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dcorc
01-30-2005, 10:13 PM
This month's Master is Joseph Mallord William Turner (1775-1851)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Jan-2005/30792-selfportrait.jpg

Selfportrait, age 24, (1799)
(oil on canvas, 29.25 x 23 ins)

Biography

We do not know the exact date of JMW Turner's birth, but he claimed it was the 23rd April, St George's day. His father, Willam Turner was a barber and wigmaker; and his mother, born Mary Marshall, was the daughter of a London butcher. Walter Thornbury's biography of Turner, published in 1861 claimed that she was a woman of "ungovernable temper" who ended up in the notorious Bethlehem Hospital for the mentally ill (or "Bedlam"), where she died in 1804.

The family rented a house at Maiden Lane, Covent Garden. Turner showed some aptitude for drawing from an early age, and his father proudly displayed the drawings in the barbershop window.

Turner's formal schooling was frankly inadequate, leaving him with an uncouth manner and poor pronunciation, which were to put him at lifelong disadvantage. Recent examination of his written notes, with their arbitrary punctuation, errors of syntax, and irregular spelling, have suggested that he may have been dyslexic. Constable, after meeting him at a dinner decribed him as "uncouth" but "remarkable for the range of his mind". In later life he was ridiculed for his poor public speaking, and despite his accomplishments, repeatedly passed over for a Knighthood.

At the age of 10, he was sent to stay with his uncle and namesake, JMW Marshall in Brentford, and it was here he is believed to have first started painting in watercolours, colouring-in prints of "Picturesque views".

In 1780's London there was considerable building work, and the 15 year old Turner became involved as an architectural draughtman and illustrator. Contacts made in the busy circle of Covent Garden, and much interest in his obvious talent, led to an introduction to the Royal Academy Schools in Somerset House, where the council, presided over personally by Sir Joshua Reynolds, accepted him as a probationer on 11th December 1789, commencing with cast studies, and proceeding to life classes two years later. This was the start of a lifelong association with the Royal Academy.

Turner was short, only 5ft 4in in height, but fit, and a keen walker - having travelled to Bristol in 1791 he explored the area widely on foot, making numerous sketches. A little later he was recorded as walking 40 mile round trips in a day out to Hertfordshire, to sketch.

Turner's watercolours had started out conventionally as colouring in of tightly drawn linework, but by the mid-1790s he was floating veils of pigment on the paper and scratching the surface with fingernails to re-restablish white, at this point he was travelling widely within the UK, to see and paint landscapes.

Turner's first exhibited an oil-painting Fishermen at Sea at the Royal Academy in 1796, having been exploring the medium for the preceding 3 or 4 years. Social advancement at the time was mainly a matter of patronage, and what we now describe as networking. At the age of 23, a year below the limit, he put down his name for election as an Associate of the Royal Academy, but initially failed - in the following year he made influential friends within in the social circle at Oxford, having been commissioned to make watercolours as a basis for engravings of scenes of the University. One of the Oils he exhibited this year of 1799 was the Battle of the Nile, Nelson's victory over Napoleonic forces which had occurred on 1st August 1798 - Turner in later life repeatedly painted such topical and newsworthy scenes, and did not shy from controversial subject matter, such as the practice of throwing slaves overboard to drown:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Jan-2005/30792-slavers.jpg

Having succeeded in being elected, he moved to grander lodgings at 64 Harley Street, and found accomodation for his mistress Sarah Danby, whom he had taken up with in 1798 (their relationship lasted until around 1813) - she bore him two daughters.

The Napoleonic wars were a great determinant of the spirit of the age, forstering a growing sense of nationalism and patriotism, within which landscape painting developed as a genre - the war also limited the opportunities for european travel, and in the absence of public collections of art within Britain, when a shortlived truce was declared in 1802, Turner took the opportunity of travel to the continent, first to France, and thence on to Switzerland where he saw scenery surpassing in grandeur anything he had previously encountered, and back to Paris where he visited the Louvre which had been stocked by the artistic spoils of conquest - "They who have returned with all the exquisite productions of ransacked countries look with cool indifference on all the matchless power of Titian's glowing tones because precision of detail is their sole idol" he remarked, contrasting the emphasis on drawing of the French academic school, with the livelier paint handling and colour of the British school, and of southern Europe.

Reynolds had suggested that quoting from the Old Masters was a way to add respectibility to new pictures, particularly in "lesser" genres, and Turner was influenced strongly by Claude, and by Titian.

He also painted massive watercolours of alpine subjects, including a 1 metre tall view of the Reichenbach Falls (where Conan Doyle would later set the fight between Holmes and Moriarty!), and plein air oil sketches (carrying paints in small bladders).

The importance of Britain's Royal and Merchant Navies had fostered a thriving school of marine painting - this had traditionally emphasised detail and accuracy, and some of Turner's paintings, such as his Battle of Trafalgar initially received heavy criticism.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Jan-2005/30792-trafalgar.jpg

Turner had speculated in stocks, and later in property, making tidy sums, which enabled him to extend his house and construct a purpose-built top-lit gallery for display of his works.

He was elected the RA's Professor of Perspective, unopposed, in 1807 (no-one else wanted the job) - He commenced his first lecture "The task must be entered upon, however arduous, however depressing the subject may prove, however trite" - although he should have lectured annually, he gave them only 12 times between 1811 and 1828, and then ceased lecturing altogether, until he was fired in 1837 after the report of a Parliamentary Select Committee on the affairs of the RA, which criticised him strongly for neglect of his duties!

After Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo, the joy at peace was short-lived as there was increasing civil unrest and radicalism spurred on by the economic depression due to the lack of the war drive on the economy, increasing mechanisation, and limitations on civil rights (only 1 man in 50 had the right to vote). Turner seems to have become convinced that civilisations and empires follow a pattern of rise and fall, and this became a major theme in his art around this time

While the Battle of Waterloo was presented as a major triumph of British national character, and jingoistic plans were made for its commemoration, Turner's response was to paint a sombre scene of the carnage after the battle, showing soldiers' women searching by torchlight for their partners among the tangled corpses on the field.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Jan-2005/30792-waterloo.jpg

In 1819, Turner travelled to Italy, which he visited for the second time a decade later, filling sketchbooks with drawings - in the intervening time he travelled widely around Europe.These travels were used to obtain source material, including scenes of Venice

His principle productions in the following decade included many of his most powerful maritime scenes, including the two we have chosen for this month's paintings.

Turner's 84 year old father, who had long served as his studio assistant and confidante, died in September of 1829, a severe blow to the painter - in the last two decades of his life, Turner became increasingly distressed at the deaths of those around him.

In 1832 he visited Delacroix, who, unimpressed with his appearence or manners (he was said to have become more unkempt after his father's death) declared him to be like an English farmer.

There was an interest in the social change and development of technology - he painted contemporary themes, included technological devices, such as the railroad, the steamboat, and the manby mortar - a means of firing a line to ships in danger of shipwreck.

By 1835, Turner was using the "Varnishing Days" before exhibitions to do much of the painting - in 1834, the Houses of Parliament had burned down - a spectacle which he had personally witnessed - the following year, his painting, when submitted was "without form and void" - a small crowd of onlookers gathered to watch as he pushed and smeared paint around, and pressed some mysterious roll of translucent waxy material into the surface!

He took to visiting Margate and his landlady there, Sophia Booth, became wife in all but name - many of his later sea views originate from that coastline.

His painting of the Temeraire, dating from 1839 was a critical success, unlike some of his other exhibited works which had come under sustained critical attack in the press - Turner left for the continent, travelling to Belgium, Luxembourg and Germany , where he painted over 100 small gouache studies, in addition to his usual notebooks of pencil sketches. On his return, and production of Oils for the 1840 exhibition, including the "Slavers" paintingmentioned earlier, came under particularly vitriolic attack, to the extent that only one of the seven sold - Ruskin defended Turner subsequently in his "Modern Painters" of which the first volume was published in 1843. Ruskin, however, was of the opinion that Turner was in decline after 1845 - but others state that his range of interests was as wide as ever, he had a series of meetings, incognito, with the photographer JJE Mayall, which were discontinued once the latter discovered his identity! He also followed the building of the Crystal Palace with interest. Increasing infirmity limited his travels however, and in 1846 he moved out of his house (which had become run down and chaotic) to a small house in Chelsea, where he lived with Sophia, under the alias of "Admiral Booth"

Turner's final exhibition was at the Royal Academy in 1850, but his 4 paintings were ignored in the furore which greeted the work of the Pre-Raphaelites at that same exhibition.

He died on 19th December 1851, and was buried in St Paul's, adjacent to the tomb of Reynolds.

A further post on his working practices follows, including some details about the two selected paintings, and suggestions for painting approaches.

(I will also write on two other aspects of Turner in due course - the breadth of his intellect and interests, and his influence on the Impressionists and on 20thC abstraction)

Dave

dcorc
01-31-2005, 09:51 AM
The development of Turner's Oil paintings was clearly influenced by his watercolours, by his exposure to previous Masters which he endeavoured to emulate, and by his travels, particularly to Italy, which markedly lightened his palette.

While his early Oils are in sombre colours and resemble those of Wright, Wilson and de Loutherbourg, he then painted sea-pieces in the manner of the van der Veldes, Italianate landscapes in the manner of Claude and 'historical' landscapes in the manner of Poussin.

The 1820s did however show a great advance in the technique of his oil sketches, showing even within individual sketches, a much greater between thin washes and a thick impasto which is often scored into by the brush handle or even Turner's thumbnail to suggest details of form. The second visit to Rome in 1828-9 resulted in still bolder compositions in pure colour. He produced a number of oil paintings, even exhibiting a small group in Rome. On the same visit Turner painted 'Venus reclining', an impression of Titian's 'Venus of Urbino' simplified into light and colour.

The idyllic, dream-like landscape, often of Venice, represented one side of Turner's late style. The other was the increasingly direct expression of the destructiveness of nature, apparent particularly in some of his seapieces. The force of wind and water was conveyed both by his open, vigorous brushwork and, in many cases, by a revolving vortex-like composition. In the unexhibited pictures these forces were treated in their own right, but in most of his exhibited works (the distinction lessened in his later years) they were expressed through appropriate subjects such as the Deluge or the Angel of the Apocalypse. In some of these pictures Turner used a colour symbolism, partly deriving from Goethe's theories, as in the pair of pictures 'Shade and Darkness - the Evening of the Deluge' and 'Light and Colour - the Morning after the Deluge', exhibited in 1843 with a specific reference to Goethe.
Turner had precisely 'the disposition to abstractions, to generalizing and classification' that Reynolds regarded as the great glory of the human mind, though in a form that Reynolds would hardly have recognised. Quite early in Turner's career his pictures were already accounted 'among the vagaries of a powerful genius rather than among the representations of nature'.

Unfinished paintings within the Tate's Turner collection are revelatory about his technique - one can see that his approach was to work on a white ground, sketching-in in light pastel colours with only vague form, building in thin layers - it is possible to see, in what were obviously intended to be worked up italianate landscapes, the characteristic features of the later work, which in the more "finished" earlier pieces was overlain by the darker glazed detail of the traditional 17-18thC look.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Jan-2005/30792-ital1.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Jan-2005/30792-ital2.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Jan-2005/30792-norham.jpg

Late unfinished seascapes show the extent to which bold diffuse forms were blocked out at an early stage, with areas of white impasto, often applied by knife, and scratched back into. These were used as crests of waves, foam, and clouds, and were often subsequently glazed over, or around. The vague forms were brought into focus with a few deft touches of detail. Diffusely vapourous regions were often smoothly applied and have a levelled appearance. Other passages show bold impasto, and brushes and other implements dragged through tacky paint, with an agitated surface. Turner freely admixed resins such as mastic, waxes including beeswax ansd spermaceti, linseed oil, and it is believed, egg-white (into white impasto), into his paint, in order to modify its handling, and used bitumen/asphaltum - the combination of these mean that often his works show considerable cracking, and some have required extensive conservation work for their preservation. An analysis of his "View of Venice" during its restoration at the Metropolitan Museum of Art revealed "The paint is applied in three distinct layers over the white ground: the initial blocking of forms is in a light tone, white in the main area of the painting and blue in the sky. A second layer of full-bodied paste was then applied, with low to moderate impasto; the third (top) layer, which carries most of the color, is very thin and appears to have been applied using megilp (mastic varnish added to linseed oil) as a painting medium, making it both transparent and easily soluble."

One characteristic Turner motif is the way in which he more strongly indicated the tops of forms, which fade diaphanously as one looks down - often on sees the paint has been pulled and blended vertically downward - another is the way in which light, and detailed shapes are virtually sculpted in impasto, which is then glazed over in colour and probably wiped back, akin to the appearances of impasto passages in later Rembrandt.

Turner was keen to get his hands on the latest pigments available and had contacts among the eminent scientists of the day, from whom he sought advice (including Faraday) - some of these choices turned out to be fugitive, however. He apparently insisted on using real ultramarine, however, even when synthetic became available at 1% of the price! Yellows were probably lead tin yellow, antimonate naples yellow, and chrome yellows - cadmiums were not available to him.

The MOM Paintings

The Fighting Temeraire (1839)
(oil on canvas, 35.8 x 48 ins)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Jan-2005/30792-temeraire.jpg

Large (1.1Mb) version available here: http://www.artrenewal.com/images/artists/T/Turner_Joseph_Mallord_William/Turner_Joseph_Mallord_William_The_fighting_-Temeraire-_tugged_to_her_last_Berth_to_be_broken_up.jpg


and

Keelmen Heaving in Coals by Night (1835)
(oil on canvas, 35.5 x 48 ins)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Jan-2005/30792-keelmen.jpg

Large (1.5Mb) version available here: http://www.artrenewal.com/images/artists/T/Turner_Joseph_Mallord_William/large/Turner_Joseph_Mallord_William_Keelmen_heaving_in_coals_by_night.jpg

(If these large version links don't work, they are the hi-res images on pages 1 and 7 of the Turner pages at www.artrenewal.com )


"The Fighting Temeraire, Tugged to her Last Berth to be Broken Up, 1838"
The 98-gun ship 'Temeraire' played a distinguished role in Nelson's victory at the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805, after which she was known as the 'Fighting Temeraire'. The ship remained in service in various roles until 1838 when she was decommissioned and towed from Sheerness to Rotherhithe to be broken up. The painting was thought to symbolise the decline of Britain's naval power. The 'Temeraire' is shown travelling east, away from the sunset, although Rotherhithe is west of Sheerness. The spectacularly colourful setting of the sun draws a parallel with the passing of the old warship, largely rendered in glazed-over impastoed white. By contrast the new steam-powered tug is smaller and more prosaic. Paint laid on thickly is used to render the sun's rays striking the clouds, while the ship's rigging is meticulously painted.

Keelmen Heaving In Coals by Night
A moonlit scene, adapted from his earlier watercolour of "Shields on the River Tyne", showing the noctural industry of Tyneside, in the wide estuary downstream of Newcastle, at the towns of North and South Shields, with boats being loaded with the coal mined in the area. The composition here is built on double diagonals converging to a point below the source of light, a plan based on the composition of Claude's pictures of seaports.

Dave

guillot
01-31-2005, 11:36 PM
HA - forum tag. You're it this month :D

Was going to edit to make #2, but then realized that this IS actually #14 in the MOM activities. I didn't think of that with January 2005 :o that it was actually #13 in the series.

Great job Dave, and can't wait to try one, maybe both, of the choices !!

You rock!! Great write-up !


Edit - Maybe I should edit January's to reflect the "proper" number? Or should we put like ..... 1 (#13) and 2 (#14) since it's 1 of 2005 but actually number 13, and 2 of 2005, but actually #14 ????

Is that confusing? LOL

Tina

dcorc
01-31-2005, 11:48 PM
Could think of last month's as #12a if people would prefer :D

Thanks about the write-up - Turner was an amazing fellow, there's lots more that could be said (and, as promised, I'll say a bit more later in the month!).

Dave

bjs0704
02-01-2005, 12:28 AM
Good job, Dave!

While I am still working on the January MOM and I am looking forward to giving this one a try! I have already started printing my reference!

Barb Solomon :cat:

artbabe21
02-01-2005, 01:10 AM
Just checking in on this thread hoping I can paint this month, awesome painting choices! Terrific write up Dave...look forward to this month! :D

Hi Tina, Barb, Dave!!

JKM
02-01-2005, 04:04 AM
Great Job Dave - That was a very interesting read. :clap:
This online gallery has quite alot of Turners paintings on display. Just thought I would share it with you all because I at least found it very interesting. :)

Turner Paintings (http://www.abcgallery.com/T/turner/turner.html)
http://www.abcgallery.com/T/turner/turner.html

Squib
02-01-2005, 06:07 AM
Excellent introduction to Turner, Dave. Looking forward to reading the follow up on him.

James - thanks for the link. There are quite a few Turners at the Ashmolean here in Oxford. I had a brief look at them last week when I was there, but will make a special trip this coming week to study them carefully before I start.

So - here we go again !!!!!!!

irish artist
02-01-2005, 08:05 AM
LOVE the selection, never painted in Turner's style nor a seascape. This will be a real challenge. Does anyone have any old sepia photos of such ships?

Fish<><
02-01-2005, 07:20 PM
WOW! This is fascinating! I am a newbie to the MOMs but I am going to give it a go. I love the little biography that goes along with each of these! Can't wait to get started.

Quick question... Is it just me or does anyone else have trouble with the link to the larger reference pictures?

<")))>< Keith

dcorc
02-01-2005, 07:32 PM
Hi Keith - we've known for a while, that, on some computers, the direct links to the larger ref pictures at ARC do work, and for others they dont - this is why I said above:

(If these large version links don't work, they are the hi-res images on pages 1 and 7 of the Turner pages at www.artrenewal.com )

- if you go to their "museum" page, look up Turner, and then find the images :)

Dave

rwhiteley
02-01-2005, 10:10 PM
Great write up Dave, really enjoyed reading it. There are some Turners at The National in DC, you have piqued my interest so much that I now have to go see again.
Ive no idea how to begin these, are you going to make a few suggestions?
R 2

guillot
02-01-2005, 10:16 PM
Just checking in on this thread hoping I can paint this month, awesome painting choices! Terrific write up Dave...look forward to this month! :D

Hi Tina, Barb, Dave!!

:wave: :wave: Hi Sweetie!! We miss ya. :) Hope to see you here this month.

guillot
02-01-2005, 10:18 PM
WOW! This is fascinating! I am a newbie to the MOMs but I am going to give it a go. I love the little biography that goes along with each of these! Can't wait to get started.

Quick question... Is it just me or does anyone else have trouble with the link to the larger reference pictures?

<")))>< Keith

Hi Fish!! See ya made it here. Good to have you on board :)

Tina

Fish<><
02-01-2005, 10:53 PM
Hi Keith - we've known for a while, that, on some computers, the direct links to the larger ref pictures at ARC do work, and for others they dont - this is why I said above:

- if you go to their "museum" page, look up Turner, and then find the images :)

Dave

LOL My wife always accuses me of having selective hearing. I read right through that. Sorry. :p

Thanks for the welcome!

irish artist
02-02-2005, 06:42 AM
I found an old book in my local libruary about Turner and it had the following story:" Everything in the natural world was subject for his brush--the sky, the clouds, the mist, the river and the raging sea, fire, water, steam. Above all he worshipped the sun, His is nature at its greatest. He fused the elements till form all but disappeared in the fervor of luminous color.
Once a woman was watching him paint outdoors. "I don't see it the way you do!" she said severely.
"Don't you wish you did!" answered Turner.

dcorc
02-02-2005, 07:14 AM
IrishArtist - if you do a Google Images search, using terms like "sailing ships", "hms victory", "galleon", "frigate" etc, you should find lots of images :)

- love the anecdote! :D

Fish - hmm "fish and ships" (sorry, it's almost lunchtime :p ) - as Tina said, "good to have you on board" (another nautical metaphor )

Raine - it's an extremely good idea to go see some Turners in real life if one's in the fortunate situation, as we are, to be able to readily do so! Looking at the painting surface is very informative.

R2 - likewise, go see them if you can -

JKM - good link! The best resource overall is probably the Turner section of Tate website, at http://www.tate.org.uk/britain/turner/default.htm
including the Collection - the canvases in the permanent exhibition http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/CollectionDisplays?showid=75 Browsing the individual canvases, you can read the same notes for each canvas as are in the real exhibition
see also
http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/BrowseGroup?cgroupid=999999998
and
http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/BrowseGroup?cgroupid=999999953

(should keep you busy for a while :D )

Tina, Barb, Cath :wave:

How to begin? - Looking at Turner's canvases, most seem to be about the same medium grain as current commercial ones, and to have a not-quite-smooth prepped surface - in places one sees a hint of grain, in other places the paint is built up sufficiently to smoothly obliterate the grain, and some areas show bold impasto (most if not all of the Tate ones have been relined, and some show flattening which I suspect to be "ironing" artefacts as a result of relining).

White-toned canvas, followed by faint wash-in of the composition was my own plan, based on what I've described above - have a look at this unfinished painting http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?workid=14879&roomid=2011 and you will see this approach - thin fluid paint here.

I've got a canvas 36x28 ins (i.e. about 3/4 actual size - aspect ratio's slightly off, but close enough) - I'm now going to put an additional layer of acrylic gesso on this by painting knife to decrease the grain, and this evening follow it by a thin layer of W&N Foundation white (a lean lead white) - I'll then give that a couple of days to dry before proceeding further.

Dave

Rosic
02-02-2005, 01:12 PM
Dave... you have done a great job organizing this project! :clap:

Moosehead
02-02-2005, 04:00 PM
I know very little art history, but I have read some on Turner, and indeed he was an interesting fellow. I gather Monet and Whistler visited Turner in England and were both quite influenced by him. I also gather, from the little I know, that he might almost be considered the father of or precurser to impressionism. It seems evident he was leaning this way. I'm waffling on which one to try, but I think I will give it a whirl. I'm a fan of Turner, and his contemporary, Constable.

soren1915
02-02-2005, 04:08 PM
Hi Dave,

Am I allowed to have a go at the portrait? or is that copping out?


Regards

Soren

Mo.
02-02-2005, 07:18 PM
Fantastic Dave, I can't wait to get started on this as Turner's style is so vastly different to mine, so hope to learn a lot.

I've got a canvas 36x28 ins (i.e. about 3/4 actual size - aspect ratio's slightly off, but close enough) - I'm now going to put an additional layer of acrylic gesso on this by painting knife to decrease the grain, and this evening follow it by a thin layer of W&N Foundation white (a lean lead white) - I'll then give that a couple of days to dry before proceeding further.

I've bought a canvas board 30 x 20 inches, so by my poor maths I figure if I tape off 1.1/2 inches each end on the width I should be near enough right as far as ratio is concerned, give or take a few 1/8th's of an inch.
I think I'll follow you on your intial gesso too, although I don't have W&N Foundation white, but I do have a flake white, would that suffice?

Many thanks.


Mo.

JKM
02-03-2005, 03:42 AM
Great Links Dave :clap: - Thanks
I don't believe it's the third of the month already :eek:

dcorc
02-03-2005, 07:17 AM
Jon - There's considerable interest in the idea that Monet and Whistler were directly influenced by Turner, and that Turner could be regarded as a "proto-impressionist" - Monet and Whistler certainly met each other, but I don't believe either of them met Turner (Turner died in 1851, Whistler was born in 1834, and Monet in 1840) - there's an exhibtion on the three of them which begins at the Tate on Feb 10th - I have the exhibition catalogue - and I'm intending, once I've visited the exhibition to write something up about it here, later in the month :)

Bernie - thanks! Joining in, I hope!

Mo - yes, your maths is correct - approx 20 x 27 would be good - scrubbing on a thin layer of flake white would be good too (I use a 1/2 inch household paintbrush for this, as the gesso isn't kind to the bristles! ) - you could stir in a bit of Titanium white to increase the opacity if you want (as the Flake, containing some zinc, and less "lean", is probably a bit less opaque)

Soren - the portrait, as an early work, doesn't really show either the range of paint handling, or the light palette and watercolour-influenced technique, of our two selected paintings (but if you're really keen to have a go at the portrait and not at the marine paintings, we'd certainly like to see your progress :) )

JKM - you think time flies? Wait 'til you get to my advanced age! (almost 45 ! :eek: :D )

I've bought myself some goodies to play with, for this painting - Roberson's, and (Roberson's version of) Maroger's, mediums; and some beeswax; in addition to Foundation, and Cremnitz, white.

Dave

Moosehead
02-03-2005, 09:43 AM
Turner died in 1851, Whistler was born in 1834, and Monet in 1840) - there's an exhibtion on the three of them which begins at the Tate on Feb 10th - I have the exhibition catalogue - and I'm intending, once I've visited the exhibition to write something up about it here, later in the month

I guess I should have re-checked my facts. Duhh!

I had read a book on Turner, Whistler and Monet-I think based on this travelling exhibition to which you are referring. I thought I recalled reading about Whistler and Monet travelling to England-perhaps they looked at Turner's work while they were there, I doubt they travelled there to meet Turner when they were young kids :D :D .

Mo.
02-03-2005, 06:20 PM
Thanks Dave, you know you are just a youngster, not old at all, only 9 years older than my daughter, so that should give you a good idea of how young I am. :wink2:

yes, your maths is correct - approx 20 x 27 would be good - scrubbing on a thin layer of flake white would be good too (I use a 1/2 inch household paintbrush for this, as the gesso isn't kind to the bristles! ) - you could stir in a bit of Titanium white to increase the opacity if you want (as the Flake, containing some zinc, and less "lean", is probably a bit less opaque)

My canvas is all prepared, I used a sponge to apply the gesso (3 layers)which has dried out nice and smooth, I've now applied the mix of flake and titanium, once dry I'll be getting stuck in.

One question, what is the beeswax for?

Mo.

guillot
02-04-2005, 11:11 AM
One question, what is the beeswax for?

Mo.

Hi Mo. Beeswax can be used to help hold the form in a stroke - it "stiffens" the paint a bit. Some people use it as a final layer, because you can "buff" it (with a soft cloth) and get a nice final coat, like a varnish.

Tina

rwhiteley
02-04-2005, 02:56 PM
Got started yesterday. Gessoed two 18x24, which are also close enough to the dimensions. Per Dave , used a knife to get a varied surface. Did a detailed drawing of the ship on paper then transfered to canvas, measuring where it should be. Roughed in the remaining objects. Then washed in sky and sea colors as near as I could get to Turners. I think I will have to make several washes, and probably apply white and start over in some areas.

(I also forced myself to start the drawing of my Grandson JB for a portrait; a separate thread, here http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248574 )

Heres where I am at this early stage. This should be fun :)
R2

JKM
02-04-2005, 03:07 PM
Hi R2 - This is looking good. I have been waiting for someone to start as I was curious as to which way people were going to tackle it and make a start. Looking good though.

Mo.
02-04-2005, 06:27 PM
Thanks Tina.
Beeswax can be used to help hold the form in a stroke - it "stiffens" the paint a bit. Some people use it as a final layer, because you can "buff" it (with a soft cloth) and get a nice final coat, like a varnish.

I've learnt something new today, about using it with the paint that is.
In the past I have used beeswax for the final coat instead of varnish, it does give a lovely satiny finish I agree with that.

R2 you are going great guns with yours, it's looking great. I'm still waiting for my canvas to harden off before I start, hopefully soon.

Mo.

dcorc
02-04-2005, 07:54 PM
Mo - as Tina said, beeswax can be added to paint to change its handling, and make it stiffer and retain brushwork - that's why I got it - too much though, and the paint remains susceptible to solvents, or heating, subsequently - I'm intending to play around with various things to achieve impasto - I'll give more details as I go :)

Richard2 - excellent start on the Temeraire

JKM - so are you going to have a go, young sir?

I've also just been giving my white priming a chance to dry reasonably (that's my excuse, anyway! :p ) I'll make a start on it tomorrow morning.

There's a very good description of an approach on John Hagan's site - which fits in with what I have suggested above http://www.geocities.com/~jlhagan/lessons/light3.htm

Has anyone read Joyce Townsend's book on "Turner's painting techniques" - I hope to finally have my hands on a copy in the course of the next week.

Dave

JKM
02-05-2005, 01:04 PM
Ok then - heres my start: I am a bit hesitant to post it but I promised so here it is. I have only blocked in basic colours so far. The colours are slightly exagerated on the screen.

Mo.
02-05-2005, 04:41 PM
Hi James, no need to be hestitant with this, you are off to a great start there, those colours are glowing, what size is it?

I got caught up watching the rugby today,dare I mention that Wales won!!!! :evil: :D so hope to start mine tomorrow, for today I did a freehand pencil sketch of the ship so as to get into the mood, using callipers for scaling up.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Feb-2005/5154-DSCF0013.JPG
I think this the very first ship I've ever attempted.

Cheers,
Mo.

dcorc
02-06-2005, 05:38 AM
James - a very good start - I suspect this is probably the way Turner commenced this, as what he called a "coloured beginning" with a general statement of broad colours.

Mo - also a good preparation here.

As I've finally managed to obtain a used copy (at a reasonable price, not from the seller who's currently asking £104 for one!!! :eek: ) of the Townsend book http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1854375784/ref=ord_1cl_log_ydet/026-2721161-4323622 (which I gather was essentially the results of her PhD thesis) I've decided to hold off for a day or two until it arrives (despatched yesterday, so hopefully I should have it within the next few days)

Dave

JKM
02-06-2005, 05:49 AM
Dave - £104 OUCH! :eek: I had a look at your link to the one on amazon. It seems quite a good price. You can let us know if it's any good.

Mo - I like your drawing. You have done a great job. I am not looking forward to painting the detail in the ship at all. Not really sure how to set about it.

dcorc
02-06-2005, 06:43 AM
I've got some suggestions, James - which are the approaches I am currently intending to use myself - but I was wondering if the information in Joyce Townsend's book (which I managed to find a copy of for £12 :) ) might change my approach at all.

I was intending doing a block-in similar to your own, but perhaps in more pallid colours initially - followed by a sketch-in in light-coloured paint of the details, and blocking-in of darker areas in fairly fluid paint - I think the next stage would be putting in some impasto white for the ship and some other areas in the scene...

- here's what I'm particularly waiting for the book for - as the impasto areas (even given some of the flattening artefacts seen in the canvases at the Tate from ironing during earlier re-lining conservation work) have a crisp appearance which suggest additives to the lead-white - I've got some tests going at the moment adding different amounts of egg yolk, whole egg, beeswax and egg yolk + beeswax to the paint as ways of increasing its stiffness as I've read Turner may possibly have used these additives. I'm interested to know how well they dry, and how readily resolubilised they are by trying to work over them after a few days -also wondering if I should get some carnauba wax, which is harder, with a higher melting point - but my approaches might be changed by the Townsend book..

After impasto white, glazing/scumbling over the top, possibly using a megilp-like medium such as Marogers or Robersons - and possible repeats of this process, to bring the painting to completion.

These sorts of approaches, of course, are fairly horrendous from a sound-practice point of view, as they totally ignore things like fat over lean!

Now all the different sorts of additive glop I've described above has probably succeeded in putting everyone off totally :D (Some of these materials issues might also be relevant to Rembrandt, by the way)

Paradoxically - it might be possible to straightforwardly get most of the way to "the look" with the white in student-grade paint - as it handles much more "toothpasty" anyway, due to the higher proportion of aluminium stearate filler added! :eek: (Wintons and Georgians are going to be my weapons of choice when we get to Van Gogh later in the year!!)

Dave

MaryannD
02-06-2005, 07:06 AM
Thanks Dave. I really enjoyed your write up. I havent been to this thread before and I can see I have been missing out!

JKM
02-06-2005, 07:11 AM
Thankyou Dave. I had to read your post twice before I understood some of the methods you were talking about. Almost all new to me :D However I understood the basics and it sounds like a good approach to me. I will definitley try some of the things you have suggested. I am looking forward to seeing your start.

Personaly I think you are just stalling :D :D :D :D Just kidding.

I agree with yourself that I should maybe have blocked in colours slightly more pallid. At the moment I am trying to tone it down a little bit. I don't really know all the arty words so I hope you understand what I mean.

dcorc
02-06-2005, 08:37 AM
Personaly I think you are just stalling :D :D :D :D Just kidding.

Guilty as charged, Your Honour. :D - I am for the moment - as I want to see what's in that book, now that the Post Office has it winging its way to me (or perhaps to somewhere else completely - you know what our postal service is like now :rolleyes: )

Dave

irish artist
02-06-2005, 09:15 AM
Paradoxically - it might be possible to straightforwardly get most of the way to "the look" with the white in student-grade paint - as it handles much more "toothpasty" anyway, due to the higher proportion of aluminium stearate filler added! :eek: (Wintons and Georgians are going to be my weapons of choice when we get to Van Gogh later in the year!!)

Dave

Dave, I'm surprised to read this about the student-grade paint because its the same idea I had and have begun blocking in with it. Works very well. I used the knife technique that R2 suggested and knifed in the white mixed with the colors and brushed it out smooth becaues I didn't want the knife marks, just the texture.

irish artist
02-06-2005, 03:14 PM
Roughing in Turner:

rwhiteley
02-06-2005, 08:03 PM
more work on Turner

dollardays
02-06-2005, 08:58 PM
I think I am going to give this a try even though almost every landscape painting I have ever attempted has been a flop.
I want to do the keelmen (anyone else trying that one?) and i'm going to keep it small at 11" x 14" and crop the right hand side. That way I won't feel too bad if the canvas is not re-usable when I'm finished.
I am wondering if the palette should be mostly transparent oils, as opposed to opaque, considering Turner's background in watercolor?
Would this mean forget yellow ochre and go with raw sienna? for the initial washes?
Hopefully I'll begin this week and have something to share. Progress images are looking great!

Nora

sbeckett
02-06-2005, 11:19 PM
Personaly I think you are just stalling :D :D :D :D Just kidding.



Wouldn't be the only one. I'll do the Temeraire if I do one but I am kinda flummoxed about how to go about it. The cracking in the L upper- is it an opaque layer he started with or maybe the oil primer? A grisaille? If so what form was he describing in the sky/sea that wouldn't have been covered by later glazes -the boat reflections seem all to be transparent. I also wonder how these reds and yellows were meant to look 150 years ago. That yellow-gray that runs through the sky- it'd be a shame to spend hours matching what is just pigment gone bad. Not 104 Pound questions, I agree, but still troubling.
Leaning toward not -Steve :confused:

JKM
02-07-2005, 03:11 AM
irish artist - Looks like your off to a better start than me. Looking Good.

rwhiteley - That's coming along well. How long have you spent on it now?

dollardays - I'm not doing that one myself but it would be good to see someone giving that one a go.

sbeckett - Some interesting thoughts there. I don't know the answers to any of your questions but it is certainly something to think about.

And heres mine after the second session. I'll be leaving it for a few days now.
(I'm actualy going to take my time on this one :eek: )
Mo- I forgot to tell you the size. I'm keeping it small so it's on canvas 18"X12".

JKM
02-07-2005, 07:08 AM
I have a feeling that last pic is going to be too dark on other peoples monitors.

rwhiteley
02-07-2005, 08:54 AM
[
rwhiteley - That's coming along well. How long have you spent on it now?

James, I havnt kept track , but about 4 hours I think, I keep coming back and adding something for about 10 minutes at a time. Yours is looking good, good strong colors and definition in the sky. My sky seems to be divided into two halves and needs some sort of transition. I think I will try glazing some blue on the right and some yellow red on the left.
R2

Mo.
02-07-2005, 10:28 AM
Hi Folks, you are all steaming along so quickly with this one ('scuse pun).
I fully intended to really get well stuck in yesterday, but only managed an initial wash of colour due to unexpected visitors, which rather put the lid on my painting activities.

Steve you have a good point about the colours shown in this pic, I haven't seen the original, my daughter has however and she says that colours are a lot brighter than shown here, maybe Dave can confirm that, I think it's on his doorstep.
My theory is that he has used watercolour techniques in the sky, i.e. applying very thin washes of colour and blending them in, which is what I did here, I used a rag to apply the colour and just scrubbed it around, I'll layer up again on this until happy with the colours and then probably dry scumble over the top. After studying the pic, it seems to me that in some areas of the sky the paint has been applied much thicker and then glazed over, as with the ship, that's my gut feeling anyway.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Feb-2005/5154-Turner_WIP_01.jpg

Mo.

irish artist
02-07-2005, 10:53 AM
Mo, what we have been talking about in previous posts is that there is some confusion about Turner's methods. It has also been brought up that he was a good watercolor painter, so of course he may have put on thin veils of color. Which is what you have done?

Dave has said that he has sent for a book of Turner's painting technique and is waiting for the tome to arrive. He will probably tell us , briefly, what the book information is about.

The main idea of Turner's technique has been stated in this thread that he began his block-in with fairly thin washes, applied a thick medium on top of that, or used a bees-wax concotion, and finished with thin washes of color. This has given rise to questions about cracking of the paint, because that is what happens if you apply thin oil paint on top of thick, because of the different drying times.

dcorc
02-07-2005, 11:57 AM
My copy of the Townsend book has arrived - I will read it quickly (it's only 84 pages) and report back in a couple of hours or so, and pick up on various comments from others then :)

Off to read it.....

Dave

rwhiteley
02-07-2005, 03:37 PM
2 more hours on this.
I am trying to get more luminosity like Turner, but not getting it really. I have paintet highlights white and then glazed over a few times, but it still doesnt aproach the turner effect. I am going to leave it for now and try the other.
R2

dcorc
02-07-2005, 04:00 PM
Ok - I've read the book - conclusions are as follows:

Turner used canvas with a moderately absorbant white priming ground - those made by his father were primed with lead white in whole egg - effectively a tempera ground. After his father's death in 1829, he mostly worked on canvases commercially prepared by either Browns or Robersons artists colourmen - the ones from Browns were double-primed (separated by a layer of thin glue size) with lead white and chalk in oil.

The book analyses the approach for the unfinished painting "Shipping at the Mouth of the Thames" c 1806-7. http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?cgroupid=999999996&workid=14877 General painting technique was to begin, without drawing, in lean oilpaint thinned in turpentine, in a limited range of colours - the next stage was to strengthen the image with fairly bright opaque oil paint thinned wih oil, and mixed with some white - areas such as large choppy waves were painted in with long brushstrokes, some with light impasto, with paler colours. The sky has a very lean slate-coloured scumble of black pigment in white.

In later landscapes the initial skies were bright and somewhat opaque, and modified later by scumbling down. Numerous overlapping scumbles of light paint were used. Chrome yellow, cobalt and ultramarine blues, occasionally vermilion, emerald (arsenic) green, and madders (later fugitive) were among colours commonly used, along with earths and lead white. Cadmium colours were not available to him.

It is thought that by the 1830s, he was using pure lead white paint for impasto, and also using lead white to which some beeswax had been added. He applied impastoed paint using either brush or palette knife over previous glazes, and thinly glazed and scumbled again on top of this often using megilp medium (mastic + linseed + lead drier) - paint was reworked wet-in-wet, and it seems that many of the paintings have areas with multiple cycles of white impasto followed by glazes. Bitumen was also used in shadowed areas (giving rise to prompt cracking!).

So it seems that earlier suggestions in this thread appear pretty accurate - the only thing not mentioned in the Townsend book is whether small additions of eggyolk might be used in the lead white - I've read speculations in various places that this might be so, for the white impastos of Turner and/or Rembrandt.

Dave

JKM
02-07-2005, 04:28 PM
Very interesting and helpful Dave. I appreciate you taking the time to share it with us. It sounds like a good book then. Did you read the whole thing or?

dcorc
02-07-2005, 04:32 PM
Cover to cover - I read fast :)

Dave

guillot
02-07-2005, 08:23 PM
Lots of good info here and some great starts going on :clap:

And yes, I AM stalling, LOL :p But will get to it soon enough :)

Tina

RhiannonJ
02-08-2005, 02:50 PM
You guys are just having too much fun here with this one! Great starts everyone! Hmm... think I may have to jump in on this one after I *finally* finish dear ole Ophelia. May not be until March though but I don't think Dave will object. :D

Rhi

soren1915
02-08-2005, 04:06 PM
Hello from sunny Bournemouth!

Well done so far guys & gals, I think they are all coming along nicely....

Keep it up!

Soren

fiannah
02-08-2005, 04:51 PM
well this is the first time i have ever had the guts to venture into this folder.. and it sure does look scarey! I am not sure im ready to try this one but i did print out one of the pictures to think about till i have some free time this weekend to paint. So far you all are doing great!

irish artist
02-08-2005, 05:55 PM
Dave, is 'scumbling' the same as dry-brush? :confused:

What does "modified later by scumbling down" mean?

Mo.
02-08-2005, 06:42 PM
Dave you are a gem, thanks for all that precious info, it looks as if I'm going in the right direction, haven't had chance to do anymore today,
hopefully tomorrow. I don't have all the extra additives that Turner used, so will just wing my way through it.

R2, you are doing great, are you using wet glazes? I'm thinking of doing dry ones, ie. rubbing in the paint straight from the tube, then wiping off, I'll test it out first though on some scrap paper, something I've never done before.

Tina quit stalling now, get cracking girl!

Rhi Hi! I query "fun" :wink2: I have a few more white hairs that need glazing.:D

Fiannah, go on have a go, it's fun, Rhi says so!

Irish, I don't know what answer Dave will give you, but when I scumble, it's with a dry brush, I believe the modified later with scumbling was to tone down those brighter areas in the sky.

cheers,
Mo.

dcorc
02-08-2005, 10:03 PM
My understanding of the term scumbling is that it is the application of full-bodied opaque paint (usually containing some white) so thinly that the underlying layer of paint shows through but it modified by the scumbled layer, like a translucent veil.

I've made a start, as a washed-in "colour beginning" - and after giving it 24 hours to "set-up" I'm putting in a second layer with pastel colours with added lead white - and just a touch of Robersons medium - which in its current incarnation with double mastic, linseed oil and "synthetic copal medium" (=alkyd ;) ) is rather like liquin anyway, though a bit more thixotropic due to the presence of the mastic - once I've got that layer completed, I'll post the two photos - didn't want to show how unprepossessing the start is, without the next stage! :evil:

Dave

Biki
02-09-2005, 02:59 AM
Great start everyone.

Someone mentioned luminosity.
I remember John Hagan said that you get luminosity by adding a small amount of colour to your white.
Try it. It works.

It does look like a fun painting to try. .... maybe next year.

Truly, if i did a MOM every month, i would have no time for anyting else. such a snail that i am.

Have fun guys. I will sit back & watch with interest. :wave:

rwhiteley
02-09-2005, 11:40 AM
Mo I am using acrylic so its a little different. I used mostly wet glazes, medium plus paint, quite dilute. By adding white I have glazed opaque in some of the sky, perhaps that qualifies as scumble also. I have also applied thin layers of paint with a finger. I rub it in and it forms a thin veil, [also on my finger :evil: ]. This is so far out from what I usually do that I am sort of making it up as I go. I am stalled for now, so I will let it sit and see what hits me.
R2

dcorc
02-09-2005, 04:22 PM
Hi Richard - if you're doing this in acrylic (shock horror! :p :D ), you're not going to get the sort of luminosity and richness of effect which characterises Turner - as a lot of that depends on the oil being less than totally opaque - though it must be said your photos do look very good.

Dave

rwhiteley
02-09-2005, 07:30 PM
Dave, yes I know, acrylics! ugh!. Ive been using them since 1966 when I first picked up a brush. I can get close to oils, but I admit not the same. I use oil for plein air [water misc and alkyd], mainly because acrylic dries too quickly outside. But I dont like the fumes inside. However you gave me a hint a while ago to use liquin rather than solvent. I now have the liquin, and I will be breaking out the alkyds.
Richard2

irish artist
02-10-2005, 08:11 AM
After the blocking and the first coat of paint, I think I'll let this dry before finishing the sky. The sky needs more shape to the clouds, more of a sunset look to the colors. I think the ship is almost done, just need to add some details and paint the masts in after the sky is done. This thing is huge- size 35 1/2 x 24 , but I can't imagine Turner's scope captured in a smaller canvas-just wouldn't do it justice.

dollardays
02-10-2005, 10:14 PM
I found myself losing interest after the first wash. Uh Oh...
So I admit to hurrying through this thing and not even trying to figure out how those masts fit the sails, etc. etc.
The choppy seas were fun and that's about all I can say.
I started with a wash of yellow ochre for the sky and transparent brown ochre for the sea.
Let it dry. Then used sap green-on the seas and cobalt blue on the sky, then let it dry. Lost patience and finished in a couple hours. Added alizarin crimson, ultramarine blue, burnt sienna and lemon yellow for the final brightening of the water. Stayed pretty limited palette-wise.
Comments appreciated. This is a mini-Turner- only 11 x 14. The bell or whatever it was turned into a guy yelling, "Help! Save me from this painter!"

____________________
Nora

bjs0704
02-11-2005, 11:58 AM
Here is my start on the Turner. I’m using the directions from Hagen’s website. Doesn’t his website have some of the neatest lessons?

I keep wondering as I work, “Is this oil or is watercolor?”!

Barb Solomon:cat:

P.S. I’m am going to take a closer look and comment on everyone work a little bit later. Everything is so well done that I wouldn’t want to miss anything accidentally! :cool: :cool: :cool:

bjs0704
02-11-2005, 02:41 PM
Dave - It is an interesting comparision between Claude’s work and Turner’s work!

How have you liked the Townsend book on Turner? Is it worth my tracking it down?

Your advice to use student grade oils is interesting. When you are doing the Van Gogh later in the year, just think of the line in the movie “Vincent and Theo” where Van Gogh and Gauguin are discussing the virtues of cheap paint! I haven’t seen anything scholarly written about this, but maybe they weren’t kidding!

James - Your colors are incredible! I love the oranges and blues! Your clouds are wonderful!

Mo - I love the sketches. The details on the ships are very interesting.

Irish Artist - Great job! Very impressive! Your sunset looks beautiful!

rwhiteley - Beautiful work! The color and the details on the ships are fantastic!

Biki - It’s good to see you! Actually, this painting looks like it will go reasonably quickly. It is totally different from doing Velazquez last month!

Nora - You have done very well! The ships look pretty good. I love your neutral colors, the grey and the gold play off of each other in a really lovely way.

Barb Solomon :cat:

JKM
02-12-2005, 04:18 AM
Hey there folks I'm Back! I've been away for too long I think. There have been heaps of great starts since I left so well done to everybody. They are all looking good so far.

irish artist - Just wanted to say that I agree with your point that you just can't cram everything into a small piece of canvas. I'm giving it my best shot though.

Mo.
02-12-2005, 06:44 PM
Hi Folks, good to see some more progress,

Nora, your painting is great, I chickened out one that one, too many ships for me, but you have handled the subject very well, great colours and light.

R2, I hope you don't give up on yours after coming this far, I wouldn't have known it was acrylics either, the colours are wonderful, fancy doing my ships for me. :)

Irish, lovely work, beautiful soft glowing sunset you have there.

Barb, looks like a cracking start, I've been reading Hagans site too, lots of good info there.

Here's the next stage of mine, I almost binned it as after I transferred my initial sketch to the canvas and painted over to fix it, I realised I hadn't placed it right, it was down too low on the canvas, can't imagine how this happened as I thought I was very careful, so had to scrub back and re-do.
Still lots to do yet, the sky is starting to take shape though, some flash bounce in the centre there and colours are much nicer than shown here.

Cheers,
Mo

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Feb-2005/5154-Turner_WIP_02.jpg

dollardays
02-12-2005, 08:35 PM
Here's the next stage of mine, I almost binned it as after I transferred my initial sketch to the canvas and painted over to fix it, I realised I hadn't placed it right, it was down too low on the canvas, can't imagine how this happened as I thought I was very careful, so had to scrub back and re-do.
Still lots to do yet, the sky is starting to take shape though, some flash bounce in the centre there and colours are much nicer than shown here.

Cheers,
Mo



A wonderful beginning, Mo. I had no patience with those ships- they just became blobs. :clap:

sbeckett
02-12-2005, 10:42 PM
Had to shake out of my torpor on this one- too many good starts going on :clap: . Decided on the coals -the Temeraire has more pizzaz but that color has too many challenges. So does this -bright yellow moonlight? I plan to glaze that main color cool -maybe some purple against the orange fire. Darker, too. There are two very different ARC images of this -I guess pre/post cleaning. Was it so far gone somebody had to guess? He must be a conservators nightmare.
For a guy I associate with fuzzy there's some very fine detail here -the figures on the right and the rigging, eg. All before photos -very humbling.
Good excersize in aerial perspective and impasto -which I can see better how he used than Temeraire.

Bad photo -its mostly gray so far.
-Steve

bjs0704
02-12-2005, 11:27 PM
Thanks for the encouragement, Mo! Hagen’s directions say to draw out the composition after this “watercolor” stage is dry. That’s going to take another day.

The color is incredible in your painting. The sky is absolutely beautiful! It’s going to be neat to see what happens as you work!

Dollardays- Your ships weren’t that bad! You did pretty well!

Steve - You’ve got a nice start! The drawing is excellent!

Barb Solomon :cat:

dcorc
02-13-2005, 07:05 AM
My stages 1 and 2:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Feb-2005/30792-dcturner1.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Feb-2005/30792-dcturner2.jpg

Cadmium yellow and orange (instead of the chromes JMWT probably used), ultramarine blue, yellow ochre, and cremnitz lead white. First stage in turpsy paint, second stage in paint with a little Roberson's medium, and some thinning of the lead white with a small amount of turps in places.

I've probably used more cadmium orange in this painting already, than in all the other paintings I've ever done put together! :p

Dave

dcorc
02-13-2005, 08:16 AM
....well this is the first time i have ever had the guts to venture into this folder.. and it sure does look scarey!...

LOL - they're not that scarey really (actually, this is one of the scariest ones we've done :p - because it's so different) - the thing is just to have a go - it's surprising how people rise to the challenge; over the months we've seen some phenomenally good paintings come out of these MOMs, including quite a few by beginners, who've quite shocked themselves with what they could achieve!

I remember John Hagan said that you get luminosity by adding a small amount of colour to your white.
Try it. It works.

Yes, lots of slightly-coloured near-whites here - Turner's full of them - good tip!

Dianne/Irish - looking great - I'll look forward to seeing your finish of it, later on

Barb - it is a watercolour state of mind, it's true - yours looks like a very authentic start. The Townsend book is a little disappointing, to be honest - I was hoping it would be a bit more technical, really - we've covered just about all the juiciest bits here - if you're very interested, try to get a copy, but don't pay over the odds for it.

Nora - your mini-Turner turned out well !

James - good to see you with us - how's yours going - is it starting to surface-dry yet? I'm putting mine aside for several days at this point, probably at least a week, as I'm finding that I'm starting to lift paint a bit when applying more. I'd guess Turner did this as he had lots of blocked-in started canvases.

Mo - also a great start - looks like you've got those ships well transferred now

Steve - yes the two ARC images of Keelmen are very different - and it's a painting I haven't seen personally, so cannot comment, though I suspect your interpretation may be correct - certainly I'd favour the lighter version, from familiarity with his other paintings This looks like a good beginning too, and I think an almost monochrome beginning for this does seem right.

Dave

JKM
02-13-2005, 01:19 PM
Hey there Dave - I like your start, It's looking good.

My one is coming on better than I expected but I am still not very happy with it. It's surface dry at the moment and I will take a pic and post it later on(won't be too long).I have found the water the hardest to get right so far.

sbeckett
02-13-2005, 11:38 PM
Another session -the alkyd white from yesterday was dry enough. Mostly did rigging, etc. If mine was four times this size (its 20X15) I still couldn't touch his precision in that detail- I just keep seeing more stuff like wrinkles in the sails. His rigging is just so clean. Not so mine. Trying to build detail in the water with glazes that he makes look so easy is going to a challenge.
Sorry, badly lit again.
Steve

JKM
02-14-2005, 05:05 AM
Looking good Steve!

Heres where I am at - I am not very happy with alot of it at the moment but I am still working on it.

dcorc
02-17-2005, 08:15 PM
Just to confuse everyone.. :evil:


I called into the National Gallery this afternoon, and stood staring intently at the "Fighting Temeraire" for about 20 mins (I think the guards were starting to think I might be a psycho :D as I stood there, unlike most people who spend more time reading the info plaques than they do looking at the paintings :rolleyes: )

The reproductions - including the National Gallery's own posters etc, are a little too dark and oversaturated - as compared with the actual picture - I've adjusted the second image here in Photoshop to be more representative of what it really looks like (assuming you have your computer monitor/videocard set up reasonably well)

Standard image:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Jan-2005/30792-temeraire.jpg

Adjusted image
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Feb-2005/30792-turneradjusted2.jpg

I'm also including some details which caught my eye on the painting -

The left hand side, showing an area of land, and the open gunports on the side of the ship:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Feb-2005/30792-det1.jpg

The ship itself (it's not that impastoed, actually) :

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Feb-2005/30792-det2.jpg

The paddle-steamer, the boat to the right, with the the impasto bottom lefthand corner of the sail turned back, and the loosely indicated sailing ship, right of that:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Feb-2005/30792-det3.jpg

Another paddlesteamer in the background, and lots of faint vertical light and dark blue lines indicating other masts in the distance:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Feb-2005/30792-det4.jpg

The righthand edge - more masts, and note the glazed-in loose suggestion of the bell-tower:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Feb-2005/30792-det5.jpg

The brushwork in reflections of the paddlesteamer - glazed and scumbled horizontals, drybrushed dragged verticals, and some very loosely indicated reflections:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Feb-2005/30792-det6..jpg

:) Dave

rwhiteley
02-17-2005, 08:34 PM
Dave, thats really great research. Ive just come back after a week away , so I can look at it with freah eyes.
Thanks
R2

bjs0704
02-17-2005, 10:19 PM
Mo - Your painting is really going along well. Nice detail!

Dollardays - My boats came out as blobs too. I’m not sure if I should be using different brushes or what!

The colors in your painting are lovely!

Dave - You have really outdone yourself with your research. Your close ups are incredible. (Now, I can see what my blobs should have been.)
:clap: :clap: :clap:


The clouds in your painting are gorgeous! I like those blues and oranges!

If I read the Townsend book, it is probably going to be a library copy! As an ex-librarian, I am a big believer in libraries!

James - Good luck with the water! It will be nice to see how you are doing!

Here's my latest. Now, that I have the closeups that Dave has showed us, I'm going to have to redo a few things. I can't imagine how you get detail that small!

Barb Solomon :cat:

soren1915
02-18-2005, 02:25 AM
Another session -the alkyd white from yesterday was dry enough. Mostly did rigging, etc. If mine was four times this size (its 20X15) I still couldn't touch his precision in that detail- I just keep seeing more stuff like wrinkles in the sails. His rigging is just so clean. Not so mine. Trying to build detail in the water with glazes that he makes look so easy is going to a challenge.
Sorry, badly lit again.
Steve



Steve,

Are you using a mahl stick for the rigging?, that's how Turner would have kept the lines so crisp.... anyhow I think it's looking really good at present.....

JKM
02-18-2005, 06:11 AM
Thanks for that Dave, It's amazing how much detail is in the painting. It must have been good to see it close up and in person! I would like to visit some big gallerys in the UK. Edinburugh would be the closest to me. Thanks again! :)

Squib
02-18-2005, 08:03 AM
Hi All,

Just calling in to say you are all doing really well. I have been flat on my back with a dose of flu for the last week (did manage to drag myself to computer to take a peek now and again - but didn't have the strength to comment !). I have never had flu as bad as this before (time to start getting annual flu jabs I think) . But am feeling much better and hope to make a start on mine at the weekend. I will comment in more detail when I get the chance. Well done all. :clap: :clap:

dollardays
02-18-2005, 10:46 PM
Dollardays - My boats came out as blobs too. I’m not sure if I should be using different brushes or what!

The colors in your painting are lovely!

Barb Solomon :cat:

Thank you, Barb! I think yours is coming along very nicely, too! you obviously have much more patience with this than I did. Beckett, too- his painting is lovely. I can't get interested in ships, for some reason. :wink2:

Nora

Fish<><
02-19-2005, 12:15 AM
Hey guys! These are all coming along so nicely! I am :envy: with envy that I've not been able to even start. I've gotten too much paint on my palette right now to get anything else started. I guess that can be good, but seeing all this work make it hard. I've gotten about halfway through a commission that was given me a couple weeks ago so I don't think I'll be able to get in on this one. I will keep watching though. These are so much fun to watch develop!

Keith <")))><

guillot
02-19-2005, 12:25 AM
Tina quit stalling now, get cracking girl!


Mo

:D I'm still stalling, LOL

No seriously - just have had too much on my plate this month. Still hoping to give it a good wack though. If I can get everything that I have to get done this weekend out of my way (I have a long weekend) - then I will definitely give it a good wack with the brush. Will definitely take a steady hand and a good rigger for those masts. Gosh and look at the detail on the helm! Lucky you Dave getting to view them in person :envy:

Everyone's doing so beautifully !!

Are you guys all using the same palette? Or, what are you guys using?

Lorraine - I hope you are feeling better. We've had the same crud going around work :mad: I know it's a nasty bug - so I do hope that you are feeling better by now. WHY do people go to work with that stuff?

Tina

irish artist
02-19-2005, 06:43 AM
Tina, I don't think we're all using the same palette, or even the same medium. The big descission was about how to capture Turner's style and Dave bought a book and studied the actual painting and it seems to be a thick layer of paint over the thin block-in. After the thick layer dries than Turner used thin veils of paint to develop the luminous colors that he loved. The question arose about cracking if painted in this manner. Dave recommended using some mediums to counter this problem. Without all of Dave's help I fear we would all have gotten lost in trying to puzzle it out. His close-ups have settled alot of my own questions about details in the painting and I was able to find a library book that had a fairly good color copy of the painting.

This is not about painting ships as much as it is about a master's style and his way of the painting nature. I read in the book that he would take painting kits and walk for miles (daily!) and stop and paint the effects of nature, clouds, rain, waves. His daily walks would encompass 10-30 miles!!

guillot
02-19-2005, 08:35 AM
Hi Irish Artist :) Yes, I've read everything here. Dave is the king of research I think :D

I did find a little more insightful information from various websites:

“In The Fighting Temeraire Tugged to her Last Berth (1838), Turner emphasized the contrast between the ghostly old warship and the squat, dirty little steam tug that is towing it to its extinction. He counterpoises the harsh reds and oranges on the right - the side of the tug and the setting sun - with beautiful pale and ghostly harmonies on the left - the side of the old ship and a sickle moon. Similarly, in The Slave Ship (Slavers Throwing Overboard the Dead and Dying - Typhoon coming on) (1840), Turner's intensely dramatic technique matches the horror of the real incident when dying slaves were thrown overboard. Nowhere did he use his new sense of colour with more power than when he painted the ship's rigging blood red to suggest guilt and the sky with purple and violent orange to intimate Divine retribution. By the end of the decade this had become such a prominent feature of his colour organization that theorists began to identify it specifically with him.”

= FROM THE GAMBLIN WEBSITE: “J. M. W. Turner's subject is the color of light. His paintings are color arrangements of tints (pure color+white) and tones (pure color+white+black). He preferred painting with no deep colors or rich shades. To Turner's eye, purer colors were the paler colors. Onto a warm-grey toned under layer, Turner applied tints (pure color+white) and still brighter (tint+white) colors. Rather than choose black, he used soft light to deep neutral greys. Tints and brighter colors seem lustrous... radiant.
To experiment with Turner's palette, try using the Radiant Colors in the light areas. Mix the Radiants with Titanium-Zinc White to make them brighter. Add Portland Grey Light or Medium to tone the Radiants. Mix them with Portland Grey Deep for spare dark accents. Use Galkyd Light and Gamblin Transparent oil colors to control the quality of light. “ God Bless the Gamblins :D Darn shame I don't have any of their radiants.

“The Fighting Temeraire is an excellent example of the use of linear perspective beginning with the horizon line (where the water and the sky meet) and the vanishing point (the setting sun). The orthogonals create the illusion of things getting smaller as they recede into the distance. The blurring of the horizon makes the painting less real but there is a sense of movement of the ships, which is consistent with the painterly element. The painting is planar as everything runs parallel with the surface of the painting. Open form creates the sense of movement of the ships and makes it easy to imagine the scene continuing beyond our view. The single source of light from the setting sun suggests the element of unity, which creates shadows and shadings. The figures blend into each other, as do the other colors. Turner virtually used every color on his palette to create this painting.
The hermeneutical circle can be used to help the viewer have a truer understanding of this painting. One can look closely at the old warship moving upstream on the Thames between London and Margate with the two sturdy steam tugs to guide her. The reflection of the ships can be seen in the calm, still water. The sun is setting and you can see the skyline of the city moving farther away in the distance. When you look at the whole picture, there is a sense of sadness as the grand old ship is being led on her last voyage to the scrapyard. The calm, quiet end of a beautiful day is a tribute to the history of the Temeraire. “

Tina

Mo.
02-19-2005, 12:02 PM
Many thanks Dave for all the seriously good research, I had a feeling that the original would be lighter, so bore this in mind.

Tina, those are beautiful descriptions of Turner's work, especially like that last write up, it really epitomises the scene. There has been quite a bit of reporting by the Daily Mail this past week on Turner and the current exhibition at the Tate, ~~Turner, Monet and Whistler, ~~, for those of you who live in the UK there is a special programme on Channel 5 on Tuesday at 7.15.p.m. giving a preview of the exhibition.

For my palette for those who are interested so far I've used

Titanium white
Flake white,
Transparent gold ochre
Yellow ochre (just sparingly)
Chrome orange,
Chrome yellow
Naples yellow.
Alizarin,
French ultramarine blue.
Blue Black.

Here's where I am at the moment, still working on the sky which I think is coming along okay, I've also scrubbed some initial colour in for the water.
Still along way to go, I can only manage to paint about 2 hours per day, and then not every day either. I'm really enjoying painting this one but find I'm studying the ref pic more than painting it, I keep looking and looking at his techniques used and trying to apply them.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Feb-2005/5154-turner_WIP_03.jpg

Mo.

Biki
02-19-2005, 03:48 PM
Dave - that is marvellous.!

It is such a treat to see it up close like that.

Now tell me, how did you do it.? How were you able to show us all this marvellous detail.?
Did you have a poster & scan it in sections.?

guillot
02-19-2005, 04:59 PM
Many thanks Dave for all the seriously good research, I had a feeling that the original would be lighter, so bore this in mind.

Tina, those are beautiful descriptions of Turner's work, especially like that last write up, it really epitomises the scene. There has been quite a bit of reporting by the Daily Mail this past week on Turner and the current exhibition at the Tate, ~~Turner, Monet and Whistler, ~~, for those of you who live in the UK there is a special programme on Channel 5 on Tuesday at 7.15.p.m. giving a preview of the exhibition.

For my palette for those who are interested so far I've used

Titanium white
Flake white,
Transparent gold ochre
Yellow ochre (just sparingly)
Chrome orange,
Chrome yellow
Naples yellow.
Alizarin,
French ultramarine blue.
Blue Black.

Here's where I am at the moment, still working on the sky which I think is coming along okay, I've also scrubbed some initial colour in for the water.
Still along way to go, I can only manage to paint about 2 hours per day, and then not every day either. I'm really enjoying painting this one but find I'm studying the ref pic more than painting it, I keep looking and looking at his techniques used and trying to apply them.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Feb-2005/5154-turner_WIP_03.jpg

Mo.

Thanks Mo for sharing your palette. Your painting is looking absolutely beautiful !!! I did find something in my search about the exhibition on Turner, Whistler and Monet at the Tate as well.

Tina

dcorc
02-19-2005, 05:19 PM
Hi all, again! :wave:

Mo - I'll also applaud you - looking terrific.

Tina - more great info there - I've got the catalogue book for the Turner Whistler Monet exhibition, but haven't been to it yet, hoping to go this next week sometime - I'll write it up when I do. :)

Biki - The details were just crops off my slightly colour-adjusted version of the very hires image from the ARC - picking out things I'd noticed when I was looking at the actual painting that day - (actually, even those crops are reduced from the the full rez of that photo - and there's an equally detailed image there for "Keelmen" too)

Dave

bjs0704
02-19-2005, 06:53 PM
Soren - Thanks, for the reminder to use a mahlstick! I’m going to have to find my riggers and spotters for some of this detail!

Dave - I remember seeing Turner’s paintings, several years ago! They are spectacular!

It will be really interesting to hear about the Turner, Whistler, Monet show!

Lorraine - I’m so sorry to hear that you have had the flu! I hope that you are starting to feel better. :angel:

Nora - I can understand how you feel. The colors in Turner’s sunset and the reflections on the ocean are really spectacular.

Keith - It’s good to hear from you! It’s good to hear that you are busy with a commission! I hope that you get a chance to stop in and give the Turner a try! It’s been a fun painting to work on!

Tina - Good luck with catching up on everything! I hope that you can give this one a try! I think that I borrowed my colors from the Hagen website.

Irish Artist - Your right! Turner seemed more interested in getting the colors that he saw in nature and catching the effect of light and weather in his paintings.

Mo - Your painting is looking so beautiful! You are really doing so well!
:clap: :clap: :clap:

Thanks, for telling us about the Turner show at the Tate and the television program! Now, I know to be on the lookout for lots of good things about Turner.

Biki - It’s good to see you!

Barb Solomon :cat:

rwhiteley
02-20-2005, 01:39 PM
Hi all back to working on this one. I tried to lighten everything up as shown in Daves revised images. I seem to have ended up with shadows too dark on the right and the ship looking too ghostly. I will be trying to fix that later.
This thread is great, love everyones work and especially insightful comments. :clap: :clap:
R2

sbeckett
02-20-2005, 10:15 PM
Some fine Temeraires coming along. And no I still wouldn't want to take it on.
Yea, Soren I've using a jury-rig mahlstick -gets tricky tho at the right edge. And keeping track of where it can touch.
Still fussing with ship detail. The color and value glazing are ahead. Still want the sky to be cooler and darker than the reference (night after all), but could yet make a mess of it. It's kind of wearing out its welcome, actually. Have learned T was more a craftsman than I had thought. But thats in a sorta "his stuff was better than it looks" sense ;) .
-Steve

bjs0704
02-20-2005, 11:41 PM
R2 - You do seem to be right about the light/ dark balance. Your color is wonderful! The clouds in the sunset look great! And you have really done well with those neat brown flecks that Turner had! Good luck with it!

Steve - There are some sections where I might have thought the paint was slapped on and it has turned out to be amazingly precise! In some ways, it seems to be a matter of being slapdash and then it really isn’t! The detail is the part that holds everything together. The detail in your drawing is fantastic! It is going to look wonderful as you add the color! Good going!

Barb Solomon :cat:

rwhiteley
02-25-2005, 10:19 AM
Ive adjusted Temeraire a bit , but still not happy, will keep trying. Made a start on "Loading Coals". Ive got two ref images, one is more yellow brown, the other more blue and much lighter. I think the latter is the more true, do you all agree?.
Unfortunately I started with yellow and burnt siennna, and really went to town with a big brush. I am going to put layers of blues and white to see if I can tone it down. Also looking closely at the image I now see that Turner put real detail into the ships and rigging, as well as multiple little figures working. This is going to be a challenge.
Richard 2

dcorc
02-27-2005, 02:05 PM
Hi Richard, Barb, Steve - and anyone else still about - where'd James get to? :)

Richard - that looks great - well done! :clap: - and having a go at "Keelmen" too !

Steve - coming along well - there's a lot of detail, and a lot of suggested detail in Turner.

here's the latest stage of mine - still a long way to go - built in layers of scumbles/velaturas with tinted cremnitz white for the most part - using naples yellow, french ultramarine, cadmium yellow, cadmium orange, permanent alizarin crimson, burnt sienna, burnt umber, and ivory black.

After blocking-in a further layer, I oiled out with a very thinned stand-oil in turpentine, and have been building on top of that with scumbles in Roberson's medium (similar to Maroger's) which tacks-up quickly - I've reached the stage in the sky where I'm going to add a little beeswax to the paint for more impasto areas, but I still need to work more on the rest of the scene first - intending to do some areas of glazing, with prussian blue, cobalt blue, and burnt sienna in stand oil next - I'm going to be doing this until well into next month I think!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Feb-2005/30792-dcturner3.jpg

Dave

irish artist
03-03-2005, 09:46 AM
Love it, Dave. Thanks for providing information about the finishing because........Me too--way into March before it's done.

How long does it take for the Stand Oil and Turps Scumbling to dry?

bjs0704
03-04-2005, 11:13 PM
This is my final version of Turner’s Fighting Temeraire. I don’t think that I ever got the hang of doing those clouds!

Barb Solomon :cat:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Mar-2005/11410-finalturner.jpg

bjs0704
03-05-2005, 01:34 PM
Richard 2 - As I looked at your version of "Loading Coals", I started to wonder, did Turner use his colors by painting light to dark the way the watercolorist do? I had a similar problem with getting the “blended look” that Turner get!

Dave - The Roberson’s must be part of the trick!

Your sky and the ocean reflections are fantastic! Your really doing well with it!

Barb Solomon :cat:

rwhiteley
03-05-2005, 02:57 PM
Barb, I am quite discouraged by my start on loading coals. To your comment I did start out trying to match color and value directly, with the result that you see. I think I should have worked up to it gradually withh successive glazes and scumbles. I have tried to glaze over with blues etc and now it looks worse. In this case acrylics make it worse.
Last Sunday I painted outside with my plein air group and I used my alkyds, together with liquin as suggested by Dave some time ago. Apart from the freezing weather it was nice not to have to rush to finish before paint dried on work, pallet and brushes.! :evil:
So now I will eventually get back to "coals" and overpaint with the alkyds. I know you are not supposed to paint oil over acrylic for archival reasons, but alkyds are modified oils and crosslink faster, but for a shorter time. Regular oils crosslink for ever and get more and more brittle, so in theory you eventually get a rigid layer over a flexible [acrylic ]layer and a tendency to crack. Of course the same applies to oil[rigid] on canvas[flexible]. So who cares :D
Happy Painting
Richard 2

bjs0704
03-05-2005, 09:57 PM
I don’t know if Turner used very much blue at all in “Keelmen”. He seems to have used mostly gold and the boats seem to me to be either umbers or black. The Hagen site said to add in the boats and landscape with browns (and could be black).

Your sky seems to have gotten much darker. He seemed to be working with Naples Yellow, White and just a bit of black to gray the other colors. Compare your painting to his and think about how light or dark the colors are.

One of the things that I have really found impressive, in copying Turner , was how he suggested things because he knew to place slight shadows and highlights. With a well placed shadow and a highlight, here and there, a smudge can be a boat.

How did the Liquin act in the cold? I have been afraid to use anything acrylic based in cold weather.

Your color and rendering of the scene in “Keelmen” is wonderful! I suspect overpainting a few glazes to readjust the lights and darks will really make it look great! Your setting sun is just glowing!

I can't wait to see how your painting turns out!

Barb Solomon :cat:

rwhiteley
03-06-2005, 12:15 PM
Barb, thanks for the color suggestions , I will be trying them. Mine did get too dark, and I think I will have to more or less white everything down and start over for the sky and sea. Re the liquin, it worked well outside in the cold, together with alkyd oils, not acrylic. I had workability over about four hours, but it was touch dry in about 6 hrs. Perfect for plein air.
Richard 2

rwhiteley
03-09-2005, 12:17 PM
Well Ive finished "coals" enough so I can get to the March mom, which I am really looking forward to . I am also going to do the Pearl Earing, as Ive always loved it.
Coals could use some more work but I am going to leave it for now.
See you all in the March mom.
R2

dollardays
03-09-2005, 04:55 PM
Nice work, Richard. Looks like an authentic night scene and a beautiful sunset. :clap: :clap: :clap:
Nora

sbeckett
03-10-2005, 11:27 PM
I'll stop here. I suppose Turner would have been getting more precision in his later layers. In trying to get the cool night colors I wanted I'm just losing detail and getting mud. It's a humbling exersize in a technique thats always looked kind of easy. A lot of his detail -I'm thinking the water and horizon- seem to be transparent light-over-dark strokes. I could keep chasing that detail but Turner has made his point. I'm no more fond of his stuff but certainly gained respect.
-Steve

Mo.
03-11-2005, 06:46 AM
Hi folks, I've not been around for a while because of sickness, but I've managed to complete my Turner too.

Everyone has done so well with this challenge, and what a challenge it was.
Here's my final, I think I could have layed in more glazes, but I'm calling it a day now, it's showing up a lot darker here in places than in RL, this due to the uploader I think, which seems to destroy detail and colours in my opinion.
I enjoyed doing this one very much. Thank you Dave.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Mar-2005/5154-fighting_tem__med.jpg

Mo.

rwhiteley
03-11-2005, 09:50 AM
Mo and Steve, great work :clap: :clap:

Glad to see some still workong on Feb mom, I thought I was the last !! :D
Richard 2

Biki
03-12-2005, 04:04 AM
this was such an impressive effort by everyone.
Mo & Steve, do stand out in my memory.
steve, you are so professional. I wish i knew more about you.
i think you like to be mysterious, - yes.? :p

dcorc
03-12-2005, 12:36 PM
Great work, folks! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Particularly impressive, Mo, and Steve, but good efforts all round!

To answer Diann's question about how long it takes to dry with stand oil involved - quite a long time! I'm scumbling tints of white with Robersons, and glazing the transparents with stand oil - haven't got much more to show at this stage, it doesn't look much different from my last photo. As the paint's getting pretty thick now, and the surface has a slightly vinyl-like feel :eek: - I'm going to give it 2 or 3 weeks to toughen up a bit before getting into the impasto'd bits! (So it's not all over quite yet, Biki, and Richard! :) )

Dave

sbeckett
03-12-2005, 02:28 PM
Top Notch, Mo :clap:
I think we were both trying to overcome the odd color that time or overcleaning or computers had done to these images (my assumption). Mine fell apart in the glazing but yours probably took it closer to the original color. I'll leave this heavy glazing to watercolorists and thems that can do it.

Also, why do some images show as thumbnails and some imbed? I've seen my posts behave both ways on different computers.
-the mysterious Steve

irish artist
03-13-2005, 05:01 PM
Love yours, Mo. I've had several bouts of sickness also and am way behind my Turner. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.....

Dave, Thanks about the stand oil tips. I bought a jar of the stuff and was all set to try it, but I think I'll save it for another project and continue the Turner as I started.

Well, time to get at it and finish that Turner!!! Will try to post by next weekend.

Mo.
03-18-2005, 07:30 PM
Thanks everyone for your compliments on my Turner, Hubby has offered me £100 for it, but told him where to go. :evil: :D

Dave ~ Looking forward to seeing yours finished.

Irish ~ Hope you are feeling better, looking forward to seeing yours too.

Steve ~ Your painting is superb, you managed all those masts and sails so successfully, it must have been a nightmare, well it would have been for me. :) I agree about the colour too, it wasn't easy to get it right, I could have gone on and done more glazes, but have a show coming up Easter weekend so something had to give.

Mo.

irish artist
03-24-2005, 08:55 AM
Still have to paint in the details--small mast lines and water reflection details but almost ready to call it done and move on to April's challenge.

Biki
03-25-2005, 01:40 AM
oooo, Irish,
i looove your version.

that's special. ;)

:clap:

dcorc
07-14-2005, 08:01 AM
Belatedly picking up again on the "Turner"

Looking back on these, what an impressive set of copies there are here!

Irish/Dianne - a lovely job!


Here's the next couple of stages on mine - there's a long way to go on this one yet.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Jul-2005/30792-dcturner4.jpg

It's mainly built up in layers of scumbles so far, with large amounts of lead white, and using Robersons medium (which is broadly similar to Marogers). The impasto clouds on the right are applied over this with the tip of a palette knife, using paint with the addition of about 10% beeswax. A couple of layers of transparent glazes have also crept in, in places, using a little stand oil and turps as a medium - As this painting breaks all sorts of rules for fat over lean and so on, I'm proceeding very slowly with it, letting each stage get in quite a bit of "drying" time before the next.

And after quite a bit more waxy paint palette-knifed on, and some scumbles mainly in the blues.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Jul-2005/30792-dcturner5.jpg

There's a sort of "push-pull" process going on here, with colours being stated boldly, and then scumbled back on to of, with more pallid tints of lead white, to knock them back again a bit. Unfortunately, the digital camera doesn't do justice to the colour variation.

Dave

irish artist
07-14-2005, 06:48 PM
Right Dave, a hard work to photograph. My own painting isn't as the posted photo, but the best I could do about it. I'm glad you're on to finish your Turner. I'm trying to finish my Rembrandt and the Waterhouse before taking on my next, which will be Degas.

Will be following your progress, keep giving the infro...........*all ears*

rwhiteley
07-17-2005, 08:43 AM
surprised to see this is stiil going, I havent been back to mom since this one, but will soon. I went to the National in Washington last week and finally got a look at " Coals". I was amazed, it really is mostly blues/greys, not the kind of muddy orange that I achieved. Unfortunately I did not take a camera, but will go back and do that. Or I can try cooling the image color in photoshop, to see if that will provide a better image to copy. I expect the same may be true of "Temaraire"
Richard

irish artist
07-17-2005, 07:48 PM
Richard, I've discovered the same thing about alot of the Materpieces that we have been copying-the need for the 'true' color. I think some of the computers screens aren't even showing the same color. Other web sites have thrown me off also, they have a different color hue than the ones posted in Wetcanvas!