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craigd
10-26-2004, 01:32 PM
Hi all

Been lurking for a while now and have picked up so much info from these forums alone! I'm a digital artist looking to go back to traditional media; acrylics to be exact. I was wondering which are the most important colours to get. I've searched the forums but only found one thread that was relevant. It was getting people to mix their own colours using CMY but I don't really want to be this adventurous just yet since I read that it's quite hard to get rich reds-oranges from it. I've made my mind up to go with the W&N Finity range of acrylics so have around 30-40 to spend on them but of course I don't want to get the wrong ones (doesn't mean I want to spend all that amount on them of course). I don't mind mixing colours but I'd rather have a more full range before mixing (to save a lot of time). I was thinking of getting the CMY ones mentioned in that thread and adding others to get those rich warm colours. Good idea? or am I better with a different palette altogether? And is there a huge difference in the tubed versions and the tubs?

Also, I've seen some dirt cheap acrylics (http://www.dcmk.co.uk). Any ideas on those? Anyone use or used these? Are they artist quality or student quality? I'd try them but I don't have the money to experiment for them to turn out to be awful. That's money I could've spent on some Finity ones or an extra canvas or 2 :]

One last thing.. what brushes should I get? sizes etc..

I'm looking to be selling my works in the very near future so it's best for me to get everything I need now.

Thanks in advance!
Craig.

jbitzel
10-26-2004, 02:04 PM
Welcome to the Acrylics forum. :wave: My sugestion is to get a basic set like a black, blue, red, yelow, and plenty of white. I also like to add a few common colors depending on your subject, if you do landscapes you might like a green and a burnt sienna, for animals you might add a raw sienna. Hope this helps. :clap: :wave: oh, and brushes, I personally like bristle brushes like hog brushes, but you need brushes that dont leave stroke marks too like taklon. One thing I notice is that brush sets dont give you very many little brushes like 2 and under. And as opposed to watercolor I think flats work better than rounds, and I like to use my little spotter too 18/0. :D James

MsLilypond
10-26-2004, 02:21 PM
I use a split primary system which is basically what you are talking about,
I use a cool yellow (cadium lemon or azo yellow), red(quinacridone red or permanent alizarin crimson), blue (cerulean blue) & warms - cadium yellow med., cadium red & ultramarine blue. In addition to the above I use pthalo blue, burnt sienna, & raw sienna, & titanium white. With these I can create a wide wide range of mixtures.

I also have three colors on my palette that get only get used once in a great while, black, raw umber & burnt umber.

The only difference in the tubes and the tubs, is the tubes are alot easier to carry around (since they are smaller).

For brushes, I prefer synthetic/natural blends. I find acrylics can be hard on brushes.

jonesbf
10-26-2004, 02:59 PM
I use W&N Finity myself. My palette is setup primarily for landscapes/wildlife, but I've found it to be very versitile: Cad. Red Light, Cad Orange, Cad Yellow Light, Hookers Green, Ultramarine Blue, Burnt Sienna, Dioxazine Purple. You can mix more lively blacks from the Sienna, Blue and Purple than you'll get premixed.

I use W&N Winton Hog Hair Flat brushes. These things stand up to all sorts of abuse even dabbing and scrubbing, but like any brush wash them out good with soap and water when you are done.

lensman
10-26-2004, 03:32 PM
I too have a strong digital background and switched back to 'real' mediums about a year ago...

You got some good advice about colours but might I also suggest you pick up some retarder and either a gloss or matt (I prefer gloss) glazing medium. I find acrylics dry too quickly for my tastes and I also like to do thick juicy paintings (especially witha knife) and to use paint alone would cost me a fortune.

Oh, and a colour wheel if you aren't too knowledgable about what paints to mix to get certain colours.

And... well, the list could go on and on as you will soon find out!

Glenn

jonesbf
10-26-2004, 03:36 PM
I have used retarders, but for the most part find them unnecessary. It really depends on the type of blending that you want to do. If you want to work wet on wet, yes, you really need a retarder. If you want to work wet on dry for dry brush blending, you can get away w/o a retarder.

craigd
10-27-2004, 08:56 AM
Wow you lot are fast!

Thanks for the replies, they've helped me a lot. I had a long list of colours that I mixed and matched from various sites and this has helped me narrow them down to just a few. I feel it's still gonna be a while before I decide exactly which colours to get. Were any of you as indecisive as me when you first started out? This has been around a week now.. a whole week! I think it's because I seen a couple of threads mention that pthalo series are horrible to mix with so I'm a little wary. Is this true? Do you have to be careful not to get cadmium red, pthalo blue and permanent rose (just an example)? Do certain pigments give undesired results when mixed together? Or can I just go and get anything that resembles cyan, yellow and magenta? Would I be much better off just buying 237ml tubs of these 3 primaries?

As for brushes.. what do the sizes represent? I know size 0 is smallest but how small? I mean what's the difference between a 2 and a 4? Should I just buy smallest, medium and largest? Then there's the different tips which I understand but would I have to buy 3 of each? Then there's the bloody bristle type... argh it never ends eh!

Retarder.. I used this with my acrylics around 10 years ago (was probably more like 13 years ago). I can remember how quick acrylics dried out and the retarder helped a LOT. So that's a definite on my list :]

Ugh.. I feel like a kid who won't stop asking questions (are we there yet? are we there yet?...)

Ok I'll stop then... for now!

Again, thanks to all who replied.
Craig.

jbitzel
10-27-2004, 09:36 AM
Were any of you as indecisive as me when you first started out? Craig.

Definately, I took 7 years off after high school and just started bach 3 months ago. I used to be a photographer so color theory caught on quick, but I remember thinking, how do I blend? what do I need? I am still indecisive I dont know what products to try and what not to. :wave: James

craigd
10-27-2004, 10:34 AM
Glad I'm not the only one then! It's a pain 'cause I just wanna get them and start having fun! After I've ordered them and waiting for them to be delivered I'll be thinking "have I ordered the right ones?? did I forget something??" so it never ends!

Just going through all the colours on the W&N Finity colour chart. I think this is making me worse since I'm loving all these other colours but can't afford them :p

edit: oops didn't notice that there was a Finity paints set on the store where I'll be getting them from. This set includes: azo yellow medium, phthalo green blue shade, permanent alizarin crimson, titanium white, ultramarine blue, yellow ochre

I'd be saving a few with that set... these colours ok though? most are ones I was thinking of but not the yellow ochre and phthalo green... so I'd only be saving money if those 2 additional colours are need or are useful. I'm getting closer to ordering :P

craigd
10-27-2004, 10:43 AM
candienjames: The hog winton brushes you mentioned are oil brushes right?

Einion
10-28-2004, 03:37 AM
Hi Craig, first off I have no idea about those acrylics you posted the link to but they look like craft-quality acrylics from the packaging - very much like WH Smith's own-brand acrylics, Liquitex Basics and the new cheapie Reeves acrylics in fact. Since there are no colours like the cadmiums or Cobalt Blue I doubt they're as good as they say they are, even if I were not sceptical based purely on their price. Once you become familiar with acrylics if you wanted to use them in bulk they're worth a try certainly given they're so cheap but I would expect to have to use them thickly to get any coverage.

I was wondering which are the most important colours to get.
There are lots of ways of answering this but for me it comes down to versatility. Unfortunately if you're paying full retail you're not going to get much for your 40 I'm afraid! But this link might help there: http://www.artdiscount.co.uk/acatalog/Finity_Artist_s_Acrylic_Colour___Series_3.html

This is what I would suggest as a good starting palette both for colour and for a range of opacities:
Lemon Yellow
Cadmium Yellow Medium
Cadmium Red Light
Permanent Rose
Ultramarine Blue
Phthalo Blue Green Shade
Titanium White
Mars Black
I think you'll find some earths useful and the three most versatile IMO are Mars Yellow, Burnt Umber and Red Iron Oxide.

...getting people to mix their own colours using CMY but I don't really want to be this adventurous just yet since I read that it's quite hard to get rich reds-oranges from it.
If you're familiar with process printing you'll know the quality of the reds, oranges, orange-reds and violets that can be achieved - not that great really - and this is with the very best CMY colours used in the best possible way (thin films on a white substrate). So I for one would not recommend it for general painting unless you know what you're getting yourself in for. If you do want to try these the three best colours are probably Transparent Yellow, Phthalo Blue Green Shade and Quinacridone Violet.

Were any of you as indecisive as me when you first started out?
Most people are when moving into a new medium. Coming from a digital background you have a lot of hurdles to overcome that a painter moving from another paint type to acrylics wouldn't have necessarily since they will already be familiar with certain pigments already and have an idea of how to physically apply paint etc. (although of course acrylics are very different to anything else).

This has been around a week now.. a whole week! I think it's because I seen a couple of threads mention that pthalo series are horrible to mix with so I'm a little wary. Is this true?
Phthalo blue and green are very strong in comparison to most other colours so they can overwhelm mixes very easily until you get used to them. I would advise getting a painting knife to do most of your mixing with, you'll probably want to thin your paint from the standard consistency anyway and using a knife is the best way of adding water and mixing it in thoroughly.

Do you have to be careful not to get cadmium red, pthalo blue and permanent rose (just an example)? Do certain pigments give undesired results when mixed together?
Not sure what you're asking here. There aren't any actual odd reactions between specific colours no, but until you get familiar with colour mixing (in actual paints, not the theoretical yellow + red = orange) and how your colours work together you'll often get results you won't expect.

Or can I just go and get anything that resembles cyan, yellow and magenta? Would I be much better off just buying 237ml tubs of these 3 primaries?
I wouldn't but if you know you'll be using a lot of them it will certainly be much better value.

As for brushes.. what do the sizes represent? I know size 0 is smallest but how small? I mean what's the difference between a 2 and a 4? Should I just buy smallest, medium and largest? Then there's the different tips which I understand but would I have to buy 3 of each? Then there's the bloody bristle type... argh it never ends eh!
Think of the questions someone might ask you if they wanted to learn Photoshop from the ground up and you'll get some idea of the amount of work ahead of you :)

This page will give you a good overview of brush types and sizes: http://www.dickblick.com/categories/brushes/ I would get a good selection of soft synthetics to begin with, Cotman for example; for stiffer synthetics (if you want brush texture) I think D-R's Cryla brushes are about the best option.

If you want some really good rounds for detail painting Kolinsky can't be beaten but you'll want to be sure because they're not cheap. If you live near London I can give you some recommendations on where to go to look for a couple of alternatives to W&N's Series 7.

Retarder.. I used this with my acrylics around 10 years ago (was probably more like 13 years ago). I can remember how quick acrylics dried out and the retarder helped a LOT. So that's a definite on my list :]!
I would try to work as much as possible within acrylics' own working character. If you're going to use retarder be careful about the amount you add, too much causes some problems; I would advise learning to use water as much as possible.

Einion

craigd
10-28-2004, 11:48 AM
Thanks a lot Einion. Lot of info there that really helped me make the final decision. I got the ones you recommended and a few others that were on my list (sap green, hookers green, dioxazine purple - well they were cheap!). Funnily enough, last night I was looking at a thread that quoted you describing all the colours (I believe it was "what's in your colour palette"). Was highly informative although it kind of confused me a little more because I wanted them all but knew I couldn't :p

Also, thanks for posting the link to the paints. I was only looking on that site the other day comparing it with discountart.co.uk who were quite a bit cheaper. But since artdiscount have the sale on (which I would've missed).. and well they worked out a LOT cheaper than discountart :D I almost ordered yesterday too.. so glad I waited an extra day!

Now I gotta wait for all my stuff to arrive. Always typical for me to order stuff so close to the weekend so then I have to wait till the following week before it arrives! I'm excited but nervous too. Wondering if it's a waste of money. I doubt it though. My main problem is going to be getting used to no "ctrl+z"!

Anyway thanks so much to all of you for taking the time to help me out. Sorry if I fired too many questions in such a short time. Just had to be sure I wasn't going to waste money.

Craig.

MsLilypond
10-28-2004, 02:08 PM
Acrylics may not have a ctrl-z but it has gesso, you can always sand down the area that needs work, apply gesso and repaint. That's what I love about acrylics, you can just paint over areas you don't like.

Einion
10-29-2004, 02:17 AM
Hi Craig, you're very welcome, glad to try to help. I'm very happy to hear you got to take advantage of that great offer, 50% off is not to be ignored! I picked up some remaindered 60ml tubes of Cryla on sale in London in September that I really don't need but at the price there were offered I couldn't say no, and it has allowed me to try a number of colours I wouldn't normally buy so I'm doubly pleased.

Incidentally I was going to include Dioxazine Purple in my list too as it's a great violet to have, but it's not absolutely necessary so I didn't want to add to the cost needlessly. Incidentally this colour is very strong, like the phthalo blues and greens, so use it with caution.

My main problem is going to be getting used to no "ctrl+z"!
LOL, I know exactly what you mean!

Einion

Mike Finn
10-29-2004, 05:12 AM
Hi all

I was wondering which are the most important colours to get.
<snip>
One last thing.. what brushes should I get? sizes etc..

I'm looking to be selling my works in the very near future so it's best for me to get everything I need now.

Thanks in advance!
Craig.

Craig...

As you can see..... lots of good advice presented..... But let me tell you my experience :)

I started painting a little over six months ago.... I also came from a digital background.... (see my sig). I have over this time aquired so many tubes of paint and so many brushes I could start a shop :)

Of course with six months experience I am now an expert :evil:
I have settled on Hog bristle brushes, 2 flats 8 & 4, two Filberts 6 & 2 and a 1 round. My palette has settled into something I am comfortable with although it does NOT meet the accepted criteria. Utramarine blue, Cerulean Blue, Napthol Red, Quin Magenta, Hansa Yellow Light, Yellow oxide (Ochre) and Titanium White..... I learned to despise the pthalos and have banished them :) A month or so ago I reviewed my paintings so far and the thing that stood out was the un-naturalness (sp) of the colours. It was all down to the Pthalos.... OR my lack of knowledge in using them, so they are in the too hard basket for now.

Basically what I am saying is read and listen to EVERYTHING but then make a decision and go for it. You WILL make the WRONG choices but that's ok... In time you will figure out what's best for you.... and after that you will change again ...and again. :)

But definitely be strong and do your own thing..... Just because something is accepted as being right does not make it so.

Mike Finn

Donald_Smith
10-29-2004, 03:01 PM
Craig,

Brushes, well, there are more to choose from than tubes of colors and mfgs.

The larger the number the bigger the brush. I've only found one brand of cheap brushes that work like I like, Royal with the gel grips in the long handle, the short ones are good too, but I like the long handles. I wasted a lot of $$ on other cheap brushes, then finally spent the $$ on some good ones. I don't like the cheap Lowe-Cornell, or the cheap Windsor and Newton brushes. It's a personal preference, others may love them. As Larry S. has proved, it isn't what you use, but how you use it. Look up his post where he took twigs and made his own brushes by crushing the ends, and then painted a nice painting. So, you can paint with twigs if you need to, it is what you do with them that is important.

Round brushes are good for making straight thin lines and leaves.
I like flat brushes for making bushes and leaves, and tree trunks.
I use a hake brush 2" wide for blending my skies.
I have some small brushes for fine detail, and big brushes for big canvases.
The general rule is, use the largest brush you can for the job at hand. You don't really need a complete set of brushes from 00 to 20 in 1 or 2 # increments.

I use a #10, #6, #4 flat bristle, a #4 flat sable, #4 round sable, #8 round bristle, 2" hake, and a #4 Script liner or rigging brush. I like the Grumbacher series of brushes. The flat bristles are Gainsborough, and the sables are Reniour.

I have used some cheap brushes made by Royal that sell for $2.99 each here in the US. I keep them with my pochade box for when I'm out painting plein aire.

There are other style brushes, Deer foot, rake, fan, angled, bright (a short bristle flat brush) and I can't remember the name of the other one I"m thinking of, it is like a flat brush but rounded on the end instead of straight. Each brush has it's own purpose, but many of them will do the same thing if you learn how to use it that way.

While you're learning, you need to learn what you can do with each brush. There is scumbling, dry brushing, blending, feathering and many other techniques that will come in handy.

Keep your brushes wet until you can get them cleaned. EX: You use your #10 brush, you dip it in water first, then paint then you apply the paint to the canvas. Your done with it and pick up another brush. Acrylics dry FAST! before you set your brush down you must wipe all the excess paint out, then rinse it in water. My tub of water has 3 compartments. I clean it in the dirty water first, then the second rinse then the last rinse. Then I lay it aside still wet, flat, not on it's tip. If I'm painting for several hours, and I haven't used a brush in a while, I'll redip the brush in water so it doesn't dry. When I"m through painting, I gather up all the brushes I've used, go to a sink, squirt liquid soap in my hand and wash all the bristles. I will rinse and repeat until the soap stays white. If it has any color at all, I repeat until the all the paint is out of the bristles. The best way to ruin an expensive brush is to let paint dry in it. Once you use one, keep it wet until you can wash it properly!

You don't need one of every type of brush there is, but I'm sure you will end up with more to expirement with as time goes by. The type of brush and size will depend on what your painting, and how big. If you're doing hugh canvas, you will want bigger brushes, if your doing 8x10 and smaller then size #8 and smaller will work fine and a 1" or 1.5" hake brush. I paint mostly 16x20" and smaller and the #10 is my largest brush, not counting my hake which is a 2" brush.

You can use and abuse the bristles, but be gentle with your sables. I will take a bristle brush press and twist it into my pallet lid to splay the bristles out so I can use it to make nice leaf patterns, that I can't get if all the bristles are in their normal position. I was real reluctant the first time I did it. I was afraid I was going to ruin a $17.00 brush, but I've been doing it now for 3 years and I'm still using the same brush.

A good brush will retain it's shape if cared for properly. I like the bristle brushes to be stiff. A cheap brush will feel stiff, but when it gets wet, it will be soft. Good bristles will soften a little but still be stiff enough to do what you want it to.

You will need to learn to use the corner, the chisle edge and the flat part of the bristles. Each part of the brush produces different results.

One technique that you need stiff bristles for is making clumps of grass. You get paint on your bristles, then hold the brush 90' to the canvas. Then you sort of flict the bristles up and away from where you started. Repeat and you should be able with a little practice to create a rounded clump of grass. The bristles will spay out a little and you will have individual sprigs of grass sticking up out of the main body of grass. If you have soft bristles, they wont splay out and you wont get the desired results. They will stay together and you will end up with a bunch of paint but no little sprigs. It's much easier to show than to describe.

Hope this answers a few of your questions and gets you thinking about others.

Don

craigd
10-29-2004, 03:01 PM
msMsLilypond: Ah interesting thanks. I think I ought to get plenty tubs of gesso then if my "ctrl-z'ing" is anything to go by :p

Einion: Well the paints you recommended only came to 25 (if memory serves) through the sales. So I added a few more to take me to my budget limit :D The purple was on my list of mix'n'matched colours and when I seen I was under budget I thought it looked kinda nice. Same with sap green. Looks like a useful green. The hookers green (as recommended by jonesbf) seemed a weird kind of green (looked a hard one to get through mixing).

Mike Finn: Problem with me is I read up on stuff too much and get what's called information overload. Ordered a couple of brushes (can't remember which :p) so here's hoping I get on with them... or they get on with me!

Just waiting on it all arriving now! Won't be here till next week though :/ I'm hoping traditional media will teach me patience 'cause I don't have any! Ah well.. will just have to make do with the acrylics in Painter. Gotta love Painter IX 'cause it has all the colours by name so I can see roughly what I can do with the colours I'm waiting on arriving.

Again thanks for all your help all of you. I'll be giving out a point each to you all (since I read earlier we get 1 point to give away each day and if it's not used then it's gone..). Don't know if it matters much to any of you.. :P

Craig.

craigd
10-29-2004, 03:14 PM
Don: You got your reply in just before me! Thanks for explaining the brushes to me. It was more the actual size of the different numbers of the brushes that got me initially.

I opted for this set..

http://www.artdiscount.co.uk/acatalog/Pro_Arte_W7P_Series_B_Hog_Brush_Set.html

Seemed a good starter set with good ranges (I checked and it was cheaper than if I bought them individually). Ones I need afterwards I can always buy one at a time. Just wanted to make sure I actually had something to apply the paint to the canvas (except my fingers). Also got a painting knife although I've never used one of these and they do look like fun. Got a "Pro-arte Series B Hog brushes (Filbert) - Size 3" too since I'll be doing a bit of blending I think. Hope these are a good choice. Time will tell. Will see next week.

Thanks for your help.
Craig.

craigd
10-29-2004, 03:19 PM
Oops.. didn't notice..

4) In order to be "eligible" to spend an award point on someone, a member has to also meet certain criteria, including, but not limited to: length of membership, # of quality posts/threads they've made within that forum (or group of forums), etc

Sorry guys. No points from me then. I'll remember you when I'm eligible. HONEST! ;p

Einion
10-29-2004, 09:28 PM
Einion: Well the paints you recommended only came to 25 (if memory serves) through the sales. So I added a few more to take me to my budget limit :D
Why not? Many of us do the same sort of thing :)

The purple was on my list of mix'n'matched colours and when I seen I was under budget I thought it looked kinda nice. Same with sap green. Looks like a useful green. The hookers green (as recommended by jonesbf) seemed a weird kind of green (looked a hard one to get through mixing).
A colour like Sap Green hue is a decent choice if you want an 'anchor' colour to mix further greens from.

The Finity version of Hooker's Green is a simple mix of Quinacridone Gold and a phthalo blue. In common with almost all artists' paints these days the Finity labels include the pigment names, you'll see code numbers on the reverse, PO49 and PB15 in this case. That stands for Pigment Orange 49 and Pigment Blue 15, their Colour Index Names.

Just waiting on it all arriving now! Won't be here till next week though :/ I'm hoping traditional media will teach me patience 'cause I don't have any! Ah well.. will just have to make do with the acrylics in Painter.
Well actually because they dry so fast acrylics are an ideal medium for the impatient at heart! You can even speed up the drying with a hairdryer if you're really impatient, like I :D

Gotta love Painter IX 'cause it has all the colours by name so I can see roughly what I can do with the colours I'm waiting on arriving.
Cool, didn't know that. It's likely they didn't get the mixing behaviour of the paints exactly right though, so don't expect the real thing to act quite the same.

It was more the actual size of the different numbers of the brushes that got me initially.
Unfortunately brush sizes vary with a given number from brand to brand, e.g. I have 000s that are equivalent to a 0 from another maker. Between different brush styles there's often a large difference too.

The brushes you got are hog bristle, some people like these with acrylics but once they become wet they become much more bendy. In case you don't know you need to rinse your brushes thoroughly and often when painting with acrylics to prevent small amounts of paint from drying down near the base of the bristles. It's also a good idea not to use a completely dry brush with acrylics, just dampen them a bit before you load up with paint.

You'll probably want to read up on brush cleaning* too, there are a number of past threads you can hunt for.

Einion

*Don't worry though if the bristles are stained a little even after cleaning, certain pigments are notorious for doing this and it doesn't mean you didn't wash the brush adequately.

craigd
11-03-2004, 10:14 AM
Been away for a few days. I get back and my stuff's arrived!! Now I don't wanna get it all dirty! jk I'll dirty it all up as soon as I think of something to paint! Got 2 Galeria Acrylic pads (15 sheets each) to practice on before I attempt a canvas.

Einion: The varying brush sizes between manufacturers is what I was afraid of. I think I'll have to pop into the local art store to check out brushes since it's hard to tell online. Would be nice if they had some comparisons with the range of brushes and a matchbox or coin or something. The brushes I got just aren't big enough. I thought one would be quite big. But nope.. they're all small. Again, I'll pop round to the art store and get a bigger one. It's just more expensive usually.

Well again, I say thanks to all for the help you've all given me. You may not have thought it was much but all of your input has helped me get this stuff finally (I'd probably still be sitting cross referencing sites if not for you all).

No doubt I'll be asking for help on a daily basis ;p

::edit:: Thanks a lot for the brush cleaning tips too. When I painted with acrylics many many many years ago I did ruin my brushes almost straight away. Guess I won't have to worry about that this time round :]

Ahh best get to it then or it'll all just gather more dust than paint!

Rosa Weitzel
11-03-2004, 11:09 AM
Hi,
You worry about cleaning your brush, heres a tip in a bowl thats deep I put a large natural sponge about three inches deep and wide in the bowl. Fill the bowl half full of water and as I work when I want to change color I start pressing the paint brush down on the wet sponge it takes away the color very fast and you have a clean brush to work with, less messy too. Just rinse out when the water and sponge gets to dirty.
Also my recomendation is never add black to your colors to darken them you just make mud. And only use white when there is no other choise.
Good luck paint pretty pictures.
Rosa

craigd
11-03-2004, 01:39 PM
Ahh sounds like a good tip. Thanks! Waiting on a sponge (among other stuff) being delivered so I'll definitely give that a go.

I guess I'll find out which colours are better to use for darkening and lightening certain colours after a while. Will be doing a practice colour wheel and values to help with this.