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tammy
10-07-2001, 12:28 PM
I found this kind of interesting. What do you think. Not sure. Are they saying that the colors are Artist grade yet still they replace the pigment to lower cost? I'm not sure. Thoughts
http://www.dickblick.com/zz004/99/products.asp?param=0&ig_id=5056

sarkana
10-08-2001, 10:31 AM
driers and chalk are what is usually added to oil paint to produce student grade oils. there is no way to remove half the pigment from the equation and still have an equally beautiful paint. driers can interfere with the natural drying process of linseed oil, in some cases causing cracks. i don't know if this is an 'artist grade' paint, i think it depends what the 'artist's process is like. but it seems like student grade to me. in most cases, at least in the realm of oil paints, you get exactly what you pay for. which is exactly what this site is saying.

my personal philosophy is: i'd rather do it myself. if i want to thin my paint to make it go farther with driers and additives, i'd rather know exactly what those things are and why i'm adding them. but i'm pretty far out there and make almost all my own materials.

vallarta
10-08-2001, 01:12 PM
As a general rule the more it costs the more pigment is in the paint.

HOWEVER, depending on what your painting and how you plan to paint it...there is lots of room to make cost effective choices.

Example. If you underpaint and glaze...then the underpaint you use might be a cheap grade. Depending on subject. I use acrylics often for underpaintings and then switch to oils when I build up the surface.

If you do ALA PRIMA work I would go for the best. If you do a lot of wet into wet you might use cheaper grades. It all depends.

If your a novice use cheap grades....if your making a masterpiece use best paint you can get.

vallarta

Einion
10-09-2001, 09:23 PM
Marketing double-talk anyone? :D

These might actually be pretty decent paint but they're not oil paints as most people would understand them. What they've basically said is they've removed half the "expensive" pigment (Yellow Ochre expensive, since when?) and replaced it with marble dust and similar, which I see they conveniently describe as a "pigment", hehe.

Calcium carbonate is quite transparent in linseed oil so basically what you end up with is very transparent paint but which has approx. the same body as a full-strength oil might have. I see they don't mention transparency or covering power once...

Einion

tammy
10-09-2001, 09:32 PM
That's what I mean. They make it sound as if they are Artist grade but the process doesn't sound artist grade. The description and what they were trying to convey just didn't make sense to me, so I was just wondering what you though.

max nelson
10-29-2001, 11:51 PM
Can someone shed some light on how much oil to pigment is in a very good grade of oil paint vs. a 'medium' grade. Blick's catalogue shows that this paint in it's top grade is about 50%.
Would this be the same say, in some of the better brands of oil?
Relatively new to oils. Am using some very old combinations of Grumbacher, WN, etc. that I bought 10 years ago and do not like the quality (now) of them. Probably just too dang old. I remember reading that Nicolai Fechin used to put his tube oil on newspaper to absorb the oil before using. I find myself useing a lot of medium to make it flow. I seem to have either too stiff of paint and glob it on or too thin with medium and lose all texture. I have just recently overcome my fear of oils, read everything I can on the subject. Some paintings turn out ok, others don't. (mostly due to lack of expertise, but perhaps, better paints.....?):(

mansuri
10-30-2001, 12:25 AM
Try Lukas Sorte 1. According to ASW they are very famous in Europe and are offering artist grade paints in US for almost
student grade prices. I just bought a sampler which was an incredible deal. Six primary colors (37 ml although the ad says 20ml) at $16.99.

http://www.jerryssale.com/luksor1prema.html

To me they were better then the winton oils I had been using.
My 2 cents FWIW.

sarkana
10-30-2001, 04:15 AM
Originally posted by max nelson
Can someone shed some light on how much oil to pigment is in a very good grade of oil paint vs. a 'medium' grade. Blick's catalogue shows that this paint in it's top grade is about 50%.
Would this be the same say, in some of the better brands of oil?

different pigments and colors require different ratios of oil-stabilizer-pigment. some are probably 50%. other colors much more or less. it depends on the strength of the pigment and its absorbtive properties. cadmiums i can usually load to 75% pigment or more. if i made a carbazole violet (aka dioxazine purple) at 50% pigment, it would literally be too strong to use, it would tint everything on your palette purple. i normally only use about 10-20% pigment for this color. but my point is that it varies a great deal from color to color.

this is what leads many people to make their own paint. if you make your paint in small batches and use it shortly after it is made, there is no need for any stabilizers. meaning you can probably use 80 or 90% pigment if you want to. storing paint in tubes is what makes stabilizers necessary.

Originally posted by max nelson
I seem to have either too stiff of paint and glob it on or too thin with medium and lose all texture.

your paint could be too old. old oil paint loses its adhesive qualities. the oil begins to oxidise and it becomes stiff and unyielding. when your paint gets to the point where you have to use a lot of mediums of solvents to bring it to life, you ought to get some fresh paint.

max nelson
10-30-2001, 09:36 PM
Sarkana..thanks for the info. I understand what you said about the ratio by neccessity being different with each pigment. That helps ..but, would this mean that a lesser grade of paint would have the same amount of oil and substitute a filler with the pigment to get essentially the same oil to 'solids' ratio? Even in the better brands of paint there seems to be much disagreement on 'best'. I have always thought of OH, among others, as being of a professional grade. Yet, after reading previous post there is much discussion on its merits. I checked your site..you obviously have much expertise in the paint arena. I am familiar with the more mundane names for paint and without a reference would not know what I might order. Do you provide a cross references
for say..sap green to your....? color. My painting skills certainly do not warrant all the interest in quality materials, but good materials might help! A skilled artist can make masterful works out of dirt..I would have trouble making DIRT out of dirt.
Max:)

Noble
10-31-2001, 09:46 AM
Hi all,

has anyone used the Daler GEORGIAN paint? I've recently seen it in huge 250mL tubes for roughtly $10 a pop. A limited range of colors, but basically they have the essentials.

I have a tendancy to dribble out small bits of paint because 37mL tubes costing $8-10 each just throw cold water on me.

However, I don't want to use paint that is clearly not good. Anybody?

Thanks in advance for your input :)

Verdaccio
10-31-2001, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Noble
Hi all,

has anyone used the Daler GEORGIAN paint? I've recently seen it in huge 250mL tubes for roughtly $10 a pop. A limited range of colors, but basically they have the essentials.

I have a tendancy to dribble out small bits of paint because 37mL tubes costing $8-10 each just throw cold water on me.

However, I don't want to use paint that is clearly not good. Anybody?

Thanks in advance for your input :)

I have a couple of tubes I bought years ago - they're paint, I use them...they seem to be ok to me. To my feel, pigment is the heavy part of a tube of paint. So I generally judge the amount of pigment in a tube by the weight and heft of the tube. For instance, I bought a bunch of Winton student grade 150ml tubes when i first started painting. Today I use a lot of Utrecht. A 130ml Utrecht tube of the same color weighs almost twice as much as the 150ml tube of the Winton color. I am hoping that is pigment.

Titanium
10-31-2001, 03:47 PM
:evil: Verdaccio -

Heh , heh , or one is using Alumina Hydrate [ very light ]
and the other Blanc Fixe [ very heavy ] , as fillers.

Remember oil is usually cheaper than pigment , but
then when using Blanc Fixe , you don't need much oil.

Oh , the joys of Hand Mulled paint - pigment and oil ,
as stiff as you want it and the pigment retains it's
own qualities [ opaque or translucent or transparent ].

Anyone ever tried a ball mill or an op grinder [ vibratory
mill ] to mull paints ?
Just curious .
Then storing in small containers , with plastic wrap over
the top , later just removing the paste part , leaving
the oil behind .

My Old Utrecht Paint primer has lasted 20 years , like
the above.

Now back to my Artisan [ water soluble ] painting of Jesus Christ.
Titanium
Heh heh ----- Happy Halloween - BOOOOOOOOOOO!!

sarkana
10-31-2001, 04:08 PM
max,

oil paint is an unnecessarily confusing topic. every manufacturer has his own theories and practices which distinguish one paint from the other. old holland is definitely one of the best available commercially, i also like schmincke mussini, david davis, and williamsburg oil paints.

i do not make student grade paints but the process is much as you've desribed. oils can absorb a fixed amount of dry materials and still have the workable body associated with oil paint. this ratio of oil-to-dry material varies a great deal depending on the kind of oil and the dry material in question. student grade paint adds either colorless fillers or cheap color substitutes for genuine pigments. a student-grade naples yellow could contain little or no lead antimony, it might be made of a similar shade of cheap ochre and some marble dust or bentonite. again, these pratices vary a great deal from manufacturer to manufacturer and are closely guarded trade secrets. david davis student grade ("colonial colors") have wax added as the filler, which actually adds a unique buttery texture and matte finish to these lovely paints.

its easy to make a student-grade paint out of the really expensive tube colors you already have. just add some powdered chalk to it as an extender and *presto* you instantly have more paint than you started with.

the current situation of conflicting practices and opinions among manufacturers creates problems for the average artist. fillers or driers can greatly influence the performance of glazes or even the life of a painting. education is the only remedy.

my paintmaking education has come from working with other paintmakers here in brooklyn, my own experiences, and from a few key texts. three books (all available at amazon.com) i could not live without are:

materials of the artist by max doerner
the artists handbook of materials and techniques by ralph mayer
formulas for painters by robert massey

even within these esteemed sources there are differences of opinion and conflicts of interest.

i generally only make single pigment colors, and sap green is a mixture. the good news is you can make it yourself. mix ivory black, phthalo green, and yellow ochre to the desired proportions and you are good to go.

i strongly believe that a love of materials or at least an appreciation of them is essential to painting. be kind to your paint and it will be kind to you!

max nelson
10-31-2001, 05:40 PM
Sarkana...thanks for the info. I guess it comes down to 'buy the best and hope for the best'. It's a lot like the Pepsi challenge, isn't it. This is a very helpful forum and I always learn a lot from all. Max

vallarta
11-02-2001, 06:08 PM
The "SECRET":::::::::

ONE COMPANY DOES NOT MAKE ALL THE BEST PAINT!!!!

In time you will find that WN makes a color you love, but it also makes a color you find lacking. Same with Grumbacher, same with them all.

SECOND SECRET::::

When you learn to limit your pallet to fewer colors than more...and don't buy every "dopy" new alleged color...and stick to the basics you will most likely make better paintings. Try to resist buying....Pomegranat Red...when you already have Puice Red....hehehe...same thing.

THIRD SECRET:::

Try to mix your greens instead of buying 6-10 different shades from various companies. Green is a DANGEROUS COLOR...and applying it without getting the tone and color right will quickly mark a painting as a beginning effort.

FORTH SECRET:::: Instead of buying someone "miracle color" buy instead a canvas board or two for the same money and use it as a support for mixes with your primary and secondary colors. Then mix in each puddle some black and in another puddle some white and spread the range of tones.

vallarta

max nelson
11-05-2001, 07:30 PM
Vallarta..your advice on fewer colors is sound advice. Being relatively new to painting (tried it many years ago and quit) I tried a lot of the colors trying to get that elusive look I was after. When this method did not work, went back to the drawing board and started a serious study of color. Rather than waste a lot of paint on a lot of bad paintings I started making color charts. I have purchased many books on the subject and several videos. Some good, others mediocre and one or two very insightfull. One of the better ones is a used and probably out of print book by Jack Farragaso who was a student of Frank Rielly and eventually became director of that school. The style is somewhat dated, but the methods of altering colors for chroma, value, intensity etc. are just what the doctor ordered for me. There is so much to learn about color one hardly knows where to begin. Just recently I took a workshop at a community college on color theory. The instructor was not very knowledgeable and after seeing some of her work (egads) I quickly lost interest. I DID get something useful out of the one class I attented, however. She taught the class in tempera. Yea, that stuff you used in grade school. Started out with making a color chart. 3 primaries plus black & white. Secondaries, tertriaries and value scale. I had fun just 'wasting' paint for a change. Have been experimenting with it since and am amazed with the range one can get. So after all this experimenting have learned a lot and am resisting adding more colors until I have mastered these. I am in the midst of copeing a Andy Wyeth painting from a mag. I am getting almost his full range of hues and quite pleased with the results. Although, this is a difficult medium to apply and am learning techniques to do so, it is only experimental and not concerned about longevity. Thanks again for your post, all.

Max