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View Full Version : Group WIPs... Theme "Drapery by the Masters"


Rosic
01-24-2005, 10:40 PM
With inspiration from Richard and Florian I have decided to work on a fabric study. There are a lot of old masters works and studies on this topic out there to glean from but this drawing by DÜRER caught my eye and has haunted me for some time saying... JUST DO IT! So here goes....

Instead of a Group WIP thread centered around one artist this thread is based on a theme... Drapery and Fabric studies by the Masters.
Care to join me? Hope so!
Bernie


DÜRER, Albrecht
(b. 1471, Nürnberg, d. 1528, Nürnberg)
http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/d/durer/2/11/3/09draper.html

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Jan-2005/17108-durersmall.JPG
Study of a Drapery
1508
Brush drawing on dark paper with white highlights, 257 x 192 mm
Musée du Louvre, Paris
Study for the Christ in the Coronation of the Virgin section of the Heller Altar.

24"x18" Oil on stretched canvas
Under-painting stage in burnt umber
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Jan-2005/17108-duerer_fabric_study1.JPG

dcorc
01-24-2005, 10:56 PM
Great idea, Bernie!

Dave

bjs0704
01-25-2005, 10:30 AM
What a wonderful idea! It does allow someone to concentrate on learning to get a particular effect.

Your drapery study is looking great! Keep up the good work!

Barb Solomon :cat:

WV.Artistry
01-25-2005, 01:19 PM
Leonardo da Vinci

Study for a seated figure

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jan-2005/53202-Study_for_Seated_Figure_UL.jpg

Study of drapery

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jan-2005/53202-Da-Vinci-small.jpg

Study for Madonna and child

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jan-2005/53202-Study_for_Madonna_and_Child_UL.jpg

WV.Artistry
01-25-2005, 01:23 PM
Albrecht Durer

Study of drapery

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jan-2005/53202-Durer_Study_Of_Drapery_UL.jpg

Study of pillows

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jan-2005/53202-drapery_durer_6pillows_lg.jpg

WV.Artistry
01-25-2005, 03:55 PM
Standing request : I need black chalk.

Chalk : a common mineral consisting of crystallized calcium carbonate; a major constituent of limestone.

Maybe I should go to the drawing forum for this, but since we're discussing studies, many were done in red chalk or black chalk. The Conte Sanguine (French word for "blood") is close enough to red chalk, or Red Ochre in its raw pigment powder form. Bistre (water-soluble brownish-yellow pigment made by boiling wood soot) is darker, but useable for studies, and compatible with Sanguine to accent.

Black chalk eludes me. It's not the same as charcoal, and though Conte might dispute, their brand is not black chalk (or at least does not have the handling or properties of chalk).

A significant difference is probably granular size. Chalk is a very fine dust. It is an extremely fragile thing for a sketch to be . .

The closest I've come to finding something like this is Le Blanc charcoal. But to-date, I haven't found its substitute in a charcoal, pastel, or crayon, and tried as many dollars as I could throw away.

Thanks in advance.

Richard

Alternative : Making your own black chalk (website Prud'hon drawing technique)

http://www.art.net/~rebecca/OnPrudon4.html

Rosic
01-25-2005, 05:11 PM
Another good drapery study by Albrecht Durer...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jan-2005/17108-1durer.JPG

DLGardner
01-26-2005, 08:53 AM
Hi Bernie and all. Thanks for inviting me here.

I actually need a study in chain mail if anyone can find one because that is the drapery I am painting right now.

These are beautiful and your studies are excellent Bernie. I am subscribing to this thread in hopes that I can come back here later, after I learn how to paint chain mail and finish the half dozen or so paintings I'm trying to accomplish by March. I do want to give this a whirl. What would be really interesting is taking different kinds of fabric and trying them to see the difference. I see heavy satin here and some linen. Wouldn't it be cool to compare some of the other ones also? Fun thread.

Dianne

Rosic
01-26-2005, 09:11 AM
What would be really interesting is taking different kinds of fabric and trying them to see the difference. I see heavy satin here and some linen. Wouldn't it be cool to compare some of the other ones also? Fun thread.

Dianne
Great idea Dianne... including the chain mail!
Bernie

DLGardner
01-26-2005, 09:18 AM
Yeah, wish there was an expert who could help me now!

Dianne

Rosic
01-26-2005, 11:00 AM
Dianne... hope these references help...
Medieval Clothes References (http://www.3d.sk/medieval/page_01.htm)
Medieval Clothes References 2 (http://www.3d.sk/medieval2/page_01.htm)
Medieval Clothes References 3 (http://www.3d.sk/Costume/page_01.htm)

DLGardner
01-26-2005, 11:17 AM
Thank you so much Bernie for doing that!
The photos are still loading so I can't give you an answer. But I didn't want to sabotage your thread here on drapery so if you have any other help maybe you could put it here.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=245847

I'd like to talk with you a little bit there anyway if you would. I'm about ready to throw in the towel on this one.

I hate being the monkey wrench.

Dianne

bjs0704
01-26-2005, 01:48 PM
That study of the seated figure by Leonardo had always been a favorite drawing of mine. The folds of the fabric and the suggestion of a person underneath is just wonderful.

Thanks for the beautiful drawings, Richard.

Durer is an incredible draughtsman. When I go to the Chicago, I find myself spending ages looking at their etchings of his. The pillows are so full of life that they seem able to walk away.

Richard - I wish that I could answer you. When I was in school, on the occasions that we did do master’s drawings, they told us to just use black pastel for black chalk. How does it differ? If you ever find out anything, let me know, I have often wondered about it myself. (Isn’t that site of Rebecca’s incredible? It is really well researched and well written.)

Drapery does seem to be one of those things that isn’t really that hard to learn but, really adds zip to paintings after a person learns how. I’ve had trouble learning to get the effect in oil, but could get the effect of drapery in pastel fairly easily.

By the way, for those who need more of an explanation, Burnes Hogarth has a whole book on drapery. Jack Hamm’s “Drawing the Head and Figure” is good on basic folds and how drapery in clothing behaves. Hamm’s book “Still Life Drawing and Painting” talks about drapery for still life composition. All of these books are drawing books, but much of their information will apply to oil painting.

I am wanting to give this a try. I have always been irritated that I could draw drapery in pastel really well and then I would try in oil and would do lousy. There is just probably something that I haven’t learned about oil painting.



This is from Michelangelo’s Sistine Chapel fresco. It is The Persian Sibyl.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Jan-2005/11410-persiansybil.jpg

And this is from one of Ingres paintings. It is Odysseus. Study for the Triumph of Homer. 1850? Oil on canvas. Musée des Beaux-Arts, Lyon, France.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Jan-2005/11410-ingresodysseus.jpg

I will try Ingres’ painting first. Then, I may try Michelangelo’s sibyl.

Barb Solomon :cat:

Rosic
01-26-2005, 04:44 PM
Barb... can't wait to see you render that green!

Rosic
01-26-2005, 10:01 PM
What would be really interesting is taking different kinds of fabric and trying them to see the difference. I see heavy satin here and some linen. Wouldn't it be cool to compare some of the other ones also? Fun thread.

Dianne

Here's a good link concerning this very topic.
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14739

WV.Artistry
01-27-2005, 01:54 AM
Are you expanding this thread to "non-studies", and instead, examples of fabric?

Rose Adélaïde Ducreux
Self-Portrait (1791)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Jan-2005/53202-Rose_Ducreux_Self-Portrait.jpg

Jean Auguste Dominique Ingres
Princesse Albert de Broglie (1853)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Jan-2005/53202-Ingres_Princess_Albert_de_Broglie_UL.jpg

Juan Joaquín Agrasot
Young Bacchus (1872)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Jan-2005/53202-Young_Bacchus_UL.jpg

WV.Artistry
01-27-2005, 02:16 AM
Marguerite Gerard (1761 - 1837)
The Piano Lesson

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Jan-2005/53202-Gerard_Marguerite_The_Piano_Lesson_UL.jpg

Jacques-Louis David (1748 - 1825)
Portrait of a Young Woman in a Turban

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Jan-2005/53202-Portrait_of_a_young_Woman_in_a_Turban_UL.jpg

WV.Artistry
01-27-2005, 02:25 AM
Franz Xavier Winterhalter
Lady Middleton 1863

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Jan-2005/53202-Winterhalter_Julia_Luise_Bosville_Lady_Middleton.jpg

Rosic
01-27-2005, 08:41 AM
Got to paint a little yesterday.

I decided to paint the garments purple because it signifies royalty in the Bible.
Here are my color combos used to get the purples I used....

dioxazine purple
alizarin crimson + cobalt blue
aalizarin crimson + paynes gray
alizarin crimson + viridian
alizarin crimson + sap green

All lightened whit titanium white.
Ivory black was used in the darkest areas.

Sorry about the glare.
Bernie

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Jan-2005/17108-durer2.JPG

Tay
01-27-2005, 02:13 PM
Bernie,

your study looks great.

I'm working on a sort of study. It's what I paint on when not in the mood for more serious work. Not really planned to be completed. Below is the painting and a section of fabric I did several weeks ago. I just repainted the face. It actually looks better now. LOL

18 x 24 oil on canvas, The Small Cowerper Madonna after Raphael C1505

Rosic
01-27-2005, 03:05 PM
Tay... looking good! Please share this over in the Rapheal thread in the figure forum.

Question for Tay and anyone else....
What do you find to be the most challenging part of rendering folds in fabric?
With this one I am finding (for me) it is much easier to paint the the concave folds vs the convex ones... sounds silly huh?

Bern

guillot
01-27-2005, 05:15 PM
SUPER idea Bernie!!!! Let me get Velazquez out of my way, and I'll be here for some fabric studies too !!! :clap:

Tina

Rosic
01-29-2005, 08:46 AM
SUPER idea Bernie!!!! Let me get Velazquez out of my way, and I'll be here for some fabric studies too !!! :clap:

Tina

Sounds great Tina!!!!!!!!!!

Here's my latest update...
working the same palette as listed earlier.
Bernie

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Jan-2005/17108-durer3.JPG

Biki
01-29-2005, 01:55 PM
Bernie,

this is fantastic.!!

i saw it on WOYE, so popped over here to see what you were up to.

If i only had time, i would join you. :D

guillot
01-29-2005, 03:17 PM
Question for Tay and anyone else....
What do you find to be the most challenging part of rendering folds in fabric?
With this one I am finding (for me) it is much easier to paint the the concave folds vs the convex ones... sounds silly huh?

Bern

Hey Bernie,

No doesn't sound silly at all!! Look at this example I've scanned from "Artistic Secrets to Painting Tonal Values" by Alex Kedzierski on convex and concave:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Jan-2005/5957-convex_concave.jpg

The same principles apply here with folds. I did this as an exercise one time - it didn't turn out as good as the above, but it did help me get a better understanding of the way the tonal values affect what's "in" and what's "out".

Some other good tips from this book are that:
"1. A bright dark color grabs our attention faster and holds our interest longer than a dull light color.
2. The shadow side of a white or light-valued object can be very much darker than the light side of a colored or dark-valued object.
3. The intensity of light dictates the way the intensity of shadows is depicted and the amount of visible texture.
4. Shadows describe form.
5. Reflected light is influenced by both the light source and the surface from which the reflection emanates.
6. Reflected light is never as light as the value of the light side of an object.
7. A concave shape is immediately recognizable by the fact that it's shadow side is nearest to the light source and its light side is opposit.
8. The absence of reflected light in a shadow suggests a concave form, while the inclusion of reflected light in a shadow suggests a convex form."


Concave forms are also known as negative forms.

I hope that is helpful :)

Tina

Rosic
01-29-2005, 03:23 PM
Thanks Tina... this is exactly what I needed!!!!!!!!!!!
Bern

Carey Griffel
01-29-2005, 03:31 PM
Wow...absolutely AWESOME thread!!

It's all well and good to say that painting one thing should be no different than painting another thing as it's all about "observation", etc, but in reality, painting, say, fabric or a person *is*, in fact, quite a bit more difficult than painting, say, a spring meadow.

Inspired by this thread, yesterday I set out a piece of fabric and did a "study" with my pencil. Turned out better than I thought it would--not great, but better ;) --and as I worked on it for about an hour, I realized how *complex* it was, how it's *not* just a random mass of shapes, some shadows here, some highlights there--there are definite *rules* according to where the shadows are, the midtones, the highlights, the reflected light, etc. If you don't include all those complex elements, then your fabric folds will no doubt look fake.

Tragically (well, it's tragic to me!!), doing people is the same thing...we are so used to *seeing* people, really *looking* at them as we don't look at other objects, that if you are slightly off here and there, it's glaringly apparent. And since, we usually (at least I hope! :eek: ) see people *in* fabric, well, then we all have high expectations of what that should look like, as well.

*Sigh* When I screw up some aspect of a horse's anatomy, at least only horse people realize it. :p

~!Carey

Carey Griffel
01-29-2005, 03:32 PM
PS--GREAT info, Tina!! Thanks so much for that!!

:)

~!Carey

Squib
01-30-2005, 03:41 PM
Just had to pop in and say I've been following this thread closely, and Bernie - WOW !!!! What a wonderful study you are doing. Beautiful. I am really tempted to join in. Well done. :clap: :clap:

Tay
01-31-2005, 02:02 AM
The most fustrating part for me......

Having to stop. Once the paint dries there is no more blending. I am never able to work more that about two hours at a time. It is hard to walk away when half way done with a section. Also, remembering to step back away from the canvas. I get caught up in the details to much. I have started setting a timer. Every 20 mins. I walk back a few paces and look at my progress. My work is moving much faster. I don't feel as obligated to put in so much detail.

Florian
01-31-2005, 06:54 AM
Bernie, great thread and your drapery study is excellent. :clap: :clap: :clap:
As son as I have time I´ll join this.

Florian

WV.Artistry
01-31-2005, 03:14 PM
Dieric Bouts (1415-1475)
Annunciation -- Detail 1
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Jan-2005/53202-Dieric_Bouts_1415-1475,_Annunciation_UL.jpg

Jan van Eyck (1390-1441)
Genter Altar Annunciation Angel -- Detail 1
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Jan-2005/53202-Jan_van_Eyck_1390-1441_Genter_Altar_Annunciation_Angel_UL.jpg

Jan van Eyck (1390-1441)
Paele Madonna -- Detail 1
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Jan-2005/53202-Paele_Madonna_Detail_1_UL.jpg

Paele Madonna -- Detail 2
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Jan-2005/53202-Paele_Madonna_Detail_2_UL.jpg

Paele Madonna -- Detail 3
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Jan-2005/53202-Paele_Madonna_Detail_3_UL.jpg

Rosic
02-01-2005, 06:19 AM
Bernie, great thread and your drapery study is excellent. :clap: :clap: :clap:
As son as I have time I´ll join this.

Florian
I was hoping so... we can learn a lot from your expertise in this area.
Bernie

bjs0704
02-01-2005, 12:26 PM
Bernie - This has been such a wonderful and interesting thread! :clap:

For the green in the original, I believe that Utretch’s sap green will be pretty close to giving the same effect. It is such a brilliant color.

Your study is looking wonderful in purple! The color is looking so rich and elegant! :clap: :clap:

I am going to have to think about whether I find concave or convex curves harder. I do find that getting good blends to be part of my troubles.

Richard - You have chosen some excellent examples of draperies in master’s paintings. I have really been enjoying the “show”. The David portrait is very interesting.

I have always loved Northern Renaissance painting. Isn’t the robe in the Jan Van Eyck incredible? :clap: :clap:

Tay - You are off to a beautiful start! Your colors are excellent. What colors are you using, particularly the green? :clap:

Biki - It’s good to see you!:wave:

Tina - Thanks, that is an excellent demo on convex and concave. I am going to have to study this a little bit! :clap: :clap:

Carey - It’s good to see you!:wave:

Florian - Hi! Thanks for stopping in! :wave:


I have finished my outlines for my "Ingres". Next, I will work on a grisaille using Lead White, Green Earth and Ivory Black. Then, maybe, I will be able to tell Bernie whether the convex or concaved curves are easier. :)

Rosic
02-01-2005, 02:57 PM
Barb... such a pleasant surprise to click on this thread and see your post and work. I can't wait to see what you do with that beautiful green.

I wanted to include Florian's thread from sometime back because of the great info in it about fabric folds... Bouguereau, la leçon difficile WIP (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226556)

Bernie

PS... Tina, that tutorial you included has helped me a lot!

guillot
02-01-2005, 10:44 PM
PS... Tina, that tutorial you included has helped me a lot!

Thanks Bernie, and Barb - really not a tutorial - straight out of the book I referenced. :D That particular book is loaded with great pointers !! Bern - when you mentioned "convex and conclave" it immediately came to my mind. Otherwise - with old age creeping on me and all + all the stress too - I probably wouldn't have even thought of it, LOL. But I'm glad that it has been helpful to you. I know it has been to me.

Hope to do some kind of fabric study this weekend!! Have a life drawing session tomorrow night, another painting on the easel to work some more on, and a fabric study, + the Februrary MOM. WOW, :) Looks like an eventful month for me :)

Tina

bjs0704
02-01-2005, 10:55 PM
Tina - It sounds like a wonderful book! (I ought to see if my library has it or can find a copy for me!)

I have gotten a bit ambitious myself, Tina! I am in a really similar boat!

Thanks for finding such good info for us!

Barb Solomon :cat:

WV.Artistry
02-02-2005, 04:17 PM
Richard - You have chosen some excellent examples of draperies in master’s paintings. I have really been enjoying the “show”. The David portrait is very interesting.



Jacques-Louis David (1748 - 1825)
Portrait of a Young Woman in a Turban

It's especially interesting compared to his other works of cloth. The purposeful roughness of the composition is an illusion disguising meticulous technique. I highly appreciate his utilizing a value scheme that avoids absolute white. There's a few other things, but for cloth, examination shows only pin pricks of white, or mixtures resembling white, i.e., a light purple, light pink, or light yellow.

Example: Brightest point of the composition . .
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Feb-2005/53202-Portrait_Detail_1.jpg

Example: Brightest point of the cloth . .
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Feb-2005/53202-Portrait_Detail_2.jpg

On a minor note, I learned to put red beneath a color from Ingres, but looking at the calendar now, I could suppose he learned it from David. I posted his "Farewell of Telemachus and Eucharis" in the classical forum.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3158699#post3158699

WV.Artistry
02-06-2005, 09:45 PM
On a minor note, I learned to put red beneath a color from Ingres, but looking at the calendar now, I could suppose he learned it from David.

Duh? Ingres was a student of David.

Rosic
02-07-2005, 12:19 PM
Got to paint a little more... working the same palette as mentioned earlier. Going to let this dry then sculpt the folds a bit more then move on to the leg, BG, etc.

Barb... how is yours coming along?

Bern

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Feb-2005/17108-durer4.JPG

WV.Artistry
02-07-2005, 12:32 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Feb-2005/53202-Durer_WIP_1.jpg

Florian
02-07-2005, 05:50 PM
Barb and Richard good start.
Bernie, looking great.


I started my drapery study, it´s a pencil drawing. The face in the drawing is just a fast sketch and will not be this in the final painting; my daughter will be my model. I thought to show just the drapery painting in this thread and a post the finished painting in a new thread in the oil forum. I hope it´s ok. The painting will be 100 x 70 cm ( 40” x 28” ca.)

Florian

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Feb-2005/39426-Dani_B_01.jpg

guillot
02-07-2005, 08:25 PM
Wow BERNIE !! :clap: great work there!!

Florian - that's a beautiful study so far!!!

Tina

Rosic
02-07-2005, 08:57 PM
Florian... definitely a drapery study in that one! I look forward to seeing this one come to life and all the good stuff we'll get out of it about your drapery techniques.
Bernie

dcorc
02-08-2005, 03:03 AM
There are so many super things going on around this forum it's impossible to keep up with them all!!

There's wonderful work, great reference images, and lots of very valuable information

This is a 5-star thread - or it certainly should be! ( ;) )

(Note to self - unless I've practiced drapery in the meantime, make sure to firmly veto any suggestions that Richard and Florian should choose the MOMs for 2006 :evil: )

Dave

WV.Artistry
02-08-2005, 08:53 AM
(Note to self - unless I've practiced drapery in the meantime, make sure to firmly veto any suggestions that Richard and Florian should choose the MOMs for 2006 :evil: )

Dave

Florian,

Er bildet einen Witz, weil er Anstrichtuch üben muß. Ich versuche zu erklären, diese Studien bin nicht schwierige Beispiele :)

Für Ihre Studie malte wer den ursprünglichen Anstrich?

Richard

WV.Artistry
02-08-2005, 09:01 AM
Sir Frederick Leighton
1830-1896

Drapery Study for Last Watch of Hero
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Feb-2005/53202-Drapery_Study_UL.jpg

dcorc
02-08-2005, 09:23 AM
Zweifellos ist es ein anderes Bouguereau - und das das gleiche Mädchen und Kleid, wieder

(Babelfish :wave: )

Dave

WV.Artistry
02-10-2005, 09:42 AM
finis'

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Feb-2005/53202-Durer_WIP_2.jpg

Rosic
02-10-2005, 11:36 AM
WOW Richard!
Long live the "King of Fabric"!!!!
Bern

Florian
02-11-2005, 08:56 AM
Florian,

Er bildet einen Witz, weil er Anstrichtuch üben muß. Ich versuche zu erklären, diese Studien bin nicht schwierige Beispiele :)

Für Ihre Studie malte wer den ursprünglichen Anstrich?

Richard

Zweifellos ist es ein anderes Bouguereau - und das das gleiche Mädchen und Kleid, wieder

(Babelfish :wave: )

Dave

Hallo, Richard und Dave

Ich weiss, dass Dave Witze macht. :wink2: Wie Dave richtig bemerkt hat ist nach Bouguereau, das Kleid wird aber andere Farben bekommen und das Mädchen wird das Gesicht meiner Tochter bekommen.
Übrigens, wir könnten öfters in deutsch schreiben. :D

Here’s the translation

Hello Richard and Dave

I know Dave is joking. :wink2: Obviously it´s after Bouguereau, how Dave mentioned, but the colours will be different and the girl will have my daughter’s face.
BTW, we could frequently write in German. :D

Richard, wow looking great excellent drapery study. :clap:

Florian :wave:

WV.Artistry
02-11-2005, 11:12 AM
Danke.

Jetzt versuche ich den gleichen farbe entwurf wieder mit der Leonardo Studie für "Madonna".

Diese skizze durch Leonardo:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Feb-2005/53202-Madonna_and_Child_Drapery_UL.jpg

Heute kaufe ich segeltuch. 24x24in (61x61cm). Möchten Sie die Farben kennen? Verfahren?

Florian
02-11-2005, 01:21 PM
Richard, das wäre sehr interressant.

Florian

Carey Griffel
02-11-2005, 01:38 PM
All right, you guys...STOP SHOWING OFF!!! :D :p ( ;) Just teasing you all--actually it's pretty interesting seeing how much German I remember--and not all of what I recall is the two words used in Indiana Jones. :p )

Now schnell--back to painting, you all! :D

~!Carey

WV.Artistry
02-12-2005, 12:52 PM
Fangen Sie Skizze an.

Segeltuch 20x20 Zoll (50.8 Zentimeter)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Feb-2005/53202-Leonardo_WIP_1.jpg

Rosic
02-12-2005, 01:31 PM
Superb Richard... share your process on this one is you will. I always like the detail you go into... I learn a lot from your studies.
Bernie

Oh yea... in English... :D

Florian
02-13-2005, 04:30 PM
Great sketch Richard, it´s in charcoal?

Didn’t have much time to paint lately, I hope can start tomorrow.

Florian

WV.Artistry
02-13-2005, 05:23 PM
. . . it´s in charcoal?

Florian

I will study a sculpture of Michaelangelo for the figure. And hopefully, I will complete the sketch tonight.

Tools
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Feb-2005/53202-Tools_1_UL.jpg

DanaT
02-13-2005, 08:01 PM
Sehr schoene Schizze, meine Herren. Merkwuerdig, in der Klasse von gestern Abend, haben wir uns viel ueber die richtinge entwickeln der Kleidung in der Kunst besprochen.

Sehr shoene Beine, Herr Richard.

WV.Artistry
02-14-2005, 11:51 AM
Hallo Frau Dana :wave:

Skizze wird vollendet.

Jetzt werde ich die Holzkohle mit dem modifizierten Terpentinöl und Farbe zerstören.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Feb-2005/53202-Leonardo_WIP_2_UL.jpg


Florian, ich freue mich darauf, Ihren Fortschritt zu sehen.

Richard

Rosic
02-14-2005, 06:08 PM
Richard... your study is most impressive. This thread is really getting interesting and informative. The language barrier seems to be the only thing holding it back from a five star rating. I realize our German friends (that is German isn't it?) know what is going on but I feel this is causing a bit of confusion and some people are feeling left out. That being said... I feel we must diversify to reach more people therefore I'm sharing this message in the following manner.

REDNECK:
Richard, cuss it all t' tarnation... yer study is most impressive. This hyar thread is pow'ful gittin' interestin' an' info'mative. Th' language barrier seems t'be th' only thin' holdin' it back fum a five star ratin'. ah reckanize our German friends (thet is German ain't it?) knows whut is gwine on but ah feel this hyar is causin' a bit of cornfushun an' some varmints is feelin' lef' out. Thet bein' said, cuss it all t' tarnation... ah feel we muss divahsify t'retch mo'e varmints tharfo'e ah sharin' this hyar message in th' follerin' manner.

COCKNEY:
Richard... yor study is most impressive. This fread is right copping interestin' and informative. The 'am sandwich barrier seems ter be the only fin' 'oldin' it hammer and tack from a five star ratin'. I realize us German muckers (that is German ain't it?) know woss gahn on but I feel this is causin' a bit of confusion and some blokes are feelin' left out. That bein' said... I feel we must diversify ter reach more blokes therefore I sharin' this message in the followin' manner.

MORON:
Richard... your study is most ipressibe. Duh.Dis dread is real gettigg innerestigg 'n inf'matibe. De language barrieh seems t' be de on digg holdigg it back from a fibe star ratigg. I realize our Gehman friends (dat is Gehman isn't it, duh...uh...?) know what is goigg on but I feel dis is causigg a bit of confushun 'n some peoble are feeligg left out. Dat beigg said... I feel webuh must dibehsify t' reach more peoble dehef'e I sharigg dis message in the, uh uh uh, followigg manneh.

PIGLATIN:
Ichardray... youray udystay isyay ostmay impressiveyay. Isthay eadthray isyay eallyray ettinggay interestingyay andyay informativeyay. Ethay anguagelay arrierbay eemssay otay ebay ethay onlyyay ingthay oldinghay ityay ackbay omfray ayay ivefay arstay atingray. Iyay ealizeray ouryay Ermangay iendsfray (atthay isyay Ermangay isn'tyay ityay?) owknay atwhay isyay oinggay onyay utbay Iyay eelfay isthay isyay ausingcay ayay itbay ofyay onfusioncay andyay omesay eoplepay areyay eelingfay eftlay outyay. Atthay eingbay aidsay... Iyay eelfay eway ustmay iversifyday otay eachray oremay eoplepay ereforethay Iyay aringshay isthay essagemay inyay ethay ollowingfay annermay

ELMER FUDD:
Wichawd... youw study is most impwessive. Dis thwead is weawwy getting intewesting and infowmative. De wanguage bawwiew seems to be the onwy thing howding it back fwom a five staw wating. I weawize ouw Gewman fwiends (that is Gewman isn't it?) know what is going on but I feew this is causing a bit of confusion and some peopwe awe feewing weft out. Dat being said... I feew we must divewsify to weach mowe peopwe thewefowe I shawing this message in the fowwowing mannew.

HACKER:
richard!!!!!1~~ . !!!!!!!!!!!~~~~~ your study is /\/\ost inmpresSive.. COME TO Y fTP TIHS HREAD SI REALLY GETTING INTARWESTING 4ND INFORMTIVE!!!!!!1 teh lagnuage barerir seems to eb the only thing holding it baX0r form a fiv estar rating!!!!!!!!!!~~~~~ i rea7iz3 our germzan d0Ods (that si gerfman isn"t it!?!?!???!?!?!?!?!? ) KNO\/\/ WHAT OIS GOInG ON VUT I FEEL THIUS OIS CAUSING A BIT OF CONFUSSION AND SOME LAZMERZ AR FFEELIN LEF OTU~~~~~ lolollloll yhat bieng said.. ololollolololl LOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL~~ ~ COME 2 YM T i feel we must diVarsify toi reach mroe lAmers thEref0re i sharInG tHis message in teh follwIng mannar,

:wave: Gotcha!!!!! :D

Carey Griffel
02-15-2005, 03:33 AM
Bernie:

Redneck: That shoah does tickle mah innerds!!

Cockney: (Okay, don't know any of this--maybe Dave can edit a proper comment here for me :p )

Moron: i dont git it but this guy next to me wuz laffing so it must bee funy

Piglatin: Atday asway ethay unniestfay ingthay Iay aveay eadray inay ayay onglay imetay!

Elmer Fudd: Uhuhuhuhuhuh!

Hacker: B3rN13!!!111 u roxx0rz teh Pwnxx0rz!!111 you're humor skilz r 1337!!!1111

:D

Florian
02-15-2005, 06:53 AM
Wow, Richard this is excellent very impressive. :clap:
In which technique will you work on this, underpainting – glazes or more opaque?

I’ll start this evening with the oils; perhaps will be able to post tomorrow the first step.

I agree with Bernie, this is going to be a great thread and very informative, I think we should go on only in the English language, to involve as many people as possible.
It was just a joke as I mentioned that we could frequently write in German, sorry. :(

Florian :wave:

WV.Artistry
02-15-2005, 12:05 PM
That being said...



Which being?

;)

WV.Artistry
02-15-2005, 12:50 PM
. . In which technique will you work on this, underpainting – glazes or more opaque?

Florian :wave:

Palette #1 : Oil Sketch / Purpose: removes charcoal, corrects and refines sketch, tones canvas, and prepares canvas for underpainting.

1. Lead White (opaque)
Mix 1 + 2 Value Light
Mix 1 + 2 Value Med
2. Raw Sienna (translucent)
Mix 2 + 3 Value Med
Mix 2 + 3 Value Dark
3. Indigo (for mixing only)

WV.Artistry
02-15-2005, 03:49 PM
Here's a few more drapery studies:

Ambrogio Bergognone (1453 - 1523)
Italy / student of Leonardo
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Feb-2005/53202-Ambrogio_Bergognone_-_Drapery_Study_for_a_Standing_Man.jpg


Francesco_Salviati (1510 - 1563)
Italy
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Feb-2005/53202-Francesco_Salviati-_Drapery_Studies_for_the_Virgin.jpg


Hans Brosamer (1530 - 1540)
German
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Feb-2005/53202-Hans_Brosamer_1530-1540_Drapery_Study.jpg


John Singleton Copley (1738 - 1815)
American
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Feb-2005/53202-John_Singleton_Copley_-_Drapery.jpg


Unknown Artist
Study of Antiquity
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Feb-2005/53202-Unknown_-_Study_of_Antique_Drapery.jpg

Rosic
02-15-2005, 04:12 PM
It was just a joke as I mentioned that we could frequently write in German, sorry. :(

Florian :wave:
No apologies needed Florian... it was taken as a joke... please note my response was meant as a joke... :D

Richard... thanks for the mixing recipe. Your drapery work is improving... that's saying a lot since it is top notch to begin with.

Florian
02-15-2005, 05:59 PM
Richard, thanks for sharing your palette. Where you find all this great drapery studies?

Bernie, all right. ;)

Finally I was able to start; this is today’s work.

Titanium / Zinc white
Raw / Burned Umber
Lamp Black
Cad red light

Florian

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Feb-2005/39426-Dani_B_1.jpg

Florian
02-16-2005, 05:36 PM
Here’s an update.
My palette:
Indigo Extra
Chromium oxide green
Naples yellow deep

Florian

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Feb-2005/39426-Dani_B_2.jpg

Rosic
02-17-2005, 08:47 AM
Florian... This is going to be gorgeous! Coming along great!
Bern

WV.Artistry
02-17-2005, 10:41 AM
Charcoal removed from canvas . . yummy!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Feb-2005/53202-Mud_1.jpg

Palette #1 : Oil Sketch
Lead White
Raw Sienna
Raw Umber
Indigo

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Feb-2005/53202-Palette_1.jpg

WV.Artistry
02-17-2005, 10:44 AM
Palette #1 : Oil Sketch

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Feb-2005/53202-Leonardo_WIP_3_UL.jpg


Palette #1 : Oil Sketch Detail

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Feb-2005/53202-Leonardo_WIP_4b_Detail_UL.jpg


Now I can begin painting . .

Rosic
02-17-2005, 11:13 AM
Excellent Richard! Thanks for showing the visuals... I look forward to the next stages. Looks good on the wall already BTW!

This proves MC Hammer was a fraud/copycat!

WV.Artistry
02-17-2005, 11:14 AM
. .Where you find all this great drapery studies?



I collect them. But they are always found by accident.

Your daughter is very beautiful -- you are fortunate to have such a model.

Who is manufacturer of paint "Indigo Extra" ?

Florian
02-17-2005, 05:57 PM
Your daughter is very beautiful -- you are fortunate to have such a model.

Who is manufacturer of paint "Indigo Extra" ?

Thanks Richard.

"Indigo Extra" is from Rembrandt.

Your painting is excellent, is very interesting to follow this step by step.

Florian

rosebard
02-17-2005, 08:42 PM
Found this thread and subscribed to see how its develop. AS usual, beauttiful stuff is around. ONe day, I will paint like you guys. For the time been I enjoy just observing the nice works and may I learn something from it. Hopely so.

Keep up the good work everyone. NIce, very nice.

:wave:

Rose Bard

WV.Artistry
02-19-2005, 09:36 AM
a few more . .

Domenico Ghirlandaio (1449-1494)
Italy
Study of Garments
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Feb-2005/53202-Domenico_Ghirlandaio_Study_of_Garments.jpg

Matthias GRЬNEWALD (1470/80?-1528)
Germany
Drapery Study
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Feb-2005/53202-Matthias_GRuNEWALD_Drapery_STudy.jpg

Unknown Artist
Study for the Virgin
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Feb-2005/53202-Unknown_-_Study_for_the_Virgin.jpg

DanaT
02-19-2005, 06:27 PM
Wow, GQ, that Salviati is wonderful. Is it silverpoint?

bjs0704
02-19-2005, 10:07 PM
Bernie - Thanks for posting the link to Florian’s Bouguereau WIP! There is some wonderful information there!

Richard - It is really interesting to compare the David “Young Woman with a Turban” with some of Elizabeth Vigee LeBrun’s portraits, particularly a couple of her self portraits. (I do know that she “borrowed” ideas from David.)

What colors were you using for your drapery? The mixtures are just wonderful!

Gorgeous blues and purples in your drapery study!

Leighton’s Drapery Study for Last Watch of Hero is such a great drawing. It’s interesting to see his initial figure lines too! You have really outdone yourself in researching so many wonderful examples of drapery paintings and drawings! The Ghirlandaio is excellent!

Interesting drawing tools for your drapery study! Have you been working with sanguine!

What are you doing with the charcoal! (I’ve never had this happen to me!?!) Very odd looking yogurt cup!

I love the colors in your palette! I may have to try indigo. Do you ever use other blues?

Florian - I love the idea of using your daughter as the face! The folds in the blouse are wonderful! The skirt is also very lovely!

Jack Hamm’s “Drawing the Head and Figure” (one of my all time favorite figure drawing books) and his “First Lessons in Drawing and Painting” (once called Still Life Drawing and Painting) have some of the best tutorials on fabric that I have ever seen!

Rose Bard - It’s nice to meet you! Thanks for stopping by and joining in our little thread! I hope that you can give it a try. Just start out really simple!

Barb Solomon :cat:

WV.Artistry
02-20-2005, 12:39 PM
Do you ever use other blues?


Great Uncertainty
-- unfinished song by Richard

Chorus:
With great uncertainty, we find our hues . .
and we're
singing jazz now,
'cause we just can not sing
-- the blues.

Paint me,
-- anything
except for this color,

of blue.

http://www.art-agent.com/details.php?piece_id=8839&

WV.Artistry
02-20-2005, 12:43 PM
w/i/p

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Feb-2005/53202-Leonardo_WIP_5_UL.jpg

bjs0704
02-20-2005, 05:05 PM
Richard - Great song! And the color in your painting is getting fabulous!

Very interesting still life for Tsunami relief!

Barb Solomon :cat:

Florian
02-21-2005, 05:30 PM
Thank you Barb, first my daughter didn’t like the idea to take her as model but finally she agreed and let me take some pictures.
BTW, how is going your Ingres?

Locks great Richard!

Here’s an update of mine.


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Feb-2005/39426-Dani_B_3.jpg

Rosic
02-21-2005, 06:53 PM
Richard and Florian... these are two great examples of why I consider you both the Kings of Drapery! Bravo! :clap:
Bernie

bjs0704
02-21-2005, 11:03 PM
Florian - I am glad that she agreed! This is going to be a wonderful painting! The folds are coming along nicely! I love the colors!

Barb Solomon :clap:

Boot
02-23-2005, 06:44 PM
Hi Guys,
Great work, everyone, :clap: :clap: :clap:
quick question - Florian,
how have you undercoated your canvas? looks like a heavy solid layer of ochery hueness, from here.
boot.

Florian
02-24-2005, 06:40 AM
Boot,

Normally I prepare the canvas with 2 or 3 coats off gesso and after I fix the pencil sketch with thin coat of a mixture of row umber and yellow ochre diluted with turpentine and linseed oil (ca 4/1). It gives a nice surface to paint over.

Florian

Squib
02-25-2005, 02:27 PM
Just checking in again to see what's going on here. Marvelloes work, and wonderful references. Well done :clap: :clap: :clap:

Boot
02-25-2005, 07:49 PM
Florian ,
thanks for sharing your tips, it's gorgeous!

thanks to all for sharing the resources on fabric studies as well, very inspiring.
boot.

Florian
02-27-2005, 11:54 AM
Here´s an update. This will be the last post of this painting, because I´m starting now with the face, hands and background and this thread is for drapery studies. I will post the finished painting in oil forum.

Thanks for watching Florian :wave:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Feb-2005/39426-Dani_B_4.jpg

sbeckett
03-02-2005, 12:10 AM
Did the daVinci in 12X16.
The first night was more pushing paint than applying. It mostly got covered anyway but very relaxing actually with a nice web radio channel going and the cat in the closet. (damn, that reminds me.) The second night I did mostly the light parts with soft brushes. By the 3rd session it was all dry, making it hard to match colors with session 2 without redoing a lot. No longer relaxing.
-Steve

DLGardner
03-02-2005, 09:56 AM
Wow Steve, beautiful!

Dianne

Florian
03-03-2005, 06:15 PM
Excellent Steve, verry well done! :clap:

Florian

Rosic
03-03-2005, 06:36 PM
Steve... I echo Dianne and Florian's sentiments! :clap:
Bernie

bjs0704
03-05-2005, 11:12 PM
Florian - Your Bouguereau drapery study is fantastic! I hope that you post it somewhere when you finish the face! It will be a lovely painting! The color and the folds in the fabric look great! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Steve - Your Da Vinci drapery study looks great! The monochrome has turned out nicely! You have really done well! Are you going to leave it as it is or add color to it? :cool: :cool: :cool:

Well, here’s how far I have gotten with this project!

Barb Solomon :cat:

sbeckett
03-05-2005, 11:42 PM
Steve - Your Da Vinci drapery study looks great! The monochrome has turned out nicely! You have really done well! Are you going to leave it as it is or add color to it? :cool: :cool: :cool:


Barb Solomon :cat:

Thanks all!
No Barb, that's as far as I'll go. Definitely getting into diminishing returns with the wet over dry.
Wonderful Florian, I'll be watching your progress.
-Steve

bjs0704
03-05-2005, 11:49 PM
Then, "Great Job", Steve! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Barb Solomon :cat:

Rosic
04-05-2005, 12:03 AM
Here's my finished version and new slant on Dürer's drapery study... inspired by Genesis 3:15.
Bernie

The First Promise of a Redeemer
24"x18" Oil on stretched canvas

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Apr-2005/17108-draperytopfinished.JPG
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Apr-2005/17108-draperybottomfinished.JPG

DLGardner
04-05-2005, 12:55 AM
Right on Bernie!
This is gorgeous and I love the inspiration.

Dianne

Here's my finished version and new slant on Dürer's drapery study... inspired by Genesis 3:15.
Bernie

The First Promise of a Redeemer
24"x18" Oil on stretched canvas

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Apr-2005/17108-draperytopfinished.JPG
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Apr-2005/17108-draperybottomfinished.JPG

bjs0704
04-05-2005, 09:28 PM
Bernie

You really did an incredible job! The color is fabulous and the folds in the cloth are wonderful! :clap: :clap: :clap:


Barb Solomon :cat:

Rosic
04-08-2005, 02:29 PM
I toned down those white highlights a bit... :D

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Apr-2005/17108-draperyfinishedwclast.JPG

bjs0704
04-08-2005, 07:50 PM
That does make the purple color seem richer! (And I thought it was fantastic before! It is even better now!):clap: :clap:

Barb Solomon :cat:

jo_b
04-27-2005, 05:01 PM

jo_b
04-27-2005, 05:03 PM
Hi All :wave:

Bernie asked me to post a copy of my Bouguereau's Modesty that I just completed. I painted it as a gift for my daughter's birthday. She is studying for her masters in art history, to be a museum currator, and this is her favorite painting by her favorite artist.

Jodi

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Apr-2005/59346-modesty_finished-resized.jpg

bjs0704
04-27-2005, 10:43 PM
Jodi - Your WB is a wonderful drapery study! The folds and your color choices are wonderful!:clap: :clap: :clap:

Barb Solomon :cat:

dgilane
04-28-2005, 12:16 AM
Wow, Jodi! That's remarkable! How long have you been working on it?

David

jo_b
04-28-2005, 02:54 PM
Thank you David,

It took me about two weeks, but I was also working on a Bierstadt seascape and the Rembrandt landscape from MOM at the same time. I like to work on multiple pieces at a time, Keeps me from getting bored with one piece, and keeps me moving, one piece will be drying, so I work on another, and so on.

Jodi

Squib
04-28-2005, 04:24 PM
Wow - I haven't checked this thread for a while. Great work going on in here. :clap: :clap: :clap: I can remember wanting to join in when this thread started - where did the time go ?

artmom
05-08-2005, 10:29 AM
WOW! Am I glad I stumbled across this.

Wonderful work and thanks for all the references. :D

Lyn

bjs0704
05-08-2005, 02:09 PM
Lyn - Thanks for stopping by - It’s good to see you! :wave:

Barb Solomon :cat:

WV.Artistry
05-11-2005, 11:21 PM
Richard - It is really interesting to compare the David “Young Woman with a Turban” with some of Elizabeth Vigee LeBrun’s portraits, particularly a couple of her self portraits. (I do know that she “borrowed” ideas from David.)


I have a new handle (don't shoot me).

Don't know much about the work of Elizabeth Vigee LeBrun, but here's a link from what appears to be a fan :

http://www.batguano.com/Vigeeartpages.html

Interesting sidenote about Jacques-Louis David, he did some sketches in prison. Here's another "Woman in a Turban". The inscriptions says, "L David did this in chains".

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-May-2005/62433-Woman_in_a_Turban_UL.jpg

WV.Artistry
05-11-2005, 11:29 PM
In March I did this study of the oil painting "Young Woman in a Turban" by Jacques-Louis David.

Sketch : Charcoal/Chalk/Pigment on paper

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-May-2005/62433-Sketch_42_WC.jpg

Detail :

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-May-2005/62433-Sketch_42_WC_Detail.jpg

Squib
05-13-2005, 02:28 PM
I have a new handle (don't shoot me).

Bang !! Bang !! Hi Richard - I missed your input. :) Lovely sketch.

bjs0704
05-13-2005, 03:13 PM
Richard - Your "David" looks lovely! I love the soft colors.

Thanks so much for the link! That is an amazing site! LeBrun really did paint so incredible portraits!

Barb Solomon :cat:

WV.Artistry
05-28-2005, 10:57 AM
a few more ..

Jacques-Louis David [1748–1825]
Death of Socrates
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-May-2005/62433-Death_of_Socrates_UL.jpg

Study for the Oath of the Horatii Sabina
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-May-2005/62433-Study_for_the_Oath_of_the_Horatii_Sabina_UL.jpg

Study of a Draped Woman for Brutus
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-May-2005/62433-Study_of_a_Draped_Woman_for_Brutus_UL.jpg


Daniele da Volterra [1509–1566]
note: opprobrious nickname "Breeches Maker" or "Il Bragghetone" because of commission by Paul IV to supply draperies to some of the nude figures in "Last Judgment" by Michelangelo.

Study for Apostle
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-May-2005/62433-Volterra_-_Study_for_Apostle_UL.jpg

bjs0704
05-28-2005, 03:44 PM
Richard - Thanks for posting those really wonderful drawings! David is one of the best!

Daniele da Volterra’s drawing is gorgeous! But it was a sad chapter in art history!

Barb Solomon :cat:

WV.Artistry
05-28-2005, 05:40 PM
Daniele da Volterra’s drawing is gorgeous! But it was a sad chapter in art history!



If you stumble on any more of Volterra's sketches, I'd be interested in looking them over.

Don't know the history of the man other than his sketch of Michelangelo and that blurb from a Catholicism website. But I interpreted it that, being called the "king of cloth", albeit well intentioned, or in jest, may not always be a good thing.

;)

bjs0704
05-28-2005, 06:22 PM
There was apparently a certain amount of joking about the project at the time. And not many seem know much about Daniele da Volterra. I was surprise at all of the material available on Google about him.

Volterra's drapery and figure drawing is excellent. I will try to keep an eye out for you!

Barb Solomon :cat:

WV.Artistry
05-29-2005, 12:36 AM
Volterra's drapery and figure drawing is excellent. I will try to keep an eye out for you!


Thanks ..

Daniele da Volterra [1509–1566]
Sybil
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-May-2005/62433-Sibyl_UL.jpg