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JayD
10-25-2004, 12:04 AM
Basic 101: Class 2



Eye Level: Foundation of Perspective

The source for this class can be found on Pages 15 through 19 of Rudy de Reyna’s How to Draw What You See.

Welcome to Class 2 of Basics 101. We are going to be covering the concept of eye level as it pertains to the successful laying out of perspective. The guest lecture series will take this class one step further with an excellent section devoted to one, two and three point perspectives. I urge you to do these simple exercises first before moving into the lecture hall.

Materials:

1. # 2 pencil or pencil you used in the last class

2. Paper—same as last class

3. Feel free to use a ruler this time around

Exercise 1: To demonstrate the concept of eye level, lay on the floor on you back. I did this in preparation for the class and woke up 45 minutes later. Please do not follow my example and take a nap. Instead, look up at everything around you and mentally break any objects that you see into geometric objects—mentally eliminate the detail. Even though this seems obvious, note that for most of these objects you will see the BOTTOMS of these shapes. Now, pick out an object and sit up and keep your eyes FIXED on the chosen object. Note that the object’s point of view changes as you raise to a sitting position. Now keeping your eye on the object, stand up slowly and continue to observe the change until the tops of the object come into view. Eye level is THAT simple yet it is such a natural occurrence for us that many of us (read ME) forget to make this basic observation. If you can establish eye level you can correctly work out perspective. The level at which your eye views an object is called the “horizon” line. (Figure A) There are an infinite number of horizon lines.

Vanishing Points

At this point, having learned my lesson from the last class, I am going to label our images as figure A, B, C and so on.

A vanishing point is an IMAGINERY point on the horizon line. There are in infinite number of vanishing points and it is up to you to fix the vanishing point according to your viewpoint. Your vanishing points will always be located ON the horizon line (eye level) that you establish. (See Figure B) In one point perspective, there is only one vanishing point. In two-point perspective there are two vanishing points and so forth. You will find examples of these in the guest lecture area.

The Cube In Perspective:

Exercise 2:

Follow these steps to create a cube in perspective (see also figure C)

a. Draw a rectangle or a square anywhere on your paper. This is the front of your cube..

b. Establish your horizon line (your eye level) and lightly draw it on the paper (you can also just do this in your head as many of us are prone to do).

c. Pick you vanishing point.

d. Connect the lines running from each of the edged of the Square or Rectangle to the vanishing point.

e. Add lines parallel to the front of the cubes along the lines running to the vanishing point (see figure C)

When you do this exercise, draw the cube several times using different vanishing points and horizon lines (eye levels).(see Figure D)

The mighty cube is a perfect visual example of the three dimensions: height, depth and width. If you can clearly define and then incorporate these dimensions into the objects that you draw, then you will be able to draw realistically.

Each dimension can vary. The height of the cube can be greater the depth or the width could be the biggest dimension of all three. Keeping this fact in mind will speed up your progress as an artist.


Exercise 3:

Look about your home and locate four boxes. When you have finished practicing the cubes, draw the boxes and add detail to them such as packaging design or lettering (if it is on you box). Do several studies of these boxes with detail but at different eye levels. Keep in mind eye level (horizon line) and vanishing point.








Exercise 4:

Taking your newfound artistic superpowers draw and post the following items.:

1. A Television (with detail)

2. A box of Kleenex (with detail)

3. A table

4. Redo the chair exercise from the previous class—only this time CHANGE THE HORIZON LINE (EYE LEVEL) and post. I will be doing the chair again for another class (Drawing with Cubic Objects). Use an ordinary straight dining chair (on the recommendation of Robin Neudorfer, class tutor), changing the eyelevel from the previous exercise. [changed 16 May 2008] post ref with exercise


FINALLY,

At the guest lecture hall you will find examples of one, two, and three point perspective. Go over these lectures and then try you hand at applying two and three point perspective to the subjects in exercise 4.

For those of you with buildings or outdoor scenes, take a crack at establishing your horizon lines in one, two and three point perspective. Correct the perspective in your drawing if needed. TIP: SKETCH OUT YOUR DRAWING FREEHAND AND THEN CORRECT THE DRAWING USING PERSPECTIVE.

I have included some reference photos that I took that you can try your skills out on OR you can grab some from the reference library.

Good luck and happy drawing!

PS--DONT FORGET TO TRY YOUR HAND AT STOY'S WEEKLY DRAWING THREAD!

PSS: Below are links to the previous class and pre-class threads!
Basic 101:Pre-Class Assignments and FAQs--PLEASE READ (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221326)
Basic 101:Class1 (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223763)

JayD
10-25-2004, 12:06 AM
Here are the practice photos mentioned in the lesson and dont forget to go to the guest lecture hall for Mitzi's lecture on perspective. :) See if you can locate the horizon line and vanishing points. How would you do these as drawings.

Jet
10-25-2004, 12:49 AM
Welcome to class #2...

JayD, thanks ...

I'd like to let everyone know that there is plenty of info on this subject on the Faqs thread..

There is one Elementary Perspective Lesson (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2840585#post2840585) that goes together perfectly with this lesson...
Among many more advanced lessons on perspective, in different links scattered all around that thread...

Thanks again !!

Kind Regards

daniellat
10-25-2004, 05:08 AM
Any possibility that this can be stickied as well?

Just a thought. Thank you moderators!!

Daniella, who is drawing impaired!! :rolleyes:

RuiFromUK
10-25-2004, 05:37 AM
Hi JayD, et al

This morning I walked into this office and I was straight onto WC to see if there was a new lesson! You guys are just marvelous. Thank you, thank you. :clap:

This weekend I also received the book from Amazon and the pdf file.

The biggest problem (looking at it again, I think it is not a problem at all) I am having at the moment is that I keep on dreaming of straight lines and circles. :D

Thank you once again for the excellent work you are doing.

Kind regards.

Rui

p.s. Daniella - Yuppie! We can use a ruler this week!

JayD
10-25-2004, 06:41 AM
Jet, I think we are going to brain fry everybody on perspective this week! :D Scratchmaster is also working on a tutorial and I have invited him to post it a well. Perspective is too important a subject to bypass and all 'perspectives' are welcome.

I actually HEAVILY edited my simplified intro to the subject because the guest lecture was so thorough. That left me time to focus on putting the excercises together.

Daniella, I have pmed Murray the Artdude and have asked him to sticky the class so we will have to wait and see.

Rui, last night I had two dreams: In the first, my laboratory director was now the director of the North Carolina State Zoo--for his first "big" exhibition he brought in a housecat--go figure. In the second dream someone did a portrait of Rudy de Reyna for the guest lecture series and I was rushing to get it posted--Strangely, in the dream, DeReyna looked for like Goya. :D

llanpe
10-25-2004, 10:23 AM
Thanks Jay, for this new class in something as important as perspective. I already did the first exercise (lay down on the floor, .... and didnt sleep :D )
Peter

JayD
10-25-2004, 11:57 AM
I hope you get a lot of this Peter--Perspective seems to be the topic of the week and you don't have to DO everything on here--there is a little bit for everyone to try. thanks-jay :)

Deb Leger
10-25-2004, 02:41 PM
Great lesson, Jay!

I've been working on my lunchhour at the pdf and it's all ready. Jay, I'm just waiting for a pm with your email address. Ann and Cathie, you should both have a copy now.

I have a few people on a list also, all of whom should also have their copy.

Now, back to work............

Deb

Cathie Jones
10-25-2004, 02:45 PM
Great lesson, Jay!

I've been working on my lunchhour at the pdf and it's all ready. Jay, I'm just waiting for a pm with your email address. Ann and Cathie, you should both have a copy now.

I have a few people on a list also, all of whom should also have their copy.

Now, back to work............

Deb

Thanks, Deb. I'm at work today and have a class right after work, so it'll be later tonight before I get it on the web site.

JayD
10-25-2004, 03:09 PM
Thanks, folks--it is EXTREMELY simplified but it follows what De Reyna outlines in his book so I was a bit worried that it was over simplified. Anyway, I hope the excercises make up for it.

In researching this piece I was amazed at how many types of perspective there are:

1,2 and 3 point perspectives
perspective rules for curves and circles
atmospheric perspective
box grid construction
reflections
sunlight and shadows
anamorphosis
curvilinear perspective

no wonder this can be such a confusing subject. There is a lot to cover.

If anybody out there wants to cover any of these subjects for a guest lecture--jump right in. :)

idcrisis55
10-25-2004, 03:37 PM
Thanks Deb! Lesson 2 .pdf is up on my site. The link is in my signature line :)

The lesson looks good JayD. At first with the worm's eye view, I thought it was the top instead of the bottom I was seeing so I sketched in lines on the bottom. Goofy eyes lol.

Ann

daniellat
10-25-2004, 03:54 PM
I am banging my head against the wall. This is so very frustrating to me. I feel stupid, but I know I am not. I have too many advanced degrees to be stupid, but this is just greek to me, and I took 5 years of Greek in school!! It ain't helping a bit!

I have read chapter 2 in the book - 3 times. And it makes perfect sense. I have read your lesson plan. And it makes perfect sense. In theory. When I try to put it into operation, I am dumbfounded. Makes no sense. I think I am tired. I am going to take a nap now. Wake me up on lesson 3 please!! :wink2:

Daniella

JayD
10-25-2004, 03:57 PM
Danielle, pm me when you get a chance and let me know if there is anything that I can help you with--perspective is very frustrating :)

L2isa2
10-25-2004, 04:14 PM
Hi JayD,

I would love to but I cannot get to grips with the basics of perspective !!

Sorry but will have ago !!

Got my knickers in a twist with the lesson you gave and then was really confused when I went to look at the guest lecture !

I have a total mental block on thisone :(

Will post my efforts during the week :)


Thank you for all your hard work :)
Regards
Lisa

g7i7n7a
10-25-2004, 04:15 PM
I've read through the lesson and will have to read it a few more times,but I think the fog is starting to clear. I have laid..did lie..got down on the floor and this excercise does seem to be helping me develop a better eye...as well as has given me a new perspective on the dirt in my kitchen. maybe there's a lesson in that too....
gina,
thanks again JayD, I'm blown away by your generous spirit in committing to this gigantic project. :clap: :clap:
and ditto to your trusty sidekick - Jet. :clap: :clap:

JayD
10-25-2004, 04:25 PM
Wow, Lisa--OK--there is only ONE thing to do--there is YET ANOTHER basic perspective tutorial in the main threads--have a look at that one--its got people and peepers and everything but a big purple dinosaur :D --I think you will really like it--its a different approach but I think it will make the idea clearer when you see it.

By the way, I was not covering perspective in the strictest sense--just eye level and its relationship to perspective--so give it your best shot--I think all of us have personal and emotional issues with perspective. :D

JayD
10-25-2004, 04:28 PM
Here is the link for Scratchmaster's (Russ') tutorial:

http://www.russpix.com/perspective/

L2isa2
10-25-2004, 04:39 PM
Thank you JayD,



It is good to know I am not the only one who has trouble and a block on this !!


Thank you for all your help I am on my way to see the other tutorial !

I will give it my best shot , I have promisd my self to get this one under my belt of understanding and applying before the end of this basic 101 tutorials are finished :)

THank you once again !!

Regards
Lisa

JayD
10-25-2004, 04:49 PM
Drawing these diagrams takes me back to those nightmarish days of drawing lighting plots for theatre productions--I am a lousy draftsman and perspective always feels like I am drafting. But think of yourself as Popeye and perspective as spinach--it can only make you stronger.

mhimeswc
10-25-2004, 05:08 PM
Well, not that I enjoy seeing other people struggling, but it's so good to know that I'm not the only one who has a mental block about this subject. I even have a few books on my shelf dedicated to the subject. When I read thru the lesson, I sort of (but not quite) understand it in theory. I can even draw an eye level and vanishing points and make a box. But when I go to use it for a real object, say a house, I'm lost. And as far as using it for something that isn't actually a rectangle, like a boat for goodness sake, my brain freezes totally. I've bookmarked all the lessons on perspective here and will read them again and again, and do my boxes and maybe the chair, and hopefully it will all sink in.

I used to take a watercolor class where we worked from still life setups. At least every other week there was a bread board in the still life. No matter how many times I tried, I could not get that bread board to look right. I don't take the class anymore, but if I ever get this perspective stuff straight, I'm going to re-do every bread board painting I have.

Michelle

Fireman's kid
10-25-2004, 05:27 PM
I'm with everyone else. I can read the lessons and think I understand it. Although I must admit after reading all of the lessons my brain felt like mush. But the real mushy brain occurs when I try to apply the lessons. I admit that many times I don't even know where the horizon line or vanishing point(s) is. I will do my best, but if I call out sick for the rest of the week you'll know why. :wink2: :p


PS. Thanks to the people who made the pdf files available ont heir websites! :clap: I grabbed week 1 and plan on copying this weeks too because I know I will need to read and reread and reread... lol

JayD
10-25-2004, 05:39 PM
Fireman's Kid--I think that is the stumper of perspective--how do I know where to place what. Ironically, the answer is to eyeball it. YOU decide where you want the horizon line to be and YOU decide where to place your vanishing points. In other words before applying perspective you have to make some decisions and those decisiosn are about how the viewer sees your picture and from what eye level.

I cannot say this enought but this might help all you with perspective:

NEVER DO YOUR PERSPECTIVE FIRST--DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT.

1. START WITH A SKETCH--DON'T WORRY ABOUT PERSPECTIVE

2. WORK YOUR SKETCH UNTIL YOU ARE SATISFIED WITH IT.

3. CORRECT IT WITH PERSPECTIVE

4. TRANSFER TO YOUR GOOD PAPER AND LET THE HAPPINESS BEGIN.

Hope this helps. By the way, I got this take on perspective from the Japanese.

Judi1957
10-25-2004, 06:17 PM
JayD,

Yes, this takes me back to drafts-woman days also. I loved it though. It is a lost art for sure. I worked in ink. Now everything is taken from your head to the screen. I get cross-eyed.

Now this perspective thing, that goes wa-a-a-a-a y back. But I'm gonna crawl thru. Probably be be calling on you for help.
There is a lot here to learn. Great lesson!

Thanks!
:wave:
Judi

Mary Woodul
10-25-2004, 07:49 PM
Fireman's Kid--I think that is the stumper of perspective--how do I know where to place what. Ironically, the answer is to eyeball it. YOU decide where you want the horizon line to be and YOU decide where to place your vanishing points. In other words before applying perspective you have to make some decisions and those decisiosn are about how the viewer sees your picture and from what eye level.

Thank you JayD, I think that you make it very clear here. I will have to read the lesson several times for it to stick in my brain but that will be fine if I finally learn perspectives.

Thank you Jet, for adding the direct link to the class. :D

Judi1957
10-25-2004, 08:18 PM
mathforum.com/workshops/sum98/ participants/sanders/TryPersp.gsp.html

JayD,
I'm trying so hard to put a link in here for this 'adjustable' perspective I found on the net, but I do not know how. Maybe you can do it, if you want. I thought it was pretty neat.

:wave:
Judi

JayD
10-25-2004, 08:27 PM
http://mathforum.org/workshops/sum98/participants/sanders/TryPersp.gsp.html

Try this one.

OK this one does work--it is really neat--it employs two point perspective.

Jet
10-25-2004, 09:33 PM
Thanks JayD, for the pointers on perspective...

I did this "study" of photograph #2 ...
It's easy to get confused when looking for the vanishing point, here i started with the red lines, then after going through several lines i changed it for the VP (green lines)..
All lines are true in rooms #1 & #2.....

Purple lines are supposed to be the vertical lines, although there is a slight lens aberration on room #3 ...

If we follow the lines we can tell that the windows in room #2 are identical, and the windows on #1 are not the same size...

By following these lines we can draw the bottom line of the house walls (here is the edge of room #1...
......and add a BBQ Grill with very accurate perspective, too...:cool:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Oct-2004/27782-Persp-b.jpg......http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Oct-2004/27782-lesson2-b-pb.jpg

Hope it helps...

Kind Regards
:wave:

Judi1957
10-25-2004, 11:15 PM
Jet,
I think this was a really good demonstation/study to show how you worked it out to get the VP. I think it will help us all!!!
:clap: :clap: :clap:

Thanks!
:wave:
Judi

daniellat
10-26-2004, 03:52 AM
Fireman's Kid--I think that is the stumper of perspective--how do I know where to place what. Ironically, the answer is to eyeball it. YOU decide where you want the horizon line to be and YOU decide where to place your vanishing points. In other words before applying perspective you have to make some decisions and those decisiosn are about how the viewer sees your picture and from what eye level.

I cannot say this enought but this might help all you with perspective:

NEVER DO YOUR PERSPECTIVE FIRST--DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT.

1. START WITH A SKETCH--DON'T WORRY ABOUT PERSPECTIVE

2. WORK YOUR SKETCH UNTIL YOU ARE SATISFIED WITH IT.

3. CORRECT IT WITH PERSPECTIVE

4. TRANSFER TO YOUR GOOD PAPER AND LET THE HAPPINESS BEGIN.

Hope this helps. By the way, I got this take on perspective from the Japanese.

Huge help, JayD. I thought you had to plan perspective FIRST. Now I may be able to make more sense of all this. We shall see. Off to finish Week one's requirements.

Daniella

daniellat
10-26-2004, 03:54 AM
Danielle, pm me when you get a chance and let me know if there is anything that I can help you with--perspective is very frustrating :)

Thanks, JayD. I will do that once I figure out where it is I am going wrong!! You guys are the best, ya know.

Daniella

daniellat
10-26-2004, 05:49 AM
Okay, dumb question time. I just finished my week 1 requirements, and I posted them in the week 1 thread. Is that correct? Do you go back and check it periodically? Had to hunt for it. This board moves fast!!

Have a good one, all.

Daniella

JayD
10-26-2004, 06:38 AM
QUICK TIP FROM THE BIRD: if you go to the opening of each class that is stickied for the week, you will find that I will be placing links to all the classes so that you won't have to scurry all over the place looking for the course. Just go to the weekly class--in this case BASIC 101: Class 2 and you will find a link to class one. Hope this helps.--jay :)

SILKNSATIN
10-26-2004, 07:19 AM
This really puts me in thought but can't get started till tomorrow.I promise I won't fall asleep. :D

Hayward
10-26-2004, 09:52 AM
Boy are we all scared of perspective or what !!!....lol Excited and awe by this weeks theme and assignments. Will diligently work on them.

Thanks again for all your hard work and assisting us all. I for one NEED IT!.

Jo

TORTIKO
10-26-2004, 12:28 PM
Wow, I only got to see the lesson this afternoon and already I know I'm going to be in deep water here and I can't swim. :D At least it sounds like I'm not the only one though so that's encouraging. I will give it a shot as I know it will help me tremendously, but I may be a bit slow on the uptake. :o
JayD you have helped me already because I thought that the horizon line was already set, but invisible and that you had to guess where it was. Also I would have tried to work out the perspective first , so you see my knowledge has improved already.
I would like to add my thank you to the people that are donating there time and knowledge so willingly with this course. I had opted out of the merit system but this has made me think again.
Rita

Hayward
10-26-2004, 03:09 PM
Jay,
I almost was thinking I was getting better perspective eyeballing my object....
trying it with the horizon lines on a box of kleenex did not gain me much sucess.

Horizon line is basically YOUR eye level....the vp's are where ever.....yes?

So if viewing say a kleenex box that is 1/2 below your horizon line is it best to draw the "box" of the TOP of the object below your view point or draw the "front" of the object? and create the top using the vanishing point?

With a Kleenex box fairly near you and at a slight angle or even straight is hard to determine where the vp is.......HELP !!!

I also had some trouble deciding how DEEP to go..when drawing the "back" of the object - is there a rule of thumb?
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Oct-2004/47044-lesson-2.jpg

Thanks, Jo

idcrisis55
10-26-2004, 03:37 PM
I've been doing Exercise 1 for a large part of the morning, looking down at things, up at objects and those that are almost eye level. Just doing this makes me ask, ok this is eye level and the vanishing would go to . . . .

Attached is Exercise 2. Doing this exercise reminds of those photos or paintings that have two pictures in them, blink and it changes. That is what happens to me with the worm's eye perspective, because all of a sudden just by placing a line a certain way I have a bird's eye view.

Now to set up boxes for the next exercise.

Ann

JayD
10-26-2004, 03:58 PM
Do you folks remember Norman Bel Geddes, innovative designer who came up with the pre fabricated house? If you don't know him--his daughter is Barbara Bel Geddes--Miss Ellie on the Show "Dallas". I was laughing out loud when I saw the postings because they mad me think of some designs that I saw of his a few years back. Anyway:


Horizon line is basically YOUR eye level....the vp's are where ever.....yes?

So if viewing say a kleenex box that is 1/2 below your horizon line is it best to draw the "box" of the TOP of the object below your view point or draw the "front" of the object? and create the top using the vanishing point?

With a Kleenex box fairly near you and at a slight angle or even straight is hard to determine where the vp is.......HELP !!!

I also had some trouble deciding how DEEP to go..when drawing the "back" of the object - is there a rule of thumb?

Jo--The problem with perspective in my opinion is that it is a combination of drafting and eyballing--an odd couple to be sure. The horizon line IS your eye level but, like the vanishing point, you are deciding how it will be placed. The horizon line in art is the eye level that the artist wants the viewer to experience.

Regarding the vp--YOU SET THE VP--so lets day you have done your sketch of a box. Take a ruler and let the lines run to the horizon line and where they converge will be your vanishing point.

How deep do you go--that is up to you--remember todraw the box first, then correct it using perspective. That should give you an idea as to how deep you can go--basically your sketch will determine depth.

Ann--I think you are getting--when doing excercise one though--don't worry about vanishing points--just observe how eye level work in conjunction with geometric objects.

daniellat
10-26-2004, 04:53 PM
JayD suggested that I post this chair in this week's thread - as an example of changing one's eye level! Humph. And I didn't even know I did that!! Humph. :evil: :evil: :evil:

So here it is!!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Oct-2004/46985-Drawing_101_002a.jpg

Pitiful, I know!! :eek:

Daniella

JayD
10-26-2004, 05:16 PM
Danielle, sorry to give you the humphs. :D No the chair is ok--it looks good and so does the picture but when you drew it the eye level changed. I think it is a very good example. When you get the concept of eye level down--you will be able to do this at will--kind of like a superpower.

OK, Jet this is your cue to pop up with another demonstration! :D

Jet
10-26-2004, 05:46 PM
Thanks JayD,..

Hello Guys & Gals,
I've been too busy moving....and it's only moving 2 rooms full of dusty stuff to 2 stories above..pant..pant..!!

OK now, back to the fun !! :)

Ann, Jo,you're doing great; there is no fast rule as to how deep an object will be as it is more a perceptual issue...to get our attention let's imagine a shadow...How long(deep) a shadow has to be it depends on the position/distance of the lighting source and the surface, where it will (cast) fall upon....same goes here, but this time your eyes are the equivalent of the light source....

One way to know for sure is, to compare it with other objects sitting next to it....and a better way to understand this is by taking pictures at different angles and compare the relationship between an acute angle and an obtuse one..you'll notice that at one point there will be the need for fore shortening your objects, and all their depths look -not quite, but- about the same.

This will be more easy to understand if we take a look at buildings and how architects figure this out, i had the opportunity to attend 2 semesters of Architecture and this is about the only thing that i am familiar with...
Following, is the best picture JayD could have posted, for illustrating this topic...

This photograph is the whole enchilada as to what One-Point Perspective is all about...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Oct-2004/27782-Photo3-1PP.jpg
You can see lines of different color here, the Horizon (green), Convergence Lines (yellow), Vertical (red)...
You'll find the horizon as the flat line that crosses the vanishing point(s), and it tells us where the photographer was standing too. This clever photographer was standing at a 2nd level, and he was aiming straight ahead, slightly tilted CCW -not being generally noticed, but in short range objects-.

Going back to the kleenex box, one way to 'tell' the depth of objects is to place 'clues', as the 'squares' on the floor of this photograph, it let us know, the length of adjacent objects (buildings) by looking at these squares ...:cool:

I hope i made sense here ...If not please let me know !

This picture is so rich in information that is our most valuable tool for this topic.. Good Job JayD... http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

Regards
:wave:

mhimeswc
10-26-2004, 06:15 PM
I think I got it. I threw a LOT of paper away. Here are cubes in one and two point perspective. I think the outsides of the "boxes" are correct, but I'm not sure about the insides. Is it important to understand the insides?
I'm also not sure that I will remember how to do this tomorrow. I look at it and I think it looks right and I understand how I did it, and then I blink and it looks strange and I don't get it, then if I stare at it long enough I can see it again. I'll try to do it again tomorrow before I move on to the next exercise.

Michelle

P.S. The one-point scan is not great so you can't see some of the lines.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Oct-2004/20035-OnePointPerspective.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Oct-2004/20035-2PointPerspective.jpg

mhimeswc
10-26-2004, 06:27 PM
Great diagram, Jet. I think I almost understood that. :)

Michelle

idcrisis55
10-26-2004, 06:39 PM
Jet, very good explanation and diagram. Like Michelle, I think I almost understand it. The test will be doing the perspective on the photos JayD gave us. First though, I have to do Exercise 3 with the different boxes.

Thanks for the post and all the good info you are putting in the Drawing FAQ thread. I tried to give you a mentor point but it said I don't have enough points in the forum yet to do that :), which was strange because I think I gave JayD a mentor point. Hmmm.

Michelle, nice work on your boxes.

Ann

JayD
10-26-2004, 06:45 PM
Jet has illustrated something that I have been trying to get across. That second picture is of a schoolyard. Notice that he has drawn lines converging into a vanishing point. Now, Pretend that the picture is a rough sketch--your rough sketch. Do what Jet did to the photo to your rough sketches and I guarantee that you will lock this perspective thing up. Thanks Jet!!! :clap:

JayD
10-26-2004, 06:50 PM
Oh, Jet--thanks for the kudos on the photos. I am the photographer. :D

NatalieS
10-26-2004, 07:09 PM
Sorry I missed the first one, I'm really busy at the moment, I'm going to try and do this one! I'm so sorry! :(

JayD
10-26-2004, 07:14 PM
Hi,Natalie. Thanks for joining us! Dont feel bad about missing the first one--there is a link at the top of the lecture that will put you into the first class if you want to try it but go ahead and dive into this-this is as hard as it will get--the rest should be fairly smooth. I can't wait to see your posts! :) :clap:

Judi1957
10-26-2004, 08:41 PM
JayD,

WOW, this session has a lot of info. I did the work, but had trouble.
Had to redo the VP on the table 3 times and really had a hard time visualizing "THAT CHAIR" (not shouting). Miscalculated the scale and didn't realized it till halfway through. Should have looked at it better after the sketch. I would have certainly appreciated a mission style chair better :D :D . Had a hard time with the curvature, especially along the top of the back. Still not sure I have it quite right.
Anyway, here's my post. Actually 2 posts as limit of 5 uploads.

:wave:
Judi

Judi1957
10-26-2004, 08:44 PM
JayD,
Here are the other two posts.
I am very appreciative of your work and dedication to the class!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

:wave:
Judi

JayD
10-26-2004, 08:59 PM
Wow Judi, you're a speed demon. I love the boxes and that table. You should be designing furniture. I see you employed two point perspective as well and that you chose diverse eye levels to play with. Outstanding!

Did you sketch out everthing first and then correct with perspective or did you do the perspective first?

JayD
10-26-2004, 09:09 PM
Now people are doing all this on computers--Judi--I missed the chair and I meant to comment--that is exactly what I was looking for in the lesson--

QUESTION FOR THE CLASS--JET, YOU KEEP QUIET--CAUSE I KNOW YOU KNOW--HOW DO YOU DO A SPHERE IN PERSPECTIVE?

Georgi
10-26-2004, 09:36 PM
If you've been wondering where I've been...I've been laying on the floor on my back and haven't been able to get up!! The cats just walk by me and 'miaow' wondering where their food is! :evil: And this floor is getting damn hard! :mad:

I've just read through this thread for the the first time...thanks so much JayD for organising this. It's so informative and helpful. I've got a lot more re-reading to do, I think! :)

I remember Barbara Bel Geddes well...she played Red Nicholls' wife...(Nicholls played by Danny Kaye) in "The Five Pennies"...and yes, I cried my eyes out every time I watched that movie...and I guess I would still if they ever bring it back on television! lol It was a nice movie...and I had the LP somewhere along the line!

Thanks again everyone for this thread...it's truly great.

Lee :) :clap: :clap: :clap:

Jet
10-26-2004, 09:37 PM
QUESTION FOR THE CLASS--JET, YOU KEEP QUIET--CAUSE I KNOW YOU KNOW--HOW DO YOU DO A SPHERE IN PERSPECTIVE?
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Apr-2004/27782-eusa_silenced.gif

mmhhmph !!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Apr-2004/27782-eusa_silenced.gif

______
:cool:

Georgi
10-26-2004, 09:52 PM
Would you not draw lines from each corner of a square, for example...the point where the four lines cross is the centre and you draw your sphere using the point as your reference and guide...if anyone can understand a word about which I'm trying to say, that is! :wink2:

Lee :cat:

JayD
10-26-2004, 09:52 PM
Yes, Norman Bel Geddes was required reading when I was in college, Lee and his daughter was a super actress.

Georgi
10-26-2004, 09:57 PM
Yep...I agree about Barbara, JayD...she had such a beautiful calm face...not your 'picture book' beauty but a natural beauty...to my way of thinking anyway. :)

Lee :wink2:

Judi1957
10-26-2004, 10:02 PM
JayD,
Not such a speed demon. Did the first attachment last week and the winebox over the weekend. Thanks for the comments. I did try to post quickly as my computer has a virus and I get thrown off a lot. Have the Norton Anti-Virus Protection. Lot a good that does. :crying:
I am clueless as to the sphere. :confused:
:wave:
Judi

JayD
10-26-2004, 10:03 PM
Lee, regarding the sphere--you are EXTREMELY close. :) I see Jet in the back of the class jumping up and down, waving his hand frantically saying "Me! Me!" :evil:

Judi1957
10-26-2004, 10:19 PM
Call on Jet before he falls out of his chair! We want to know!!!

:wave:
Judi

JayD
10-26-2004, 10:58 PM
Lee was practically right--

1. Draw a cube--remember the evil cube?--draw it in perspective.

2..Draw your sphere INSIDE the cube.

OR

1. Draw your sketch of the sphere

2. Encase the sphere in the cube

3. Align the cube in perspective

4. correct the sphere using the cube as a guide.


Jet, did I get it right?

mhimeswc
10-26-2004, 11:14 PM
Some of us are still trying to get the cube right while it's empty. :confused:

Michelle

Jet
10-26-2004, 11:17 PM
JayD, and honorable 101ers members...

I can't talk too much without confusing the whole thread over, as now i am getting an article ready, for a new thread on Drawing Aids (cheating devices) all the way back to (almost) 500 years ago...

Let's remember that perspective is another device to help our eyes get a 3D illusion from a flat 2D painting/drawing....
Here is some words from a wise man:
The problem with perspective is not using it, but using it so that drawn pictures of things look right - drawing things "in perspective".

Here are some graphic definitions of a circle and a sphere drawn in 1-point perspective...
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Oct-2004/27782-circle.jpg......http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Oct-2004/27782-sphere.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Oct-2004/27782-easter-egg.jpg

-I don't want to give my links away just yet-
Please wait for the thread with this info... it's going to knock your socks off !! :D

I hope i am not confusing anyone already !! :rolleyes:

Regards

Foil
10-26-2004, 11:20 PM
Here are my exercises 2 and 3. I think I did okay in Exercise 2. However I see some problems with exercise 3; I may have made it overly difficult on myself by setting up 4 boxes on the floor (hense the horizon line so high) and each one at a different angle. I have two questions...

1) How do I deal with vanishing points that are off the page as many of these are? It seems hard to pinpoint that one point off the page.

2) I think the perspective of the box on the right hand side is off. Is this because I chose the wrong vanishing point? How do you select the right point when you have so many different objects that need to be correct relative to each other?

Please don't be afraid of hurting my feelings... I need an honest evaluation of what I did wrong here so I can get it right next time.

JayD
10-26-2004, 11:30 PM
Hi, Foil--they look really good. You just hit upon a point that I did not cover and for the answer we wil turn to a trick the Japanese use--if you see that your vanishing point will be BEYOND the paper--simply slip another piece of paper under your work and slide it out as far as you need (like a telescope) until you get to where you can mark the vanishing point. You are on the right track foil, keep up the good work.! :clap:

Jet, an excellent demonstration. Now, if you get a chance, do the cube and sphere sans the computer--see what happens. Also, consider the placement of shadow or reflection when constructing your sphere.

(class, all this sphere stuff is extra credit only--it is not mandatory). :D

JayD
10-26-2004, 11:34 PM
Foil, you are right --the box on the right hand side is off--but upon examining the drawing I noticed, as you said, that the lines are extending off the paper--try doing that one box again using the extra paper to plot your vanishing point. The reason that the box is off, I suspect, is because I dont think your lines extending outward are correct--I think they skewed your drawing and the extended paper may fix this.

Foil
10-26-2004, 11:59 PM
Foil, you are right --the box on the right hand side is off--but upon examining the drawing I noticed, as you said, that the lines are extending off the paper--try doing that one box again using the extra paper to plot your vanishing point. The reason that the box is off, I suspect, is because I dont think your lines extending outward are correct--I think they skewed your drawing and the extended paper may fix this.
Thanks for the tip of using the extra paper. In my case I was using a sketchbook held on my lap so it might have been a bit difficult but I understand the theory... I'll try it next time. Now as for the box on the right hand side, I think the problem is mainly caused by the second vanishing point that is visible on the page. I think that one is in the wrong place. I've not yet read through the Guest Lecture on 2 and 3 point perspective so maybe that will help me figure out how to correctly place those multiple vanishing points.

resgene
10-27-2004, 12:28 AM
Exercise 1 - perspective makes a little more sense, might have to practice squares as well as circles now :D . 3 point perspective is a bit of a worry.... now on to exercise 2.

regards,
Michelle.

daniellat
10-27-2004, 04:30 AM
ARGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Dropped brand new digicam on floor, broke the stupid thing. Have to go out tomorrow and buy another. Beats head on wall. Sigh.............

Daniella

By the way, did I ever tell you I was the class clown in school? I will try to behave here, however.

D :wave:

RuiFromUK
10-27-2004, 04:33 AM
Hi Daniella,

I am sorry to hear about your camera being broken.

Kind regards.

Rui

Hayward
10-27-2004, 09:12 AM
Jay and Jet
Thanks for your encouragement...Jet your diagram was very easy to understand...I will draw more boxes and what not today....
I'm getting it....thanks to your help.

Jet I'll help you move boxes.....(I also need to strenghten my biceps!!! lol)

I can say enough how much all your instruction is appreciated.

Jo

Hayward
10-27-2004, 09:21 AM
Lee,
"5 Little Pennies" is one of my favorite movies.....glad someone else enjoys it too..... a Kleenex box movie for sure....that goes with this weeks lesson..lol kleenex boxes.

Jo

Fireman's kid
10-27-2004, 10:11 AM
Wow! Everyone is doing so well here. I need to get my butt in gear. :D

I once went to check out a local art school when I was first interested in taking classes. This school's "thing" was that they taught you how to draw the way the old masters learned (so they said). It was very analytical and reminded me of drafting class and totally appealed to the engineer in me (because it seemed to rely more on rules than creativity). Unfortunately I was working full time and couldn't handle the course load so I never signed up. But the point of the story is that while I was there they showed us how to draw or construct a perfect sphere.

What I remember of it was to draw a cube (like Jay said) then I think you used diagnol lines on each side of the cube to find the center and used the centers to draw the circles in the sphere. Hmmm...not sure that is coming across in words. I'll try to draw and post it.

Anyway, I thought this was the coolest trick. I doodled spheres for weeks! It was so much fun. I didn't remember this trick until I read Jay's question.

Okay, off to do my homework. Yippee. :rolleyes:

(In case you are wondering...yes this long post was an elaborate way to procrastinate. :D :evil: )

halachmi
10-27-2004, 12:09 PM
my phone:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Oct-2004/4163-phone_-_perspective.jpg

JayD
10-27-2004, 02:20 PM
That phone in those lines looks like it is moving at 60 miles an hour. You know, I did not even consider cell phones for the practice. Nice work! :clap:

Foil
10-27-2004, 03:46 PM
I don't mean to be critical but since we're all here to learn I hope you don't mind... I noticed something with the phone picture that I thought I would point out. The red lines in my picture are the extentions of the sides of your box. Note that they do not converge to a point on the horizon line. I think the green line would be the way to go. If I'm wrong, please let me know.

JayD
10-27-2004, 04:21 PM
Yes and no.

The telephone is drawn is in one point perspective. The way that you are outlining would place it in two point perspective in which case the lines would converge at both vanishiing points as you have skillfully pointed out. Good observation!

Cathie Jones
10-27-2004, 04:53 PM
I can't believe the great drawings in this lesson! Beautiful boxes!!! :D and I haven't even started yet . . .

Tonight, I promise. It's hard to get this stuff done and work and school. Tonight's my free night, though, so I should at least get a couple of boxes done!

Jet
10-27-2004, 05:10 PM
Yikes !!

**Sorry , my connection has been down until a few minutes ago...

I had wanted to post these links before, please take a look at them in The Faqs Thread (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2849884#post2849884)

Kind Regards
:wave:

JayD
10-27-2004, 05:28 PM
Wow! Jet! Thanks! :clap:

g7i7n7a
10-27-2004, 05:42 PM
Hi,
Finally got my scanner funtional, can't scan with 56 ram. who knew.

Here are my circles , the chair, a horse and the Venice buildings,
As a beginner, I found I do the outlines and then I seem to get drawers block.
I did eventually attempt some fill in on the buildings, but quit because I wasn't sure of what I was doing. I did have fun sketching in the tables and chairs though,I don't know if you can see that.
I am going to attempt to fill in some circles, copying some of the others that I have seen posted. :) :) I'm abit behind but will catch up by next lesson.
:) :)
gina

g7i7n7a
10-27-2004, 05:44 PM
OK that didn't work
let's try again.
gina
nope. It says cannot find server.hmmm

sultry
10-27-2004, 06:17 PM
Hi Jay & Class,
It is funny but in everything you experience in life ... food, pleasure, love and hobbies you seem to do better in the things that you feel comfortable with.

Well, I am not comfortable with perspective or straight line drawing ( it is mind work to me).

Anyways, I feel my free hand sketches are better because I am comfortable doing them. When I have to think (like I did on this excercise ) it was a little stressful till I got the hang of it and things fell in place.

I am still not a great fan of perspective but I will not dread it as I have in the past.

I mixed my assignments below drew my boxes but turned them into a clock radio; lighter and kleenex box.

I also drew my dad's barn (I used the sphere technique to make my arches by the way.) and added the road lined with trees along with a horse and people.

halachmi
10-27-2004, 06:45 PM
thanks alot Foil & JayD .
i followed the instructions and saw there is something wrong, but could'nt put my finger on it. you explained it perfectly !!

JayD
10-27-2004, 06:45 PM
Well, I am not comfortable with perspective or straight line drawing ( it is mind work to me).

Anyways, I feel my free hand sketches are better because I am comfortable doing them. When I have to think (like I did on this excercise ) it was a little stressful till I got the hang of it and things fell in place.

I am still not a great fan of perspective but I will not dread it as I have in the past.

I mixed my assignments below drew my boxes but turned them into a clock radio; lighter and kleenex box.

I also drew my dad's barn (I used the sphere technique to make my arches by the way.) and added the road lined with trees along with a horse and people.


If I had to draw constantly thinking about perspective, I think I would still be playing my guitar--but egads--music theory is even worse!

Sultry, just remember that this is not a BETTER way to draw--perspective is a system of gauging and then correcting what you have turned out free hand. I have a very loose style of drawing and I intend to keep it that way-no compromises but I do know that if the perspective is off in an image it is sort of like looking at a picture hanging slightly crooked on a wall--it is a distraction to the viewer.

Same with straight lines--I like my lines zooming every which way--its called loose flowy style BUT sometimes you or I are going to run into a problem when trying to create a drawing and hopefully what you pick up here will not be your standard operating procedure but rather something handily ready to use in your artist's bag of tricks--that is how I look at it.

Don't ever become a fan of perspective--use it repectfully--but if you start to love it like no other then I have destroyed an artist and transformed her into an architect. :D

Jet
10-27-2004, 07:21 PM
Well said JayD, -no offense to my ex colleagues- :D

Perspective is a TOOL, a "device" that had never been used until about 500 years ago... then it became obsessive to all artists, and several machines were invented for getting it 'right' up to the point of exagerating it to (today seeming) ridiculous heights, but it was the new toy of the masters, and they were joyful applying it to every little thing, creating masterpieces of detail and the mixed and reverse perspective only made by a small number of painters...it was like a manipulation of reality, a daring technique in those days ...
It rings the bells of Dejá vú,a little, as to the digital medium nowadays...lol...

Perspective is a necessary tool, something to learn at least the basics, and it will become second nature as you keep drawing/painting/sketching; Many are applying it, although not completely aware of it.

There's no need to go too deep on the subject, you go at your own pace....don't mind JayD and I , and some other members that like to go deeper on this type of topics...

Keep it up !!

Regards

JayD
10-27-2004, 07:48 PM
thanks alot Foil & JayD .
i followed the instructions and saw there is something wrong, but could'nt put my finger on it. you explained it perfectly !!

Halachmi--you DO understand that your drawing IS correct if done in one point perspective. Try redoing the excercise in two point perspective and you will see what I mean. I am not pushing a right way to do things here--we want to explore as much as possible so please--PLAY! :)

Foil
10-27-2004, 08:59 PM
Halachmi--you DO understand that your drawing IS correct if done in one point perspective. Try redoing the excercise in two point perspective and you will see what I mean. I am not pushing a right way to do things here--we want to explore as much as possible so please--PLAY! :)
I had an elaborate argument prepared against your statement that the drawing IS correct. However then I read through the lecture series stuff and I no longer disagree with you. What I still don't quite understand is when would you choose to use 1, 2 or 3 point perspective? It seems to me that if the objective is to draw an accurate representation of a 3D shape you really must use 2 or even 3 point perspective. I don't understand when you would want to use 1 point perspective.

Foil
10-27-2004, 09:07 PM
I may as well just argue with myself but... the phone picture is not correct even in 1 point perspective. The definition of 1 point perspective states "All horizontal lines are parallel to the horizon... never intersecting with the horizon". This is not the case with the phone picture. I hope I'm not confusing everyone with this... my intent is just to fully understand.

JayD
10-27-2004, 09:22 PM
Foil, you are not arguing with yourself--I went back and looked at it--something is askew but I can't place it. I think it is the back edge but in one point perspective it should work--I think your eye may be better then mine--no argument there.

Jet, would care to take a stab at this?

JayD
10-27-2004, 09:35 PM
You would think I would know this--I downloaded both images--Foil, Jet--if you are out there--I think the end of the phone (the end of the cube is not square or level--it seems to be throwing off the perspective) what do you think?

bjs0704
10-27-2004, 09:39 PM
Here’s my cubes!

It feels good to finally be getting a start on the exercises for this week!

On to Exercise 3!

Barb Solomon :cat:

Foil
10-27-2004, 10:28 PM
Foil, you are not arguing with yourself--I went back and looked at it--something is askew but I can't place it. I think it is the back edge but in one point perspective it should work--I think your eye may be better then mine--no argument there.

Jet, would care to take a stab at this?
I think I figured it out... For 1 point perspective "All planes must be perpendicular or parallel to you in order for this system to work correctly. If you are looking at the corner of an object that is not at a 90 degree angle to you this will create distortions!" (from http://www2.evansville.edu/studiochalkboard/lp-intro.html) In the case of the phone picture, it is not perpendicular or parallel to the viewer, we are looking at the corner of the phone therefore 2 or 3 point perspective should be used.

If you picture yourself standing in the middle of a road with buildings along each side of it, the two sides of the road are parallel to you and each other therefore they appear to converge at the vanishing point in the distance. Same with the buildings. However if one of the buildings was built at an angle to the road or the other buildings, it would need to be drawn using 2 point perspective because you're looking at the corner of it. Whew! not sure if that makes sense but it will give you something to chew on.

JayD
10-27-2004, 10:51 PM
Is this class giving anybody else a severe headache? :D I checked out the link--you are absolutely correct and I have learned something. Thank you!

As a choir director I worked with once said (several times over): First mistake I ever made! :D

Jet
10-27-2004, 10:52 PM
Just got back and i'm going out again....be back in a couple of hours!
_____________
This is a quick take on the phone ,drawn on 1-point perspective..

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Oct-2004/27782-phone1.jpg

I guess you already have it figured out..!!

See ya later..

Regards

JayD
10-27-2004, 11:30 PM
Barb, your picture looks like the attack of the borg :D When I did mine, I did several vanishing points but you have all your boxes converging into one convenient vanishing point. I like it. Did you draw your cubes first as a sketch? Nice job all around.

bjs0704
10-28-2004, 12:26 AM
LOL !!!! I hadn’t thought of the comparison to the Borg but I really like the idea of it! :cool:

I drew the front of my first cube and then set my vanishing point. At that point, it only made sense to me that I would be seeing the other cubes going to the same vanishing points. So I would draw another square and turn that square into a cube.

The "Borg invasion" could just grow and grow! :evil:

Barb Solomon :cat:

Jet
10-28-2004, 02:18 AM
How about a 6-point perspective (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2851257#post2851257) drawing/painting ?

Yikes, that will send me to the loonie farm, for sure.. :wink2: :confused: :evil:

Regards

Blah
10-28-2004, 05:18 AM
Halachmi--you DO understand that your drawing IS correct if done in one point perspective. Try redoing the excercise in two point perspective and you will see what I mean. I am not pushing a right way to do things here--we want to explore as much as possible so please--PLAY! :)


Jay, for Halachmi's cell phone drawing to be correct in single point perspective, wouldn't the parallel lines have to be horizontal? In other words, should not one of the faces of the object be absolutely square to the viewer?

Blah

halachmi
10-28-2004, 06:05 AM
my two perspective phone:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Oct-2004/4163-phone2_-_perspective.jpg

JayD
10-28-2004, 06:56 AM
halachmi--no offense but I think I have been cured of cell phones :D I am curious about something as I look at this--we talked about the vanishing points sometime zooming off the paper--did that happen in this case? Do you like this phone better?

resgene
10-28-2004, 08:35 AM
Sorry about the quality of the images - I haven't used my scanner for ages and I think it's busted.... so I am resorting to my digital camera.

This is the boxes for Exercise 3, television and tissue box for Exercise 4 and some floating rectangles....just because it was fun to do...

Now I'm off to do the table and the chair. I tried a mobile phone - it looks more like a calculator but I have posted it anyway. It is higher at the top end and smaller at the base so I found I had two vanishing points (one for the slope and one for the phone itself) even though it has a one point perspective - is this correct?

Regards,
Michelle.

Foil
10-28-2004, 10:16 AM
I think I may have been a little hasty in my critisism of the phone. Something new just occurred to me which I will attempt to explain. (sorry if this confuses you even more but I think it might just help to clarify)

The original phone picture might have been correctly drawn in 1 point perspective if the side of the phone was parallel to the line of sight of the artist. That would mean the back side of the phone (the side nearest the artist) would be perpendicular to the artist's line of sight. Even if the the phone was off to the side instead of directly in front of the artist (which is why you can see the side of it) it could still be parallel to the line of sight and therefor correctly drawn in 1 point perspective.

On the other hand, if the side of the phone was not parallel to the artist's line of sight, then the picture was not correctly drawn and 2 point perspective should have been used.

I have attached a very rough view from above looking directly down which I think might show it more clearly than the words.

I hope this hasn't confused things even more...

Blah
10-28-2004, 11:17 AM
Halachmi....your new cell phone drawing in two point perspective is nice, but I think the top edge of the phone should also vanish to the same point to our right as the bottom edge.

Michelle, your drawings are very nice and I think you have thoroughly grasped the principles spelt out so far.

I also think your cell phone/calculator drawing is correct. Since it is thinner at the farther end you would have first drawn a rectangular box of uniform thickness in perspective, worked out the point at the far end that gives you the lesser thickness, and then connected that point with the corresponding point at the thicker end. You will need to do this with both vertices (corners) at the far end, which you have done correctly.

Foil... your drawing indicates that you have understood the principle. However you have said " On the other hand, if the side of the phone was not PARALLEL to the artist's line of sight, then the picture was not correctly drawn and 2 point perspective should have been used." Actually the shorter side of the phone, in this instance, should be perpendicular to (or square / normal) to your line of sight. This is so in your drawing and therefore it will be in single point perspective as you have rightly stated.

Blah

Judi1957
10-28-2004, 12:25 PM
Wow, everyone is doing so great!!! I think a day out and I've fallen way behind for sure. A lot of discussion here I need to read to catch up!
This is a great class!!!

:wave:
Judi

sultry
10-28-2004, 12:55 PM
Ok heres the chair from a cat's eye view :)

g7i7n7a
10-28-2004, 04:36 PM
Hello Everyone,

Sorry to interrupt, I'm having trouble now uploading, If anyone (JET) has any insight as to what the problem might be, I would appreciate any suggestions.
after pressing upload, the response I get is "cannot find server."

Michelle, most excellent boxes! I"m new to this , it's so great to have people more advanced to learn from. It's helping me out alot.
thanks again,
gina

TORTIKO
10-28-2004, 06:17 PM
I am posting my first attempts at a tv, a dvd box and a nursery table and chair set.I don't feel as though I am really cracking this prospective thing so could you please tell me if I'm getting anywhere. Boy I'm beginning to wonder how I managed to draw anything. Doing the chair is really worrying me but I will have an attempt.and post it tomorrow.
Rita

Jet
10-28-2004, 06:55 PM
Hello Everyone,

Sorry to interrupt, I'm having trouble now uploading, If anyone (JET) has any insight as to what the problem might be, I would appreciate any suggestions.
after pressing upload, the response I get is "cannot find server."

Michelle, most excellent boxes! I"m new to this , it's so great to have people more advanced to learn from. It's helping me out alot.
thanks again,
gina

Gina, Hi !
Sometimes the server is too busy, and we get all kind of strange messages, depending on what signal the server gets ...

If the same message stands, after trying again...
Then, I'd try this...
1- Go to the directory where the graphic file is saved at..
2.- Change its name (leave the actual extension)
3.- Try to upload it again..

I hope it helps..

Regards

cmwynn
10-28-2004, 07:07 PM
This thread is growing faster than I can read. My reaction to people's comments is that we should all go out and buy stock in paper companies! I certainly used lots of paper and threw most of it away. I think I understand one point perspective, am afraid to confuse myself by reading about two and three point. But soon. And I will try Russ's tutorial. I drew lots and lots of boxes with vanishing points.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Oct-2004/29839-Vanishing_point.jjpg.jpg
I thought the set of boxes had to be stacked, so much for reading comprehension. But I did mark the sight line.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Oct-2004/29839-Set_of_Boxesxm.jpg
Exercise 3 was basically copied from the book. (pretend they look like the ones in the book)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Oct-2004/29839-Exercise_3.jpg
I just couldn't get my mind around different sight lines for the chair from last week, so drew one of mine, first putting it up on a table, then standing up to draw it.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Oct-2004/29839-Chairsxm.jpg

g7i7n7a
10-28-2004, 07:50 PM
Hi,
This is just a test.
:( here goes.
gina

g7i7n7a
10-28-2004, 07:51 PM
wooohooooo :clap: :o :o :o
thanks (( Jet)).
regards, gina

sultry
10-28-2004, 08:43 PM
aweeee gina that is beautiful :clap:

JayD
10-28-2004, 08:50 PM
Gina, that is one strange box! :D I am glad you got the problem resolved! :clap: :clap:

Hi, Blah--glad to see you around and thanks for the good advice.

Connie--I like the elevated views of the chairs. The boxes are a good start--there was nothing wrong with stacking the boxes. I should have colored mine as well. :)

JayD
10-28-2004, 08:56 PM
Tortiko--perspective is a tool and you are in control--if you were McGyver it would be your roll of duct tape. A useful tool but you control it. I did not see anything that bothered me about your drawings specifically--did you draw the object first and then try to correct it using perspective?

Think about the drawing process--you do the sketch--get it to where you are aesthetically satisfied and then go back and check it with perspective. never doubt your ability to draw.


A QUICK SHOUT: IF ANY OF YOU START TO FEEL INTIMIDATED BY THIS SUBJECT--WALK AWAY FROM IT FOR A HALF HOUR OR SO AND DO SOMETHING THAT IS LOOSE AND FREE AND EXPRESSES YOURSELF--FEEL FREE TO POST IT TO RELIEVE SOME OF THE PRESSURE AND THEN GO BACK AND TAKE ANOTHR FRESH LOOK. REMEMBER THAT THIS IS ONLY A TOOL--ALSO IN ABOUT THREE DAYS WE WILL HEAD OVER THE HILL AND LOOK AT SOMETHING NEW. YOU FOLKS ARE DOING GREAT!-- :clap: :clap: :clap:

JayD
10-28-2004, 09:14 PM
Resgene, I did not forget about you. :) Great job on the boxes and the calculator phone but I really loved that bird's eye perpsective that you did of a box--I expect to see spider and the Green Goblin hopping about in a battle. Good job!

g7i7n7a
10-28-2004, 11:21 PM
Bonjour,
These are last week's assignments (for those who may be confused :) ) I know it's late and doesn't really matter... but I need closure. -
AND my BOXES.
I'm going to now re-do the chair and the buildings with the perspective "tool" .

gina
I'm adding one more...
Why did I pick such a difficult table? The base is smaller than the table top and it has block feet, so I'm guessing I have to do 2 point for every section individually ...? that is the top, the base and each block of feet, so does that mean 6? I don't know what the heckle I'm talking about... I'm not gonna get into the curved part for now. if you have any tips - feel free. thanks. :(

wetclay
10-28-2004, 11:40 PM
i think i'm going to take you up on break....i just finished reading this whole thread and boy am i confused. I tried some pics today of boxes around the house but didn't really understand what you meant when you said to correct them with perspective. Do i just add the horizon line and a vanishing point and then draw lines from all the corners to the vp? if so, i'll have to try that tomorrow because my brain is fried right now.
cya tomorrow.
jim

Jet
10-29-2004, 03:18 AM
i think i'm going to take you up on break....i just finished reading this whole thread and boy am i confused. I tried some pics today of boxes around the house but didn't really understand what you meant when you said to correct them with perspective. Do i just add the horizon line and a vanishing point and then draw lines from all the corners to the vp? if so, i'll have to try that tomorrow because my brain is fried right now.
cya tomorrow.
jim

Hi Jim !

I believe you are confused, but don't worry, this topic is a mind twister for all of us..

I guess we are supposed to do a freehand drawing from around us -no references-, and then, correct it with perspective...

As you can see, the photo already has the 'camera's eye' perspective, so we would try to copy that, bypassing our own judgement. And wouldn't let us put our creativity in the process....
-Maybe you could use a photo taken after you finish your drawing and compare the two and see how they look..I am not saying that the camera will have the answer, as you can choose any type of perspective to apply to your drawing...
you're the boss, not the glass eyed monster ..lol..

Keep it up, and try drawing a simple object around you, first, after resting a bit of course !! :p

Kind Regards
:cool:

L2isa2
10-29-2004, 05:25 AM
Hi JayD ,

Well I have scribbled and played around with this perspective thingie and this is the exercise four I have come up with !

Still do not think I have it susssed , but would appreciate some C&C on it JayD , please !

Still have the Italian buildings to do with the perspective thingie will do that over the weekend :)

Regards
Lisa

TORTIKO
10-29-2004, 06:07 AM
Thank you for commenting JayD . I tried to draw the table and chairs first but when I added the vp ect I ended up practically redrawing it. :D It took me a while to realize that the vp was off the paper. Today I'm going to try and send a sketch to the weekly drawing thread and I'm not going to worry about the perspective. :D The course is great and I'm hoping that some of it will stick in my numbskull brain !
Rita

wetclay
10-29-2004, 06:45 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Oct-2004/51436-birdhouse.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Oct-2004/51436-pencilSharpener.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Oct-2004/51436-videocassette.jpg

ok, here are the ones i did yesterday. I know that we weren't asked to post the boxes from around the house but i would like some feedback before attempting the kleenex, tv, table, and chair.

the birdhouses: i like A, it seems to be the best of the bunch...but don't know if the bottom front of it seems correct. B is tilted but the perspective is decent IMO. C the roof is oversized, i think?

the pencil sharpener: ugghh, i hated this one. :confused: it never looked "right" to me. any help here would be appreciated.

the videocassette: My first subject of the bunch. A turned out the best and i'm pretty happy with it. B was a disaster, i tried to redo this at least 3 times and couldn't get the straight on edge perspective to look anywhere close to what it should. I think my mind kept giving me the "from above front" view and that's what my hand drew. very frustrating that one. C was somewhat successful, i thing the perspective is good except the right side.

To ask a dumb question. Am i correct in assuming that the opposite sides/edges of an object should always have parallel sides?

i will be attempting the required sketches today.thanks everyone.
blessings,
jim

resgene
10-29-2004, 09:42 AM
Thanks Blah, Gina and Jay. Everyone is doing such good work. This has been a very interesting exercise to do.

Regards,
Michelle.

grimm
10-29-2004, 12:29 PM
I can see I have alot of work to do on perspective!! Have trouble picking out the horizon or eye level I guess. Will keep trying......

g7i7n7a
10-29-2004, 02:02 PM
Jayd,
I hope my last comment didn't sound rude, I was only teasing. :wink2:
I'm discovering you have to be careful how you word things, you could have 5 different people read your statements with 5 different attitudes. :wave:

Grimm, all your stuff looks great to me, not that I know anything, not grimm at all. :) :)

Connie, I like the stacked boxes, I'm inspired to try that.

gina.

JayD
10-29-2004, 02:19 PM
Guys, I am in and out of meetings all day today so if it seems like I might be deserting you--well, I got this job thing they make me do. :D

I will be back with comments for everyone a little later.

Gina, your last comment was "Woohoo!" or something like that. I could just be dense--my wife says I am no sheltie(which are smart dogs) so I might have missed it. Anyway, no offense taken---er--for whatever you said. :)

Hayward
10-29-2004, 03:05 PM
Well.....

I can't seem to STRAIGHTEN my boxes......expecially the largest one...where would I place my VP to get my lines to line up?

Help!
Jo

idcrisis55
10-29-2004, 03:09 PM
Attached is part of Exercise 3 that I've done.

1. line drawing boxes drawn freehand.
2 The next pic is with a couple of the lines corrected and where I started placing the perspective lines.
3. The next one is with the perspective lines drawn.
4. Last is a kleenex box on top of a tv. I didn't draw perspective lines on the tv but can tell it is out of perspective.

I found it more difficult to freehand draw first then do the perspective because I'm not sure if I'm placing the vanishing points in the right place. I gauged the perspective by the lower diagonal line. I think I'm making this harder than it really is.

The other difficult part was knowing how to check the perspective on the diagonal lines (which would be the vertical lines if the box was laying flat) in the elevated box, which makes me think 3-pt. perspective must be used to double check them. I don't know if that is correct or not? I did the tilted box simply to get a different directional view.

Comments & all help appreciated :). Now to catch up on the thread that is growing by leaps and bounds.

Ann

JayD
10-29-2004, 03:18 PM
Jo, take a look at Anns diagram that she just posted (nice job Ann) Each object has its own perspective--if you go back and look at Barb's Borg Boxes you will see that they can share a common vanishing point BUT in your case where the boxes are stacked or leaning you are more likely then not going to have different vanishing points as Ann's diagram clearly illustrates.

Hayward
10-29-2004, 03:53 PM
Hi Jay,

.....not lookin' too good here...but I tried.
Excercise 4

Jo

thanks Jay - reviewing Anns post - I will redraw them..jo

JayD
10-29-2004, 04:23 PM
couple of things: napkin box looks good--I think my wife buys that brand. Where is your horizon line for the table and the vanishing point--it looks like the vanishing point is shooting in toward the viewer or did you turn the paper over for more space?

Somthing we have not talked about here and you just hit upon is the case of this particular televison--the TV you have drawn is actually more then one geometric shape--can you spot them and then correct the perspective--everybody is welcome to jump in. Hint: its in the back.

Still good, Jo--it is looking good.

L2isa2
10-29-2004, 04:55 PM
Hi Every one ,

Wow this thread is bombing along so fast and everyone is looking good :D

Here is my exercise 4 and some practicing I have done C&C please and is much appreciated .


Regards
Lisa

Hayward
10-29-2004, 05:03 PM
Box redo -

is this better (hopefully I followed Ann's sketches)

Jo

idcrisis55
10-29-2004, 05:17 PM
Thanks JayD! I'm learning so much from all the work that has been posted plus the comments being passed back and forth. Great thread!

I can see the difference Hayward.

Ann

wetclay
10-29-2004, 07:03 PM
no comments on my pics...boo hoo. maybe i should practice more?

question...with the boxes do you draw the largest side first and then do the perspective lines to line up the rest of the sides or do you draw the whole box and then adjust them to fit the horizon/vp? it would seem that drawing the whole box would be counter productive but that is coming from a rookie and what do rookies know.

It would really help me if someone could post a series of pics of the steps they take to get to the finished piece. anyone....please.....with sugar on top :)
thanks

JayD
10-29-2004, 08:36 PM
Wet, here--see if this helps:

Follow these steps to create a cube in perspective (see also figure C)

a. Draw a rectangle or a square anywhere on your paper. This is the front of your cube..

b. Establish your horizon line (your eye level) and lightly draw it on the paper (you can also just do this in your head as many of us are prone to do).

c. Pick you vanishing point.

d. Connect the lines running from each of the edged of the Square or Rectangle to the vanishing point.

e. Add lines parallel to the front of the cubes along the lines running to the vanishing point (see figure C

Foil
10-29-2004, 08:39 PM
Somthing we have not talked about here and you just hit upon is the case of this particular televison--the TV you have drawn is actually more then one geometric shape--can you spot them and then correct the perspective--everybody is welcome to jump in. Hint: its in the back..
Triangle.... but I'm not going to pretend to know how to draw it in perspective.

idcrisis55
10-29-2004, 08:49 PM
This is a small, wheeled table I use when I'm painting or drawing to hold extra stuff. The images are as follows:

1. Table
2. Perspective lines on the table using the computer
3. Should the perspective on the table be corrected like it is in this image?

I'm finding it hard to judge if it is drawn in perspective.

Thanks,
Ann

JayD
10-29-2004, 09:34 PM
the stand is basically three objects that I can see--two cubes and a cylinder. We have not covered cylinders but again, consider placing the top and bottom objects inside and cube and correcting to the cube's perspective. You are on the right track though.

That is fair, Foil--triangles will be coverted later on.

idcrisis55
10-29-2004, 09:50 PM
Thanks JayD, I'll practice putting an object inside a cube. I haven't tried that yet. :)

Ann

Cathie Jones
10-29-2004, 11:40 PM
Finding time for drawing has been nearly impossible this week, so my submissions are few. Tomorrow I have to do a PageMaker chapter - and we'll be gone all day Sunday.

I did several plain boxes, but am not posting them. These are just some objects that were where I was when I needed them. I know I need more perspective work, but will have to practice it along with the next lessons . . . as always, C&C please.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Oct-2004/23460-perspective_102904.jpg

JayD
10-30-2004, 01:38 AM
I've involved myself in two other project plus business stuff and I am acting tonight as a costume assistent while my daughter sews a dress from scratch so I sympathize--I'm not going to get much done either. Just note and be respectful of perspective as you do the upcoming projects. As Jet,I think, pointed out, once you learn it, will become like riding a bicycle and will become something that is more instinct then formulae.

Blah
10-30-2004, 05:56 AM
I can see I have alot of work to do on perspective!! Have trouble picking out the horizon or eye level I guess. Will keep trying......


All three objects are well drawn and, to me, the perspective aspect looks well brought out and correct for the table and the tv. The kleenex box appears to be more in isometric than in perspective.

For an object like a rectangular box to appear in perspective, the part of the box that is farther away from the viewer should be smaller than the nearer part. In an isometric representation this does not happen.

Blah

Blah
10-30-2004, 06:22 AM
Attached is part of Exercise 3 that I've done.

1. line drawing boxes drawn freehand.
2 The next pic is with a couple of the lines corrected and where I started placing the perspective lines.
3. The next one is with the perspective lines drawn.
4. Last is a kleenex box on top of a tv. I didn't draw perspective lines on the tv but can tell it is out of perspective.

I found it more difficult to freehand draw first then do the perspective because I'm not sure if I'm placing the vanishing points in the right place. I gauged the perspective by the lower diagonal line. I think I'm making this harder than it really is.

The other difficult part was knowing how to check the perspective on the diagonal lines (which would be the vertical lines if the box was laying flat) in the elevated box, which makes me think 3-pt. perspective must be used to double check them. I don't know if that is correct or not? I did the tilted box simply to get a different directional view.

Comments & all help appreciated :). Now to catch up on the thread that is growing by leaps and bounds.

Ann

Ann...Your freehand drawing looks good to me.

When you start drawing perspective lines, if the boxes are in one group, I would expect the perspective for the oddly placed elements (or objects placed at an angle to the main object) to be worked out by mentally fitting them into a transparent larger box, working out the perspective for the larger box as a guide, and from that deriving the smaller, real objects.

One goes through these steps if drawing a perspective view scientifically or mathematically is the main objective. Much of the time this is done intuitively with an understanding of the main principles.

Your kleenex box looks fine, and the tv as you have mentioned is not right. The front of the tv is drawn as though it is in single point perspective, while the side is in two point perspective. If you would like to you can set it right by correcting the front of the tv alone to two point perspective.

Blah

bjcpaints
10-30-2004, 08:31 AM
:) Just stopping in to make sure I am on target with this weeks exercises. I am having trouble reducing my scanned drawings to post so will wait for my hubby to help with that and post them tomorrow. Everyone is doing a great job with their drawings here. I know its a busy time of year and I really appreciate the input and direction from everyone involved with this. THANKS!
Barbara
ps Thought I'd try a portrait of Mr. De Reyna for extra credit - He is pictured inside the dust jacket of the 1972 hardcover version I acquired for $5. via Amazon. Well, maybe at the end of the course....

JayD
10-30-2004, 09:37 AM
Well, I think you will be relieved about the next few classes--very simple assignments but labor intensive--in other words, practice, practice, practice--perspective optional...

TORTIKO
10-30-2004, 09:38 AM
Hi everyone,
This is my chair from a different horizon. Please could you give me some C&C as I'm not sure if I am doing it right.
Thanks
Rita

idcrisis55
10-30-2004, 09:47 AM
Hi Blah, thanks for your comments and help. I'm struggling with putting the object inside a cube. I practiced it last night with the table. I will keep on until I understand it better.

Also, I forgot to mention that the top swivels on the table I drew so it was not squared up to the base lol.

Ann

JayD
10-30-2004, 09:51 AM
I like the attempt at the viewpoint. When setting your perspective look closely at the chair and then break it down into shapes--in this case there are two cubes--one stacked on top of the other--the cubes should be placed individual into perspective. I was reading a post to Stoney by Deb Leger in the class 1 thread and she mentioned turning the picture upside down--try that so that you are not see the chair but, instead, looking at the geometric shapes, then lightly work out the cubes and try to put those in perspective and THEN correct your chair accordingly. :)

Blah
10-30-2004, 10:19 AM
CJ....Your kleenex box, lunch box, and refrigerator are all drawn correctly in perspective. The first two in two point perspective and the last in single point perspective.

The pencil sharpener drawing (in terms of perspective) is not correctly constructed. What you should do is to draw the outline of a box (just large enough to hold the sharpener) in either single or two point perpective as seen from slightly above the box. This will require you to position the horizon line (and vanishing points) above the box and not as you have done for the fridge.

Once you do this you can draw the top of the sharpener on the top surface of the box...you should remember not to use the entire top surface since the sharpener is wider in the middle....and you will end up with drawing more or less like what you have done but slightly more accurate in terms of perspective

If the base of the sharpener is also visible (without the shavings that you have shown in your drawing) you will notice that the bottom is not identical to the top because you see more of it than the top.

Blah

Blah
10-30-2004, 10:30 AM
Hi Blah, thanks for your comments and help. I'm struggling with putting the object inside a cube. I practiced it last night with the table. I will keep on until I understand it better.

Also, I forgot to mention that the top swivels on the table I drew so it was not squared up to the base lol.

Ann

Your drawing of the table with the swiveling top is very good and I think quite accurate. But while drawing the perspective lines to show how you have worked out the perspective, you have drawn them correctly for the top alone.

For the base you have drawn the perspective lines for single point perspective. This would have been okay if the base had been like an x. But in your picture the base is like a plus sign. You should therefore draw your perspective lines to two vanishing points, both of which will come on the same horizon line as the one on which the VPs for the top are located.

Blah

Blah
10-30-2004, 10:37 AM
Jim (Wet Clay)....I have to break off for a while. Will be back shortly with what I hope will be of help to you.
Blah

Cathie Jones
10-30-2004, 10:42 AM
Thanks for the C&C, Blah. Actually, I did put the pencil sharpener in a box, but didn't use perspective on the box, just on the pencil sharpener. It's very small and was sitting on the table in front of me, so I was seeing all of the top. If I get a break later I'll try it again using your instructions and see what happens . . . :D Need to re-do the boat, too, but that may not happen this lesson.

wetclay
10-30-2004, 10:46 AM
thanks blah, i'm really struggling with this.

djdedman
10-30-2004, 10:52 AM
WOW! Maybe I should go sit in the corner with a dunce hat on.
Remembering a phrase one of my teachers told years and years and years ago. :D
"There is no such word as can't, you just try and try again"
Wish I could find her now so I could tell her I can't do this perspective! :mad: But I'm still trying. :D
Whew!
Jackie
p.s. Wonder if she ever attempted perspective? :wave:

idcrisis55
10-30-2004, 10:58 AM
Blah, I think I understand what you are saying about the base. The lines are running parallel but not converging. I can see that now :), thanks!

I was sitting quite close to the table when I drew it, would that affect our perspective in that the converging lines would be much less noticeable?

mhimeswc
10-30-2004, 12:46 PM
I'm having a major problem with the boxes exercise. I posted some "generic" boxes. I drew an imaginary eye level, some imaginary vanishing points, and made imaginary boxes. Well, now I'm drawing real boxes that I found in my kitchen.

I drew them by hand and then attempted to check the perspective. How exactly do I do that? I'm sure they are not in correct perspective, but I think they might be close. The first two, a kitchen trash bag box and a tissue box standing on end, were done in my 9x12 sketchbook. The eye level as well as vanishing points would be well off the paper. (You people must be drawing really tiny). So I drew the last one, a somewhat square box from Slim Fast, on my 14x18 newsprint. Since the eye level was pretty well above the box, I drew the box near the bottom of the paper.

How do I check the perspective? Where would I put the eye level line? I know it's above the box, but how far? Do I just guess? Do I assume that the bottom lines are correct and draw lines to find a vanishing point? What if they aren't correct? Do I extend all my lines to see if any of them ever meet? Someone help me here. I'm thoroughly confused.

Michelle

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Oct-2004/20035-box1.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Oct-2004/20035-box2.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Oct-2004/20035-box3.jpg

JayD
10-30-2004, 01:14 PM
This is just an observation but you are drawing the boxes from sight and are not thinking of them as individual cubes. Here is one of your squares converted into a cube. Follow the lines and see if you can determine the perspective. Hint: Think 2 point perspective. Go back and convert the other objects (boxes to cubes). See if this helps. Look at some of the other posting of the cubes and see if you can duplicate the effort. Let me know if you are still having problems. :)

QUICK TIP: IF YOU ARE DRAWING AN OBJECT AND PART OF THE OBJECT IS OBSTRUCTED THE OBSTRUCTED PART SILL EXISTS. WHEN YOU LIGHTLY SKETCH ALWAYS DRAW THE HIDDEN PARTS SO THAT YOU CAN SEE WHERE THEY OCCUR--THEN WHEN YOU RESTATE YOUR LINES YOU CAN ELIMINATE BY ERASURE THOSE LINES NOT MEANT TO BE SEEN.

idcrisis55
10-30-2004, 01:15 PM
Hi Michelle, I'm not sure I can offer any help but here is what I do.

I draw the vertical line the height I think it should be.
I draw the horizon line where I want it to be
Then I draw the bottom side line at the angle I think it should be until it meets the horizon line
Then draw the top line aiming toward the VP at the horizon line.
Repeat it on the other side, just like in the box exercises.
Next determine the length of each side and draw the vertical lines.

Attached is an example I did last night that shows drawing the cube then doing the perspective lines. Maybe that will help. If it isn't correct maybe someone will let me know.

To check the perspective on a drawing, I start where the bottom diagonal meets the first vertical lightly drawing the vanishing point lines, then repeat at the top diagonal to see if the two converge.

Ann

JayD
10-30-2004, 01:30 PM
I don't know if we are seeing the actual size the paper is on but it also looks like your vanishing points may extend off of the paper as well.

mhimeswc
10-30-2004, 02:23 PM
Ann and JayD, I was drawing by sight, and not only would my vanishing points be off the paper, but since my boxes were on the table in front of me, my eye level would have been off the paper too. I would have to draw a very tiny box to get the eye level and vp's on the paper.

Thanks, JayD, I forgot about the invisible parts of the box/cube. Maybe that would have helped. I'm totally clueless about this stuff, and have been trying to learn it since high school. (I'm almost 60 now). I'll try some more box drawings later. I'm not ready to move on to TV sets and refrigerators and all yet.

I also finally did my chair. I did not do it as part of the perspective lesson, I just drew a rectangle around it and used negative shapes and sight measuring to draw it. If and when I understand how to do it in perspective, I will try drawing it again.

Oh, by the way, I realize that I forgot to draw the back left leg of the chair. Didn't see that until I was sizing it in PHotoshop. :(

Michelle

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Oct-2004/20035-ChairDrawing.jpg

mhimeswc
10-30-2004, 02:33 PM
Hi Michelle, I'm not sure I can offer any help but here is what I do.

I draw the vertical line the height I think it should be.
I draw the horizon line where I want it to be
Ann

That's part of the problem, Ann. I don't know where I want the horizon line to be. I know it's above the top of the box, probably so much above the top of the box that it's not even on the paper. :( That's why I didn't know how to check my perspective. I could have drawn the horizon and vp's first but JayD had said that when doing a sketch we should draw our object first, and then apply the perspective rules to check it. That's what I was trying to do.

Michelle

Mary Woodul
10-30-2004, 02:53 PM
Hi JayD, here are some of my drawings but I think there are things that I still don't understand. I don't know how you determine the base of the table, where the legs stand. On the TV set, I dont think I got it right, and I didn't do the chair because I thought I had to change the vanishing point also, and I got all confused. I just read the instruccions again and I will try later to do it. Some of us jump into painting without knowing the basic rules of drawing and this class is opening a whole new world for me. What dedication you and Jet have given this class. Thank you again:D

Jet
10-30-2004, 03:09 PM
I don't know where I want the horizon line to be. I know it's above the top of the box, probably so much above the top of the box that it's not even on the paper. :( That's why I didn't know how to check my perspective. I could have drawn the horizon and vp's first but JayD had said that when doing a sketch we should draw our object first, and then apply the perspective rules to check it. That's what I was trying to do.

Michelle

Michelle, JayD has given guidelines , but they're not rules carved in stone; Try doing it your way, and after a while you will get the hang of it , enough to do it either way...

Remember many masters planned their paintings by placing the horizon and vps first and then worked their drawings around them, concentrating on composition and shape/shadow play...

Feel free to start from the end and then do it backwards once in a "daily"...
:D
You'll be pleasantly surprised by the results...

Thanks to rules, we have something to break every day !! :)

Kind Regards
:wave:

Blah
10-30-2004, 03:26 PM
I was sitting quite close to the table when I drew it, would that affect our perspective in that the converging lines would be much less noticeable?

Yes, very much so. It is also less noticeable when the vanishing point (or points) is far away with respect to your drawing. For example if your drawing is about 6" x 6" and your vanishing points are 2 feet away on either side.
In fact artists who do perspective renderings of buildings sometimes deliberately choose to have their vanishing points close to the building to dramatise the (perspective) image.

Blah

Blah
10-30-2004, 03:51 PM
Jim...I am attaching a couple of sketches with notes on them. I hope they will be helpful.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Oct-2004/31572-Birdhouse_A.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Oct-2004/31572-Videocassette_B.jpg

Jay's advise is to do your sketch and then correct for perspective. That is what I have tried to do with your sketches of the birdhouse and the video cassette, explaining the process step by step.

Blah

JayD
10-30-2004, 03:56 PM
Michelle, you are doing fine--when you do your drawing you should already have your horizon line and vanishing points fixed--not on paper but in your head and YOU DO--that is the scary part--translating it to paper is what makes it seem difficult.

In come cases the vanishing points DO disappear of the paper--some people have mention this before. Here is a

QUICK TIP: IF YOU THINK THAT YOUR VANISHING POINT WILL APPEAR BEYOND YOUR PAPER, TAKE A PIECE OF BLANK PAPER AND PLACE IT UNDER YOUR DRAWING. SLIDE OUT THIS PAPER LIKE A TELESCOPE OR EXTENSION OF YOUR DRAWING AND THEN TAKE YOUR RULER AND LOCATE YOUR VANISHING POINT--YOU CAN THEN MAKE THE PROPER CORRECTIONS TO YOUR DRAWINGS.

To Quote Dr. Zachary Smith "OH! The Pain...The Pain!"

JayD
10-30-2004, 03:57 PM
Blah--those are perfect--thank you for the valuable contribution. :clap:

Blah
10-30-2004, 04:12 PM
That's part of the problem, Ann. I don't know where I want the horizon line to be. I know it's above the top of the box, probably so much above the top of the box that it's not even on the paper. :( That's why I didn't know how to check my perspective. I could have drawn the horizon and vp's first but JayD had said that when doing a sketch we should draw our object first, and then apply the perspective rules to check it. That's what I was trying to do.

Michelle


Michelle...Please look at my earlier post on this page. It might help you to understand this better.

The horizon line is for you to choose. For the boxes that you have drawn that has to be above the box, since the top of the box is visible. It could be anywhere around one to one and a half box height above the box (my suggestion only) . As you keep trying this out your judgement will improve.

Once you have drawn your box and you check your perspective, you would normally retain some of your lines and change some of them to get the correct perspective.

It is for you to decide which part of your drawing you would prefer to keep and which part you will change to get your perspective correct.

So, if you choose to retain the base of your box, those are the two lines that you will extend to get your vanishing points and any corrections that follow will be to the top of the box.

Similarly, if you choose to retain the topmost edge of the box you will project them to get your vanishing points and then the other edges will have to be corrected.

And by the way, your chair is very beautifully drawn.

Blah

Cathie Jones
10-30-2004, 04:47 PM
Thanks, Blah. Good visual aids! Gotta finish this *$(#*$ PageMaker chapter so I can go try it again!!

JayD
10-30-2004, 04:51 PM
Michelle, you have ALREADY determined the horizon line instinctively--your eye and your brain are constantly determining and adjusting the horizon line.

QUICK TIP: THE HORIZON LINE IS YOUR EYE LEVEL. WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE BOX WHERE DOES THE EYE LEVEL OCCUR? THAT IS WHERE YOUR HORIZON LINE WILL BE.


Jet, if you are out there would you mind coming up with something for quick tips that ISNT shouting--my throat is starting to get hoarse. :D

mhimeswc
10-30-2004, 05:18 PM
Michelle, you have ALREADY determined the horizon line instinctively--your eye and your brain are constantly determining and adjusting the horizon line.

QUICK TIP: THE HORIZON LINE IS YOUR EYE LEVEL. WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE BOX WHERE DOES THE EYE LEVEL OCCUR? THAT IS WHERE YOUR HORIZON LINE WILL BE.




Thanks for being so patient, JayD. Here's what I guess I don't get. I'm sitting at the kitchen table and the box is on the table. I am looking down at the box. So, my eye level is where I would look if I were looking straight ahead, right? That's WAY above the box. Maybe I should clean off the other end of the table so I can put the boxes farther away. I have my mat cutter, several pieces of mat board, mat knife, wire cutters, pens and pencils, masking tape, pieces of foam core, (and who knows what else is buried under there) at the far end of the table. So my boxes are sort of close to me. I'll keep practicing.

Michelle

daniellat
10-30-2004, 05:41 PM
I have spent hours on this this afternoon, and am off to the hospital to get first aid for all the bumps and bruises on my forehead from banging my head on the wall!! This stuff is impossible. I want to meet the Machiavellian monster who decided all this stuff, and then beat him to death with my T-square!! Have read the book twice. Have read the lesson plan, 3 times. Got through Exercise 3. Poorly, but through it. And am now going to drink myself under the table so I can get a different eye level point of view!! :evil:

Will finish up and post tomorrow!!

Daniella

JayD
10-30-2004, 05:51 PM
Danielle,I am currently building a time machine in my basement and I am heading back to ancient greece to start a bar fight with Pythagoras and his gang. You are more then welcome to come and anybody else.

Seriously, I was just on pm with one of our compadres and next week I am going to be asking you to toss all these rules and dots and t-squares and lines and just draw loose and free. After this class, you all deserve it--BUUUUUT there will be a twist--which I think you all will like.

Perspective is an afterthought. If you want to confine yourself to rules then make it your life but in Jay's world, rules are for learning and then bending.

I don't want any of you to feel that this is being forced upon you --I just want you to be developing an awareness that this is there and is for you to use. Many of you are eyeballers--possessed of unique instincts--I do not want you to lose any of that---SO, like Freud's famous Cigar--It is only a cigar! Smoke it if you wish or don't --with no dire consequences either way.

mhimeswc
10-30-2004, 06:16 PM
Thanks for making my laugh, Daniella. :D :D :D :D :D
I must be taking this stuff to seriously. I really do hope that it eventually sinks in though.

JayD, make room for me in that time machine.

Michelle

Jet
10-30-2004, 06:29 PM
Hi Guys, just got here...went to a motorcycle Daredevils event, luckily there were no freaky accidents this time.. :)
_____________

No shouting? me? DO I EVER ?... :D ...

next has been done whispering......

I have noticed that most of members are trying the 2 point perspective as the "important" topic,therefore all the headaches...
May i remind you that the most dramatic and spectacular paintings were done with 1 point perspective, and many great effects can be done with this "easy" technique, that many have put aside in order to go to the 2 point perspective

Please follow this Link (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2860380#post2860380)...
There is an excellent exercise for 1 point perspective that (after doing it) will clear any cobwebs we could have left in our brains about perspective...

It is a must for anyone trying to understand this elusive topic...As it all happens inside a single room, it could be a room of your own house for better understanding of the exercise...

I hope we all can take a shot at it before trying to go further...

..I am going to give it a try once again... ;)

Hope you find it useful !!
See ya later
:wave:

Judi1957
10-30-2004, 06:52 PM
JayD,
Back from a week of ....you know the word.
PC virus is fixed, thanks to the IT people at work.
Had to go to Washington DC yesterday, after a full Friday and week at work. Had to get up at 2:30 AM in DC, the room phone didn't work, the coffee pot didn't function correctly and I got my hand really scalded. THEN I had to survey all day, just got back at 5:00 this evening, only to find a note from my hubby saying he called the hotel and they said no one by my name was registered. Not good when you are on a trip with a co-worker who is a man. Boy did I tell Holiday Inn a thing, maybe two!
Sitting down now with a drink (NOT WATER) (it's only 6:45PM) and reading thru the past few days of posts. This is better!!! Being home!!!
Anyway, I do seem to vent a lot. I feel better. Looks like a comedy in print. Making myself laugh.
I had a post I had forgot to put in with my last, and that is it. Do you have any more assignments as tomorrow I will be a chillin'?
Judi
Now I'm not sure my attachment went thru. I am glad we get an extra hour of sleep tonite. (spring forward-fall back)

JayD
10-30-2004, 07:01 PM
Judi, sorry about your hand and those are dead on. I have no problems with venting on this thread. I get to learn a lot about the artist and it warms up what could be an otherwise cold and unattractive forum/thread. These look really good--you can clearly see the application of perspective---

You have spent the week creating to feel free to chill on the seventh day. I think you will like the next assignments--as I am banning all perspective talk from the next class--just so we can cut loose and have a little bit of fun. :)

Judi1957
10-30-2004, 07:14 PM
Thanks Jay,
I am happy to be here in your class!!!!
But, you know, I like perspective.
As there is no more 'work' here today, I will rest, as it is needed. Falling over...!
SLEEP...NOW!
Good-nite,(I cannot seem to attach my wave, some setting I guess)
Judi

JayD
10-30-2004, 07:38 PM
Judi, I don't like perspective--I DO have a healthy and hearty respect for it and I believe that it is an extremely important element in art. 'nuff from me. :)

djdedman
10-30-2004, 07:45 PM
ok here is exercise 2,
hope I used the uploader correctly.
Should I practice more on this or go on to rest of the lesson?
Jackie

JayD
10-30-2004, 08:31 PM
We should all be practicing more but in this case Judi, they look really good. Go ahead and move forward. :)

Jet
10-30-2004, 09:08 PM
I guess there was nobody interested in doing the exercises for 1 point perspective, and knowing how, a lot more important is doing the 1 pointers right, I have done a quick take on the exercise shown at the last link posted....

Here it is, i started without rulers but had to go over the lines again with the help of a ruler; It is not a perfect drawing , but good enough to illustrate the concept...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Oct-2004/27782-Room-1p.jpg

I'd recommend doing just 1 point perspective for a whole week, before going on toward the 2 point approach....
....Just a free tip..

Regards :)

JayD
10-30-2004, 09:29 PM
Jet, I'm not going to extend the class another week but the next class DOES cover the subject of cubes again--there will be a lot of drawing without perspective but I will NOT discourage anyone who wants to practice 1 point.

djdedman
10-30-2004, 09:34 PM
Thanks Jet, I am printing it to practice. Sorry I'm such a dunce. :wink2:
By the way JayD, if you were answering my post, my name is Jackie not Judi. If you were replying to someone else, my apology. :D
You guys are the greatest for helping like you do.
Jackie

JayD
10-30-2004, 09:47 PM
Sorry, Jackie :D There are a lot of artist to keep straight. First mistake I ever made! :D

djdedman
10-30-2004, 09:50 PM
Thats ok JayD, with everything going on, I find I forget it myself. :D
First mistake for you, wow. :cat:
Jackie

Jet
10-30-2004, 10:41 PM
JayD, Hi!
I believe you must be fed-up with 'P' ( i won't say the 'P' word again)..lol..

I just did the drawing in the exercise because i hadn't done any drawings for this lesson, and the tip is for those who are having too much trouble with 2PP, so they can practice at their own pace in their own time...:cool:
--

Jackie, I'm glad you found it useful, if you need further assistance, you may PM me anytime... :)

I believe this thread will remain open, -same as Lesson #1's - so you can go ahead and post your 'P' drawings here too..

Thanks

HaPPy 'P's :p

Regards :wave:

Mary Woodul
10-30-2004, 10:51 PM
Hi Jay D and Jet. My post with my drawings is in the previous page I believe, and I know you guys are swarmed with questions and work but I did ask a dumb question on that post. I got very confused with my table as far as what determines the distance from on leg to the other. Do you cube the whole thing. I think you had already said something like that and please forgive me with the hassle :evil:

mhimeswc
10-30-2004, 11:23 PM
There's no such thing as a dumb question, Mary. (Besides, I believe I have asked more dumb questions than you have).

Michelle

Jet
10-31-2004, 12:31 AM
Hi Jay D and Jet. My post with my drawings is in the previous page I believe, and I know you guys are swarmed with questions and work but I did ask a dumb question on that post. I got very confused with my table as far as what determines the distance from on leg to the other. Do you cube the whole thing. I think you had already said something like that and please forgive me with the hassle :evil:
Mary,
The only dumb question is the one that is never asked... :cool:

Besides, this is a very important question..

What i do to determine the dimensions in a given object is to enclose it inside a "room" where i 'place' the object in question.
That way it's easier to place the depth of the object, according to the room's measures.

This is an empiric way of doing it, as there are some complex formulas for getting to an "exact" and correct depth.

Some artists have different ways of 'altering' these measurements to increase or lessen importance in the painting..

i can draw an example if you need it.

feel free to ask anything

Regards :wave:

Jet
10-31-2004, 03:09 AM
Mary, and the gang !

Please take a look at this link... A tireless tutor !! (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2861805#post2861805) :cool:

You'll love it !! :)

Regards

idcrisis55
10-31-2004, 08:54 AM
I could have drawn the horizon and vp's first but JayD had said that when doing a sketch we should draw our object first, and then apply the perspective rules to check it. That's what I was trying to do.

Michelle

I find it harder too, Michelle to draw the object first and then drawing the VP line on the drawing to correct it. That is why I place my ruler along the bottom angle of the object that was drawn freehand and draw a VP line, then draw the vertical line, then I draw the top angle and hope the two angled lines converge. If they do not then one of my angles is incorrect. I hope this makes sense and isn't confusing you or anyone else more. Think I'll just be quiet and learn. :D

I'm trying to learn to draw the cube first, put the object inside it, like JayD said, but that will take much for practice for me.

Ann


Yes, very much so. It is also less noticeable when the vanishing point (or points) is far away with respect to your drawing. For example if your drawing is about 6" x 6" and your vanishing points are 2 feet away on either side.
In fact artists who do perspective renderings of buildings sometimes deliberately choose to have their vanishing points close to the building to dramatise the (perspective) image.

Blah

Thanks Blah, what you said makes sense because it is hard to find the vanishing point when it is extended way past the paper.

Ann

daniellat
10-31-2004, 09:08 AM
Ok boys and girls, this is it for the week. Except for round 2 of the chair. My head hurts, and this is NOT a good week. :evil:
Here goes nuttin'!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Oct-2004/46985-Drawing_101-_lesson_2_001a.jpg

So this one needs a little explaining - when I asked Jack (My SO) for a box of kleenex, this is what I got, so this is what YOU got!! :evil:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Oct-2004/46985-Drawing_101-_lesson_2_003a.jpg

Sorry these images are so pale, but I couldn't draw them loudly - too much of a hangover from getting myuself under the table!!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Oct-2004/46985-Drawing_101-_lesson_2_004a.jpg

Bash away, folks. I am tough, I can take it. :(

Daniella

Mary Woodul
10-31-2004, 09:12 AM
Mary, and the gang !

Please take a look at this link... A tireless tutor !! (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2861805#post2861805) :cool:

You'll love it !! :)

Regards
Thank you so much Jet, I had wondered in your previous diagram if that was the way, but now I see it in this link and it becomes much clearer and easier than just letting it float. Muchas gracias, amigo :wink2:

JayD
10-31-2004, 10:35 AM
Attention: Due To Unforseen Circumstances, I Am Extending Class 2 For One More Week As Has Been Suggested By Jet. Keep Practicing And I Know That You All Will Do Well. Regards--jay

Deb Leger
10-31-2004, 10:55 AM
Finally, I have some exercises to post! Here's number 2.

Jay, I'm glad this is going to be extended. I think we'll all benefit from an extra week of the p-word.

I did the horizon line with a ruler and also the lines stretching to the corners of the cubes, but for the cubes themselves, I prefer to do them freehand. Better practice. :D

Deb

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Oct-2004/11775-ex2.JPG

Deb Leger
10-31-2004, 11:14 AM
A question.............

This may have been covered, I can't remember but......

Your horizon line does not have to be the actual horizon line in the painting/drawing, right? For instance, in the church drawing below, the horizon line used for perspective is not the same horizon line used for the grass and trees. Is this okay? Or is this incorrect? Is it an error that will stick out like a sore thumb??? :confused:

tia, Deb

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Oct-2004/11775-church.JPG

JayD
10-31-2004, 11:18 AM
You did the perspective on the building--how does the perspective on the road figure into this picture. Redo the convergence and see if that answers your questions.

bjcpaints
10-31-2004, 11:29 AM
Here are my offerings for this week. I'm glad we are getting a 1 wk reprieve to practice - I need it!
Barbara
Ooops - I had 2 other drawings - the cieling fan from the perspective of underneath it and the cubes (I did rectangles last week). These 2 are still too large. I had a lesson in sizing these to post but I need to go back to class for that apparently. :(

sultry
10-31-2004, 12:33 PM
Hi Jay & Class,

our TV is not easy to draw because it is incased. So I decided to sketch it from the bed.

After I scanned this, I can see where I made the bed post too large on the right ( no ruler at the time ) all lines were free hand elbow drawn.

Mary Woodul
10-31-2004, 01:04 PM
Thank You Jay, that will give me a chance to read the lesson the right way and also the pages on the book and do the chair.

rainboes
10-31-2004, 01:43 PM
Thanks for the extension. I haven't posted yet but I have been working and working on all of the projects. I think that this chapter is very important so that another week to work on it all is great.

I know you all know this already but let me repeat how much can be learned from reading all of the messages. It is more than I had ever dreamed possible. It is here to learn from and it is up to me to take advantage of it.

Thanks to all of you who have been so generous with your time and knowledge :clap: :clap: :music: :D :) :clap: :clap: :clap:

Bobbye

Blah
10-31-2004, 01:52 PM
Jay...here are my attempts at this week's assignment.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Oct-2004/31572-Week_2_Table_1.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Oct-2004/31572-Week_2_Table_2.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Oct-2004/31572-Week_2_Table_3.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Oct-2004/31572-Week_2_Monitor_.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Oct-2004/31572-Week_2_Study.jpg

Glad to see that you are extending this lesson by a week.
Blah

JayD
10-31-2004, 01:54 PM
AND SPEAKING OF THIS--HERE IS AN ANNOUNCEMENT:


Many of you know that I had to suspend my activity for about a week and a half after suffering a collapse due to physical exhaustion. I want to make certain that this does not happen again (I am kind of selfish that way} but, collectively, we have all developed a valualbe resource and the numbers certainly prove that coupled with the fact that we have the full support of the the moderators and guides.

SO

I will continue to lead the classes but this thing is getting big and I would like to share the wealth with others who would be interested. I want to set up a "substitute" system where I can step back on ocassion and regain my objectivity and get a little learnin' time in myself. Here are the guidelines:

1. Subs are voluntary (no forced labor :D )

2. You pick the class

3. Rudy de Reyna's course outline must be followed

4. you may add aditional stuff to discourage the yawn yawns.

5. You can substitute but if you do not wish to write the lesson, I will be more then happy to write it for you.

We've proven the value of this resource now it is time to share as there are some great leaders here already. Please pm or email me directly if you wish to volunteer as a substitute. I will always be here to lend a hand and I will still be leading the majority of the classes but I would just plain stupid if I did not take advantage of the richness of the talent contained here. Let me know. :)

JayD
10-31-2004, 01:58 PM
Blah, these look very good--and this class is so important that it would be a sin not to--it was making me seasick but you guys are worth it. I like the television--it lines up perfectly but I have a question--I cannot tell very well but in your opinion should the air vents in the cathode tube in the back of the television also be in perspective. What do you think?

Deb Leger
10-31-2004, 02:15 PM
Hi Jay,

Just pm'd you! If we all pitch in and help out, then we won't have to worry about you working yourself into the grave over this!

Here's some more homework. The bottle of gum arabic started out as a cube with some tubes and circles attached. The wood brush box gave me the most grief, because I kept getting to the point where I knew it should be done 2-point, but I was bound and bent on doing it in one-point.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Oct-2004/11775-ex3_2.JPG http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Oct-2004/11775-ex3_3.JPG

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Oct-2004/11775-ex3_4.JPG http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Oct-2004/11775-ex3_5.JPG

JayD
10-31-2004, 02:15 PM
Rainboes--Thank you for the appreciation--this is an extraordinary class because it is a class of peers--they are making the class what it is.

sultry, I love the hands and feet and in ONE point perspective no less. Bravo. I would not worry too much about the largness of the one side. The overall composition is just to fun to look at.

Barb, are we going to get to see the ceiling fan? I have a house full of them--I think I could build myself a fleet of helicoptors with them. :D Did you have any problems lining up the chair in perspective?

JayD
10-31-2004, 02:18 PM
Thanks, Deb! I would never have thought of the glasses case but that is a good idea. Hey, I pulled out my bottle of gum arabic--handy stuff--did you see beyond the bottle when you drew it--the bottle is actually a cube with a cylinder sitting on top--I noticed that one shoulder slopes down a notch. What do you think?

Blah
10-31-2004, 02:19 PM
Blah, these look very good--and this class is so important that it would be a sin not to--it was making me seasick but you guys are worth it. I like the television--it lines up perfectly but I have a question--I cannot tell very well but in your opinion should the air vents in the cathode tube in the back of the television also be in perspective. What do you think?

You are right, I checked...it should, and it doesn't in my drawing. I did not observe it closely enough while drawing.

Incidentally I drew a computer monitor instead of a tv since the chair in my study is more comfortable :D

Blah

daniellat
10-31-2004, 02:37 PM
JayD - no class is worth ruining your health over. You have done a fantastic job, and I appreciate all you have done. And, in advance, I thank anyone else who has the uuumph to step up to the plate and help us beginners.

Bless you all.

Daniella

JayD
10-31-2004, 03:03 PM
Blah--computer monitor--NOTED! :D

Danielle--don't worry, learned my lesson the last time--this is just good foresight and preventive maintenence. I will still be leading most of the classes but here is an oops...er...tunity for those interested. :)

Jet
10-31-2004, 04:00 PM
JayD,
I can not thank you enough for starting this course up, and after its overwhelmingly attendance it's obvious I am not alone in my feelings.
It is not a 1 week task, but a 30+ weeks looong endeavour, that even placed on paper is enough to scare me away from such a titanic labor... :(

I've offered my 'hit & run' approach as I am extremely busy at times, between sudden idle periods, that come and go unexpectedly; Besides, your personality and kind manners are more than appropriate for this task. As you've managed to keep the group running together, and now that we got a bit acquainted, you could use this next week as a "practice & group interaction" where we exchange pointers instead of having it all "funneled" on to you, this way you kick back, and relax about having to answer everything, and still having the liberty to cut in, at will, when/as needed. :cool:

I'm sure every 101er will do their best, and help in either way;
That said, now go undust that hammock and hang ten those bones for a while, my friend. :wave:

Kind Regards

ps- pheew!! I have managed to avoid using the "P" word all along !!... :p ;)

sultry
10-31-2004, 04:03 PM
Hi Jay & Class,

Jay I hope you do get your needed rest, you have done a remarkable job (along with everyone else who contributed to help you) on this course.

I was looking at everyones work and already you can see so much improvement and confidence in the way they are applying thier pencils to the paper.

If you take each pre class drawing and compare them to the current assignments they are turning in, you will see what I mean. :)

Judi wow I like how you make perspective look so neat and sharp.

Blah you could do interior designing.

Deb I just love how you made your wooden case. Is that for paintbrushes?

& that beautiful building you did.

edited to add....
yes Jet I agree if everyone pitched in and C & C on everyone else, It would be a great way to learn for everyone over all.

Judi1957
10-31-2004, 04:13 PM
JayD,
Feel so bad this has been so much on you, as we can all see, this is all more than a LOT! You are doing a great job, we are all so appreciative of you and all you are doing. I hope whomever assists you will have the kindness and patience of our leader teacher. I would give you a lot of smiley claps, but my smileys do not seem to work since the virus. Must have done something to some setting. Smileys are turned on though.

CLAP! CLAP! CLAP! CLAP!
That'll have to do. Can't even bold, change font.

You take care!
Judi

g7i7n7a
10-31-2004, 04:52 PM
Hi Jayd,
I feel terrible, along with everyone else, :( that you've been overburdened by the course. You have definitely gone many extra miles in giving support and instruction for everyone. A big thanks also to your wife, who must be sacrificing time with you.
Hopefully this week's higher level of confusion with "P" and need for feedback will not be the norm. did that make sense...
I'm really grateful for all the work you have done.
I know that if I had tried to go through the book on my own I would not have been producing as much as with this group.

Definitely could use another weeks practice.

:music: get well, get well soon, we want you to get well. :music:
gina

JayD
10-31-2004, 05:25 PM
Guys! Calm down! :D It is not so much overburdeness as good project planning. You guys make up the success of this thread and you should share in its success--some of you simply blow me away with your talent and yet here you are taking the course. Beginners here will only become brighter stars when they are allowed to bask in your expertise.

I realized the enormity of this project and it did not make sense to not share with others here and my health is an issue but I take very good care of myself. If no one volunteers you can bet your boots I will be in the thick of the action.

This is simply an offering to some of the best people around--er that would be YOU--take the reins and see how it feels--its one big horse but it is VERY satisfying and all of you should consider taking a turn. Besides, I will be around--won't just disappear. :)

djdedman
10-31-2004, 06:26 PM
Jet
I told you I would try, here is my first attempt.
Jackie

Deb Leger
10-31-2004, 07:20 PM
Thanks, Deb! I would never have thought of the glasses case but that is a good idea. Hey, I pulled out my bottle of gum arabic--handy stuff--did you see beyond the bottle when you drew it--the bottle is actually a cube with a cylinder sitting on top--I noticed that one shoulder slopes down a notch. What do you think?

Hi Jay, Yes I see one shoulder sloping. I'll redraw it and fix that. I was sitting at my painting table, looking for some cube-y things to draw and my eyes landed on that and saw the cube plus a cyclinder so I drew it. :D

Deb

Deb Leger
10-31-2004, 07:30 PM
...Deb I just love how you made your wooden case. Is that for paintbrushes? & that beautiful building you did.

Hi Sultry,

Thanks, and yes, that case came with a set of five brushes for watercolour. Trouble is, I use the two biggest and never touch the other three! :D The price I paid for the set was the same price I would have paid for the two biggest, which was what I was going to order anyways, so I got this beautiful wooden case free.

Thanks too for what you said about the church. It's already been painted in watercolour - the biggest painting I've done so far, 21" x 16". After starting the perspective here, I was really hoping it was okay. The road type area in the front in the drawing is actually a sidewalk and it doesn't look as crooked, perspective-wise, in the finished painting as it does in the drawing. I've got into the habit of drawing out all the detail before I paint something, which helps to force you to really get to "know" what you're about to paint, thereby making it much easier.

Deb

Deb Leger
10-31-2004, 07:33 PM
Jet
I told you I would try, here is my first attempt.
Jackie


Wow, great stuff, Jackie! Everything lines up so nicely!

JayD
10-31-2004, 07:38 PM
Hi, Jackie, regarding your bedroom....er...the bedroom in you drawing. Good one dimensional perspective but are the objects in proportion to each other-have you considered the size of each object contained in that room? Any thoughts?

Ps--I have a lot of trouble with enclosed rooms.

djdedman
10-31-2004, 07:47 PM
Hi, Jackie, regarding your bedroom....er...the bedroom in you drawing. Good one dimensional perspective but are the objects in proportion to each other-have you considered the size of each object contained in that room? Any thoughts?

Ps--I have a lot of trouble with enclosed rooms.

JayD, I really hate to answer you as you are SUPPOSE to be resting!
Regarding the bedroom, no to your question.
The bed would be ok if the jolly green giant or stringbean lived there. :D Also noticed "after" posting the window is out of wack. Also the floor lamp I tried to add looks more like a bird cage.
Ok back to the drawing board to practice, practice, practice. The site Jet posted is really helpful tho, even for a dunce like me. LOL
Jackie

JayD
10-31-2004, 07:54 PM
There is actually something on this subject that I read somewhere...probably the japanese again--they cover every minute detail...let me check.

Jet
10-31-2004, 08:41 PM
Jet
I told you I would try, here is my first attempt.
Jackie
Jackie, Hi! :clap:
There are many rights and the only drawback, too noticeable, is the bed width...
I love how you manage to stay out of trouble with the inclined lamp shade..

As we might have found by now, i that inclined or slanted surfaces don't behave as "square" objects, and they need to be dealt with different type of perspective, as seen in the Guide for slanted surfaces (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2847976&postcount=80) in the Faqs thread..

You're having a great improvement in your drawings !!

Regards :wave:

JayD
10-31-2004, 09:31 PM
Jackie, I was actually inferring the bed but I figured you knew already. You know I am surprised that no one has done a chessboard yet.....hmmmmmmm

resgene
10-31-2004, 10:39 PM
I haven't done a chessboard but after seeing Jet's link I thought I'd try some boxes in a room.... anyway the result is attached. Everyone is doing so well. I have noticed that when I draw something freehand that my vanishing points tend to be in front of the object instead of behind.

Regards,
Michelle

JayD
10-31-2004, 10:44 PM
Michelle, I love it--here is my question--do you, as the artist, feel that the floor will eventually converge into a single vanishing point? What about the boxes are they, in your opinion, in line with the floor, the walls, etc...?

It looks outstanding. Actually, it looks like my house--we have boxes everywhere it seems. :D

mhimeswc
11-01-2004, 12:23 AM
Whew! Thanks for extending the class another week. I don't know if it will help with my mental block on two point perspective, but at least it will keep me from getting a whole week behind. You see, I'm going to the Poconos from Tuesday thru next Sunday to be with my grandkids (and their parents of course). The weather doesn't look all that promising, so I will take whatever free time I get to practice my boxes, chairs, tables, and anything else cubical I can find. I also promised to do lots of arts and crafts with the kids (ages 11, 7, 5, 2 and 8 months - well, the 8-month-old may not be ready yet :) ). I will not have computer access, so I'll still have a lot to catch up on when I get back, but at least I won't have missed a whole week of new stuff.

Rest, JayD, take your time about the new stuff. We can all use all the practice time we can get.

Michelle Himes
(there seem to be two Michelles here, so I'm including my last name)

resgene
11-01-2004, 03:01 AM
Thanks Jay. The box on top of the pile of three looks wrong but it is hanging off the back and therefore awkward anyway. I think generally they look lined up with the walls floor etc. I suppose they look a little distorted (stretched out) but that applies to the rest of the room too. That view isn't a normal one :) I have tried drawing in the rest stacked to the roof - they seem to look ok, interesting exercise anyway. What do you think?

I don't think that a normal room would ever converge at the vanishing point, Even at its smallest point the room would always have a wall at the other end. It may look as though it has converged I suppose, it would have to be a looooooooooong room. Is there a correct answer to this? :confused:

I had a go at doing the television and boxes in 3 point perspective... strange. The boxes at the top left are in 1 and 2 point perspective. The T.V. was the same one as I did earlier so I don't know if the back is correct as it was angular. I'd rather draw buildings that cartoon characters can hide around!!

Regards,
Shelly (aka Michelle - saves on using surnames :))

JayD
11-01-2004, 08:43 AM
BASIC 101:CLASS 2 EXTENSION ANNOUNCEMENT:

Thanks to all of you, again, for making this thread such a tremendous success! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Here are the announcements:

1. Ann will be subbing in for me and leading you through light and dark (not the valleys--just the class)

THIS WEEKS EXTENDED ASSIGNMENT

1. Continue with your experiments like you did last week.

2. During the course of this week, FOR FUN, I would like you to take your new found perspective super powers and use them for the forces of evil. Sometimes the best way to understand something is to do its opposite. Think and draw a picture that is SO not in perspective--you may do this any way that you choose. Then tell us all what you would do to correct it.

HAVE A GREAT WEEK AND LET'S DRAW!!! :wave: :wave: :wave:

Cathie Jones
11-01-2004, 08:57 AM
Okey Dokey! Another week won't hurt me, either. Guess I'll get to throw a little perspective on that boat after all. And as for something outrageously out of perspective, just check out the first two boats!!!! :D

mhimeswc
11-01-2004, 09:28 AM
BASIC 101:CLASS 2 EXTENSION ANNOUNCEMENT:

2. During the course of this week, FOR FUN, I would like you to take your new found perspective super powers and use them for the forces of evil. Sometimes the best way to understand something is to do its opposite. Think and draw a picture that is SO not in perspective--you may do this any way that you choose. Then tell us all what you would do to correct it.



:rolleyes: Are you really sure that we need to practice NOT drawing in perspective? Some of us do it so well already. :evil:

Michelle Himes

bjcpaints
11-01-2004, 09:37 AM
"Barb, are we going to get to see the ceiling fan? I have a house full of them--I think I could build myself a fleet of helicoptors with them. Did you have any problems lining up the chair in perspective?"


I know there is a way to do a quote here but I can't find it at the moment. JayD - I hope you feel better soon! You have to pace yourself, you know? :cool: Please take care of yourself and we will all pull together here. I forgot who said the importance of reading all the messages here but it is true - we do learn so much from each other! OK I will post the cieling fan tonight - its got problems though and not just because of the size. LOL The chair I felt fine with except I had to lean against the front door to get that side of it.
I have been asked to put some of my rock paintings in the gift shop of a small museum here so I am glad we have a little extention to practice drawing the "P" word this week as I am going crazy painting animals on rocks too!
Barbara

JayD
11-01-2004, 10:08 AM
The difference is that THIS time you have to THINK about drawing out of perspective--it is an exercise in self awareness. Kind of like drawing a picture upside down.

Fireman's kid
11-01-2004, 11:19 AM
Attention: Due To Unforseen Circumstances, I Am Extending Class 2 For One More Week As Has Been Suggested By Jet. Keep Practicing And I Know That You All Will Do Well. Regards--jay

Hooray!!! :clap: (Better clarify. Clapping for my good fortune at having another week to catch up, not at Jay's "unforseen circumstances" which I truely hope aren't a bad thing for him.)

Every night last week I intended to do my homework but didn't. Then Thursday I came down with a wicked cold. It is just a cold, but is totally kicking my butt. This germ has been haunting my family for the whole month of October. We just keep passing it around.

So long story short...I have only completed Exercise 2, have not even caught up on reading the entire thread and am happy to have the extension. Particularly since the next thing I must do is finish the drawing for my commission that I am supposed to have painted by Dec. 5th. If I haven't mentioned it before, it is a house portrait done in 2 point perspective and is a perspective nightmare!! But I will be using all of this wonderful information to correct the perspective as needed and then will try to post for all to see.

I'm a little worried about this commission (my first one) because I paint pretty slow and the due date is quickly approaching. But at least I should be able to fix any drawing problems thanks to you lot. And I will get to the Lesson 2 exercises as soon as I can - even if it's not this week either. :o :)

By the way, from what I have seen here, people really seem to be getting the hang of this perspective thing! :cool:

Mary Woodul
11-01-2004, 11:37 AM
AND SPEAKING OF THIS--HERE IS AN ANNOUNCEMENT:


Many of you know that I had to suspend my activity for about a week and a half after suffering a collapse due to physical exhaustion. I want to make certain that this does not happen again (I am kind of selfish that way} but, collectively, we have all developed a valualbe resource and the numbers certainly prove that coupled with the fact that we have the full support of the the moderators and guides.
. :)

JayD, I'm so sorry I didn't know about this. Please take care of yourself and we will be here working with this that needs thourough studying. My regards to you and your family.
Mary

Cathie Jones
11-01-2004, 12:17 PM
I've offered my 'hit & run' approach as I am extremely busy at times, between sudden idle periods, that come and go unexpectedly; Besides, your personality and kind manners are more than appropriate for this task. As you've managed to keep the group running together, and now that we got a bit acquainted, you could use this next week as a "practice & group interaction" where we exchange pointers instead of having it all "funneled" on to you, this way you kick back, and relax about having to answer everything, and still having the liberty to cut in, at will, when/as needed. :cool:

I'm sure every 101er will do their best, and help in either way;
That said, now go undust that hammock and hang ten those bones for a while, my friend. :wave:

Kind Regards

ps- pheew!! I have managed to avoid using the "P" word all along !!... :p ;)

These comments of Jet's remind me of a conversation with my DH (darling husband) yesterday. I commented that I was so glad I'd joined this "class" because I'm learning so much already. He asked what made it more special than any other drawing lessons, and I realized that it's like having 20 teachers (or more!). The more experienced people here are so willing to jump in with C&C and suggestions for improvement.

So, take it easy, JayD. We're getting lots of good help here . . . :clap:

Judi1957
11-01-2004, 12:22 PM
Ann,
Thank-you :clap: :clap: :clap: for stepping up to help!

:wave:
Judi

g7i7n7a
11-01-2004, 02:01 PM
Okey Dokey! Another week won't hurt me, either. Guess I'll get to throw a little perspective on that boat after all. And as for something outrageously out of perspective, just check out the first two boats!!!! :D
LOL :wave:

idcrisis55
11-01-2004, 02:29 PM
Cathie I got a chuckle from your last post on the perspective of the boats too :D . I've been putting off doing the chair again but now I can draw it the way I naturally do, out of perspective.

Judi, wish I knew more so I really could help. I won't be doing much as Jay is going to write the lesson so he won't be getting much of a break. I will just be here to hopefully help with anything that comes along on that lesson. Knowing Jay is hovering in the background and with input from all of you, that makes me feel there is a "security blanket" lol.

Stacy, hope you feel much better soon!

Ann

sultry
11-01-2004, 02:37 PM
Stacey I am sorry you caught a cold, I hope your feeling better & I can't wait to see your commission painting. :)

Cathie wow your brave to take on 2 boats ;)

Deb I hope you post the church also when its completed :)

& ooohhh Ann I am so happy you stepped up to help us :)

I have no art school education in my back ground :( but I do study on my own when I can, so if you would like any help I am offerring my 2 cents when needed. ~~huggles~~

:clap:

idcrisis55
11-01-2004, 03:15 PM
Thanks for offering your assistance Sultry! Like you I don't have an art school background either and learn mostly on my own (from Wet Canvas & other art groups, books, videos, artist friends, & practice), so help from any of you will be appreciated. :D

You are in for a treat as I've seen Deb's church painting which is beautiful and very well done :)

Ann

JayD
11-01-2004, 03:25 PM
Hey, Ann--WHAA-HA-HA-HA-HA-AH! :evil:

Cathie Jones
11-01-2004, 03:31 PM
Cathie wow your brave to take on 2 boats ;)


Brave? Nah! I just keep taking on the same boat . . . over and over and over! Used to want to paint the darned thing - - now I'll be glad to see the tide come in and take it away! ;) The brave ones are those who are taking on the chair.

idcrisis55
11-01-2004, 03:34 PM
WHAA-HA-HA-HA-HA-AH!

Yes JayD??? Are you trying to tell me what I can expect? :D
Ann

cmwynn
11-01-2004, 03:42 PM
I wanted to reply to a post several pages back, by Michelle. She was talking about clearing her table so she could move the box further away and have a better sight line to her box. No, I don't think so. The point is that the sight line is from your eye straight ahead, unless I am completely wrong (not unusual). If the table is 3 feet high and you are sitting on a regular chair, your sight line is about 4 feet from the ground. If you want to get the sight line closer to the box, put something under the box, rather than putting it further away from you. If I am all wet, someone please correct me. This is a VERY important point.

JayD
11-01-2004, 06:23 PM
Connie, to quote a famous dog song: BINGO! That is an excellent observation--remember that the main topic here is eye level and its relationship to perspective.

Ann--absolutely! :evil:

Cathie--in the April 2004 edition of Watercolor Magic there is an excellent article on reflections and perspective,of course is also mentioned. There is a boat mentioned two that you should take a look at.

Sultry, if you would be interested in substituting--drop me a line--I think you would be ok to handle this for one week. I'll still write the lesson so pm me if you are interested.

Mlelevier--don't worry about my health just yet--I am doing things to make sure that you guys have the best experience her possible and quite frankly--I am just helming the lesson--any of you can do this--I'll write the lesson if you would like to pick one to steer--just drop me a PM--regarding my health, I usually sleep 2 to three hours a day--I am slightly hyperactive--like a giant rodent on coffee so every once in a while the body shuts down--only happened once or twice so I just need to rest everyone once in a while--I grew up driving forward and it is hard to break old work habits. :)

Stacey, get will (he said calling the kettle black)--lots of honey and lemon in your tea! :)

Fireman's Kid--as a friend of my who is an officer on the T Boston, describing his state of mind--"I'm alive and well and living in Antlers, Oklahoma" :D Don't worry about the homework--just do this at your pace--besides, I can't whap you with my yardstick--it keeps disappearing over the horizan and into the vanishing point--I just can't see that far! :D Just do this at your own pace--keep up with yourself--that is what is important. :)

g7i7n7a
11-01-2004, 06:48 PM
Hello Everyone,
this is getting exasperating... I think I understand the principle, any parallel conditions share the same vanishing lines.
I can do the box excercise, maybe a kleenex even, sketch cubes etc.

but when I attempt something like the pedestal table or a stack of books, I seem to be at a loss as to how to apply principle to correct my drawings.

the stack of books for example, does this sound right;
after sketching the books
eyeball the horizon line - hope that it's close
find roughly the center of the top section a book, and place a vpr and a vpl in line with each of those center points, on the horizon line
converge the outer parallel lines to vanishing points
repeat process for each book?
if this is correct, the light might be coming on
thanks to anyone who might have some tips. :( :)
blessings,
gina