Understanding how artwork is accepted or rejected in today's church

[kimeart]

Hello everyone,
I am requiring help in opening up my mind to the understanding of Ex 20:4-5 and how artwork is understood (accepted/rejected) by God's people. I am questioning how to address this verse in the context of my artwork (2-D) in the church? How do I implement change or just plant a seed in educating the understanding of people's concept of artwork and the church?
Can someone explain if any other gift that pertains to today's church has ever been as scrutinized, criticized, destroyed, banned or even thought of in the same way that artwork has?

I am studying in art history the Byzantine art period. The course work will not go into the iconoclasm or the destruction of images in the eight century. I am finding it is very important for me to study this at a much deeper level. Having studied very little art history I never knew the implications, distorted beliefs and actions of people using Gods word as a platform to destroy artworks of history. In today's church I see people determine their definition of what artwork is or is not and how they use it to impact the parishioners actions/thinking using this verse (Ex 20:4-5).

Expanding to how people purchase artwork for their homes in context of so called "religious art".
Does anyone think that this is not even a concern in today's church?
Is artwork used in your church to teach?
Are artist's allowed to participate in the service?
Do the leaders of the church define how images are to be used in the church?
Do the same rules apply to other gifts – dance, music, drama etc.?

I greatly appreciate any thoughts to help me in better understanding of how me the artist finds a place in the church.

[SMClement]

I am requiring help in opening up my mind to the understanding of Ex 20:4-5 and how artwork is understood (accepted/rejected) by God's people. I am questioning how to address this verse in the context of my artwork (2-D) in the church? How do I implement change or just plant a seed in educating the understanding of people's concept of artwork and the church?
I stumbled across this forum this morning. I find your question(s) strikes a chord with me, and I'd like to put in my humble opinion.

Understanding a passage of scripture, or for that matter, any literature, hinges greatly on looking at the context. I would back up one verse to include Ex 20:3 to illuminate verses 4 and 5. I see the overall message of these three verses as: "You shall have no other gods. You shall not create an idol in any form what-so-ever. You shall not worship anything else what-so-ever." Also, I found a cross-reference in Deut 4:15-18 that sheds some light on the Exodus passage.

So, how to influence other people in the church? I have no idea here, as I have sat back in frustration for many years, watching for possible ways to use my artistic skills in the context of my church. But, two authors come to mind on the subject: Francis Schaeffer and his son, Franky Schaeffer. The elder Schaeffer wrote "Art and the Bible", and it's very scholarly. (http://www.rationalpi.com/theshelter/art.html) The younger Schaeffer is a also a painter; he wrote "Addicted to Mediocrity: Contemporary Christians and the Arts."

Is artwork used in your church to teach?
Are artist's allowed to participate in the service?
Do the leaders of the church define how images are to be used in the church?
Do the same rules apply to other gifts – dance, music, drama etc.?
I am finally seeing my church opening up to using all forms of artistic expression to teach and glorify God. It is still in it's infancy in regards to the visual arts. Dance started being used not too long ago, and so far it has been used on only a few rare occasions. Recently visual artists were challenged to create a work based on a particular passage of scripture. That's the first time that has happened, and I hope to see more of it.

All forms are previewed in some way by the staff to ensure the basic content will not cause problems, but I think that is appropriate. We wouldn't want foul or degrading language, or immodest dress, distracting from the overall message being presented.

I hope this helps. It has helped me, just putting my thoughts down in words.

Susan

[DLGardner]

Ohhhh this strikes a chord with me!

I stuggled with that same passage personally long ago when I first accepted Christ's Lordship. With the influence of the church I believed for a time that making art was sacrilege and idol worship. As I matured I realized that such thinking was in exact opposition to what God's intent is. God indeed has given us the gift of recreating. We are made in His image and He creates. We are most blessed to be able to do what we, as artists do- of course, that is if we use our talents to glorify Him in some way even if it is to speak of the beauty around us (i.e. landscapes etc). Furthermore the first folks in the Bible who were anointed by the Holy Spirit for specific works were the artisans that built the Temple and decorated its interior.

In those days when there were wars, the musicians proceeded the armies. Another special way that God used his artisans.

I really believe that because artists are visionaries they (and often their works) are completely misunderstood by the general public church. I also believe that because artists see what others cannot, and record what they see or feel or percieve, they in a sense have the ability to speak through their art prophetically. I have seen this many times in music, dance and the visual arts.

Seven years ago I founded an organization called The Christian Cultural Arts Center. We put on several annual events at a large facility in our area. There were visual artists selling their work, musicians, dancers, mimes, actors, all performing the entire day. Everything we did was worship it was so beautiful. No one was paid for any of it. It was incredible the participation we had from all over the state. Unfortunately no one came. I mean we had like zilch for audiences and this was for three years in a row. We were well advertised. Why didn't folks come? The churches did not support it. In fact, folks were cautioned against coming because we were not functioning 'under a church covering'. Now I don't want to start debating that issue with anyone here. But I do want to say that I know we were blessed for doing what we did. We no longer put events on. Our organization now feeds the homeless on Sunday mornings and that is the all of it anymore.

One other thing that we did was hold a conference on arts and worship-to educate the church. Two well known artists from Texas came to speak. One was a dance choreographer for Ballet Magnificat (and founder of Dance ad deum) http://www.danceaddeum.com/sdi/photos.html

http://www.itickets.com/jump/index.html?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.danceaddeum.com

and a professional singer. It was a mountain top experience for those of us who attended...those five of us who attended I should say.

I was blessed to have gone to Texas the year after that and particpate in ArtReach- a three day conference of Christian artists (mostly dancers)from all over the world. I tell you...that was the most fulfilling worship I had ever expereinced.

My conclusion. The church isn't ready for the arts.
I love Francis Schaffer by the way. His book How Then Shall We Live touched on the arts as well. Good stuff!

Thanks for letting me vent!
Dianne

[LarrySeiler]

I highly recommend becoming familiar with this artist/musician author, John Fischer

http://www.fischtank.com/

...and have lauded and suggested his book, "Fearless Faith- Living Beyond the Safe Walls of Christianity" to any and every artist of faith to read, to contemplate upon...muse, pray and let God move you. This remembrance of my strong feelings for the connection I made with this book comes of your comment and questions.

Fischer gives the convenience of a link to his first chapter of this book that can be read online.

Larry

[DLGardner]

I'm reading that chapter now Larry. Excellent book!

Think I'll order one!

Dianne

[SMClement]

How do I implement change or just plant a seed in educating the understanding of people's concept of artwork and the church?
This morning I was musing about this question again. I remembered that a small group of my Christian friends had gathered on a semi-regular basis to work through a Bible study centered on creativity. This was a very encouraging time. It is also an example of a "seed planting" operation that can gradually change other believers' understanding about the arts. Gather together people who are willing to listen and learn and see what comes of it. The group had to disband because of scheduling problems, but I would like to revive the discussion group at some point in the future.

I am also blessed at my church that our lead pastor is a great fan of Francis Schaeffer. That is probably one reason we have more openness in our congregation to using all forms of artistic expression.

I really believe that because artists are visionaries they (and often their works) are completely misunderstood by the general public church.
The church is full of people who just don't get art. It's not just that they are suspicious of somehow being pulled into something evil that might run counter to a passage of scripture, but they also just don't have a refined aesthetic taste that allows them to see any value in the fine arts. But then again, the world outside the church is full of the same aesthetically challenged people.

Seven years ago I founded an organization called The Christian Cultural Arts Center. We put on several annual events at a large facility in our area. There were visual artists selling their work, musicians, dancers, mimes, actors, all performing the entire day. Everything we did was worship it was so beautiful. No one was paid for any of it. It was incredible the participation we had from all over the state. Unfortunately no one came. I mean we had like zilch for audiences and this was for three years in a row. We were well advertised. Why didn't folks come? The churches did not support it. In fact, folks were cautioned against coming because we were not functioning 'under a church covering'.
I am so sorry to hear that this happened. I have seen a local church offer a similar event - a venue for drama, live music, and displays of fine arts and crafts. It had enough participation that they sold tickets to it. It has been held for several years, now. The difference is likely that this church is open minded about the arts, whereas the churches in your area were not.

[kimeart]

Susan,

Thank you for the reminder, in order to understand verses it is important to look at the context. I appreciate your link to F. Schaeffer's site. I was unaware of his writings and I will research more.

I was hoping to start or join a group of visual artist at my church. Checking into it at the present moment, I think it is a great idea.
I have another artist group I belong to that has several non Christians. I pray I set an example of the teachings of God's word to open minds here.


Dianne,

Thank you for your insight. Becoming more knowledgeable about what others have done or are doing really helps. I will check out your links and do further research.
"Under church covering" I understand and can see this in some of the churches of today.

Larry,

Thank you for the link. I will do further research and read the online chapter. I appreciate your input.

People not understanding or the church not being ready is something of a difficult challenge. I will pray and read God's word to find answers.


Kim

[Lynn Quinn]

Great question! I've been trying to find time to put in my 2 cents (while trying to finish my submission for the tsunami project). Dianne, you've covered the points I would have made, only probably better! :clap:

I'm blessed to be part of a congregation that is open to the arts as an expression of worship. We are able to display paintings in the area where we meet for coffee after church (best wall space available), and I have sold paintings to other members. Presently we don't have anyone gifted/bold enough to use dance as an expression of worship, but I've been in churches where this was a fairly regular thing. We frequently have various forms of drama as part of our services. My pastor's theory is that if we have members gifted/willing to move into ministry areas, then we will. This not only applies to outreach, but ministry within the congregation (ie. leading small groups, children's ministries, etc.) including the arts.

I've been in church all my life (close to 53 years now :) ), and one of the things from my childhood that sticks out most in my mind is when we had a visiting artist who painted a landscape during the service while music was playing, I think. I was amazed. It was really fast, and very good! I don't remember details, just the sense it was done as an expression of praise to God for the beauty He's created. I don't think I could ever do that, as I'm pretty slow, and like to paint without the distraction of other people around!

I went to a Christian college in Kansas. One of our chapel services was a potter working on a wheel, while speaking to us about God as the potter shaping us for the purpose He has in mind for us. I know it made a great impression on me, re. the need to submit myself to the Potter's hands! It was a great teaching tool.

I do believe that the climate re. the arts is changing in many churches that are sensitive to the Holy Spirit. I believe He is restoring the concept that "worship" isn't just singing or music, but involves every area of our lives bringing praise and glory to our Lord.

I've only been showing my work for a few years, but there have been several times when viewers have asked questions re. the spiritual aspects of a painting, even "just a landscape". I ask the Lord to help me communicate His message through the painting, and I believe He does. I did a painting of a hollow tree stump on a snow-covered hill, with a sun pillar behind it. A lady asked me "Did you paint that with spirit?" I didn't know where she was coming from, so I ask what she meant. She just repeated the question. So I answered that I believed I had painted it with the inspiration and help of the Holy Spirit. She looked a bit shocked, said "Oh!" and walked away. But I was sort of surprised that people did recognise a spiritual component to it. We just never know how the Lord is going to make use of our creativity to touch people's lives.

Didn't mean to get this wordy!
God bless you all!
Lynn

[Felica Keech-Smith]

I've thought of bringing my story to the thread several times, but didn't want to sound like a whiner. And, I hoped to get things resolved before having to say anything. But, here's what has happened to me. (Hopefully, I can keep it brief.)

My husband and I found a great church after looking for almost 2 years that had very loving people with open arms and big hearts. Not long after we started there last summer it was mentioned that a new building project had been started to build our own building. (We currently rent most of a shopping center.)

I was so inspired by the vision of what they were wanting to do with the beautiful hillside property that I prayed about and started a series of paintings that depicted the "Journey to Highridge".

After discussing with the pastor if this would be of any use to the church body and getting a very resounding "Yes!", I painted 5 paintings that included 2 with the journey and the vision (Similar to matted plaque). One had the current building, one the hill as it is now, and one with the vision of the new building. I painted and cut my own mats and made my own frames to fit the design. It took longer than I thought, but was relieved and pleased enough when I finished them over 2 months ago.

Here's where the hard part started. I took them to church, nervous about how they'd be received, if at all, to be told by the pastor that he had given the task of what to do with them to the MUSIC pastor. This pastor had us stack them in the office conference room, which I didn't even know existed. To date, they are still where we put them. After much discouragement, and no one giving me answers as to what they would do with them I finally received word (from someone else, not the pastor) that they would be put up in that conference room. This room is only used by a maximum of 10 office people (out of a membership of about 500-700 people.)

I know that I was probably being silly to be hurt by this, but I just couldn't help it. I know that I created them because I felt the Lord wanted me to. But, I just don't understand why they were relegated to something not much more than a closet. I almost took them back home, but got myself back together and didn't.

I guess I shouldn't have done anything until I had been requested to do it, but I thought I was doing something to help all of the church. (And, this was all we had to give to this building fund while I'm out of work.) But, with His grace, I'll get past this and maybe someday I'll be able to help other visual artists get their work in churches where it's not viewed as "fluff".

(Sorry that this went so long.)

Felica

[DLGardner]

Felica I can understand your disappointment. Its probably not much comfort, but we have to remember that when we do anything, we should do it unto the Lord. He has seen your work in secret, and in secret he will reward it. If anything, he will build your character through this experience.

I took some paintings to church once at the pastors request and they sat on the floor in a conference room where people could bump into them and push chairs into them etc. They sat there for about two weeks. Finally I just took them home. I figured that just as God had given me the vision to paint those pictures so too he has given me stewertship over them to keep them safe.

Your paintings sound wonderful by the way. Do you have any images to post?

Dianne

[Felica Keech-Smith]

Felica I can understand your disappointment. Its probably not much comfort, but we have to remember that when we do anything, we should do it unto the Lord. He has seen your work in secret, and in secret he will reward it. If anything, he will build your character through this experience.

I took some paintings to church once at the pastors request and they sat on the floor in a conference room where people could bump into them and push chairs into them etc. They sat there for about two weeks. Finally I just took them home. I figured that just as God had given me the vision to paint those pictures so too he has given me stewertship over them to keep them safe.

Your paintings sound wonderful by the way. Do you have any images to post?

Dianne

I know Dianne, that's why I've felt a little bit guilty and silly for my feelings about what they've done with them.

It's interesting that you said that about your paintings because that's exactly where these have been ("...on the floor in a conference room where people could bump into them and push chairs into them etc.") for these 2 months. I've never thought about that stewardship, so I wonder if I should check and make sure they are still not all scratched up. But, I did have them all wrapped up in bubble wrap, so maybe they are ok.

As far as images of the paintings, I've just realized that I've never gotten a picture of the largest of the five (the concept of the builiding), but I've attached one of the other 4. For an idea of the size, the 2 middle ones are about 9 x 15 inches (inside the mat), and all painted in watercolor. (Sorry about the "fisheye" problem that my camera caused.)

Felica

[Ikneadaneraser]

Felica, As an associate pastor, I am SO sorry that your work was treated with such careless disregard.
I second the "stewardship" concept. I would slip in and remove the paintings. You could try to sell them privately, and donate the money to the building fund. Then again, you might consider speaking with the pastor. Honestly express your feelings. From what you write, I don't get a sense of pride, but of humble service to God and the church. I think a sensitive pastor would pick up on that.
I have recently begun a journey to take my own art seriously after a long neglect. I had grown to think of it as separate from my call as a minister. Thank God He put someone in my life who reproved me as 'neglecting a gift God gave' me!
As I work now, I honestly consider my art as an act of true worship! I meditate on God's gifting. I praise Him as I struggle through difficult portions.
I am very fortunate that our senior pastor is also a gifted professional musician/drama performer. We have several art-sensitive parishioners, too.
Blessing on you as you try to work through this.

[Felica Keech-Smith]

...
As I work now, I honestly consider my art as an act of true worship! I meditate on God's gifting. I praise Him as I struggle through difficult portions...

Exactly. Thank you so much for your kind words Jerry. You are a true encourager. I'd like to think that I could sell them, but I've had trouble finding buyers as it is for my work. I will continue to pray about whether I'm supposed to take them home or not. (Honestly, it hurt me so badly yesterday that if I had had them I might have done something REALLY dumb and shreaded them. :rolleyes: )

It IS interesting though when you come across those that are gifted in other areas (like music.. of which I am also), but those others have such a difficult time appreciating the giftings God gave others. My brother is a head pastor, music minister and all that too (he's in another state) and he even struggles seeing the need or importance of visual art.

Kim, please forgive me for hijacking your thread. I hope that you feel that my thoughts have been an addition and not a hinderance.

Felica

[kimeart]

Felica,

You're giving and sharing exactly the input that is needed to help clarify an important issue within today's church. More is needed and necessary if it is to change.
I was concerned that I was a lone voice in a church of thousands. The more input the better, everyone's input is welcome, even those that have a different voice.

I also have had a similar experience as you. I find it unacceptable.

My next question is how to have our voice be heard.
Pastors, so passionate about teaching Gods word and getting the message out, have lots of accepted methods in which this is accomplished. Do we take their sermons and drop them in a corner or prop them up against a wall and ignore because we are ignorant about the subject matter in which it is presented? Are they not called to be teachers? (How about us are we not called to be teachers?) Showing us the way? (Using art work as tools to show others the way?) At the moment I am praying about and reading about what it is that God needs me to accomplish with my work. I fear that by not addressing these issues in the church we are not accomplishing what we have been called to do.

Please keep contributing your thoughts. I'm thankful to have company in which to share.

Kim

[Felica Keech-Smith]

Thanks Kim, I really appreciate it.

And, you may really be on to something about us speaking up. I have a tendency to just shrink back in the background instead of standing up. Something we should really be praying about.

Felica

[Ikneadaneraser]

Continuing in this vein. Where would the Early Church have been if it weren't for 'visual aids': the ichthys!, mosaics, multiple frescoes and altarpieces, the Sistine Chapel!!!
Before the masses of people could read, the Church relied on artists to teach and remind them of the Biblical stories. The fact that some of that degenerated into idol worship does not negate the value it played in people's lives!
As was said, even in a fairly literate society as post-Exodus Israel, where Hebrew was taught in the home (The first wide-spread home-schooling society!), the Temple- and synagogues had their artwork as aids to worship.

I would just urge us to meditate on a phrase from "Cry, the Beloved Country":

"I have one great fear: that when they have turned to loving, they will find that we have turned to hating."

Let us speak with grace and respect, but speak we must!

Blessings!

[kimeart]

Jerry,

Wise advice, with respect, grace and perseverance.


Kim

[monzie]

hi kimeart,

I am a believing artist and have recently questioned the same things you mention.

One can read exodus and come away with the heebeegeebees unless one continues to read further. The context that the passage in Exodus refers to creating a graven image (the Hebrew word here means, i believe, to "hew out") to worship, or a false god. It is made clear as to the severity involved in doing so. (Read on in Deuteronomy 28 through 30 for the list of curses).

However, one can continue to read in Exodus where God Himself annointed Bezaleel (the first time in scripture, I believe) to create things for the temple of God himself. These things included two 15 foot tall angels, the ox and bull that held the washing bowl, the tapestry with angels ascending and descending from heaven, and the ark itself that God sat upon!

Apparently, God enjoys the visual arts and it was important for Him to decorate his house with them enough to set apart a man and other men to create them...

One can venerate any image or thing or person and make a idol out of it...it is our decision who we worship...

thanks for creating the nice work!
Dan
Waco,Tx

[Felica Keech-Smith]

Hey Dan, thoughtful words indeed. Welcome to WC! I lived in Waco just a few years ago. (Graduated from TSTC in 2000.)

Felica

[SMClement]

In reference to the Exodus passage, I found an interesting tid-bit in an art history text. The Egyptians apparently had an almost inseperable association between a statue made of stone and the actual god it represented. They "vivified" each statue after it's completion, going through a ceremony to bring it to "life" and etching a name or other information on the form.

And where had the Israelites just come from? Egypt. I would imagine all of them grew up in the Egyptian context, and probably were strongly affected by the Egyptian culture. This command to never make idols in the form of graven images was probably very necessary for the Israelites to separate The Sovereign Lord from all of the false gods.

The art history text is by Paul Johnson, and the tid-bit is in the chapter on Egyptian art. I can give a page number and actual quote, if anyone is interested.

[kimeart]

Dan,

I appreciate your insight on my ramblings.
These passages tell us how important God's gifts are in making works for His purpose. Great examples and you're right about making idols and who we worship, it is a choice.


SMClement
Thank you for information on the Art History and any extra you would like to post would be greatly appreciated. The more informed one can be in speaking to others on this topic the more aware all become in fulfilling ones purpose.

Kim

[LarrySeiler]

I read an interesting book a number of years ago, now tucked away on one of my shelves called, "The Two Babylons"...and it follows the history of an idol that was worshipped and adapted by many cultures.

It originates from all that the author shows from archaelogical evidences to when Nimrod, the builder of cities...and founder of Babylon took his own mother Semiramis to be his wife. Nimrod, as it would be was the builder of many occult cities...and according to history was slain by a prophet of God as an abomination with parts of his slain body sent to the various pagan cities as a warning.

Semiramis thereafter declared her son Nimrod a god...and statues were created of a mother with a child upon her lap. Egypt adapted the idol as Isis and Osiris, Rome as Jupiter and Cybel, China their version...on and on.

Supposedly a mandate thru Constantine and the emperor that followed of Rome ruled that all Roman citizens were to attend church, and to accomodate and make welcome the pagans various past practices and idols were given new names (and you can see thus where this one is going).

Supposedly, even the celebration of Easter was once called Ishtar...and Christmas incorporated a yule log which was burned to commemorate the killing of Nimrod and the placing of a tree in the home the day following was to suggest the rebirthing of Nimrod.

All quite interesting to say the least...but difficult for us as lay people to filter thru what one historical treatise over another in the end leads to as for truth as it actually happened.

As how idols exist today and in what form...it is that which simply exists to detract us from attention and worship deserving of belonging to God alone. IN that sense, our youth pastor or church could be an idol, certainly the emphasis given to our own art making if not held in proper balance, time spent shopping or fishing. Life, like our art work...requires keeping a focus on the whole and not the parts, and finding a balance.

All interesting stuff to chew upon and consider.

Larry

[monzie]

Greetings believing artists...

Does anyone else out there consider it a problem to create images of the Godhead in light of Romans 1:23?

I have made a couple of scluptures of Jesus and wonder if I did the right thing...any thoughts?

Dan

[LarrySeiler]

Jesus, Dan...was truly man as well as incarnate of God, and many descriptions come to mind when we read of him and think of him. Such images exist in our hearts and minds before they ever materialize as works of art...and remember too that what a man thinks in his heart so is he.

Adultery did not have to happen formally, but only had to be committed as thought in one's mind/heart and it was called sin, right? So...have we not all then been guilty of creating an image simply by reflecting upon Christ and the Word if indeed having such an image was wrong?

Here is one I myself have done of Christ, based on a movie about Jesus some years back...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Jan-2005/532-jesus.jpg

Here is a thought about "graven" images that came as a result of some deep contemplation over all this a few years back.

A graven image is a distorted one, made up by man which takes the place of the true God.

Think of how many believers attend church week after week, hearing testimonies, special messages by people brought in...supposed experts, and so forth. How many hear what one man of God says, then hear another and over the years develop ideas about who God is and so forth based on the accumulation of all that stuff said, suggested, and taught. Perhaps not faithfully checking that which he hears with the word to filter out that which is contrary.

In lieu of what I'm about to say...that we need to read the word underscores the need for caution that leads to discerning the truth...but, if our minds are like a slate or chalkboard, and if everyone that speaks ideas of what it is to walk with God, what God is like and so forth, is not an image slowly created on the chalkboard of our minds?

Do we not thereby respond in like kind to our perceptions of God based on the image that comes about on that slate?

It is possible that not all ideas about God, about walking with Him or what He is like that find their way to the slateboard of our minds is correct. Thus, if we are walking, praying to, seeking the image of our understanding...and if it were a false or not entirely truthful understanding, that too would be a false image or graven would it not?

yet...we are human, no?

If we are guilty of adultery simply as a result of thinking of another woman wrongly...then could we not be guilty of worshipping a false God having a false perception etched on the chalkboard of our mind?

Thing is though...there is grace. What this points out is how much we need grace. Even in seeking to discern truth in reading the word, we are dependent upon the grace of God to open our eyes and our understanding.

There are some Christians that adamantly believe it is sinful to have a beer or enter a tavern, insisting that Christ turned water to grapejuice at the wedding. There are those that believe the water was turned to wine.

Its not the point of our forum to debate such things, but I bring up the point that there will be differences of opinion, yet...there is that scripture that says, "to him that knows to do good and does it not is sin" and then, "let the peace of God rule in your heart"

Perhaps God allows one to believe one thing about alcohol to keep them from returning to a destructive lifestyle of alcoholism, and to another allows to believe something else to enjoy liberty.

I can tell you I have no problem painting Christ, or my idea of Him...but it is you that needs to pray, to discern, to seek God, and to test your heart to see if there is restlessness or peace. If you have a peace about it...then let that rule in your heart. Its simple.

If Michelangelo had a peace to paint the act of creation on the Sistine Chapel ceiling where God touches the finger of Adam and breathes the breath of life...and further feels he has not dishonored God painting many of the figures nude...that was his peace and who would I be to judge? Some things will have to be left to God...some things are left to our own understanding, and many things are not for us to convince others of. Where it is written is one thing....but there too is balance.

Larry

[DLGardner]

My agreement with Larry,
If we are guilty of adultery simply as a result of thinking of another woman wrongly...then could we not be guilty of worshipping a false God having a false perception etched on the chalkboard of our mind? Thing is though-there is grace.
That's the sum of it all, and
"to him that knows to do good and does it not is sin" and then, "let the peace of God rule in your heart"

Idolatry is also considered spiritual adultry. Unfaithfulness to God.
I often visualize God looking at his people from above, through the tops of their houses sitting on their comfortable couches, eyes glued to their t.v. sets.

or their computers.

I think if He saw you in your studio creating a sculpture while contemplating on Him, he wouldn't be so hard on you.

Its really a heart issue. Are you painting a picture of Jesus because you love Him?

Just another thought.
Dianne

[monzie]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate your thoughts on the matter. I really did'nt think much about it until I conversed with a man whose opinion was; "that we should not know Jesus after the flesh" and also, when Jesus said; "this do in remembrance of me" (as in, the communion-taking).

The sculpture I did of Jesus was just to be a blessing...the second one was a commission that I completed, of Jesus carrying the cross.

I will try to upload the photos, so you guys can see the finshed work.

Ultimately, I believe you are right about letting "peace be your umpire"...as it says in Romans.

Thanks much for your thoughtful consideration!
Dan
Brook

[LarrySeiler]

Dan....very lovely work, done with excellence, craftsmanship...! Done in such a way is honoring as well....!

:clap:

Larry

[monzie]

Larry...thanks for your kind and encouraging words! They are for sale... :D
Look forward to talking to you soon.... :wave:

[SMClement]

The more informed one can be in speaking to others on this topic the more aware all become in fulfilling ones purpose.
Kim, here is the information I promised:

Excerpts from "Art: A New History" by Paul Johnson, (c) 2003, from HarperCollins Publishers

Pg 24
"The completion of a statue was marked by the carving of its name in hieroglyphics: at that point it was ready for the 'Opening of the Mouth'. Once the statue's mouth was 'opened', it ceased to belong to the sculptor - it was on its own."

"The ceremony of life gave life to a statue but it was the carving of the hieroglyphic name - not the carving of the features - which conferred identity on it."

Pg. 28
"Among primitive people - and for this purpose we must include the Egyptians - there is little or no distinction between a created image and the reality. Indeed, as we have seen, it was the very essence of the Egyptian cult that the image was the god."

I don't know how Mr. Johnson stacks up against other authorities in art history. This information just happened to catch my eye as I was reading.

I do definitely agree with Larry and Diane that our heart motivation is the real measure of what glorifies God. That, and trusting in His grace and mercy, because our hearts will never be pure before Him on any endeavor.

Hope this helps...

Susan

[monzie]

Yes, it does! Thanks to all very much!
Dan

[Ikneadaneraser]

Hey, folks! I hope I can jump back in after a long absence?
I'll forgo explaining why I haven't been around, and get straight to my present thinking.

1st: Dan! Those are some powerful sculptures! As Larry said, honoring.

Oddly, that brings me to my thoughts on this topic. I mentioned awhile ago that, since I made a new commitment to art, it has become an act of worship. So, I thought I would explore the 'creative' side of what art means. I came to believe that, just as God created us in His image, the urge to create is a part of that image. If I/we keep that perspective, I believe we are simply 'living out' the image of God in our lives.
The problem comes, as it always does, when we forget Him- forget to include Him in our everyday lives- and start to think "I can do this myself". It was the problem for Adam and Eve- " I can be like God. I can eat this!" On to the Tower of Babel- "We can build a tower to heaven." So for Abraham and Sarah- "Lie with Hagar." It was the temptation of Jesus- "You don't have to go to the cross; worship me."
How do we as artistic Christians (NOT Christians who are artists) explain this 'inner spark' to the Church (invisible, universal) around us? How can we help them understand that, for us (me at least) to be true to the image of God in me, I MUST make art (create)?

I don't know if I have the answers. I don't know if some, or even any people in the Church (or even here) can understand. I only know the joy I have found in re-discovering art can only be compared to the joy I found when I was born again and that I derive from my family.

Please? Can anyone identify? "Can I get a witness?" :wink2:

[Cyndi L]

Hi Jerry,
For me to refuse to do the task that God has clearly placed before me would be about the most God-dishonoring thing I could do. To see the path that He's lovingly prepared, and to deliberately step right off of it? Not me!

I agree with your assessment :)

[kimeart]

Just a quick hello, I do apologize for being in a rush.
Twelve credits at school and studio and family – I absolutely love how God is teaching me by literally teaching me. God answers prayers. I am humbled.

Wow what beautiful artistry has been posted. Interesting comments and questions that have been posted, I will respond when I finish my assignments required for this week.

Kim

[SMClement]

How do we as artistic Christians (NOT Christians who are artists) explain this 'inner spark' to the Church (invisible, universal) around us? How can we help them understand that, for us (me at least) to be true to the image of God in me, I MUST make art (create)?

I don't know if I have the answers. I don't know if some, or even any people in the Church (or even here) can understand. I only know the joy I have found in re-discovering art can only be compared to the joy I found when I was born again and that I derive from my family.

Please? Can anyone identify? "Can I get a witness?" :wink2:
Jerry, I'd like to "give a witness", but it will sound very impersonal. I'm very analytical by nature, so please bear with me here.

How can the average non-artistic (or, more accurately, those who don't recognize they have any artistic ability) Christian justify why they felt drawn to accounting, or teaching, or any career?

Living out God's will is 1) fulfilling His commandments that are clearly stated in the Scriptures, 2) utilizing special spiritual gifts such as teaching, prophecy, giving to benefit God's kingdom, AND 3) investing in and using special gifts and talents given as a trust (Parable of the Talents, Mt 25:14-30)

Using Artistic abilities are definitely part of #3, and very likely #2 gets pulled in, too. Teaching, offering prophetic (and perhaps convicting) messages, delivering truth to a spiritually dry audience - all done through a visual presentation.

Why does the church have such issues with artistic types? Living in obedience to God brings joy and peace, no matter what personality type.

Susan

[monzie]

Great comments, guys! Thanks fo your support and thoughts. I too feel that it is what I am to do...the frustrating part is trying to make a living at it. I feel that I am getting close to breaking through on this one though...

The world at large does'nt seem to have much tolerance for the artist...so I suppose the church at large is just a cross section of same.

On a positive note, I do see the Holy Spirit speaking to the church at large and bringing the arts back to the church. This is very encouraging and uplifting. You guys would probably enjoy looking at the website for Hope Chapel in Austin, Texas. They are way off into the arts as a minsitry to the church and to artists...

Seeya!
Dan

[LarrySeiler]

On a positive note, I do see the Holy Spirit speaking to the church at large and bringing the arts back to the church. This is very encouraging and uplifting
Dan

That can be a mixed blessing which has to be anticipated, guarded, and spoken into when necessary.

I am associated with ACT (Artists in Christian Testimony) out of Franklyn/Nashville, Tennessee...and the major vision is to utilize the arts in worship, the church, honoring God...seeing the body develop its gifts and so forth.

WE need to remember though that we have a past of enculturation in a Darwinian mindset...that old survival of the fittest thing, where one's value is in what one contributes to the group. It is utilitarian and pragmatic...and the value of what an artist wishes to contribute to the church often has to be sold with ideas of how it will enhance a thing already existing. Not bad, right? Thing is...what is existing may be rooted in that pragmatic, utilitarian (what is useful) thing that is born more of the world's spirit than the heart of God.

True, our love is community and to our brethren...but the worth of the act is often judged by what the community (or leaders) expect to get out of it, and will treat/reward members accordingly.

This can send confusing messages to creative people.

For myself...I was a youth pastor over a spanse of 20 some years, serving several different churches one after the other. Also a university campus pastor for a couple years. Aside from my ministry vocation, was my artist advocation. The artist side musically and visually was who I had always steadily been. I was even a frontman in a popular Christian hard rock band in the big hair 80's era. My son Jason, has followed in my steps himself in a band a half-dozen years ago that was nominated for a Dove award at the Grammy's, and is himself now a star student at Chicago's American Art Academy. A great artist in his own right.

My involvement with mininstry was to obey as God led, to serve but always I was working my art out. I have always found the church eager to borrow from my talents, and make "use" of them. That translates to being accepted for the what I was more than who that I was, and becareful there!

Over those years...I had won Wisconsin's Wildlife Artist of the Year, been a finalist or runner up for state conservation stamp design programs 23 of 33 times entered, won our state's Inland Trout Stamp competition, and for the past three years been honored as the Ruffed Grouse Society's chapter artist of the year in NE Wisconsin. That...and my painting plein air landscapes for five galleries.

In all my years of ministry...I could probably count fingers of both hands how many times anyone in the church took any particular interest to bother to visit my home studio and see what I was about as an artist. That can leave one to feel fairly insignificant as to how one's work fits into God's economy and kingdom when by comparison the world repeatedly has shown up at the doorstep. I have had television reporters, newspaper staff, photographers. I've sat at tables near to the governor at state invitation only dinners. I have received many honors from the one, but little to any passing interest of the church.

ON the other hand...if there were a set design for a play, a banner needed well...then you might find opportunity to lend a hand. For the artist seeking legitimacy and bonding/fellowship, this askewed means of divying out acknowlegment could send the wrong message about where your focus as an artist should be.

If you are not sound and secure in who you are with the Lord, where your place should be, that mission field or sphere of influence that is your target audience...you could very well be misrouted, re-directed or taken off your course.

Note, I am not saying do not participate on a worship team playing guitar, or helping with a set design, but when the good feelings arise within for kudos in helping meet the current cause at hand...for a program that met the interests of others in church, realize your self-esteem in wanting to be even more accepted can quickly abandon what God might be having you to do in efforts to gain greater acceptance still.

The artist's road can be a very very lonely hard fought path. Many doubts.

In the end...I am learning that God seeks friends. Many clamored to Christ when it was the popular thing to do, many the same that later yelled out "Crucify!" when it was unpopular to stand for him any longer.

It will take nearly your whole life to discover your right path, recognize obstacles, find peace in God's presence, and see clamor and noise as a substitute for real fruit of the Spirit.

Ironically...from the pulpit we will often hear how we MUST reach the world, how the faithful must do this and that, but when among their very midst is one that is already finding the world at their doorstep, do you think they will inquire as to why or readily support that which is working? Don't bet on it.

You will have to learn to be content winning your own private battles with God's help, finding consolation among a few understanding friends (who also may very well be creatives themselves), and enjoy victories in the Lord's presence without the common showboating and public accolades others in the church enjoy.

This...and at the same time learn the Lord's mandates to not be embittered, but kind, loving, encouraging and so forth. Artists are unseen warriors very often in the church.

A last bit of hard learned advice. Seek your acceptance, your meaning, your peace in God himself. Do not seek the accolade or kudos that follow after your talents in the church. Such is always given for the "what" that you have done, not the "who" that you have become. If you are not solid in your worth deriving from the Lord, you can easily find yourself in the trap of living and seeking to please men.

Larry

[monzie]

Thanks Larry
I guess what I was trying to communicate being most excited about is what the Holy Spirit is doing with the artist(s) him/herself! Christian art has changed a great deal in the last 20 or so years. To me, when I speak of the church I am not addressing a particular church so much as the body of Christ at large...I see Him bringing the arts back to the body/church as an expression of HImself, if that makes sense.
I myself am fairly wary of getting caught in the kind of traps you refer to, but am very glad to see that there are churches that support artists in the way the church mentioned previously does.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts and apparently hard won opinions.
Seeya!
Dan

[LarrySeiler]

Hey Dan....your words came across as an opportunity to share what might be an opportunity to give others to reflect, not as something I felt a need to correct.

I saw the lead in...and took it. These are things many believers simply do not have experience of, and for this reason why so many get caught up in it.

The church leadership will have special speakers come in to share knowing ahead of time what and where the speaker intends to take it, how often though would they receive one that might come in and warn members about the greater dynamics of group pressures, pragmatism in the church, the spirit of Darwinism and power of enculturation, and so forth? That would equate to a cleansing, and worse...those that are at the fringe of problems in their own families and marriage because of proving themselves faithful being at church constantly serving might suddenly see the light, and that might affect programs.

There are unfortunately very few artists with hindsight of many years, having been involved in ministry that can offer such things to consider. There are a few...Franky Schaeffer, John Fischer...

again...as I premised before my rant, as a member of ACT, we certainly do need and encourage the arts to be at the forefront of worship, of praise, as means of expression...so certainly nothing wrong with what you stated. In fact, if I was called to meet with a group, a team of artists, musicians or creatives in a church to help that church see the arts expressed and grow, I would as part of my ministry prepare these people to know what spiritual traps can come upon them. After all...the Lord is jealous for His people, and His disciplines to correct and straighten them out later as a result of possibly not having known in advance could spoil their arts ministry. It is not out of a cynical spirit this is birthed in for me, but more that fathering looking out for one's children thing.

Where it comes to areas of our talent, the enemy of our souls knows how to play with our pride and insecurities. He often takes a great thing and uses it against us. My word was only a caution for those that will read it, to understand the forces they will experience so they can guard against it.

I never hesitate to play/perform (music) for a church, to take opportunity to be in the pulpit to share, or even speak to a church group as a visiting artist. When the applause comes, the sense of gratitude is spoken, the offer to return...I am careful to recognize where deep inside one can enjoy the attention more than they should, as that is when a seed of a different kind can find root and later find myself caught in its consequences. Honor and praise to the Lord.

Yes...do mighty exploits. Use the gifts God has given us, and there is great opportunity to express greatly the arts in the church. Rightly so...amen!

You gave a good word Dan...my apologies if you saw it as a correction personally from me. Not at all. I often write for the unspoken lurkers of every forum.

Larry

[Violinagin]

I was just reading the thread, and it really struck me, and I thought I'd add my two cents in.

I've read two good books by the same author: Walking on Water, Reflections on Faith and Art; and Penguins and Golden Calves, both by Mrs. L'Engle. One thing she says, that I think really goes well here is that there is a difference between an icon and an idol. An icon helps us see through it to the glory of God, while an idol takes the place of a God. She also brings up those scriptures you gave in one of the books. (Which made me think of them in the first place).

That was in the Penguin book, and I recomend that everyone read it. And if I could I would make everyone read Walking on Water. *laughs* It's such a good book, and it's so easy to read. :wave:

[Ikneadaneraser]

Jumping back in here!
I've been contemplating this issue quietly- always a smart thing on my part.
I'm considering how to apply my art to the community of believers- and on the fringes. As a means to encourae those who feel 'forgotten' or misunderstood' precisely because of the issue we've raised here: utilitarian/pragmatic preconceptions by others (and ourselves), and the whole idol vs. icon battle. I haven't got it all worked out, but I'm getting there.
Blessings!

[wheelcolor]

Hello there,

I want to share with you a website that I discovered. It is www.civa.org
and it is Christians in the Visual Arts.

It has been a blessing to me, so I wanted to share it with you and others as well.

-Stacy www.bottomstudio.com

[LarrySeiler]

violinagin-...yep, good thoughts on what separates icons from idols...thanks,

Yep..Ikneadaneraser....we all work thru these things, endlessly! More power and grace!

thanks Stacy...familiar with CIVA...thanks, a good organization.

I am an associate missionary myself with ACT, "Artists in Christian Testimony", another good organization...
http://www.actinternational.org/


Larry

[momof6]

I often visualize God looking at his people from above, through the tops of their houses sitting on their comfortable couches, eyes glued to their t.v. sets.

or their computers.

Dianne

Oh, that made me laugh!

I've got to visit this forum more often! It truly is inspirational!

I have a couple points to offer for thought. The creating of images and use of images (2D, 3D, music, dance etc) is not what God forbids. These works of art are meant to point us to God, assist in our prayer and contemplation, and they are a means to use the gifts God has given us to the betterment of mankind (ie inspire others to move toward God).

The idolatry is the confusion of worshipping the item itself and giving it some sort of godly status - basically blocking God out.

I am a member of a very active Catholic parish that is very welcoming of a variety of arts that point toward God. In fact, there simply is no more room to tastefully and faithfully display them. We even had a lovely modern dance right up the centre aisle to the altar one year.

I personally have donated art for our new building fund auctions - I think it is a wonderful way to use God's gifts to contribute to the building of his kingdom on earth. This, of course, would extend to any of our art donations to worthy causes (I'm thinking of the tsunami project but there are countless other opportunities, aren't there?).