard victor, the book anatomy and drawing (edited in 1932) its still for sale with dover publications. :angel: i could not find a pdf on that one so i will have to buy it

bjs0704
07-05-2005, 01:02 PM
Thanks for the link! I really appreciate it! You wouldn't be willing to give the link for the Rubens would you! :angel:

I am beginning to think that these manuscripts could be quite a treasure trove! :cool: :cool: :cool:

Thanks for letting us know!

Barb Solomon :cat:

voltman
07-05-2005, 03:52 PM
sure, with pleasure:
ftp://ftp.bnf.fr/000/N0008617_PDF_1_168.pdf

there is a very large part of text in this pdf ,all in french, if u cant read french u better not print the textfiles i suppose, will save u more then hundred pages.

the book was a pricewinner in a competition on re-editing old manuscripts printed in 1990 in LIlle (France).

bjs0704
07-05-2005, 11:01 PM
Thanks!

Barb Solomon :cat:

D'Lady
08-15-2006, 08:13 PM
Sorry to post to an ancient topic, but are these files still available somewhere? I'd love to be able to download them, but none of the posted links work.

voltman
08-15-2006, 09:14 PM
Sorry to post to an ancient topic, but are these files still available somewhere? I'd love to be able to download them, but none of the posted links work.

the Richer anatomybook has moved to a different url , a direct link to the pdf (images) is here now: ftp://ftp.bnf.fr/020/N0205846_PDF_1_149.pdf .

for French text of the Richer book and all other replaced links u can do a search : http://gallica.bnf.fr/

dont know how ur french is- some french words of use are:

- planches (images)

- Télécharge (load, download)

- Télécharger en cliquant ici
download click here

The Rubens book is still at the same location.

magnificant Pdf files, knowledge on the internet for study. I ll be glad to hear.

:p BOn VOyages!

D'Lady
08-16-2006, 01:03 AM
I have NO French. So thanks much for the translation -I've come to rely on the sketchy (sorry) results of Babelfish. :)

Thanks very much for the new links; I tried all earlier and couldn't get them to work. Then realized I'd forgotten to turn off my firewall. ;) Sometimes I'm an idiot. :)

D'Lady
08-16-2006, 02:13 AM
Since no good deed should ever go unpunished, here's (http://www.anatomydrawingsecrets.com/) a link where you can purchase a supposedly "lost" manuscript by Victor Perard. I haven't bought it; so I can't vouch for it. I really don't like paying for downloads -would rather have a hard copy, but ink for my printer is expen$ive.

If someone does purchase it, please let me know how you like it, and if you think it's worth the price...and the ink to print it. :)

voltman
08-16-2006, 04:01 PM
Since no good deed should ever go unpunished, here's (http://www.anatomydrawingsecrets.com/) a link where you can purchase a supposedly "lost" manuscript by Victor Perard. I haven't bought it; so I can't vouch for it. I really don't like paying for downloads -would rather have a hard copy, but ink for my printer is expen$ive.

If someone does purchase it, please let me know how you like it, and if you think it's worth the price...and the ink to print it. :)

The figureworks i 've seen of Perard are done in a style a lot like that of Vanderpoel (1930) Both methods are focused mainly on linework and shadowimage. I suspect the Perard book will be just as interesting studymaterial as the book by Vanderpoel (doverbooks). If i remember correct i have never seen are actual anatomical drawings by Perard,
Although The index of the book looks realy good; mailed my adress to receive examples but received a deadlink- and accessing the paymentpage does work! There is a lot about this add that makes me believe this could be a rip off! I would be very interested to learn if anyone purchased the book to see if it is real.

bjs0704
08-16-2006, 04:39 PM
I don't know how much text was in the original Perard book. A few years ago, I found a book "Anatomy and Drawing" by Victor Perard in the Barnes and Nobles bargain books. They had apparently reprinted it.

So make sure that you check Abebooks.com or Amazon for secondhand copies of Perard before you buy.

My copy has mostly drawing and charts with a sentance or two for explanation. I suspect other versions of Perard's work exists and second hand versions would possible be the most helpful. Check for Richard Hatton's Life Drawing Book too!

Barb Solomon:cat:

D'Lady
08-16-2006, 05:31 PM
Well, I purchased an old copy of "Learn to Draw" by Perard on eBay last night. The book was reasonable, but the shipping was high, so I hope I don't regret it.

We shall see.... :) If I like it, I'll buy some more.

D'Lady
08-16-2006, 05:42 PM
Has anyone had trouble downloading these? I tried for hours last night, but every time -and every file- stops around 40% and just hangs there. I tried one of the .tif versions, but only one page/picture downloaded.

bjs0704
08-16-2006, 06:25 PM
D'lady - Let us know what you think of "Learn to Draw". Sometimes an author is incredibly wonderful with one book and so-so on another. Sometimes they are great with everything. I love to hear what you think it's good points and bad points are!

There's a book with a similar title to mine, but, it is quite different, it has more explanation and fewer diagrams.

Barb Solomon:cat:

voltman
08-17-2006, 09:13 PM
Check for Richard Hatton's Life Drawing Book too!

Barb Solomon:cat:


Thnks Barb ,seen the cover somewhere and planning on searching/buying one.

The Robert Beverly Hale books are super too: "masterclass figuredrawing" and anatomylessons by the great masters"

i once seen a Eduard Lanteri's "modeling and sculpting the human form" and this looked like a vast source of very detailed information. ( a general resource like "Anatomie voor kunstenaars" by Rijkse & de Heij (dutch))
http://books.google.nl/books?vid=ISBN0486250067&id=yun1u2t8Ep0C&pg=PP2&lpg=PP2&dq=Richard+Hatton%27s+Life+Drawing+Book+dover+publications&sig=WyFp5rYecpJOqZ1Ghg_c_T4UKxk

there are a lot of pdf files traveling the internet on torrentsites; some good some splendid- great is that u can search and print what u need from ur desktop.

thnks again. grtz:)

bjs0704
08-17-2006, 11:18 PM
Hatton taught at the New York Art Students League just as Hale did.

The nice thing about Hatton’s book is that the whole book is available as he intended. It starts out basic and it teaches what should be in a good solid class. There is also a book about Figure Composition by Hatton which I’ve seen and it looks good, but I haven’t read.

I’ve got Hale’s books. And they are good. But one of them is a reprint of his papers that was published after he died. There’s a section or two that is a little jumpy and uneven.

I’ve read the Lanteri book! It’s great! A lot of people would like it even if they didn’t want to do sculpture.

Since the old academies use to want artist to be able to make clay models for working out compositions, it makes sense to look a Lanteri.

It’s always great to hear about more books!

Barb Solomon:cat:

D'Lady
08-27-2006, 02:46 AM
D'lady - Let us know what you think of "Learn to Draw". Sometimes an author is incredibly wonderful with one book and so-so on another. Sometimes they are great with everything. I love to hear what you think it's good points and bad points are!

There's a book with a similar title to mine, but, it is quite different, it has more explanation and fewer diagrams.

Barb Solomon:cat:

It arrived today. So far, I've only thumbed through it a couple of times; but my first impression is that it was intended for children. It has a couple of pages of instruction in shading/tone, then the rest of the book is mostly examples of various subjects. There is a handly two-page spread of the individual movements of a horse walking, a section on facial expressions, and a lot of examples of buildings, trees, cats, and dogs.

It's fun to look at, and some of the stuff might be good for a handy reference, but overall it's really just a children's book.

I also purchased an anatomy book by him, but it hasn't arrived yet. I hope it's more useful overall.

I never did get the darn Richer book downloaded, and last time I tried it was gone. :(

bjs0704
08-27-2006, 01:35 PM
Thanks for the review, D'Lady. I had the feeling when I read all the titles ABE has for Perard that he must have written quite a bit for hobby painters.

Barb Solomon:cat: