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antonio
11-30-2001, 10:28 PM
I'm new. I've just started grinding my own oil paint.

I made one complete series of colors (about 9...mostly iron oxides,lead white,cobalt blue,chromium oxide green) using cold pressed linseed oil and pigment. Nothing else added.

Then i made a second set using walnut oil.

My question is : Has anyone tried grinding pigment with stand oil ?.....obviously it would first have to be thinned......should i use turpentine or mineral spirits ?

Is paint make with stand oil superior to linseed or walnut oil ?

and because of the thinner would i have to keep the paint in a glass jar vs a tube ?

Thanks

sarkana
12-02-2001, 11:14 AM
yes, many artists prefer heat-bodied oils (stand or sun-thickened linseed) to the less viscous kind i generally use. i'm surprised we haven't heard from einion or titanium on this one. you can keep oil paint in a jar, can or tube as long as there isn't a lot of extra air in there as well. if a can of mine isn't full, i usually cover the surface of the paint with a little plastic wrap. otherwise it skins.

i am interested to hear how you like the walnut oil versus the linseed oil. i am thinking of transitioning from alkali-refined linseed oil to walnut oil. i find the colors are clearer and i prefer the handling qualities of walnut oil. but what do you think?

antonio
12-02-2001, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by sarkana

you can keep oil paint in a jar, can or tube as long as there isn't a lot of extra air in there as well.

i am interested to hear how you like the walnut oil versus the linseed oil. i am thinking of transitioning from alkali-refined linseed oil to walnut oil. i find the colors are clearer and i prefer the handling qualities of walnut oil. but what do you think? [/B]

Are you saying it's OK for me to tube paint made with a stand oil/ mineral spirit or turpentine vehicle ?.......i'm concerned that maybe the solvent would harm the tube ?

As for cold pressed linseed vs walnut oil i'm sort of leaning toward the walnut because the colors appear "cleaner" . The lead white and cobalt blue especially.

However i grinded a lead white last night with stand oil and spirits and it's much less yellower than the straight cold pressed linseed oil version.

Truth be told it's very similar to the walnut oil version.

At this point I feel very comfortable using stand oil , walnut oil or cold pressed linseed oil. In that order. I prefer painting to chemistry or to talking about painting but i am conducting several minor tests with these oils and will report my findings from time to time.

The pigments I use are the simple ones.

Lead White
Black Iron Oxide
Purple Iron Oxide
Red Iron Oxide
Orange Iron Oxide
Yellow Iron Oxide
Chromium Oxide Green
Cobalt Blue
Burnt Siena

By manipulating the above pigments , in a variety of ways, i find i have more than enough of a color range for my purposes.

sarkana
12-03-2001, 09:29 AM
i don't see the solvent harming the tube, as long as the tube isn't made of plastic. if you are using aluminum tubes like i do, you should be fine.

i've never heard of anyone using solvent to make paint, tho. the usual recipe is pigment + oil + possible stabilizer. with unmodified stand oil you might not need any stabilizer because it is probably viscous enough to hold your heavy pigments. otherwise, prepare for separation in the tube. i predict the first one to separate will be lead white.

please note that separation is not a paint failure. the pigment is still ground into oil, its just falling out of suspension.

Titanium
12-03-2001, 12:46 PM
Hello Antonio , Sarkana ,

you haven't heard from me because those
questions would have required a very long
response.

AND then someone would have wanted to
discuss/argue points . I don't have that much
free time presently.

Briefly - Stand Oil is very strong , only 5 to 10 %
is needed to be added to 95 to 90 % Walnut
Oil .
Walnut oil is thinner and holds much more pigment.
So the above addition of Stand Oil , should still
allow you to hand mull dry pigment into it and get
normal results.

Linseed oil is not as thin and Stand oil in small %'s
may be thicker and thus may hold less dry pigment ,
when hand mulled.

Of course if your already using just Stand oil , as
the medium , you may not need to put it in your
hand mulled paint.

Both Stand Oil and Walnut oil are lower in yellowing
but are also slower drying than Linseed oil.

ON Dry Pigments -

Lead White - get a blood test twice a year.

Chromium Oxide is a suspected Carcinogenic.

Cobalt oxide is a toxin [ see Sinopia.com ]
and a drier .

Antonio , you may find Blue Ochre useful , I
think Sarkana supplies it.
Fits into the Iron Oxide palette nicely.

If you wish to hand mull dry pigments into a
Stand Oil try Kremer's Dehydrated Castor
Stand Oil , it's thin and the lowest yellowing oil
around , dries in 5 to 7 days [ at 75 to 90 deg.f]
so a liquid drier may be needed .
Kremer supplies a liquid drier.

By the way I use no driers , so use at your
understanding.
Titanium

antonio
12-03-2001, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by sarkana
i don't see the solvent harming the tube, as long as the tube isn't made of plastic. if you are using aluminum tubes like i do, you should be fine.

i've never heard of anyone using solvent to make paint, tho. the usual recipe is pigment + oil + possible stabilizer.



Thanks for the info Sarkana......i was worried that the mineral spirits would eat through the tubes or something. I use the ones from Kremer...aluminum i suppose ?
As for the stand oil i thought that if i thinned it before grinding the pigments it would make life easier. I thought that stand oil was too thick to use for grinding pigments?

Antonio

antonio
12-03-2001, 08:20 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Titanium


Chromium Oxide is a suspected Carcinogenic.

Cobalt oxide is a toxin [ see Sinopia.com ]
and a drier .

Antonio , you may find Blue Ochre useful , I
think Sarkana supplies it.
Fits into the Iron Oxide palette nicely.

What green pigment would you suggest i use if i discard the chromium oxide ?
Ditto for the cobalt blue ?

I'm intrigued by this blue ochre..i posted awhile back about it. It's a synthetically produced oxide correct? except i believe it's not an IRON oxide......
I saw it in dry form today when i went to Doaks....it appears to be a transparent greyish/dull blue...unfortunately i forgot to ask him the chemical composition because we got to talking about so many things i lost track.......next time i'm going to write up a list of things to ask him and stick to it...not get side tracked.....he's an interesting and knowledgeable man.....
thanks for the info titanium....

Titanium
12-03-2001, 10:12 PM
Antonio ,

no need to discard the Chromium Oxide , just
don't hand mull , buy it tubed .
See if Mr.Grahams [ pigments in walnut oil ]
sells it or Mr.Doak.

Cobalt blue , do some reading up , see if you
can work with it . Ask Mr. Doak .

Blue Ochre is Iron Phosphate , occurs naturally
and is also man - made . I saw it as an
agricultural product.
It is a grey blue if compared to a true blue , but
with the Iron Oxides , it is a real pleasure.

I have both the dry pigment and Mr.Doak's tubed
Blue Ochre . Have not ground it , as of yet , but
I do intend to also make it.
Best Wishes to you and your painting.
Titanium

antonio
12-04-2001, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Titanium


Blue Ochre is Iron Phosphate , occurs naturally
and is also man - made . I saw it as an
agricultural product.
It is a grey blue if compared to a true blue , but
with the Iron Oxides , it is a real pleasure.

I have both the dry pigment and Mr.Doak's tubed
Blue Ochre . Have not ground it , as of yet , but
I do intend to also make it.
Best Wishes to you and your painting.
Titanium

Thanks for the info, especially on the blue ochre(iron phospate).
I do intend to grind some myself.
Just out of curiousity what is the agricultural use of blue ochre ?
Again many thanks to you and sarkana for your help.
Antonio

Scott Methvin
12-05-2001, 09:35 PM
Just mull paint with raw cold pressed linseed oil. You can't go wrong. Don't add a solvent. Use whatever after the fact. You want a good basic paint that has a good working bindar, also one that has the pigment particles held in an even suspension.

It's good to experiment, but stand oil is best when added to good basic paint as a medium. Walnut oil will yellow eventually and is not as good overall as good quality linseed oil.

The best thing in the world to use is your washed linseed oil.

You want heavily pigmented paint, add more pigment not sticky oils.

sarkana
12-06-2001, 09:32 AM
with all due respect, i actually have found walnut oil to be far *less* yellowing than any linseed oil. it dires more slowly, and the paint film it forms is not as tough as linseed. but in all other ways walnut is quite desirable.

washing your own oil is a great way to go. i know a woman who shakes the oil in soda bottle with successive washes of bentonite (clay). then she puts it in a sunny window until it's bleached to a light color.

Scott Methvin
12-06-2001, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by sarkana
with all due respect, i actually have found walnut oil to be far *less* yellowing than any linseed oil. it dires more slowly, and the paint film it forms is not as tough as linseed. but in all other ways walnut is quite desirable.

washing your own oil is a great way to go. i know a woman who shakes the oil in soda bottle with successive washes of bentonite (clay). then she puts it in a sunny window until it's bleached to a light color.

Sharilyn,
Walnut oil WILL yellow eventually. Along with slower drying and less flexible paint film-it isn't as good as linseed.

Bleaching linseed oil in the sun is not the same as washing it clear. It will not be perminent and will go back to it's original yellow after sitting in the dark for a time. A thorough(?) washing will take the yellow out for good.

Einion
12-09-2001, 10:29 AM
Scott you might like to compare these quotes. On the one hand from the <A HREF=http://www.danielsmith.com/inksmith-evolution-of-oil.html>Daniel Smith</A> site:
"...the northern Italian painters favored the use of walnut oil, which archivists believe contributed to the poor preservation of their works."

But much more authoritatively on the other:
"Further medium analysis of the underlying paint layers showed all sampled areas to be composed of walnut oil, a medium widely employed throughout Italy at this time and generally preferred to linseed oil because of its non-yellowing properties. The linseed oil layer, while seemingly applied relatively early in the painting’s history, was not thought to be original... it was also highly improbable if not inconceivable that del Sarto, having consciously selected a non-yellowing medium for the paint itself, would then choose to apply a... thick layer of the yellowing linseed oil over its surface."
<A HREF=http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/pub/techbul/TB22_chp4.pdf>National Gallery technical bulletin.</A>

"That drying oil films yellow more the greater the unsaturation of the oil is well known. The discoloration is particularly perceptible in whites and light tints. As a result, the old masters ground their white paints in walnut oil at an early date, and later in popyseed oil. More recently safflower oil has been employed. These oils have a much lower degree of unsaturation than the linseed oil commonly used in the artists' colored tube paints commercially available."
<A HREF=http://aic.stanford.edu/jaic/articles/jaic24-02-002.html>JAIC article.</A>

This one in particular should be noted:
"All through the history of art, artists have used, preferred and recommended walnut oil over linseed oil except for a brief period during the mid 19th century when poppy seed oil was used to good effect by the French Impressionists. Then in the 1920's, debate arose over which oil, walnut, poppy seed or linseed, was better for artists' color."
<A HREF=http://www.artpurveyors.com/grmoiltech.html>Artpurveyors.com article.</A>

That walnut (and other nut oils) become rancid faster than linseed is apparently a myth perpetrated by many sources, including <A HREF=http://www.sanders-studios.com/tutorial/historyanddefinitions/dryingoils.html>Sanders Studios</A>. Also note on this page he quotes Mayer "In practical usage, correctly executed normal oil paintings do not turn yellow," a clear example of where modern research directly contradicts one of his pronouncements, and a good indicator of why primary research is so important if you care about stuff like this.

Einion

Scott Methvin
12-09-2001, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Einion
Scott you might like to compare these quotes. On the one hand from the <A HREF=http://www.danielsmith.com/inksmith-evolution-of-oil.html>Daniel Smith</A> site:
"...the northern Italian painters favored the use of walnut oil, which archivists believe contributed to the poor preservation of their works."

But much more authoritatively on the other:
"Further medium analysis of the underlying paint layers showed all sampled areas to be composed of walnut oil, a medium widely employed throughout Italy at this time and generally preferred to linseed oil because of its non-yellowing properties. The linseed oil layer, while seemingly applied relatively early in the painting’s history, was not thought to be original... it was also highly improbable if not inconceivable that del Sarto, having consciously selected a non-yellowing medium for the paint itself, would then choose to apply a... thick layer of the yellowing linseed oil over its surface."
<A HREF=http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/pub/techbul/TB22_chp4.pdf>National Gallery technical bulletin.</A>

"That drying oil films yellow more the greater the unsaturation of the oil is well known. The discoloration is particularly perceptible in whites and light tints. As a result, the old masters ground their white paints in walnut oil at an early date, and later in popyseed oil. More recently safflower oil has been employed. These oils have a much lower degree of unsaturation than the linseed oil commonly used in the artists' colored tube paints commercially available."
<A HREF=http://aic.stanford.edu/jaic/articles/jaic24-02-002.html>JAIC article.</A>

This one in particular should be noted:
"All through the history of art, artists have used, preferred and recommended walnut oil over linseed oil except for a brief period during the mid 19th century when poppy seed oil was used to good effect by the French Impressionists. Then in the 1920's, debate arose over which oil, walnut, poppy seed or linseed, was better for artists' color."
<A HREF=http://www.artpurveyors.com/grmoiltech.html>Artpurveyors.com article.</A>

That walnut (and other nut oils) become rancid faster than linseed is apparently a myth perpetrated by many sources, including <A HREF=http://www.sanders-studios.com/tutorial/historyanddefinitions/dryingoils.html>Sanders Studios</A>. Also note on this page he quotes Mayer "In practical usage, correctly executed normal oil paintings do not turn yellow," a clear example of where modern research directly contradicts one of his pronouncements, and a good indicator of why primary research is so important if you care about stuff like this.

Einion

Hi,
Thanks for the info.

I am not a big fan of walnut oil or poppyseed. They both dry too slow and have other short-comings. Good quality raw cold-pressed linseed oil isn't that easy to find. In other words-expensive. From what I understand from all the noise out there, they ALL yellow eventually. I try to minimize this basic rule of physics with 2 weapons.

1)I wash my oil and try to get all the "bad" stuff out before I use it. Sun bleaching is only a temporary fix and not to be confused with sun thickening.

2)I paint anticipating a degree of yellowing later on. I save my clearest oil for large sky areas, etc.

This is one of those arguments that can't really be resolved. There are other properties besides yellowing that are also important to me concerning the linseed. Handling and paint making for starters.

Artists have about a 600 year history of people just like us looking for the magic bullet. I can post about 100 recipes for boiling, washing and many other magic treatments to tease the various oils into complience.

I have learned a few things that work for me after researching Merrifield, Doerner, Eastlake, the bulletins and many others.

Keep it simple.

Find the best raw materials you can and make your own paint. Home made paint is far better than the store bought kind. Lead is our friend and so is linseed oil. Understanding your materials is the key to building a painting that will last and do what you want it to do. Yellowing is part of the aging process, period.

Work with it and anticipate it.

I'm getting old and opinionated (today is my b'day)

ps, I always enjoy your posts.

Titanium
12-09-2001, 12:26 PM
!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY SCOTT !!!!

and a wish for you to have many , many
more birthdays in good health.

From Titanium.

P.S Caravaggio's Supper at Emmaus is in
Walnut Oil .
As is Uccello's - St George.

Fear not walnut , works and lasts .

It is also along with other low linolenic acid
oils , the better drying oil for use with the
coat hardener and embrittler - zinc oxide.

Lead White users are lucky enough to work
with linseed oil.

Titanium
12-09-2001, 12:54 PM
!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY SCOTT !!!!

and a wish for you to have many , many
more birthdays in good health.

From Titanium.

P.S Caravaggio's Supper at Emmaus is in
Walnut Oil .
As is Uccello's - St George.

Fear not walnut , works and lasts .

It is also along with other low linolenic acid
oils , the better drying oil for use with the
coat hardener and embrittler - zinc oxide.

Lead White users are lucky enough to work
with linseed oil.

Scott Methvin
12-09-2001, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Titanium
!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY SCOTT !!!!

and a wish for you to have many , many
more birthdays in good health.

From Titanium.

P.S Caravaggio's Supper at Emmaus is in
Walnut Oil .
As is Uccello's - St George.

Fear not walnut , works and lasts .

It is also along with other low linolenic acid
oils , the better drying oil for use with the
coat hardener and embrittler - zinc oxide.

Lead White users are lucky enough to work
with linseed oil.

Thanks Khaimraj,

I think the Mona Lisa is also walnut.
I am just not a fan. I know you love it. I painted one of my favorite paintings with walnut and it drove me absolutely crazy waiting for various passages to dry. Linseed and lead. That's my birthday wish to all.
Happy sunday!

antonio
12-09-2001, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Titanium
[B

P.S Caravaggio's Supper at Emmaus is in
Walnut Oil .
As is Uccello's - St George.

Fear not walnut , works and lasts .

[/B]

titanium......i read that leonardo used both linseed and walnut oils.....is the mona lisa, virgin of the rocks etc. in walnut or linseed?...or perhaps both ?....the reason i ask is that while the mona lisa's face is full of cracks the hands are relatively crack free.....was a different oil used for the hands?..if so which was which?........just curious.......thanks ...antonio
ps. thanks scott for all your knowledge you're sharing ....you're saving me some valuable time.....i 'm grateful....happy birthday./

Titanium
12-09-2001, 06:45 PM
Antonio - Hello ,

you should ask Scott as he mentioned the
possibility.

Remember that Lead White is the white of
all the Old Masters , so you know that Walnut
and Linseed oils work.

It is those of us using the zinc oxide / titanium
dioxide or just titanium whites , that have to
make the leap of faith.

Enjoy your painting.
Titanium

sarkana
12-10-2001, 09:30 AM
i'm not intending to bash linseed oil, which is a fine and lovely vehicle for oil paint. the tough film it quickly forms is unmatched.

but i'm really into the walnut right now. i've also tried combinations of walnut and linseed oils, which seem to work fine.

i've ground lead carbonate into both pure walnut and linseed oils and both seem to work. lead white is such a fast drier that i liked having it dry a little slower in the walnut oil. but the best lead white i have was ground in linseed with about 25% walnut oil. the best texture of the lot.

walnut has a further advantage of being available at most health food stores! for those midnight painting sessions when you run just short...

french.painter
10-31-2004, 11:07 AM
Hi, dear painters!
I find hand grinding easier with walnut oil than with linseed. But for non siccative pigments like cadmiums or ivory black, I prefer linseed because walnut is too long to dry. If you want a really non yellowing oil, use poppy oil, wich also give brittle films...
If you want to grind your pigment in a thickened linseed oil (blown oil, heat-bodied oil, sun-thickened oil) you will have to thin it with a solvent. If not, it will be impossible to put as much pigment in it as in a commercial paint.
Stand oil yellows less than crude oil, because a part of the more yellowing unsaturated acids (like linolenic acid) are transformed in diacids. So the yellowing responsible "cétones conjuguées" (sorry, I don't know the english words: may be "conjugated ketones" ?) occure less in this kind of binder.
To all the good ideas already expressed here in order to fight paint yellowing I will add mine: take much care, when you grind, to disperse your pigment in the less possible amount of binder. As an exemple, if you grind your ultramarine in 60g of oil for 100g of pigment instead of the about 35g of oil normally required, it will yellow much more with time, even if you use less siccative oils like walnut or poppy. Grinding is harder and longer with high pigmented paints but it gives very superior products.
Enjoy, and remember this old sentence written in one of the old manuscripts describing methods for preparing the so called flemish medium: "Quelques fois ça prend, d'autres point." wich can be translated as "Sometimes it sets, sometimes not".
Sorry for my strange french english.
Salut l'artiste!

WV.Artistry
11-01-2004, 10:00 PM
I'm intrigued by this blue ochre..i posted awhile back about it. It's a synthetically produced oxide correct? except i believe it's not an IRON oxide......
I saw it in dry form today when i went to Doaks....it appears to be a transparent greyish/dull blue...unfortunately i forgot to ask him the chemical composition because we got to talking about so many things i lost track.......next time i'm going to write up a list of things to ask him and stick to it...not get side tracked.....he's an interesting and knowledgeable man.....
thanks for the info titanium....


Iconfile calls their Vivianite (Blue Ochre), and gives some trivia on it. They note it being improperly named Natural Prussian Blue.

http://www.iconofile.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=410:200050

I have both of Doak's Blue Ochres . . . it's a flexible color that reacts differently depending on what's beneath it. Over a dark underpainting it has that deep blue/grey, but over a white underpainting, it resembles the Caribbean Sea.

It's thick pasty paint. Love it.

ckdexterhaven
11-02-2004, 10:26 AM
Remember that Lead White is the white of
all the Old Masters , so you know that Walnut
and Linseed oils work.

It is those of us using the zinc oxide / titanium
dioxide or just titanium whites , that have to
make the leap of faith.

Enjoy your painting.
Titanium

Titanium and Einion, thanks for the scholarly responses here -a great thread. I have been using M. Harding's cremnitz white -his only lead in linseed paint; his others are ground in poppy oil, which I fear is too spongy. I switched from W&N flake No. 2 because I believed that the old masters used lead in linseed. Additionally, I love the handling, blending and drying of lead in linseed oil. After reading this thread and Einion's quotes, I wonder about the danger of severe yellowing. Should I transition back to W&N lead in safflower oil? Is there a decent lead in walnut oil?

french.painter
11-02-2004, 10:57 AM
Dear ckdexterhaven,
When I use commercial ready-to-use tube oil colors, I buy two brands: Old Holland and Blockx. The Old Holland lead white is ground in linseed oil, the Blockx lead white in poppy oil. To paint with a white in walnut oil, I grind it myself, because in Paris, where I live, I can't find such a formulated paint. If you find a ready-to-use lead white in walnut, give me the brand and the way to ship it in Europe!
Salut l'artiste.
Sorry for My Strange French English.

ckdexterhaven
11-02-2004, 02:00 PM
Dear ckdexterhaven,
When I use commercial ready-to-use tube oil colors, I buy two brands: Old Holland and Blockx. The Old Holland lead white is ground in linseed oil, the Blockx lead white in poppy oil. To paint with a white in walnut oil, I grind it myself, because in Paris, where I live, I can't find such a formulated paint. If you find a ready-to-use lead white in walnut, give me the brand and the way to ship it in Europe!
Salut l'artiste.
Sorry for My Strange French English.
I just spent an hour looking up Einion's references & poking around past threads. I'm starting a thread on flake whites in different oils.