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donjusko
07-03-2000, 03:05 AM
If you ever wondered why the color wheel you were taught doesn't work, go to this page.
http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/othercolorwheel.htm

Any questions?
Don

bruin70
07-03-2000, 05:33 AM
i'll have to take a look on my crt screen, but here, on the lcd panel,,,looking at the overlayed color wheel,,,,,,the blue is too light(and looks blue-green anyway),,,and the color opposite the yellow looks like true blue to me. which means everything is out of place. plus,,,,this is light color ,,,,,not pigment color. and since we paint in pigment, this is a pointless wheel. now,,,i'll go to my crt screen.....{M}



------------------
"he who thinks he know all and knows nothing is king in a kingdom of one,,,,,or a critic" - {MILT}

Rod
07-03-2000, 05:51 AM
Red,Green and Blue are used in a television screen. Light is additive color mixing.
Using Pigments is subtractive color mixing, so that wheel is not any real use to artists,
Rod

bruin70
07-03-2000, 06:03 AM
hey rod! what's up! we just missed each other. scott needs instant message for this site! anyway....i'm looking at the wheel on my crt and the colors are off. that's not a good blue in any case. don, you would have to pull that blue opposite yellow and move it over to where the blue should be. then you might get something closer. rod,,,i'll try to get to chat...missed it.....{M}

[This message has been edited by bruin70 (edited July 03, 2000).]

donjusko
07-03-2000, 01:42 PM
Yes, Blue (MC) is the opposite of yellow. it is in both pigment and light. Except in the YRB blue color wheel where it is opposite Violet. Violet is the closest color to a true magenta which has no place at all on YRB.
This color wheel (RCW) is not pointless, it matches pigments and light. Are there any other colors you are having problems with?

No matter what it looks like on your screens, the light formulas are present and match pigments. And they work.
Don

bruin70
07-03-2000, 05:44 PM
well,,, then we're talking about two different things. because blue is not the complimentary opposite of yellow. blue + yellow = green . when two complimentary tubes of paint(blue+orange, red+green, yellow+violet) are mixed, you get a neutral brown color. mixing two primaries results in a secondary color. that's why you get green(a secondary color) from yellow and blue(two primaries). a more applicable color wheel can be mixed by squeezing out three primary colors on one's palette, and getting all the mixes in between. or getting a PRINTED color wheel from an art supply store.....{M}

donjusko
07-03-2000, 09:53 PM
Hi Bruin,
Brown is a color not a neutral, black, gray and white are. I hope we agree so far. I need to know that when I say neutral you are not thinking Brown as the darkest shade to be mixed by two complementary colors.

Think of shades of Battleship Gray, that's the dark you get when you mix two complementary colors from my pigment color wheel. It matches the YMC/RGB colorwheel perfectly.

In my color wheel we call Blue, Cyan. That stands for phathalocyane. Phthalocyan can make from Cyan to Green colors. It's the copper element with an atom taken out.

With Cyan (Thalo Blue) and Quinacradone Magenta I can make Ultramarine Blue. That's the color 'you' (the group of artists that are using the YRB colorwheel you are speaking for) are calling Blue. You have to agree, if you can make the color it's not a primary color.

Cyan and Yellow make the perfect Thalo Green in pigment, which matches Green in these colorwheels; RCW (mine), the YMC, YMCK and RGB.

In your colorwheel (YellowRedBlue) the Green you make by mixing Cad Yellow and Ultramarine Blue is not the same pure green I call Green. My Thalo Green and it's complementary color Quinacradone Magenta make a neutral dark, The
kind of dark that Green turns to in the deepest depths of nature.

Here is search engine for my site,
If you wanted to know about quinacradone, type the keyword word in. (I hope this form shows up in this post :)

Don

<form method="get" action="http://search.atomz.com/search/">
<input size=19 name="sp-q">

<input type=submit value="Search Color Course">
<input type=hidden name="sp-a" value="00081f17-sp00000000">
</form>

bruin70
07-04-2000, 05:29 AM
brown, in the context i use here, is "neutral" to all the colors that circle an artist's color wheel. but yes, it is a color. i understand that when you say neutral, you mean B/W and grey. no, i don't think of brown as the "darkest shade" of mixing two compliments. value is a seperate issue from color.

to continue on with definitions,,,,,no artist i know uses the words "cyan", "magenta",,,,these are words for printers, electronic imagery, etc. and when artists go to a store they select color by sight as there are many variations of say,,,,,,,,,,,,red. "hmmmmmmmm, this looks like a nice red,,let me try it." unless they're seeking a specific red.

this, btw, is how i judge your wheel. if an artist uses your wheel to find a yellow and it's compliment that will mix to brown, your wheel is showing a blue opposite the yellow....and the artist will surely pick two colors that add up to green.

as to mixing color,,,,we all see color differently. so, there is no pure green. there may be a green on the shelf that looks most like what i would consider as pure green, and placed on my palette, it would appear as pure a green as i want or need. but i mix my green in many ways. yellow+black, orange+indigo, raw sienna+ultramarine,,,,,,,and what i have been told is orange, all looks reddish to me.

the issue to me is about practicality of application. if a novice comes to me wondering about how to mix or buy green,,,,i tell them what primaries are, then i'll pull 'em over to the store and show them all the blues, all the yellows, and all the greens. because those are the choices available. buy him/her, a color wheel, because it most closely matches the choices they will get,,,and how to arrive at other choices....{M}


[This message has been edited by bruin70 (edited July 04, 2000).]

donjusko
07-04-2000, 02:02 PM
Your color wheel is dated and incorrect.
I'll go through what I'm saying again.
You call Brown neutral because all your complementaries mix to it. Mine don't, my complements mix to neutral gray instead of your Brown.
Using your YRB colorwheel Brown is the darkest color you can mix. Too bad.

"no artist i know uses the words "cyan", "magenta""
Yes, we are in the third dark age of art. Your part of the reason.

Yellow is the opposit of Blue.
As in the CHRYSOBERLE crystal.
CHRYSOBERLE, BeAl2O4, H8+, SG-3.74, orthorhombic crystal.
BERYLLIUM, standard yellow centering to brown crystal.
ALUMINUM, yellow is aluminum's home base, but color isn't really it's strong suite, it's the light tricks.
The "cat's eye" gem, it has an opposite color line of light inside, a pale ultramarine blue. Instead of just giving color, aluminum has an array of light tricks to perform with.

This means Yellow is two colors, light and dark, Yellow and Brown.
Mix Brown and Blue togather and you get a neutral dark.

"as to mixing color,,,,we all see color differently. so, there is no pure green."
I'm sorry you don't agree that the RCW and the YMC are the same. Thankfully others are more receptive when they see the proof.
Green is half Yellow and half Cyan, Deal with it. It can be made purely with pigments. Ult Blue and Yellow make an off Green that loses half the Green range, most everyone can see that.

Orange is 3/4 Yellow and 1/4 Magenta. Yes you can buy Quin Magenta, all artists should know of and have this color, it happens in nature.

Buy my color wheel and you will be using a new set of colors and your painting will look more like the colors in nature. By the way, could I see an example of your work?
Don

Miltz
07-04-2000, 07:30 PM
A few more things to think about here on the definition end. Pigments are the color they are because they absorb most wavelengths of light, reflecting those wavelengths which give the color its apparent hue. In a perfect world, with hypothetically perfect pigments which reflect only the exact wavelength deired, YRB would be a specific guide to color mixing (since you have spent a lot of time on this, why dont you let us know the exact wavelengths in angstrom units to the color model,Don?) But in order to get a pure secondary at full intensity, you would need another perfect pigment reflecting that specific wavelength only, because a mixture of our two perfect primaries will produce a matrix which reflects only half of each of the two primary wavelengths.
As far as using additive color models like RGB for pigments, Milt's quite right, this is apples and oranges, the two models give opposite results. Red light mixed with green light will result in yellow light hitting in the overlapping area. Useless and misleading information except for multimedia artists, set designers and some subtle glazing techniques.

What I am getting at here is that a color wheel is an abstraction, and useful as a conceptual tool, but no color wheel will deal perfectly with pigments, as there are no perfect pigments. All pigments reflect a complex piece of the spectrum, with extra spikes in areas away from the main segment of the spectrum reflected. The reason many complementary colors go a bit brown in mixture is due to these "impurities" in the reflected spectrum.

Then there is the huge issue of transparency of the pigments and their binders. Any color wheel that ignores this issue, and the issue of relative tinting strength of various pigments will not give perfect results. None of them do. The only way around this is to create a color system which allows only specific pigments with identical tinting strength and opacity. Like CMY! However, such a system is doomed to a limited "gamut"; without the black component of CMYK printing the prints look... (guess what!) brown in the dark areas.The available gamut of pigments available in paints is far larger than that of cmyk printing. It is also far more complex.

Also worth noting is that the color peception of the human eye is not a linear affair, we see certain wavelengths better than others. Hense the perceptual "distance" between two primaries for an observer is not going to match a mathematical average of the two wavelengths of light involved anyway.

In referance to the comment on shading the red apple on your web page, the color of a shadow is not a mere greying of a color with its complement (even if those colors were our hypothetical perfect pigments). In perceptual terms the eye will see the complement to the LIGHT color in the shadow, influenced by the color of the ambiant light surrounding the object (blue in the case of an outdoor scene with a clear sky, for example) and the local color of the object (the more ambiant light, the more of the local color shows through). Then there is reflected light and color from nearby objects, not to mention the reflective index of the apple skin which determines how all of these factors apply to the final look of the shadow. In other words, your shadow analogy is useless in determining the actual shadow color, the only tool useful in this endevor is perception. In other words, look closely!

This is why there is really no good substitute for experience in mixing specific colors on the pallet.Your color wheel looks more like a color system, which results (perhaps) in pleasing combinations of those pigments you have chosen to work with. I agree with Bruin that it would be misleading if it were to be viewed as an accurate model of how color works to a novice, though. The YRB model, though not perfect due to the complexities I have discussed here, is a safer alternative. But no color model in the realm of pigments is "backward" in any intellectual sense. Nor do such models really influence the work of any experienced artist I know. In the final analysis we paint how we see, and we all experience the sensation of sight differently.

------------------
-Mark
"The painter and the canvas are alone, and if the canvas does not fight back, it is meaningless."
-Edward Millman

bruin70
07-04-2000, 07:35 PM
don,,,,you just keep missing the point. artists choose by sight. yet you keep giving me chemical balances. and it's not artists who have to be educated. your site should be sent to paint manufacturers,,,,,THEY label the tubes of paint. no artist is EVER going to say " i need xyz2 chrome so i'll need to buy some yx3 and some tr3 titanium."

you're also missing the point about being an artist. you try to systematize color assuming that we all see, or will all want to get to some TRUE color. we don't. why are you trying to add scientific preciseness to a medium with heart? color sense is indivisual to every artist. and if you think that artists can still be creative with your system, then your system will still fail because artists will always fall back on their one true creative sense,,,,,their sight.

and if i want grey, i'll use black and white,,,,,,,,,,,,,it's easier. if any artist is listening to you it's because they are more concerned about finding a hook than doing good painting.

my site of ten paintings is in my profile, but here it is anyway. http://members.xoom.com/tootie1/
where's yours? other than the wheel site.....{M}

donjusko
07-04-2000, 09:24 PM
"let us know the exact wavelengths in angstrom units to the color model"

Just enter "angstrom" in the search tool above.

The visible spectrum is measured by a spectroscope in wavelengths, light travels 300,000 kilometers per second, each visible color has a different wavelength distance between peaks and valleys. Very small distances are measured in angstroms at 1/100,000,000 of a centimeter.

Visible light ranges from 3,800 angstroms for Violet to 7,700 angstroms for Red light.
4100 angstroms = Ultramarine Blue,
4500 = Cyan,
5000 = Green,
5700 = Yellow,
6000 = Orange,
7000 = Red,
7600 = Red.
This system explains the progression of
colors in the rainbow. It also matches the reflected light in my RCW pigment color wheel.

Another measurement system measures in nanometers, red being 7x10 [-7]m or 760 nanometers, the longest waves.

Red begins at 760nm, it's strongest and most intense at 600nm and ends at 460nm. Green is most intense at 520nm, it reaches from
425nm to 675nm. Blue ends at 380nm, it's strongest at 430nm and starts at 540nm.

"as there are no perfect pigments"
I disagree. With these transparent 6 colors I can paint anything in front of me accurately. Also notice each of these transparent colors have simular tinting strengths.

Quinacradone Magenta
Thalo Blue
Indian Yellow Golden
Indian Yellow Brown
Dioxine Purple
Thalo Green

On my site which Larry gave you above you would find 5 galleries with painting tips, a total of 150 paintings. There are three more galleries with paintings for sale. Here is one of them. http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/forsaleoil.htm

"The reason many complementary colors go a bit brown in mixture is due to these "impurities" in the reflected spectrum."

Impurities? I guess you mean the opaque base of which each of the colors in your YRB colorwheel is precipitated on.
The reason Cadmium Yellow and Ultramarine Blue mix into a green opaque color is they are both substratum colors and the yellow is
precipitated on an opaque base.
With opaque colors one can not make a neutral, only Brown :(

Have you ever seen a YMCK image printed twice? With the first two colors down being Yellow? Verry close to adding a black run.

"In other words, look closely!"
I know your not implying I don't look closely, The Red and Cyan neutral is only the starting point from which I work.

Milt's work is impressionistic and good, but no more colorfull or accurate then the styles he is following.

"why are you trying to add scientific preciseness to a medium with heart?"
"if any artist is listening to you it's because they are more concerned about finding a hook than doing good painting."

I disagree. Color is everything. Good drawing is basic. Color has come a long way since 1900.
Don

scottb
07-04-2000, 10:53 PM
Closing this thread in the Critique Forum, and moving it to the color theory forum, where it belongs. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

Cheers.
Scott

Miltz
07-05-2000, 02:38 AM
No, Don, the impurities I refer to here relate to the specific wavelengths reflected by the pigment grains themselves, though I did note the influence of the binder elsewhere. For example, if you were to set up a bar graph with the wavelength as the bottom line and the intensity of the reflected light as the vertical measure, on the graph from any given pigment you would have a grouping of higher bars at the wavelengths corrosponding to the color of the pigment. In a perfect pigment these higher bars would be in the form of a even curve peaking at the desired hue. The steeper the curve, the purer the color. In real pigments the bars representing the reflected wavelengths is likely to be far more chaotic, with little individual spikes of reflected color falling outside of the idealized curve.
This also is the problem when dealing with images under various light sources, since artificial light sources have similar spikes in the wavelengths that they emit. If your light source has a spike at the same wavelength as a pigment does, then under that lightsource the intensity of the color of the spike increases, contaminating the percieved color of that pigment radically. I am sure we have all experienced that one, particularly with florescents and their notoriously spikey spectrums.

By the way, were you saying that Indian yellow brown is one of the primaries in your system? (sorry, I can't check since the discussion was moved) Since brown consists of a series of wavelength spikes and curves in several areas of the spectrum, it is by definition not a pure color(single bell curve at the desired hue). Or is it there for convienience?

I am wondering if you use white in your work, Don, or if you rely on the white of your substrate? I couldnt really tell for sure from the images I looked at on your page, but it looked all transparent to me.

On the subject of mixing blacks, that is mostly a function of the transparency of the pigments used rather than their hue.

The contrast between transparent and opaque pigments is a integral part of much of my work, and one I would not be willing to sacrifice. The lack of that contrast is one of the things I dislike about watercolor.

Don't take this as a critique on the merits of your work as such, but I didn't see any evidence that your system of color mixing is contributing to a unique look in your work. While I agree that color theory has come a long way since 1900, color perception is right where it has always been, in the eye of the beholder. The biggest changes in color application have probably been in the new colors we have to work with (the organics). Do you feel that your color theory and pallet allows you to paint more realisticly or beutifully than Vermeer or Manet? Colors exist and operate only in relationship to other colors, they mean nothing until they are next to another piece of paint. It is in the understanding of those relationships that we, as painters, succeed or fail.

P.S. I have always prefered to say that light travels at 186,210 miles per second, maybe because of my anglo heritage, but mostly cause it sounds more precise and impressive. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/wink.gif

PP.SS. I can mix a dandy battleship grey with ultramarine and Cad orange,(yrb compliments) though your mileage may vary with the manufacturer. I do use white, though...

If you care, my site is at www.miltz.com. (http://www.miltz.com.) Come on by! Have happy 4th, Don!

------------------
-Mark
"The painter and the canvas are alone, and if the canvas does not fight back, it is meaningless."
-Edward Millman

[This message has been edited by Miltz (edited July 05, 2000).]

donjusko
07-05-2000, 04:35 AM
"No, Don, the impurities I refer to here relate to the specific wavelengths reflected by the pigment grains themselves."

I see, yes those spikes do cause brown. Isn't it true the more transparent the color the more even the curve?

"Since brown consists of a series of wavelength spikes and curves in several areas of the spectrum, it is by definition not a pure color(single bell curve at the desired hue). Or is it there for convienience?"

Indian Yellow Brown Side is a slightly translucent color with a mass tone close to Yellow Oxide. In it's under-tone with a clear medium it is close to Cad Yellow.
It will make a fine dark with Ult. Blue. Where as Indian Yellow Orange Side will make a fine Cad Red. I need them both. Some day someone will make a transparent color that looks like yellow food dye that will work for both.

TRANSPARENT YELLOWS

PY3 stable di-arylide = Yellow Lemon on barium sulfate, Gamboge, Indian Yellow
PY83 stable di-arylide = Yellow Deep, Madder Lake, Alizarin Crimson, Italian Brown Pink Lake.
PY83 stable di-arylide HR = Indian Yellow
PY153 dioxine nickel complex = Indian Yellow Golden & Brown, Gamboge, Indian Redgold, Sap Green, Indian Yellow Green
PO69 isiondolin = Yellow, Orange
PR 260 isoindolin = Indian Yellow Golden, Vermilion to Red Scarlet dual-toned
PY129 methin copper complex = Golden Green, Indian Yellow Green with PY153
PR101 synthetic iron oxide = Translucent Yellow to Brown


YELLOW PIGMENT COMPOUNDS THAT WORK WITH TRANSPARENT TRIADS FOR FULL COLOR NEUTRAL DARK OPPOSITION PAINTING


Transparent colors are precipitated on alumina, the oxide of aluminum present in clay. Other bases for these colors could be
cyclohexanone, wax, or an acrylic polymer emulsion.

PY153 dioxine nickel complex + PR260 isoindolin = Indian Yellow Golden.
PY153 dioxine nickel complex + PY42 synthetic iron oxide = Indian Yellow Brown.
PY153 dioxine nickel complex + PY3 stable di-arylide = Gamboge. PY83 stable di-arylide + PR101 synthetic iron oxide = Italian
Brown Pink Lake.

I would love to try PY153 dioxine nickel complex + PY83 stable di-arylide.
But the first acrylic color should be PY153 dioxine nickel complex + PY3 stable di-arylide on alumina, = Gamboge Synthetic.

"I am wondering if you use white in your work, Don,"

I usually start my stroke of with as much white in the brush as I will need to make two strokes of the color I want.

"new colors we have to work with (the organics)"

inorganics? :)

"Do you feel that your color theory and palette allow you to paint more realisticly or beutifully than Vermeer or Manet?

I think any good color photograph is truer to nature then either of them. I'm striving to be true to nature just as they were doing. Today I have better pigments and more choices then they did.

"I can mix a dandy battleship grey with ultramarine and Cad orange,(yrb compliments)"

Close but no cigar. Battlship Gray (neural #5) is made with Orange and my complementary color, Cobalt or Azure Blue.

I went to your site, I was inpressed!
This was a long fun letter, happy forth, goodnight.
Don

bruin70
07-05-2000, 05:21 AM
"Milt's work is impressionistic and good, but no more colorfull or accurate then the styles he is following."

don,,,exactly my point,,,but you never want to address it. EVERYONE is different. everyone SEES differently. and yet you try to quantify color. i have given you all the reasons why your wheel is impractical and always will be, and in a way that i hope any novice reading this thread would understand. and all you have countered with are equations....and implications that every artist doesn't know true color(except you and your followers).

at least now we know where you are coming from. art to you is a one gigabyte image with every pixel notated and copied by your formula. i was going to ask what you do about forms with their color changed by anbient light and color. but now i see you probably pixelate a photo for reference. this is fine for your kind of art, but you're just serving up an irrelevant color wheel to the experienced artist and confusion to the novice....{M}

------------------
"he who thinks he know all and knows nothing is king in a kingdom of one,,,,,or a critic" - {MILT}

bruin70
07-05-2000, 09:00 AM
don,,,i just came back from your website. i was taken aback. i expected to find a photo-realist, and what i saw was an artist no more or less interpretive than any other artist i know. clearly, the exactitude of your "perfect color program" needs an overhaul. and the flaw is you. because YOU have to interpret what is ,,,,,,,,,,,perfect. which brings us all back to what i've been saying,,,,,,,,your wheel is not practical.

so , out of curiosity, just because i'm curious, and nothing else.......how do you arrive at what you paint? by that i mean,,,you have a photo of yourself. what do you do to arrive at the colors you do? forget about the actual act of painting. you do some kind of spectral analysis of every color in the photo? you break that down to find what colors you need to buy? and how do you buy colors? the tubes of paint don't give you all the info you need. and the ones that do don't tell the proportions. and a color is different from one manufacturer to the next. and how do you go about getting the proper mix? and after you arrive at the color, do you do another analysis to make sure there's a match? so you'll need a paint company that suits your requirements. if you require the preciseness you mentioned, these are issues to be dealt with. it seems somewhere down the line you're going to have to eyeball something. and so now we're back to what i said. color can only be interpreted by each artist's nature. there is no right or wrong color.

if exactness is what you seek,,,let me refer you back to something i said before...i think you should pixelate your imagery, and copy each pixel to canvas. of course, once again, there will be flaws. finding a true photo is the first. all the photos i've seen are biased to either warm or cool, and generally don't interpret greys properly. and if you get by that hurdle, you'll have to go through a color matching routine. if YOU do it, well there's a flaw right there. so you'll need a machine. and i think maybe 1/4" squares are do-able, on a ten foot canvas.

and by the way. my work is NOT impressionist. another flawed human interpretation.....{M}

[This message has been edited by bruin70 (edited July 05, 2000).]

pixelscapes
07-05-2000, 11:59 AM
Having grown up under the evil regime of traditional RYB color wheel thinking, I can assure any novices out there that there's more to painting than color wheel analysis. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif A lot more.

About the only thing I really get from all of this discussion is this point: <strong>the final color look of your painting is entirely dependent on the colors you originally chose for mixing.</strong> That's basically a truism, no matter what school of thought you ascribe to.

Just buy and/or mix the colors that look right to you, on your particular painting, in your particular style. Yes, it's true that socalled "crystal" colors (as seen on a computer screen) are different from standard paint RYB. That doesn't mean the use of light, bright green "pure" paint colors is any more or less valid than mixing it from blue or yellow. It just depends on how you're trying to do it, and what you're trying to do.

Obviously Don feels that his lighter "primaries" (like cyan or magenta) work better for him than traditional RYB. I can see why, too... since he does so many tropical images, he's got a lot more cyan in the water, foliage, etc etc. All very vibrant images, etc. More true to life? I don't know about that...

Even so, all the chemical formulas and so forth don't do a thing to sell me on this claim (if I am interpreting Don correctly) that his particular 3 primaries can do the job for EVERYONE trying to make a painting, completely in lieu of RYB.

Is that the basic point you're trying to make, Don? It sounds that way...

For me to buy into any system as a kind of universal, "true" solution, I'd have to see it actually used to mix all the colors I might want. I know that Don's webpage already has mixing formulas posted (more on this below) -- but that's only half of the challenge.

Even if this system actually works in pigment form and if it could mix all the colors... then, if it's more difficult to use (requires extra mixing for example) or less intuitive than my old system, it's not really better. Perhaps if I'm trying to achieve a particular shade of greenish-bluish-magenta then those formulas are handy, but otherwise... not necessarily.

Seeing optical computer graphics mixes of colors on a color wheel on a webpage just doesn't cut it -- if this set of primaries is going to be judged useful or better somehow than RYB, people need to see the paint actually mixed as specified, then photographed or scanned. Mixing colors using Photoshop is completely different from mixing paint.

As previously stated, I know Don's webpage already includes mixing formulas for specific tones. For this system to work for painters and not just digital artists though, it has to be usable without formulas... the color wheel as presented in the original post really doesn't teach me anything about how to mix for a specific tone, except how to make the transition between Color Cyan and Color Magenta, and then to Color Yellow. Anybody can optically mix any two colors and get a range in between them. That doesn't really demonstrate anything to me. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/frown.gif

(Also, how would I get a deep blood red? I see orange on that color wheel, but that's about it...)

I also strongly suspect that although these particular primaries work for Don, it's mainly because his subject matter naturally has more cyan to start with (for example). It doesn't mean that those three primaries would really be a better choice for everyone. If someone whose work has a different color mood wanted to paint, he'd have to do a heck of a lot more mixing to make cyan do what he wants, compared to some other types of blue.

With regards specifically to this quote from Don:
"Milt's work is impressionistic and good, but no more colorfull or accurate then the styles he is following."

An artist's work is only going to be as colorful and accurate as he or she wants it to be. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif No more, no less. I don't think specific finger-pointing or implication of "lack of accuracy" with regards to a particular artist's work is going to do anything to "prove" or "disprove" the utility of a particular color mixing system.

Painters are taught (even in the old, oh-so-stifling RYB school) that there's more to getting the colors you want than strict RYB... that alternative pigments can give you a wider gamut when desired, in certain directions.

I understand that optically, yes, these three cyan-yellow-magenta primaries can mix more colors than blue-yellow-red can. But, assuming it can truly translate into pigment (and I'm still not convinced of that!) is it a better system than blue-yellow-red? Not necessarily!

<strong>The success of a particular color system can only be measured by how much it helps any given artist.</strong>

If one or the other is less convenient, or it's less able to meet the artist's vision, then it's just not as good... for that particular artist (not in general). Because of the fact that pigments don't mix optically, I'm not willing to make broad, general claims about a particular color system being "true" or "right" universally.

-=- Jen / Pixelscapes

P.S.:
... Dang, do I know how to ramble or what?
The main point is in the last two or three paragraphs. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I knew I'd get around to it sooner or later!


[This message has been edited by pixelscapes (edited July 05, 2000).]

pixelscapes
07-05-2000, 01:09 PM
Just to clarify my personal preferences...

Personally, I actually really enjoy vibrantly colored tropical paintings like Don's. If I were a painter I'd definitely go for all those sorts of colors. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif All you'd have to do is take a look at my computer graphics work, to see that!

Of course I also admire Milt's work (and that of many other artists I've met through these forums). I'm just more of a jeweltone-addict myself. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/wink.gif

Anyway, as previously stated, I don't think the work of specific artists is really relevant to what's being discussed.

My main point is simply to question whether any one pigment-based system can -really- be put forward as a universal "correct" one.

Thassall. Felt obliged to add this disclaimer. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

-=- Jen / Pixelscapes

Miltz
07-05-2000, 01:21 PM
I have a couple of comments here, Don.
You said "I think any good color photograph is truer to nature then either of them."
Not to sound sarchastic here, but which film is "truer"? Is Fujichrome truer than ectachrome? Kodachrome truer than advantix gold print film? Slides truer than prints in general? Different films produce radically different color statements from the same image. The images produced are determined by the dyes used in the film. Once again, with photography you are dealing with a very limited gamut as a result of that fact. Plus, in prints, you are dealing with variations due to the reciever papers and the printing process itself (haven't you ever had a lab color correct your prints for lighting condoitions, or auto correct the quality right out of your photos?) The gamut you can see with your eyes is way beyond what film can reproduce. Of course, if your aim is to reproduce the effect of the dyes in film, your system may have the desired effect.
You stated, Don, "Isn't it true the more transparent the color the more even the curve? No, not at all. Transparency and hue are independent characteristics here. A trasparent brown will have spikes in the Yellow, blue, and red regions of the spectrum (or cyan, magenta and yellow regions if you prefer), just as an opaque brown of the same hue would. The real difference in the use of the transparent color is when it mixes (either physically or opticaly, by interacting with underlying colors on the substrate) with another color. Transparent colors get deeper and richer when mixed because pigment particals throughout the binder continue to reflect their prefered wavelengths. Less ambient light gets reflected back because light continues to move through the matrix until it strikes the underlying surface, and bounces back up to the observer through the matrix again. At each partical of pigment it hits while traversing the transparent matrix, more of the non preferred wavelengths are absorbed, and less ambiant light returns. In contrast, an opaque pigment stops the majority of light at the surface of the paint, very little light travels deep into the matrix. More ambient light is reflected back to the observer.
Finally, in regards to mixing your netural grey, which orange would you use here? The word orange is way too vague, since the hue of cadmiums varies substantially with the manufacturer. And speaking of cadmiums, you cannot mix a cadmium out of indian orange yellow, because the pigment cadmium has a specific spectral signature, which is unlikely to be anywhere near that of another pigment. This shows up most in mixtures and under different light sources. What appears to match in hue under daylight will usually shift under florescents, as different spikes in the pigment spectrums react individually with spikes in the illumination spectrum. In mictures, the cadmium "hue" paint will react differenty from a real cadmium because in a mixture, the total absorbtion spectrum is an aggregate of the two sets of the component spectrums, with all of their individual spectral spikes amplifying or cancelling each other out.

By the way, I couldn't figure out what you meant by " I usually start my stroke of with as much white in the brush as I will need to make two strokes of the color I want." Sorry.

The organic pigments are carbon based pigments, most of the synthetics fit into this catagory. Most traditional pigments are metallic (cadmium, cobalt, manganese etc.) or earth pigments.

Gee, this is fun, isn't it? Hows the weather out in the pacific?

------------------
-Mark
"The painter and the canvas are alone, and if the canvas does not fight back, it is meaningless."
-Edward Millman

[This message has been edited by Miltz (edited July 05, 2000).]

Phyllis Rennie
07-05-2000, 07:38 PM
I'm not a pro but I have painted a long time. Not so long however that I've forgotten how frustrating it was at the beginning trying to match the colors exactly. One of my painting turning points was reading this statement. Have forgotten both the name of the book and the name of the author--but I remember the statement very clearly. It was, "if you get the value right, it doesn't matter what color you use." Since learning that lesson, there have been many times that I was unable to mix exactly the colors that I saw but was able to successfully finish the painting by concentrating on getting the values correct. Even though I use far too many colors to be considered a tonalist, I no longer obsess over getting the "perfect" color.

Your color theory is very interesting to read but, for hobbiests or beginners far to difficult to put into practice. Just my two cents worth--Phyl

bruin70
07-05-2000, 11:25 PM
"My main point is simply to question whether any one pigment-based system can -really-be put forward as a universal "correct" one."-

jen,,,it can't. and any one person's assertion that his is right and other's are wrong, ESPECIALLY WITH REGARD TO SOMETHING AS PERSONAL AS COLOR, is ludicrous....{M}

bruin70
07-05-2000, 11:27 PM
phyllis,,,,that was me. oh how you forget so quickly. but i'm glad now, that what i said has been elevated to the "printed book" status. btw, a tonalist uses black/grey in his palette. and it is his method to turn form. how many colors on his palette is unimportant, though by default his palette tends to be limited. a tonalist has a very strong sense of dark in his painting. not "moody" dark. but dark as the backbone for his drawing. using dark against light to pop his imagery. a colorist uses color (by this i mean other than black)to turn form. say,,,he turns red to shadow with a darker red, alizerin, and purple or blue....you get the idea....{M}

[This message has been edited by bruin70 (edited July 05, 2000).]

bruin70
07-06-2000, 12:23 AM
ramble on jen. just three guyz is a bit boring.....{M}

sgtaylor
07-06-2000, 12:46 AM
Assuming for the moment that there is such a thing as "natural" color... who cares?

I've been studying a Botticelli painting in preparation for a portrait I'm doing. Ya know what? His colors ain't nuthin' like natural.

Darned nice painting though!

donjusko
07-06-2000, 02:32 AM
"now i see you probably pixelate a photo for reference. Milt"
Are you baiting me? :)
I don't condone painting from photographs or making images up, I paint what is in front of me and expect my students to do so also.

"your wheel is not practical."
Practical? It's very fast an accurate.

"you do some kind of spectral analysis of every color in the photo? you break that down to find what colors you need to buy?"
I could do it that way, Scan a photo, read a color and my charts will give you the pigment or combinations of pigment to make that color but it wouldn't be for me. I already have my pigment palette of 18 colors that makes any color very easily.

"color can only be interpreted by each artist's nature. there is no right or wrong color.
BRUIN"
It's right or wrong only if you are striving for accuracy and missing.

"(if I am interpreting Don correctly) that his particular 3 primaries can do the job for EVERYONE trying to make a painting, completely in lieu of RYB. people need to see the paint actually mixed as specified, then photographed or scanned."
OK! I have it right here. I made up a page today for you that makes my whole palette with just 6 tube colors.

"(Also, how would I get a deep blood red? I see orange on that color wheel, but that's about it...)"
Here is the URL.
http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/mypigments.htm

I think any good color photograph is truer to nature then either of them.
"Not to sound sarcastic here, but which film is "truer"?"
I don't know.


"Finally, in regards to mixing your neutral grey, which orange would you use here?"
Any Cadmium Orange medium.

"By the way, I couldn't figure out what you meant by "I usually start my stroke of with as much white in the brush as I will need to make two strokes of the color I want. Sorry."
Well, I don't usually premake my colors unless it's for a big area. So I mix with my brush (sometimes on the canvas). If it's a tint I put the white on the brush first, enough to mix two strokes of the same color, than add the hue.

"The organic pigments are carbon based pigments, most of the synthetics fit into this category. Most traditional pigments are metallic (cadmium, cobalt, manganese etc.) or earth pigments"
You are right. INORGANIC- Minerals and ores are inorganic and inert.

"Gee, this is fun, isn't it?"
Yea!
Hows the weather out in the pacific?-Mark
Where I am it rains on and off pretty much every day and night.
Mold growing on oil painting is a problem but I solved it with two types of final varnishes.
Don

donjusko
07-06-2000, 02:51 AM
Hi Sandi, thanks for trying out my color wheel.
"(Thalo green/Diox purple mixed, equals black, not brown)."
They equal the ariel perspective color in the distance, a toned down Blue. Blue will show up farther away from you.

Thalo Green and Quinacradone Magenta equal black, a neutral dark not quite as black as a black pigment. Think of it as dark not dead :)
Don

bruin70
07-06-2000, 03:25 AM
""color can only be interpreted by each artist's nature. there is no right or wrong color. BRUIN"
It's right or wrong only if you are striving for accuracy and missing."

...and so you FINALLY arrived at the crux of this issue. YOU,,,,,,,,,,,,,are striving for color accuracy. and so this wheel is good for YOU. therefore is not right for others,,,and so therefore is not more right than any others. the only reason i was getting into why your wheel didn't work was because you were so adament about it being THE RIGHT WAY. personally, i don't give a frog's arss what anyone uses. just be comfortable with it......{M}

[This message has been edited by bruin70 (edited July 06, 2000).]

arcitect
07-06-2000, 04:56 AM
Wow, you guys are arguing about color wheels! I find that strangely tintilating! http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

donjusko
07-06-2000, 05:10 AM
"just be comfortable with it."
Thanks, I don't want to change your colors, your doing just fine. I think your strokes (like Sargent or Hals) are more important than your colors. We are different. I hide my strokes, you can't tell which brushes I use because I try not make two of the same in close proximity. To me color is uppermost. This is a technique that is comparatively new since the development of modern transparent colors. Yours is an old established style, good though!
Some day someone will combine our styles but they will have to learn how to paint with out black, to do that one has to be able to make many darks. That's where the new colors come in to play. There are a lot of colors out there to be captured. I like showing them off :)
Don

sandyartist
07-06-2000, 10:21 AM
"NEVER WORRY ABOUT THEORY AS LONG AS THE MACHINERY DOES WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO"
Robert A. Heinlein

"IMAGINATION, NOT INVENTION IS THE SUPREME MASTER OF ART AS OF LIFE"
Joseph Conrad

"IF YOU CANNOT CONVINCE THEM, CONFUSE THEM"
Harry S. Truman

"EVERYBODY IS IGNORANT, ONLY ON DIFFERENT SUBJECTS"
Will Rogers

"WHY NOT GO OUT ON A LIMB? THATS WHERE THE FRUIT IS"
Will Rogers

Amen. Sandy

donjusko
07-06-2000, 02:40 PM
HI Sandi,
75% of my work is in acrylics, the only color missing from the acrylic palette are the transparent yellows.

\m/
"If someone can think it, it will be done"
Don

Phyllis Rennie
07-06-2000, 07:57 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bruin70:
[B]phyllis,,,,that was me. oh how you forget so quickly. but i'm glad now, that what i said has been elevated to the "printed book" status.

{{M}} I read that statement about 15-16 years ago--I only joined WC this year. And as soon as I said it, I knew that you would claim the credit! But that's ok. You've reminded us often and for people like me who can be slow reminders are a good thing. If you do write a book, let me know. I'll put it on my wish list.

btw, a tonalist uses black/grey in his palette. and it is his method to turn form. how many colors on his palette is unimportant, though by default his palette tends to be limited. a tonalist has a very strong sense of dark in his painting. not "moody" dark. but dark as the backbone for his drawing. using dark against light to pop his imagery. a colorist uses color (by this i mean other than black)to turn form. say,,,he turns red to shadow with a darker red, alizerin, and purple or blue....you get the idea....{M}

Ok--I get it. I'm a colorist, definitely.

bruin70
07-07-2000, 12:17 AM
don,,,hopefully the two styles will not evolve to where they meet. hopefully they will remain as far apart as can be. \m/ that's shaka in font.....{M}

Miltz
07-07-2000, 01:50 AM
I'm a tonalist with occasional colorist tendencies. I am a rationalist, and since color and its effects are so irrational, it scares me. Therefore I keep picking at it, like a scab. Then again, I read Steven King too...
But hey, mold on a painting REALLY scares me! ARGHH! It's been too long since those years in FLA...

------------------
-Mark
"The painter and the canvas are alone, and if the canvas does not fight back, it is meaningless."
-Edward Millman

bruin70
07-07-2000, 02:21 AM
miltz,,,mold on my painting would drive me looney. i think scrubbing bubbles is good for mold AND mildew.

phyllis,,,that was still me fifteen years ago. i was very much ahead of my time.....{M}

VanAken
07-07-2000, 08:51 AM
Hi
I'm new to this forum and come from the color scientific community (not an artist). I have followed this thread with interest since my career has been with designing equipment and systems to measure and formulate color for the industial market of paint, plastics and inks. I am also responsible for the Munsell system which is a Color Order System developed by artist Albert Munsell in the early 1900's. He was probably a blend of all the personalities in this thread - he wanted a perfect artist color mixing tool (color wheel) that was of sound scientific principle. He never obtained both or his system would be widely used by artists today, but this is probably because the scientific community (OSA) took over the system and made it scientifically 'sound'. It's used today mostly to specify colors in industry and not too often as an artist's tool.
There are several comments that I have on the discussions:
The resulting color of mixtures of pigments is predictable within human perception after calibration of the pigments with a spectrophotometer.
The reverse is also true - any color can be 'formulated' from mixtures of combinations of pigments as long as the color is within the 'gamut' of the selected pigments.
The resulting color mixtures of pigments can be accurately displayed on a CRT (within its gamut) but the system must be calibrated and ambient illumination must be controlled.

The Munsell Site has a FREE tool to display color on the screen using Munsell notation, RGB, CMYK, CIELAB, XYZ as an input and converts any input to all outputs. The software can be downloaded at http://www.munsell.com then click on 'free software' (note:PC only).
The reason for interest in this forum is because I will be adding a paint mixing tool to this utility and I wanted to make it useful to an artist if possible since that was the original intent of Albert Munsell - make a tool that is useful to the Artist and still scientifically sound.


------------------

pixelscapes
07-07-2000, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by bruin70:
the only reason i was getting into why your wheel didn't work was because you were so adament about it being THE RIGHT WAY. personally, i don't give a frog's arss what anyone uses. just be comfortable with it......{M}

Yeah. What he said. As I'd stated earlier I'm sure that this works wonderfully for Don in his own work, otherwise he wouldn't be so convinced. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif If I were into painting now as I once had been, I would certainly experiment to see what system worked for me (and probably it would end up with something vivid like Don's color wheel, due to my own preferences).

It's just that absolutist statements like "your color wheel is incorrect" and "buy my color wheel" that are really off-putting, methinks.

-=- Jen / Pixelscapes

bruin70
07-07-2000, 01:54 PM
van,,,then if i tickle my image(formatted from a 4x5 transparency,)in an image editing program(paint shop pro, in this case), your utility will then,,,,,,,,,,,,,??? it'll be seen better on all monitors?.....{M}

donjusko
07-07-2000, 02:44 PM
Hi Jen,
You can tell I'm not a copy writer, and any good proof reader would have caught the negative implementations, but what is done is done.
I'll try to be more delicate. The YRB will not make the primary colors of the YMC color wheel but the YMC will make the YRB primaries. Which would you rather use? A system that ignores Magenta and Cyan (two of the newest and most useful colors) or a system that implements every color imaginable.
Get this colorwheel free at, http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/colorwheel.htm
or buy an autographed hard copy for $5. on my site.
That's the best I can do.
Don

Hi Van,
Thanks for entering this conversation, it looks like you did a lot of work. This may be a useful tool for the artist. The Munsell system goes to black. I noticed I could bring up the color chart and scale from one
chosen color to another. How could I arrange it so I chose both colors and mix complements together like in my colorwheel and adjust the scaling colors included in each choice? i.e.. Yellow must change to dark Brown and Cyan must darken to Ult. Blue's dark color.

Than Ult.Blue as a dark must meet the
dark of Yellow. These changes would meet the
criteria of my RCW. Could it be done in java?
Don

pixelscapes
07-07-2000, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by donjusko:
Hi Jen,
You can tell I'm not a copy writer, and any good proof reader would have caught the negative implementations, but what is done is done.
I'll try to be more delicate. The YRB will not make the primary colors of the YMC color wheel but the YMC will make the YRB primaries. Which would you rather use?

OK Don. I don't mean to be overly reactionary, either... I do see your point; however, my answer to "which would I rather use" will still be based on whether it's making work for me, or saving me from work. I think that that depends on the kind of painting I'm making. ("I" being some random artist.) Make sense?

When "I" is ME, Jen, then yeah I'd rather use those as primaries if I had to pick one set. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/wink.gif But really, I'd rather have more than three colors to paint with anyway!

In other news...
Yeah, there are ways to calibrate your monitor to reflect how prints will turn out. I have my monitor at home calibrated so the onscreen images look almost exactly like what prints. It doesn't mean that that image will look like the print to someone else on some other monitor though... the calibrated monitor is basically a handy tool for when I do my color-correcting. To most people it would look much too dark and yellowish, dull, for everyday use.

-=- Jen / Pixelscapes

donjusko
07-07-2000, 04:10 PM
About this page and messeges. A few days ago when I went to reply I could see the whole page plus the reply window. Now I only see the reply window and have no references to the posts. Can this be fixed?

Hi Jen, "But really, I'd rather have more than three colors to paint with anyway!"

Of course you would, all colors match up in the right place on the RCW, pick and choose your palette. Here is my palette.

White is in the middle.
The top of the palette from left to right is Bt. Umber, Dioxazine Purple, Ult. Blue, Cobalt Blue, Thalo Blue, Thalo Green.

The left side goes from Bt. Umber to Bt. Sienna, Red Oxide, Yellow Ocher, Naples Yellow (or Lead-Tin Yellow) to Magenta at the bottom.

The bottom row of colors is Magenta, Cadmium Orange, Indian Yellow Golden, Cadmium Yellow Medium, Gamboge and Cadmium Yellow Light is in the bottom right corner of the palette.

The right side is from Thalo Green on the top, than Opaque Green, Permanent Green Light, Yellow Green with Cadmium Yellow Light at the bottom.

It's just that you culd make all the colors with only three, these six would be even better.
Gamboge, Cad Yellow Light, Cad Orange Medium, Cad Red Light, Qinacradone Magenta,
Thalo Blue plus Lead White, Permalba or Ceramic White.
The next color added would be another hard color to mix in quanity, Ult. Blue. than Diox. Purple.
Don

VanAken
07-10-2000, 07:36 AM
Bruin,
"then if i tickle my image(formatted from a 4x5 transparency,)in an image editing program(paint shop pro, in this case), your utility will then,,,,,,,,,,,,,??? it'll be seen better on all monitors?"
No, the utility is only to convert from one color coordinate system to another and display the color on a CRT (Munsell, XYZ, LAB, RGB, CMYK). Color Management Software will calibrate a scanner, camera, monitor or printer for better color reproduction. There are many different versions of color management software ranging from free to $7,000 with an instrument to measure the CRT and Printer output. Color Management on a PC is in a state of flux today and is changing rapidly. Most design programs have color management built in to the program and don't rely on a "system' color calibration and programs like Paint Pro are not affected by a "system" calibration. I expect it will get all sorted out within a year, so until then make your own visual comparisons for accuracy of color reproduction.

Don,
"How could I arrange it so I choose both colors and mix complements together like in my colorwheel and adjust the scaling colors included in each choice? i.e.. Yellow must change to dark Brown and Cyan must darken to Ult. Blue's dark color.

My next version will display the hue circle too but I think you want something else.
This is what I want to add to the utility - mixing of pigments and resulting colors. I would need to 'calibrate' all the pigments with a spectrophotometer and then any combination of the pigments can be computed with high accuracy and displayed on the CRT. I have a version now that was used as an educational tool and it allowed the user to "squeeze" Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and Black and see the resulting color and the percentage of each color. This could be made to work with any combination of artist pigments.
Could you send me a list of the most popular pigments that I should include - I assume I can get them at a local artist supply store.

donjusko
07-10-2000, 04:45 PM
Hi VanAken,
Or is it just Van?

"This is what I want to add to the utility - mixing of pigments and resulting colors. I would need to 'calibrate' all the pigments with a spectrophotometer and then any combination of the pigments can be computed with high accuracy and displayed on the CRT. I have a version now that was used as an educational tool and it allowed the user to "squeeze" Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and Black and see the resulting color and the percentage of each color. This could be made to work with any combination of artist pigments."

OK!
Here are the pigment colors and names. The whole colorwheel can be don mathamaticly. 36 colors exactly.
The blending from light to dark is mathematical also. The dark color is the one that is different from the YMCK colorwheel because it doesn't go from the full color to a minus color directly. Red goes to the Reds (Red is the 7th color) dark which is a dark that just subtracts light. That color dark is moved to the dark for yellow, then the scale is made. Now you can find all the yellow's darker colors, ie. Naples Yellow, Yellow ocher, etc. all the way down to Burnt Umber.
This is the way an artist and nature sees yellow.
If this makes since to you there are other colors that make a color shift also.
Look at this page. You can get your colors from my color wheel, they are all mathematical and correct. The matching the tube colors happens in different parts of each arc so the pigment isn't always the first color in the arc and it could be in a tint of any of the scaled colors.

"Could you send me a list of the most popular pigments that I should include - I assume I can get them at a local artist supply store."

Here is the list of pigments and the RCW colorwheel divisions. If you make this java colorwheel it must be called the Real Color Wheel because it's different. I don't have to have a name credit but I want this colorwheel recognized as the one for artists.

http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/colorwheel.htm
Don

ameliajordan
07-11-2000, 09:19 PM
I've been using Nita Leland's color wheel and it has a magenta/cyan update to slip onto the RYB wheel. This way it shows the triads, split complements, etc. for the modern colors as well as the traditional. The technique that I've found most helpful is split primaries where you have a warm and cool of each primary and makes your mixes without crossing the primary line (i.e. mix greeny yellow with greeny blue, not with reddy blue) This system works for watercolor to make clear strong colors.

donjusko
07-12-2000, 01:42 AM
Hi Ameliajordan,
That color wheel is just a knock off of the color wheel taught to most people today. The twelve hue color circle developed by Johannes Itten. This color wheel is based on a triadic mixture of pigments with red, yellow, and blue as the primary triad.
It still uses the wrong primaries and tries to slip in Magenta but no Cyan.
Believe me you will like my color wheel better, for primary mixes, secondary mixes and split-complementary mixes.
Here's the comparison.
http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/othercolorwheel.htm
Don

digital dee
07-13-2000, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by bruin70:
i'll have to take a look on my crt screen, but here, on the lcd panel,,,looking at the overlayed color wheel,,,,,,the blue is too light(and looks blue-green anyway),,,and the color opposite the yellow looks like true blue to me. which means everything is out of place. plus,,,,this is light color ,,,,,not pigment color. and since we paint in pigment, this is a pointless wheel. now,,,i'll go to my crt screen.....{M}



Hi all,
This "Real Color Wheel" topic started by Don Jusko has prompted me to register at "Wet Canvas" and to chime in regarding pigments and mixing them.
I have taught art at the high school level from 1979 til 1999 in three New York State school districts. In 1986 our state curriculum specified teaching the
"new primary colors." While I and my colleagues were at first in disbelief it soon became apparent that magenta, cyan, and yellow offered much more tantalizing violets and oranges than were possible with red, blue and yellow. Furthermore, the complements made from opposite colors were true neutrals (not other ways of making brown). And finally, the fact that one could now create a red from magenta and a little yellow (but that one could not create a magenta) qualified this new color wheel as truly made up of primaries.
I must concede that at that time (1986) there were very few sources of art pigments (and especially academic sets) which public schools could afford to supply to students. So while the students were receptive---it wasn't always possible to demonstrate what we were teaching in practical terms.
Since then, sources for art supplies have become more abundant but some teachers STILL have trouble making the conceptual changes necessary. It is great to see this topic discussed so robustly! Thanks everyone!

donjusko
07-13-2000, 11:00 PM
Hello digital dee,
Thanks for the response from New York!
There's a lot more original color information on my site. It goes from the BC era to today. Including when pigments were first discovered and who were the first artist using them.
It also matches pigments to crystals and the elements responsible for colors.

http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/final.htm

Don

LarrySeiler
07-26-2000, 11:15 AM
The technique that I've found most helpful is split primaries where you have a warm and cool of each primary

This is how I think and use colors. I think the volumes on color theory can be reduced and used quite convincingly and satisfyingly simply by thinking in terms of warm and cool.
"Split primaries" ....I like that as a term Amelia!

Larry

[This message has been edited by lseiler (edited July 26, 2000).]

LarrySeiler
07-26-2000, 11:36 AM
It still uses the wrong primaries and tries to slip in Magenta but no Cyan.

For everyone's understanding...Don and I have gone around on this privately...and I think we yet respect each other very much. He knows that I respect that this as a system works for him and for others he has encouraged to try it. I maintain that if my use of the "wrong" primaries yet results in the work that I am doing, I see no need to think differently about the colorwheel.

Or...somehow my use of the "right" primaries yet in-spite of my thinking wrongly. There is a saying in physics that it works, because it works.

I'm waiting for anyone (and I don't mean that in an arrogant unteachable way) to convince me that my landscapes could be more colorful, more dramatic, or that my darks as darks could be better darks by changing my thinking about the basic colorwheel.

I trust my eyes more than rely upon a head knowledge of pigment labels. I pick what I think is a true warm and cool red, a true warm and cool yellow, and a true warm and cool blue. With these "split primaries" (thanks Amelia!) sitting around the colorwheel, I have many tools available. I am aware of variations I get mixing a warm blue with an orange, or a cool blue with that same orange...yet, the simplicity of the basic color wheel never escapes me.

For this reason...when I am doing an adult painter's workshop...and I go around, I don't grab people's tubes of paint to read the name/content before I can help them get the color they are striving for.

I simply look at their palette, and can see the warm and cool variations of each color there..or if they should have a color not there. In seconds, trusting my eyes...I mix what had been taking them 5 minutes or longer with frustration. As such, I see no reason changing my thinking is going to be of benefit to me. <FONT COLOR="Red"><FONT size="2">(note- I emphasize to me...because I do think Don's method works for him, and will for others, but is not IMHO as necessary as stated. If it were necessary...explain my work. Accidental? Lucky? -OF course I want to become a better painter...walk me thru this with examples of my plein air landscapes, and explain how I will improve by changed thinking). </FONT s></FONT c>

I am pleased for your sake Don, that New York's new educational standards vindicate what you've tried diligently to argue. Privately...I hope Wisconsin will not follow suit. I would find difficult teaching as an educator something to be better which I am not yet convinced of as an artist.

<FONT COLOR="Black"><FONT size="3">Larry</FONT s></FONT c>
My Painting Exhibits- http://www.artistnation.com/members/lofts/lseiler/

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"Art attacks can skill!"


[This message has been edited by lseiler (edited July 26, 2000).]

donjusko
07-27-2000, 10:34 PM
This Real Color Wheel will make any color except the primaries Yellow Magenta and Cyan.
http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/rcwmap.htm
Here is a small picture of it.

<IMG SRC="http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/colorwheel.htg/cw221x221.jpg" border=0>
Don

LarrySeiler
07-28-2000, 10:04 AM
So opposite yellow is blue? Wow...does that every throw a wrench into how I see and respond to color.

Perhaps it may be the real color wheel and may work for many...

Perhaps it should work for me....but, with a gazillion works behind me after 20 some odd years of painting, it confronts me as too great a risk. Remember me long after I'm gone as the dinosaur that coulda really been something...

Gosh....I pray Wisconsin doesn't follow suit with New York. To me...this is as difficult as if after 23 years of marriage, my wife were to suddenly tell me she was in reality a man. (no ill intended to make sport of such people, just that it would come as a shock personally).

I can see this working with "light"...but, as wholly unnecessary with pigment. Sorry Don, I do like you..enjoy your works. Don't take it personal, just pity and humor me!
peace,

Larry

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"Art attacks can skill!"

donjusko
07-29-2000, 12:05 AM
Hi Larry,
Don't let the Yellow to Blue opposition scare you, it's the dark side of yellow (brown) that mixes with the blue to make the neutral dark :) Opaque Yellow and opaque Blue still make a Green.
Don