Dimensions in miniature-art [Archive]

View Full Version : Dimensions in miniature-art

Johan Vanhauwaert

01-14-2005, 03:04 AM

Yorky

01-14-2005, 04:02 AM

Don't know about you, but my definition is a tiny painting which would look just as good if it were normal size. (duck0 ;)

Doug

champagneharley

01-14-2005, 07:18 AM

Hello,

Since I began to study miniature-art in 1982, I never heard something about the restrictions in dimensions as described in the different threads. With Champagneharley, I have to state also, that a little painting is not a miniature "in se".
May I do a suggestion: I invite everybody who is a real adept of restrictions in miniature-art to attack me. Maybe I missed something, and there are new rules in painting miniatures. The modern miniature-art!
After we discussed this item at full, I will give some hints for the real miniature-art.

Best regards,
Johan Vanhauwaert
I understand what you're saying. For the sake of restricting posters to this forum they are using SIZE restrictions, not looking at the method 'miniaturism'. I already know that although I paint tiny paintings my detail is probably not sufficient for competition work or to be considered a true 'miniature. I look forward to your insights on this process. I am lucky enough to own two true miniatures, one is over 100 years old, and the brushwork on it is incredible, especially as it's a portrait. You might be interested in seeing it.
http://users.chariot.net.au/~jillian/Auction/Art/MADDALE4.jpg
on my screen that is the size of it.
... this next one is a CLOSE UP - you can see the detail, some being made with a single-hair brush in all probability.
http://users.chariot.net.au/~jillian/Auction/Art/MADDALE5.jpg
This is a miniature 'souvenir' from the Uffizi Gallery in Florence, Italy, of one of their most popular paintings for many years. The style of the miniature is Victorian, rather than an exact copy of the original from several centuries earlier. (Carlos Dolci, Mary Magdalen) being this one ...
http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/d/dolci2.jpg

I look forward to your information.

Regards,
Jillian

AriadneArts

01-14-2005, 05:00 PM

Johan, I, too, am interested in hearing what you have to teach regarding miniatures, since it is my understanding that you paint in the medieval style, and that is a particular interest of mine. At the moment, I'm painting mostly in egg tempera, using pigments I grind myself by hand and fresh egg yolk. I'm relatively new to egg tempera, having been using this medium for less than one year.

yoyita_yoyita

01-14-2005, 06:06 PM

Johan:
where is the article you published in wetcanvas?

champagneharley

01-14-2005, 07:37 PM

Don't know about you, but my definition is a tiny painting which would look just as good if it were normal size. (duck0 ;)

Doug
Doug, we really art going to have to get you to try miniatures!
:evil:
Just think ... no more 'wasted' offcuts from your watercolors.
Regards,
Jillian

Mary Smith

01-14-2005, 11:54 PM

Loving this new group! I have to tell Laverne about this. Jillian, those "offcuts" are not wasted, we all sell them as bookmarks! LOL!
Mary

champagneharley

01-15-2005, 09:04 AM

Loving this new group! I have to tell Laverne about this. Jillian, those "offcuts" are not wasted, we all sell them as bookmarks! LOL!
Mary
I bet you'd get more $s if you sold them as miniatures. *lol*
Plus, one bookmark will make THREE miniature paintings. So, there is triple for you.
:evil:
Regards,
Jillian

Johan Vanhauwaert

01-15-2005, 10:31 AM

Hello everybody,
it took a while before I a could answer, one has to understand that I really have a busy life.
OK Let's go: I saw and admired the many of paintings which have been done, I only can say: congratulations to all of you; you did very well!!! Using appropriate materials you will still do better!
At the end of this and my further letters I will set some "think abouts". If you are interested we can start a very interesting discussion about the many misunderstandings about parchment and miniatures.
As a fact I live at some miles from Bruges which was the Western art-capital in the 15°th century and as a matter of interest; maybe if You will get something I can look for it. There are four great libraries with hundreds and hundreds illuminated books from ~ 1000 till 1500. It was also the city of the Van Eyck brothers, Rogier van der Weyden, Memling and so on.(The Flemish Primitives)
Till Februar 2005 there is in Brugge a great exhibition on falsifications in restauration activities from old masters. For miniaturists this exhibition is extremely important because a great part of it is dedicated to Jef Van der Veken who worked as a restaurator of old Flemish primitives. To this purpose he used medieval materials that have been used by medieval miniaturists. Is this so important to know what has been used in medieval times. Without any doubt: yes, yes, and yes!!! If they could do what we can do no more... than we have to learn at first: which methods were they using to achieve.
If I am speaking about the Flemish primitives who worked with oil on their wood-panels; don't be surprised: all of this masters worked also as miniaturists!!! This is a first statement: if you are able to become a master in miniature-painting; you are a master in oil-painting.
Into our first approach; let's speak about this dimensions.

Miniature and Dimensions:

- The miniatures which came to us out of the Middle-Ages are never been bound to any restriction or formulation about sizes.
- The restrictions and sizes which are now usable are local and bound, in general, to groups of miniaturists: for example "The Royal Society of Miniature Painters" at London and the "Society of Miniaturists" state that a miniature has to have a list- outside no greather than 175 X 125 mm or 7 X 5 inches. ( 1 inch is about 25 mm). The painted object may not be greather than 1/6 of the real size.
- I am not an adept of this Society and therefore I never can be a member.
In my group in 1988 I teached other rules:

A miniature was a book-illustration in late medieval times and a book can have all kinds of sizes. From mini to maxi size; to speak in modern language.
- So, if it can be hand-hold in a normal manner...there are no restrictions at all.

What is the difference between a little painting and a miniature?

No doubt about: a real miniature has to be painted in a linear way.
A second rule was given by one of our members: A painting can be observed from a distance even a little paint; a miniature must be looked hand-holded.
The linear details have to be so fine that you only can see the details if you see them at book-hold position. A step further is to look if you still can distinguish details with a magnifying glass.
And here comes the final rule: a paint can never be painted so fine to be a miniature if you are not using the most essential and appropriated materials.

In a second issue I will go further on in describing this essential materials; if at least there is some interest.

THINK ABOUTS:
1. It is a misunderstanding, illuminated missals were made for the only reason of art.
They were made for rich people, who were attend masses (the time of a mass in medieval times was longer than now), and were bored by it. They looked at the paintings and amused themselves, some of the miniatures were really comic or had a slight sensual character.
2. Miniature comes from the Latin contraction: Minia Factura or " Made by the use of red lead".
Monks in the early and dark middle-ages, wrote the capitals of a chapter with red lead. Not for artistic reasons! Most of them were analphabetes and knew whole passages of the texts by heart. The capitals written in red lead were only points of reference, to know where to begin and where to stop.
Also therefore the missals were of such a great size...at least 12 and sometimes more had to follow in the same book.
3. All books were written on calf-parchment...
In medieval times there was a need to ~ 40 calfs to fill one little book. If all the illuminated books we know today were made of calfsparchment; there would not be enough space for people to live!

Have a pleasant week-end,
Best wishes
Johan Vanhauwaert

champagneharley

01-15-2005, 10:43 AM

Ah. I remember now. When a child and learning all I could on my own about art I had seen some illuminated books on parchment and now remember them being 'miniatures'. I was about 8 years old, I read about them in my encyclopedia. I went to my church and asked to see such books. The rector was very impressed and actually bought some parchment paper for me. The first adult to ever take me seriously when I said I knew I was an artist.
So, yes indeed, I remember them being called that.

I'm reading with interest.
Thank you so much for taking the time to write this.
I hate some things being lost, and newer things given 'rules' to comply with what the newer thought is.
Regards,
Jillian

Johan Vanhauwaert

01-15-2005, 11:16 AM

champagneharley

01-15-2005, 11:24 AM

Hello Champagneharley,

thanks for the reply.
I think if you were born here, there should have been two... to ask for parchment and miniatures. I illustrated my shool-books with miniatures at nine without knowing something about miniature-art.
I went to a papershop when I was twelve to look for parchment. As for you, they gave me parchment- PAPER!!!

So have still a very good week-end,
Johan Vanhauwaert
It was so very long ago I don't remember, but I'd bet it was paper. To me it was expensive, but then, anything at that time would have seemed expensive to me.
I was fascinated by all painting and drawing. I knew nothing of modern artworks, as I was only looking at encyclopedias. At school the art on the walls were either of the Queen of England or Australian Artist Sir Hans Heysen, and he was born in the 1800s (my grandfather used to sit next to him in primary school).
From the first I knew there were artists, I knew that was me. Not because I drew or painted. I just knew I was that person hunched over illustrated manuscript, or standing at an easel. Just wish I had the finely tuned skills.
Thank you for all.
Regards,
Jillian

Johan Vanhauwaert

01-15-2005, 11:27 AM

[QUOTE=yoyita_yoyita]Johan:
where is the article you published in wetcanvas?[/ :) ]

Hello YOYITA,

After I reposted some issues about silverpointdrawings ,I lost every contact with WC and my friends due to a serious computercrash. Since january 2004 I got a new computer and a new number in WC.
I think I was writing an article about parchment making but believe me or not everything was lost for as long as I know.
If will look if there still exists something and will let you know.
Everhow, I am happy with your friendship.
:cool:
Best regards from Flanders,
Johan Vanhauwaert

Johan Vanhauwaert

01-15-2005, 11:34 AM

[QUOTE=AriadneArts]Johan, I, too, am interested in hearing what you have to teach regarding miniatures, since it is my understanding that you paint in the medieval style, and that is a particular interest of mine. At the moment, I'm painting mostly in egg tempera, using pigments I grind myself by hand and fresh egg yolk. I'm relatively new to egg tempera, having been using this medium for less than one year.[/ :) ]

Hello Eileen,

I can see you are good on way. Painting with egg tempera is not as easy as some may think but I am happy you did it because experience is the way to achieve.
As I wrote I will explain in some issues how I do, not because I am a master but more as a collegue. If you have questions meanwhile I am ready to answer.
Good to have friends! :cool:

Best regards,
Johan Vanhauwaert

Johan Vanhauwaert

01-15-2005, 11:47 AM

Don't know about you, but my definition is a tiny painting which would look just as good if it were normal size. (duck0 ;)

Doug

Dear Yorki,

I saw your galery (I really saw all galeries), and have been surprised by your accurate linear paintings. This is really good.
If you know nothing about me...I am happy for that, because I am not of interest. The only thing that matters is how to paint better miniatures, is it?
Your approach about miniature-painting is not far from the truth but is not so right.
I saw that you are painting aquarelles, or at least you are painting on paper. There is nothing wrong with it, but if you will use other grounds...your paintings would be still more fantastic. This is not a statement...it is the truth!
Is it worth a challenge?

Best regards,
Johan Vanhauwaert

yoyita_yoyita

01-15-2005, 05:28 PM

Johan:

My experience with egg tempera has been with icons, I got slightly trained by a Greek Orthodox priest who had been trained in Tessalonika Greece, but there was more emphasis on the Byzantine requirements. For icons they use prepared wooden panels.

I thought once on getting parchment, but couldn't find any good source. I understand that parchment for book binding is not as good as the ones for miniatures. (Do you do your Aquareles on parchment as well?)

I am not familiar with the acids or ingredients to make the parchment or if it should be prepared on an special way to avoid chemical reactions with pigments.

When you have time I would appreciate information about it. You have a lot of knowledge and experience which I think we all can benefit. For the moment let me thank you for your willingness to train us.

My sources for pigments are
sinopia (http://www.sinopia.com), Kremer (http://www.kremer-pigmente.de/englisch/homee.htm), Zecchi (http://www.zecchi.com/home.htm), Sennelier (http://www.savoirfaire.com) and Natural pigments (http://www.naturalpigments.com)
I suppose you will have others close to you, do please list them as well as sources for other materials.

I am very interested in your experiments with amber as well and I am very happy that you are back in WC.