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NitroGal78
09-30-2004, 12:21 AM
Could we please get back the to tell part in show and tell? I get all this inspiration from the beautiful beads, but I don't know the colors well enough to figure it out from the photos. Sorry to be a party pooper.

Cole
09-30-2004, 12:50 AM
I agree that the "tell" part would be nice to have, but I would venture to say that in many cases, the lampworker wants to show his/her work without giving away the recipe, especially if she/he is benefiting from excellent sales for her particular bead/set. And imagine the benefit you get in experimenting over and over again to figure it out on your own, rather than just following a set of instructions?

I'm just glad to see what everyone is doing! I don't look at the showcase as often as I'd like, but when I do I'm always astounded.

Beth Myers
09-30-2004, 01:01 AM
Could we please get back the to tell part in show and tell? I get all this inspiration from the beautiful beads, but I don't know the colors well enough to figure it out from the photos. Sorry to be a party pooper.

You aren't a party pooper! Learning from the Show and Tell is an important part of the process I believe.
For some flameworkers showing work is a great tool for building confidence and getting some much needed pats on the back.
For others, sharing tips and techniques is important.
Some artist prefer not to give away their trade secrets, and I don't blame them.
I would like to feel that anyone who wanted to post in the show and tell could do so without having to feel obligated to reveal any information that they didn't want to divulge.
It is a fact that some members do choose not to post some remarkable work because of this. And also because so many are copied.
I hate that.
It has been my experience that most artist are very generous with information when pm'd or emailed.
And as a side note, I really hate it when someone post another artist work and ask....."How do they do this or that"?
It would be very rare to see that in any other forum here on WC. And considered rude. I agree with that. I understand some may feel flattered to be noticed and there is nothing wrong with that, but what about the curtesy of asking the artist privately first. ;) But I guess that is a whole different rant :D
I hate being deprived of some amazing work or denying an artist this outlet all because they didn't feel ready to give away those hard earned "insider tips" :wink2: :D
Beth

Beth Myers
09-30-2004, 01:17 AM
And imagine the benefit you get in experimenting over and over again to figure it out on your own, rather than just following a set of instructions?



Well put! :D
B~

Cole
09-30-2004, 01:24 AM
Well put! :D
B~
LOL... I was just going to say the same to you!

Beth Myers
09-30-2004, 01:27 AM
LOL... I was just going to say the same to you!

Thank you Nichole!
I HATE always sounding like everyone's first grade teacher :evil:
Beth

Kimberly Affleck
09-30-2004, 11:28 AM
And imagine the benefit you get in experimenting over and over again to figure it out on your own, rather than just following a set of instructions?

DITTO!!!!! That is how most of the well known artists got there in the first place!!! Think of all of the interesting effects you might miss if you just follow someone else's recipe!

Kimberly Affleck
09-30-2004, 11:31 AM
You aren't a party pooper! Learning from the Show and Tell is an important part of the process I believe.
For some flameworkers showing work is a great tool for building confidence and getting some much needed pats on the back.
For others, sharing tips and techniques is important.
Some artist prefer not to give away their trade secrets, and I don't blame them.
I would like to feel that anyone who wanted to post in the show and tell could do so without having to feel obligated to reveal any information that they didn't want to divulge.
It is a fact that some members do choose not to post some remarkable work because of this. And also because so many are copied.
I hate that.
It has been my experience that most artist are very generous with information when pm'd or emailed.
And as a side note, I really hate it when someone post another artist work and ask....."How do they do this or that"?
It would be very rare to see that in any other forum here on WC. And considered rude. I agree with that. I understand some may feel flattered to be noticed and there is nothing wrong with that, but what about the curtesy of asking the artist privately first. ;) But I guess that is a whole different rant :D
I hate being deprived of some amazing work or denying an artist this outlet all because they didn't feel ready to give away those hard earned "insider tips" :wink2: :D
Beth

DITTO, DITTO, DITTO!!!!! It is sometimes disheartening to see how many want to take the "short cuts", real or imagined, rather than try on their own and come up with something new. There really aren't any shortcuts. Time on the torch, effort, inspiration and practice. And a little sweat.

SuzyQ
09-30-2004, 11:41 AM
Nitro gal - I thought your question was a valid one. But I guess it isn't the norm for lampworkers to share color mixing. Now we know :). When I was first learning about color mixing it was in watercolor. I just made a chart and penciled in what I used. When I started playing with clay I made little color squares each time I discovered a "new" color and wrote down the recipe on the tile. I am very, very new to glass so maybe one of the more experienced lampworkers could tell us the best way to do the same with glass. Please?

Lampburke
09-30-2004, 12:23 PM
Speaking of a little sweat, a little research in the archives of this Forum will reap SCADS of details about color mixing. You might try that.

Schermo
09-30-2004, 01:05 PM
DITTO, DITTO, DITTO!!!!! It is sometimes disheartening to see how many want to take the "short cuts", real or imagined, rather than try on their own and come up with something new. There really aren't any shortcuts. Time on the torch, effort, inspiration and practice. And a little sweat.

Ah, yes. Kimberly has stated it EXACTLY - I feel this all the time, from not only the people I've taught, but from the posts I've read by newer beadmakers on all the forums. Why do people want shortcuts? Don't they realize that the real satisfaction from beadmaking comes from learning and discovering things for yourself??? Sometimes I even feel a sense of entitlement behind requests for information and technique. (Not pointing fingers at anyone specifically, just what I've noticed, in general.) It makes me mad. (Now you've pushed the button, and got me going. Nice job, Kimberly!! LOL)

I know this sounds cliche'd, but those of us who have been making beads for a number of years (more than 5) were in what I think was the third or fourth wave/generation of beadmakers, and five or more years ago, there were NO presses, NO booklets on beadmakers and techniques, very few books and videos (I think when I started, there had been 3 or 4 books published at that point in time on beadmaking ), no DVD's, no recipe booklets and VERY few classes offered.

Today, with all the information that's out there on the internet, you can find a zillion websites to gaze at handmade beads, a bead show to go look at and buy the real thing (or supplies) this weekend, a book to order off Amazon.com today, and a class in almost any technique to sign up for next week. You also have the amazing resources of Wet Canvas! and The ISGB forum. (As Susan mentions, after you sign up, first thing to do is learn to use the archives and search function!)

It is so much easier now than it was when I was learning (she says, stroking her long, gray beard.... I'm channelling Lewis Wilson at the moment, I think...) and I want to encourage all of you, next time you want to know how something is done, GO OUT TO THE TORCH and FIGURE IT OUT!! I guarantee that you will learn FAR MORE that way, than if you simply look it up on the internet.

Hot glass is something that you need to learn not only by reading about it, but even more so by doing it. It's the interaction between head, eyes and hands that will make you proficient, not just by reading about it, and getting tips, tricks and shortcuts.

Let me explain it another way: Some one telling that they made a certain set in the color combination with ink blue and sage green, and then melted silver foil on top will allow you to COPY that color combo, and make a similar set, or at least get that look to your beads.

However, an hour or so at the torch, experimenting with colors and foils and frits and enamels, trying to figure it out on your own, will teach you (whether you know it or not, and regardless of whether you actually figure out how to duplicate the other person's beads!) SO MUCH MORE!!

And yes, I realize that you all do that, anyway. I just want to encourage you to rely less on the internet, and more on your torch in order to grow as beadmakers.

Can someone give me a hand down off this soapbox? Kimberly? Beth? Anyone?
Schermo

Melinda Melanson
09-30-2004, 01:28 PM
Can someone give me a hand down off this soapbox? Kimberly? Beth? Anyone?

...giving a helping hand to Schermo's current personality. hee hee

I remember when I started burning glass, I was frustrated over the lack of online information available. My lack of computer "smarts" didn't help in the matter. Then Michey turned me on to the ISGB, there was more information there than I could handle. (thanks alot Michey, I have spent thousands of $$ on glass, equipment and have a mild case of torch envy!)

NitroGal78
09-30-2004, 01:32 PM
Well, this has pretty much hurt my feelings. I thought the daily posts were called "show and tell" with the purpose of receiving praise for excellent work and telling how the beads were made. I guess I never feel like it is a competition with secrets that need to be protected, and if an artist is afraid someone can "really" copy their work maybe there shouldn't post in "show and tell". Aside from all of this argument that can get ugly at times here. My intentions were to purchase some of the nice colors I see in the beautiful beads in show and tell that I have not used of yet, not copy beads or secret formulas. I will continue to slowly use my limited resources to buy only a few rods at much higher prices w/out bulk discounts and experiment on my own.

My intention with this post is not to ruffle any feathers, but to state just how wrong assumptions and conclusions can be.

Kimberly Affleck
09-30-2004, 01:45 PM
Ah, yes. Kimberly has stated it EXACTLY - I feel this all the time, from not only the people I've taught, but from the posts I've read by newer beadmakers on all the forums. Why do people want shortcuts? Don't they realize that the real satisfaction from beadmaking comes from learning and discovering things for yourself??? Sometimes I even feel a sense of entitlement behind requests for information and technique. (Not pointing fingers at anyone specifically, just what I've noticed, in general.) It makes me mad. (Now you've pushed the button, and got me going. Nice job, Kimberly!! LOL)

I know this sounds cliche'd, but those of us who have been making beads for a number of years (more than 5) were in what I think was the third or fourth wave/generation of beadmakers, and five or more years ago, there were NO presses, NO booklets on beadmakers and techniques, very few books and videos (I think when I started, there had been 3 or 4 books published at that point in time on beadmaking ), no DVD's, no recipe booklets and VERY few classes offered.

Today, with all the information that's out there on the internet, you can find a zillion websites to gaze at handmade beads, a bead show to go look at and buy the real thing (or supplies) this weekend, a book to order off Amazon.com today, and a class in almost any technique to sign up for next week. You also have the amazing resources of Wet Canvas! and The ISGB forum. (As Susan mentions, after you sign up, first thing to do is learn to use the archives and search function!)

It is so much easier now than it was when I was learning (she says, stroking her long, gray beard.... I'm channelling Lewis Wilson at the moment, I think...) and I want to encourage all of you, next time you want to know how something is done, GO OUT TO THE TORCH and FIGURE IT OUT!! I guarantee that you will learn FAR MORE that way, than if you simply look it up on the internet.

Hot glass is something that you need to learn not only by reading about it, but even more so by doing it. It's the interaction between head, eyes and hands that will make you proficient, not just by reading about it, and getting tips, tricks and shortcuts.

Let me explain it another way: Some one telling that they made a certain set in the color combination with ink blue and sage green, and then melted silver foil on top will allow you to COPY that color combo, and make a similar set, or at least get that look to your beads.

However, an hour or so at the torch, experimenting with colors and foils and frits and enamels, trying to figure it out on your own, will teach you (whether you know it or not, and regardless of whether you actually figure out how to duplicate the other person's beads!) SO MUCH MORE!!

And yes, I realize that you all do that, anyway. I just want to encourage you to rely less on the internet, and more on your torch in order to grow as beadmakers.

Can someone give me a hand down off this soapbox? Kimberly? Beth? Anyone?
Schermo

Naw, no hand down, but I'll join you on this one! I started making beads 8 or 9 years ago (OMG, has it been that long? Is Lewis strong enough to channel both of us???). At that time, IF you found a teacher, you PAID to learn from them. If you wanted that knowledge, you were happy to empty your pocket book!!! No whining about how much it cost, how far you had to travel, etc. Then, you PRACTICED, EXPERIMENTED, READ BOOKS, PRACTICED, PRACTICED, PRACTICED. If you were lucky, you found others who were doing the same thing. If you weren't so lucky, you kept on trying on your own. If you saw something you liked, you went home and FIGURED IT OUT!!! There was no one to ask, really. You queried the glass and you LEARNED!! If I saw a bead I liked, I went home and experimented until I could come close. While experimenting, I usually found out some things that I would not have if the maker of that bead just gave me the recipe. In fact, very often, I discovered things that I really liked and got sidetracked, never making the bead I had intended to figure out. Sometimes, I figured the bead out and used what I learned to do something different. I think the only things I ever intentionally copied were beads that I had been shown in the few classes I managed to take. I copied them to learn a technique, then went on from there.
Tips and tricks were just that: tiny hints that might lead you to something big. They were not complete "how to's". They were the frosting, not the whole cupcake.
I try to work the same way now. Yep, I read the "tutorials" and the tips and tricks, but then, I try to take that information and apply it in ways that are not outlined anywhere. Sometimes I get something wonderful, sometimes I get mud. But I always learn something. I hope all of the new people getting into glass ( and not so new people, too) can find the appetite for learning that has led glasswork so far. I would hate to see this craft stagnate. It is relatively easy to paint-by-numbers. But when you are faced with a blank canvas, no lines, no instructions, then only your experimentation, learning, knowledge, ideas and creativity will all come together and literally force you to fill that canvas.

My .05 cents worth

firemonkey
09-30-2004, 02:09 PM
Hey Lisa,
I can understand where you're coming from. I think this may be one of those "hot button" issues you happened to hit!
I am always happy to share "exactly" any technique I use to make beads I present in Show & Tell. All anyone has to do is PM me.
The interesting thing to me is that even with a detailed step by step instruction, another person will have a different result than I get.
This is what I find so compelling about working with glass- the lack of
"control". All the different variables that go into the creation add up differently each time-even when I try to duplicate my own work! I can seldom get the exact same result each time. This is what keeps me coming back to the torch each night, working til the wee hours.
I think there are two (maybe more?) approaches to this kind of work:
"Results" oriented and "Journey" oriented. Some are more interested in the final product, some are more interested in the journey. Different strokes and all... The process of working is similar yet very different in intent.
For myself, as much as I may fall in love with one of my finished beads,
I love the making of it even more. Needless to say- my success rate is quite low. Luckily, I don't have to depend on the beads for income. :)

I have learned most of what I do know from WC and ISGB archives. Like Susan said- it's a valuable resource. I think if you were to PM the artist about their work- you may well get the info you seek. On the whole, the community is a generous one. As someone who has a limited amount of money to spend on tools and glass, I can really understand where you're coming from. I've not found this a handicap though, as it has allowed me to
really explore the medium and colors in a way that I probably wouldn't have had I had access to more materials. It has forced me to use what I have in the most creative ways possible. After all, the colors available to all of us are very few-it's what we do with them!;)
Don't be afraid to post or ask questions, it's what keeps this forum active and interesting. You question was reasonable and party pooper you are not! :D

Paula D
09-30-2004, 02:20 PM
I have to agree with Nitro Gal. As a relatively new bead maker I would also like to know the colors used, etc in the photos!! I am not about to copy. I am just curious and would like to learn and that is one way of learning! I have paid to take classes (and that's also part of the fun), I have experimented on the torch and I am still clueless about a lot of things. No one has to worry about me copying with my 50 to 60 hour work week as I rarely get to my torch and right now it's not functioning anyway. There is nothing wrong with seeing a color combination and then going to the torch to play with it. (Can't though if I don't know what the colors are!! ) And why would I want to spend hours of frustration at the torch just because someone else has? That wouldn't make it fun anymore....I have personally found in life that those who give and share...get in the end in one way or another....
Paula

SuzyQ
09-30-2004, 02:37 PM
Kimberly and Shmerno -What you say if so true. I can remember learning how to write basic computer programs to do things and now everybody and their brother can just use a computer. Boy I sure wish everybody else had to learn to write a program before they got to use a computer. :D (this was meant to be funny not snippy).
I don't think Nitro was asking for secrets or step by step directions. When we newbies see a purple we like are we suppose to buy every purple out there? Have you ever tried to match the purple in a bead to the numerous purples available? And even if we get the right one we aren't going to get the same effect so how do we know if that cool streaky stuff is technique or just a trait of the purple used? Heck if it makes you mad I'm sorry, but I'm going to ask when I want to know. Feel free to decline.
And, she is right. Why call it show and tell if nobody is going to tell anything?

Cole
09-30-2004, 02:50 PM
Well, this has pretty much hurt my feelings. I thought the daily posts were called "show and tell" with the purpose of receiving praise for excellent work and telling how the beads were made. I guess I never feel like it is a competition with secrets that need to be protected, and if an artist is afraid someone can "really" copy their work maybe there shouldn't post in "show and tell". Aside from all of this argument that can get ugly at times here. My intentions were to purchase some of the nice colors I see in the beautiful beads in show and tell that I have not used of yet, not copy beads or secret formulas. I will continue to slowly use my limited resources to buy only a few rods at much higher prices w/out bulk discounts and experiment on my own.

My intention with this post is not to ruffle any feathers, but to state just how wrong assumptions and conclusions can be.

The category is called "Showcase". Sure, the person who starts the daily thread might call it "show and tell", but of course that is a throwback to kindergarten days when we got to show off our favorite toys, and pout when someone had something we wanted.

And sure, beadmaking isn't a competition, but that doesn't mean that some people don't want to see copies of their work all over Ebay. So that means they shouldn't "showcase" their work of the day? You'll miss a lot of beautiful beads if people who don't "tell" are banned from showing. You will find that even though some people don't care to give out all their secrets, they are still very generous and giving with regards to the information that they DO share, and they probably spend more time showing, teaching, traveling, and preparing for classes than they do in satisfying their urge to melt glass in private. Yes, you have to pay for classes, but they have to buy glass and supplies, too.

I don't think its rude to ask "Wow! What color is that?". That is a perfectly valid question, and I don't think anyone here would say that it isn't. If you read the posts carefully, they ventured into addressing issues of people wanting instant gratification in knowing the directions, rather than gaining the value of experimentation and using their noggin to figure it out. Obviously your original post only dealt with colors, not copying techniques, so the responses that went beyond "what color is that" didn't really apply to you, and were more general... they apply to anyone, not specifically or necessarily you, but the thread just sprouted out in that direction, as they tend to do sometimes (like those little "sucker" branches on tomato plants!).

If you want to know a specific color, don't be afraid to PM the person. But I wouldn't expect people to start telling on the daily threads just because some people want them to. First of all, some people just don't want to, some don't think to, some people are posting as they are running out the door and don't have time, and most of all, habits are hard to break!! ;) The bottom line is, don't hold it against the people if they don't want to share. They've probably got a good reason for it.

So I guess I don't understand the hurt feelings :confused: . I suppose you could read into the responses that they were personal attacks against you, or you could look at some of them as wise, useful guidance from those who have preceded you, about a general problem that they've noticed that is directly or indirectly related to your original post, and not really directed specifically at you. That's the optimistic way to look at it!! ;)

Cole
09-30-2004, 02:54 PM
Also, you will find that feathers get ruffled a lot around here :D (so it helps to develop either a really tough skin or an unusually high sense of humor).

And when a thread branches off as this one has, don't assume or jump to the conclusion that its directed at you or any other specific person (unless names or other identifying factors are mentioned)... for some of us its because we like to hear ourselves talk, and we've jump at any chance to speak our minds! (Hmmm... I don't know anyone like THAT!! :D )

Beth Myers
09-30-2004, 02:59 PM
NItro, SuzyQ and Paula,
Please reread my post. In it I've addressed the issues you mention.
Nitro, your request was a valid one. The other replies are equally valid and full of some of the best free advice you'll get, from some of the most talented folks around.
Questions are good, when done in the right way with the right intentions.
My point was, share if you like, don't share if you are uncomfortable with it.
And I suggested that we all be more aware of everyone's right to withhold information. No one implied that you ask questions to copy, etc. I said that some flameworkers don't post photos because they are copied. And they are!
Pm'ing an artist who post but doesn't "share" will more than likely get you information you wanted, as several posters have stated.
And Susan is 100% correct, WC and ISGB are overflowing with information ripe for the picking. So, share, don't share, let's keep the Show and Tell a great place for everyone to come and not feel obligated to meeting any unreal expectations. :D
Beth








You aren't a party pooper! Learning from the Show and Tell is an important part of the process I believe.
For some flameworkers showing work is a great tool for building confidence and getting some much needed pats on the back.
For others, sharing tips and techniques is important.
Some artist prefer not to give away their trade secrets, and I don't blame them.
I would like to feel that anyone who wanted to post in the show and tell could do so without having to feel obligated to reveal any information that they didn't want to divulge.
It is a fact that some members do choose not to post some remarkable work because of this. And also because so many are copied.
I hate that.
It has been my experience that most artist are very generous with information when pm'd or emailed.
And as a side note, I really hate it when someone post another artist work and ask....."How do they do this or that"?
It would be very rare to see that in any other forum here on WC. And considered rude. I agree with that. I understand some may feel flattered to be noticed and there is nothing wrong with that, but what about the curtesy of asking the artist privately first. ;) But I guess that is a whole different rant :D
I hate being deprived of some amazing work or denying an artist this outlet all because they didn't feel ready to give away those hard earned "insider tips" :wink2: :D
Beth

Nichole, you slipped this one in on me. But you said it so much better than I did! ;)

I suppose you could read into the responses that they were personal attacks against you, or you could look at some of them as wise, useful guidance from those who have preceded you, about a general problem that they've noticed that is directly or indirectly related to your original post, and not really directed specifically at you. That's the optimistic way to look at it!! ;)

dreambead1
09-30-2004, 03:15 PM
Hey,Nitro, If i ever start posting my beads I'll be happy to tell you what I use...that is, if I remember! I tend to change my mind mid-bead, and just grab what I like the looks of. Later, when the bead is great I just scratch my head and wonder" Great color, what is it?" I am always very grateful when anyone gives little tips, but frankly would never ask. I don't mess with people who have hot glass on hand!LOL!Ginarae

Cole
09-30-2004, 03:18 PM
Nichole, you slipped this one in on me. But you said it so much better than I did! ;)

Oh, Beth! I'm SO getting the warm and fuzzies!! (did you know that my middle name is Beth?) LOL :D

Have a great afternoon, everyone, and happy burning!!

krafter
09-30-2004, 03:18 PM
I don't post much, just prefer to lurk around and keep my opinions to myself. However, this thread struck a nerve. Many of the replays on this post just did not sound like the WC that I have grown to love. I have gotten more information from all of you then I can ever share and they have helped me become a much better beadmaker and teacher. But this thread just does not fit in that tradition. There have been other times recently that we have been asked to put more tell in the show and tell, and nobody came unglued then. I thought that this site was about sharing. I agree that practice and experimentation is the best way to learn. That is how I learned to make beads, but how does it hurt me if I tell someone the colors that I used in a set of beads, or share a bit of how I made them? Beginners are not going to copy my beads, at least not to the level that I do them, and if they can, then I need to look at my own skill level. If I post something in the show and tell then I should be willing to do the tell part along with the show.

I love to look at the show and tell every day, not so I can copy someone else's work but because I like to see all the great beads others create. If I wanted to, I could copy most of the beads I see. Do I? No! I have my own style and I enjoy making my beads, my way. Do I get great ideas that might inspire me to do something a bit different with my style? Yes all the time.

To me if I choose to post in the show and tell then it is because I want to share something that I think was really wonderful and I want to show it off and let others share what I have done, and a bit of how I did it. If I don't want to do that then I don't put anything in the show and tell. I generally don't post things just to have my ego boosted. I let my customers do that when they send me their hard earned money for my beads. Nor do I post here to increase hits on my auctions, there are other, better ways to do that. Do we really want to go back to the "good old days", when only a few could make beads and the tools and supplies and glass were equally hard to come by?????????? Personally, I would rather have some newbies nipping at my heals to make sure that I work hard improving my beads each time I torch, so that I can have as much glass, and toys as I can get. I can never tell who is going to give me the next great idea. I have had as many ideas come from newbies as I have from the greats.

Ok now that I have gotten off the soapbox I will except my punishment.

Jim

Beth Myers
09-30-2004, 03:26 PM
Jim,
I think you missed the intent of the other posts.
In a nutshell....... ;)

\ So, share, don't share, let's keep the Show and Tell a great place for everyone to come and not feel obligated to meeting any unreal expectations. :D
Beth

scupltorgirl
09-30-2004, 03:29 PM
The interesting thing to me is that even with a detailed step by step instruction, another person will have a different result than I get.


Exactly. Well said, firemonkey! :D

It's interesting how a similar thread was posted about this very same thing (fairly recently, actually) -- of putting the "tell" back in "Show & Tell", and the idea was accepted, encouraged, and even cheered by the responding members. Why will a question be cheered and validated one time, and met with anger and resentment another time?

I'm pretty sure that NitroGal98 didn't expect to be met with such vented frustration by posting her question.

NitroGal 98, it's not always like this. I still haven't figured out why a post will push people's "hot buttons" one time, and be met with friendly camaraderie the next time the same concept appears.

There is a quote from Isaac Newton that can apply to any skill that progresses over time: "If I have seen further, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants". Those lampworkers that were making beads five years ago, ten years ago, two-thousand years ago, they all had it harder than we do now.

I've learned from books and the internet (primarily WC), and I am grateful every time I am able to learn something new.

I believe it all boils down to "hard won" knowledge. If it was hard for one person to learn, then they believe that it should be hard for everyone -- except people who are natural teachers or researchers. Those people really are the light of the world. There is a person on WC who recently posted a link to her chart on PearlEx reactions on soft glass -- it was a lot of work, but she shared it for the betterment of all, so that no one had to re-invent the wheel. There have been countless others here on WC who post charts of glass reactions, frit reactions, tutorials, etcetera in order to help the community move forward as a whole.

Now understand that I do not disparage, nor do I want to insult in any way those people who have come up with something truly novel, and who don't wish to share their processes. It's absolutely okay for people to keep their own discoveries private, or to just show a picture of their proud creation without explaining the process/technique. (I have no complaint about that -- it's theirs until someone else does it, too. :eek: )

It only surprises and shocks me when a venting of frustration occurs directed towards an otherwise casual question by a new member.

--Terri

DonnaBee
09-30-2004, 03:40 PM
There can be the "tell" part without typed words.

We are visual artists. Many of us work intuitively. There are things that can never be said in words. Sometimes, with glass, photographs come close.....

Just my own feelings... which are unique, others feel differently and they work and learn differently. Neither of us are right or wrong.

But.... I really need to see the pictures every day, you guys!

I have to throw in my perspective because I don't want anyone to not post their pics because they are unable to, at that moment that day, type words to go with their "Show n Tell" pics.

Reasons this could happen: sometimes it's a time constraint, sometimes the artist doesn't want to be redundant, because they have already posted the text on other parts of WC. Myself, personally, I would always tell in detail in words if asked, but I would feel presumptious to just tell it right off, especially if it's a common technique or not "my" technique (although I have done such things on WC before :o ). That's just me.

NitroGal78
09-30-2004, 03:41 PM
Thank you, Jim! I tried and couldn't say it all so well. It was the tone that hurt my feelings and it still does. As far as Beth's comment above about the intent, that really doesn't address what struck Jim's nerve.
Lisa

I don't post much, just prefer to lurk around and keep my opinions to myself. However, this thread struck a nerve. Many of the replays on this post just did not sound like the WC that I have grown to love. I have gotten more information from all of you then I can ever share and they have helped me become a much better beadmaker and teacher. But this thread just does not fit in that tradition. There have been other times recently that we have been asked to put more tell in the show and tell, and nobody came unglued then. I thought that this site was about sharing. I agree that practice and experimentation is the best way to learn. That is how I learned to make beads, but how does it hurt me if I tell someone the colors that I used in a set of beads, or share a bit of how I made them? Beginners are not going to copy my beads, at least not to the level that I do them, and if they can, then I need to look at my own skill level. If I post something in the show and tell then I should be willing to do the tell part along with the show.

I love to look at the show and tell every day, not so I can copy someone else's work but because I like to see all the great beads others create. If I wanted to, I could copy most of the beads I see. Do I? No! I have my own style and I enjoy making my beads, my way. Do I get great ideas that might inspire me to do something a bit different with my style? Yes all the time.

To me if I choose to post in the show and tell then it is because I want to share something that I think was really wonderful and I want to show it off and let others share what I have done, and a bit of how I did it. If I don't want to do that then I don't put anything in the show and tell. I generally don't post things just to have my ego boosted. I let my customers do that when they send me their hard earned money for my beads. Nor do I post here to increase hits on my auctions, there are other, better ways to do that. Do we really want to go back to the "good old days", when only a few could make beads and the tools and supplies and glass were equally hard to come by?????????? Personally, I would rather have some newbies nipping at my heals to make sure that I work hard improving my beads each time I torch, so that I can have as much glass, and toys as I can get. I can never tell who is going to give me the next great idea. I have had as many ideas come from newbies as I have from the greats.

Ok now that I have gotten off the soapbox I will except my punishment.

Jim

Cole
09-30-2004, 03:44 PM
Why will a question be cheered and validated one time, and met with anger and resentment another time?

...It only surprises and shocks me when a venting of frustration occurs directed towards an otherwise casual question by a new member.


I've not seen anger and resentment directed at either Nitro, or her specific question about colors, so I guess the first quoted comment befuddles me. Rather, the thread branched into an issue parallel to the one she mentioned, as threads here on WC often do. And actually, a forum such as this is exactly where glass-world frustrations should be vented. Why not?

I get rather amused at how some people try to twist some of the replies into something they aren't, and then get angry about it, when in fact they are misreading the intent and the direction of the replies. *shrug*

Kimberly Affleck
09-30-2004, 03:45 PM
I don't think Nitro was asking for secrets or step by step directions.?
I never thought she was asking for any secrets and in fact, my responses were in response to something Beth posted and a follow-up by Schermo.
I have ALWAYS responded to those who ask how I did something. I have listed colors, sent 2-3 page emails detailing how to use reduction frit, how to fume, how to shape, etc. My "rant" (if you want to call it that) was about those who are not willing to try to figure out how to do something on their own either by experimenting or just asking the artist. I would hope that people would go directly to the artist. Many artists will be very generous with their help.


When we newbies see a purple we like are we suppose to buy every purple out there? Have you ever tried to match the purple in a bead to the numerous purples available? And even if we get the right one we aren't going to get the same effect so how do we know if that cool streaky stuff is technique or just a trait of the purple used?

I have tried NUMEROUS times to match the purple (and many other colors) in a bead to the colors of glass that are available. And, while doing that, I have learned a tremendous amount. Sometimes, I have taken photos into glass stores and stared at the glass, trying to figure out which one I need. Sometimes I guess correctly, sometimes not. But I always learn something. After enough time on the torch and practice, you will get to the point where you will know if the streaky effect is from the glass or if it is a special technique. Yes, I know, no one wants to hear that it all boils down to "Practice and time", but that is the reality.
What is the saying? Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. The same holds true here. If I give you a bead recipe, you will be able to make that bead. If I give you enough information that you will be able to eventually figure out the recipe for that bead on your own, think of how many more recipes you will learn on your way to the one you wanted. And they will be your recipes!! Chances are good that they will better than any recipe I could give you.


Heck if it makes you mad I'm sorry, but I'm going to ask when I want to know. Feel free to decline.
And, she is right. Why call it show and tell if nobody is going to tell anything?

I am not mad about anything! I believe that "disheartened" was the term I used. I think it is sad that some folks will not expend the effort to experiment and learn. Note I said "some" not "all". Experimentation is how knowledge is advanced.

As far as the "copying" thing goes, I guess if I were unduly worried about being copied, I would never post in the Show and Tell, never sell on Ebay, never take my beads to a show, never join an exchange, never trade and never teach. I can think of very little that I have learned that I have not shared in some way. I have been bitten a couple of times, but I still share. It gives me a great deal of pleasure and I do remember what it was like to be a beginner and not know. LOL! I still don't know most of the time!

I share because I want to, not because anyone tells me I have to. When sharing becomes a requirement of Show and Tell, then it is no longer "sharing" and I will want no part of it.

Just my opinion, not meant to hurt or inflame, just elucidate and explain.

scupltorgirl
09-30-2004, 04:10 PM
I've not seen anger and resentment directed at either Nitro, or her specific question about colors, so I guess the first quoted comment befuddles me. Rather, the thread branched into an issue parallel to the one she mentioned, as threads here on WC often do. And actually, a forum such as this is exactly where glass-world frustrations should be vented. Why not?

I get rather amused at how some people try to twist some of the replies into something they aren't, and then get angry about it, when in fact they are misreading the intent and the direction of the replies. *shrug*

Hi Cole,

I think if you scroll up and re-read the quote that you posted of my post (for some reason the "quote" option is not including it), you'll see that I specifically said it was directed at NitroGal 98's question. Which it was, or it wouldn't be in this thread, now would it?

If a person vents on what they see as a "branch" of a question, perhaps they might want to make this clear to the person asking the original question. The venting that has occurred has been in direct response to the original question, and I know that this same question was asked recently without all of this ensueing posturing and growling.

Many people on WC start new threads to vent their personal and glass-related issues all of the time. Why make it a "branch" of some innocent person's question when you could start a new thread and devote all of focus to the issue?

(I'm happy to be a source of your amusement, even if it is haphazardly placed, because humor is far kinder than anger, and I wouldn't want to upset you. :) )

--Terri

Beth Myers
09-30-2004, 04:27 PM
I've not seen anger and resentment directed at either Nitro, or her specific question about colors, so I guess the first quoted comment befuddles me. Rather, the thread branched into an issue parallel to the one she mentioned, as threads here on WC often do. And actually, a forum such as this is exactly where glass-world frustrations should be vented. Why not?

I get rather amused at how some people try to twist some of the replies into something they aren't, and then get angry about it, when in fact they are misreading the intent and the direction of the replies. *shrug*


This subject has been tossed back and forth more times than I can count.
After a while, people just get tired of expressing the same thing over and over. That's why the last time this went around no one spoke against the grain.
And Cole, you are right on target. WHY waste the energy and make this or any other thread personal. That is very unhealthy and narrow minded, especially after it's been pointed out repeatedly that it is not personal or directed at any one person. If feeling like a victim is your passive aggressive method of operation, you will not be successful in a forum environment.
This is an adult forum. Forum. Where many different people come together to express ideas and opinions. It is unrealistic to expect everyone to agree with you and your post or for you to agree with everyone else. This is what real life is all about. There are none so blind as those who will not see. And if you can't come onto the playing field with a clear and open mind, maybe this isn't the place you really want to be.
Beth ;)

ValorieCox
09-30-2004, 04:54 PM
please folks, let's get this thread back on track, and not veer into personal attacks or our own sensitivities. Valorie

Cole
09-30-2004, 04:59 PM
(I'm happy to be a source of your amusement, even if it is haphazardly placed, because humor is far kinder than anger, and I wouldn't want to upset you. :) )

--Terri

LOL... actually, if you upset, me, it would probably be amusing (to the rest of WC -- not to me, of course, because I'd be upset)! :D

I should clarify that I'm more amused (entertained is probably the more accurate word. Like a soap opera.) at the whole misunderstanding, than any one person. If we were all in person having drinks, we'd all understand each other (because we could see facial expressions, hear voice intonations, etc.), be in agreement, and be happy! :D I'm really not seeing a lot of disagreement here... just some misunderstanding about the intents of others.

Schermo
09-30-2004, 06:09 PM
Well, this has pretty much hurt my feelings.

Lisa,

I am sorry if this thread has hurt your feelings, and if I had any part in that. My post wasn't directed at you, and I guess I didn't state that clearly enough when I said I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone in particular. I mentioned that specifically so people would understand that I wasn't responding to your initial question (For which I'm also sorry - I get side tracked a lot, and this thread illustrates that fact) but rather I was responding to what Kim Affleck had said about newer beadmakers wanting to take shortcuts.

I don't have a problem with people asking questions, especially a question about glass colors by someone who hasn't had enough experience with the glass to distinguish the specific shades just by looking at them; I can usually tell what color glass was used, but it's because I use them all the time. (And, I'm a color slut.) Asking for the names of colors shouldn't pose a problem, but I think that for those people who work with the glass on a regular basis, you have to realize that it wouldn't necessarily occur to them to tell you the colors because they are already showing a picture of them - it seems self-evident!! LOL :D I hope you will feel okay about PM'ing folks with specific questions, because almost everybody is willing to share, if you ask.

It's one of the things I value about WC! and the ISGB Forum the most - that people are very willing to share and educate others. I think most of the people who know me would tell you that I really ENJOY sharing information about glass beadmaking with others. Sometimes it's difficult to get me to be quiet when I'm sharing what I know. Or think. Or have opinions about..... You get the idea.

I'm glad this did come up, however, because, although I would hope that people wouldn't take it personally and feel hurt by it, I think it's important that those who have more experience should be allowed to help guide, mentor, encourage, chide, point out and otherwise be a pest about the things that are going to help you be a better beadmaker. Even those things which are not the fun stuff, like how to get that reaction between those two colors, what tool to use to make the glass do that, and how to get that shape. You have to be willing to take the hard stuff with the fun stuff, and as Beth pointed out, be willing to hear and see with an open mind, if what you are truly interested in is making better beads.

Now, if all a person wants is to just know the steps of how to make that one specific bead, because that's all they really ever want to do, and skip the rest, then I honestly would like to know what exactly about making beads is it that they find interesting and rewarding? Because you can get the satisfaction of creating out of any craft or art form.... and there are a whole lot more crafts out there that give you a follow the numbers approach, that simply doesn't work for beadmaking. In order to continue to get better at making beads, you have to keep at it, and practice, and experiment, and try things on your own, and rack up torch hours. There is no "by the numbers" where glass beadmaking is concerned; For most people, the appeal is the freedom to exercise our creativity and artistic expression.

But, I'm off track again. I'm really sorry if my remarks seem directed at you. They were never intended to be... and I hope that you will continue to be a part of the community, both asking questions and sharing what you have discovered.

Ann Scherm Baldwin

Starleens Studio
09-30-2004, 06:16 PM
Nitrogal,

Only one statement caught my attention. You would like to try more colors but cant presently. PM me your mailing address and I will send you some of the colors you would like to try + a rod of red copper green & a raku chunk. No problem ;)

Starleen

bolimasa
09-30-2004, 06:20 PM
I really understand where Kimberly is coming from. I love to experiment. There is something incredibly satisfying about coming up with something you like on your own! And that "eureka, this is how it's done moment" feels so wonderful. I also find that many of the bead makers I admire the most are the ones who seem like they "work out of the box". Sometimes I think I should quit experimenting so much and just "learn from the books" (actually buy Corina's book). Maybe I would be happier with my work if I just PPP'd the tried and true; maybe more of my beads may come out pretty that way. Maybe I would be more interested in doing this if I sold my beads. I certainly get the impression that the beads that sell the best (on ebay at least) are well executed "standard" styles in nice colors. I count my blessings that I have been allowed this experimental phase with out the pressure to sell. I really, really enjoy the discovery through glass. I love reading everyones tips and techniques, and I love playing with all of them! But I can never make myself use instructions or look at other peoples pictures while torching. Consequently I've had a great time and I've make a lot of fuglies. Who knows, maybe someday I will parlay all those experiments into something wonderful.

Nitrogal78, I didn't get the impression that you were looking for everyones trade secrets, but that some information is always nice. I like it when people give "hints" at what they did, but I don't necessarily want explicit detail. Sometimes a hint about a color or technique really sets me in motion. But if people don't tell, that's fine with me too. That can be motivating too!

It is wonderful that WC beadmakers are so sharing, and it is a shame that there are those "copying" people out there who take advantage of others instructional generosity! I really appreciate all the sharing here!

BTW Kimberly, I really appreciate the amount of sharing you do! It's nice when the established, published beadmakers such as yourself come out and play with the rest of us! (It's also nice that you participate in exchanges, it really adds to excitment knowing that if I'm lucky I could receive one of yours!)

SuzyQ
09-30-2004, 07:16 PM
Kimberly, thanks for explaining more. I actually do agree with you. I am a Professional Photographer and do most of my note card images (my business) using Photoshop. I have numerous new ps users ask me how I did a certain image. I honestly don't mind. But, I do know that each image is different and what I did step by step will never work for any other image. O.K. maybe, but it would be a coincidence. So I give a vague explanation of what steps I took and go in depth with any they are not familiar with. I also know that most of them have no idea what they just asked and when they read my response they find photoshop is so much more than applying a filter or two. And, most of them don't go much further because who wants to spend hours on one image? lol
And the purple thing? I know darn well that even if I identifiy the one I'm in love with right now I may never get that cool streaky thing I did last night because I'm not sure what I did. But, as I spend hours I will find some constants - like bead release does need to be completely covering where you put the bead - and yes reheating and making a bead round after adorning will distort the design - and.....
I think the biggest reason I ask is because it gives me a starting point. The answer is a place to start my journey. It's kind of like picking numbers for the lotto. It is fun to have a reason. And, it's the interaction thing as well. I mean it as flattery when I ask how something is done. I want to put a piece of your wonderful creation in my work. I just don't know what that piece will be but whatever I learn will always be attatched to that awesome purple bead of Kimberly's.
This forum is a great place and you can't begin to imagine how grateful I am that I am not learing everything the hard way. Thank you.

NitroGal78
09-30-2004, 07:39 PM
I would like to thank everyone for explaining more, and apologizing whether needed or not. I appreciate the generousity of the members of this forum, and everything I have learned by that generousity.
Lisa

Lesleyjoy
09-30-2004, 08:02 PM
COMMUNICATION
"Non-Verbal Communication
Studies show that during interpersonal
communication
7% of the message is verbally
communicated
While 93% is non-verbally
transmitted.
Of the 93% non-verbal communication:
38% is through vocal tones
55% is through facial expressions
We are educated to prefer words to
communicate. Therefore, we can overlook
non-verbal signals.
When in doubt experts say to trust the
non-verbal message (what you see).
Words can be manipulated, but gestures are
harder to control."

I think this is why we get into so much trouble when we communicate this way when it would just be lively discussions were we all face to face. We can't help it, we'er just human and this is how we are built.

Mr.Smiley
09-30-2004, 08:04 PM
Good thread... It ended up all nice, warm and fuzzy... Group hug :)

I am a loner. I only have two books on glass blowing. One is a technical type manual on the properties and the other a soft glass marble book. Being into boro, the marble book is not really helpful, but it's a great read. I may get into soft glass marbles some day, but keeping it on the stick is not possible for me right now. I like my toes with out melted glass on them.


This website is the most information I have ever taken in on glass blowing from an out side source. I had access to all the info like every one else, but the magic for me lies else where. I love to figure things out... I love to experiment... I never do the same thing twice... ok well, RARELY and most of the time it was an accident. I don't think I could make a matching set of beads- my ADD is that bad. My view on things is that once it has been done, why do it again? It already exists... Making the same thing over and over again would be work... I'm just not OK with working- LOL.

I have glanced at Passing the Flame over at a friends house. My memory is so bad that I think it just opens my eyes to basic technique and possible new ones. I love looking at other works... it's inspiring to see what is possible. Creative people rock! I've been at this for several years now and am finally comfortable taking other influences in... I have a solid foundation that is mine to build on. I don't feel like I'm stealing from you guys...

Now I'm just rambling... I'll end with thank you all for being here and being you. If I ask something and you don't want to tell... just say so. I may throw something at you and call you a dirty little so-and-so, but that's on me- LOL

I look forward to being a positive influence on this board and in this industry... and to meeting some of you in person!

Now go to the pay it forward thread and have some fun!

!ngridh
10-01-2004, 12:35 AM
BETH I love you sooooooooooo much that if I were a lesbian I would arm wrestle your husband for you!!!!!!!!!! :clap:

I didn't even finish reading the rest of the thread.

CarolinaDreamDesigns
10-01-2004, 07:10 AM
GEEE THANKS Ingridh!!! Now I have to clean the coffee off of *everything*

:D

Martha


BETH I love you sooooooooooo much that if I were a lesbian I would arm wrestle your husband for you!!!!!!!!!! :clap:

I didn't even finish reading the rest of the thread.

Mike E etc
10-01-2004, 10:23 AM
The color for today is... blue

Mike E

Beth Myers
10-01-2004, 01:25 PM
ROFLMAO!!
Oh Dear Mike, you do NOT post enough!!!
love,
Beth

swamperfolk
10-01-2004, 01:30 PM
The color for today is... blue

Mike E

The word for today is "Recidivism"
Tomorrow's word is "ersatz"

Yesterday's word was....... I forget

Steph'sBeadCorner
10-03-2004, 11:47 AM
I can understand how Lisa felt put on the spot, since the f/u comments were put in her thread. And thank you Lisa for clarifying your thoughts, since I think it helps us to understand one another better. There are alot more colors out there today, than before.

This thread stayed positive and just goes to show what wonderful communicators and individuals WC has.

I remember as a student, when I'd ask a question, the teacher didn't always provide a ready answer, she would ask another question. Only because she wanted me to learn a process.

The success of this process means that the student becomes more independent and it will be MORE helpful for any question they might have in the future.

AS a newbie, I realize how fortunate I am to have so much information at hand. My learning curve to certain styles and techniques has been much shorter than for someone who started without the information available today.

The one thing it doesn't give me, is the knowledge I learn by actually doing it. The "feel" of a balanced bead in my hand. Knowing where the heat of the bead is and creating the perfect width stringer. Just to name a few basic things. This type of learning is accomplished by practice and more practice.

Are we spoiled.. :D Definately.

So, thank you to all of the wonderful teachers and artists. For sharing the knowledge that you have. I promise to use that knowledge at the torch and continue to practice and experiment so that I can build my knowledge base of experience.

Steph

MariJohnson
10-03-2004, 01:52 PM
I'm also glad to see that this has turned out positive.

:clap: Schermo, Kimberly and Beth (and others) your posts were RIGHT ON. I enjoy sharing and do with my students and the local beadmakers group here in Chicago. I also respect when someone doesn't go into great detail because it's truly their right. That being said, I've learned so much thru the ISGB Forum and WC, and am grateful. I know someone who saw a post on some beads I put up on eBay a long time ago, she took the recipe, made beads that were a bit different, (better, actually) and put them on her website for sale. She emailed me and I loved it, I really admire her for asking how I did it, taking it and running with it, and being open and honest about it. That's ideal... it works for everybody. It sure didn't occur to me to be upset, as she was hopefully inspired by something I did. I was flattered! (Of course a year later I bought an old collection of ISGB postcards at the Gathering, and learned that my original idea had been done years before. OUCH!) Anyway, I hope that I've contributed, I know I sure have tried.

The only time things go wrong on these forums is when we let emotions take over, (OMG I've sure done it!) and then it's like many of us have stated time and again, the written word isn't the same as being face to face. Just meeting other beadmakers you get the vibe.. almost a hum about them, they're creative, they've found something they REALLY love and can be excited, happy, and feel good about. And that's what its really all about. Glass peeps are wunnerful!

Another point was made about making the same beads over and over and I know many artists who won't, and believe me it IS work. I would much rather create new beads, and I do, after I get the chores done, i.e., re-create sets posted on my website to fill orders. My website generates income that supplements our start up on the store, pays for glass and tools, even puts food on the table. I don't know where we would be if not for glass...My DH Keith going thru that whole age 50+ downsizing thing for almost 2 years really brought it into focus. I was proud to be able to help support our family, and continue to feel that way. You do what you have to, don'tcha?

So now, I'll close by saying thanks to all of you, for sharing, for caring and for your friendship. Caint git more warm-n-fuzzy thin that, or somebody'll end up hurling, eh? :D


Mari
:wave:

Beth Myers
10-03-2004, 03:42 PM
Thanks guys! :wave:
We try. :wink2:
Beth

CharleneN
10-03-2004, 09:00 PM
BETH I love you sooooooooooo much that if I were a lesbian I would arm wrestle your husband for you!!!!!!!!!! :clap:

I didn't even finish reading the rest of the thread.
LMAO!!

richsantaclaus
10-04-2004, 02:09 AM
Hi everyone,

I have spent several minutes reading all the posts about the subject (and the ones not on the subject...lol) and I have to put my 2 cents in.

As someone that has been beadmaking for 6 months now - I look at all 3 of the major sections NOT to copy, but to learn and see from the really talented beadmakers (YOU know who you are!!!). Of course I can't tell which color rods anyone has used! I have to ask if I want to learn. Is that stealing someone's hard work? I don't think so. I couldn't even come close to the artist that made the bead or to copy it. I don't know how! I can like the colors anyway - not wanting to copy but use thse colors making my beads at my level - I see nothing wrong with that.

I have fun - that's what it is all about for me. I drool at the showcase pictures and maybe some day with the videos, practice and asking others what colors they used I might make 1 bead that is at their level.

Maybe you talented, experienced and wonderful beadmakers might occationally tell us beginners a bit more in the "tell" section of your posts BUT only if you want! I have nerve enough to ask you and you have the right to tell me nothing...lol.

I still will make beads and continue to enjoy my hobby regardless of what pictures that I see posted on our great site!

Well, I have expresses my point of view. Oh by the way - I want to thank you all again for all of you that have helped me in by quest of making better beads. I have posted some of my beginning beads before and you all were SO helpful in your evaluations and I didn't feel at any point that you were getting after me for doing something wrong - on the other hand, you ALL were so kind telling me what I needed to correct.

Off the soap box I have fallen...lol.

eyeskatermum
10-04-2004, 10:47 PM
Imagine the Doctor who tells the interns that he will not share what he learned from years of doing open heart. Imagine if he tells them it's his trade secrets and they need to learn from trial and error.

But there is also the soul who has worked hours on his new heart pump, tested it, had set-backs and success. When asked how he did it, is he required to tell all or does he apply for a patent on his invention while keeping the "how" a secret.

I appreciate all the information I receive from WC and I love seeing everyones finished worked. I know that there are so many artists who want to just show, and many that will tell. We have both in these forms just like we have both types of circumstances in everything around us. It's the personal choice of each person that makes us unique humans.

We do have a forum in Glass Art where we "tell" by answering questions. Showcase is exactly that, and if the post creator wants to share or doesn't, well that speaks to each persons choice as creatures of free will.

Thank goodness doctors do share their experiences. And if I had the good forture to invent something, I would do everything to protect my work until I had my patent. I'm also glad that we have both, showers and tellers in WC. There is room for both in this wonderful place we all share.

Nitrogal, keep asking questions and keep coming back to see more. You will find that both sides of the issue will help you learn about this wonderful art.

giapet
10-05-2004, 12:49 PM
Could we please get back the to tell part in show and tell? I get all this inspiration from the beautiful beads, but I don't know the colors well enough to figure it out from the photos. Sorry to be a party pooper.

This is a bit off the posting of colors and techniques but I feel I have to say it anyway.

Can we please use a picture editing that COMPRESSES the pixel size of what you post??? Every time I want to see all the pretties people on WC are making lately ....it takes forever on this slow dial-up (only option in my area cept satillite). The pages will stop loading because people are posting pics with huge amounts of pixels (pixel size can be different than the size of the pic).

In todays thread the very first pic is 150,000 bytes or 150KB...this is ridiculously SLOW LOADING for anyone on dial-up. Trouble is this was first saved using a resolution of 150 ppi (pixels per inch) instead of the computer monitor standard of 72 ppi. It would load over TWICE as fast without any compression if it was saved at 72 ppi.

Next if a program that uses compression (most do if the user would set it that way for saving jpg files) was applied to this same pic its size can be compressed down to 18KB from the original size WITHOUT losing any noticable quality on a computer screen. That makes a huge difference for ALL of US on dial-up.

I use a cheap pic editor ($20, Picture Publisher) that has compression in the options when saving a file as jpg. You don't need one of the most popular and pricey programs like Photo Shop or Paint Shop Pro to have this feature available to you.

Sorry to rant like this but I get so discouraged when I want to view the show and tell pages...check it out sometime....right click on a pic and go to properties...it will show you the size of the pic file you are posting. As an example, I'm posting the first pic from today's thread both the original and the one I edited using 72 ppi and 20% compression. Can you tell the difference in pic quality? One is now just 18 KB and the other is 151 KB... a big difference. Trish, please don't take offense, only used your pic as it was the first one in the thread....many post the same way and probably don't realize what it does (or doesn't do...load) to those of us on dial-up.

As an example of someone who uses "proper pic posting etiquette", scroll down to Margaret's pic on this thread. (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220713) Her picture is only 49KB in pixel size but large and vivid for viewing..it loads much faster than some of the smaller ones here because of it pixel size.

You can still post a large pic if you save at 72 ppi. Using compression makes it even better. Please check your programs options....and use them.

Trishki
10-05-2004, 03:05 PM
Please accept my official apology for being a "bit-hog" _ I normally "save for web" on Photoshop at 72 dpi - I must have forgotten this time <my bad> :o Sorry guys! No offense taken by the way_ it is a really valid point. I would go NUTS if I had to wait for those large images to download - and I myself try to be sensitive to people on slower dialup connections. I just forgot this time...